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Sithlord
18-08-2012, 04:51
Okay first of all this is ehemmm a whining thread :p But I mean no offense though, this thread aside from being a whiner also serve as summary of all these 2 years playing dark eldar who are made by Phil Kelly. So let me explain my experience playing the dark eldar.

So incase you are wondering, dark eldar are actually unique in that they are a 'piratical' armies, rely on speed, low number, low defensive capabilities and should have been 'high' offensive (close combat) attacks. The current codex design have succeed on the first 3, but failed on the last which is bummer. On the 6th edition, it become even more bummer with current fleet rules, which on 'speed' term they have reduce effectiveness. It is indeed as phil kelly said that dark eldar are glasshammer but I would rather said a dull glasshammer as they are lack offensive power.

So that's explain the general, let's see how the meta gaming of competitive gameplay. So let's play where you are bit on warrior stuff, back up by ravager and few reavers and incubi elite. End result? bummer, against horde type armies (ye don't have enough offensive to destroy all of them in single strike, pretty much the unit number you have to deal against them, I'm looking at you imperial guard :) ) , bummer too against vehicle armies (power from pain are useless as you don't get pain token fighting against this type of armies, blood angel and imperial guard... and with even bigger problem when you actually face this army as flyer... the necrons), and also against the armies tailored against dark eldar (yep flamers and lascannon/autocannon spam, you face against this type of dude in all type of wargamings, can't blame them for just wanting to win 'perfectly' against you but it's perfectly ruin the spirit of the game where you are suppose to enjoy the game instead being one of them annoyed... the only facing this dude is to have another armies by not telling which race you are playing against them, and I still don't make them yet). So indeed the only way for dark eldar generally win with any type of army list is when your enemy field in low number units (grey knights being one of them), but the ONLY way to win as dark eldar (I can even said the ONLY LIST to win) is playing venom spam armies. This is one hell of dilemma as dark eldar to win in competitive environment MUST use a venom spam list in order to win (even then you MUST have a damn good luck on those CCW attack rolls! They are just like have S3 against T4 at all times!)

Off with generals and Metas, let's go to unit usefulness list. Minus the special character.
Archon > useful (for a good reason)
succubi > this are pretty shabby, but it's cheap, but still can't tackle those other characters moderate
haemonculus > cheap and otherwise useful for pain token, but little bit bummer in 6th edition as feel no pain take on 5+ moderate
royal court > in 5th useless, in 6th a little bit useful because incubi power weapon no longer kill those 2+, might as well max the number of attacks against them. moderate
Incubi > 5th are greatest, 6th wot the heck... AP3? are you kidding me? terminator win all arounds and only klaivex can kill them :( bit useless now
mandrakes > 6th edition give this guy a big pain instead garner some pain as outflank can no longer assault when arrived, USELESS
grotesque > great on pain token but still take pain on 6th edition with feel no pain 5+, moderate
wracks > same as grotesque, moderate, this also one of the unit to be carry in venom spam list as most people bring them for their T4 (useful)
trueborn > one of the unit that will be carried on venom spam list, useful in them, useless in other type of list (I count useful for purpose of counting them)
bloodbride > owww expensive, high attacks and they are so dead when their transport is gone, useless.... walking? not very good option eh
warrior > same as bloodbride
wych > same as bloodbride
Reaver > one of unit include in venom spam list usually carry by the people, is a top notch unit that can take care most unit in 40k galaxy, provided they are not shot first
hellion > almost same reason as bloodbride, but they have better save at least blarrghhh (useless...)
scourge > moderate unit, would have been best if they are cheaper but we are talking dark eldar in here man... low number count units
beastmaster > 5th a little bit sucks, but in 6th they are better provided they are not shot at first.. moderate in my opinion
ravager > one of unit usually include in venom spam list, useful at anytime as they cheap and good tankhunter
razorwing and voidraven > oucchhh this two flyer dudes, not only very expensive they are extremely weak, even if those single autocannon shot get hit them, you better pray they are not getting those 4+ result on damage table, bit useless now in 6th ( two useless)
chronos > anyone still play this? although useful for garner cheap pain token, this dude are useless when fighting all vehicle armies (where the heck they can kill to get those pain token :( useless in my opinion)
talos > moderate, your basic monstrous creature that are use as beatstick provided they can reach them in first place... bummer...
raider > most expensive transport you ever seen in 40k universe, and also most weakest of all of them. man even a bolter fire can kill them in 6th! useless
venom > this is the only unit that gave a big win to dark eldar, as they are cheaper than raider and same armor value as them. you can field them in large number and still can swathe all those infantry unit with ease...

so let's count the number of useless, moderate and useful.. that will be 9 useless units, 7 moderate unit, 5 useful units (these are unit include in venom list, the only way to win) . So in designing unit, dark eldar are bummers yerggghhh

So conclusion... dark eldar are becoming increasingly weak in 6th edition but that's only because they already weak in 1st place. Phill kelly failed to deliver what he would called glasshammer as he forgot to increase offensive power (most unit don't have them, the only who has it is archon, incubi and royal court). My hope is for future updates for dark eldar (either codex or FAQ if they are wanting it to change it immediately) that the glasshammer style armies can be reach for phil and GW. And as for you guys, is there any counter-argument or some backing argument to what I said? Discuss....

Inquisitor Shego
18-08-2012, 05:19
I am dumping my dark eldar.

I can take that we can't all hide in reserve anymore, it was cheatingly scumish (I still did it)
I can take that we take Str 4 hits when raiders pop. Burning vehicles burn, brah!
I can take that we have no feesable AA beyond Razorwing. We're in the teething stages of the new edition.
I can take that our Raiders and Ravagers and Venoms are hit on 3+ if we move at the speed of sound (barely, but okay...)
I can take AP3 Incubi and AP3 Huskblade. Blasters deal with AP2 just fine
I can take hull points making us all the more delicate, our vehicles die anyway
I can take not being able to hold objectives in vehicles. This applies to all, but not everybody's a small, expensive, T3 5+ band

Can't move more than 6 if you want to disembark. Open topped now useless? Charlie Cocklesworth, fetch the brandy my goodman, we've got a bolly wally balderdash in the pavillion! I say old boy, tom pickles smithe the third killed my butler with a blunderbuss. (This line make any sense to you? Neither does 6th ed for me). Oh, stick webway portal into the dislike part too, and I didn't even use one!

Ah? But you're just another player who wants to do Mech! My imperial guard army was Blob throughout all of 5th Ed. I played foot mobile chaos space marines. I loved the theme of it, and dying faster than Cobra to GI Joe. To me the theme of DE is fast. Dark Eldar are no longer fast and practical. They can be swift, but if I zoom toward and get assaulted and die so fast its ridiculous.

Dark Eldar are a beautiful army. They're a stylish army. They're just.... I hate playing them so much. My army were raider based. That's the idea. Swoop in quickly, kill and kidnap, and leave. Not pansy infantry like the Japanese Army in the end of Battle Royale 2

EDIT - I know this is a whine. Best leave me be. I'm now doing daemons thanks to Raging Heros mantis miniatures :)

ftayl5
18-08-2012, 05:30
This is absolutely incorrect in almost every way.
Incubi are usless? No they just lost a use. They can no longer go and hunt terminators, well so what? They still beat the crap out of everything without a 2+ save and you can use something else to kill termies. Like blasterborn.
You wouldn't use a lasgun to shoot down a tank so why use Incubi to kill terminators? They can still rip apart MEQ's and anything else with a 3+ save without much of a hassle and they still have a good save themselves.
Bloodbrides aren't the best, there are other units that do the same job better, but that doesn't make them bad, it just means that other options are better.

Warriors are not a very good option? Wyches? What!?
Warriors have brilliant shooting. A unit with a splinter cannon in a reaver with racks can rip poorly armoured units up! Orks, nids, guard all perfect targets for massed infantry killing.
Wyches are brilliant. They suffered a bit from overwatch but we have ways to deal with that too, PGL's plus cover = awesome cover save. Or you can charge in a wrack unit (T4) to take the overwatch hit first then charge in the wyches unharmed. They're hardly bad in combat too with a bunch of pistol or grenade shot/s as they assault followed by a bunch of attacks and a 4+ invuln in combat.
Then against vehicles, haywire is just insane. Hitting on 3's at worst and a 2+ = a hull point stripped, a unit of 8 would have any vehicle gone in one round, a unit of 5 would take 2 at most.

Reavers are amazing, they can do a lot of damage with their baldevanes and the option for heat lances is very strong as they have the mobility to get in range and at rear armour and destroy vehicles with ease. Pretty powerful in assault too and good synergy with the webway portal. They're also fast enough to go across the entirety of most boards in one turn.

Hellions are not useless at all, not even close. They aren't awesome but they're still fast and they hit hard, take a big unit with the duke and they're actually very very potent.
Scourge are great, haywire blasters and dark lances add another anti-vehicle option and they're very fast and can get into position easily, they also have ghostplate which is handy and even the stock shardcarbines are good weapons.

Not experienced with voidraven but the razorwing is not at all useless, NOT AT ALL. It is very very vast, hard to shoot down and it can do a hell of a lot of damage to whatever you chose to kit it out with. Anti infantry, vehicles, MEQ's, other aircraft whatever you want. It's very cheap too for what it does.

Raiders are useless?
Raiders are useless? Are you sure you've even read the book!?
Raiders are brilliant. For a pretty cheap cost you get a dark lance (or disintegrator), a very fast open topped vehicle that can be assaulted from, can easily get an awesome jink save and has a lot of other awesome options. Splinter racks as I said before are great, night shields can be useful too.

Take a deep breath, re-read your book while listening to calming music and rather than whining that "almost everything is useless" think about things for a moment and come to your senses.

DE are actually a very balanced and competitive army.

Sithlord
18-08-2012, 05:57
DE are actually a very balanced and competitive army.

since you mention this sentence. Can you tell me what list you are playing on 1500pts? I will give you TWO army list that are very hard to beat if you are not playing the venom spam list.

this 1st enemy army list IG
command HQ (3 meltaguns and banners) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
platoon command (4 meltaguns) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
2 plain infantry squad
2 autocannon heavy weapon team
veteran squad with 3 plasma guns ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
3 vendettas
2 manticores
1 psyker battle squad of 7 men
all this exactly around 1500pts

the other army list blood angels
1 libby
2 assault squad of 5 men (infernus pistol and powerweapons), each ride in razorback with heavy flamers
1 assault squad of 10 men, in rhino (this one fitted with all those infernus pistols and powerfist)
3 baal predator (both fitter with heavy bolter sponson, one of them being inferno cannon)
2 predator (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons)
1 stormraven gunship

and regarding raider is useless, i will say it's still useless.. for plain jerk of 60 pts you get open topped, AV10 all around and single extremely lucky shot of 36" lance to destroy a tanks fighting a chimera which is cost 5 pts less then raider but over the top AV12 front, 2 great basic weapon of multi laser and heavy bolter and also close topped. on same dimension of fighting toe and toe, raider is dead shot by those chimera...

Soupcat
18-08-2012, 06:32
I'm not sure what your talking about, DE are still really awesome. Ravengers are still a steal, razorwings still do a number on infantry, Jetbikes are solid, warriors still are dirt cheap poison shooting, trueborn with blasters are still solid. Jink allows us to save on flicker fields (flyers exempted) and go with night shields, pre measuring and a bit of mental math will cut back on incoming attacks by alot. Wyches while not as great at tarpiting anymore shred tanks and score providing an awesome distraction for a small amount of points. Battle brother eldar means you basically tell your opponent that they will not be casting powers this game while providing a nice force multiplier for your own troops.
Yes you can't move more then 6 inches if you want to disembark from a raider, but we are one of the few armies in the game that can assault from a transport still AND you have a SIX INCH disembark range now, you lost a whoping 2 inches it really is not a huge deal.
To be honest you seem to be making the same mistake people have been making for ages, dark eldar are not an assault army they have always been much better at shooting then chopping.

Inquisitor Shego
18-08-2012, 06:51
I'm not sure what your talking about, DE are still really awesome. Ravengers are still a steal, razorwings still do a number on infantry, Jetbikes are solid, warriors still are dirt cheap poison shooting, trueborn with blasters are still solid. Jink allows us to save on flicker fields (flyers exempted) and go with night shields, pre measuring and a bit of mental math will cut back on incoming attacks by alot. Wyches while not as great at tarpiting anymore shred tanks and score providing an awesome distraction for a small amount of points. Battle brother eldar means you basically tell your opponent that they will not be casting powers this game while providing a nice force multiplier for your own troops.
Yes you can't move more then 6 inches if you want to disembark from a raider, but we are one of the few armies in the game that can assault from a transport still AND you have a SIX INCH disembark range now, you lost a whoping 2 inches it really is not a huge deal.
To be honest you seem to be making the same mistake people have been making for ages, dark eldar are not an assault army they have always been much better at shooting then chopping.

I play solid shooting with my DE, save Beastmaster + 10 razorwing flocks sometimes. The disembarkation is to fly your troops somewhere safe then get them out. Given you now take a Str 4 hit on board, given your raider has WS1 in CC, given a squad that shoots it can assault the occupants who disembark after the str 4 mauling, given the nerf to FNP to those on board, given the improved charge range of your foes, Raiders are flying coffins (much like the nickname given to early WW2 soviet planes). This isn't a whine. This is field testing from an optimist whose hopes have been crushed. Razorwing Jetfighter is good? Its armour 10. Marines and Guard get armour 11/12 airborne. At least we get airborne? its not a massive help to us, really.

Soupcat
18-08-2012, 07:36
First off open topped for a shooting army is still not useless, the fact that you can move more then 6 and shoot everything is huge. Yes over 6 is snap shot only, but that's what splinter racks are for.
Not to mention you get extra range because you don't care about access points.
Yes it hurts when your tranport dies but thats what MSU warrior squads are for, we get 5 bodies, 2 darklight on a fast moving platform for 130 points or a full squad with a splinter cannon and rerolls for under 200, you blow up one there are 4 or 5 more where that came from in the troops slot alone.
The addition of hull points means you are not throwing a full round of shooting at a tank and getting an unlucky string of shaken results.
The razor wing is not fantastic, but while its armor 10 it always will have its 5++ without any loss in firepower and to be honest with smart play aircraft due to the slim turning ratio and mandatory movement will shoot maybe 3 times a game anyways so the need for heavy anti air is over rated.

Inquisitor Shego
18-08-2012, 07:47
Works in theory, Soupcat, I agree. But now we're going slow, and engaging in a slugging match. DE lose slugging matches. Before when a raider popped you got some cover from a crater. You took some S3. Now its S4, we die in droves. You don't gain any extra range from access points (or the lack there of). If you're in your deployment zone and move 6 out, that's still your deployment zone + 6, whether you're in a raider or not. And best of all, now we're all out on the table on turn 1+2 due to the 50% reserve rules, deep strike loves us. Landing in the middle of a raider swarm, or its perifery results in warrior genocide.

I (emphasis on me and my DE) are outranged, out classed, and the awesomeness of my guns isn't helping in attrition. To counter attrition in 5th ed we could play something of a speed game, choose your battle, hit and run, refused flank, last second objective grab with your sole remaining raider limping ahead etc. Now I;m dying faster than ever before. Of course if it's different to you, I applaud. I am happy to see a DE player dancing happy in 6th Ed. For me, this is like being in school... and a new canteen lady has started urinating in the soup. You complain, and she says "well it won't kill you...." She's right, I can eat the pea pee soup and not die. However, it has become a deeply less enjoyable experience for me.

I dare say its become a horrible embarassment

adreal
18-08-2012, 08:08
Dark eldar do have a pretty good shooting game, plus we have upgrades that can put a dent in incoming fire (night shields, flickerfields). We do even better when night fight is happening (gotta love flat out ignoring it). Dark eldar have always been a tough army to play, and now we don't really have much in the way of combat (though harlies are something to look at) but our shooting is better then ever (being able to shoot if vehicle moves 12", move and shoot heavy weapons)

Sithlord
18-08-2012, 08:52
@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort (I really like the last one :) but extremely rare in any cases :( ). Like shego said, theorically correct but you didn't count how many points you spent to make the army list you want and trust me, by the time you make a single dark eldar unit (say 10 warrior with splinter cannon riding a raider with flickerfield, splinter racks and nightshield) you are outnumbered (LITERALLY) by most armies in 40k. and pretty much the firepower that you exactly want, is not there

@shego
second this, dark eldar armies are not for long sluggish battle which is why we have power from pain.... sort of... but the power of pain itself are downright a bummer on 5th, and even more bummer in 6th as even a S6 weapons could just kill those dark eldars. as stated in 1st post , phil kelly FAILED to deliver that GLASSHAMMER style armies (where it means to be suppose strike fast due to substance of glass, do crap lot of damage hence to hammer time and if hit back, they crack too easy...) if I'm seeing it on dark eldar in 6th ed, I see just CHEAPGLASS (strike fast, do no significant damage and die too fast)

@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want :)

And also, I've played this dark eldar for TWO YEARS and know the transition between 5th ed and 6th ed. This experience from veterans
and if you want to know the ONLY list that really work for dark eldar in competitive environment is this (against any armies).

Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

I think this is around 1500pts. Some people would trade couple of wrack into wyches with haywire grenades, or trade 1/2 ravager for either voidraven/razorwing

scapegoatboy69
18-08-2012, 09:03
hmm... seems we're of differing opinions. It feels like 6th buffed my DE instead of weakening them.

Raiders now move 6" further than they used to.
Reaver Jetbikes move 12" more.
Wyches are amazing anti-tank in addition to being alright close combat.
Premeasuring makes nightshields useable.
Jink more-or-less gives all of our stuff free flickerfields.
Allies and fortifications open up options and increase our control over the tabletop.
Beasts are speedier.
Glancing hits not rolling on the damage table makes our vehicles more able to do their job.

Shego, what has your list been looking like? How do you play it? Perhaps we can help ya.

Lord Damocles
18-08-2012, 09:05
@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort

@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want :)
Wow. Way to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree that Dark Eldar suck :eyebrows:

arkirk246
18-08-2012, 09:15
instead of pointing out what the DE units are bad at, look what they are good at????
the transition from 5ed to 6ed hasn’t made DE anymore/less stronger in CC, our speed is still far more superior than any other

i have also have been playing DE ever since the new Codex/models were released, before them it was SM, they are worlds apart in play style, and i have had great success with them 
its true people think DE are a CC army!!! But i like to think of them as a mix of CC & shooting we are good (Not great) at both roles

i play a fairly balanced list with lots of small units, I then gang up on my targets, (don’t put all your eggs in one basket)

TBH the hardest part i find playing DE is having 2nd turn, I would much rather have the 1st turn? but this is now mitigated by the fact it a 50/50 chance to get Night Fight and all DE have the night fight USR, we can have Night shields & FF so not all doom and gloom!!!!!!

don’t go after terminators with incubi? even in 5th ed i never assaulted terminators just used DL against them if you must hold them up with wyches for 1-2 turns

Against CC armies i keep my distance and shoot, finally mopping up the remains with my incubi/grots/wyches,
against mech BA/IG i play a different style (the role is reversed?) i run everything up the field, this allows my wyches/blasters/Heat lances/Grotesques to get to work on the mech line then fall back and shoot the remaining foot soldiers

my list hasn’t really changed from 5th to 6th ed


remember fight the dark elder way................ use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut and if you cant run!!!!!!

Inquisitor Shego
18-08-2012, 11:19
Raiders now move 6" further than they used to

A benefit. But move 6 further to do what? Get closer to an enemy that can mince them in close combat on 3+? Any turn you are moving like that, you are not shooting. DE have always been a race against time army. Any turn you are not hitting your opponent, they are hitting you. If not, they're moving and adapting to your game plan. Preparing. Or maybe those drop pods are descending, or demons summoning. My experience with DE since 3rd ed has always been Turn 1-2 kill what scares me the most. If its still standing, I'm dead. Table them, or they table you. Very seldom a middle ground until 5th ed with the classic turn 5 objective grab, and pray for a 1-2 to end the game.


Reaver Jetbikes move 12" more.

An amazing benefit. But their save dropped. 3+ cover save is gone. They die quicker, getting a cover of 4+. Sure you can decide in the shooting phase when to move, but again appreciate this is a game where people are moving faster, charging further. They're more deadly, but again more brittle. Well I say more deadly, that's a lie. They still do the same damage. Hammer of Wrath? Getting jetbikes into CC concerns me, unless its a guard unit on its deathbed.


Wyches are amazing anti-tank in addition to being alright close combat.

12 points a pop? For something now getting pummeled by snap fire and flamer hits that bounces off of MEQ? That now has to walk to the enemy cause it can't use a web way? It can leap off a raider, but that raider's only moving 6. Then the raider gets popped. Your 12 point wyches take Str 4 hits on a 6+ save. Or maybe you assault a transport. Next turn you've got 10 whatevers staring you in the face. Even guardsmen rapid firing can be a pain to wyches worth twice their points.


Premeasuring makes nightshields useable.

Makes them awful. Your opponent can walk forward 6 and shoot max range with a rapid fire weapon, negating 10 points of wargear. Before, they didn't have that bonus, and there was an element of uncertainty, where foes might lose shooting from a unit entirely.

Jink more-or-less gives all of our stuff free flickerfields.[/QUOTE]

If the Raider moves, when cover saves are just as attainable. When they're not, we had the arrival on turn 2 trick. We don't get jink saves if our opponent gets the first turn, leading to indirect fire, or whatever else obliterating us.


Allies and fortifications open up options and increase our control over the tabletop.

FORTS - Dark Eldar do not fortify. They don't erect an Aegis defence line and sip a cup of tea. I know I'm old school but we were founded on the principal of 3rd Ed. We had a mission! Always attack. Never the defenders. Other people can disagree, and in their own heads they're absolutely right. In my head, my vision of my army, which led me to collecting them is this. ALWAYS ATTACK. The only thing they build is a jenga tower of a planetary population's spleens for the relief force to find, 10 days/weeks/years too late. Lets say we do fortify. What do we buy to protect an army that cannot look after itself in CC, is terrified of flamers (which will find you when you hide in cover). Then there's the cost. 30% cost increase on GW Terrain since the new edition. I know this is not 100% irrelevant, but please guys understand everything I've said so far it my opinion, and my principles. If you want fortifications, go bananas. I suppose Commoragh looks like Emo Stalingrad sometimes.

ALLIES - When it was first said DE helped Iyanden I recall many a DE player feeling that some shoe-horned nonsense only eclipsed by Mortarion losing to Draigo, the Silent King and Dante locking lips at the school disco, and Space Wolves thinking the Red Corsairs are so epic cause they stood a chance of dying. DE should frankly find other DE to be distrustful and only working together in the most dire of occasions :p


Beasts are speedier.

I cannot knock this at all. It has been a huge boon to me.


Glancing hits not rolling on the damage table makes our vehicles more able to do their job.

Likewise, a massive benefit, but with a 4+ penetrating hit from Lascannons, 3+ from AP1 destroying a Raider, and bolters/gauss/sluggas/shootas/shuriken catapults/tyranid blobs being able to rip us to pieces, our survivability was always about speed and stealth. See point one. We move faster. We shoot less. We forgo a turn of shooting to get into a good spot? Doable.


Shego, what has your list been looking like? How do you play it? Perhaps we can help ya.

I really appreciate that Scapegoat. Genuinely, thank you, that's decent of you. I know I'm a negative nancy (my friends would agree). I'm curious to see your input. I've gone from a 80-85% win rate to losing badly. Though part of this has been my mentality. Last 3-4 games I've played, I put my army down and played to lose to get it over so quickly. I am truly hating this edition. All the points you've listed above are correct.

My opponents are

hybrid assault/death company rush Blood Angels + Meph
rhino rush + deathclaw rush + oblit/contemptor/decimator emperor's children
crimson fist turtle + camo cloak + tech marine + TH/SS Termies
Space Wolf Long Fang / Wolf Guard spam

List is usually

Sathonyx
3 x 4 Blasterborn + Venom + SC x 2
3 x Raider + 10 Warriors + BL + SC + Sybarite
3 x Ravager

1500 (just under)

Grampyseer
18-08-2012, 11:42
since you mention this sentence. Can you tell me what list you are playing on 1500pts? I will give you TWO army list that are very hard to beat if you are not playing the venom spam list.



Well here's the problem!! You've been able to identify 2 whole army lists that......wait for it......make the game challenging!!

Should ANYONE expect to field an army that makes ALL games a non contest?


You've dismissed constructive comments, whilst touting your extensive experience with the DE as a reason not to listen.

Perhaps you could try taking some of the suggestions if you're really in the dire straights you claim.

Nubl0
18-08-2012, 12:39
Sorry OP but most of that was complete and utter rubbish. Incubi useless? Using them to hunt terminators in 5th is just as stupid as in 6ths, seeing as they would just bounce of stormshield termies and then get pulped in return you were always better off tar pitting them with wytches. Raiders are still fine, jink save means you can now skimp on the flickerfield if you want and nights shilds are kinda cool now what with premeasuring. Also they have always died super fast, it's no different now. Infact I would say hull points has benefited them seeing as glances do nothing other than strip one, meaning bolters can't take off that precious lance or immobilize you. Oh and they died to bolters in 5th too. I have found that the army plays pretty much the same, it all died so fast last edition that dying a tiny bit faster doesn't make much of a difference. The lack of AP2 melee weapons is annoying but just shooting termies to death with lances/blasters was always the better option

Sithlord
18-08-2012, 13:12
Well here's the problem!! You've been able to identify 2 whole army lists that......wait for it......make the game challenging!!

Should ANYONE expect to field an army that makes ALL games a non contest?


You've dismissed constructive comments, whilst touting your extensive experience with the DE as a reason not to listen.

Perhaps you could try taking some of the suggestions if you're really in the dire straights you claim.

that two army list are the most hardest if I play other dark eldar army list that are not venom spams (you can see my current list on above) this is my experience pretty much from shego said also include as well :

hybrid assault/death company rush Blood Angels + Meph
rhino rush + deathclaw rush + oblit/contemptor/decimator emperor's children
crimson fist turtle + camo cloak + tech marine + TH/SS Termies
Space Wolf Long Fang / Wolf Guard spam

all this plus what I said from before. are very hard to beat.. my 1st army list, before began to expand to venom spam army list would be like this

archon with your usual cache of huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield etc (can't remember, but I bring Phantasm though for use for his bodyguards)
5 incubi include champs ride in raider flickerfield, aethersails, ramming device tingie
3 X 10 warrior blaster, splinter cannon, champs with venomblades ride on same raider option as incubis
ravager
razorwings
6 reavers, 2 grav talon, 2 heat lance, champs with venom blades

this is my 1st collection on dark eldar 2 years ago when new model is out. I could tell you it's bummer when fighting all vehicle armies on 5th ed... at that time I decide well just a game.. gradually I keep losing a lot with this list. and start to compile effective list, start from wych, wracks, gradually I came up with that venom list (though not entirely MY IDEA, it was pick up on internet, the winner of some GTA american tourney or something). And then off to 6th ed... the dark eldar become a cake armies, after I realize that current dark eldar are just bit off right now.. Sure you guys can shove some great army list to win but can't you guys think how much dough i've to spent again? seriously I though the stuff you buy should have at least same chances to win? Or maybe you can say constructive, raider equip with bla bla bla, of course it will be great, who didn't try that. i've try with just 10 cheap warriors ride just in raider with just splinter racks. Believe me I tried that. But maybe I'm wrong anyway on all this, some of you defend the dark eldar, but for those who really play a long time... then you realize something missing in dark eldar.

Here is what I conclude, you may or may not agree anyway but I spell it :
1. Playing dark eldar, in order to win, they have VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE option army list to win effectively. You can't be like the grey knights, where you can spam, normal greyknights, paladins, purifiers and still have big chances to win.. not to mention the necron too. Remember the big key word. VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE.

2. What phil kelly promise is not delivered when creating new dark eldar. The offense power are just so so. I mean if you want to make a Fast but otherwise weak armies, might as well just give hell lot of firepower or CC power. instead being halfwit (splinter cannon poisoning should have been 3+ for one thing, or 4+ but get re-rolled, lots of my gaming group said dark eldar too halfwit on their attacking power. Necron on the other hand though slow but they have good resilient and huge number offensive shooting power). I don't know if I'm wrong on this. I recalled reading on net (I forgot which one, probably on warseer or maybe not) that phil kelly mention that current dark eldar rules are made too hastily without giving more times to properly test them (as GW policy to release the new model immediately.. remember GW sells models NOT the rules), he also said that hasty rules product are proven when you see royal court and dais of destruction rules in the book(the last is mentioned very well by him).

3. point comparison, that dark eldar are just way to pricey. Okay let's compare the equal one. Flyer vs flyer. let's see IG flyer vendettas (anti tank right?) VS Void raven (anti tank too). PTS = vendetta 130pts, voidraven 145pts. Armor value, vendetta, F/S/R = 12/12/10, voidraven, F/S/R= 11/11/10. Special rules, vendetta = hover, voidraven = ummmm none? Geez guys, I always compare unit to unit base on what they really can do. that vendetta and voidraven are just prime sample on how big failed the pts cost and the justified action do by those two units. Even I was surprise when I found out that most IG vehicles are way cheap and can do much more than dark eldar one. It's okay if you lack speed in IG's, but at least you got very long range weapons and not to mention highly destructive that even if you have speed, you can be easily captured by it. :( on top of that you have that number :D

arkirk246
18-08-2012, 14:36
NubIO- Couldn't agree more!!!!

Sithlord- sounds like DE are not for you maybe you should use SM or IG they sound better suited to your play style, DE are just like CW Eldar you can’t spam only Banshees or only Fire Dragons they all need support that’s what i like about playing Eldar, it takes a lot more thinking IMO, this is why DE need balanced lists to do well

You & your gaming group are spot on DE are halfwit???? Like i mentioned earlier DE cant out shoot a shooting army but we can out assault them & we can’t out assault a CC army but we can out shoot them, DE have the speed to assault the weak and keep away from the strong


Vendetta- lascannon, Voidraven- Void Lance which is better for AV 13+, Vendetta- no Void mine, Voidraven- Voidmine? Not saying one is better than the other but the pts different between the two is mute!!!! Again two different roles one is a transport and one is a LR worst nightmare

when I first started using DE after SM i use to lose all the time! then i found there key attributes, now i can safely say i win more now than loss

Sithlord
18-08-2012, 14:53
Sithlord- sounds like DE are not for you maybe you should use SM or IG they sound better suited to your play style, DE are just like CW Eldar you can’t spam only Banshees or only Fire Dragons they all need support that’s what i like about playing Eldar, it takes a lot more thinking IMO, this is why DE need balanced lists to do well

You & your gaming group are spot on DE are halfwit???? Like i mentioned earlier DE cant out shoot a shooting army but we can out assault them & we can’t out assault a CC army but we can out shoot them, DE have the speed to assault the weak and keep away from the strong

which is why you hit the first thing I mention, VERY FEW RESTRICTIVE ARMY LIST to win as dark eldar.
And regarding halfwit, yep 8 out of 10 people that said it in my gaming group said that (even though some of them are a win games for me, they still said it's halfwit firepower. And I agree with them too being dark eldar players. Regarding that halfwit word, because I don't know I would describe it in english of word 'tanggung' in indonesian language).
Sure maybe IG suits me, as I already play them in the form of death korp of krieg. Their list are balance, you can use any kind of army list and still have big chances to win (by mean if you are smart enough, you can win with any list of death korps). But dark eldar are my first armies, ever since I played them on their 3rd edition. So you get my cliche on them mind you.



Vendetta- lascannon, Voidraven- Void Lance which is better for AV 13+, Vendetta- no Void mine, Voidraven- Voidmine? Not saying one is better than the other but the pts different between the two is mute!!!! Again two different roles one is a transport and one is a LR worst nightmare

owwww yes... vendetta is much even better with those troop capacity, and no, they are not fitted as transport roles. They are flying tank hunting with transport capabilities.. mwahahahaha (in sarcasm on what you said). Didn't I mention, when those people on the ground have lucky shot on their autocannon/lascannon shot would make any dark eldar pilot sweating alot? That's big difference between vendetta and voidraven

you know, it's kinda dilemma if I repeat what shego said on this

I can take that we can't all hide in reserve anymore, it was cheatingly scumish (I still did it)
I can take that we take Str 4 hits when raiders pop. Burning vehicles burn, brah!
I can take that we have no feesable AA beyond Razorwing. We're in the teething stages of the new edition.
I can take that our Raiders and Ravagers and Venoms are hit on 3+ if we move at the speed of sound (barely, but okay...)
I can take AP3 Incubi and AP3 Huskblade. Blasters deal with AP2 just fine
I can take hull points making us all the more delicate, our vehicles die anyway
I can take not being able to hold objectives in vehicles. This applies to all, but not everybody's a small, expensive, T3 5+ band

makes ma me smile :) especially the last line, last sentence :D

Rated_lexxx
18-08-2012, 17:43
Well I won my feast of blades qualifier a couple of weeks ago with my DE

There were 22 people there so it was a challenge

I had some things go my way and my opponent had some bad luck, but that's the nature of the game. You have to take advantage of your opponent's misfortune and to try make every situation advantageous to you

TheDoctor
18-08-2012, 18:26
You know, I really hate to be that guy, but as arkirk said, you should probably pick a different army.

I've been playing pretty much nothing but my Craftworld Eldar since 6th came out, and I have been doing extremely well with them. And I would kill to be able to trade out all of my *super-amazing and awesome* guardians for warriors or wyches.

So if I can kick a** and take names with an old 4th edition codex, you should be able to do better with a much, much newer codex.

*severe sarcasm disclaimer*

Clarkson
18-08-2012, 18:28
Tons of DE people bitchin' about that you have to use tactics now to fight because new rules changed their broken lists of 5th..

give it a few months and DE will have a broken list for 6th and people will stop complaining..

people who hate the fact they cant hide in reserve first turn is a help for someone who wants to play a game w/o being diddled out of playing a fun game..

it the same for the rest of us.. Tau were once good.. a new edition came out and they lost out.. a newer one still and its still a wtf moment to them..

SoB have been shafted.. marines.. chaos.. daemons.. guard.. etc we all have had lists change because of edition or meta or codex changes.. So what? this is the game we love and play despite the changes.. so dont feel put out because raider/melta spam is pointless now.. adapt and change.. or else you are shoddy players..

Inquisitor Shego
18-08-2012, 19:34
Tons of DE people bitchin' about that you have to use tactics now to fight because new rules changed their broken lists of 5th..

give it a few months and DE will have a broken list for 6th and people will stop complaining..

people who hate the fact they cant hide in reserve first turn is a help for someone who wants to play a game w/o being diddled out of playing a fun game..

it the same for the rest of us.. Tau were once good.. a new edition came out and they lost out.. a newer one still and its still a wtf moment to them..

SoB have been shafted.. marines.. chaos.. daemons.. guard.. etc we all have had lists change because of edition or meta or codex changes.. So what? this is the game we love and play despite the changes.. so dont feel put out because raider/melta spam is pointless now.. adapt and change.. or else you are shoddy players..

Bold is Ad Homenin. Your words "So What?" tells me you actually have nothing to contribute to this. Your logic is, if one girl gets assaulted at a drunken frat party, all others should put up and shut up about it because their plight is no longer unique. Of course the difference between that example and what's going on here are 500 shades of severity darker, obviously, but I aim to shine a light on your logic.

As for hiding during the first turn, I dare say it gave your opponent a chance to reposition, and advance. The exception being if your opponent is playing a static gun line, something we can also debate being fun or not. Truth be told, we didn't need to hide in reserve first turn, during 5th ed. Now it would be a damn nice luxury.

As for "bitchin'" Well I'm not, genuinely. I'm explaining a case. I don't sit on warseer praying phil kelly's going to read this thread and change everything for me. I'm just doing what I always do. I'm voting with my wallet. I had a shopping list of 6 x venom + 2 x box of scourge + 1 x warrior. Not much, about 180. I now spend that elsewhere. Does GW know or care? I doubt it. What matters though is a theme I felt comfortable with, that of the raider swarm, has now been diluted, corrupted, and lets say nerfed for giggles. To those still playing their DE, winning with them, loving them, and this edition more than the last, I applaud you. Genuinely I applaud you. I think you're a credit to DE in general, but me. I'm pretty much out.

On the bright side, this lack of playing has led me to painting more, so I might finally have an army I finish.

Xerkics
18-08-2012, 20:15
Dark E are an amazing army with best round internal balance out of the current codices and options for tackling just about anything. IF you are not doing well with them its probably just not suitable for your playstyle. IG can be quite retarded though but its a crudface codex so.

DeviantApostle
18-08-2012, 20:46
DE did take a beating moving to 6th. Hopefully there's another proper errata in the works. Internal balance went from really good to messed up. Lota things that nobody took before are now better than the old 'wow' units. I still find DE rewarding to play, however. Their style suits me down to the ground.

Here's what happens to me with nightshields against infantry, let's see if it jibes. I move 6" into 24" range and shoot. Everything hits because of splinter racks, 5 wounds go in and generally I get a few casualties depending on the target. Let's say marines for the sake of discussion. Every dead marine is gold, 1-2 marines is what I generally get. They step up 6" and shoot... if they can because of terrain. If they're willing to risk coming out of cover because of my Razorwing's missiles or Disintegrators or whatever HS I have. So let's say they do move and shoot back, this would be 10 shots, let's assume best case scenario for them that they didn't take any meltaguns, but now we're only talking 8 or 9 shots. Let's say nine, so that 6 hit neatly on average. That's average 1 glance with S4. Then I get cover or flickerfields.

Let's review what I've achieved:
1. He had to move closer to me to take the shot. This may mean he's moved out of cover and vulnerable to my heavy support. It may mean it's an extra 6" my assault troops don't have to move. Advantage me.
2. I killed 1-2 marines. It's a small victory but every little bit counts against marines. Death by a thousand cuts.
3. In return, the worst I can expect on average is the loss of 1 hull point. Even that isn't certain. We're not even assuming here that he hasn't taken meltaguns, which don't contribute to this exchange at all thanks to 6" range from Nightshields. I'm also not counting the Raider's Lance or Disintegrator inflicting casualties for me, please note.

No, nothing in the book is amazing on its own. Alot of things got nerfed hard, AP3 power weapons do kinda smart. But if you want an army that you can wield like a hammer, play marines. Dark Eldar is about precision, timing and dirty pool. They are the scalpel to the marine's hammer.

Soupcat
18-08-2012, 20:51
Cool can i have your stuff?
Seriously though dark eldar are stupidly mobile, dark glances are much more reliable, and can have alot of models on the table. 2 HP venom spam is not going to work well anymore but it wasn't fantastic even in 5th as your dark light was short ranged and you never really want together that close.
I really cannot stress how important night shields are, assuming you play smart and can do math on the fly your opponents will be pulling out hair with how frustrating it is. We are struggling with anti air but so is everyone else and in the end we are still better of with flickering razor wings and battlebro farseer.

Xerkics
18-08-2012, 21:02
Um the amount of AP2 ranged weapons you can easily compensate incubi loss of ap2. People just need to learn to embrace change and change their lists not stick to the old and complain when they dont work.

adreal
18-08-2012, 21:12
@Adreal
what do you know, I can repeat what I said for soupcat for you. If you want :)

And also, I've played this dark eldar for TWO YEARS and know the transition between 5th ed and 6th ed. This experience from veterans
and if you want to know the ONLY list that really work for dark eldar in competitive environment is this (against any armies).

Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

I think this is around 1500pts. Some people would trade couple of wrack into wyches with haywire grenades, or trade 1/2 ravager for either voidraven/razorwing

You might want to mind your tone.

You have been Playing for two years, that's great, you have some experience with alot of the units in the codex, some work alittle different now (incubi can't kill termies, harlies have new cover save rules). But most are the same.

Heres the thing, combat doesn't really work now, and that's cool, our combat has always just been okay, wyches tied things up not steam rolled units, incubi were very costly, wracks were tough, monsterous creatures ment we didn't have ravagers. But shooting across the board has improved, and our shooting was already pretty good. So play the shooting game.

Dark eldar vehicles have options to improve their survivability, night shields force small arms closer (great against grey knights) and flickerfields are an invun save, which can be golden (though it's debateable if it's really needed now, another bonus of the new rules). Now yes, guard have better plains and tanks (the vendetta is all sorts of broken), but that's more a problem with the guard codex.

Also someone said that Reavers save is worse now, skilled rider adds +1 to their jink save, so when they flat out its still a 3+, and when they move normal it's a 4+.

OgreBattle
18-08-2012, 21:35
I don't really see how darklight/venomspam got any worse in this edition. DE have strong shooting and mobility, 6e has made their anti-tank shooting better, their mobility get more benefits, and now wyches just remove any vehicle they are in base contact with.

every complaint really is centered around a desire to jump into assault with terminators and come up victorious by a large margin. That wasn't the optimal way to fight them in 5e anyways. Shoot them down, fill them with poison.

Having access to Farseers also really boosts the lethatility of poison.

Haravikk
18-08-2012, 23:53
Open topped now useless?
Not sure how it's useless, it's still possible to assault for a start!

I think a lot of the issues are going to be things that need new codexes and a bit of time to sort out, as some people still have more anti-mech than they really need, which means raiders don't last long. But as excessive spam lists start to disappear, so too should the anti-mech we needed to deal with them; well, not disappear but go down to a saner level again.

I never had many tanks and didn't have enough anti-mech; in both cases because I don't have enough models (all metal army). In 6th my line up feels about right, other than still needing a Rhino that isn't 10 years old and painted light green anyway, so I think that as other armies come down to around the same level we'll see it all even out and Dark Eldar will still be fast and vicious. Not as fast and vicious, but better.

Sithlord
19-08-2012, 02:21
You have been Playing for two years, that's great, you have some experience with alot of the units in the codex, some work alittle different now (incubi can't kill termies, harlies have new cover save rules). But most are the same.

forgot to mention, that two years was dark eldar newest codex experience. Actually I already play dark eldar way back on 2003 (when they are still 3rd edition codex) but I would not mention that as that time, the rules are totally different. But back then, the dark eldar are actually a CC race. The very reason I choose them in 1st place (as my 1st race in 40k) was I'm a very agitated person, who wants to finish up a game up close and personal and as quickly as possible. Dark eldar of 3rd edition reflect this at that time. A very fast hard hitting CC armies, and dark eldar were very good on one thing at that time, divide and conquer with horrorfex/terrorfex (they make enemy pinning check failed at most time). I can pinned the rest of those bozos while I kill one unit at one time


Heres the thing, combat doesn't really work now, and that's cool, our combat has always just been okay, wyches tied things up not steam rolled units, incubi were very costly, wracks were tough, monsterous creatures ment we didn't have ravagers. But shooting across the board has improved, and our shooting was already pretty good. So play the shooting game.


Sadly now you mention this. Kinda reminding on CRAFTWORLD eldar right? They have speed, better tanks and better guns, not to mention psychic powers to make splinter racks like laughable thing (not to mention splinter racks only re-roll splinter rifle and splinter pistols NOT splinter cannon and splinter carbine).

Sadly, with current condition of codex... it's impossible to play a 'thematic list' to win. (see that kabalite list, where I field 3 warriors, ravager, reaver. That was suppose to be a TRUE kabal armies). Unlike the death korp of krieg (I play crap lot of infantry, as dictated as infantry regiment and win on it). What's matter a theme army list that you love to win, and now GW force me to play the non theme list to win (venom spam). I can tell you how much money i've spent on it. Sometimes people really want to collect an army (especially themed army) to win.

adreal
19-08-2012, 02:52
you want to take kabalites, yet you want to do combat?? Having WS4 and I5 doesn't make them close combat troops.

10 warriors
-blaster
-splinter cannon
-sybarite
-raider with night, flicker and splinter
=205pts

This unit at 24" has 8 TL splinter shots (hitting on 3's if moved 6" or 6's if going 12") and 4 to 6 non TL splinter shots (I would use 4 if going 6" and 6 if going 12")
at 18" it can engage tanks, or add a S8 AP2 shot
at 12" it has 16 TL splinter shots, a lance shot and atleast 4 cannon shots.

That is pretty good for something that clocks in at just over 200 points. And you don't even need all the upgrages I chose (sybarite and flicker). Makeing it 185 points, which is a steal for a scoring unit. Yes, spamming venoms is cheaper (points wise) I'm not arguing that, I don't think anyone will argue that point, but raider squads are bigger, so can be less hurt by an explosion, and can hold an objective about the same as the wrack unit, but deal damage easier. Plus if your raider is going to be assaulted, the occupents can overwatch, which makes splinter racks even better.

So a archon can clock in at about 150ish (kitted for combat)
incubi will be about 250ish
3 warrior squads 615
3 ravagers 375
You can get a small raver squad (5 strong) for 1500pts, it's not super spammy like a venom list would be, but thats a themy kabalite list that can atleast compete IMHO (it's no worse then in 5th ed, though combat is abit weaker)

Haunter!
19-08-2012, 13:01
OP's main delusion is that Dark Eldar are supposed to be a CC army and that Phil Kelly had promised they would be. No, he never said that and "offensive" power isn't just how hard you can throw a punch. DeviantApostle summed it up perfectly with his hammer and scalpel analogy. You can mindlessly swing a hammer around and cause some damage, but a scalpel requires you to know when and where to cut to cause real damage. Dark Eldar require more strategy and placement than just rushing forward and trying to get into assault.

If you want that, OP, try a Blood Angels army or even a Khorne Berserker army. You can keep a theme and still have your rush to assault.

comradeda
19-08-2012, 16:59
I remember the days of:
Archon, Punisher, Animus Vitae, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Vexantrope
6 x 10 Warriors, 2 with DLs
750 pts. Lots of gun for very low games.

Nooodles
19-08-2012, 18:44
I played DE from the 3rd edition and has only recently come back to the game. I do think they've become weaker in areas like spamy 100pts DL warrior but I still think they are a viable army. No you cant just charge into assault like space wolves and what not. But with combinations of different unit setup and fighting the right battle with the right units, you can still win. I think DE do have most the of the solutions for all our problems. The biggest problem of all is just balancing which solution to take with limited resources.

Depulsor
19-08-2012, 20:11
I have to agree with the OP to a degree... maybe that glasshammer doesnt hit for enough damage.
But to compare the voidrave to the vendetta is just wrong.
The pointcosts of the vendetta are MUCH too low. We all know this... maybe even GW knows this, but they like selling the kits, so they dont care.


DE are not on the top of the food chain, but on the other hand, they arent at the bottom either.
If you play with very competitive players, then it might hurt a little bit to play DE ... but in normal cases I think they are fine.
And dont forget: These top tier armies also dont have THAT many builds that are OP. So only playing to win will limit your options anyway, even if you play something other than DE.

Gutlord Grom
19-08-2012, 22:33
So, ultimately Sithlord , what do you want out of this thread?

I mean, this isn't really a discussion of tactics, or how you could improve your current list. This isn't really a discussion of the pro's and con's of running Dark Eldar as x-list or y-strategy. All we have here is the standard, infamous Warseer complaint thread where the 'issue' of the week is bandied about the communal water cooler and we kvetch about how the things we can't change in the immediate future. It's almost the reason 40k general exists : Join our forums for the despairing group hug!.

Because if that's what this thread is for, here, let the Chaos Marines pass you some handkerchiefs while the Craftworld Eldar close the blinds and the Tyranids cook up some chicken soup for you. Hey, look even the orks are here, because you guys are buddies, the un-updated duo! If you just want to complain, they're here for you. Keep in mind, you'll have to be there for them when their next "My army is unplayable!" thread rolls around, rooting for them as they tell anyone who disagrees that they clearly haven't played enough o their army to understand what they're going through.

Or...

You could do something about it.

Warseer has a tactics forum, and the 6th Edition Dark Eldar discussion is one of the top threads right now. I'm pretty sure you could pop in if you haven't already and look for help, look for suggestions. Put army lists in the lists forum and get some help; having a few extra pairs of eyes on an issue can really help. And really, the only other thing you can do is look at what you're playing against in your area. Come up with an all comers list that is meant to take on whatever other gamers in your local area usually field. Proxy stuff, try out new combinations once in a while for the hell of it. You might be surprised, or you might not. This is all kind of general advice, but its also really things that you're supposed to do anyway. instead of focusing on what you can't do (My army of paper-thin welter wights do terrible in meat grinder assaults! Curses!) and what it actually can do (high maneuverability getting your grunts where you actually want it to go, and getting it there in one piece so it can unleash ranged hell)

My two cents.

kaimarion
19-08-2012, 23:01
The DE are a Glass Hammer army just minus the Hammer part.
My opinion is based purely on my experience playing against and using DE.

Scribe of Khorne
19-08-2012, 23:08
Is this still not a successful list? If the argument is that they suck in CC, that hasnt changed either, they sucked in cc in 5th as well.

Haemo

3 - Blasterborn x 3/Venoms w/2 SC's

9 Wracks - Raider
5 Warriors - Venom
2 x 10 Wyches - Raider

2 - Reavers x 6, 2 Heatlance

Ravager
Razorwing
Razorwing

I mean yes, everything dies to a stiff breeze, but that happened in 5th as well. Get those Nightshields and make some space? Everything is a fast skimmer, so I fail to see the issues here I guess.

Drasanil
20-08-2012, 00:00
In short: want DE to CC? Shadowfield Archon FortuneDoom Seer council (or FortuneDoom Harlies if you want less 'ard and more choppy) and face-tank like a champ.

BadabBlack
20-08-2012, 01:19
OP's main delusion is that Dark Eldar are supposed to be a CC army and that Phil Kelly had promised they would be. No, he never said that and "offensive" power isn't just how hard you can throw a punch.

Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 94, "Slicing And Dicing", First sentence

"There's no denying it; Dark Eldar are an extremely potent assault army."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

Scribe of Khorne
20-08-2012, 01:40
Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 94, "Slicing And Dicing", First sentence

"There's no denying it; Dark Eldar are an extremely potent assault army."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

Dont believe everything you read. :rolleyes:

Sithlord
20-08-2012, 02:28
Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 94, "Slicing And Dicing", First sentence

"There's no denying it; Dark Eldar are an extremely potent assault army."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

unfortunately... that is exactly what phil said :p

@gurlord grom
actually this thread was about the discussion of a DILEMMA of the DARK ELDAR. Having a creator said that this is CC armies but failed to deliver it... kinda bugger. Well if you want to discuss tactics, I believe I give a sample of my army list (on 1st page I think, with warriors within raider something) VS against 2 of many army list that hard to beat (the blood angel tank armies and IG manticore/vendettas, on 1st page as well). And no, I'm not developing new army list ('cept venom spams) , as even if I do have money to buy what I want at anytime, painting is one other problem you cannot solve with money (unless you are paying someone else to do it, but I've pride on my painting even though is not winning any golden daemon fraks)

@haunter
no, i'm not going to start any new armies for reason I said to the previous dude in this same post

@khorne
not that sucks in CC on 3rd, especially when you held those horrorfex and terrorfex grenades. Sure warrior use their gun first, when enemies are just too few, hack them apart anyway in CC (this on their 3rd edition rules)

Scribe of Khorne
20-08-2012, 03:46
unfortunately... that is exactly what phil said :p

@khorne
not that sucks in CC on 3rd, especially when you held those horrorfex and terrorfex grenades. Sure warrior use their gun first, when enemies are just too few, hack them apart anyway in CC (this on their 3rd edition rules)

So your issue is that they went from being workable in CC in 3rd (yeah whats 10 years) to being unable to rock the house in CC in 6th? :wtf:

adreal
20-08-2012, 05:19
Incubi can still wreck some face in close combat, just not terminators or sang guard, but if you didn't wipe the terminator unit out, you were going to loose alot of incubi (same with sang guard, but they are a much smaller unit).

Harliequins are a very good combat troop (now we can get doom support) and they arnt all that slow with ignoring cover (while adding +2 to the save)

Wracks/grotes are as good as they have ever been, the only thing they loose is the initative bonus for furious charge

Archons, they can wreck some face but loose out against 2+, in challenges that is a problem, but shadowfields help (clone fields do as well, depends on what's challenging)

Succubi loose out against 2+ characters, but are cheap.

Wyches/hellion are the big losers thanks to over watch, but spam enough wyches/hellions and they should still work.

Warriors were never a combat troop, so they only gained this edition (over watch). And they can over watch from a vehicle, which is even better

Sexiest_hero
20-08-2012, 06:50
Yo have to pay big bucks to fight terminators, Vect gets it done. The darkharly star is the Nob bikers of 6th edition. Reavers can get borderline OP with bladevines. the Duke gives whole units Hit and run. Idk what you want? You want vendettas, and paladins? A hug? To sell your army?

koran
20-08-2012, 10:05
I have to say that you are way off on your comments on the void raven. This is an awesome bit of kit! You're comments about autocannons getting are a lucky hit (which you constantly use to dismiss this unit) is still not especially compelling. Lets look at that. You first have to hit on a 1/6 chance. Its only 1/2 a chance to even glance the void raven and then the void raven has a 5+ Invulnerable save (so 2/3 chance of the hit getting through). And to kill the void raven with one shot is 1/6 again.

So (if my math is correct, though I do hate doing mathhammer:
10% chance of any autocannon doing a glancing of penetrating hit. (Thats with it doing two shots).

To one shot the void raven is a 1.2% chance (again including that it has two shots).

I cant believe you're complaining about this as a unit that will die as soon as someone looks at it!

Yes if you come up against hydra's you're going to have a problem but the entire DE army does as they are all mounted in skimmers so they have to be a kill priority.

You're also talking about a flier that is better against AV13 and 14 as it has the lance rule over lascannons. The void raven may even be better on a one on one against a vendetta.

Vendetta shooting a void raven:
This equals around a 33% chance of killing the void raven in one round of shooting through a penetrating hit blowing it up.

Void raven vs the vendetta:
This is around a 22% chance of killing the vendetta in one shot.

So you're correct, one on one the vendetta is slightly better against a void raven. So we have a unit that isnt as good as the flier generally regarded as totally undercosted. And against ground units we are pretty on par, especially when you start to include the void mine.

I think you need to stop complaining and listen to the advice people are trying to give (at least the other people on here even should you choose to ignore me). You're the person coming across as either not playing dark eldar (or even 6th edition) very much or just generally being tactically inept (shown even more when you talk about having used incubi to hunt terminators which given that terminators are almost always of the TH/SS variety in any competitive list) and they would have bounced even then.

Failing that just throw your toys out of the pram and play a different army. One based around how hardy they are (so guard or marines) as opposed to the glass cannon that is eldar.

OgreBattle
20-08-2012, 11:14
Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 94, "Slicing And Dicing", First sentence

"There's no denying it; Dark Eldar are an extremely potent assault army."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

Phil Kelly also says tormentor helms shoot out a wave of pain

but damnit it does nothing!!

Denny
20-08-2012, 11:31
hmm... seems we're of differing opinions. It feels like 6th buffed my DE instead of weakening them.


Ditto. 1st game yesterday, tabled my regular Space Wolf opponent. Lost 3 wracks, a handful of Wyches, 1 raider and 6 reavers.

Night Shields and premeasuring makes it really easy to weave out of range then pounce on one unit at a time.

Gutlord Grom
20-08-2012, 14:03
unfortunately... that is exactly what phil said :p
@gurlord grom
actually this thread was about the discussion of a DILEMMA of the DARK ELDAR. Having a creator said that this is CC armies but failed to deliver it... kinda bugger. Well if you want to discuss tactics, I believe I give a sample of my army list (on 1st page I think, with warriors within raider something) VS against 2 of many army list that hard to beat (the blood angel tank armies and IG manticore/vendettas, on 1st page as well). And no, I'm not developing new army list ('cept venom spams) , as even if I do have money to buy what I want at anytime, painting is one other problem you cannot solve with money (unless you are paying someone else to do it, but I've pride on my painting even though is not winning any golden daemon fraks)


You said a whole lot of nothing.

Your dilemma is that you are having trouble facing certain types of army with the Dark Eldar as they are currently written, yes(or at least your bringing up hypothetical lists that could potentially exist)? Okay. How often do you face Blood Angels tank armies and IG Manticore/Vendetta's? Every game, or every few games? Do your regular opponents bring the same lists every time, or not? With that in mind, plan ahead, see what else works beside venom spam if you really want to look for an alternative. Because if you don't want an alternative, there's not much to say anymore. You can either try to change the way you play, or you can just kind of muddle along saying that your army sucks.

And if money really is a concern during testing/gaming (like it is for myself), you can proxy things to try new lists out. Unless your local group is a bizarre clan of pedants, you should be fine trying out new stuff with them. And I didn't evrn bring up painting, but congratulations on your confidence in your skills I suppose :eyebrows: .

Haunter!
20-08-2012, 14:53
Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 94, "Slicing And Dicing", First sentence

"There's no denying it; Dark Eldar are an extremely potent assault army."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

Maybe you should read that entire section and take that line in context of the paragraph it opens. That section is saying: 'Yeah, you can assault. Some units are good at assaulting.' It also says this very important line: "One of the most vital aspects of the Dark Eldar tactical repertoire is dictating how and when assaults take place."

Pick your battles, know when to strike. We're not savages.

Sithlord
20-08-2012, 16:44
@all
find your are all busting me, so let's talk strategy then. Here's a list

archon with your usual cache of huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield etc (can't remember, but I bring Phantasm though for use for his bodyguards and haywire grenade)
5 incubi include champs (onslaught) ride in raider flickerfield, aethersails, ramming device tingie
3 X 10 warrior blaster, splinter cannon, champs with venomblades and blastpistol) ride on same raider option as incubis
ravager (flickerfield, aethersails, ramming device tingie)
razorwings (splinter cannon upgrader, flickerfield)
6 reavers, 2 grav talon, 2 heat lance, champs with venom blades

enemy in form of this
this 1st enemy army list IG
command HQ (3 meltaguns and banners) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
platoon command (4 meltaguns) ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
2 plain infantry squad
2 autocannon heavy weapon team
veteran squad with 3 plasma guns ride in chimera fit with heavy flamer
3 vendettas
2 manticores
1 psyker battle squad of 7 men
all this exactly around 1500pts

the other army list blood angels
1 libby
2 assault squad of 5 men (infernus pistol and powerweapons), each ride in razorback with heavy flamers
1 assault squad of 10 men, in rhino (this one fitted with all those infernus pistols and powerfist)
3 baal predator (both fitter with heavy bolter sponson, one of them being inferno cannon)
2 predator (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons)
1 stormraven gunship

Assuming you have 1st mission with 5 counters, normal pitch battle maps (consist 3 big ruins that can only cover up one raider located 1 in middle, 1 on each player side. 2 forest terrain on each player side, 2 area terrain with diameters of 3 inch located on middle table just right and left of mid ruins), Warlord trait getting something that isn't that so important (counter attack on your deployment side or whatever). How do you beat the two guys army list, with my first original army list? And also you didn't get the first turn.

@Haunter!
assuming that you are not shot first, we don't have that many terrain to cover the size of a raider. In tournament games, I've yet seen that many terrains to block LOS with vehicle as large as raider. While many armies depend on either high saves/toughness/armor value or Numbers to make it to their blunders, dark eldar don't have those qualities.... we can't even be compared to eldar one too as their vehicle has better armor value and better protection (holofield and what those shield with antimelta things?) and also better firepower and abilities from aspect warrior. Man, i've seen what fire dragon exarch do with quad guns :(

Rated_lexxx
20-08-2012, 16:55
well first drop the aether sails and the ram thing/ Drop the upgraded warrior. Drop a incubi and put them and archon into a venom

Denny
20-08-2012, 16:58
@all
find your are all busting me, so let's talk strategy then. Here's a list:(

Why Flickerfields? You get a 5+ cover save anyway if you move. Is it worth an extra 10 points per unit?
Why warrior champs with venomblades and blastpistol? That's an extra 30 points a squad! Do you find they help much?
Why grav talons? How often do you pin a unit? And why squad leaders with Venom blades, do you ever assualt anything? Your paying 35 points for these upgrades.
Do you think Onslaught is worthwhile on a 5 man squad? Seems pretty expensive to me. Wouldn't another incubi be a better use of points?
How often do you use your rams and 'sails? (Maybe a lot, I'm just curious)

If you took out all those upgrades your list would be considerably cheaper . . . would it be much less effective?
What else could you buy with the points?

arkirk246
20-08-2012, 18:35
Sithlord- don’t take offence to this but just looking at you list, it looks as thow you are useing DE completely wrong
I’m no expert and i will try and give you some pointers which i am sure i will get shot down for? but here go's!!!!!!!!!!

Ravagers- with sails & Shock prow why!!!!!! do you want to go ramming stuff or sit back and shoot at tanks and terminators at 36''

Reaver jet bikes- grav-talons and HL champ with Venom blade? how often is he going to see combat? i find reaver should do one of two roles AT or AI since DE struggle against mech i find HL for AT the way?

i see that you like to buy lots of upgrads: the 3x warriors squads, i would drop blaster, blast pistol & venom blade (sit back and shoot they should stay out of combat IMO

5x incubi (basic) in a venom is fine, i have taken out whole 10 man marine squads and gone on to chop another 3-4 marines? take in to account marine armies have between 30-45 marines in an army (1500-1750 pts) that’s a large chunk of marines you don’t have to worry about!!!

the Archon IMO is not that great i normally run just a haemonculus with shattershad- but that is just my preference? your Archon runs in at 175pts just think, that would get you a bomber with missiles which i think would do more?

i totalled up your upgrades and IMO a poor archon you have 395pts that’s a lot of left over pts

you said you like CC stuff!!!! why not change out change out 1x warrior squad and replace them with Wyches haywire grenades, venom blade , you now have AT & AI

another unit of 5 incubi in a Venom

another Ravager

still leaves you with about 115pts

anyway just a few idea’s but there are lots of other options in the DE codex

Jayden63
20-08-2012, 18:59
I see a whole lot of what I call "filler" points being spent.

Retool your Archon - huskblade and soul trap work great against 3+ save guys. Too bad most ICs will be rocking the 2+ save in 6th edition. Thats a lot of points for stuff that probably wont do much for you. Save points and go with a generic power axe. The shadowfield will see your guy around long enough to swing and your killing the 2+ save stuff.
Drop all Aethersails - our vehicles move fast enough
Drop all blast pistols and blades from warrior champs. - your mixing weapons blasters and splinter cannons don't mix. Go either all blast weapons or all splinter.
Drop all tank shock thingies - I find my ships die fast enough that they almost never get the chance to tankshock or ram. You should be playing the range game anyway, night shields will help with this.
Drop the grav talons and change out for caltrops. The D6 S6 hits do much more.
Drop the splinter cannon on the razor wing. Between blasters and stock missiles you should be doing just fine. Or if your bringing Dark lances, the cannon has really no use as its not really complimentry and its another 10 points you didn't need to spend.

Now use all of these extra points to get another squad of anything. I'd strongly recommend increasing your Inucbi. 5 guys might have got it done in the past, but now bring 9-10. Your going to need the extra bodies against overwatch, but at least the unit will still get the job done. Also, don't send them after stuff they can't kill. This should be obvious, but it seems like people still try to send them after stuff they shouldn't be.

Snowflake
20-08-2012, 19:11
As has been said, you don't. But not because DE are bad, just that list is bad. It's been said before, but bears re-stating, you really seem to be approaching DE wrong. You are overloading your upgrades everywhere, and seem to have this burning desire to engage in cc. This seemz to be 1500, so from the list above:

Drop the sails and shock prows from the warrior raiders. Swap the FF for night shields.
Drop the upgrades from the warrior leaders, run them naked if you take a leader at all.
Drop the incubus squad to 4, drop the Klaivex altogether (overkill in almost all situations), put them in a venom with night shields and your hq.
Drop the grav talons from the reavers, if you are going to run a BV upgrade run caltrops, the talon is a waste of points.
Debatable, but consider swapping your archon competely for a succy. YMMV, but i find the succy is almost as effective (lacks only the sf save) for about half the points.
Use this massive point savings to get two ravagers, and you can probably afford a bit more after that.

Above all your mentality seems to be wrong. Assume your vehicles will all die before the end of the game, so use them properly before then. Focus down the transports and any tanks with heavy AI, get out of the raiders before they blow, torrent down his infantry, then just ignore the gun tanks if you want. Only one scenario really involves killing a lot of units, the rest you will win if you clear out his scorers.

I'd say more but out of time. You may be better suited for a more durable army than DE.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Haunter!
20-08-2012, 20:18
@Haunter!
assuming that you are not shot first, we don't have that many terrain to cover the size of a raider. In tournament games, I've yet seen that many terrains to block LOS with vehicle as large as raider. While many armies depend on either high saves/toughness/armor value or Numbers to make it to their blunders, dark eldar don't have those qualities.... we can't even be compared to eldar one too as their vehicle has better armor value and better protection (holofield and what those shield with antimelta things?) and also better firepower and abilities from aspect warrior. Man, i've seen what fire dragon exarch do with quad guns :(

Yes, our strength does not lie in overwhelming power. It relies in rapid repositioning of our guns to cripple what we need to to create openings for the rest of the units to finish them off. Synergy is key. If you're relying on just one squad to table something by itself, you're playing the wrong army.

Bonzai
20-08-2012, 20:47
To the OP: They are giving you some decent advice. Heed it. DE have a lot of extra bells and whistles that can bog your list down. Get rid of them. As you mentioned, they just die too easy in the first place. Frankly, the only unit that can be justified for extensive upgrades is the Archon, and only because the 2++ save gives him the leeway. Quantity will beat out quality when you die in droves to begin with. Secondly, assault took a hit across the board. All armies got hit with this to some degree. 6th is a shooting edition. Fortunately, DE are capable of taking down infantry and vehicles just fine at range.

All that being said.... EVERY codex eventually devolves into a one or two build list over time. The metagame shifts, editions change, and your options become more and more limited. Tau are more or less relegated to crisis suits and railguns. Through most of 5th, Daemons only had fatecrusher. Orks were pretty much battle wagon or Nob biker spam. Vanilla marines were pretty much Vulkan lists in the upper tiers, and CSMs were pretty much just dual lash lists. Recent codex'es like Guard an Space Wolves seem to be congealing into maybe 3 lists a piece tops. Even Necrons are rapidly devolving into Wraith spam. It will happen to DE sooner than latter, and may have already begun with 6th now out.

It is a shame though. My Brother played a beautiful WWP/Jump infantry list. The Baron, Hellions, Scourges, a pair of Haemi's with wracks in venoms to plant the portals, and some Talos for the heavy lifting. I loved it, as the jump infantry that came in from reserves could touch anywhere on the board if the portals were deployed correctly. Now that they are unable to tie up units in assault when they come out of the portal, having to deploy a chunk of his units, and other changes also hurt it to the point where my Brother hasn't picked up his DE after his first few 6th edition games. He'll go back to them eventually, but he basically has to go back to the drawing board with them.

Sithlord
21-08-2012, 02:56
@all
hahahahaha, you just prove on my points. Dark eldar have 'Very restrictive army list' to win the games. I told you all the situations (including not winning the first turn). I'm asking advice on how 'strategically' win the game, NOT the list modifying... Anyone can do that even me. Even some newbs, seeing some sample army list on the net can even win without to think anything in the games except kill everything you've seen (yea, you all know that draigowing things. 2 newbs playing GK choose to play all paladin stuff).

See this spacemarine list, played by my friend (he is one of those dudes, not making any 'overkill' army list). I consider this list to be thematic :
Space marine captain powerfist, combi bolter (and other stuff)
command squad (I think all upgrades, one with meltagun) ride in razorback
2 X 10 man tactical squad (flamer, missile launcher, powerfist) ride in rhino
1 x 10 man assault squad (one meltagun, one flamer, powersword)
1 x 10 man devastator (4 missile launcher)
Stormtalon
I think this all on 1500pts (much less, I forgot what upgrade he bring for devastator , captain and stormtalons)

yea, that's right, it's a partial battlecompany theme. And he can win just being playing smart and with plain list.

Theocracity
21-08-2012, 03:07
How does 'remove extraneous gubbins' change the theme of your list?

And if you don't want to change anything at all, no matter how inefficient it is, then why are you trying to pretend you want to play at top tier tournament level? If you want to compete against the best, you need to make the hard decisions that they do in order to win. Not doing so is like trying to become a soldier without doing pushups.

If you don't want to make those decisions, and you want to keep your theme, then stop comparing yourself to hard tournament lists and play opponents you would have fun against.

TheDoctor
21-08-2012, 03:39
You take frankly terrible lists against really good, streamlined lists and complain when you lose? Wow.

You also complain Dark Eldar lists are "restrictive" in what is good? Wrong. Pretty much every unit in the Dark Eldar codex has it's place, if you know how to use them. Getting rid of useless upgrades like rams on your ravagers is not restrictive.

TheBearminator
21-08-2012, 03:42
Sorry if I change the subject but dark eldar jet bikes are supposed to be competitive in 6th, right? I've had this idea from time to time that I would go for a small elite army of Dark Eldar and just pick the units/models that I really like. Are there any units besides the regular guys and wyches that can become troop choices? I like the idea of a pure biker army. Also like the incubi models but I guess they need a transport and those I'm not really keen on. Hm. That new flyer looks awesome, but it ain't a transport I guess? Gotta get the codex!

Rated_lexxx
21-08-2012, 03:43
You take frankly terrible lists against really good, streamlined lists and complain when you lose? Wow.

You also complain Dark Eldar lists are "restrictive" in what is good? Wrong. Pretty much every unit in the Dark Eldar codex has it's place, if you know how to use them. Getting rid of useless upgrades like rams on your ravagers is not restrictive.

Pretty much the same thing I said to take off. Take away a few unneeded upgrades( like the sails and the rams) I haven't changed your list all that much.

Sithlord
21-08-2012, 03:46
How does 'remove extraneous gubbins' change the theme of your list?

And if you don't want to change anything at all, no matter how inefficient it is, then why are you trying to pretend you want to play at top tier tournament level? If you want to compete against the best, you need to make the hard decisions that they do in order to win. Not doing so is like trying to become a soldier without doing pushups.

If you don't want to make those decisions, and you want to keep your theme, then stop comparing yourself to hard tournament lists and play opponents you would have fun against.

peace brother.... no need for flamer attacks... and here is my exactly tourney list
Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

there you go. I win this most at time in tourney list (even then, this is a 'copy paste' from the net)

What I meant this is a thread to prove that dark eldar has something missing to win (which is why I still called dilemma). That being said, one of my own primary reasons, is even if you just build PLAIN army list of dark eldar, you still can't win it (odds against most army list around 25% win dark eldar, rest for all other armies when fighting). 2nd reasons would be around on what dark eldar can really do, they don't have that much offensive power despite they really lack defensive power a lot (very2 lots) the compensation is just wrong...

if somebody really did notice another dilemma of mine is that, I keep repeating all those same reasons on 3 out of 4 pages (consistency from the author eh?)

Gutlord Grom
21-08-2012, 03:52
@all
hahahahaha, you just prove on my points. Dark eldar have 'Very restrictive army list' to win the games. I told you all the situations (including not winning the first turn). I'm asking advice on how 'strategically' win the game, NOT the list modifying... Anyone can do that even me. Even some newbs, seeing some sample army list on the net can even win without to think anything in the games except kill everything you've seen (yea, you all know that draigowing things. 2 newbs playing GK choose to play all paladin stuff).


No...what was proven is that your list is a problem.

Writing a good army list decides a whole of your tactics you can use. It decides, really how your army is going to play out, and whether or not you'll have enough warm bodies and vehicles to use against threats. And pretty much every poster pointed out that you were taking upgrades that were inefficient for the points that were being spent. You were wasting a good number of points on stuff you didn't need, so that was cutting down on the number of models you could field and taking upgrades away from models that needed them.



See this spacemarine list, played by my friend (he is one of those dudes, not making any 'overkill' army list). I consider this list to be thematic :
Space marine captain powerfist, combi bolter (and other stuff)
command squad (I think all upgrades, one with meltagun) ride in razorback
2 X 10 man tactical squad (flamer, missile launcher, powerfist) ride in rhino
1 x 10 man assault squad (one meltagun, one flamer, powersword)
1 x 10 man devastator (4 missile launcher)
Stormtalon
I think this all on 1500pts (much less, I forgot what upgrade he bring for devastator , captain and stormtalons)


Partial battle company is a style of organization that fits in the background, but its not the whole of the theme. Theme would be which Chapter is represented, the paint scheme of the company, the names of characters, the battle honors and stand out models. That said, it's a solid list, not ultra competitive but that's really alright.
(Side note: Codex Assault Marines cannot use meltaguns.)

yea, that's right, it's a partial battlecompany theme. And he can win just being playing smart and with plain list.

So, this should be an example to you then, right? As you said, it's a plain list, relying on fairly bread-and-butter units from the codex. And as you said, it relies on him playing smart.

Mother of unintended ironies.

See, here's the thing, your friend found a list that works for him, and he's got a good feel for it, probably. He knows what he wants to do, and he knows what unit can do what. See, he doing something you're not doing. He's understanding the limitation of his army, and the roles each unit is going to play. Tacticals and Command Squad claim objectives, assault squad can play counter attack, Devastators combat squad up and do the ob of anti tank, and Storm Talon bounces around and makes a nuisance of itself, distracting enemy anti-tank from his fragile Rhinos/Razourback. Devastators don't run around whacking gaunts in the face, Assault Marines don't try to outshoot Guard platoons and Tacticals don't try to outfight dedicated close combat units like incubi.

So... what should yo take from this?

Play smart would be the obvious answer, but that's probably too simple here . The answer you need to get is that writing a good list (even if "bland"), figure out what each unit is going to do and kit it out to do that. Then when you get to the table, figure out what your opponent is going to do and try to stop his plan from unfolding. Figure out how your army works: in your case, Dark Eldar are shooty with good, if limited assault options, made of tissue paper and very highly mobile with a lot of open topped skimmer transports. Dark Eldar try not to fight on their enemy's terms, since as before, your made of tissue paper. So use terrain to get cover for your skimmers, or take advantage of the jink saves when you can. Minimize return fire when you can, while maximizing your own fire lanes to wear down even MEQ troops. When you go for an assault, do it on your terms and make sure its against an enemy weakened by your shooting. And expect to take losses to enemy shooting , and plan accordingly.

And the thing is most of that's true for every army.

The_Klobb_Maniac
21-08-2012, 06:10
How spoiled are people when they complain about Raiders?
"My raider comes with a decent AT weapon, works as a charge platform, is one of the fastest vehicles in the game, can re-roll my hits for me, and move and shoot 12" "

Look. It's fragile. That didn't change. Raider's only real change was going from a 3+ you could only get on turboboosting to a free 5+ and a 4+ when turboboosting. Aside from that the only difference is you can actually melee tanks now. BS4 lances can't be all bad on nice, cheap, mobile platforms. If 60 points ain't cheap, I don't know what is.

DE offensive power is quite intense actually. Re-rolling shots while double tapping =>
20 shots, 19.55 hits, 9.25 wounds. That's spectacular (and not including a splinter cannon or anything.) All for .. 160 points? You stack a couple raiders next to eachother and bam, you kill a squad. Pretty simple idea. Use wyches to tie up what you're not murdering right off.

Still, Razorwings, Void Ravens, and other such choices are also competitive. Just experiment a bit with your codex breh
Ravagers are spectacular. Scourges are quite usable. Grotz and Wracks are doable, Incs and Bloodbrides can get stuff done.


That out of the way... it sounds like you may have terrain issues. DE are affected quite badly with low terrain and do much better when they can "strike from the shadows."

I recommend fixing that somehow.

OgreBattle
21-08-2012, 06:33
How spoiled are people when they complain about Raiders?
DE offensive power is quite intense actually. Re-rolling shots while double tapping =>
20 shots, 19.55 hits, 9.25 wounds. That's spectacular (and not including a splinter cannon or anything.) All for .. 160 points? You stack a couple raiders next to eachother and bam, you kill a squad. Pretty simple idea. Use wyches to tie up what you're not murdering right off.

splinter racks are such a characterful upgrade, makes me think orks should get "ammo runts" on their trukks n' wagons.

I bet it came about when they were modeling the raider, then somebody said "why not make that cool bit into a gameplay effect?"

Jayden63
21-08-2012, 06:39
@all
hahahahaha, you just prove on my points. Dark eldar have 'Very restrictive army list' to win the games. I told you all the situations (including not winning the first turn). I'm asking advice on how 'strategically' win the game, NOT the list modifying... Anyone can do that even me. Even some newbs, seeing some sample army list on the net can even win without to think anything in the games except kill everything you've seen (yea, you all know that draigowing things. 2 newbs playing GK choose to play all paladin stuff).

See this spacemarine list, played by my friend (he is one of those dudes, not making any 'overkill' army list). I consider this list to be thematic :
Space marine captain powerfist, combi bolter (and other stuff)
command squad (I think all upgrades, one with meltagun) ride in razorback
2 X 10 man tactical squad (flamer, missile launcher, powerfist) ride in rhino
1 x 10 man assault squad (one meltagun, one flamer, powersword)
1 x 10 man devastator (4 missile launcher)
Stormtalon
I think this all on 1500pts (much less, I forgot what upgrade he bring for devastator , captain and stormtalons)

yea, that's right, it's a partial battlecompany theme. And he can win just being playing smart and with plain list.

You know what I don't see on the SM list? dozer blades on all tanks. Melta bombs on sargents, plus any other of the many upgrades bits the units can take.

Your list is full of upgrades that don't do anything for you. Is 1 blaster pistol shot worth 1 more warrior who gets to shoot his gun 6 or times per game? Your biggest problem is that because of the wargear fluffing, your fighting 1500 pts with only 1300 or so. Thats a huge disadvantage for any list to face, let alone one without any decent saves or the ability to win through attrition.

Dropping the extra stuff is not modifying your list tactically or strategically. If anything its opening the possibility of more options as you can take another unit of anything that you feel will fit.

scapegoatboy69
21-08-2012, 06:40
I suppose I'm a little late to the party.


A benefit. But move 6 further to do what?

Generally, drop some hard CC troops onto somebody. Liddel Hart does the whole maneuver warfare shtick really well. I know that my game improved from reading some of his stuff, even though it was meant to apply to real world situations.


An amazing benefit. But their save dropped. 3+ cover save is gone.

hmm... don't turboing bikes get a 4+ and Skilled Rider increase it to 3+?


12 points a pop? For something now getting pummeled by snap fire and flamer hits that bounces off of MEQ?

There's this thing, where you shoot a unit and make it weaker. I hear such things can affect how well you do in CC.


Makes them (nightshields) awful.

I've been finding that they let our faster Raiders get to places relatively unexpected on the battlefield (Enhanced Aethersails!!!), by skirting Multimelta or Psycannon threat ranges. They can also force the opponent to shoot at what you want them to.


We don't get jink saves if our opponent gets the first turn, leading to indirect fire, or whatever else obliterating us.

Indirect fire is a pain. Nightfighting can help a bit though. Do you take Strategic traits? Do you accordion your Raiders in order to get cover for everyone?


FORTS - Dark Eldar do not fortify.

To each their own man. I've had a little luck with an Aegis placed forward so that assault troops on foot can walk up safely or sit back until a weakened horde shows up. I'm working to convert a Bastion to a spire from Comorragh, surrounded by Dawn of War-esque glyphs.


ALLIES

I think we agree a bit here. Slaves, Minions, Dupes, or Lackeys maybe. Never Allies. I'm working on converting some Skaven so I can field some Space Rats as Conscripts or something.


I really appreciate that Scapegoat. Genuinely, thank you, that's decent of you. I know I'm a negative nancy (my friends would agree). I'm curious to see your input.

No worries man. Let's do our best to make things fun again. I'll do what I can in the advice department, but there are other folks on the interwebz who know the game better than I do.

Impressions on your list:
--> Looks pretty standard, lots of poison and darklight.
--> I'm worried about the Baron getting one-shoted without a unit to hide inside.
--> Strength 4 explosions really do hurt, so being all embarked might be a bad idea.
--> 4 Blasterborn instead of 3 feels a little bit like putting all your eggs in on basket.
--> Trading the Sybarite or Splinter Cannons in the Warrior squads for Splinter Racks may net you a more lethal boat.
--> I'm worried that you might not have enough troop choices. Then again, holding objectives is kind of a codex-wide drawback of ours.
--> A cheap beast unit might prove nice to have, given that they're tough as nails and great at taking down power armor units that've been shot up a little.

If you strip the upgrades off of your Warriors, give them splinter racks, then take one less Blasterborn in each venom you could have enough points to spare for another troop choice.


1. About how much terrain do you play with? Any LoS blocking pieces?

2. 173 for 4 Blasterborn in a Venom. 125 for 5 Haywire Wyches in a Venom. Give 'em test or two and see what happens. The general plan being to run them into any vehicle that costs 60+ points or to use them to kill the last marine or two on an objective and then go to ground in terrain with FnP for the rest of the game. Blasterborn threaten a 24" range and are major targets. Wyches threaten about 21" on average dice and are less likely to be paid attention to.

The clincher, for me? Wyches have pretty good odds of wrecking a Land Raider. They will wreck anything with 3 HP on average dice. Remember to throw that Haywire Grenade before assaulting!

3. Wracks are more lethal in assaults than Wyches. More Durable, more flamer-y too. Since Power Armor armies are giving you trouble, they may be worth a look.

Blood Angels-- They're pretty good at soaking up poison shots, what with FnP. I don't have much experience that'd help you here.

Wolves-- this codex is kinda busted, imo. Unless you skew your list to include roughly two venoms per Longfang squad or some Reaver Jetbikes with Caltrops those Longfangs will wreck house game after game. A Farseer can help if Rune Priests are your big problem. Really, Nightfighting is a huge boon here, as is the nerf to AP 3 or lower shooting. Is he doing the Wolf Guard as Terminators thing?

Chaos + Forgeworld models? Nifty. Wracks are solid here, as are Wyches. Not much to do to negate Lash of Submission. Is he using Daemon Princes or Chaos Sorcs?

Crimson Fists with Crazy Stealth Saves and TH/SS Termies. Well... usually knocking the termies from their transport is step 1. If they are a 5 man squad, they can be taken out, anything more than that I just ignore and run away from. Flamers and CC help to mitigate the problems you're having in beating cover save stacking.

@ Sithlord:

You're right that Dark Eldar don't have many units that are better than every other codex. Our big strength though is that our codex is either choppier or shootier than everyone out there. In 6th edition, it pays to bring a variety of tools to the table. Combined arms. It actually matters in 40k now.

Looking at what you've posted, you're running heavy on the upgrades. Par it down, take less upgrades and play at lower point values. Play against new opponents.

As for how to beat the two lists you mentioned? They're weak at holding objectives. Prioritize their troops and flamers, then pile onto far away objectives and go to ground every time you're shot at. You'll probably have 8 models remaining, but it'll be a win none-the-less.


EDIT: After reading a little more, I've gotta wonder if you take pictures of your games. The one thing that improved my play the most has been taking pictures at the end of every turn, then writing a turn by turn batrep afterwards. It helps me spot new ways to use units and remember what did and didn't work. Also, try asking your opponent for advice after each game!

Also, thinking of 40k like chess has helped me plan in advance a lot better. "If I trade my Kabs for his Tacs, then his Assault Marines will, then I'll throw my Incubi at 'em, then he'll, etc." We only need to plan for 5 to 7 turns!

I also wonder if you've been using Bait and picking your fights. Giving the opponent a target to go after makes them more predictable. If you chop the shooty ones and shoot the choppy ones you'll do better, garunteed. :)

EDITEDIT: One more piece of useful training: swap armies with your opponent, if they're willing! It can really help you figure out how to beat a faction or pinpoint their weaknesses.

arkirk246
21-08-2012, 08:55
peace brother.... no need for flamer attacks... and here is my exactly tourney list
Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

there you go. I win this most at time in tourney list (even then, this is a 'copy paste' from the net)

What I meant this is a thread to prove that dark eldar has something missing to win (which is why I still called dilemma). That being said, one of my own primary reasons, is even if you just build PLAIN army list of dark eldar, you still can't win it (odds against most army list around 25% win dark eldar, rest for all other armies when fighting). 2nd reasons would be around on what dark eldar can really do, they don't have that much offensive power despite they really lack defensive power a lot (very2 lots) the compensation is just wrong...

if somebody really did notice another dilemma of mine is that, I keep repeating all those same reasons on 3 out of 4 pages (consistency from the author eh?)

Nobody is flaming you Sithlord! But if i didn’t know better it looks as if you are now trolling your own post

You have had a lot of helpful advice in response to your OP, by a lot of individuals, then you go and basically shoot them all down by posting this rubbish????

You can’t win with first army list you posted! which I can now tell you just randomly made up! lots of advice given in response, then you post ‘’ well that’s not my list this is my list i win all the time with’’ even if you said they are weak in 5th & 6th ed

‘’You don’t like using Venom spam list’’ but you are using Venom spam for your tournament list
‘’You like CC, to finish close and personal with DE’’ but no incubi/harlequins/wyches

No doubt you will respond saying well this is the only way i can win with DE because they are so restrictive??? Well i have good success with my DE and my list has no resemblance to yours

you have proved nothing in this thread apart from people should think twice before helping you with your so called dilemmas?

It is what it is if you don’t like it sell your DE, stick with your Death Korps which I’m sure is mainly foot soldiers and tanks? Or move on to SM which again is just Marines & tanks

i don’t have a problem with DE i find the codex has lots of options and which is why i run various different lists , also seems like everyone else here don’t have a problem with the way DE work

anyway that’s enough feeding the troll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

koran
21-08-2012, 12:43
Im not going to beat around the bush as I did in my last post. I just think you're an idiot. You complain about people giving you very good advice telling them that they are all wrong. Then post up a useless list you made. Then say you can win some games with what you call a copy and paste list. It just sounds like you cant write a competitive list so have to copy other peoples "power lists" when you cant make an innovative of your own, let along have the tactical ability to make one work. Congratulations, your a genius.

Theocracity
21-08-2012, 15:08
peace brother.... no need for flamer attacks... and here is my exactly tourney list
Archon with blaster, huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield
haemonculus with liquifier guns
4 unit of wracks contain 5 dude, champs plus liquifier guns riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
2 unit of trueborn equip with 4 blasters riding venom with splinter cannon upgrade
3 ravagers
6 reavers with heatlances

there you go. I win this most at time in tourney list (even then, this is a 'copy paste' from the net)

What I meant this is a thread to prove that dark eldar has something missing to win (which is why I still called dilemma). That being said, one of my own primary reasons, is even if you just build PLAIN army list of dark eldar, you still can't win it (odds against most army list around 25% win dark eldar, rest for all other armies when fighting). 2nd reasons would be around on what dark eldar can really do, they don't have that much offensive power despite they really lack defensive power a lot (very2 lots) the compensation is just wrong...

if somebody really did notice another dilemma of mine is that, I keep repeating all those same reasons on 3 out of 4 pages (consistency from the author eh?)

We're getting a bit testy because you're wasting our time. Don't give us a junk list to spend time commenting on if it's not the one you need advice using.

As others have said, list building is important because it defines what you can do and how many units you have to accomplish it. Write a list that focuses on the role of each unit, with redundancies, and keeps in mind the strengths and weaknesses of each unit. Don't multitask if you don't have to, and don't try to do something they're not suited to do.

You should also be playing with as much LOS blocking terrain as you can get. Units that can't see you can't hurt you. If you don't have enough terrain, get more - even if you have to add a Bastion to your list to do so. In fact that may be best, as you can place that where its most useful. You can convert one up to be Dark Eldary, or you can just claim you're using your enemy's weapons against them.

Haunter!
21-08-2012, 17:00
2. 173 for 4 Blasterborn in a Venom. 125 for 5 Haywire Wyches in a Venom. Give 'em test or two and see what happens. The general plan being to run them into any vehicle that costs 60+ points or to use them to kill the last marine or two on an objective and then go to ground in terrain with FnP for the rest of the game. Blasterborn threaten a 24" range and are major targets. Wyches threaten about 21" on average dice and are less likely to be paid attention to.

The clincher, for me? Wyches have pretty good odds of wrecking a Land Raider. They will wreck anything with 3 HP on average dice. Remember to throw that Haywire Grenade before assaulting!

This is brilliant. Thank you for mentioning this "HayWytch" tactic because I would not have even thought of it on my own. I'm definitely giving this a few tries.

scapegoatboy69
21-08-2012, 19:17
This is brilliant. Thank you for mentioning this "HayWytch" tactic because I would not have even thought of it on my own. I'm definitely giving this a few tries.

Watch out for armies like 'nids. Don't be afraid to use 'em as bubblewrap or bait. Remember to pick on weak units or to MAKE A UNIT WEAK before assaulting.

Main problem for me... I can't put Aethersails on a Venom. Those extra few inches really help get to grips with rifleman dreads or tanks.

orkmiester
21-08-2012, 20:25
Watch out for armies like 'nids. Don't be afraid to use 'em as bubblewrap or bait. Remember to pick on weak units or to MAKE A UNIT WEAK before assaulting.

Main problem for me... I can't put Aethersails on a Venom. Those extra few inches really help get to grips with rifleman dreads or tanks.

taking venoms in pairs tend to work rather well together i find. My pair both have a 5 man warior squad in there with a trusty blaster (and the venoms have night shields and an extra SC:p). excellent for zipping around and shooting the hell out of the victim of your choice.

on nids, use your mobility and firepower to whittle them down or run them over with reavers, i tried that in a 2v2 game last week blimey they are ace at it, they saw off gargoyles and gave a trygon a nasty suprise:evilgrin:.

on the upgrades note, i haven't bothered taking away my flickerfields as sometimes i don't need to move my skimmers owing to the tactical situation and its an insurance policy if am going second without night fighting in effect at the start;).

Sithlord
22-08-2012, 03:55
‘’You don’t like using Venom spam list’’ but you are using Venom spam for your tournament list
‘’You like CC, to finish close and personal with DE’’ but no incubi/harlequins/wyches

Never said I don't like venom spam list, it's just I'm force to use in order to win in tourney environment. I like CC, but that was in 3rd edition can be wield effectively since at that time dark eldar got 'auto' pinning weapons, divide and conquer and I do use incubis and wyches just don't par in CC even against basic tac squad, they barely scratch it (thanks to their S3 ), not to mention if they have to deal with other dedicated assault unit such as assault squad.


No doubt you will respond saying well this is the only way i can win with DE because they are so restrictive??? Well i have good success with my DE and my list has no resemblance to yours

This is just something a theory from blizzard games developer when they said about balancing factions. Is your odd of winning and losing close on 50/50? If yes, then the two faction are balance. Try against all armies. See how it goes. So far in my experience, and maybe dark eldar par on 30/70. But that's just me.


It is what it is if you don’t like it sell your DE, stick with your Death Korps which I’m sure is mainly foot soldiers and tanks? Or move on to SM which again is just Marines & tanks


ALL infantries. Sadly I must wait on the new updates to restart playing them.


EDITEDIT: One more piece of useful training: swap armies with your opponent, if they're willing! It can really help you figure out how to beat a faction or pinpoint their weaknesses.

Well, some games allow me to exchange armies. Of the games with imperial guard, two times though one with raider list the other with venom list. I play IG overwhelm my own raider list with nobody survive, against venom ones, it's indeed slightly better. Survive at least but not winning for venom dark eldar (if I play as venom against IG, I have phyric victory instead). Well that's just how dark eldar works now.

and regarding someone think I'm an idiot. There is a limit of bad phrase even if just on forums. Tell me, does any of my post does personally insult any you? I only being skeptical on dark eldar codex and NOT ON YOU.

PrivateLucky
22-08-2012, 04:42
I have had great success with Dark Eldar this edition. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Don't play like you would with any other army, you have to adapt. Sometimes I even like going second to respond to my opponents deployment or deny my opponents flank because he deployed to scattered. Focus on one flank and as he is trying to reposition destroy what you can reach. Use cover, range, and superior fire power to overwhelm your opponent. I have had games where I don't lose a single model or have a dice rolled to even hit me because I was always out of range. Those games are boring (well fun for me, not my opponent :D) but there are also games where I get caught out of position and lose half my army in a turn.

Dark Eldar are a strong army, but they are tough to play right. They don't allow for mistakes. Either you have a flawless game or you lose a lot of your army and try to scrap together a victory. If Dark Eldar aren't your style try a more resilient army like Marines or Necrons maybe?

BigHammer
22-08-2012, 20:34
A benefit. But move 6 further to do what? Get closer to an enemy that can mince them in close combat on 3+? Any turn you are moving like that, you are not shooting. DE have always been a race against time army. Any turn you are not hitting your opponent, they are hitting you. If not, they're moving and adapting to your game plan. Preparing. Or maybe those drop pods are descending, or demons summoning. My experience with DE since 3rd ed has always been Turn 1-2 kill what scares me the most. If its still standing, I'm dead. Table them, or they table you. Very seldom a middle ground until 5th ed with the classic turn 5 objective grab, and pray for a 1-2 to end the game.

That 6" move could be the difference between sitting in the open relying on your jink save to prevent you from dying or finishing your move out of sight behind a bastion. And if you intend to charge the enemy next turn, it's the 6" that you "lost" coming into 6th ed. for assaulting from disembarking transports. I can see why, in theory, you might be against the idea of throwing lightly armoured, low toughness troops into close combat against anything, but "an enemy that can mince them in close combat on 3+"? You're playing Dark Eldar, friend, not Tau. You hit first 90% of the time. You have access to troops with specialist close combat weapons, combat drugs, pain tokens... if you're hitting the enemy with so few S3 attacks that you might not as well be, you've not built your army for assault. Wracks have poison 4+. Wyches can be S4/5, or reroll to wound, or WS5. Hellions are S4, potentially S5, potentially S6! Grotesques with a haemonculus attached charge at S6. The idea is that the maneouverability of the army assists in initiating combat. We initiate with overwhelming force on a single part of the enemy army and wipe it out.


An amazing benefit. But their save dropped. 3+ cover save is gone. They die quicker, getting a cover of 4+. Sure you can decide in the shooting phase when to move, but again appreciate this is a game where people are moving faster, charging further. They're more deadly, but again more brittle. Well I say more deadly, that's a lie. They still do the same damage. Hammer of Wrath? Getting jetbikes into CC concerns me, unless its a guard unit on its deathbed.

Every DE general worth his/her salt should know that Reavers are tougher than they used to be. Previously you got a 3+ cover save if you turbo boosted, nothing if you didn't. Now they get a 4+ cover save if they move at all, 3+ if they turbo boost, not to mention never having to take dangerous terrain tests. Look up "Skilled Rider" in the BRB, you'll thank me.


12 points a pop? For something now getting pummeled by snap fire and flamer hits that bounces off of MEQ? That now has to walk to the enemy cause it can't use a web way? It can leap off a raider, but that raider's only moving 6. Then the raider gets popped. Your 12 point wyches take Str 4 hits on a 6+ save. Or maybe you assault a transport. Next turn you've got 10 whatevers staring you in the face. Even guardsmen rapid firing can be a pain to wyches worth twice their points.

I use my wyches successfully from raiders every game I play. Sure, not all of them make it, it's not a war without casualties, but what you're describing is a worst-case scenario. DE have all the tricks they need to manipulate the odds in their favour. And if you think MEQ doesn't care about a couple of wych squads charging into one of their tac squads, you'd be sorely mistaken. Flamers are now anaethema to us, I'll grant you that, but that makes more of a case for using wracks as a charge-first unit.


Makes them awful. Your opponent can walk forward 6 and shoot max range with a rapid fire weapon, negating 10 points of wargear. Before, they didn't have that bonus, and there was an element of uncertainty, where foes might lose shooting from a unit entirely.

Add 6 to your measurements. Enemy has a 24" range? stop 31" away from them. Measure it exactly, because now you can. Laugh as your 10 pts of wargear negate an entire squad's shooting on one of your units.


If the Raider moves, when cover saves are just as attainable. When they're not, we had the arrival on turn 2 trick. We don't get jink saves if our opponent gets the first turn, leading to indirect fire, or whatever else obliterating us.

You're complaining about something we got for free? Wow. Jink is a godsend. It has counters, it's not 100% reliable, but it's something we didn't have before that we get now at no extra cost. We still have access to Flickerfields. They didn't get erased from the codex when you weren't looking.


FORTS - Dark Eldar do not fortify. They don't erect an Aegis defence line and sip a cup of tea. I know I'm old school but we were founded on the principal of 3rd Ed. We had a mission! Always attack. Never the defenders. Other people can disagree, and in their own heads they're absolutely right. In my head, my vision of my army, which led me to collecting them is this. ALWAYS ATTACK. The only thing they build is a jenga tower of a planetary population's spleens for the relief force to find, 10 days/weeks/years too late. Lets say we do fortify. What do we buy to protect an army that cannot look after itself in CC, is terrified of flamers (which will find you when you hide in cover). Then there's the cost. 30% cost increase on GW Terrain since the new edition. I know this is not 100% irrelevant, but please guys understand everything I've said so far it my opinion, and my principles. If you want fortifications, go bananas. I suppose Commoragh looks like Emo Stalingrad sometimes.

From a fluff sense you're right, it is out of character for a DE army to use fortifications. Unless it's the enemy's and we're having a laugh shooting down their planes with their own AA installations. Hilarious. That said, you've changed tack here. You're talking about the competitiveness of the DE army, not the character. The fact is DE got access to fortifications just the same as every other army, and we can use them pretty well too. Hobbling yourself by saying it doesn't fit the fluff is voluntarily throwing away a tool that could make the difference between victory and defeat. Not very competitive thinking, and goes against the tone of your other arguments.


ALLIES - When it was first said DE helped Iyanden I recall many a DE player feeling that some shoe-horned nonsense only eclipsed by Mortarion losing to Draigo, the Silent King and Dante locking lips at the school disco, and Space Wolves thinking the Red Corsairs are so epic cause they stood a chance of dying. DE should frankly find other DE to be distrustful and only working together in the most dire of occasions :p

Again, in a competitive scenario, are you going to knock the ability to take a Farseer to the table? You're talking fluff again, and that's irrelevant to what's being discussed.


Likewise, a massive benefit, but with a 4+ penetrating hit from Lascannons, 3+ from AP1 destroying a Raider, and bolters/gauss/sluggas/shootas/shuriken catapults/tyranid blobs being able to rip us to pieces, our survivability was always about speed and stealth. See point one. We move faster. We shoot less. We forgo a turn of shooting to get into a good spot? Doable.

Our vehicles have saving throws. How many other armies can say that for theirs, across the board? Getting shot by a railgun hurts. No doubt. You can use your speed to avoid that, though, by blocking its line of sight, while the units better suited to killing the big guns set about them.


I really appreciate that Scapegoat. Genuinely, thank you, that's decent of you. I know I'm a negative nancy (my friends would agree). I'm curious to see your input. I've gone from a 80-85% win rate to losing badly. Though part of this has been my mentality. Last 3-4 games I've played, I put my army down and played to lose to get it over so quickly. I am truly hating this edition. All the points you've listed above are correct.My opponents are

hybrid assault/death company rush Blood Angels + Meph
rhino rush + deathclaw rush + oblit/contemptor/decimator emperor's children
crimson fist turtle + camo cloak + tech marine + TH/SS Termies
Space Wolf Long Fang / Wolf Guard spam

List is usually

Sathonyx
3 x 4 Blasterborn + Venom + SC x 2
3 x Raider + 10 Warriors + BL + SC + Sybarite
3 x Ravager

1500 (just under)

... and salvation. I'm glad to see that you want to up your game a bit and learn from other DE players, there are plenty of fine ones out there (and, from the looks of it, a fair few in this thread alone).

I see where you're coming from, I do. Watching helplessly as a raider full of wyches gets blown up, and you feel lucky that 3/10 survived is brutal. It hurts. It's demoralising. Watching the next game where your opponent brings 3 Furioso Dreadnoughts to the table and you get the charge with your wyches at full strength? Makes all the pain worth it, trust me. Dark Eldar are a high risk/reward army. I've played games where I've tabled my opponents in a few turns thanks to some lucky saving throws and lucky terrain. I've played others where I've done everything right and still come up short, watching in agony as my units just fail at everything they do. Usually when I roll a 1 on my combat drugs table roll...

So, your army, Sathonyx on his own, then? No hellions-as-troops to back him up? He's one of my favourite characters, but he's not being used to his full potential unless you've got at least a squad of 10 hellions with him. If you're looking for a cheap alternative, a succubus with a venom blade and either an electro-corrosive whip or an agoniser comes to less than Sathonyx and is deadly in close combat. Or you could shave a bit elsewhere and go for an Archon, or Sliscus (who is pretty nasty in his own right).

What setup do you have on your 3 ravagers? 9 lances is nice, but switching one across to disintegrators (if you haven't already) is hilarious for going up against 2+ armour units. Sure we can't use Incubi for that anymore, but if we use the dis-ravagers instead, the Incubi can go tear up some 3+ armour units and still laugh all the way. I would suggest, though, that 3 ravagers in addition to the blasterborn is maybe a bit too much. There's a point where 21 dark lance/blaster shots per turn becomes a bit redundant. Orks and nids know exactly where that point lies.

Eversor253
23-08-2012, 05:05
if DE are too hard, play space marines, the rest of us that aren't complaining seem to be doing fine with our armies. Compared to playing their craftworld kin its like playing on easy mode to be honest. They have an option for practically every army, now with allies they even get access to psychers... What more could you want? They hit hard, and die hard, you win big, or lose big.

Learn to bring their guns to bear, that's what their bread and butter is, the CC is just to mop up the whittled down squads.

Hawthorne
23-08-2012, 05:37
All this reads as (from the people complaining) Dark Eldar don't work the exact way they used to and I'm resistant to change; they must suck.

Same thing, as far as I'm concerned, that happened when Tyranids got updated for 5th. People wanted to use the same army list as before and it didn't work anymore so they must suck.


By the way, I love the "AP3=useless" priceless. Apparently if it can't cut the armor of a very small selection of units (terminators, some characters, sanguinary guard, etc.) it must be useless.
Las cannons are useless because they can only kill 1 Ork Boy at a time.

Corporeal
23-08-2012, 05:52
I must be one of the freaks you people only hear about.

I'm still running two venoms with dual cannons.. but this time I've stuck on nightshields to give myself a bit of an edge. the less retaliatory fire, the better.

ravagers.. have gone hybrid. that's right. HYBRID. two lances with a disintegrator. with aethersails. I love having extra movement during the movement phase, coupled with a nice nudge in the shooting phase.

I run carbine/cannonborn with the duke. the amount of wounds I can crank out with them is just staggering. they are my go-to unit for taking a good chunk out of multiwound models and hordes.

FreyrRagnar
23-08-2012, 06:44
Not sure if mentioned before, but mandrakes rock.
Take a unit of 5 to 10, but a haemonculus in there with a portal. Thanks to the stealth rule you have a cover save. Then the haemonculus gives the unit a pain token wich gives them a FnP, yesh, it's only 5+ ow wait, they even start out with baleblast then? Yesh they do, that is 2 shots from every drake you got in there. That's 10 to 20 shots at str 4 ap 4 that can pin your foe.

scapegoatboy69
23-08-2012, 09:18
(if I play as venom against IG, I have phyric victory instead). Well that's just how dark eldar works now.

You're trying to outshoot one of the best shooty armies in the game. Of course you're going to have a hard time of it.

So, don't try to beat them at their own game. Change the rules and bring something different.


@ Ragnar: You aren't infiltrating them, right?

FreyrRagnar
23-08-2012, 09:25
Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

FreyrRagnar
23-08-2012, 09:25
Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

BigHammer
23-08-2012, 15:44
Actually, I do infiltrate them. You can do that now, and where depends on if I deploy first or not.
Ow, prefer to infiltrate into a building.

A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.

Drasanil
23-08-2012, 18:38
By the way, I love the "AP3=useless" priceless. Apparently if it can't cut the armor of a very small selection of units (terminators, some characters, sanguinary guard, etc.) it must be useless. Las cannons are useless because they can only kill 1 Ork Boy at a time.

Didn't think that through did you? DE are low strength, low toughness, low armour and high initiative. The very purpose of those newly AP3 weapons was to give them a fighting chance against that specific 'very small selection of units'. Hence why most people consider them to have lost their use, because most of the things you'd actually want to point them at will more often than not be 2+ armour save totting combat goons. Your ill-conceived lascannon/ork comparison falls flat on it's face, because lascannons were never designed to pick off ork boyz and subsequently prevented from doing so adequately.

Frep
23-08-2012, 19:39
Didn't think that through did you? DE are low strength, low toughness, low armour and high initiative. The very purpose of those newly AP3 weapons was to give them a fighting chance against that specific 'very small selection of units'. Hence why most people consider them to have lost their use, because most of the things you'd actually want to point them at will more often than not be 2+ armour save totting combat goons. Your ill-conceived lascannon/ork comparison falls flat on it's face, because lascannons were never designed to pick off ork boyz and subsequently prevented from doing so adequately.

And incubi were never reallly intended to kill those special units. Virtually every terminator outside of the Deathwing has been rocking a Hammer and Storm shiled for the last three or four years and would slap around any incubi they faced. That's why the DE have disintigrator Ravagers. There are a few targets that Incbubi can't hurt, but lots they can really put the pain on.

Yes, Mega Nobs and Termis are out, but did you really stand much of a chance against them beforehand? Honestly to me the AP3 of Incubi is like a friendly reminder saying "you really shouldn't be messing with those guys anyhow."

Drasanil
23-08-2012, 19:57
And incubi were never reallly intended to kill those special units. Virtually every terminator outside of the Deathwing has been rocking a Hammer and Storm shiled for the last three or four years and would slap around any incubi they faced. That's why the DE have disintigrator Ravagers. There are a few targets that Incbubi can't hurt, but lots they can really put the pain on.

Yes, Mega Nobs and Termis are out, but did you really stand much of a chance against them beforehand? Honestly to me the AP3 of Incubi is like a friendly reminder saying "you really shouldn't be messing with those guys anyhow."

Was thinking more about the Huskblade, Electro Whip and Agonisers for Archons and Succubi, especially the Huskblade given it's high price tag, with regards to introduction of challenges and the big boost 2+ save characters got from them. But yes the Incubi too, they're not exactly cheap and they're supposed to be dark eldar's premiere melee unit there's really no reason they shouldn't be packing AP2 weapons. Taking expensive elite slot melee units for the 'privilege' of chewing through tac marines does grate a little.

I don't think they should be wrecking Meganobz, non-TH/SS Termies and the like, but with proper support it should still be viable soften them first then sweep in to clean up.

(As aside this is my only real gripe with DE in 6e, the lack of viable AP2 melee weapons, I know they're not primarily a combat army, but having the option to get stuck in once in a while would be fun, we're not Tau.)

Sildani
24-08-2012, 00:54
Wow, some really good insights here. A question please: what's a good loadout for a Succubus these days that's killy and cost effective? She'll be run with a squad of wyches.

adreal
24-08-2012, 04:05
A venom blade on a Succubus wouldn't be too bad, she should get alot of wounds in

BigHammer
24-08-2012, 04:15
Wow, some really good insights here. A question please: what's a good loadout for a Succubus these days that's killy and cost effective? She'll be run with a squad of wyches.

I run mine with an electro-corrosive whip and a venom blade. Sometimes with haywires, sometimes without. Less than the base cost of a space marine captain, before he buys any wargear. Can't handle 2+ saves, but that's what all our AP2 shooting is for. The EC whip can really mess up a space marine's day and gives you AP3 for going up against regular troopers. Against anything with high toughness or low armour saves the venom blade is pretty deadly. Currently have her in a unit of Grotesques and a haemonculus, so she's at least S4 on the charge (possibly higher with combat drugs), which means she's usually as good as or better off than having an agoniser; 4+ to wound if you're str 5 is a bit annoying, the whip has no such downside. Wound a high-strength model once or twice with the whip then finish them with the venom blade (unless they're not very tough, of course).

As a side-note, you can put a succubus in a squad of craftworld warlocks, give one of the warlocks enhance and she's now WS/I 9. Or do the same with Lelith. WS/I 10 (which is essentially +1 attack as well...). The only embuggrance is you can't transport them together :|

Saunders
24-08-2012, 04:17
Can't the Incubus squad leader do AP2?

Drasanil
24-08-2012, 04:20
Can't the Incubus squad leader do AP2?

Yes, if you get him the Darth Maul weapons.

FreyrRagnar
24-08-2012, 09:32
A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.
Da-amn, mis read it. Back to the drawing board for me then.

FreyrRagnar
24-08-2012, 09:33
A character can't start the game in a unit of infiltrators. Even if they don't "infiltrate". Unless that character also has the infiltrate rule, but Haemonculi don't. It's unfortunate, but thems the rules.
Da-amn, mis read it. Back to the drawing board for me then.

Ahra Returns
24-08-2012, 12:28
Okay first of all this is ehemmm a whining thread :p But I mean no offense though, this thread aside from being a whiner also serve as summary of all these 2 years playing dark eldar who are made by Phil Kelly. So let me explain my experience playing the dark eldar.


So conclusion... dark eldar are becoming increasingly weak in 6th edition but that's only because they already weak in 1st place. Phill kelly failed to deliver what he would called glasshammer as he forgot to increase offensive power (most unit don't have them, the only who has it is archon, incubi and royal court). My hope is for future updates for dark eldar (either codex or FAQ if they are wanting it to change it immediately) that the glasshammer style armies can be reach for phil and GW. And as for you guys, is there any counter-argument or some backing argument to what I said? Discuss....

OK,

Well - to preface, I've been playing Dark Eldar since the dawn of 3rd ed - not that I can actually prove that over so remote a medium as the internet, but it's worth mentioning I feel. So my experience comes from many, many, many games over numerous editions - the most successful of which was categorically 5th - I loved being a Dark Eldar player last edition.

I had great success with Dark Eldar in 5th, without blowing my 'own trumpet' and not that it particularly means anything, but every local tournament I attended I won, I took best Dark Eldar at ToS when I went and roughly 60% of my victories arose from tabling my opponent - this isn't self-aggrandizment, it's just as a preface to any argument similar to the following:

'@soupcat
I don't mean to disrespect, but you are talking like you never play as dark eldar OR you do play dark eldar but not very long time OR you do play dark eldar for long time but your gaming group do not have power gamer or sort (I really like the last one but extremely rare in any cases).'

Most of my friends are 'competitive' players, they run the most optimal lists they can devise. The two tournament games I lost, in 5th, were to Imperial Guard Chimera spam and Grey Knight Acolyte Psyback + Psyfleman spam.

Armies that are quite good at generating the pre-requisite number of shots to take down an army of light skimmers.

In 6th - I'm finding that my army functions in primarily the same manner as it did in 5th - OK, tactics like going all reserve don't work - but the core of how the DEldar codex operates is fundementally the same. You mention that it's your belief that 'Venom Spam' is the only way to play, but that depends on how you define venom spam. If you're still running blaster borns, 5 man warrior/venoms and tri-ravager, that's what I consider Venom Spam. But that's not what I used in 5th - and found my list, in a mirror match, had the advantage against a V-spam list.

I hesitate to say it, but even last edition we weren't a close combat army. Sure, you could fill your list with things that hit people at short range, but maximizing firepower is where our strength lay last edition and where it lies now. I can appreciate, if you wanted to play close combat Dark Eldar, then you might be upset this edition thanks to the changes to Incubi and Agonisers - I don't really want to comment on that as it's not my way of playing.

What my games have taught me so far that Wyches are now a bit of a liability. I used to take a squad for counter-assault/tarpitting, but RCL and Overwatch, combined with flamers, means that whatever Wyches I had before have been trimmed as 'fat'. Haywire Grenades are great, but I'd rather get them via Scourge.

I've also found that, though I got INCREDIBLE use out of Razorwings last edition, they're not so hot this ed. I'd much rather take a single Void Raven and then 2 ravagers. Quite simply; I've found that focusing on redundancy, firepower and Lance/Splinter is the most effective way to play right now. At least in my local environment.

The list I'm currently trying (because I have a large collection and like to make alterations) is as follows: - This is not, by any means, what I'm suggesting is the best list ever, it's simply something that I'm testing that has been victorious so far.

Archon
- Blaster (BS7 Blaster with Precision Shots is good), Agoniser, Haywire Grenades and Shadowfields - 130 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Warrior Squad
- 10 Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Raider with Nightshield and Splinter Racks - 195 pts

Warrior Squad *Archon joins this unit
- 8 Warriors, Blaster, Raider with Nightshield and Splinter Racks - 167 pts

Warrior Squad
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 135 pts

Warrior Squad
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 135 pts

Void Raven, 2 Shatterfield Missiles, Flickerfield and Nightshield - 185 pts

Ravager, 3 Dark Lances and Nightshield - 115 pts

Ravager, 3 Dark Lances and Nightshield - 115 pts

1,499 pts.

Do I ever need to assault? Do I ever need to deal with Overwatch, RCL or not being able to move 12, dismount and charge? Nope. So those 'Nerfs' don't really affect me.

Last game I killed 450 pts of Tyranids in my first shooting phase, and my shooting was pretty average. Moving 6 and firing splinter rifles from the back of vehicles is amazing, especially in combination with Splinter Racks and Raiders.

OK - I'd be the first to say ''One off examples don't mean anything'' - but it's not been a one off. With the amount of lances we have at our disposal (and the changes with Hull Points) I don't struggle with vehicles, I really don't struggle at all with massed troops. Deathstars can be attacked from the sides and torrented away and even if something does reach my lines in can assault a small unit... then be shot to pieces.

Use your speed to pull the enemy into to open areas, we get a 5+ cover save just for moving so make sure your vehicles don't stand still. Make sure you don't clump up so things like Manticores can't auto you to death. Yeah, 3 Vendetta's aren't pleasant but (without any troops inside) that's a THIRD of the guys army at 1500. Take strategic traits for your general to affect his reserve rolls of gain Nightfighting (which is also a massive buff for us - 3+ cover save whilst being in range with splinter cannons/lances? Yes please).

Another question - why does a roll of a 4+ on the damage chart affect our fliers any more than an enemy flier? We're not open topped and at least we can take a flickerfield for a 5++ save - other fliers have to Jink which means they can only snap-shot back. Yes, Vendetta's are better and cheaper than our fliers, but there are 'auto-include' points efficient choices in each army.

Let's break down this opposing army you posted:

1 libby
2 assault squad of 5 men (infernus pistol and powerweapons), each ride in razorback with heavy flamers
1 assault squad of 10 men, in rhino (this one fitted with all those infernus pistols and powerfist)
3 baal predator (both fitter with heavy bolter sponson, one of them being inferno cannon)
2 predator (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons)
1 stormraven gunship

Bolters and Inferno Pistols? Hello Nightshield. Assault cannons on Baals? Hello Nightshield. Outflanking? Hello strategic traits and Dark Eldar mobility. If the Baals are outflanking, that's 4 things he has in reserve. Play aggressively and wipe out what's on the table.

Flamer templates are only an issue if your guys are on the table and you don't have to dismount until the end game - more than enough time to de-fang those predators. I came up against a virtually identical army in the last tournament I went to and didn't find it a struggle at all.

The Vendetta + Manticore army... now THAT is something to worry about :D - don't clump up, try and manouvre for side shots on the tanks as much as possible, but that's a much much stronger army than the Angel list. At least from a taking it on with ShootyDeldar.

As much as you might not rate raiders, they can and do get into side arcs and put hurt on tanks. AP 2 means that if you get a penetrating roll, you've a one in 3 of taking out a Leman Russ. They have a psychological impact against anyone who's played Dark Eldar before.

All I can say is, concentrate your Lance fire to take out vehicles and you should have more than enough splinter weapons (in a shooty force) to kill the infantry.

Rant over - but Dark Eldar aren't weak, not by a long stretch, at least not in my experience of playing them in tournaments over 3 and a bit editions.


Also, incase anyone missed, Reavers have Skilled Rider so get a 3++ coversave when turbo-bossting.
*2 cents*.

Jayden63
24-08-2012, 17:11
Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts

Trueborn
- 3 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon and Nightshield - 161 pts


I hadn't considered this for trueborn squad, but now that heavyies can move and shoot the DLs seem like they would be a good replacement for the 4 blasterborn I used to take. Less shots, but much greater range and keeping the whole thing out of harms way.

I think I will try this.

Haunter!
24-08-2012, 19:49
I hadn't considered this for trueborn squad, but now that heavyies can move and shoot the DLs seem like they would be a good replacement for the 4 blasterborn I used to take. Less shots, but much greater range and keeping the whole thing out of harms way.

I think I will try this.

They also don't get prioritized as much as blasterborn from what I've been seeing. People don't expect those three man squads to do much damage until it's too late.

Ahra Returns
29-08-2012, 11:52
I hadn't considered this for trueborn squad, but now that heavyies can move and shoot the DLs seem like they would be a good replacement for the 4 blasterborn I used to take. Less shots, but much greater range and keeping the whole thing out of harms way.

I think I will try this.

I used to run Blasterborn but wasn't such a fan of the limited range.

Now, as you say, if the Venom with the Truborn really needs to relocate it can and they can still snap shot. The extra range has been priceless for me, I've found so far, and it really lets you put the hurt out early on, without exposing a vulnerable 2HP transport to close range enemy fire. Luckily the Venom has a Flickerfield as standard, so it doesn't have to worry about moving to claim a Jink save.

Haunter! is correct - Lanceborn, for some reason, don't draw as much immediate attention as 4 blasterborn. Even though they can hurt from earlier on in the game and cover a good margin of the table with lance fire.

I won a couple more games this week, putting me on a 5 wins no losses in 6th ed! So quite happy with Dark Eldar at the moment.

I guess I'll have to go find some guard players... see how I hold up then :(

Also; I'm loving the blaster archon - mine seems to be quite lucky at rolling sixes to hit and it's really nice to have a BS7 blaster.