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red_drake
18-08-2012, 03:56
I hate to feel like "I just want to have super powerful fliers too", but since 6th edition came out ive been feeling like I want a flier or two (or 6 :D) in my army.
Considering I play majorly eldar and want to keep it that way, (just don't feel like having allies in my list. Chalk it up to personal preference. Even though I have nothing against the rules) I've been considering adding some eldar fliers to my army. (the people I usually game with have already ok'd FW stuff)
Before I make a large purchase from FW, I'd like to know people opinions on the eldar fliers. I know they've been in existence for I think 2 or so editions now, so how do they measure up in 6th?
Do they consistently perform underwhelmingly?
What has been your experience with eldar fliers from FW
Disuss :)

EDIT: I don't have Aeronautica, just IA: 11 I think it is, the one with the eldar corsairs. And the FW FAQ

Hendarion
18-08-2012, 07:18
Nightwing: Acceptable. Fragile, even more than ever, but acceptable due to 2+ Evade. Same points as IA11.

Phoenix: Totally overprived. Far more fragile than ever, can't fire all weapons anymore. For his points, you really need to love the model to field it. Same points as IA11.

Vampires: Acceptable. AV and SP better than ever before (and more than in IA11, but same points). Vampire Raider is just a transport anyway and he will do a superb job with it if you ignore that he got weapons. Vampire Hunter is still a fragile titan killer, especially with so many other flyers around now that can harm it. Love or hate unit. Keep it out of range of other flyers or you'll have to pack him back to your boxes.

Personally I still will field all of them - in apoc games. Imo for normal 40k games they are useless. Maybe the Nightwing if your opponent fields flyers, but surely not the Phoenix. I know one shouldn't compare anything to the underpriced IG-flyers, but IG can field 3 flyers for one phoenix. Big pain in the rear.

stereynolds
18-08-2012, 11:50
Mightwing seems useful to me. Comparitive in price to Dark Eldar fliers, 2 shuiken cannons, 2 lances, 2+ Cover save and Vector Dancer. Whats not to like? Apart from the 67 price tag that is!

red_drake
18-08-2012, 15:51
Ugh the Phoenix is that much?
I have a hard time wanting to use a paper flier that's costs more than a land raider that can't even use all it's guns...

But the night wing... Seems like it would be really good against other fliers with its weapons and vector dancer

stereynolds
18-08-2012, 17:09
Basically the nightwing should be able to do over a transport or monstrous creature a turn. Combination of its speed, firepower and vector dancer.

eldargal
18-08-2012, 17:17
I've found the Nightwing to be fairly poor at killing but very survivable. Others have found it killy and survivable. Personally I'm undecided, I may just be having bad luck but having what is described as one of the best anti-air fighters in the 40k universe take four turns to take down transport valkyrie seems rather poor. Give it Interceptor, drop the price or allow them in squadrons of 1-3 and I'd be much happier*.

The Phoenix is an amazing air-ground vehicle. BS5 with strafing run and two pulsars is grief for most things. Really, really good.

Vampires are really quite good now, on this I agree with Hendariom.


*This is in context of thinking of the Nightwing as an anti-flyer vehicle as per its background. It's actually rather good at taking out ground targets.

red_drake
18-08-2012, 17:17
Not so sure on the monstrous creature :P
But yeah with 2 lances and 2 cannons it should be great at taking out light armour.

I suppose the Phoenix becomes a good anti infantry with the star cannons and night fire missiles,(it can fire all its weapons this way!) but I'm weary on making it any more expensive than it already is...

unknown_lifeform
19-08-2012, 00:47
Aren't there rumours of some more flyer releases for 40k in the near future? I'm thinking of the alleged Lhamia strike fighter? Admittedly, rumours are highly unreliable now days but if money is an issue you might want to hold out for a bit.

red_drake
19-08-2012, 02:40
Lamia strike fighter and moon scythe bomber or something like that?
I seriously hope that eldar get fliers in the next wd update. (you have no idea how much i want a d-cannon on a flyer) i really really do.
But my faith in the massive eldar model list in the roumors forum just recently got A lot less certain. (check my last post in that thread)

unknown_lifeform
19-08-2012, 03:29
Yeah, and come to think of it since pictures from the next issue of WD have already been spoiled you'd think if there were any new flyers in there pictures of them would be floating around the web by now too.

red_drake
19-08-2012, 03:59
We were half promised a flyer wave within a month or two for chaos nids and eldar. Doubt that's gonna happen :)

I'm gonna try and proxy a nightlong or so tomorrow and see how it plays out

Meistro1
19-08-2012, 06:01
Unfortunately Flyers are the 6th edition gimmick units.

Nightwings are great looking models but at well over $100 USD a pop they are definately not worth it IMHO. If your opponent has any anti-air its Low AV and Low HP will mean you're stuck jinking most if not all of the time. Now its quite survivable when jinking but lacking twin-linked weapons means you're not going to be much of a threat snap firing them.

Pheonix is not much better, as mentioned earlier in the thread it has more weapons than it can fire, meaning you're spending points for things you're not using. Its slightly less survivable as the Nightwing when up against any dedicated AA but has twin-linked weapons which will help when stuck snap firing after jinking.

I'd rather spend the money and points on a Fire Storm, its great against AV 10 and 11 flyers and not horrible against AV 12 ones. It starts on the board, can hold troops, and with Skyfire/Interceptor can shoot at a flyer before it can shoot at you.

red_drake
19-08-2012, 06:15
And then I realized the price of a FW night wing....

Question. Is it possible to "de darkify" the dark eldar razorwing? :)

Meistro1
19-08-2012, 06:20
And then I realized the price of a FW night wing....

Question. Is it possible to "de darkify" the dark eldar razorwing? :)

Yes, depending on how handy you are. A quick search should net you a few examples of folks who have done some nice conversions.

red_drake
19-08-2012, 08:09
Not very handy unfortunately. Never used green stuff before.
Although I found one here on war seer even that looks really good and isn't that difficult at all by the looks of it

Hendarion
19-08-2012, 08:36
lacking twin-linked weapons means you're not going to be much of a threat snap firing them.
Two of the same weapon is always better mathematically than one twin-linked version of it. So, really, unsynching the weapons was the best thing Forge World ever did on the Nightwing and Phoenix!
But yea, if you decide to survive by Evading, your flyer is basically disabled next turn. And that's the general problem of AV10-2HP flyers which Eldar got.

ewar
19-08-2012, 10:00
I know I shouldn't, but I'm surprised at the negativity on here. My nightwing is one of my favourite models and I used it for the first time with the aeronautica rules and found it to be great. The vector dancer makes such a difference in game, I kept a vendetta out of the game until turn 4 or 5 before turning the guns on light tanks.

I was using an allied Stormtalon at the same time which drew all the AA fire, as its evade is so much less effective, which gave me time to take out all the opposing AA.

Maybe I'm crazy but 67 quid seems ok for such a nice mini from FW.

red_drake
19-08-2012, 10:25
I nearly have enough money to shell out for a regular GW kit. I'll never find enough for a FW kit that's $100+

Although if I can pull off the razorwing conversion I'll definitely try it out

brightblade
19-08-2012, 19:21
De-darkeldaring a razor wing is easy providing you have spare parts from other Eldar builds. Brightlances cut down fit beautifully where the darklances were and shuricannons undersling nicely on the missile racks. Then reshape the wings by cutting the curved spikey bits off, same with the upper fins. A dire avenger helmetless exarch head for a pilot and bingo! A Nightwing at a fraction of the cost!

If I could work out how to attach a photo from my iPhone, I would!

In game it outflies other flyers and can really bring the pain! Vector dancer is a huge boon for getting into side or rear armour and for the points it is a bargain! Make your own all that is required is a little patience and some confidence!

Edited because of silly predictive text shenanigans!

red_drake
20-08-2012, 00:23
So I didn't get a game in today : /
But I'm going to try and get people to agree to let me proxy one to let me try it out.
Seems like it would rock light tanks and fliers.

Something I thought about as far as anti flyer tactics if you have second turn or get the nightwing on second is zooming it right infront of the enemy flier so it has to move past you then turning around with vector dancer and chasing it around right behind ut

Hendarion
20-08-2012, 09:32
If you get the Nightwing on 2nd, you simply deep-strike it behind an opposing flyer. End of story :p
If you get it on first, you're in danger big time.
Both assuming that only one flyer is being used on both sides... in days of cheap Imperial flyers, sounds unlikely to happen.

Radium
20-08-2012, 10:02
Compared to most Imperial flyers: no, they're not. They suffer from the same problem all other Eldar units suffer from: a mistranslation from fluff to rules. Eldar are supposed to value speed over armour, and tend to evade instead of hold their ground when fired at. Both of these concepts are not represented by the rules at all, but you still pay for it. Still, I think the Nightwing and Phoenix (with Nightfire Missiles) are awesome although horribly expensive, but require some finesse to use.

Hendarion
20-08-2012, 11:49
I wonder, you guys really that often play versus armies where AP4 is of a use for you?

brightblade
20-08-2012, 12:09
Yup! Necron's being the main one but Dark Eldar, Guard and Orks are the usual suspects here! There are marine and chaos marines too but ap4 is certainly useful. I assume that is not the case for you?

Hendarion
20-08-2012, 12:26
No, kinda not. 95% of my opponents are Space Marines or differently coloured variants of these.

brightblade
20-08-2012, 12:48
You do see a lot of that on warseer! I guess I am lucky in that my group has a wide spread of armies with most people having two or more armies. We also have daemons, tau and tyranids. The changes in cover saves have, we feel, really made a difference to the game. We are now choosing weapons with a eye on ap and not just number of shots.

I feel sad for you that you only have marines to play against. If you live in the midlands of the uk come play with us!

Back on topic, the real bonus I found in the flyers is the improved bs over guardians. It does feel odd that some Eldar are bs3. Having two bs4 lances and two bs4 shuricannons on a flyer that is cheaper than a falcon is cool. The shrouding and holosave is great! Loving my nightwing!

ewar
20-08-2012, 19:48
Compared to most Imperial flyers: no, they're not. They suffer from the same problem all other Eldar units suffer from: a mistranslation from fluff to rules. Eldar are supposed to value speed over armour, and tend to evade instead of hold their ground when fired at. Both of these concepts are not represented by the rules at all, but you still pay for it. Still, I think the Nightwing and Phoenix (with Nightfire Missiles) are awesome although horribly expensive, but require some finesse to use.

Why is the Nightwing horribly expensive? I guess you didn't used to use in Apoc when it was worse and cost 250pts... There is no use comparing it to silly undercosted stuff like the IG flyers.

Overall I think the new rules for it are great, it's good at what it does. Even if you have to come on first and suffer a turn of shooting, if someone wants to expend their vendettas on shooting my NW then thats great! I'll suck it up with a 2+ save.

red_drake
20-08-2012, 20:55
What's ap4 on either of the fliers?
In my book the phienix's missles are either ap3 or ap5
Also where are we getting 2+ cover from? Jink + shrouding is only 3+


The fliers I face most often is the doom scythe, with the potential I guess for a single valk/vendeta/storm variant.
I figure having a nightwing as a counter to these would work fairly well

Hendarion
20-08-2012, 21:29
Jink (5+) + Shroud (+2) + Agile (+1) = 2+
Flat Out Jink (4+) + Shroud (+2) = 2+

Missiles are indeed AP 3 or 5, my bad.

red_drake
21-08-2012, 00:53
Where does it say agile? I don't see it in my FW FAQ

Hendarion
21-08-2012, 05:35
Its not included in the FAQ, only in Aeronautica.

red_drake
21-08-2012, 06:06
Ah ok. Don't have that book :)

On the deep striking of the nightwing to counter incoming enemy fliers, how effective is that?
Fliers strike me as large models and I'm not sure how much I would want to deepstrike them into enemy lines.
Do fliers have deep strike protection? (don't have my rule book on me)

Hendarion
21-08-2012, 07:13
They don't have Deep Strike protection (whatever that is). I also wouldn't like to Deep Strike into enemy lines, but if the opposing player is in "a save place", it is surely a good idea to deep-strike behind it to face the rear armour and to outmanoeuvre it that way (no way it will be able to shoot your flyer next turn). Depending on what is nearby, you may decide to deep-strike also into enemy lines, because with a Nightwing you can at least fire this turn (and hopefully kill the targeted flyer) and evade full 2+ next turn to get into saver area.

brightblade
21-08-2012, 11:15
The ap4 thing passed me by too! Oops! Mind you what I said regarding it still applies!

I was not aware of agile! I use the rules and costs from mymeara, is the only change from that to aeronautica the addition of agile? I don't really want to pay nigh on thirty quid for one word!

Hendarion
21-08-2012, 11:45
The only thing you will not find in IA11 and the FW-Vehicle-Update-PDF is Agile. At least for the Nightwing.

brightblade
21-08-2012, 12:46
Cheers, I use the PDF too but it is good to know the most up to date rules.

red_drake
21-08-2012, 16:57
I meant like deepstrike mishap protection :)
Like anything that prevents them from crashing and burning when then deepstrike onto and around enemies. (they have such large base sizes)

EDIT:
I feel like this starts to belong in the tactics forum >.>

For the Phoenix, would it ever be a good idea to upgrade the missile launchers? On one hand you can now fire all your weapons, however is 3 blast bolsters ever better than 6 reaper launchers?

Aegius
22-08-2012, 19:21
One thing I'd like to point out about the pheonix: Even though it can 'only' fire 4 weapons now, it fires them at BS5. Strafing run ftw!

red_drake
23-08-2012, 00:14
Also thinking about the Phoenix weapons - not only can they not fire all their weapons, they have t
3 different roles for their weapons
Pulse laser for tanks and heavy (ish) armour
Missile launchers for heavy infantry
Shuriken cannons for light armor and anti light( ish ) infantry.

If your shooting tanks your wasting the missiles and most likely the cannons
If your shooting heavy infantry your wasting the canons, if your shooting light infantry the pulse laser isn't effective.

Hendarion
23-08-2012, 05:39
Shoot everything into a AV10 vehicle rear. The Phoenix might be a bomber, but his damage-potential to flyers is way bigger thanks to the missiles. Same counts for light vehicles. 2x S5 Heavy 3 is a bad thing for many transports in 6th.

red_drake
23-08-2012, 23:20
I would still use the pulse laser over one of the missile batteries