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jindianajonz
16-08-2012, 22:29
Like the title says, which units or characters seem like they need a bit of tweaking to get them back on the battlefield, and more importantly, why? Either their rules are outdated/broken, they are overcosted, or the army just features something else that totally eclipses what this unit brings. Also, how would you go about fixing those units so that they become viable again? Not become overpowered/must include in every army, but nice and balanced so that players may start using them again.

Rather than just listing units (which I've seen done in past threads) i'm trying to get a better sense of why they are bad, and brainstorm ideas on how to correct them.

tmarichards
16-08-2012, 22:50
Warhawk Riders

b0007452
16-08-2012, 23:32
As an Empire player... Pistoliers.

Too expensive, or an adjustment to their damage output is needed I feel. A shame as the models look kick-ass and they are such a cool concept.

cyberspite
16-08-2012, 23:38
I would have said glade riders are worse than warhawks, except for the fact they are core so you can build an avoidance strategy around them.

Warhawks need to be better in combat, I see them as a support unit / warmachine, chaff hunters. Probably at least 5pts cheaper, fly through woods with no penalty, 2 attacks each for the riders. Also the option for characters to ride warhawks and join the unit.

Glade riders need to offer a bit more of a threat, maybe 2pts cheaper and glade guard longbows. Run into short range, strength 4 shots, run away. Still flimsy as hell if caught but a much better harassment unit.

Ultimate Life Form
16-08-2012, 23:38
Anything that has 'swarm' in its name and/or rules... for ALL the reasons you have lined out.

TornadoCreator
16-08-2012, 23:45
Chaos Forsaken, they're just far too unpredictable and too expensive to justify pouring points into. Sure, when they work they work well, and they can potentially outdo Chaos Warriors but for significantly less points you can have a unit of Chaos Warriors with full command and Mark Of Khorne, which will outperform Forsaken 9 times out of 10, and the Chaos Warriors are core. With the Forsaken being an unmodelled choice, you'd hope it'd encourage people to convert models, but honestly it doesn't. People would rather make custom Chaos Warriors than have them represent Forsaken, and that's unfortunate.

Nubl0
16-08-2012, 23:55
As an Empire player... Pistoliers.

Too expensive, or an adjustment to their damage output is needed I feel. A shame as the models look kick-ass and they are such a cool concept.

Disagree here, I am finding them pretty good. Not OMG WTF great but decent. Certainly not useless.

Enigmatik1
17-08-2012, 00:02
Warhawk Riders

Seconded. I like the premise and the models. I'd probably field them if I ran WE (I run Ushabti for Ptra's sake in nearly half of my lists) but I'd do so knowing that I'm basically giving away points.

Drasanil
17-08-2012, 00:24
Repeater Bolt Throwers (High & Dark), they're expensive, Rare, and really not all that impressive.

Rolo Ramone
17-08-2012, 00:29
Grail reliquae and the battle pilgrims. It not that bad, but you better take men-at-arms for a cheaper option for the same use. So, is a useless unit (I really like the models, must say).

Darkminion
17-08-2012, 07:57
Plague Censor Bearers, man I love these guys, but since 8th edition can't put myself to using them...

D...

Bladelord
17-08-2012, 08:08
Shadow Warriors... yes they have their uses but they are one of our elite infantry and having the same stat line and worse equipment than a citizen and costing more than all of the other elites is just wicked. Giving them WS5 BS5, additional hand weapons and some kind of special rule like hit 'n run or harass on random unit before the first turn starts could fix them.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-08-2012, 08:14
Empire Mortar :D

hawo0313
17-08-2012, 08:55
another for the grail relique an extra 4 pts per model so that your guys get a ward save.. that they already have from parry
so you fall back onto that Ws 2 S 3 statline

NitrosOkay
17-08-2012, 09:18
Elf bolt throwers are probably balanced around not being able to misfire.

Urgat
17-08-2012, 09:35
Didn't we have that topic like one month ago? Same vote as last time, snotlings. Expensive, special slot swarm. 'nough said.

Jal
17-08-2012, 09:53
Snotlings, Warhawok Riders, Centigor, Forsaken,

Makaber
17-08-2012, 10:09
I'm not saying Centigors are where they ought to be, but it feels harsh to lump them in the same category as Snotlings. Centigors at least are a fast unit that packs a significant punch, while I have no idea what anybody could ever accomplish with Snotlings.

Dark Aly
17-08-2012, 10:27
for my armies-
O&G
snotlings; need to be about 15 points, core and regain their old mimic rules for giggles. They could also do with an update to the swarm rules in the MRB but till then I'd be content with my other suggestions.
Squig hoppers; many people don't like them, I think they pretty good but could be a shade cheaper
Boar boys; again I quite like them but a few points off wouldn't hurt
Stone trolls; I think the 5+ save is great but the MR is fairly pointless unless you playing against a fire wizard.

Empire
Pistoliers; Like squiq hoppers I don't think they're that bad but are a bit costly for what they do (redirectors, hinderance, chaff)
Swordsmen; too costly a point drop is needed IMHO
Handgunners/ crossbowmen; again too many points
Mortar; a return to S3 OR 75 points would be more appropriate (the latter would be best I think)

Dwarfs
Flame cannon; needs to either move and shoot or a range increase as well as a significant price drop
Gyro; needs a rewrite with 8th ed in mind from the ground up I feel
Slayers; A better damage out put verses monsters, monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry so dwarves do not have to rely on cannons quite so much
Iron breakers; A slight points drop

Vamps
I'm very happy with the internal and external balance and I can't think of any units I don't use on at least an occaisonal basis (yes even fell bats)

WoC
I don't care anymore they bore me so much

Blkc57
17-08-2012, 10:29
For Skaven its Globadiers.....but I still love them! I can't help i with their the cute little gas masks with ears.

Vipoid
17-08-2012, 12:01
With VCs, the only units I'd really include here are Isabella and Krell:

Isabella for being a 175pt tax to make Vlad worth a damn.

Krell for being of dubious usefulness to say the least:

A normal wight king with a great weapon and dragonhelm (for 4+ save) is 100pts. Krell is 205, so you're paying 105pts for +1 WS, +1W, +1I (the latter might be useful, were it not for the fact that he's wielding a Great Weapon :eyebrows:). He doesn't get an extra attack, because that might actually be useful. His axe is interesting, but a bit strange seeing as he has killing blow (or Heroic Killing Blow if he's in the same unit as Heinrich - because we all love having our fragile mage on the front-line with one of our most expensive fighters, don't we?).

If we ever have a thread about the worst items, then I'd nominate Krell's armour. It gives him a 4+ save, and nullifies magic weapons if he makes a save against them. Because, as we all know, a 4+ armour save is the bane of all magic items, and there are so few items that strike at S6+ or ignore armour saves entirely... :rolleyes:

logan054
17-08-2012, 12:23
I actually think its nice that special characters are not auto-includes like with some other books, Krell's only real problem is his armour (but I think a extra attack would make sense), if it was more like a chaos runeshield, a nightshroud or offered better protection he would be much better, but for the points I might as well add vampire who is going to provide me with some magical support. Isabella isn't that bad, I think her only problem is she has to be in the same unit as Vlad for them to get ASF, if it was just on the table then I think she would be a lot more useful, still her healing wounds every turn is rather nice.

Useless unit for WoC, so many.....

Chaos ogres - why would you take them over trolls...
Dragon ogres - They are much better than ogres but are just so damn expensive when given equipment
Chaos spawn - They need a serious rewrite for the new edition and probably shouldn't be rare
Chaos Giant - far to many points
Shaggoth - nice model, to many points
Chaos lord - needs a price reduction
Daemon prince - Its worse than a chaos lord in combat, can have no equipment, crappy gifts, costs a bomb, yeah....
Forsaken - complete rubbish for the points

The book just has terrible internal balance and plays in a very boring way, I've played them since 4th ed, this is the only book that has made me not want to even use the army.

Vipoid
17-08-2012, 12:44
I actually think its nice that special characters are not auto-includes like with some other books, Krell's only real problem is his armour (but I think a extra attack would make sense), if it was more like a chaos runeshield, a nightshroud or offered better protection he would be much better, but for the points I might as well add vampire who is going to provide me with some magical support. Isabella isn't that bad, I think her only problem is she has to be in the same unit as Vlad for them to get ASF, if it was just on the table then I think she would be a lot more useful, still her healing wounds every turn is rather nice.

For me, Krell has a few problems - his armour is terrible, his extra initiative is completely wasted, he costs too much (around 150 seems more reasonable), and if you want him to be at his best, you also need to include a 350pt Lord, who must join Krell on the front line.

I also agree that Isabella should really only have to be in the same army as Vlad, rather than the same unit. However, it still leaves a similar problem - she's just too expensive for what she brings. Blood chalice is quite nice, but it's nothing amazing (especially since you can basically do the same with the LotV Lore attribute), and certainly not worth it when mounted on a 175pt vampire who brings very little else (Lv1 caster, no special weapon, and armour that may as well be painted on). If she costed ~130pts, I'd have far fewer complaints.

Saying that though, I certainly prefer underpowered SCs to ones like Teclis :p

I'm really only including them on this list because they're the only units in the VC codex that really strike me as terrible.

Dark Aly
17-08-2012, 13:08
some people think ghouls should be on here too, but I think they're good (certainly with re-rolls to hit).

Gary wyper
17-08-2012, 13:26
cant disagree more with tom I love my warhawk riders
i would say glade guard scouts,why would i pay more points to lose my s4bow?
Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

Morax
17-08-2012, 13:27
I'll focus on the armies I play.

Deamons of Chaos - Plague bearers and Nurglings. The Plague bearers have become the laughing stock of Deamons core since the onset of 8th. The removal of taking a regen save and a ward save together for the same wound has taken their focus, being resilient and out-lasting the enemy without magical support, and tossed it out the window. In order to correct this one could do several things, give them a toughness boost, make them count as defending an obstical, make their regen save better. Any of those would return them to their origional place in the list. Nurglings, well they are a swarm, nuff said.

Dwarves - The Flame Cannon. It's effective range just doesn't work in 8th edition. The rules for flame throwers seemed to want to make a flat BSB rule that could apply to all types of flame throwers to cut down on confusion. Laudable that but it has crushed this warmachine that can neither march to get into position (like just about all other flame throwers), is too expensive to throw away (like skaven flame throwers), and can't stand up in a fight (like salamanders). For the Flame Cannon to be useable it needs to "function like a flame thrower with an additional 10-12" range". Problem fixed.

High Elves - Shadow Warriors. These guys need a focus. Are they a shooting unit or a combat unit? They pay the points cost for trying to be both and failing at both because they cost too much to either. To fix them they need to be more focused on one role, shooting if you ask me, and take a hit in the other to bring their points down. Reducing them to WS4 and taking away the option for extra hand weapons would be a good start. I was tempted to mention the Repeater Bolt Thrower but the problems with that isn't the rules for the model, just the rules for 8th promoting larger and larger units of infantry.

The Empire - Pistoliers. The Pistolier has been a point of contention among empire players since the onset of 8th eddition. Some love them and some hate them. I still hold that those who fall in the former camp and holding on to past glories that once belonged to these beloved hot heads. I have two units my self that date from the heady days of 5th eddition when they went careening around the battlefield. The problem with their current eddition is the advent of hordes has taken away their punch, leaving them as redirectors and speed bumps. As a speed bump the are just too expensive. As a redirector they are just too unreliable. I would suggest giving them a 1 point boost in leadership and call it a day. Rallying on a 9 with a musician would be perfect for this role. Leave them at the points value they are at as they shouldn't be throw away units except in an emergency. I was tempted to say the mortar but the new empire book is designed as a combined arms army, when the mortar is combined with a death wizard with soul blight or a shadow wizard with enfeebling foe, it still does scary things.

For the rest of the armies I play, I can find a use for just about every thing in them. It may not be perfect but they are far from useless.

T10
17-08-2012, 14:07
Warhawk Riders

While I can think of a number of units that are not very good, warhawk riders always trumps them as being worse.

I'm discounting the Birdmen RoR as they're not part of the core army lists.

-T10

Guanyin
17-08-2012, 14:10
I'll focus on the armies I play.
High Elves - Shadow Warriors. These guys need a focus. Are they a shooting unit or a combat unit? They pay the points cost for trying to be both and failing at both because they cost too much to either. To fix them they need to be more focused on one role, shooting if you ask me, and take a hit in the other to bring their points down. Reducing them to WS4 and taking away the option for extra hand weapons would be a good start. I was tempted to mention the Repeater Bolt Thrower but the problems with that isn't the rules for the model, just the rules for 8th promoting larger and larger units of infantry.


Since when did shadow warriors get a choice for extra handweapon? If they had, it would be an improvement ;) Agree they would be more suitable being a shooty unit

logan054
17-08-2012, 14:21
For me, Krell has a few problems - his armour is terrible, his extra initiative is completely wasted, he costs too much (around 150 seems more reasonable), and if you want him to be at his best, you also need to include a 350pt Lord, who must join Krell on the front line.

I also agree that Isabella should really only have to be in the same army as Vlad, rather than the same unit. However, it still leaves a similar problem - she's just too expensive for what she brings. Blood chalice is quite nice, but it's nothing amazing (especially since you can basically do the same with the LotV Lore attribute), and certainly not worth it when mounted on a 175pt vampire who brings very little else (Lv1 caster, no special weapon, and armour that may as well be painted on). If she costed ~130pts, I'd have far fewer complaints.

Saying that though, I certainly prefer underpowered SCs to ones like Teclis :p

I'm really only including them on this list because they're the only units in the VC codex that really strike me as terrible.

Well, with Krell his initiative isn't completely wasted, he less likely to die from instant deaths spells such as purple sun, if your playing a more defensive army with a coprse cart then he will make use of that I value, the army has a lot of great synergy in it, as he is he is over priced, with tweaking like I said, not so much, now, what I would say is if you play Vampire counts you have have to include a decent wizard as your general, so I don't see your point here, while yes, he does have to join the front line if you really that bothered about the HKB he can at least make himself ethereal, while he is not amazing in combat I think with the right spells he could make the difference between losing a unit of grave guard to crumble. I would personally never use either them, they just fit with the type of list I use, I would however love to find a use for the Krell model, its just so amazing!

With Isabelle you have to look at her logically, a vampire with heavy armour and beguile is 124pts, so you actually paying 51pts for a items that lets you heal a wound to a vampire every turn and then you have the buffs of ASF on both characters and then hatred and frenzy if one dies, she isn't overpriced at all, the chalice is actually useful, while its true you can do that with your lore attribute you can now use it to restore a extra wound something else within 12", be it your terrorgheist, a Wraith, a Banshee, some crypy horrors, a black coach, whatever you want, also it can be handy if you have one of those bad magic phases. In the same unit the two of them are very powerful, not just because of the double ASF characters but also the double beguile at -4 leadership. Nothing wrong with either of them, the real problem is the blender vampire is just to good because he can take ASF as well, this is one of the reasons I miss bloodlines, having bloodlines would solve some of the silly auto-include combos out.


some people think ghouls should be on here too, but I think they're good (certainly with re-rolls to hit).

I actually like ghouls, T4 is nice, lots of attacks, higher initiative (hi purple sun), they are amazing when you use lore of shadow, get rerolls to hit against a unit which has been debuffed to T2 and it gets really messy, just them damn chaos warriors munch them :(

Boreas_NL
17-08-2012, 14:39
I'll focus on the armies I play.
I was tempted to say the mortar but the new empire book is designed as a combined arms army, when the mortar is combined with a death wizard with soul blight or a shadow wizard with enfeebling foe, it still does scary things.

And that leaves you with a 200+ points (depending on the level of Wizard) combination which can still misfire and is only viable if your Wizard has access to the spells you mentioned and manages to get them off... I can see your point on The Empire being a combined arms army, but this is subject to way to many variables (and even more so when considering this is a game of dice)... Having said that, I will remember your suggestion and next time I even take a Wizard with me I'll have a go at this...

For now I stand by my verdict: Mortars SUCK! It wasn't broken, so why 'fix' it (much like 'fixing' your cat or dog, but that can be said for 75% of the 8th edition Empire book)...

Vipoid
17-08-2012, 16:10
Well, with Krell his initiative isn't completely wasted, he less likely to die from instant deaths spells such as purple sun, if your playing a more defensive army with a coprse cart then he will make use of that I value, the army has a lot of great synergy in it, as he is he is over priced, with tweaking like I said, not so much, now, what I would say is if you play Vampire counts you have have to include a decent wizard as your general, so I don't see your point here, while yes, he does have to join the front line if you really that bothered about the HKB he can at least make himself ethereal, while he is not amazing in combat I think with the right spells he could make the difference between losing a unit of grave guard to crumble. I would personally never use either them, they just fit with the type of list I use, I would however love to find a use for the Krell model, its just so amazing!

With regard to the initiative, I admit I hadn't considered Purple Sun and the like, but I still think it's wasted. The point isn't that you have to include *a* wizard it's that you have to include a very specific and very expensive wizard. If it worked with any caster, I'd have no complaints.


With Isabelle you have to look at her logically, a vampire with heavy armour and beguile is 124pts, so you actually paying 51pts for a items that lets you heal a wound to a vampire every turn and then you have the buffs of ASF on both characters and then hatred and frenzy if one dies, she isn't overpriced at all, the chalice is actually useful, while its true you can do that with your lore attribute you can now use it to restore a extra wound something else within 12", be it your terrorgheist, a Wraith, a Banshee, some crypy horrors, a black coach, whatever you want, also it can be handy if you have one of those bad magic phases. In the same unit the two of them are very powerful, not just because of the double ASF characters but also the double beguile at -4 leadership. Nothing wrong with either of them, the real problem is the blender vampire is just to good because he can take ASF as well, this is one of the reasons I miss bloodlines, having bloodlines would solve some of the silly auto-include combos out.

To be honest, I'd say you're the one looking at isabella in the wrong way. :p

yes, she's only 51 points more than a vampire with heavy armour and beguile. However, how often do you see a regular vampire with just heavy armour and beguile? The problem is, they really need at least some upgrades in order to be effective - either to make them decent supporting casters, or to make them strong in combat, or to let them support units with Fearbomb. Isabella can do... none of those. She has none of the fearbomb stuff, so that's out the window, she's a Lv1 caster, with no equipment to boost her casting, her damage output is no better than an unupgraded vampire, and with no option to buy a better weapon, and, finally, she has negligible armour for protection (which, again, can't be upgraded).

You see, that's the problem with just comparing a SC to a normal vampire with similar equipment - you also have to see if that vampire would be useful with that equipment. In isabella's case, the answer is a resounding 'no' - for her cost, she just doesn't do anything that a normal vampire couldn't do better and cheaper. So, now let's look at her abilities:

- Beloved in Death - For me, this is more a reason to hate Isabella, since it basically makes her a tax to give Vlad ASF. And, despite her lack of armour, combat skills etc., she has to be fighting with him on the front line for them receive the benefit. And, in terms of it working for her, I frankly couldn't care less - it would be cheaper to just give a regular vampire ASF, which would require no input from a 495pt Lord (who isn't exactly amazing anyway), and would also allow you to actually give him a decent weapon and armour.

- Blood Chalice - I think this is a tolerable ability, but I just don't ascribe the same value to it as you seem to. Being able to heal your characters is nice, but if you scrapped Isabella, you could buy a Lv 2 and a Lv1 Necromancer, who could heal units with Lore of the Vampires, in addition to casting spells. Now, I'm aware that there are some situations in which a guaranteed wound would be useful, but I just don't think those situations are common enough to justify her - especially considering that her chalice is pretty limited in what it can do. The Lore Attribute can heal any model within 12", the blood chalice can only heal vampires, and only if she's in the same unit as them. For me, that's just too restricting - especially considering that healing is basically all she's good for (aside from the aforementioned Vlad Tax).

Scammel
17-08-2012, 16:19
Heh, Krell has nothing on Bragg. For twice the cost of a Bruiser, he brings nothing but a magic weapon that gives him +1 S and HKB in challenges only. You complain that Krell only has a 4+ armour - Bragg has only mundane light armour.

logan054
17-08-2012, 16:30
With regard to the initiative, I admit I hadn't considered Purple Sun and the like, but I still think it's wasted. The point isn't that you have to include *a* wizard it's that you have to include a very specific and very expensive wizard. If it worked with any caster, I'd have no complaints.

I wouldn't use either of them to be honest because I don't like necromancers :P I'm just saying it isn't as bad as you might first think, keep in mind that its purple sun, pit of shades and curse of badmoon that we both have to worry about, all which are lores you are likely to see, so that in itself does make a massive difference to the increased I value, I think the whole idea is that you use these characters because you like the older fluff and want a themed list rather than someone like techlis who you include because he is broken as hell. This is something I really like about them.


To be honest, I'd say you're the one looking at isabella in the wrong way. :p

yes, she's only 51 points more than a vampire with heavy armour and beguile. However, how often do you see a regular vampire with just heavy armour and beguile? The problem is, they really need at least some upgrades in order to be effective - either to make them decent supporting casters, or to make them strong in combat, or to let them support units with Fearbomb. Isabella can do... none of those. She has none of the fearbomb stuff, so that's out the window, she's a Lv1 caster, with no equipment to boost her casting, her damage output is no better than an unupgraded vampire, and with no option to buy a better weapon, and, finally, she has negligible armour for protection (which, again, can't be upgraded).

You see, that's the problem with just comparing a SC to a normal vampire with similar equipment - you also have to see if that vampire would be useful with that equipment. In isabella's case, the answer is a resounding 'no' - for her cost, she just doesn't do anything that a normal vampire couldn't do better and cheaper. So, now let's look at her abilities:

- Beloved in Death - For me, this is more a reason to hate Isabella, since it basically makes her a tax to give Vlad ASF. And, despite her lack of armour, combat skills etc., she has to be fighting with him on the front line for them receive the benefit. And, in terms of it working for her, I frankly couldn't care less - it would be cheaper to just give a regular vampire ASF, which would require no input from a 495pt Lord (who isn't exactly amazing anyway), and would also allow you to actually give him a decent weapon and armour.

I wouldn't say I'm looking at them the wrong way as I would never use them :P I'm just saying they are not as bad as you make out, Isabelle isn't amazing, she isn't however as bad as she use to be! they way I see is you gain a extra IoN and the ability to keep Vlad at max wounds for far longer through his sword, wardsave and her challice, she still has decent combat stats! its just Red fury is so silly it makes every other option look crap in comparison. Something to consider is a healing potion is 35pts, one use only and at best you can usually get 2 wounds back a game (otherwise you would be dead). Keep in mind also the price if two vampires with ASF, if you take that into account and the super healing potion her stats don't really work out all that expensive! I would say the challice is worth 50pts, the ASF 60pts and then her wizard level for 35pts, so really her stats you only pay something like 15pts.


- Blood Chalice - I think this is a tolerable ability, but I just don't ascribe the same value to it as you seem to. Being able to heal your characters is nice, but if you scrapped Isabella, you could buy a Lv 2 and a Lv1 Necromancer, who could heal units with Lore of the Vampires, in addition to casting spells. Now, I'm aware that there are some situations in which a guaranteed wound would be useful, but I just don't think those situations are common enough to justify her - especially considering that her chalice is pretty limited in what it can do. The Lore Attribute can heal any model within 12", the blood chalice can only heal vampires, and only if she's in the same unit as them. For me, that's just too restricting - especially considering that healing is basically all she's good for (aside from the aforementioned Vlad Tax).

Well if your general is losing a wound a turn, be it combat, miscasts or whatever she is giving that back, you can then use the lore attribute to heal something else which you would have otherwise used to heal your general (or even low level vampire), I can see this being very helpful with units of Wraiths, Varghulfs, spirit hosts, etc. Again I must repeat what I said before, I wouldn't use them in my army, but rather than adding characters that are clearly better than a stock character you would make yourself you are presented with a fluffy option that just adds character to the army. While I agree her chalice is very restricting so are her rules, your going to have her in the same unit as vlad if you include them and as such the chalice works well with how the other rules are written.

As for scrapping her for necromancers, keep in mind a bad magic phase you wont be healing anything, and with the lower stats and problems with have with death and shadow they are much easier to kill while inside a unit, I personally don't like necromancers :P I would rather have vampires in my army, for the points I would rather have baby manfred anyways, then again I love have a vampire with loremaster who isn't nearly 600pts :D

shelfunit.
17-08-2012, 16:36
Dwarf Flame Cannon - everything skaven have, but worse and twice the points.

Vipoid
17-08-2012, 17:31
I wouldn't say I'm looking at them the wrong way as I would never use them :P I'm just saying they are not as bad as you make out, Isabelle isn't amazing, she isn't however as bad as she use to be! they way I see is you gain a extra IoN and the ability to keep Vlad at max wounds for far longer through his sword, wardsave and her challice, she still has decent combat stats! its just Red fury is so silly it makes every other option look crap in comparison. Something to consider is a healing potion is 35pts, one use only and at best you can usually get 2 wounds back a game (otherwise you would be dead). Keep in mind also the price if two vampires with ASF, if you take that into account and the super healing potion her stats don't really work out all that expensive! I would say the challice is worth 50pts, the ASF 60pts and then her wizard level for 35pts, so really her stats you only pay something like 15pts.

Honestly, I'd price her chalice at ~40pts, and the ASF at 15pts. I've no idea how you could price it at 60pts, when standard ASF is 30pts, and doesn't require a 495pt character in the same unit to work. :p



Well if your general is losing a wound a turn, be it combat, miscasts or whatever she is giving that back, you can then use the lore attribute to heal something else which you would have otherwise used to heal your general (or even low level vampire), I can see this being very helpful with units of Wraiths, Varghulfs, spirit hosts, etc. Again I must repeat what I said before, I wouldn't use them in my army, but rather than adding characters that are clearly better than a stock character you would make yourself you are presented with a fluffy option that just adds character to the army. While I agree her chalice is very restricting so are her rules, your going to have her in the same unit as vlad if you include them and as such the chalice works well with how the other rules are written.

But, as I said, I just don't see too many situations when that would actually happen. Speaking personally, my Vampire Lord has been wounded maybe twice in all my games - every other time he's either died outright (from combat resolution or somesuch), or just wasn't injured at all. One extra wound is nice, but (IMO) not worth the price tag.



As for scrapping her for necromancers, keep in mind a bad magic phase you wont be healing anything, and with the lower stats and problems with have with death and shadow they are much easier to kill while inside a unit, I personally don't like necromancers :P I would rather have vampires in my army, for the points I would rather have baby manfred anyways, then again I love have a vampire with loremaster who isn't nearly 600pts :D

To be honest, I don't really see necromancers as being much more difficult to kill than isabella - they're both T4 with 2 wounds, and all isabella has over them is beguile and some armour that might as well be made out of paper mache. In fact, you could even argue that the necromancers are more survivable, since they can happily ride in a bunker, whilst isabella has to expose herself by riding with your general (or whoever you most want healing). I know that it isn't the best comparison, but if either one of those necromancers gets a spell off, then they've matched isabella's healing that turn, and can heal models in units outside of their own.

Regardless, I should probably say again that I don't hate isabella or krell - I just think that they're easily the least useful units in the codex.

As an aside, I'm also a Vampire person - I much prefer them to necromancers. I understand the value and efficiency of necromancers (especially as arcane item caddies), but I prefer it when my wizards can also hold their own in combat (mainly so that i still have a fighting chance if my enemy has strong dispelling).

logan054
17-08-2012, 18:55
Honestly, I'd price her chalice at ~40pts, and the ASF at 15pts. I've no idea how you could price it at 60pts, when standard ASF is 30pts, and doesn't require a 495pt character in the same unit to work. :p

Well because i Included the cost of Vlads as well, no way is it worth 15pts for both! again its meant to be a fluffy choice which is why I don't mind, considering its a fluffy choice I think its fine, I would have personally done it slightly differently but she is far from useless.



But, as I said, I just don't see too many situations when that would actually happen. Speaking personally, my Vampire Lord has been wounded maybe twice in all my games - every other time he's either died outright (from combat resolution or somesuch), or just wasn't injured at all. One extra wound is nice, but (IMO) not worth the price tag.[/quote]

Depends who you play, of course the thing is you don't have to use it on the vampire lord, you can use it on her and I can see people targeting her so vlad loses ASF! I would rather be dealing with one vampire with hatred and frenzy rather than two with ASF, that said I have lost a couple of wounds in a turn due to miscasts, again the point is she isn't useless nor is vlad, they just are not as good as making your own character, you can't please some people, everyone moans about the silly auto-include characters, they change that and then people moan about the specials being useless!


To be honest, I don't really see necromancers as being much more difficult to kill than isabella - they're both T4 with 2 wounds, and all isabella has over them is beguile and some armour that might as well be made out of paper mache. In fact, you could even argue that the necromancers are more survivable, since they can happily ride in a bunker, whilst isabella has to expose herself by riding with your general (or whoever you most want healing). I know that it isn't the best comparison, but if either one of those necromancers gets a spell off, then they've matched isabella's healing that turn, and can heal models in units outside of their own.

Necromancers are far easier, I3, pit of shades, 50% chance of dying, get into combat with him thanks to a fast moving monster and its dead, isabelle on the other hand has beguile and with vlad has ASF with I6, while she's with vlad death becomes even less of a problem because of the ld 10, the only way to easily kill her is in combat but then you have two characters with beguile forcing you to test at -4 leadership, then add in ASF so HE will actually struggle to even get the hits, about the only thing that will do its a monster stomping on her, between her and vlad you have a fair chance of killing it before it even strikes (just add a flame banner to the unit they join). The thing with isabelle is she compliments Vlad far better than Krell does with that silly necromancer and such is very useful if you choice to do that kind of list.

Personally I don't like having deathstar style units like that, some people do and it will work perfectly fine.

Regardless, I should probably say again that I don't hate isabella or krell - I just think that they're easily the least useful units in the codex.


As an aside, I'm also a Vampire person - I much prefer them to necromancers. I understand the value and efficiency of necromancers (especially as arcane item caddies), but I prefer it when my wizards can also hold their own in combat (mainly so that i still have a fighting chance if my enemy has strong dispelling).

I understand the value all to well myself, vampires are just cooler :D

Nymie_the_Pooh
17-08-2012, 19:45
With my Greenskins I will echo Snottlings. There are a couple other non-optimal options, but Snottlings are the only ones I would consider useless. My other current army is WoC and I don't think there is a completely useless unit there. There definitely exists some units that are better than others for their cost, but I can make some use out of all of the options available in the army book. I haven't had an Empire army since sixth but I am a bit surprised people are calling either the mortar or Pistoleers useless. I agree completely on the mortar being subpar now, but I think it still has its uses. That said, I think it's approaching useless. I haven't played against Pistoleers more than a couple of times in the new edition, and each time the player really had no idea how to use them so I can't speak to that, but I am a bit surprised so many people find them useless. I'm not trying to imply that all of the options presented are great ones. They are stinkers. I'm just saying that so far I have found a use for all of the units in my two armies aside from the Snottlings. There may be different options that are better, but that doesn't automatically make another option completely useless in my opinion.

I'm not sure on special characters as I don't take them. I have nothing against them from a rules perspective generally speaking. I like to customize my armies and I always feel a bit restricted in doing so when an option already has a given name and a specific model other players associate with it.

NitrosOkay
18-08-2012, 04:09
Isabella can be made mildly survivable by putting her on the edge of a unit and ensuring all that can attack her is 2-3 rank and file models, one of which will probably be beguiled. She's not amazing but useless isn't the word for her.

Vlad and Isabella are a fun choice though not a serious choice. Obviously if you want to win games they're not where you should look.

Krell sucks too, but if you take a corpse cart you have a chance of letting him use his I5 I guess.

Lorcryst
24-08-2012, 15:44
Definitively Snotlings ... Swarms with all the bad rules for that in 8th ed, moved to Special, and got a 50% increase in points ... all that for a measly shooting attack ... bleh.

But I disagree about Nurgle Plaguebearers and Nurglings ... well, ok, I'm selling my old Nurgling bases to make room, and yes the loss of "ward + regen" hurt, but I find them quite resilient (well, might be my luck with saves).

Von Wibble
24-08-2012, 23:09
Since the OP seems to be actually asking for suggestions on what could fix said units rather than a list here's my ideas

Repeater Bolt Thrower - simply far too expensive for what it does. Far less killing power than any other war machine for the points. Suggested fixes. 1) Add an extra crewman. 2) Multishot pierces ranks in the same way as single shots, and has a -2 save modifier 3) Single shot goes to D6 wounds. That might just justify a 100 pts price tag

Dwarf Flame Cannon - Gains 6-12" range

Empire Pistoliers - Count as havnig 2 hand weapons and S4 in combat

Mortar - Reduced back to 75 pts

Flaggelants - special rule is d6 casualties not hits.

Wood Elves - basically most of the list apart from Glade Guard (even Treekin are poor compared to things like Yhetees - you know, that unit every Ogre player always maxes out ;) ) Short term fix - reduce price of most units by a few points, allow to roll twice in a mysterous forest and choose the result, allow the army to replace D3 pieces of terrain in a battle with mysterious forests. Oh, and glade guard longbows renamed Asrai longbows and given as default to all models carrying a longbow. And Lore of Athel Loren removed with treesinging becoming a free spell (like POD for dark elves) and life + beasts lores for L1/2.

Tomb King heavy horse - Nope, really struggling here. WS3 and spear shield light armour default is best I can do.

Tomb King Scarab Swarms - Enemies in base contact are at -1T. Reduce S of swarm to 1. (I know its a copy of the bat swarm debuff effect, but I think thats they way to go with them).

It Came from below doesn't have to be used uin a game and units can deploy normally.

Ushabti - given S6 base as they used to have with 2 handed (but not great) weapons. Bows an additional option.

Dark Aly - I don't play dwarfs or OG particularly but the Empire suggestions look about right. For Vamps I do think Ghouls are 1 point too expensive and the Coven Throne needs a way to affect non BS war machine fire. Fell bats look like a great unit to me - a 20 point drop can never be a bad thing even if it can't flee.

nurgle5
25-08-2012, 00:11
Chaos Spawn and Snotlings get my vote, both eat into points better spent on much better units.


Grail reliquae and the battle pilgrims. It not that bad, but you better take men-at-arms for a cheaper option for the same use. So, is a useless unit (I really like the models, must say).

The Grail Reliquae is one of the best units in the Brets book! With a 5+ armour save and the blessing of the lady they are amazingly resilient, they've also got Hatred and Stubborn (which is quite handy with the Peasant's Duty and Ld8 to boot).

Dark Aly
25-08-2012, 02:11
Dwarf Flame Cannon - Gains 6-12" range
Fine, back to what it is in the book- just remove the faq and it's good to go. The best sort of solution as it's dead easy.

Empire Pistoliers - Count as havnig 2 hand weapons and S4 in combat
I'd prefer them better at shooting than CC, maybe S4 but keep them at 1A but something to help them hit better at range is IMHO what they need more, would BS4 be too much or justified fluffwise? i don't think so TBH but thay could do with it

Mortar - Reduced back to 75 pts
yep- nice and simple

Flaggelants - special rule is d6 casualties not hits.
wouldn't that make them worse? maybe 2-3 and 4+ results count the combat as a first turn for their flails rather than re-rolls to wound

Dark Aly - I don't play dwarfs or OG particularly but the Empire suggestions look about right. For Vamps I do think Ghouls are 1 point too expensive and the Coven Throne needs a way to affect non BS war machine fire. Fell bats look like a great unit to me - a 20 point drop can never be a bad thing even if it can't flee.

I'd forgotten the coven throne- it really does need something to protect it from range maybe a 3+ ward vs. none magical missiles as they hit the etheral 'steeds? but then the mortis engine would need such a rule too or it would be weird. Also cheaper cost, around 200 would be better i think.

I wouldn't mind ghouls a point less but they can work now so aren't 'useless' as such- just not quite right

Fell bats are great- I use the old 4th ed metal carrion for mine and as they are some of my oldest and favorite models they MUST go in every army :)

In reality though all the 8th ed army books I own are so much better than every other one I've ever had as at least 90% of the options are usable for most games and even those that aren't can still find a place in campaigns

Bob Arctor
25-08-2012, 02:28
The Coven Throne already has a 4+ ward vs everything......

Many of the units mentioned above aren't truly useless (Chaos Spawn, Pistoliers, Nurglings, Plaguebearers, to name but a few) but Flame Cannons and most swarms probably deserve that tag. I'd add Flamers to the list for consideration since they can't really perform any of the jobs they used to be able to now, and are too expensive to just be a distraction unit.

Dark Aly
25-08-2012, 02:53
oops forgot that- i have yet to use one although i have been condidering trying it out, it still suffers from the same reasons as all chariot character mounts though.

Urgat
25-08-2012, 08:38
Many of the units mentioned above aren't truly useless (Chaos Spawn,

Yeah, my friend routinely uses two, and they're an absolute pain for my goblins, I'm always forced to dedicate high strengh stuff that would be much needed elsewhere, just to ensure these two pieces of spoilt meat don't block a flank by themselves just by virtue of standing there. And since they're really not priority targets, it's reaaaaaaaly annoying.

HurrDurr
25-08-2012, 13:44
Warhawk Riders


first reply crit over 9000 /thread

My vote is warhawk/gladeriders/and i wanted to say waywatchers but they can randomly not be worthless...

-Totenkopf-
25-08-2012, 16:43
Forsaken are garbage right now.. BUT, I have a feeling chaos warriors are getting bumped down to one attack making the khorne blender warrior less effective especially if khorne no longer causes frenzy and adds hatred.. This will make forsaken look like a much better choice..

Ushabti suck,, Im so saddened by it too.. Drop them in points, add str and give them bows with the option of a second hand weapon as well..

DaemonReign
25-08-2012, 16:51
I wouldn't mind ghouls a point less but they can work now so aren't 'useless' as such- just not quite right

It should have been the removal of GhoulKin or the +2 to their cost as far as I'm concerned.
Just as the Mortar should have gone up in cost or gotten the reduced Strength.
Not to mention Flamers going up in cost or going down in Strength or getting penalties for Multiple Shots.

Those 3 are all pretty much equally overboard. A shame to insert such bloopers into an otherwise awesome Edition.

Von Wibble
25-08-2012, 19:52
I agree. Too often they are providing units with multiple nerfs when 1 of the list alone would have been fine.

Bob Arctor - Coven Throne has a ward but its rider doesn't. Also the fact it has protection against BS shooting means imo it should also be protected against non BS shooting in the same way (especially considering thats the stuff that actually hurts!).

The reason I mention casualties for Flagellants is that it actually makes it likely you will get the benefits of the martyr table thing - otherwise there is very little point having the 4+ casualties bonus.

Luigi
25-08-2012, 20:27
for me, it's the gyrocopter
I like the model, love the concept and idea
yet on the table it performs really poorly (it's the only template users in 8th edition which still uses partials :cries:)
DRop it in points, remove partial and add strength for its cannon, increase the armour save to a better one, bring back bombs, give it thunderstomp
or ay of the above in combination

Bob Arctor
25-08-2012, 20:46
Bob Arctor - Coven Throne has a ward but its rider doesn't. Also the fact it has protection against BS shooting means imo it should also be protected against non BS shooting in the same way (especially considering thats the stuff that actually hurts!).


Yeah, I'm aware of that. I wasn't trying to argue its effective because it has a ward save, just pointing out to Dark Aly it isn't quite as bad as he thought. Its definitely a bit sub-par and the Lahmian's special ability should work against cannons and stone throwers too like you say.

@Luigi
Any of those things would be nice (except maybe the thunderstomp, don't think it fits the current design). Would be nice if it could use the steam gun or make a bombing run when marching too.

Tony rid
25-08-2012, 21:24
By the new rule of points allowance for Lords then High King Thorgram for Dwarves use a useless model. At 780 points you would have to be playing at least a 3,120 point battle and if you take him then you can not have an Anvil of Doom.

I also find gorges and yhetties are not that great. Gorges are great that they can ambush but people just turn and shoot. And even if you do get into H2H they have an Int of 2 with no armor. Sure they have 4 wounds but they still die to quickly to do any good.

Wesser
26-08-2012, 09:57
Empire takes top place

Mortar. Expensive warmachine that can't kill anything

Pistoliers: Expensive fast cavalry with low leadership that can't shoot or fight in CC.

Harwammer
26-08-2012, 11:21
Gyrochopter isn't useless. Overpriced, maybe, but it has a few unique and VERY useful roles on a dwarf army. Using it for damage or as a speed bump (as many dwarf players seem wont to do) is not wise. Used well a gyrochopter will help you pick up hundreds of points late game.

Graxy
26-08-2012, 12:31
To me thi thrad literallyscreams forsaken and shadow warriors.

Forsaken: So let me get this straight. I can get a model with a lower armour save than a chaos warrior, lower initiative than a chaos warrior, lower WS than a chaos warrior, un unreliable amount of attacks, can be dancede around te able, and are a special choice, and can't have a mark, where as I couldjust buy a chaos warrior with a shield or additonal and weapon for 2 points less andas a core choice. The only thing they have going for them is the 6" movemnt, making them possible re-director. Or you coul have dogsfor 1/3 the price with 1" more movement.

Shadow warriors: Why do they exist? They are quite possibly the worst scouts in the game. They're prtty expensive, come out of special, have hatred, yet the already hav asf (not to mention only 1 attack and no weapon options), have better options for redirecting (in eagles).


I can see why snotlings are getting a fair bit of hate, but they do have a use. Jumping on stray fanatics in a fanatic heavy army. If the release leaves it a fair bit too close for comfort, then 2 snotling jumping on it will destroy it and most likely leave you with a base left for re-directing. A very select use, but a use nonetheless. :)

Urgat
26-08-2012, 12:38
All the units but spawns can be used for that then :p You can use forsakens to do anything another infantry unit does, they're just not as cost efficient ;) In a fanatic heavy army, the easiest way to remove your own fanatics is just to step your horde of 50+ night gobs forward and remove a handful of minis :p Much more cost efficient than using snotlings, that even trigger panic tests now.

nurgle5
26-08-2012, 15:11
Mortar. Expensive warmachine that can't kill anything

They're not as good as they used to be, but I wouldn't go as far to say useless. That large blast template can still tear chunks out of t3 hordes/units, even if it is only s2.


Pistoliers: Expensive fast cavalry with low leadership that can't shoot or fight in CC.

Couldn't disagree more. Even a small unit of pistoliers can unless a storm of fire thanks to their multiple shots; combined with Quick to Fire and the Fast Cavalry rules, they maintain a reasonable level of accuracy and can nearly always shoot.




Shadow warriors: Why do they exist? They are quite possibly the worst scouts in the game. They're prtty expensive, come out of special, have hatred, yet the already hav asf (not to mention only 1 attack and no weapon options), have better options for redirecting (in eagles).

When the rules were written for the High Elf book ASF didn't give you the re-roll to hit. Plus with Hatred they still get the re-roll against units with the same or higher initiative.

Graxy
26-08-2012, 15:31
When the rules were written for the High Elf book ASF didn't give you the re-roll to hit. Plus with Hatred they still get the re-roll against units with the same or higher initiative.

I know that, but really it doesn't make them any better. Think about what's I5+ in the game. Other elves, chaos warriors and characters, all of which will kill off the shadow warriors in combat and recieve very little damage (even other elves since S3 won't be doing much).

I know they were written last edition, but even then , they didn't come anywhere near being as good as pretty much eery other scoutin the game, and the only thing that really made them nearly viable last ed. was the fact that skirmishers were a lot more useful.

Wesser
26-08-2012, 20:36
They're not as good as they used to be, but I wouldn't go as far to say useless. That large blast template can still tear chunks out of t3 hordes/units, even if it is only s2.

Couldn't disagree more. Even a small unit of pistoliers can unless a storm of fire thanks to their multiple shots; combined with Quick to Fire and the Fast Cavalry rules, they maintain a reasonable level of accuracy and can nearly always shoot.



The problem is that you think the mortar can kill T3 enemies, but it can't. Killing less than third of what it hits sucks, especially since that template is overkill against the best and only worthwhile targets namely elves. Ask around. Noone is taking them, and I mean noone. Pidgeoneers and Helblasters does significantly more damage, so there's just no reason to take it.

Pistoliers.... unless they are within three inches they hit on a 6+. Noone in my gaming environment is going to allow them to get that close without getting charged, and they are bloody expensive redirectors. They aint going to kill ****... unless people are just plain lucky. They are just expensive redirectors in the army that have detachments....slap Cruddace

Drasanil
26-08-2012, 21:00
Pistoliers.... unless they are within three inches they hit on a 6+.

Pistols are 12" so it would be with in 6" not three right? Given pistoliers are fast cav seems like it should work rather well.

Liber
26-08-2012, 21:04
Dwarf Flame Cannon. No contest.

nurgle5
26-08-2012, 21:27
I know they were written last edition, but even then , they didn't come anywhere near being as good as pretty much eery other scoutin the game

If you think the unit performs poorly, fair enough, I haven't used Shadow Warriors enough to debate point with you, I just think it's unfair to include a rules anomaly that doesn't really affect the unit as reason for it being useless.


The problem is that you think the mortar can kill T3 enemies, but it can't. Killing less than third of what it hits sucks, especially since that template is overkill against the best and only worthwhile targets namely elves. Ask around. Noone is taking them, and I mean noone. Pidgeoneers and Helblasters does significantly more damage, so there's just no reason to take it.

It can't kill t3 enemies? Does that mean s3 attacks can't hurt t4 or t5 enemies? That is a ridiculous statement. The mortar template is massive, against a 20mm base unit, depending on formation, it has a one in three chance of scoring the maximum amount of hits: up to forty hits (up to twenty eight hits against a unit in horde formation) against a unit. Yes, it is likely that only up to a third will wound, but this is still a high volume of wounds given the amount hits a mortar can yield.

As for it only being good against elves: every single army in the game except Dwarfs can field a rank-and-file unit consisting of troops with toughness lower than four; so how is it only good against elves when it has a similar damage output capacity against nearly every other army?



Pistoliers.... unless they are within three inches they hit on a 6+. Noone in my gaming environment is going to allow them to get that close without getting charged, and they are bloody expensive redirectors. They aint going to kill ****... unless people are just plain lucky. They are just expensive redirectors in the army that have detachments....slap Cruddace

Where is this "three inches" coming from? The short range of a brace of pistols is 6". They are Fast Cavalry, their high movement value combine with the ability to free reform means (if you're clever with your movement) you can get them in range without being in your opponent's charge arc.

Graxy
26-08-2012, 22:48
If you think the unit performs poorly, fair enough, I haven't used Shadow Warriors enough to debate point with you, I just think it's unfair to include a rules anomaly that doesn't really affect the unit as reason for it being useless.


I think I might have stated my point a bit wrong here, and I apologies for that. What I mean to say was that the re-rolls are useful on any other unit in the army, but they're a bit wasted on shadow warriors, sine they are IMO the worst combat unit inthe army, beause of their poor combat ability, so they're effectively paying for something tht's not too useful, making their overall points cost less justifiable.

Or something along those lines, I kind of lost track of my point half way through writing that. I have the shortest attention span known to man :)

Spinocus
27-08-2012, 01:35
Night Runners - 7pts for naked but slightly quicker Clanrats with extra hand weapons and throwing weapons with options for one specific weapons team, slings and champion (no musician or standard)... meh. Oh yeah they get a free move after deploying... double meh. NR's coolest ability requires you to pay the Warpgrinder tax of 60pts but then you run the risk of losing the entire unit due to a misfire/cave-in. A min sized (10) unit of NRs is too small to be effective so you take 5 or 10 more to ensure you have more ranks, increasing the cost and liability factor should the unit perish due to a Warpgrinder misfire. 130pts for min size (10) NR unit that can tunnel but sucks in combat and potentially die before even being placed on the table or 126pts for 7 WS4/BS4/6++ WS Gutter Runners w/standard loadout of poison & slings that can Scout or use the Sneaky Infiltrators rule? No brainer there.

In as far as infantry is concerned Skaven need cheap meat shields (Slaves, Clanrats, Giant Rats) and cost-effective 'killy' units (Plague Monks, Stormvermin, Plague Censer Bearers, Gutter Runners and 'good' weapons teams like the WFT & PWM) and NRs fulfill neither role well at all... which is why nobody uses them!

warhammero
27-08-2012, 02:20
Wood elves. Betwen to expensive and to usefulll i dont need to say more.

Von Wibble
27-08-2012, 10:52
The problem is that you think the mortar can kill T3 enemies, but it can't. Killing less than third of what it hits sucks, especially since that template is overkill against the best and only worthwhile targets namely elves. Ask around. Noone is taking them, and I mean noone. Pidgeoneers and Helblasters does significantly more damage, so there's just no reason to take it.

Pistoliers.... unless they are within three inches they hit on a 6+. Noone in my gaming environment is going to allow them to get that close without getting charged, and they are bloody expensive redirectors. They aint going to kill ****... unless people are just plain lucky. They are just expensive redirectors in the army that have detachments....slap Cruddace

Mortars may be a bit overpointed but the fact is they still have more killing power than a repeater bolt thrower. A drop to 75 points is sufficient. As to not killing much of what it hits, a third of a very large number is still large, and I've found its very rare that a non misfiring mortar fails to hit at least a dozen or so models, and its usually more like 30. Only against chaos warrior focused chaos armies would I say is terrible.

Pistoliers do have 1 thing on ther side compared to detachments - they are a lot lot quicker. If you compare them to most other fast cavalry in other armies they aren't that bad. The problem isn't so much with the pistolier but with the fact they have generally nerfed the abilities of fast cavalry. If march blocking happened automatically for example, or you got (siginificant) bonuses for shooting a unit in the side or rear (eg reroll to wounds frmo side, auto wound from rear, doesn't apply to stone throwers or cannons) then I think pistoliers would be OK.

Rikkjourd
27-08-2012, 11:05
Although technically not a unit in its own right, I would like to give the Empire Mechanical Steed a honourable mention.

IcedCrow
27-08-2012, 13:10
I truly love when people push that mortars can't kill anything for whatever reason (they cost too many points - this has nothing to do with what they can kill; they are only S2 - wounding T3 on a 5 is the same a S3 wounding T4 on a 5)

I remind one of my empire opponents of that often, that he is using what people call a worthless unit and reaming me, as he is removing swathes of my skeleton warriors with his every time he shoots the thing at me. You know... T3 skeletons.

And he laughs. And says the internet is stupid ;)

Mortars are good against certain things, and really not very good against certain things. Used against the things that they are good at (such as lightly armored skeleton warriors) they can be devastating, and often are against me.

"But that's great but skeleton warriors aren't the most common unit on the table" - this is what I often hear as a counter point. That may be true, in your meta. If your meta consists of a lot of highly armored T4 units then yeah mortars are probably not your best tool.

So no... mortars are definitely not one of the most useless units in the game overall. In your meta they may not be desireable, but in other metas they may be gold.

underscore
27-08-2012, 13:22
Night Runners NRs fulfill neither role well at all... which is why nobody uses them!
They're also the terrible old-style models, which doesn't help any. See also the non-IoB Rat Ogres.

Wesser
27-08-2012, 18:30
I truly love when people push that mortars can't kill anything for whatever reason (they cost too many points - this has nothing to do with what they can kill; they are only S2 - wounding T3 on a 5 is the same a S3 wounding T4 on a 5)

I remind one of my empire opponents of that often, that he is using what people call a worthless unit and reaming me, as he is removing swathes of my skeleton warriors with his every time he shoots the thing at me. You know... T3 skeletons.

And he laughs. And says the internet is stupid ;)

Mortars are good against certain things, and really not very good against certain things. Used against the things that they are good at (such as lightly armored skeleton warriors) they can be devastating, and often are against me.

"But that's great but skeleton warriors aren't the most common unit on the table" - this is what I often hear as a counter point. That may be true, in your meta. If your meta consists of a lot of highly armored T4 units then yeah mortars are probably not your best tool.

So no... mortars are definitely not one of the most useless units in the game overall. In your meta they may not be desireable, but in other metas they may be gold.

In the case of skeletons he would have to hit a total of 72 skeletons on average to make back its points. Okay skeletons isnt the juiciest of targets pointswise, but there's usually many of them, and still 72 seems a mighty tall order (and it is).

Mortars ain't useless in the strictest sense. I'll bet Beastmen and maybe elves would be glad to have it. There's just not a single target I can think of where Pidgeon Bombs or a Helblaster won't do more significantly more damage with less chance of blowing itself sky high. In the context of the Empire book I've seen noone bringing it to the table anymore.

But why am I arguing? Bring your pistoliers and mortars each choice of those units is 100 pts that wont do anything, so I guess I should be happy if I were playing against you

Wesser
27-08-2012, 18:32
Although technically not a unit in its own right, I would like to give the Empire Mechanical Steed a honourable mention.

Well...thats more because its sooo silly.

I can see the value of the horse to get pidgeon Bombs into line or maybe fast relocate to a cannon thats lining up a critical shot.

Whether it is worth the crap your opponent would and should throw at you is another matter

IcedCrow
27-08-2012, 18:44
Ah the old "it has to make all of its points back reliably" to be worth something. I understand now.

Phazael
27-08-2012, 19:05
another for the grail relique an extra 4 pts per model so that your guys get a ward save.. that they already have from parry
so you fall back onto that Ws 2 S 3 statline

Except that they are also innately stubborn and 5+ ward against the harder hitting stuff out there. Relique are fine. Questing and Errantry Knights are worse.

Juicy21
27-08-2012, 19:10
Grail relique +1 They are superbad... you get more men at arms _+ a damsel with the prayer icon for less points.... there no where near fine at all!!.. i use them somethimes and then i deploy then 2 wide and grailrelique + 2 pilgrims in busformation.. they can hold up some stuff for atleast 1/2 rounds...

Questing knights suck aswell..

My errants are doing pretty well tho.. 201 points for 9 Errant full command.. aint that bad.. there immume for psychologie helps ... you just have to deploy them well and spearshoot them at something they can kill.

DrMooreFlava
27-08-2012, 20:18
Arrer Boyz......

TheBearminator
27-08-2012, 20:24
Arrer Boyz......

Those seemed kinda pointless even back when I played fantasy. Like ten years ago. And models were dull.

Hashut-Up!
27-08-2012, 20:24
For the three armies I'd play (Tomb kings, Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs) I would have to nominate either of the TK cavalry units on skeletal pony as the absolute worst in any of the books. Fast, light cavalry that can't march or flee and typically won't do any damage either? Just seems to not have a purpose other then redirecting, and even then they're pretty poor at it. To fix them, I'd allow them to both march and flee. This would give them a unique place as the only units able to do those two actions in the TK army and can be supported by fluff too (the skeletons remember their marshal training) and would fix them instantly.

I can't say skaven have a "worst unit". There are some that could use a bit of rules revisions (globadiers, make them explode on their death maybe? Suicidal rat-bombers could be fun to use and would at least allow them to do more then one turn of minimal damage.

Chaos dwarfs I would have to say no unit is obviously the worst. Some could use a tweaking (k'daii fireborn could go up in price a bit and get rid of the T test. They only have two wounds already and are unstable, they aren't that hard to kill at all).

Jagosaja
27-08-2012, 20:57
Cygors, they are a 275 point stone throwers with toughness 5 instead of usual 7 for war machines, is a large target and has a lousy BS1 if firing blind, and all that can save it is MR2. FOR 275 POINTS!!! And it can re-roll failed hits in combat against magical creatures with it's awesome weapon skill 2! On the good side, it can move and hurl rocks, and on misfire it loses a wound (has 5 so no big deal).

Corpse Cart. Sure, it has neat powers, but they moved it to special which just sucks, and most of all it is a chariot with movement value of 4. Way to go game designers! It would be nice if it were rational for a VC army to wait for the opponent to come, but since this is not the case it is utter crap IMHO.

Black Coach. It had usage in the previous edition, to ruin opponents magic phase, and it became ethereal flying chariot very quickly during a game. Now that is all lost and is just an overly expensive chariot. More of a disappointment than a useless unit.

Von Wibble
27-08-2012, 22:15
Try Cygors in SoM games where there are lots of wizards on the table for potential miscasts, relying on wards to save them.

Skeleton horse archers actually are by far the best redirectors in the TK list, with the vanguard and M8 to make sure they are in the right place. Not amazing, and no other army would want them, but they aren't completely useless. "Heavy" horse otoh....

nurgle5
27-08-2012, 23:39
There's just not a single target I can think of where Pidgeon Bombs or a Helblaster won't do more significantly more damage with less chance of blowing itself sky high. In the context of the Empire book I've seen noone bringing it to the table anymore.

There are disadvantages that accompany those higher strength hits. Helblasters and Pigeon Bombs have a significantly shorter range which makes them far more vulnerable as they need to be closer to the enemy to even be used (the mortar having twice the range of either of the other two). Also if an Engineer uses his Pigeon Bomb doesn't he forfeit the use of his Master of Ballistics rule?

Someone over here (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39154) did the mathhammer. Without an engineer a Helblaster scores an average 4.2 hits, 8.5 with one. So against most large infantry units (which are rather typical these days and the mainstay of most armies), the Helbaster will not make much of a dent, scoring, using the averages, 2 to 6 wounds. The Pigeon Bombs will only score 9-12 kills if every single hit wounds, with the average being closer to 6 to 9 wounds against t3 troops and 4-6 wounds against t4 troops before armour saves.

Determining the average number of hits for a mortar is a bit problematic because it scatters, but it has a much better statistical chance of scoring a maximum number of hits than a hellbaster. The pigeon bombs have the same likelihood of hitting the enemy at all, as the mortar does of scoring it's maximum number of hits, less chance if the mortar is accompanied by an engineer. Even if the mortar only kills up to a third of what it hits, that is still in the region of 9 kills, which compares favourably with the the other artillery pieces.
Plus if you have such a problem with the low strength of a mortar consider using them alongside the Flaming Sword, Withering or Soulblight spells.

As for 'earning it's points back' considerations such as panic tests and player psychology must be taken into account, rather than just outright kills. Besides a major benefit to a firebase, not reflected in direct damage output, is influencing your opponent's movement. This is not about whether the mortar is the best or worst artillery the Empire has, but whether or not it is useful, as I have demonstrated it is far from useless.


But why am I arguing?

To attempt to prove your point in a convincing manner, so far you are unsuccessful.


Bring your pistoliers and mortars each choice of those units is 100 pts that wont do anything, so I guess I should be happy if I were playing against you

I am more than happy to continue using units that I can use effectively. Plus pistoliers can be used for harassing larger enemy units, killing smaller units or psychologically undermining your opponent, not just as redirectors.

Maoriboy007
28-08-2012, 00:28
Dwarf Flame Cannon. No contest.
We recently played a game with 4 allied armies featuring nominally useless units (each "bad"army list randomly distributed between players), and the Dwarf Army featured a dwarf Flame cannon that wasn't that bad, its range is pathetic, but it easily wiped out half a unit of Ghouls in one hit..
Other notables were a flock of 9 bat swarms that did well (mainly due to jammy 5+ wound rolls) a DE sorceress on a manticore with the ring of Hotek that survived until the end of the game, 2 Dwarf and 2 DE Bolthrowers that among other things Killed a Giant and a Flying Carpet Wight King BSB in less than 5 shots, a Black Coach that dominated an entire flank, and a non Thorek Anvil that severely injured a Terrorgeist and held the Dwarven line until the end, especially with the charging ability.

Chain
28-08-2012, 03:49
Anything worse or as bad as Tullaris.

Repeater bolt throwers should have a price drop to about 70 points possibly get back it's third wound to.

Kroxigors should cost less or get a stats boost.

Glade Riders, Warhawk riders among other Wood elf units need improvements

Zephel
28-08-2012, 04:36
Repeater Bolt Throwers - Cost is too high, only 2 crew.
Shadow Warriors - Terribly expensive for a very under-performing unit when compared to all of the competition (look at shades in comparison).
Ellyrian Reavers - really surprised I didn't see this anywhere. SPECIAL choice for an overly expensive fast cav with bows? Yeah that's pretty bad.
Ushabti - It's not that the strength of the unit is bad, it's that is suffers from ONE wound a TURN that it can gain. THAT is absolutely horrible. You change it to one per a spell/augment then we can talk, or d3 vs d6. Or just bloody make them cheaper.
Most mounted characters on monsters - This just needs tweaking. Lotta points for a huge liability just to look cool.

That's most of my experience so far, I'm sure there are more. ;)

Morax
28-08-2012, 20:54
There are disadvantages that accompany those higher strength hits. Helblasters and Pigeon Bombs have a significantly shorter range which makes them far more vulnerable as they need to be closer to the enemy to even be used (the mortar having twice the range of either of the other two). Also if an Engineer uses his Pigeon Bomb doesn't he forfeit the use of his Master of Ballistics rule?

Yes he loses the ability to use his master of ballistics rule. If he is equiped with Pidgeon Bombs then he is used as an independant warmachine, not warmachine support. At 42.5 slaves thats about right for a mobile small template mortar.

Someone over here (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39154) did the mathhammer. Without an engineer a Helblaster scores an average 4.2 hits, 8.5 with one. So against most large infantry units (which are rather typical these days and the mainstay of most armies), the Helbaster will not make much of a dent, scoring, using the averages, 2 to 6 wounds. The Pigeon Bombs will only score 9-12 kills if every single hit wounds, with the average being closer to 6 to 9 wounds against t3 troops and 4-6 wounds against t4 troops before armour saves.

Pidgeon Bombs should hit 21 models on a 20mm base unit. That comes to 14 wounds before saves on t3 and 10.5 wounds on t4. That is assuming you hit with them of course. Against 25mm bases you get 9 hits and your numbers drop dramaticly.

Determining the average number of hits for a mortar is a bit problematic because it scatters, but it has a much better statistical chance of scoring a maximum number of hits than a hellbaster. The pigeon bombs have the same likelihood of hitting the enemy at all, as the mortar does of scoring it's maximum number of hits, less chance if the mortar is accompanied by an engineer. Even if the mortar only kills up to a third of what it hits, that is still in the region of 9 kills, which compares favourably with the the other artillery pieces.
Plus if you have such a problem with the low strength of a mortar consider using them alongside the Flaming Sword, Withering or Soulblight spells.

As for 'earning it's points back' considerations such as panic tests and player psychology must be taken into account, rather than just outright kills. Besides a major benefit to a firebase, not reflected in direct damage output, is influencing your opponent's movement. This is not about whether the mortar is the best or worst artillery the Empire has, but whether or not it is useful, as I have demonstrated it is far from useless.

I am more than happy to continue using units that I can use effectively. Plus pistoliers can be used for harassing larger enemy units, killing smaller units or psychologically undermining your opponent, not just as redirectors.

The problem I have with the mortar is that the Pidgeoneer is the point value you would want for the job of thinning incomming units down. Sure the mortar can still be used but it's just not as good as other options.

The Pistoliers on the other hand are tasked for 3 jobs as a fast cavalry unit with a shooting attack, speed bump, harassment, and misdirection.

They are too expensive to be used as a speed bump in a standard formation, unit of 5 with either a musician, unit of 5 with unit champion and repeater pistol, or a combination of the two. 100+ points is just too much to throw away to stop a unit from moving for a turn when you have other options for doing the same job for less than 25% of that.

Harassment, here the pistoliers under preform instead of being flat useless. 12 shots hitting on 5's and wounding on 3's, best case senario, gets you 2.7 wounds before saves. What unit is that supposed to be threatening to? Even warmachine hunters the likes of great eagels will just ignore that and get on with their job, against hordes of infantry it is just even more laughable. That leaves misdirection.

As a misdirector, they again under preform for the point cost. For the cost of 50 slaves you get a 73% chance of rallying after fleeing a charge. If the misdirect a target once, you could have just fielded a detachment of 5 archers and done the job for 33% of the cost. So you would need to be able to redirect units 3 times to make up the usage of points. They have a 72.2^3 or 38.55 chance of doing that, hardly what I would call a reliable use of the unit. Granted they are twice as fast as a detachment of archers, but the archers can be in 3 places at once and also have a chance of misdirecting a unit more than one. I'd call that an even swap for the speed of the pistoliers.

For all three of the pistolier's table top roles, they are either too many points or just not effective enough. Quick fix is give them one of those roles to be good at.

Harassment - Strength 4, 2 attacks in the first round of combat and don't suffer from multishot penalties.
Speed bump - Cost 2-3 points less per model. Maybe make the 4 points less per model and take away the light armor.
Misdirection - Make them Leadership 8.

I'd go with one of the above and leave the rest alone.

DaemonReign
28-08-2012, 22:22
it's that is suffers from ONE wound a TURN that it can gain. THAT is absolutely horrible.

A bit Off the T but in agreeing with this I must say I'm surpriced they haven't Errata:ed this bit to actually be 'one wound per spell' [instead of 'per turn'] since the current RAW just looks like a blooper when you concider how it basically puts the last Nail in the Army (for a lot of people anyway).

DaemonReign
28-08-2012, 22:37
The Pistoliers on the other hand are tasked for 3 jobs as a fast cavalry unit with a shooting attack, speed bump, harassment, and misdirection.
They are too expensive to be used as a speed bump in a standard formation, Harassment; here the pistoliers under preform instead of being flat useless. As a misdirector, they again under preform for the point cost.

Yes!
But what unit can you purchase instead of Pistoliers in the Empire Army that has the versatility of being able to choose role after deployment?
If you need an Harassment/Shooting unit, then sure there are better options - but none that can assume any of the other two roles in the blink of an Eye.
Your 33% cheaper detachment can't decide to use it's high movement and fast-cav rules to suddenly harass something on the other flank, now can it?
So it would seem to me that despite your math being on Point there's a 'net-synergy' (i.e. versatility) that you haven't accounted for.

I am playing the devil's advocate to some degree here. I am well aware the pistoliers require some skill (and perhaps a bit of luck) to use effectively. It is true that you can oftentime just ignore them as 8th Ed is commonly composed ('oh no, I failed an enemy sighted test! and you knocked two wounds off my Horde!') - and yes in the Empire book they are among the worst.
But cheer up! I'd take them in buckets over GW's new Fantasy-version of Flamers! ;)

nurgle5
28-08-2012, 22:51
The problem I have with the mortar is that the Pidgeoneer is the point value you would want for the job of thinning incomming units down. Sure the mortar can still be used but it's just not as good as other options.

The thing is, the mortar is more likely to hit. The pigeons have a 33% chance of hitting, whereas the mortar has a 33% on hitting dead on target, other results still possibly resulting in hits. Both units are equally as likely to misfire. The pigeons have a higher strength, but the mortar template can inflict more hits. The pigeons are mobile but the mortar has a longer range. Regardless of the various advantages and disadvantages either unit has, my point is that a mortar is not useless.


Pidgeon Bombs should hit 21 models on a 20mm base unit.

Yes, apologies for that, a miscalculation on my part.

As for pistoliers, I would agree they could do with an added point of leadership or points reduction, I just wouldn't say that they are useless (not that you called them useless mind). In addition to the roles you've outlined, I find them quite useful for hunting down other fast cavalry and mopping up weakened units in the later stages of the game. They also find use in player psychology as many players are uncomfortable with a bunch of fast cav running around behind their lines.

Warrior of Chaos
29-08-2012, 05:28
Dwarf Flame Cannon. No contest.

Seconded!

I do have to disagree with Chaos Spawn being useless. I would prefer they be a special choice and not eat up points in rare, but I use them to great effect in my area. Them and warhounds have a very valuable niche in the WoC army......Forsaken on the other hand....poor Forsaken. I hope they get fixed because I love the fluff.:(

Zephel
29-08-2012, 08:10
A bit Off the T but in agreeing with this I must say I'm surpriced they haven't Errata:ed this bit to actually be 'one wound per spell' [instead of 'per turn'] since the current RAW just looks like a blooper when you concider how it basically puts the last Nail in the Army (for a lot of people anyway).

Yeah I guess horrible and capitalizing words was overkill. ;) But that was my thought also. When I saw it the first time I thought "oh they must of errata'ed that". Go to check and no, had to double take. Seems like a pretty obvious mistake.

Von Wibble
29-08-2012, 11:28
Chaos spawn has one big thing going or it - effectively a 360 degree charge arc. Makes it very annoying against tomb king ICFB units. Unfortunately the spawn was at its best against harrassment troops like pistoliers - units whose abilities have been weakened anyway thus maknig the spawn worse than it was.

Morax - given I suggested your 1st option for the pistoliers a couple of pages ago I'll go with that! Generally agree with all points given except 1 - I can't see a 3 wound great eagle shrugging off an average of 2.7 wounds since that means it dies more than half the time ;)

Morax
29-08-2012, 20:00
Chaos spawn has one big thing going or it - effectively a 360 degree charge arc. Makes it very annoying against tomb king ICFB units. Unfortunately the spawn was at its best against harrassment troops like pistoliers - units whose abilities have been weakened anyway thus maknig the spawn worse than it was.

Morax - given I suggested your 1st option for the pistoliers a couple of pages ago I'll go with that! Generally agree with all points given except 1 - I can't see a 3 wound great eagle shrugging off an average of 2.7 wounds since that means it dies more than half the time ;)

The 2.7 wounds I showed was against t3 with no saves. The eagle, having toughness 4, would suffer only 2 wounds on average. That he can shrug off. Add in to that I can afford two eagles for the price of that unit of pistoliers and the problem becomes even more compounded.

@Nurgle - Fair enough point on hunting down units late game. Movement 8 with swiftstride is just about as good as it gets for running down fleeing units. I guess if I had to come up with a viable use for pistoliers as they are now I would vanguard them out, march to behind the enemy positions, then hope to run down any units i break in combat on my opponent's turn.

DaMan82084
30-08-2012, 23:48
Plague Censor Bearers, man I love these guys, but since 8th edition can't put myself to using them...

D...

Sorry but I don't agree. They may not be able to run up to most rank and file units but double punch them with clanrats or stormvermin and they are amazing. Even better if you can get them on the flank. Also can take out small knight units with out a problem.

smileyface
31-08-2012, 01:39
Mortar. Expensive warmachine that can't kill anything

Speaking as an elf player, I would consider mortars potentially the most important targets in an empire artillary battery.

Now, if your local meta involves a lot of dwarf armies, or all heavy cav, or so forth, I can see why you wouldn't like them. Also I'll acknowledge they might be a bit pricey, but anything that can make some opponent think "I have to take that out" is not useless.

Jezbot
31-08-2012, 10:00
Yes!
But what unit can you purchase instead of Pistoliers in the Empire Army that has the versatility of being able to choose role after deployment?
If you need an Harassment/Shooting unit, then sure there are better options - but none that can assume any of the other two roles in the blink of an Eye.
Your 33% cheaper detachment can't decide to use it's high movement and fast-cav rules to suddenly harass something on the other flank, now can it?
So it would seem to me that despite your math being on Point there's a 'net-synergy' (i.e. versatility) that you haven't accounted for.

The trick to pistoliers is not to think of them as nuisance shooting or speedbumps or for chasing down enemy units once they've broken. Instead they do all three and can do so in the one game. Basically you march them up in front of an enemy unit, plink a couple of kills, but position so they have to charge you. At which point you flee, then rally, and do the same again thanks to the fast cav rules. This can be enough to delay the enemy's advance long enough for you to gain a decent advantage.

Once this job is done then you move into the enemy's rear lines and chase his fleeing units off the board or try your hand at war machine hunting.


I am playing the devil's advocate to some degree here. I am well aware the pistoliers require some skill (and perhaps a bit of luck) to use effectively. It is true that you can oftentime just ignore them as 8th Ed is commonly composed ('oh no, I failed an enemy sighted test! and you knocked two wounds off my Horde!') - and yes in the Empire book they are among the worst.

Oh, definitely, it takes a little skill and a fair bit of luck (you have to actually get away when you flee, which is likely but not guaranteed, and rally). But the point is that people look at pistoliers on paper and think they can't justify the points for their damage, or for their nuisance value. What they don't realise is you get both, and unlike other nuisance units you don't sacrifice the pistoliers when they do it.

I'd put handgunners and crossbowmen as being objectively worse, to be honest. Unable to deliver anything near the damage they should for their price. In fact, if you look at pistoliers firing at close range compared to handgunners at long range they deliver the same number of Str 4 AP shots each, point for point. Which is pretty significant criticism of handgunners, to be honest, given how little people think of pistoliers shooting, and once you add in the fact that handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

grimnar1031
31-08-2012, 10:10
Plague Censor Bearers, man I love these guys, but since 8th edition can't put myself to using them...

D...
Censer bearers are great, skirmishers, 3 attacks at s5 with hatred and using only 6 (at only 96 pts) of them means probably 8 toughness tests or death, and stubbon within distance of the Furnace. You hit the right unit and over 50% of the time you will walk straight throught them. They also make a great speed bump if need be as well.

Harwammer
02-09-2012, 16:19
I'd put handgunners and crossbowmen as being objectively worse, to be honest. Unable to deliver anything near the damage they should for their price. In fact, if you look at pistoliers firing at close range compared to handgunners at long range they deliver the same number of Str 4 AP shots each, point for point. Which is pretty significant criticism of handgunners, to be honest, given how little people think of pistoliers shooting, and once you add in the fact that handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

And to add to this pistoliers have the movement to be able to get out of a tight spot, whereas if your bs shooting infantry is threatened while unsupported.... well that's them gone!

Wesser
02-09-2012, 16:28
Speaking as an elf player, I would consider mortars potentially the most important targets in an empire artillary battery.

Now, if your local meta involves a lot of dwarf armies, or all heavy cav, or so forth, I can see why you wouldn't like them. Also I'll acknowledge they might be a bit pricey, but anything that can make some opponent think "I have to take that out" is not useless.

When every other warmachine in the Empire army is better at killing elves? Pidgeoneers, Helblasters are all better at killing the Mortars primary target.

Besides I wouldn't ever field anything that didn't make elves feel weedy...wounding elves on 5+? No sir..

Harwammer
02-09-2012, 16:33
Wesser, having better options in the army list doesn't make a unit useless, even if it does make it used less.

nurgle5
02-09-2012, 17:00
handgunners give you nothing other than their shooting...

Handgunners do give you access to hochland rifles though, which are quite nifty for sniping enemy characters. Not overtly great, but it does occasionally give the opponent pause for thought.


When every other warmachine in the Empire army is better at killing elves? Pidgeoneers, Helblasters are all better at killing the Mortars primary target.

Besides I wouldn't ever field anything that didn't make elves feel weedy...wounding elves on 5+? No sir..

We've been over this, Helblasters and Pigeon Bombs aren't better just because you say so. Arguing that the mortar is useless simply because it is strength 2 does not hold weight as this is offset by the likelihood that mortar will inflict significantly more hits. The numbers on wounds inflicted have been crunched in previous posts for reference.


Wesser, having better options in the army list doesn't make a unit useless, even if it does make it used less.

This. Plus it's debatable as to whether the mortar is the poorer choice.

Forgotmytea
02-09-2012, 19:19
Glade Riders come near the top of my list. Horrifically expensive for what they do, they die to a stiff breeze and don't even have the strength bonus that Glade Guard have. I've tried running them in a few different roles from flankers to warmachine hunters to pick-off-the-straggelers(ers?), and every time found that they're just too costly for what little they can do.

Jezbot
03-09-2012, 02:53
Handgunners do give you access to hochland rifles though, which are quite nifty for sniping enemy characters. Not overtly great, but it does occasionally give the opponent pause for thought.

Which was a nice option under the old book, but under the prices in the new book (both the cost of getting a handgunner and then the champion and the hochland) it is just too pricy. Don't get me wrong, I still like it as an option for less competitive lists, but in terms of purely competitive lists it's well and truly subpar.

nurgle5
03-09-2012, 11:04
Which was a nice option under the old book, but under the prices in the new book (both the cost of getting a handgunner and then the champion and the hochland) it is just too pricy. Don't get me wrong, I still like it as an option for less competitive lists, but in terms of purely competitive lists it's well and truly subpar.

Like I said, it's not an overtly great choice. I'm not sure if I'd bring hochlands to a tourney, though tbh I probably wouldn't use handgunners at all in a competitive list, but they're fun in friendly games and can put some pressure on enemy characters (depends on ward saves, regen, etc) which your opponent might find difficult to ignore :D.

Wesser
03-09-2012, 17:31
Glade Riders come near the top of my list. Horrifically expensive for what they do, they die to a stiff breeze and don't even have the strength bonus that Glade Guard have. I've tried running them in a few different roles from flankers to warmachine hunters to pick-off-the-straggelers(ers?), and every time found that they're just too costly for what little they can do.

Hold on

They have reasonable BS and LD and are very fast at M9 and aren't they core too? They also have good WS and Initiative with spears to ensure they arent complete slouches in CC either.

Indeed they are pricey for what they do, but then again so are all fast cavalry this edition. Alright so dark elves and high elves got better value for points, but compared to Mounted Yeomen, Pistoliers and Skeletal Horsemen Glade Riders are very fieldable.

Snake1311
04-09-2012, 12:35
Fast Cav in core is never unfieldable, even if its a few points too expensive.

There is generally nothing horribly bad in core, especially when it does something other core choices don't.

Forgotmytea
04-09-2012, 18:32
Fast Cav in core is never unfieldable, even if its a few points too expensive.

There is generally nothing horribly bad in core, especially when it does something other core choices don't.
I suppose so. Maybe I just haven't used them enough yet to realise their potential in 8th :)

smileyface
04-09-2012, 19:49
When every other warmachine in the Empire army is better at killing elves? Pidgeoneers, Helblasters are all better at killing the Mortars primary target.

"Useless" is a remarkably absolute term. If you evaluate these things as lower threat, that's your business, but I read your mathhammer earlier and thought your assumptions questionable. Personally I think the giant death template is scary, and while that is obviously not enough to make the mortar the best choice, it is certainly enough to stop it being "useless".