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Shibboleth
18-08-2012, 09:09
I don't care why they do it, I just find it insulting, that any news or WIP pics or information for what's coming up has been clamped down on so hard by the draconian dictatorship behind GW's facade.
It shows that the fans here on these forums, and others like it, the ones who love GW's games, models, stories, and everything about the hobby, who pay GW their income, who are GW's Base, their life blood and very existence... are treated as either A) Enemies, to be wary of, despised for any victory they might achieve (ie. leaked pics or rumours), OR B) Suckers to be exploited, ie. manipulated by marketing strategies aimed at insta-buy hype.

I don't like being viewed that way, especially by some monstrous corporation.

Just be human, be open, and let everyone in on the deal.

I've been out of the hobby for the last 3 years or so, because the Chaos Marine Codex was so lacklustre, and I don't care for any other races - but with Chaos coming back, the few leaks that have come out brought me back to see what's up (though it looks more like they're merely finishing off the 'half-job' they started with the last one. I still don't think my Lord will get a Retinue - but Cultists are coool.)
Yet at the store there's nothing, and noone's talking.

I didn't even feel like talking to the staff at the store (what's left of the one's I used to know since they've just sacked all the casuals), because I know they're bound by the same GW policies - and so I view them with the same suspicion they view me (What am I doing back? Am I gonna try and pocket something?) If you bring up anything 'coming soon', beyond what the current WD reveals they clam up.

I hate secrets and I hate being manipulated - I'm not an enemy - I'm a customer.

shades of blue and grey
18-08-2012, 10:13
I know what you mean about gw, it does start to **** you off when theres no hint of what
Is coming out next intill white dwarf comes out. As a customer who doesn't have tons o spare money
at a moments notice its difficult to buy the next big release without being able to save up.
Unlike a third of the customers who get the new toys given to them by their parents.
Gw are getting better at hinting at whats coming next, look at the spine of white dwarf and you
will notice some big green marines, but thats about it even at games day there tight liped.
I dont expect gw to hand a magazine out with pictures,dates and prices of whats next to come
but at least they could give us hints or clues even write stories in white dwarf that people could speculate over and get people
more hyped up for a release over a longer amount of time.

On the other hand if you look at it from a business point of view if your customers
saw what was coming then you cant control what they buy so easyly.

Sorry if im rambling.

arkirk246
18-08-2012, 10:14
i feel your pain? ever since the clamp down i have found myself less and less interested, in the up and coming releases, before i use to get all excited on what was coming out , now one minute nothing and then all of a sudden a new codex/models, i don’t pay any attention anymore,

Turrican1983
18-08-2012, 10:18
It's ironic that they've gone back to the old preview model of showing new stuff in White Dwarf.
But that strategy only worked before the internet existed!

Just look at how they put out a really poor teaser video one day and suddenly all the new minis are leaked all over the web.
Think GW should seriously rethink their strategy and do web teasers with instant preorders rather than trying to get their new stuff in print first.

It's just not working.

xxRavenxx
18-08-2012, 10:26
I find it hilarious that people think they are "the enemy" purely because GW is clamping down on leaks.

Putting aside whether or not the strategy works, GW are doing what dozens of other companies do.

They keep quiet, and then within a "close" timeframe of each other unveil the product, then place it on sale to generate interest.

GW have the hard time that people are directly interested in what comes next. A company making the next model of vacuum cleaner have the advantage that their audience isn't champing at the bit to see what is next.

Don't mistake this for some personal slight from GW to you. They're just another company doing what most companies do.




Now, to address the strategy: Look at the damage full spoilers has done to MTG releases. Only the newest players, who havn't realised they can look up the content get hyped about new sets. Look at how PP announce models 8 months in advance, and half the players have forgotten they want the model by the time it actually turns up. The implementation might not be quite right, but the idea is sound. Spoiler, a week or two of hype, then the models.

The Dire Troll
18-08-2012, 10:27
Does not bother me a bit, I dont see it as any different, I have my hobby money and if nothing new I want comes out I will just buy something else, paint, more troops ect, or if nothing takes my fancy I will get something from privateer press, and this is how I functioned before. I have never encountered that with the staff at my local , but I love geedub Exeter. But I do see how the lock down has differing effects on everyone, I am just glad it has not dampened my warhammer/40k spirit.

shades of blue and grey
18-08-2012, 10:28
Maybe all these rumours are started by gw you could look at it as cheap advertising. And thers so many rumours around that staff must be getting fired right left and centre or not,it would be like working with the inquisition up there!

zoggin-eck
18-08-2012, 10:31
Don't mistake this for some personal slight from GW to you. They're just another company doing what most companies do.

So true. GW just seem to think this system works, or is the best choice for them. Right or wrong, I dare say they have a better idea of how it works than you do.

Also, take this thread to the GW general section, or better yet, just post in one of the many similar threads.

Woodsman
18-08-2012, 10:56
Meh I really couldn't careless. I started playing before they had a website, (or was it just that I didn't have internet??) So it doesn't really bother me. I know what armies I like and teasers/rumours/pics aren't going to convince me to start collecting something e.g. marines, only a good model set (IMHO of course!) will do that so it really makes no difference!

shades of blue and grey
18-08-2012, 11:05
Im just saying that us grown ups with bills ect find it very difficult to justify buying a £45 rule book with a months notice when if we had a bit more time i could at least say to the mrs "iv been saving up" especialy when that is a must have. But

shades of blue and grey
18-08-2012, 11:07
But thats a individual experence and im not saying gw should change for me.

Wintermute
18-08-2012, 11:18
I've moved this thread to GW General

Wintermute

AngelofSorrow
18-08-2012, 11:31
The release strategy is fine by me. I find it very reasonable and as much as you think the Internet leaks reach everyone you are wrong. Most people that wander in to my local GW have no clue.
It's a smart strategy that may not work for everyone. I can say with certainty that those it doesn't work for are a vocal minority.


Ready for eternal war!

xxRavenxx
18-08-2012, 11:32
Im just saying that us grown ups with bills ect find it very difficult to justify buying a £45 rule book with a months notice when if we had a bit more time i could at least say to the mrs "iv been saving up" especialy when that is a must have. But

Something which would help you, and quieten down other halves, would be to arrange to have a monthly budget.

That way every month there is definately say... £25 to spend on models. When you don't spend it, you have more on the next month.

This is, pure and simple, how I afford anything I could dream of in models. I keep a slush fund. You could spring a new model on me 5 minutes from now, and I can buy it, because theres about £150 sat in the bank marked "for gaming", which has been building up for a while.

shades of blue and grey
18-08-2012, 11:35
Great idea thanks

Killgore
18-08-2012, 13:20
I don't care why they do it, I just find it insulting, that any news or WIP pics or information for what's coming up has been clamped down on so hard by the draconian dictatorship behind GW's facade.
It shows that the fans here on these forums, and others like it, the ones who love GW's games, models, stories, and everything about the hobby, who pay GW their income, who are GW's Base, their life blood and very existence... are treated as either A) Enemies, to be wary of, despised for any victory they might achieve (ie. leaked pics or rumours), OR B) Suckers to be exploited, ie. manipulated by marketing strategies aimed at insta-buy hype.

I don't like being viewed that way, especially by some monstrous corporation.

Just be human, be open, and let everyone in on the deal.

I've been out of the hobby for the last 3 years or so, because the Chaos Marine Codex was so lacklustre, and I don't care for any other races - but with Chaos coming back, the few leaks that have come out brought me back to see what's up (though it looks more like they're merely finishing off the 'half-job' they started with the last one. I still don't think my Lord will get a Retinue - but Cultists are coool.)
Yet at the store there's nothing, and noone's talking.

I didn't even feel like talking to the staff at the store (what's left of the one's I used to know since they've just sacked all the casuals), because I know they're bound by the same GW policies - and so I view them with the same suspicion they view me (What am I doing back? Am I gonna try and pocket something?) If you bring up anything 'coming soon', beyond what the current WD reveals they clam up.

I hate secrets and I hate being manipulated - I'm not an enemy - I'm a customer.


I see what’s happened, we've all been spoilt in the past with some shocking leaks that probably cost GW thousands in lost revenue, like when everyone rushed off to download the early leaked Ork and Chaos Marines codex and now people think GW is evil because they are trying to regain some form of control over their marketing plans.

I disagree with your verdict that GW regards customers as 'Enemies and Suckers', imho it’s a simple case of some GW gamers throwing their toys out the pram because they no longer get any early candy.

GW is a business, and customers should have the common sense to continue their life’s as normal and not worry about 'what might be around the corner', and when a new product does appear customers should analyse and evaluate if it’s worth a purchase without needing to rush out and impulse buy. This may require waiting till next payday, but anyone should be capable of even basic budgeting to ensure they can get a new release in a reasonable timeframe.

In the meantime I welcome anyone who’s unhappy with GW's secrecy to go look at other companies who do the same, for example Apple who have a deep culture of secrecy, good luck finding many leaks with their products, and they have a customer base in the multi-millions.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
18-08-2012, 13:29
Apple have a culture of secrecy but we know iPhone 5 is coming. That's not a secret, just exactly what it does is. There time frame of telling you what's coming and the eventual release is a lot longer than one week.

Host Tar
18-08-2012, 13:43
Doesn't bother me - whether I know months, weeks or hours in advance, or not at all, I still get excited by new releases. There are enough of the old releases for me to look at/buy/paint to keep me going. I don't need more & more new stuff to keep me drooling just as long as I know SOMETHING is coming. In some ways, knowing weeks in advance gives me time to get under-excited.

But that's just me :)

tiger g
18-08-2012, 13:46
Apple have a culture of secrecy but we know iPhone 5 is coming. That's not a secret, just exactly what it does is. There time frame of telling you what's coming and the eventual release is a lot longer than one week.

And after iphone5 will be 6. So? Again no idea what it does. Just like a new codex we know they are coming ( except wood elves) just do not know what will be new. Actually spend more with the secrecy as I buy what I like. Old way was always waiting for three releases down the road.

Omniassiah
18-08-2012, 14:00
Now, to address the strategy: Look at the damage full spoilers has done to MTG releases. Only the newest players, who havn't realised they can look up the content get hyped about new sets. Look at how PP announce models 8 months in advance, and half the players have forgotten they want the model by the time it actually turns up. The implementation might not be quite right, but the idea is sound. Spoiler, a week or two of hype, then the models.

Never seen the issue with MTG. Most of the newer players aren't hurt by missing the spoilers because they wouldn't know what to do with the information if they have it. Releases are just as popular due to the organized play (MTGs Real strength) and people who do know where to look have the ability to to do some planning ahead of time so the first few constructed events the following week aren't just a combination of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if it works. Now the full set is spoiled about 1-2 weeks before the pre-release which is a sealed event (6 booster packs - so what you pull for those not familiar) so the spoiling doesn't really help much of anyone. The following weekend at the release its sealed as well so no help there either. The first drafts which are usually the following week are the first events that it might help and those are a week after the set would have been spoiled anyway because of the cards appearing at the pre-release. So overall them being spoiled doesn't hurt the game at all, the spoilers also aren't hidden amongst several hundred post forum threads.

PP is good for letting us know what is coming out ahead of time same as battlefront, though I will admit that PP is a bit too far out on their release information a month is good.

Now the secrecy is fine it the timing that is off. WD should be released with the information a month in advance of the models being released not on the day of which is often the case. I don't know that many GW players that have such collections that what the fantasy/lotr release the month before mattered to them one bit. Those that do aren't going to have an issue with anyways as they would have the money set aside for those models anyway.


And after iphone5 will be 6. So? Again no idea what it does. Just like a new codex we know they are coming ( except wood elves) just do not know what will be new. Actually spend more with the secrecy as I buy what I like. Old way was always waiting for three releases down the road.
Whether they told me what was in the next codex or not I still wouldn't be buying anything from it and still waiting till 3-5 releases down the line, why? Because I don't own the armies coming out next, have no intention of buying a single model for them and as such will spend my money elsewhere instead of budgeting for anything GW. GW current policy is to avoid losing a sale of a new release by people who more and likely would have never bought it anyway. So players are still waiting 2, 3, 12 releases down the road they just have no clue when or what that release may entail and in the mean time they may check out that other game system they see playing which could be far more harmful to the long time purchasing of that customer.

Now the other issue is the current block release schedule GW has. No matter what army you play chance are you may have to wait YEARs before anything new comes out for you to be interested in. I think this is part of the reason FW is doing so well in the fact that they are doing lots of tiny updates for armies so that they get sales when an army isn't the current release. The summer of Flyers bit should have been an example of how to do this type of thing but GW failed by not covering the rest of the armies.

Shibboleth
18-08-2012, 14:09
Well, as an example of us being the 'enemy' I can't forget the story of how Jes Goodwin (who I admire, and even got to speak with at Games Day Oz one time) was furious that the Death Jester pics showed up on Warseer (or was it Portent back then?) and was pushing for tighter clamp downs. Ever since then things have only gotten tighter and tighter, and with that attitude it's like they're paranoid against the 'outside world'... ie. us, their customers...
That doesn't sit right with me, but I don't expect it to change.
I just wish it wasn't that way.

Inquisitor Kallus
18-08-2012, 14:48
I dont see the problem. They have good reason to be paranoid in a way, people are greedy and only care bout what they want on the whole. They rant and rave about 'why haven't you made new dwarves for my army' or 'id only buy WD if it has Orks in it'. They then get angry and bitter and feel a sense of entitlement to something that is not theirs. Did you see what happened to the GW forums?

The clampdown is quite important as people get excited about new models, and if they know well in advance then they lose enthusiasm by the time of release, sometimes even moving on to other things like new computer games etc. How does your example see you as an enemy? It does not. I would also point you towards Chapterhouse studio and the debacle that is going on there. Whether you're for or against doesnt matter but GW have had to change how they do things because of what Chapterhouse released. I dont agree with the way GW does a lot of things but im not surorised theyve done what theyve done.

Finnigan2004
18-08-2012, 16:50
I think that it is poor policy and, combined with very high prices in my country, it has contributed to my nearly complete stop in GW purchases-- other than the odd rule book. Essentially, I've found that the clamp down has combined with what someone else said about adult budgeting and has ended any sort of "impulse" purchases. It used to be that I would see the new hotness coming out, know the release date, and be at the store on the day it came out to buy it. Often, it would be something that I never really used because I had so much stuff already. My White Dwarf arrives weeks after the fact, so I usually don't know about new stuff until I walk into the store after it's out. I used to have them put aside a copy of the stuff, but I no longer do because I don't know what is coming out.

Unfortunately for GW, they are now (for the last year really) competing for scarce hobby dollars, and usually when I get to my local shop I already have in mind what I'll buy. Right now, I have two major purchases slotted in, and will not likely deviate from them because I've been salivating over them for months. One is a Woldwrath and the other is an Archangel-- both sold by Privateer Press. Privateer has kept my interest in them by releasing rumors at conventions (which GW does not so much have any more), stuff released on the internet, and even spoiling stats in their No Quarter for the Woldwrath. It's a different marketing philosophy, but it works for me. Not only am I committed to buying them now, but they actually have relevant information in their hobby magazine as a result.

By contrast, the next GW purchase I will make might be the Warriors of Chaos book (if that's next). I might pick up the Empire book, if I find some extra money, but it's an army I only use occasionally so we'll see about that. I have not allotted any money for models with the book though because it's already sort of spoken for (gargantuans are really expensive). Different philosophies for the companies, and GW's might work for some. It does not seem to work for me, rather the lack of anticipation gives me the ability to think about whether I really want to give them my money, instead of advance ordering it sight unseen.

Omniassiah
18-08-2012, 16:51
I dont see the problem. They have good reason to be paranoid in a way, people are greedy and only care bout what they want on the whole. They rant and rave about 'why haven't you made new dwarves for my army' or 'id only buy WD if it has Orks in it'. They then get angry and bitter and feel a sense of entitlement to something that is not theirs. Did you see what happened to the GW forums?

The clampdown is quite important as people get excited about new models, and if they know well in advance then they lose enthusiasm by the time of release, sometimes even moving on to other things like new computer games etc. How does your example see you as an enemy? It does not. I would also point you towards Chapterhouse studio and the debacle that is going on there. Whether you're for or against doesnt matter but GW have had to change how they do things because of what Chapterhouse released. I dont agree with the way GW does a lot of things but im not surorised theyve done what theyve done.

First most of the big screw ups on the chapterhouse case are purely GW fault for being ignorant of trademark law. It would have taken about 2 hours to brainstorm up some unit Ideas and another 4 by legal department to register the trademarks for stuff they may put in the new codex. That said I don't think many people would lose interest in a month which would be a good mark to start showing stuff off. I would wager they lose far more sales from the 1-12 years between releases for an army to other games/activities they they do from releasing a preview of a Model a month or 2 in advance. Because lets be honest if someone can't stay interested in an army for 1 month do you honestly expect them to stick with the army let alone the hobby for the time between releases now?

azhagmorglum
18-08-2012, 17:17
I don't know what is GW's plan or view regarding pictures of upcoming models.
I don't find it particularly insulting that they decided to clamp down very hard any leaks. I think it just seem unusual in nowadays world where any information can be instantly shared, reviewed, loved, hated, criticised, burned down etc... with nothing but a glimpse of it.

I think people are just too impatient today due to that rapidity we are all used to. Remember not so long ago when internet was an infant...However I do think that they should at least try to promote future releases in WD for example, that would a cool addition to the magazine instead of the cr*p we have now. And whatever they want : glimpses, their own rumours, riddles, anything. The complete shutdown is not a good move indeed.

But don't overeact about a supposed conspiracy or a lack of discernement. Maybe they'll be in the mood to share their future releases with us, but you can't blame them when each time a (usually very bad) picture miraculously appears, hundred of hate posts bloom everywhere on the internet and trash either the supposedly new rules and/or the sculpt (and inevitably the sculptor)...only to often find out afterwards that "OMG the model rulez everybody get one in his army"

Scammel
18-08-2012, 18:40
Well, as an example of us being the 'enemy' I can't forget the story of how Jes Goodwin (who I admire, and even got to speak with at Games Day Oz one time) was furious that the Death Jester pics showed up on Warseer (or was it Portent back then?) and was pushing for tighter clamp downs. Ever since then things have only gotten tighter and tighter, and with that attitude it's like they're paranoid against the 'outside world'... ie. us, their customers...

Jes is consdered one of the nicest guys in the entire company. He's angry because he wants to be the one to unveil his stuff and talk about it via WD and the GW website when he feels the time is right, not have someone else run off and do it for him. He doesn't just randomly hate people.

Vazalaar
18-08-2012, 18:56
I don't care why they do it, I just find it insulting, that any news or WIP pics or information for what's coming up has been clamped down on so hard by the draconian dictatorship behind GW's facade.
It shows that the fans here on these forums, and others like it, the ones who love GW's games, models, stories, and everything about the hobby, who pay GW their income, who are GW's Base, their life blood and very existence... are treated as either A) Enemies, to be wary of, despised for any victory they might achieve (ie. leaked pics or rumours), OR B) Suckers to be exploited, ie. manipulated by marketing strategies aimed at insta-buy hype.

I don't like being viewed that way, especially by some monstrous corporation.

Just be human, be open, and let everyone in on the deal.

I've been out of the hobby for the last 3 years or so, because the Chaos Marine Codex was so lacklustre, and I don't care for any other races - but with Chaos coming back, the few leaks that have come out brought me back to see what's up (though it looks more like they're merely finishing off the 'half-job' they started with the last one. I still don't think my Lord will get a Retinue - but Cultists are coool.)
Yet at the store there's nothing, and noone's talking.

I didn't even feel like talking to the staff at the store (what's left of the one's I used to know since they've just sacked all the casuals), because I know they're bound by the same GW policies - and so I view them with the same suspicion they view me (What am I doing back? Am I gonna try and pocket something?) If you bring up anything 'coming soon', beyond what the current WD reveals they clam up.

I hate secrets and I hate being manipulated - I'm not an enemy - I'm a customer.

Oh my, someone needs a hug.;)

GW is a company, not some volunteer group. They want to make money, lots of money as all companies do. I think some people have a twisted view of what GW is. It's not your friend or enemy. It provides you a luxery product, which you decide to buy or not. Simple as that.

Commissar Merces
18-08-2012, 19:02
Personally, I think its false advertisement to say vengance is coming August 25th as that will only be pre-orders with the actual set not getting released till the 1st of september at the earliest. This is much like their big "release party" for 6th edition. Thousands of gamers went expecting to get their paws on a real rulebook didn't happen. All you got was a photo catalogue aka white dwarf that told you what to look forward to preordering rather than tell you anything about it.

I am beyond thankful for the leaks of the pictures as now I know I am free to spend money elsewhere as I hate the Dark Angels figures (they look cartoonish and silly) AND I won't have to buy another blundering edition of white dwarf to look at 60 pages of pictures of the same thing over and over again and a forced battle report with the starter set (in which the DA will be extremely triumphant due to an unbalanced box.

Fr0
18-08-2012, 19:05
Some leaks are good. They create hype, and people get excited for release. Too many/too much info is bad. It's getting to the point where I usually have the book about 3 weeks or so before it's released.. I can understand why they are a bit anal. The tone they set in that message was a bit off-putting, I admit but it was directed to their store(s), not us.


I hate secrets and I hate being manipulated - I'm not an enemy - I'm a customer.
You are a customer of the products they place on the shelf, not sure how that entitles you to information privileged to employees. Must be one of those instant gratification types, huh? :P

xxRavenxx
18-08-2012, 19:06
Never seen the issue with MTG. Most of the newer players aren't hurt by missing the spoilers because they wouldn't know what to do with the information if they have it.

The spoiling, sometimes up to a month in advance for 90% of a set, causes a decided reduction in "gambling" purchases. The thrill of cracking open a pack and seeing a card you've not seen before satisfies some fairly powerful urges. Being able to read the entire setlist before your local retailer ever receives a pack isn't a good thing for them.


Jes is consdered one of the nicest guys in the entire company. He's angry because he wants to be the one to unveil his stuff and talk about it via WD and the GW website when he feels the time is right, not have someone else run off and do it for him. He doesn't just randomly hate people.

I think you'll find he's a monster who eats babies. How else could he survive in the sulphur pit in which GW resides? :p

Inquisitor Kallus
18-08-2012, 19:08
First most of the big screw ups on the chapterhouse case are purely GW fault for being ignorant of trademark law. It would have taken about 2 hours to brainstorm up some unit Ideas and another 4 by legal department to register the trademarks for stuff they may put in the new codex. That said I don't think many people would lose interest in a month which would be a good mark to start showing stuff off. I would wager they lose far more sales from the 1-12 years between releases for an army to other games/activities they they do from releasing a preview of a Model a month or 2 in advance. Because lets be honest if someone can't stay interested in an army for 1 month do you honestly expect them to stick with the army let alone the hobby for the time between releases now?

Of course, i know its GWs fault for not protecting themselves adequately. And yes, interest can wane quite quickly. We used to have a whisper period (GW, I no longer work there) that had at one time 3-4 weeks till launch where people could play using new models, rules etc. this was when the Tau Empire came out. By the time it was released most people had lost interest so youre wrong on that point. And yes, some people do, some people dont. Its cool to see previews and so on every so often, though so many people here feel like they are owed something, you are not. If they want to do business that way let them, there is always a reason behind it.

Inquisitor Kallus
18-08-2012, 19:11
The spoiling, sometimes up to a month in advance for 90% of a set, causes a decided reduction in "gambling" purchases. The thrill of cracking open a pack and seeing a card you've not seen before satisfies some fairly powerful urges. Being able to read the entire setlist before your local retailer ever receives a pack isn't a good thing for them.



I think you'll find he's a monster who eats babies. How else could he survive in the sulphur pit in which GW resides? :p


:eek:

:p

Ohmehrgawd!!

Private_SeeD
18-08-2012, 19:31
I like rumours like the next guy, they usually help me set money aside or beg my other half to let me spend the money that should be put towards something else aka our savings account... now this is a bugbear of mine but its the criticism and negativity that can somewhat taint rumour pages, I know everyone has there opinions but can't people jst be glad/happy for what's what? or am I alone in this?

Scammel
18-08-2012, 20:04
I think you'll find he's a monster who eats babies.

As I said, one of the nicer ones in the company. :p

Inquisitor Kallus
18-08-2012, 20:11
I like rumours like the next guy, they usually help me set money aside or beg my other half to let me spend the money that should be put towards something else aka our savings account... now this is a bugbear of mine but its the criticism and negativity that can somewhat taint rumour pages, I know everyone has there opinions but can't people jst be glad/happy for what's what? or am I alone in this?

Most people just want more...

Woodsman
18-08-2012, 20:53
Jes is consdered one of the nicest guys in the entire company. He's angry because he wants to be the one to unveil his stuff and talk about it via WD and the GW website when he feels the time is right, not have someone else run off and do it for him. He doesn't just randomly hate people.

Yeah. This!! I've also spoken to Jes multiple gamesdays and he's one of the best! But seeing some of the grief people give over spoilers you can understand his points. When storm of magic pictures came out people were saying all sorts of things about certain of the sculpters based on single pictures in unflattering poses with dodgy paintjobs. I admit I thought some of them were terrible! Saw the models in the flesh and now have a couple! A few dodgy photos slightly misremembered rules rumours can send certain members crazy and their comments quickly become personal attacks! Its not a huge industry and this sort of thing quickly gets back. Of course some folks deal with this better than others but either way should they have to?

Now you may not like GW's methods (Not a fan myself, especially block release system, damn I want new Brets) but I still love the game and the fluff and still play. It doesn't mean I'm their personal friend or somesuch, nor are they my enemy.

Mastodon
18-08-2012, 21:34
And again the sense of entitlement rears its head and people rise up to have a whinge that they cant get what they want, when they want it. The lack of rumours has resulted in an upsurge in impulse purchases in my store, with a lot of people having no idea whats coming out, despite what this forum thinks.

Its also massively reduced the random walk in who loudly asks if I have a copy of 'x' to look at, 'oh didnt you know, thats out next month *smug grin*'. And I'm not even a GW store, they must get sick to death of those people.

If you cant afford a new release when it comes out, why not save up for it and get it later. If you don't want it after its been out for a month because its not 'new', guess what, you never wanted it in the first place and you've saved yourself some money. And in my experience, anyone that uses the phrase 'I have to plan my purchases so I need to know whats coming out' is more likely to never buy it anyway, because something new is on the horizon thats caught their attention, which again they'll never buy because something else is rumoured.

All I can say is this new system has worked wonders for me, and will get even better now they're finally penalizing independent stores from breaking the agreement we all sign when we agree to stock GW products.

azhagmorglum
18-08-2012, 23:28
now this is a bugbear of mine but its the criticism and negativity that can somewhat taint rumour pages, I know everyone has there opinions but can't people jst be glad/happy for what's what? or am I alone in this?

Exactly. But it's always easier to criticize than to give praise and approval. I guess it's the words used by people that pose problem. When you don't like a model, do you really have to say "I hate" that model? No, you just don't like it, it happens, you can't tell me you hate it, like it is destroying your life or such. Maybe I read too much in what people write, but I think also that everybody here can express their opinion in a more constructive manner than "GAWHH THATMODELSUCKSTOHELLTHESCULPTORWTFIT'STHEENDOFTHEW ORLD!!!!!!!"...come on ;-)

Cherrystone
19-08-2012, 01:28
I think a large part of me spending hundreds on Anima Tactics, Warlands, Empire of the Dead, Cutlass, Uncharted Seas, Carnevale etc and loads of board games is the lack of interest and speculaton and a sense of a lack inclusiveness and development in whats happening in wfb (i only play wfb of GW, plus some 'specialist' games). Just look at what Games companies are doing at Gencon right now, including their players (customers) into whats happening in the year ahead.

With this and their narrow-minded support of only focasing on stale (rules) games and giving the designers no space for any creativity* has surly impacted on what money is spent from anyone that plays wargames (and a little board game) in the last 10 years.

*ignore Dreadful Fleet in this statement,,,

Commissar Merces
19-08-2012, 03:05
It's not that I hate the models, I may have gone a little too far in protesting them, they just really not sitting right with me.

I do, however, think GW does a have a problem with accepting that the internet will always be faster than their printed word and that people getting excited about their products, even if it is by a leak. I have bought less and less GW stuff because I can't get as excited as I used to.

Omniassiah
19-08-2012, 04:15
The spoiling, sometimes up to a month in advance for 90% of a set, causes a decided reduction in "gambling" purchases. The thrill of cracking open a pack and seeing a card you've not seen before satisfies some fairly powerful urges. Being able to read the entire setlist before your local retailer ever receives a pack isn't a good thing for them.

Never seen that at my local store, The gambling has never been about getting a card never seen but pulling that great Rare/Mythic Rare, which is a constant regardless of the fact the set is spoiled. Then again it can be the differing of the location, We have a very competitive scene for MTG and the main players know the cards from spoilers. They still buy the same amount of packs, still do all the different Draft/Sealed events for the rare pulls.


Of course, i know its GWs fault for not protecting themselves adequately. And yes, interest can wane quite quickly. We used to have a whisper period (GW, I no longer work there) that had at one time 3-4 weeks till launch where people could play using new models, rules etc. this was when the Tau Empire came out. By the time it was released most people had lost interest so youre wrong on that point. And yes, some people do, some people dont. Its cool to see previews and so on every so often, though so many people here feel like they are owed something, you are not. If they want to do business that way let them, there is always a reason behind it.

Wait, not sure I get this. Are you saying you had the chance to play with the models and use the rules a full month before release. If that is what you meant then that is way too much information that early. Full rules should at best be available on day of pre-orders. But there is really no reason for a small article or podcast from the developers mentioning what they are working on maybe 2-3 months out. Confirming release dates about 1 month out with some pictures up around that time.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-08-2012, 04:47
Never seen that at my local store, The gambling has never been about getting a card never seen but pulling that great Rare/Mythic Rare, which is a constant regardless of the fact the set is spoiled. Then again it can be the differing of the location, We have a very competitive scene for MTG and the main players know the cards from spoilers. They still buy the same amount of packs, still do all the different Draft/Sealed events for the rare pulls.



Wait, not sure I get this. Are you saying you had the chance to play with the models and use the rules a full month before release. If that is what you meant then that is way too much information that early. Full rules should at best be available on day of pre-orders. But there is really no reason for a small article or podcast from the developers mentioning what they are working on maybe 2-3 months out. Confirming release dates about 1 month out with some pictures up around that time.

Yes, I am saying that as we did it with the Tau empire release in my store. They don't need to do a podcast or anything of the sort. It may however be useful for them to. I know very well how release schedules, promotions ans the like are handled by the company and I believe a number of incidents (Chapterhouse, the rogue security staff member, New Line and a number of other things have led to them choosing to restrict rumours. I dont see it as a roblem if thats what they want to do, I started back in the early 90s when there was no internet and there was no over whelming need to get as much information as possible. I find it quite funny that people have so little patience. On second thoughts, its not funny it just goes to show that a lot of people in this day and age are never satisfied. Its quite a childish notion, especially for something as frivolous as toy soldiers...

semper_fi
19-08-2012, 08:44
isnt it better to ask yourself the following question.....

Why does GW use the clampdown strategy? is it because of the competition, a marketing strategy, increase of impulse buys you name it.
personally i dont like this, i always loved the leaked pics and rules but since clampdown there is not much to go on .....

shades of blue and grey
19-08-2012, 08:46
I think it comes down to loyalty were not talking about the latest apple i phone, we can swap them for something else whenever we want, we cant really do that with this and if gw makes something we dont like were stuck with it, were loyal thats why we feel hurt if they muck are model up, look at liegion of damed great models iv got them but rules for them suck do to pts, cant use them in proper games yet id love to, now you get that feeling "ow but i want to (feet stomp)" you've payed money for them. But that is the hobby we are in.

shelfunit.
19-08-2012, 09:15
I think it comes down to loyalty were not talking about the latest apple i phone, we can swap them for something else whenever we want, we cant really do that with this and if gw makes something we dont like were stuck with it, were loyal thats why we feel hurt if they muck are model up, look at liegion of damed great models iv got them but rules for them suck do to pts, cant use them in proper games yet id love to, now you get that feeling "ow but i want to (feet stomp)" you've payed money for them. But that is the hobby we are in.

Actually, in that respect you can swap GW for something else whenever you want, and unless you are completely tied to GW to the extent that you feel you "have" buy the newest whatever (that's addiction by the way) you are most certainly not "stuck with it".
It does sound odd that a lot of the posts that are rebuking people do so for "loyalty", basing a business on loyalty and the assumption that people will always buy regardless of what it is that is released can be a particularly shakey foundation.

RevEv
19-08-2012, 13:17
Apple have a culture of secrecy but we know iPhone 5 is coming. That's not a secret, just exactly what it does is. There time frame of telling you what's coming and the eventual release is a lot longer than one week.

A good analogy! We know Apple are releasing an iPhone 5 soon, we don't as yet know when or what features it will have. Apple's secrecy does not remove the interest in the product or the hysteria when it is released.

Similarly we all know GW are releasing a new 40K starter set, we know when, it is only now we know what is in the box. Our interest is piqued by the rumours, whether we are as hysterical about the actual release as Apple freaks is another matter.

I, for one, like that GW are able to reveal new stuff only a week or so before it is released. Makes no difference to my spending pattern however, except for a big release.

Killgore
19-08-2012, 15:15
Personally, I think its false advertisement to say vengance is coming August 25th as that will only be pre-orders with the actual set not getting released till the 1st of september at the earliest. This is much like their big "release party" for 6th edition. Thousands of gamers went expecting to get their paws on a real rulebook didn't happen. All you got was a photo catalogue aka white dwarf that told you what to look forward to preordering rather than tell you anything about it.

I am beyond thankful for the leaks of the pictures as now I know I am free to spend money elsewhere as I hate the Dark Angels figures (they look cartoonish and silly) AND I won't have to buy another blundering edition of white dwarf to look at 60 pages of pictures of the same thing over and over again and a forced battle report with the starter set (in which the DA will be extremely triumphant due to an unbalanced box.

You’re basing your opinions on the new Dark Angels models on a few dodgy scan pictures.

Wouldn't it be great if you changed your opinion when you inevitably get to see the 360 pictures of the new models on GW's site.

If you viewed the new models for the first time as GW marketing intended you might have a more positive view of them.

I can see why designers get annoyed with leaks.

Commissar Merces
19-08-2012, 15:26
You’re basing your opinions on the new Dark Angels models on a few dodgy scan pictures.

Wouldn't it be great if you changed your opinion when you inevitably get to see the 360 pictures of the new models on GW's site.

If you viewed the new models for the first time as GW marketing intended you might have a more positive view of them.

I can see why designers get annoyed with leaks.

The last set of pictures were far from dodgy. Combine that with the fact I have never really liked the feather motif on the terminators and the librarian with a bib not to mention ape man sergeant, it just doesn't feel like my style of dark angels. Don't even get my started on the chaplain and the smoke effect that looks more like ectoplasm than smoke regardless of how you paint it. I've had my army since 2001 and have centered them around robes and minimalist decoration as I view them as warrior monks. The models depicted in that box are far to garish and would class terribly with my models to be honest (except for the tac squad but I already have half a dozen of those).

The chaos models, however, have almost inspired me to start a chaos renegade list with allied chaos marines.

Omniassiah
19-08-2012, 17:45
You’re basing your opinions on the new Dark Angels models on a few dodgy scan pictures.
Wouldn't it be great if you changed your opinion when you inevitably get to see the 360 pictures of the new models on GW's site.
If you viewed the new models for the first time as GW marketing intended you might have a more positive view of them.
I can see why designers get annoyed with leaks.

So do some actual marketing by doing the leaks themselves the way they want it. I remember a discussion I had with some of the Devs when I was at Warhammer world about 4-5 years ago. This topic came up and the reason for clamping down on releases is so that you are more likely to spend money on the current release then the one coming up. Well I sarcastically explained that doing so increased my purchasing of whatever fantasy army was currently released by about 5000 times, it was from 0 dollars to 0 dollars. Not doing any type of marketing before means that those leaks are the ONLY thing you have to go by until last minute. Now for the cost of GW stuff anymore most people tend to plan for the spending. If its over $30 I make sure that I budget for it so that I still have money to do other things that I want to do as well. The surprise of stuff coming out isn't that big of a deal. Now look at Battlefront, I know the release dates for for the entire month a week or 2 before the month start. As the stuff starts to come closer to available the start doing spotlights to show the products off. I don't need to go scrounging around the web to find out what is the next codex or army to see if I need to budget some money aside, I know ahead of time and can plan for it.

Funny story involving my FLGS, he got his weekly call from his rep and asked if he had any news on the Necrons coming out, the stuff important to a retailer Cost/Prices/When he'll need to have pre-orders ready for/etc. he was told that there was no information available that the necrons would be next alright kind of :wtf: but here is the kicker, the next day he got a call from the same rep asking how many of the new Necron boxes he wanted to pre-order. Now of course my store owner not so politely told him off and later did the same to his boss at Gamma. For the 40k release he had to go tell people to order directly from GW because they didn't do any planning with making the special versions/sets available to retailers. Needless to say after all this he has been drawling down stock of GW product and has been pushing other companies and I can't blame him.

Now I can't think of a single major manufacturer or producer that gives a one week notice that something even exists. Usually its a 1-3 month ad campaign leading up to the release.

f2k
19-08-2012, 19:11
You’re basing your opinions on the new Dark Angels models on a few dodgy scan pictures.

Wouldn't it be great if you changed your opinion when you inevitably get to see the 360 pictures of the new models on GW's site.

If you viewed the new models for the first time as GW marketing intended you might have a more positive view of them.

I can see why designers get annoyed with leaks.

And why a few dodgy scans? Because Games Workshop doesn’t bother doing any kind of pre-release work themselves.

It’s interesting how other miniature companies have absolutely no problem showing previews and setting release dates several months in advance.

Compare this with the gaming industry. How long ago is it that we saw the first previews of Diablo 3? For how long have we known that Borderlands 2 is coming? How long before release did Max Payne go on pre-order? Etc., etc., etc...

If clamping down this tightly on rumours and hype works so well, then how come no one else is doing it?

Kijamon
19-08-2012, 19:54
Using Diablo 3 as your evidence blows your argument out of the water. It was later than late, they didn't let on till the last possible second that single player required you to be connected to the internet and it was in fact nowhere near as good as people hyped it to be and was just an auction house with added game.

If you want GW to do a Blizzard then they'll show you awesome holy sketches of joy, screenshots of beautiful amazing models from the front and then they'll release them without having any actual rear to the models and the rules will suck. Then they'll tell you you need to pop in to your local GW store every week to upgrade them with various weapons.

shelfunit.
19-08-2012, 20:09
If you want GW to do a Blizzard then they'll show you awesome holy sketches of joy, screenshots of beautiful amazing models from the front and then they'll release them without having any actual rear to the models and the rules will suck. Then they'll tell you you need to pop in to your local GW store every week to upgrade them with various weapons.

Well, to the first point there, they do have FC, which often has similar problems, and the rules are nothing special to shout about either...

Killgore
19-08-2012, 20:56
And why a few dodgy scans? Because Games Workshop doesn’t bother doing any kind of pre-release work themselves.

It’s interesting how other miniature companies have absolutely no problem showing previews and setting release dates several months in advance.

Compare this with the gaming industry. How long ago is it that we saw the first previews of Diablo 3? For how long have we known that Borderlands 2 is coming? How long before release did Max Payne go on pre-order? Etc., etc., etc...

If clamping down this tightly on rumours and hype works so well, then how come no one else is doing it?


How many of these game companys are updating existing models? Heres the problem, GW are a business that release models that can last you a lifetime if kept in good condition. However to fund new releases they need to keep selling the old stuff. Now if everyone saw what was comming a few months in advance, lets say for example a new Chaos Space Marine squad, the sales of the old kit would tank as everyone would be saving up for the newer all singing, all dancing kit. The same principle applies to much of the GW range. GW needs the sales of the older kit to fund the new stuff!

jack da greenskin
19-08-2012, 21:00
How many of these game companys are updating existing models? Heres the problem, GW are a business that release models that can last you a lifetime if kept in good condition. However to fund new releases they need to keep selling the old stuff. Now if everyone saw what was comming a few months in advance, lets say for example a new Chaos Space Marine squad, the sales of the old kit would tank as everyone would be saving up for the newer all singing, all dancing kit. The same principle applies to much of the GW range. GW needs the sales of the older kit to fund the new stuff!

Not half as much as you'd think. GW don't update kits all that often, especially plastic>plastic, much more common is metal>plastic, and even then, I think they'd rather you got the plastic because the profit margin is so much higher.

In short, you're kinda right, but that's nowhere near the full reason, and to assume it is, is wrong.

The Phazer
19-08-2012, 21:02
And after iphone5 will be 6. So? Again no idea what it does. Just like a new codex we know they are coming ( except wood elves) just do not know what will be new. Actually spend more with the secrecy as I buy what I like. Old way was always waiting for three releases down the road.

Err... yeah we do. We know everything about the iPhone 5. The dimensions (it's longer and has a taller screen), the camera unit, the shape of the motherboard, the capacity of the battery etc etc.

Apple spends more on secrecy than GW's entire revenue, and they still fail miserably. Why would GW choose to ignore empirical reality?

Secrecy doesn't work for companies unless you are sufficiently mainstream that a sudden announcement gets you in the mainstream press, like Apple. If you're a small or niche company like GW are it's just crapping all over your long term marketing, and you sell vastly less product as a result.

A combination of GW's secrecy and the damage they've done to modelling with the loss of the bits service has seen my spending drop from several thousand a year to less than a hundred.

ForgottenLore
19-08-2012, 22:48
How many of these game companys are updating existing models? Heres the problem, GW are a business that release models that can last you a lifetime if kept in good condition. However to fund new releases they need to keep selling the old stuff. Now if everyone saw what was comming a few months in advance, lets say for example a new Chaos Space Marine squad, the sales of the old kit would tank as everyone would be saving up for the newer all singing, all dancing kit. The same principle applies to much of the GW range. GW needs the sales of the older kit to fund the new stuff!

You mean like when Spartan Games redesigned the entire Uncharted Seas range of miniatures and started regularly showing us renders of the new CAD files months in advance to build up hype?

Or when Privateer was getting ready to start switching to plas-resin and released teaser pics of the new war jack sculpts?

Elric
19-08-2012, 22:58
I agree that it's nice to see new miniatures prior to their release, however for the majority of customers, for whom White Dwarf is the first viewing of new releases, the current strategy is working quite well.
I think it's rather childish to get angry about not being able to see pictures of toy soldiers six months before they're released. I think some people need some perspective.

paddyalexander
19-08-2012, 23:00
Lets look at how other war games miniture companies handle their prerelease marketing for their products. Privateer Press, Mantic & Spartan Games all release concept art, work in progress pictures and rules information over a period of months to build up the excitement for the product. Lets look at how Privateer Press handled the release of their Collossals book. They produced a video containing some information about the Collossal models, showing the finished models for two of them & artwork for the rest while aslo talking a little about how they work in the game. Later they released more information, both pictures & artwork for the up coming models & previews of their rules in a steady stream, trough their website and in their magazine up untill the book got released.

Privateer Press paced the information so it got steadily released trough offical sources over time and it not only generated hype and maintained the excitement for the product, it allowed players to budget well in advance for what are expensive models.

gwPLCs' current stratagy of secrecy is idiotic, as the only prerelease marketing is based on whatever rumors their comunity can scrounge up. They've chosen to try to eleminate rumors instead of doing the smart thing and take control of it, even in a limited way. Right now there is no promotion being generated for their up comming products (I don't count white dwarfs' lifeless "BUY THIS NOW" dibble a week before a product is released as advertising) or when they try they fail misserbly at it (yet again putting the pre-order date in the "teaser" video with no other info).


Or when Privateer was getting ready to start switching to plas-resin and released teaser pics of the new war jack sculpts?

Actual when they switched to plastic (it is not a styrine based polymer but it is not resin) the first release was the Menoth Bastions. Privateer had intended to first preview the models and gauge what the community tought of the sculpts and level of detail before revealing them to be plastic. There was a portion of their forums at the time that was very vocal about a switch to platic meaning a drastic loss of detail. Unfortunitly a Japanese online store put them up for preorder before the models had officaly been announced, listing them as plastic infantry. The models were very well recieved anyway.

PS. resin type of plastic (actualy a catch all phrase for hundreds of types of plastic), saying that they've switched to a plastic-resin (or varient of that phrase) is the same as saying they've switched to a plastic-plastic. I used to work in plastic casting (used to cast cases for pacemakers out of resin) & it is just something that bugs me.

Omniassiah
19-08-2012, 23:27
How many of these game companys are updating existing models? Heres the problem, GW are a business that release models that can last you a lifetime if kept in good condition. However to fund new releases they need to keep selling the old stuff. Now if everyone saw what was comming a few months in advance, lets say for example a new Chaos Space Marine squad, the sales of the old kit would tank as everyone would be saving up for the newer all singing, all dancing kit. The same principle applies to much of the GW range. GW needs the sales of the older kit to fund the new stuff!

First in most cases those kits being replaced are probably drawling down on sales to begin with because even the most die hard fans aren't going to need that many of any one kit. And even if they aren't they should go to a minimalist production schedule if not a zero production schedule up in order to use up existing stocks before the new releases. As has been pointed out before other companies do this already and it works just fine. I mean Car companies do this on a yearly schedule and yet cars are still bought before the new model year comes out. Again because of the combination of stock draw down and deals to move old product.


I agree that it's nice to see new miniatures prior to their release, however for the majority of customers, for whom White Dwarf is the first viewing of new releases, the current strategy is working quite well.
I think it's rather childish to get angry about not being able to see pictures of toy soldiers six months before they're released. I think some people need some perspective.

Well here you really didn't want to use the hyperbole of 6 months, none of us want that. 2 month lead time web article of "hey we just got finished working on this" followed by developer articles on what they were think about in the changes. maybe a hit of a new special rule or two(never the entire statline w/rules), some pictures every week would work well. You do a timed controlled releases of information so that you are constantly giving people new things to talk about in your upcoming releases. Amazingly this is called a marketing campaign something that a marketing department would do in addition to some other really valuable data collections, would be nice if GW had one of those (have been told that they don't and haven't seen anything to prove otherwise).

f2k
20-08-2012, 03:47
Using Diablo 3 as your evidence blows your argument out of the water. It was later than late, they didn't let on till the last possible second that single player required you to be connected to the internet and it was in fact nowhere near as good as people hyped it to be and was just an auction house with added game.

If you want GW to do a Blizzard then they'll show you awesome holy sketches of joy, screenshots of beautiful amazing models from the front and then they'll release them without having any actual rear to the models and the rules will suck. Then they'll tell you you need to pop in to your local GW store every week to upgrade them with various weapons.

What does the quality of the product have to do with anything?

Sure, Diablo 3 was a huge disappointment. But then again, it wasn’t nearly as bad as Dreadfleet. A product does not become magically better just because it’s a huge big secret until release.

Also, let’s not forget that Diablo 3 still sold very well. So the long development time and delays didn’t seem to have any impact at all.


How many of these game companys are updating existing models? Heres the problem, GW are a business that release models that can last you a lifetime if kept in good condition. However to fund new releases they need to keep selling the old stuff. Now if everyone saw what was comming a few months in advance, lets say for example a new Chaos Space Marine squad, the sales of the old kit would tank as everyone would be saving up for the newer all singing, all dancing kit. The same principle applies to much of the GW range. GW needs the sales of the older kit to fund the new stuff!

How often does Games Workshop completely update a model? Recutting a sprue to do a stealth price-increase? Sure. Switching to Finecast? Sure. But completely redesign it...?

Privateer Press doesn’t seem to have a problem showcasing the redone boxes well in advance. Yes, there was a bit of grumbling from metal-fans in the beginning but overall it’s been well received. So why is it such a big problem for Games Workshop?

Also, let’s not forget that a well selling kit is unlikely to be redesigned. Why should it? So I don’t think that it would be too unreasonable to assume that in most cases a redesigned model wouldn’t have been selling too well in the first place so why nope hype it a bit? Why not let the customers know that something new and interesting is on the way?

Inquisitor Engel
20-08-2012, 04:21
Comparing a video game to GW's model is... a bit off, but only slightly.

The video game gets sold once. Publishers get all the money they're going to get from that customer (generally*) once. Very, very few GW customers go out and buy an entire army in one fell swoop. GW bets on you spending $30 here, $45 there and a big $100 purchase occasionally. They NEED repeat business. As others have pointed out, showing you the $30 thing is about to be replace directly loses them $30 as you wait for the new $30 thing which you might have bought anyway as it's so cool.

Video game publishers NEED you to be excited because they NEED you to spend $60 ASAP. Price drops** after that point are merely to entice people who might otherwise not have bought and to try and get them excited about sequels or DLC***. Showing you things early is the exact opposite intention as GW.

GW showing you new kits 6 months in advance would be the same as a publisher showing you the GOTY Edition with all the DLC and goodies included before the main game (without all those things included) is even released.




* Most customers do not purchase DLC for most titles. Take Battlefield and Call of Duty out of it and DLC has a less than 20% purchase rate, even accounting for used sales. Multiple DLC purchases drop it even lower, into the sub 10% range.

** Price drops and use-game sales are actually a publishers' best friend in this respect. Almost three quarters of money received by gamers for trading stuff in goes towards the purchase of a brand-new title and they're well aware that much of their sequel-beats-original sales are due to used game/sale price purchasers.

*** Online-passes aren't there to cut out used-game resellers, it's to recoup server costs typically and sometimes yes, DLC does have development cost that needs to be accounted for.

Elric
20-08-2012, 07:38
Well here you really didn't want to use the hyperbole of 6 months, none of us want that. 2 month lead time web article of "hey we just got finished working on this" followed by developer articles on what they were think about in the changes. maybe a hit of a new special rule or two(never the entire statline w/rules), some pictures every week would work well. You do a timed controlled releases of information so that you are constantly giving people new things to talk about in your upcoming releases. Amazingly this is called a marketing campaign something that a marketing department would do in addition to some other really valuable data collections, would be nice if GW had one of those (have been told that they don't and haven't seen anything to prove otherwise).

There used to be reveal times of six months out frequently. By two months full rules would be available online. Anyway the six months comment was a little arbitrary.
I suppose that GW does give most of its products 2 months of marketing, via White Dwarf on the month of release and then the following month.
Remember that you don't need to buy things on release date, you can wait for a while.

paddyalexander
20-08-2012, 07:52
I suppose I'm the rarety in that rumours for new releases used to get me into a buying frenzy in order to be prepared for when the new release hit. When I saw the rumours for the 4th ed Eldar (who I hadn't used since 2nd ed) I bought 4 Wave Serpents, 3 Vipers, a whole bunch of jetbikes and filled out several units of different aspect warriors to 10. All because I was excided for the new rules and the new models for the Dire Avengers. Same happened with the 4th ed Orks and the 3.5 ed Chaos Space Marines. That was money I would have spent on Battletech or AT-43 otherwise.

f2k
20-08-2012, 08:37
Comparing a video game to GW's model is... a bit off, but only slightly.

The video game gets sold once. Publishers get all the money they're going to get from that customer (generally*) once. Very, very few GW customers go out and buy an entire army in one fell swoop. GW bets on you spending $30 here, $45 there and a big $100 purchase occasionally. They NEED repeat business. As others have pointed out, showing you the $30 thing is about to be replace directly loses them $30 as you wait for the new $30 thing which you might have bought anyway as it's so cool.

Video game publishers NEED you to be excited because they NEED you to spend $60 ASAP. Price drops** after that point are merely to entice people who might otherwise not have bought and to try and get them excited about sequels or DLC***. Showing you things early is the exact opposite intention as GW.

GW showing you new kits 6 months in advance would be the same as a publisher showing you the GOTY Edition with all the DLC and goodies included before the main game (without all those things included) is even released.




* Most customers do not purchase DLC for most titles. Take Battlefield and Call of Duty out of it and DLC has a less than 20% purchase rate, even accounting for used sales. Multiple DLC purchases drop it even lower, into the sub 10% range.

** Price drops and use-game sales are actually a publishers' best friend in this respect. Almost three quarters of money received by gamers for trading stuff in goes towards the purchase of a brand-new title and they're well aware that much of their sequel-beats-original sales are due to used game/sale price purchasers.

*** Online-passes aren't there to cut out used-game resellers, it's to recoup server costs typically and sometimes yes, DLC does have development cost that needs to be accounted for.

Actually, I would have thought it was a fairly good analogy for Games Workshop's churn'n'burn strategy. Get the young 'uns (or rather, their parents) to splash-buy a starter kit and the hobby essentials (the game) and if they returned later for some extra units (the DLC) that was good but not really expected.

As such, I can see Games Workshop having the same need to get their customers hyped up as Blizzard or EA. They need the kids to rant and rave, shout and scream, until they get their shiny new toy. Refusing to do this makes it seem as though Games Workshop wants you to impuls-buy their new stuff. But sadly, the price is now way beyond impuls-buys for most of us.

You do have a point though, in that games generally goes down in price whereas Games Workshops models stay at the same ludicrously overpriced level all the time. However, the stronger brands (and Games Workshop obviously believes themselves to be very strong indeed) keep their value for a lot longer than indy-titles.

Elric
20-08-2012, 09:20
Actually, I would have thought it was a fairly good analogy for Games Workshop's churn'n'burn strategy. Get the young 'uns (or rather, their parents) to splash-buy a starter kit and the hobby essentials (the game) and if they returned later for some extra units (the DLC) that was good but not really expected.

As such, I can see Games Workshop having the same need to get their customers hyped up as Blizzard or EA. They need the kids to rant and rave, shout and scream, until they get their shiny new toy. Refusing to do this makes it seem as though Games Workshop wants you to impuls-buy their new stuff. But sadly, the price is now way beyond impuls-buys for most of us.

You do have a point though, in that games generally goes down in price whereas Games Workshops models stay at the same ludicrously overpriced level all the time. However, the stronger brands (and Games Workshop obviously believes themselves to be very strong indeed) keep their value for a lot longer than indy-titles.


I think the comparison is rather less compelling than you suggest. Computer games are competing against other manufacturers products, GW are only really competing against them selves.
I think that your last point, in agreement with Engel is probably spot on, with the additional consideration that if games don't make a big impact initially then they are quickly forgotten for the next big release.

f2k
20-08-2012, 09:36
I think the comparison is rather less compelling than you suggest. Computer games are competing against other manufacturers products, GW are only really competing against them selves.
I think that your last point, in agreement with Engel is probably spot on, with the additional consideration that if games don't make a big impact initially then they are quickly forgotten for the next big release.

Games Workshop is only competing against themselves?

Ehhh...?

Mantic, Privateer Press, Battlefront, Infinity, Heavy Gear... Probably forgot a lot but those were just at the top of my mind. Let's face it, there're lots of alternatives to Games Workshop out there.

Also, in a way they are directly competing against computer games (as well as booze, girls, lots of stuff) as they're trying to get kids to spend their time and money on products. But whereas 500 DKr. will get me a brand new computer game that I can play as soon as I install it, the same kind of money will just about get me two units from Games Workshop and I still have to assemble them, paint them, learn the rules, find someone to play against, etc. And whereas I can play the same game again and again for as long as I want (indeed, games like Diablo is build upon the basic premise of replayability), playing a Games Workshop game is entirely dependant upon having others who play the same game.

This is, of course, written in very general terms. There're questions of what age group games are developed for, are the multi- or single-player, etc. But in the main, I believe the comparison is somewhat valid.

In any case, even if it isn't, there's still the question of how companies like Battlefront and Privateer Press gets away with releasing previews as early as they do. If it's really as bad for business as Games Workshop claims, then why aren't others doing the same?

jack da greenskin
20-08-2012, 11:10
Games Workshop is only competing against themselves?

Ehhh...?

Mantic, Privateer Press, Battlefront, Infinity, Heavy Gear... Probably forgot a lot but those were just at the top of my mind. Let's face it, there're lots of alternatives to Games Workshop out there.

Also, in a way they are directly competing against computer games (as well as booze, girls, lots of stuff) as they're trying to get kids to spend their time and money on products. But whereas 500 DKr. will get me a brand new computer game that I can play as soon as I install it, the same kind of money will just about get me two units from Games Workshop and I still have to assemble them, paint them, learn the rules, find someone to play against, etc. And whereas I can play the same game again and again for as long as I want (indeed, games like Diablo is build upon the basic premise of replayability), playing a Games Workshop game is entirely dependant upon having others who play the same game.

This is, of course, written in very general terms. There're questions of what age group games are developed for, are the multi- or single-player, etc. But in the main, I believe the comparison is somewhat valid.

In any case, even if it isn't, there's still the question of how companies like Battlefront and Privateer Press gets away with releasing previews as early as they do. If it's really as bad for business as Games Workshop claims, then why aren't others doing the same?

Most GW customers really dont stray from the one company too much. To me, they're competing against mantic and wyrd and PP, but to 5 other people like me in my local GW, they're not. There is only GW.

Agrimax
20-08-2012, 11:15
In any case, even if it isn't, there's still the question of how companies like Battlefront and Privateer Press gets away with releasing previews as early as they do. If it's really as bad for business as Games Workshop claims, then why aren't others doing the same?

Even if they’re nominally competing, arguably they’re after a different demographic – PP may consider that ADHD kids who don’t maintain interest in an upcoming product for more than a fortnight don’t ultimately make sustainable customers, while GW are happy to burn through new customers constantly so use strategies to target them.
Not really any different to the way, for example, Mercedes and Skoda are both ‘competing’ car manufacturers but you’re unlikely to see them chasing the same customers.

f2k
20-08-2012, 11:41
Most GW customers really dont stray from the one company too much. To me, they're competing against mantic and wyrd and PP, but to 5 other people like me in my local GW, they're not. There is only GW.

That might depend on the local community.

In the UK Games Workshop might still have a de facto monopoly on wargamming. Where I live, they're just another company - and one that's bleeding customers like you wouldn't believe it.

But, in all honesty, that doesn't really have much to do with the secrecy. It's mostly about the insane prices...

In any case, if you're right, then most players aren't really wargammers at all but rather Warhammer gamers. That is: they're not really interested in wargamming as such, only in the very narrow vision of wargamming that Games Workshop is presenting. Come to think of it, that might explain why they have such abysmal customer retention - they're actually selling wargames to people who aren't interested in them...

jack da greenskin
20-08-2012, 12:40
That might depend on the local community.

In the UK Games Workshop might still have a de facto monopoly on wargamming. Where I live, they're just another company - and one that's bleeding customers like you wouldn't believe it.

But, in all honesty, that doesn't really have much to do with the secrecy. It's mostly about the insane prices...

In any case, if you're right, then most players aren't really wargammers at all but rather Warhammer gamers. That is: they're not really interested in wargamming as such, only in the very narrow vision of wargamming that Games Workshop is presenting. Come to think of it, that might explain why they have such abysmal customer retention - they're actually selling wargames to people who aren't interested in them...

Didnt see your location :p What I said is largely a generalisation for the UK - There are groups of people like myself, Wargamers as you put it, and there are several other groups of GW gamers, not interested in rules, models, or games from anyone else, at all. I completely agree with everything else you put though.

Omniassiah
20-08-2012, 13:06
Didnt see your location :p What I said is largely a generalisation for the UK - There are groups of people like myself, Wargamers as you put it, and there are several other groups of GW gamers, not interested in rules, models, or games from anyone else, at all. I completely agree with everything else you put though.

That is the big problem with GW its their UK centric views. In my neck of the woods in the US it is odd for someone to be a GW purist, most likely they will also have at least a force of one of the other game systems out there in addition to GW having to compete with boardgames. And they are getting to the point where a good boardgame is cheaper then a single GW unit.

Edit: I also have to say that I hate people who don't put at least their country listed in their location. Makes it hard to frame what they are saying with some of the known differences of location.

ChrisMurray
20-08-2012, 14:23
Although I don't blame GW for the way they do releases, as they must have looked at their sales figures and concluded that at this time it works for them, I did like all the designers notes and videos they did for the Dark Eldar release. I would like to see them do that for all codex releases.

Elric
20-08-2012, 18:58
That might depend on the local community.

In the UK Games Workshop might still have a de facto monopoly on wargamming. Where I live, they're just another company - and one that's bleeding customers like you wouldn't believe it.

But, in all honesty, that doesn't really have much to do with the secrecy. It's mostly about the insane prices...

In any case, if you're right, then most players aren't really wargammers at all but rather Warhammer gamers. That is: they're not really interested in wargamming as such, only in the very narrow vision of wargamming that Games Workshop is presenting. Come to think of it, that might explain why they have such abysmal customer retention - they're actually selling wargames to people who aren't interested in them...
I think you're right here, most players are Warhammer players rather than war gamers. (at least most of the players I know only buy GW stuff on a regular basis, despite playing DBA, Ancients etc.)
and I think that exclusivity is part of of the GW mindset.
Bare in mind that I'm in the UK. There are only really GW stores around and I've never heard of a PP store or a FoW store.

All that been said, its probably still true that you shouldn't get too upset about not knowing which little plastic men are coming out in two months time.

f2k
20-08-2012, 19:40
All that been said, its probably still true that you shouldn't get too upset about not knowing which little plastic men are coming out in two months time.

Truth be told, I haven't been able to get upset about anything Games Workshop is doing for years now. I wish it was different, I really do. But every step of they way they seem to have made the wrong decision... Seem to want to drive me away.

I used to be a raving fanboy. And there are none as vocal as a fanboy turned hateboy. But now...?

Now, I couldn't care less. If they want to drive themselves into the ground, then so be it. I observe their antics with the same interest that I studied case-stories in uni. There's something strangely interesting about seeing a slow-motion train-wreck happening right in front of your eyes.

Now, if they would ever get around to releasing that * biiiiiiib * plastic Thunderhawk, then I might find myself getting worked up a bit about it. But since that would probably be a for-veterans-with-plenty-of-experience-and-spare-time-only, I doubt it's ever going to happen...

Inquisitor Engel
20-08-2012, 22:55
Now, if they would ever get around to releasing that * biiiiiiib * plastic Thunderhawk, then I might find myself getting worked up a bit about it. But since that would probably be a for-veterans-with-plenty-of-experience-and-spare-time-only, I doubt it's ever going to happen...

Indeed.

At this point I'd say I support eBay bitz sellers and Forge World more than GW proper, but a plastic Thunderhawk... :D

avien
20-08-2012, 23:18
...

In any case, if you're right, then most players aren't really wargammers at all but rather Warhammer gamers. That is: they're not really interested in wargamming as such, only in the very narrow vision of wargamming that Games Workshop is presenting. Come to think of it, that might explain why they have such abysmal customer retention - they're actually selling wargames to people who aren't interested in them...

I honestly find this kind of comment to be somewhat elitist. I don't think you can tell someone they are not a wargamer just because they only play one wargame.

I've seen this a few times, but only ever towards GW gamers, who I admit are more likely to only play one game, but nonetheless I don't agree with the sentiment.

I personally play mostly GW specialist games/40k, plus Firestorm armada and recently warpath. So did I only become a wargamer when I went outside of GWs systems, or is playing two or more GW systems enough to qualify by your definition, but only playing one system means you aren't a true wargamer?

I think there's a danger of being like hardcore video gamers, "you're not a real gamer until you have 600000000 gamer points on Xbox live" for example (yes I exaggerated for effect I know). It's stupid and elitist, and a touch sad and I would prefer not see this community go that direction.

As far as I am concerned, if you play one or more wargames, you are a wargamer.

On topic, I have to echo the dislike of the rumour clampdown. I liked the build up & anticipation, but it always seems that GW's marketing strategies are built on the pretense that the Internet isn't around, and print is king.

I clearly am not in possession of enough data to say whether their strategy is or isn't working for their bottom line for each release, but I don't like it. One thing I can say is that GW have gotten less of my money.

My next big purchase will be Eldar or Tau. Doesn't matter what is released in the meantime, they are the only new releases I'm interested in. So I guess the rumour clampdown doesn't particularly affect my spending habits, but I still would rather a couple of months of hype building, then they might actually get me to part with some money for new releases.

jack da greenskin
20-08-2012, 23:43
As far as I am concerned, if you play one or more wargames, you are a wargamer.


It's not us who's applying that label - its them. Ask many of the so called GW gamers I'm talking about what they are. They will state, catergorically, they are a "Warhammer player", or a "Games workshop hobbyist". They wont actively deny they're a "wargamer", but they dont encourage the term, both because it has "war" in it (irony, I know) and because it refers to competition, they simply dont care about.

TheNomadicCircle
21-08-2012, 02:32
Look at Perry Miniatures and how they have their greens and are the best historical miniatures.

Look at Reaper Miniatures and how they have their greens displayed and are the best fantasy miniatures.

GW are the worst miniatures company and I'm glad I don't buy from them any longer.

Omniassiah
21-08-2012, 03:48
It's not us who's applying that label - its them. Ask many of the so called GW gamers I'm talking about what they are. They will state, catergorically, they are a "Warhammer player", or a "Games workshop hobbyist". They wont actively deny they're a "wargamer", but they dont encourage the term, both because it has "war" in it (irony, I know) and because it refers to competition, they simply dont care about.

Must be a UK thing, don't get that much around these parts of the US, though we do get the "well obviously those rules are crap they aren't done by GW" and "I can't afford to spend $600 to $800 on a new game system like malifaux. What do you mean ifs only about $100 with rules must be cheap crap unlike GW"

Mastodon
21-08-2012, 06:36
On topic, I have to echo the dislike of the rumour clampdown. I liked the build up & anticipation, but it always seems that GW's marketing strategies are built on the pretense that the Internet isn't around, and print is king.

I clearly am not in possession of enough data to say whether their strategy is or isn't working for their bottom line for each release, but I don't like it. One thing I can say is that GW have gotten less of my money.


They dont work on the assumption the internet doesnt exist. They work on the premise that people on the internet don't matter. And they're right, since all the figures point to this strategy working.

paddyalexander
21-08-2012, 06:53
They dont work on the assumption the internet doesnt exist. They work on the premise that people on the internet don't matter. And they're right, since all the figures point to this strategy working.

What figures are these? They did state in their financial statement that the policy had been a success but then provided no data to back it up except that over all they had a good year due to an increase in volume sales by about 2%, thanks to including a 53rd week in the year. That volume increase dissappears when that week is taken into consideration.

Also I've expeirienced Games Workshop elitism as well, having run into people asuming that any game that isn't made by gwPLC isn't fun and only played by "power gamers" & jerks.

avien
21-08-2012, 07:50
They dont work on the assumption the internet doesnt exist. They work on the premise that people on the internet don't matter. And they're right, since all the figures point to this strategy working.

That's up for debate considering the apparent decline in sales volumes. I would argue that it is working short term, but agree with many who don't see it as a viable long term strategy. Yes the bottom line is increasing in monetary terms but not by the equivalent % increase in prices, which would suggest that the physical number of units sold is down, which either means less players or players buying less... Or a combination of the two IMO.

But hey, I'm no business analyst, so maybe they'll prove me wrong :P


It's not us who's applying that label - its them. Ask many of the so called GW gamers I'm talking about what they are. They will state, catergorically, they are a "Warhammer player", or a "Games workshop hobbyist". They wont actively deny they're a "wargamer", but they dont encourage the term, both because it has "war" in it (irony, I know) and because it refers to competition, they simply dont care about.

I haven't experienced this personally, but that's the flip side of anything I suppose, there will be those who take what I would view as derogatory ie "you're not a real wargamer, you're a GW gamer" and take it as a good thing... But while I accept what you are saying Jack, I have come across the GW gamer applied to a person rather than used by that person more than once.

f2k
21-08-2012, 09:24
I honestly find this kind of comment to be somewhat elitist. I don't think you can tell someone they are not a wargamer just because they only play one wargame.

I've seen this a few times, but only ever towards GW gamers, who I admit are more likely to only play one game, but nonetheless I don't agree with the sentiment.

I personally play mostly GW specialist games/40k, plus Firestorm armada and recently warpath. So did I only become a wargamer when I went outside of GWs systems, or is playing two or more GW systems enough to qualify by your definition, but only playing one system means you aren't a true wargamer?

I think there's a danger of being like hardcore video gamers, "you're not a real gamer until you have 600000000 gamer points on Xbox live" for example (yes I exaggerated for effect I know). It's stupid and elitist, and a touch sad and I would prefer not see this community go that direction.

As far as I am concerned, if you play one or more wargames, you are a wargamer.

I don’t find it elitist at all. A bit of a generalisation, I’ll admit, but not elitist...

I happen to play blood Bowl and I have a Space Hulk box hidden somewhere in the basement. Does that make me a boardgamer? Not at all, in my opinion. It simply means that I happen to like a few games that are played on boards.

In the same way, if you subscribe to the Games Workshop Hobby (TM) fallacy, then I don’t really think that you’re a wargammer. You simply play a game that happens to be classified as a wargame.


On topic, I have to echo the dislike of the rumour clampdown. I liked the build up & anticipation, but it always seems that GW's marketing strategies are built on the pretense that the Internet isn't around, and print is king.

I clearly am not in possession of enough data to say whether their strategy is or isn't working for their bottom line for each release, but I don't like it. One thing I can say is that GW have gotten less of my money.

My next big purchase will be Eldar or Tau. Doesn't matter what is released in the meantime, they are the only new releases I'm interested in. So I guess the rumour clampdown doesn't particularly affect my spending habits, but I still would rather a couple of months of hype building, then they might actually get me to part with some money for new releases.

But how can you know that there’s nothing there that you will be interested in? After all, you don’t know what’s going to be released next month...

That, to me, is the problem. I happen to have a fair amount of disposable income now, but back in uni I would often have to save for months and months if I wanted to buy an expensive model. No problem, right? Well, it is a problem when Games Workshop does limited releases like Dreadfleet. How am I supposed to save for that set when it was only available for a short while? What if I had just blown all my money on that Baneblade I wanted so badly the month before?

Showing pre-release’s not only gets me fired up and ready for the new shinny toys. It also allows me to budget my money so I can afford the model when it’s released.

avien
21-08-2012, 11:58
I don’t find it elitist at all. A bit of a generalisation, I’ll admit, but not elitist...

I happen to play blood Bowl and I have a Space Hulk box hidden somewhere in the basement. Does that make me a boardgamer? Not at all, in my opinion. It simply means that I happen to like a few games that are played on boards.

In the same way, if you subscribe to the Games Workshop Hobby (TM) fallacy, then I don’t really think that you’re a wargammer. You simply play a game that happens to be classified as a wargame.


Ok, I accept your reasoning, but only so far. If Someone for example only played WHFB , but didn't subscribe to the GW hobby (TM) and simply does not enjoy other wargames, that person is still wargamer in my view, if he views himself as a wargamer.

I get your point on the whole GW hobby (TM), and would agree to an extent.



But how can you know that there’s nothing there that you will be interested in? After all, you don’t know what’s going to be released next month...


Let's be honest here, GW is not the big mysterious entity they have the reputation of being.

You can be pretty sure of their releases, not down to the actual units or anything, but broadly speaking.

They aren't likely to release a whole new race - the Tau are what? 12 years old now? Ogres (I believe) were the last fantasy race introduced and even that was years ago... So you can be fairly certain that nothing particularly new is going to be released for the two main systems. So that just leaves updates of current ranges. And therefore the only thing I'm looking forward to is Tau and Eldar.



That, to me, is the problem. I happen to have a fair amount of disposable income now, but back in uni I would often have to save for months and months if I wanted to buy an expensive model. No problem, right? Well, it is a problem when Games Workshop does limited releases like Dreadfleet. How am I supposed to save for that set when it was only available for a short while? What if I had just blown all my money on that Baneblade I wanted so badly the month before?

Showing pre-release’s not only gets me fired up and ready for the new shinny toys. It also allows me to budget my money so I can afford the model when it’s released.

Dreadfleet is a poor example, that still hasn't sold out. If you want a copy Gamers World on Jervis Street, Dublin, Ireland still have 14 copies in their window as recently as Sunday gone.

But I get what you are saying, space hulk sold out pretty quick. I am going to take the advice of another poster who suggested a gaming fund. Im going to start that this month for exactly this reason, the rare once, maybe twice a year releases which really surprise.

Don't get me wrong, I happen to think we are in the same page on the rumour thing, I just don't think it has affected me much.

I would definitely prefer previews, like you it gets me fired up, but I still know Tau and eldar are coming, eventually...

6mmhero
22-08-2012, 09:43
I have seen the Gw gamer tag thrown around as an insult quite a bit. Normally by historical gamers (who also refer to FOW as warhammer ww2) who just have a disdain for anything that they do not deem proper wargaming. I have also seen people who play other sci fi games look down their nose at 40K gamers and visa versa. People love to feel that they are better than others for one reason or another (and you see it on this forum sometimes) but that is human nature.

Regarding the secrecy, it must have had a positive impact for them carry on with the policy. If it hadn't then I imagine that they would have made the window bigger again. Dreadfleet might be an example where they learnt as from what I have heard stores now have their copies of the new game to paint up for the release day rather than only receiving the box the night before etc. Still not much of a change but a step in the right direction (although the 40K ruleboook preorder day could have actually had the rulebook in store to look at).

Commissar Merces
22-08-2012, 16:41
Back on topic, someone just posted on our GW page that their local indie stores are already taking pre-orders for the new starter set and wanted to know if GW could start making pre-orders.

Also, someone who obviously hates the manager (NOT ME) posted all the leaked pictures at the same time.

I don't really approve of what these two posters did, but it does highlight a problem for GW's secrecy policy.

wilsongrahams
22-08-2012, 20:36
Another issue I have, that is related to the secrecy, is the limited edition release of the new 40k set. Now, having assumed I could get exactly the same as anybody else in october (Having spent all my current and september's free spending money on an engagement ring) means that I cannot in any way order the limited edition which means I will miss out. Now, if I had known it was coming out with more than a weeks notice, I could probably have saved some cash for it. The secrecy assumes we hold our money until we know what is coming out.

And don't get me started on Games Day miniatures... I'm unable to attend this year cos I have to work, so I have no way at all to get hold of that miniature. In previous years I could have bought the ticket, got the model and gave the ticket away.

Limited Edition etc doesn't make something sell better, it just sells to the first buyers whom will buy in bulk and then earn all the profit through ebay, whilst loyal customers who would want to give GW their money (sometimes regardless of price) are left with no option. The secrecy for rules I fully understand. They sell rules books and knowledge of the rules WILL hurt sales. Miniatures? Raging Heroes have advertised and done polls on their upcoming releases and this does not make me want the models more or less. I base my purchasing on the quality of the models, not the availability or surprise of not knowing it was due.

xxRavenxx
22-08-2012, 22:28
That, to me, is the problem. I happen to have a fair amount of disposable income now, but back in uni I would often have to save for months and months if I wanted to buy an expensive model. No problem, right? Well, it is a problem when Games Workshop does limited releases like Dreadfleet. How am I supposed to save for that set when it was only available for a short while? What if I had just blown all my money on that Baneblade I wanted so badly the month before?

It is the hope of a marketer that you will buy a baneblade, and then go OOH dreadfleet! and they will have twice the money from you.

In terms of general business, its a sound idea.

paddyalexander
22-08-2012, 22:47
It is the hope of a marketer that you will buy a baneblade, and then go OOH dreadfleet! and they will have twice the money from you.

In terms of general business, its a sound idea.

In general business it is a sound idea for products priced, placed & marketed at an impluse purchase level. I can't think of a single gwPLC product outside of the paints that fits that bill. I can put a lot of money aside for my hobby and I baulked at Dreadfleet as a general purchase, let alone an unplanned one I'd make in addittion to an existing purchase.

I knew that Pivateer Press' new products were coming out months in advance, I knew the prices & release dates for the models weeks if not months in advance from official sources and I was able to plan my purchasing. So I was able to buy 3 €125 models so far and have the cash put away for at least 4 more without putting any strain on my finances.

A model in the price range of €15 and up is not something I'd consider in the impulse purchase range, let alone products in the €60 to €100 range.

Omniassiah
22-08-2012, 23:54
In general business it is a sound idea for products priced, placed & marketed at an impluse purchase level. I can't think of a single gwPLC product outside of the paints that fits that bill. I can put a lot of money aside for my hobby and I baulked at Dreadfleet as a general purchase, let alone an unplanned one I'd make in addittion to an existing purchase.

I knew that Pivateer Press' new products were coming out months in advance, I knew the prices & release dates for the models weeks if not months in advance from official sources and I was able to plan my purchasing. So I was able to buy 3 €125 models so far and have the cash put away for at least 4 more without putting any strain on my finances.

A model in the price range of €15 and up is not something I'd consider in the impulse purchase range, let alone products in the €60 to €100 range.

This... Going for impulse purchase are great on lower cost items but a horrible idea on things that get out of the low cost range.

f2k
23-08-2012, 06:10
It is the hope of a marketer that you will buy a baneblade, and then go OOH dreadfleet! and they will have twice the money from you.

In terms of general business, its a sound idea.

But they're not getting twice the money - that's the point. I don't have twice the money, so it's either one or the other.

To twist the example a bit, suppose I had bought several new warjacks for WarMachine rather than a Baneblade. Now Games Workshop isn't getting any money at all. However, had I known that Dreadfleet was on its way I might have waited with the 'jacks and saved the money for Dreadfleet instead.

I fail to see how this can be good business sense. Games Workshop models are so far out of the impulse buy range that to expect people, let alone the youngsters that are Games Workshops primary targets, to come up with that kind of money on such short notice is just... Well... Stupid...

Chivs
23-08-2012, 09:41
It doesn't just have to be other manufacturers to take away the money due to secrecy. I've an interest in adding a unit of Meganobz to my Orks, but my port of call for that would be eBay rather than the Games Workshop webstore. If they hinted that there will be a plastic Meganobz box in the future, that's enough for me to hold off on the purchases. If they show pictures of what's coming up and they look good, I might start saving up, or making sure I've got other models painted so I can justify another new purchase with the wife.

Limited releases aside, I don't agree with the argument about needing to know in advance to make sure you can buy a model on release day. Our hobby works on much longer timescales, and if you have to wait a month or 2 to save for a set... well I'm sure we've all got a backlog of stuff we could work on in the meantime.
However it can lead to us making choices that prevent us from starting large scale projects, then GW may lose money from that. The person who'd love to start Tyranids, but not in their current form. He could wait around for months/years never knowing if it'll happen, or he could start playing that new game his friend recommended with the much cheaper models.
I'd love to do a Valhallan Imperial Guard army. I still think a Cadian infantry army would look cool, but Valhallan's will be better. I can use the force as allies for both my Space Marines and Orks, so have lots of reasons to start. If I start the Cadians, I won't start the Valhallans because it would be redundant (and I'd be very resentful to GW that the information was kept secret). But if I do start the Cadians, almost all of the 100odd guardsmen would come from eBay. If I did the Valhallans, I'd be buying new boxes.

Rick_1138
23-08-2012, 10:35
I dont have a massive problem with the release system style.

However the fact they do it the week before payday is a pain at times, especially with the limited stuff like the new rule books last onth or so.

However with the new Game in a box set there will be a heap of them so i am not bothered about getting it on release, but i do find it annoying you only find out how much it will cost on the weekend before release, have to see if i can justify that a week before getting paid as you have to pay on the day of ordering.

But its not life or death, just a pest, but getting to see how much it costs before being able to order a bit in advance i.e. but if i have the pennies i will buy it, but just a gripe i have as its nice to plan out my spends a wee bit.

Though from the leaked pics i have seen the new set looks very good, another step up from black reach etc.

Havock
24-08-2012, 10:51
Unfortunately for GW, they are now (for the last year really) competing for scarce hobby dollars, and usually when I get to my local shop I already have in mind what I'll buy. Right now, I have two major purchases slotted in, and will not likely deviate from them because I've been salivating over them for months. One is a Woldwrath and the other is an Archangel-- both sold by Privateer Press. Privateer has kept my interest in them by releasing rumors at conventions (which GW does not so much have any more), stuff released on the internet, and even spoiling stats in their No Quarter for the Woldwrath. It's a different marketing philosophy, but it works for me. Not only am I committed to buying them now, but they actually have relevant information in their hobby magazine as a result.

Congratulations.

You are 'no longer' a part of GW's target audience ;)

paddyalexander
24-08-2012, 11:44
Congratulations.

You are 'no longer' a part of GW's target audience ;)

Of course not, he is aware of the existance of the internet. :eek:

Omniassiah
24-08-2012, 15:28
Congratulations.

You are 'no longer' a part of GW's target audience ;)

I hope your being sarastic. If not I want a marketing job where I can say that. Honestly anyone who is buying a non-historical tabletop sci-fi/fantasy game is definitely in GW's target audience. Of course I think we have nailed another problem with GW if you don'tb uy from them then your not our market mentality.

shelfunit.
24-08-2012, 16:10
I hope your being sarastic. If not I want a marketing job where I can say that. Honestly anyone who is buying a non-historical tabletop sci-fi/fantasy game is definitely in GW's target audience. Of course I think we have nailed another problem with GW if you don'tb uy from them then your not our market mentality.

GW (well Mr Kirby at least if I recall) are on record as saying they are "in the business of selling toy soldiers to children". If you are not a child then you are not their target market.

Havock
26-08-2012, 22:44
I hope your being sarastic. If not I want a marketing job where I can say that. Honestly anyone who is buying a non-historical tabletop sci-fi/fantasy game is definitely in GW's target audience. Of course I think we have nailed another problem with GW if you don'tb uy from them then your not our market mentality.

Yes, in a way. What I mean is that he is not what GW is actively aiming at -anymore-: he has an army and is pretty much a 'picky vet': most likely his local community is what keeps him somewhat glued to GW, so anything he buys: great, but they are not going to spend a lot of effort/money in 'getting him back into the folds'.

Omniassiah
27-08-2012, 00:15
Yes, in a way. What I mean is that he is not what GW is actively aiming at -anymore-: he has an army and is pretty much a 'picky vet': most likely his local community is what keeps him somewhat glued to GW, so anything he buys: great, but they are not going to spend a lot of effort/money in 'getting him back into the folds'.

Funny part is marketing 101, for every $1 you don't spend to keep a current customer you have to spend $6 recruiting a new one to replace him. Only under specific circumstances will you find that recruiting new people at the cost of old will be more favorable. Those products are normally a combination of cheap, consumable, Faddish (guess that is a word), or only ever a one time buy. How many do GW's products fall under... none.

Havock
27-08-2012, 00:29
Well he is still a customer, just one they already got a very good amount of money from :)

Inquisitor Engel
27-08-2012, 02:04
This... Going for impulse purchase are great on lower cost items but a horrible idea on things that get out of the low cost range.

5 years ago I would have agreed with this, but I will say that nowadays, a $40 purchase is still kind of an impulse buy for me. Granted, I don't have kids...

I think once you consider buying Forge World as a reasonable purchase for what you're looking at (Tartaros Terminators versus regular for instance, MKII Eldar Falcon conversion kit etc.) you turn into a different target demographic - the one shelling out for specialized army boxes on launch and things like the Company of Space Marines.

Finnigan2004
27-08-2012, 02:31
I think once you consider buying Forge World as a reasonable purchase for what you're looking at (Tartaros Terminators versus regular for instance, MKII Eldar Falcon conversion kit etc.) you turn into a different target demographic...


We're known as Canadians and Australians, and we usually only get to the stage where Forge World stuff looks reasonable after we have the epiphany that the cost difference between Forge World and crapcast is not that great ;).

Inquisitor Engel
27-08-2012, 07:12
We're known as Canadians and Australians, and we usually only get to the stage where Forge World stuff looks reasonable after we have the epiphany that the cost difference between Forge World and crapcast is not that great ;).

I live in Texas. :shifty:

Finnigan2004
27-08-2012, 22:47
I saw that, Inquisitor. If you want to feel better about your prices in the U.S., check the Canadian site. If you want to bust a gut laughing, check out the Australian site.

ewar
02-09-2012, 18:39
GW (well Mr Kirby at least if I recall) are on record as saying they are "in the business of selling toy soldiers to children". If you are not a child then you are not their target market.

Which record? I'm sure you could point us to it as I see a lot of people bandy this quote around.

As an aside, the rumour clampdown has increased their sales (they said so in their annual report, which is audited by PwC and the information given in that must be supported by data). So fewer rumours + more sales = why would they change to please a bunch of anonymous internet forumites?

Honestly - I'm going to have to stop reading GW General again, every couple of months I forget what it's like down here and it really depresses me.

How can anyone feel like they are being treated as an 'enemy' of a corporation?? Really? A company that makes and sells plastic soldiers doesn't give enough warning about what soldiers are coming out in future - there is something seriously imbalanced in someone's life if that is the case.

Also, why do people write gwPLC? Is the PLC tag supposed to be some kind of inferred insult? It just means publicly limited instead of privately limited - do we now have to say PPinc or Mantic Ltd? They're businesses, trying to make a return on their investors capital, if you don't like it start one up yourself and for the love of god stop talking about it on the internet until your fingers bleed.

Inquisitor Engel
02-09-2012, 19:02
Also, why do people write gwPLC? Is the PLC tag supposed to be some kind of inferred insult? It just means publicly limited instead of privately limited - do we now have to say PPinc or Mantic Ltd? They're businesses, trying to make a return on their investors capital, if you don't like it start one up yourself and for the love of god stop talking about it on the internet until your fingers bleed.

I think this is done to encapsulate ALL of GW's earnings, as Forge World, licensing royalties and the like all come in separately.

Elric
02-09-2012, 19:19
I think this is done to encapsulate ALL of GW's earnings, as Forge World, licensing royalties and the like all come in separately.

Which would make sense if the company was called games workshop PLC, it isn't its called Games Workshop Group PLC so if people absolutely have to use the PLC they should use GWG PLC. Or use GW like everyone else.
That been said, i just put everyone who uses it on ignore,it massively reduces my irritation level.

ps love the Eldar log.

rich1231
02-09-2012, 20:42
Which record? I'm sure you could point us to it as I see a lot of people bandy this quote around.

As an aside, the rumour clampdown has increased their sales (they said so in their annual report, which is audited by PwC and the information given in that must be supported by data). So fewer rumours + more sales = why would they change to please a bunch of anonymous internet forumites?

Honestly - I'm going to have to stop reading GW General again, every couple of months I forget what it's like down here and it really depresses me.

How can anyone feel like they are being treated as an 'enemy' of a corporation?? Really? A company that makes and sells plastic soldiers doesn't give enough warning about what soldiers are coming out in future - there is something seriously imbalanced in someone's life if that is the case.

Also, why do people write gwPLC? Is the PLC tag supposed to be some kind of inferred insult? It just means publicly limited instead of privately limited - do we now have to say PPinc or Mantic Ltd? They're businesses, trying to make a return on their investors capital, if you don't like it start one up yourself and for the love of god stop talking about it on the internet until your fingers bleed.

It has not increased sales with regards to volume of product, so the rumour clampdown how increases sales? Are you saying that rumour clampdown helps price support of the items impacted by price increases?

I am not sure how the analysis stacks up. Increased sales with reducing volume of product is what has happened, that is due to price increases and dropping sales volume being less than the increased revenue from increases. There is a tipping point that could be reached, GW will continue until that point is met, which I expect to occur just as the Hobbit bubble shrinks late 2014.

Art Is Resistance
02-09-2012, 21:04
Meh I really couldn't careless. I started playing before they had a website, (or was it just that I didn't have internet??) So it doesn't really bother me. I know what armies I like and teasers/rumours/pics aren't going to convince me to start collecting something e.g. marines, only a good model set (IMHO of course!) will do that so it really makes no difference!


Which record? I'm sure you could point us to it as I see a lot of people bandy this quote around.

Whilst it wasn't Tom Kirby who said it to me directly, a very senior GW staffer explained this to me during the summer of 2009 (I was spending a lot of time at WhW) - The 'Core Audience' for GWs attentions was the new and intermediate gamer. Those people (regardless of age I will add) that need advice and guidance on what to buy once they have the relevant starter set (the so-called 'recruits' by the new policy). Vets, whilst not being 'ignored' as the forums such as here and Dakka would have you believe, are seen by Gw as not needing the attention as they know what they want to buy next, how to paint, how to build their armies etc...

Which leads me back OT....

I'm old enough to remember when the first sight of a new mini or range was in WD - one that comes straight to mind is when the Aspect Warrior greens appeared - it was a good 12 months out from the release, and I must have asked in my local GW a million times when they were coming out. It's true that the world has changed, and I'll probably be in the minority, but I don't think for the better. Rumour boards such as here and others have ruined the anticipation that used to be there for upcoming releases, spoiling the party for all with the 'leaks' - the behaviour of BoW over the Necron release was, in my opinion, unethical at worst, selfish at best.

I really don't have a problem with the lockdown - as with a few others, I have a budget that is set for what I'll spend each month, and if I don't spend it, then I roll it over to next month and so on - the money's waiting there for when something comes out that I want. Am I bothered by a lack of rumours? No. Do I still get excited at new releases? Yes, probably more so as they're not spoiled by infantile poorly educated opinions.

We've got to be honest with ourselves here - we've spoiled the party, not GW by demanding more and more rumours and leaks. At the end of the day, GW to sell the stuff that's out now.

Ronin[XiC]
02-09-2012, 21:08
If you don't want to read the rumours, don't read the rumours...

Art Is Resistance
02-09-2012, 21:15
;6404155']If you don't want to read the rumours, don't read the rumours...

Which I don't.

What I do find wrong though is the whining about a lack of rumours which, on reflection is a reaction to the blatant leaking and spoiling that some seem to revel in. Its widely known that many so called rumours were leaked by GW on purpose, but when the leak turned into a torrent, they clamped down. And is it any wonder that they took this attitude?

It may also be the case that to stop the leeches, SORRY, '3rd party parts manufacturers' keeping everything under wraps until a week out is, in their opinion, the best way to combat blatant profiteering by others?

ewar
02-09-2012, 21:24
It has not increased sales with regards to volume of product, so the rumour clampdown how increases sales? Are you saying that rumour clampdown helps price support of the items impacted by price increases?

I am not sure how the analysis stacks up. Increased sales with reducing volume of product is what has happened, that is due to price increases and dropping sales volume being less than the increased revenue from increases. There is a tipping point that could be reached, GW will continue until that point is met, which I expect to occur just as the Hobbit bubble shrinks late 2014.

Why would the hobbit bubble have any impact on the existing product lines? Once those sales go away, and GW has already been burned by this before so will be in a much better position to manage the expectations of stock holders.

Look - an international company the size of GW doesn't run itself by accident. So many people here presume to tell them how to run their business but when it comes down to it, they seem to be doing an ok job in respect to key metrics.

They have all the data - of which there will be lot and lots - to make the sales and marketing decisions they do. I'm not in a position to say whether its right or wrong, and none of the armchair managers on here do either. Time of course will tell, but if the doomsday scenarios DO actually happen it won't be overnight and investors will push a change of management. Either way, it's no reason to lose any sleep.

Art Is Resistance
02-09-2012, 21:32
Look - an international company the size of GW doesn't run itself by accident. S

This is actually, pretty damn true.

Of course, the armchair accountants, operational managers and other dwellers of GW General will have you think that, but for the grace of god, they should be running GW as they see fit - of course, this is much, much better than GW do themselves.

Back OT - GW's marketing strategy hasn't changed much in 20 years - no external advertising etc... What did change was the advent of the internet which, just as with the entertainment industry, has had an effect on how their business is run, whether they like it or not.

rich1231
02-09-2012, 21:44
Why would the hobbit bubble have any impact on the existing product lines? Once those sales go away, and GW has already been burned by this before so will be in a much better position to manage the expectations of stock holders.

Look - an international company the size of GW doesn't run itself by accident. So many people here presume to tell them how to run their business but when it comes down to it, they seem to be doing an ok job in respect to key metrics.

They have all the data - of which there will be lot and lots - to make the sales and marketing decisions they do. I'm not in a position to say whether its right or wrong, and none of the armchair managers on here do either. Time of course will tell, but if the doomsday scenarios DO actually happen it won't be overnight and investors will push a change of management. Either way, it's no reason to lose any sleep.

Because an increase in sales followed by a contraction is a risk to any business. They mismanaged it the last time. You might not think its a problem, but I bet it has been thought about at length and is considered a risk at GW.

Look - An International - do you know how patronising that sounded. I do know how companies work thanks. I don't think i said it was a bad thing for GW to be secretive, but I think its a bad thing for their customers and retailers which is a different issue.

Art Is Resistance
02-09-2012, 21:47
Rich - but don't you have a vested interest in rumours as they may well drive sales for you, rather than directly for GW?

ewar
02-09-2012, 22:11
Because an increase in sales followed by a contraction is a risk to any business. They mismanaged it the last time. You might not think its a problem, but I bet it has been thought about at length and is considered a risk at GW.

Look - An International - do you know how patronising that sounded. I do know how companies work thanks. I don't think i said it was a bad thing for GW to be secretive, but I think its a bad thing for their customers and retailers which is a different issue.

Apologies, I didn't mean to come across as patronising. There are just a lot of people on here who think that GW is run like a corner shop; the senior sales and finance people will know intimately whether their decisions regarding rumour clampdowns are improving sales or not. No amount of speculation on warseer will show one way or the other.

rich1231
02-09-2012, 22:34
Rich - but don't you have a vested interest in rumours as they may well drive sales for you, rather than directly for GW?

Yep, I think I make that pretty clear in my post above. Its not just about sales to us though, I have made it clear even to other retailers hostile to internet retailers that GW are not protecting them with their actions but have a direct model that they have been turning the taps on over the last few years. They can sell a smaller volume of product and make more money when all strategies are in concert. I think its short termist and flawed, I would be seeking to grow the market not allow it to shrink. When and if the strategy is proved wrong then they might change tact.

If I was a major GW shareholder then I would be paying attention.

Omniassiah
02-09-2012, 22:56
Look - an international company the size of GW doesn't run itself by accident. So many people here presume to tell them how to run their business but when it comes down to it, they seem to be doing an ok job in respect to key metrics.

They have all the data - of which there will be lot and lots - to make the sales and marketing decisions they do. I'm not in a position to say whether its right or wrong, and none of the armchair managers on here do either. Time of course will tell, but if the doomsday scenarios DO actually happen it won't be overnight and investors will push a change of management. Either way, it's no reason to lose any sleep.


Apologies, I didn't mean to come across as patronising. There are just a lot of people on here who think that GW is run like a corner shop; the senior sales and finance people will know intimately whether their decisions regarding rumour clampdowns are improving sales or not. No amount of speculation on warseer will show one way or the other.

Surprisingly a lot of international companies do. A good chunk of the US auto industry and housing industry seemed to disagree with you along with several nations including the old Soviet Union, and multiple ones today. The problem is not that they don't have the information but that they may be so out of touch with where the information is coming from that they are improperly understanding it. This is part of the issue with using sales volume, total revenue, and other bulk data, Sure you may have sold an extra 100k units this year but you lost 75k units of something that makes you $12 per sale for 175k of something that made you $.25 per sale. Same thing where from an outside stand point the grand numbers for GW look great until you start looking at the information that wasn't included in the report that we know of, like the price increases.

honestly the hardest thing in business is understanding your market and financial data. Sadly, GW is only operating with what is hopefully proper financial data as they have no true marketing department. That means they severally risk looking at the information the wrong way. What makes it worse is they still have a very UK centric view which means they ignore competition that they do have, especially in the US.

ewar
02-09-2012, 23:33
Surprisingly a lot of international companies do. A good chunk of the US auto industry and housing industry seemed to disagree with you along with several nations including the old Soviet Union, and multiple ones today. The problem is not that they don't have the information but that they may be so out of touch with where the information is coming from that they are improperly understanding it. This is part of the issue with using sales volume, total revenue, and other bulk data, Sure you may have sold an extra 100k units this year but you lost 75k units of something that makes you $12 per sale for 175k of something that made you $.25 per sale. Same thing where from an outside stand point the grand numbers for GW look great until you start looking at the information that wasn't included in the report that we know of, like the price increases.

honestly the hardest thing in business is understanding your market and financial data. Sadly, GW is only operating with what is hopefully proper financial data as they have no true marketing department. That means they severally risk looking at the information the wrong way. What makes it worse is they still have a very UK centric view which means they ignore competition that they do have, especially in the US.

Sorry, I strongly disagree. The examples you cite all had external socio-political factors causing them to act in specific ways (political ideology, US auto unions, healthcare costs etc) which constricted their actions.

You're making a lot of qualitative assumptions with no basis (as far as I can tell). You have no idea what management intend to do/how they consider the US market as there is simply no information avaiable to us. Is there any even vaguely reliable data on the market as a whole? I haven't heard of any. The market could have constricted 5% and GW could be growing market share for all we know.

Your example is flawed - there is no listed company in the world that doesn't examine every minute facet of it's sales data. Whether they understand the market or not, I guess only time will tell, however I suspect they are not as ignorant as everyone online would have you believe. I don't like their prices or practices too much, but I respect that they are the ones in the best position to know how to maximise their income.

logan054
03-09-2012, 00:34
As an aside, the rumour clampdown has increased their sales (they said so in their annual report, which is audited by PwC and the information given in that must be supported by data). So fewer rumours + more sales = why would they change to please a bunch of anonymous internet forumites?

I actually don't agree with this, I don't think the clamp down on rumours has had anything to do with this, telling me about the new VC bok several month in advance would not have stopped by dropping a bunch of cash on it, bar a few things I think its a really well written book and I enjoy using it far more than my other armies, because of this I have replaced the models I bought from Mantic (Bar the zombies) with GW models. I also think the latest set of plastic models having been pretty damn amazing, I love the VC range, the new 40k models from the starter set are something else really. I think its those things that are more to do with more sales than not getting people excited about future releases.

Shadowfane
03-09-2012, 14:28
I actually don't agree with this, I don't think the clamp down on rumours has had anything to do with this, telling me about the new VC bok several month in advance would not have stopped by dropping a bunch of cash on it, bar a few things I think its a really well written book and I enjoy using it far more than my other armies, because of this I have replaced the models I bought from Mantic (Bar the zombies) with GW models. I also think the latest set of plastic models having been pretty damn amazing, I love the VC range, the new 40k models from the starter set are something else really. I think its those things that are more to do with more sales than not getting people excited about future releases.

IF 1 = anecdote
THEN 2 = data
?

Zond
03-09-2012, 15:04
If GW's secrecy is working for them in terms of sales, more power to them I guess. I personally dislike it as I like to plan my purchases in advance by a reasonable amount and I'm not very prone to impulse buying so their current policy does not benefit myself.

logan054
04-09-2012, 00:41
IF 1 = anecdote
THEN 2 = data
?

no, 2 = my own person opinion based on my own experience, then again being someone who hasn't just started the hobby my approach is very different, that said if someone is new to the hobby chances are they wont be looking for rumours of what is going to come out yet, they will more likely be in GW with random assortment of models learning how to play. I dunno if I start a new army I tend to read the armybook before I start buying the models which is something I tend to think most people do. Not finding out about the rules for WoC until release day would not have changed my opinion on the changes to the army, these had already been formed when they released the DoC book and WD WoC list (since the release I have not been able to create a armylist I like until FW stepped in).

In sort, if its something you like you will spend the cash, if its not you wont, its not like we are talking about a women playing hard to get!

paddyalexander
04-09-2012, 01:06
I had played Eldar as a side army back in 2nd edition, owning a fair amount of infantry but very few vehicles. I took a fair sized break from 3rd ed but when I got back into the game I focused more on the new hotness that were the Necrons and Tau. So my Eldar stuff sat in a box and collected dust for a few years.

Then the news broke about the 4th ed Eldar, the new models looked great and the rules that got leaked were awesome. So I literly dusted off my Eldar collection with two months to go before the release. In that time I bought 4 wave serpents, 6 vipers and about a dozen or so blisters to max out my aspect squads as well as planned out my budget so that I could buy a few boxes of Dire Avengers, some Wraithlords, some of the new Ranger/Pathfinder models and two Autharh kits.

Under the current policy of announcing the new releases a week or two before their release with no official information available on how the new models & units actualy play I think I might not have bought back into the Eldar like I did.

A friend of mine likes the Chaos Chosen models in Dark Vengance so much that he wants to get the boxset. Unfortunitly he is unemployed and ends up with a whopping €12 of cash every week that doesn't have to be spent on essentials like food, rent & electricity. So he can live like a monk for 7 weeks and be able to afford it. If he had been given more lead time and had seen the models sooner then he could have been saving in the run up to its release. Instead the odds are that that money will end up going to some cheeper privateer press release or x-box game that will be released in the meantime.

Mastodon
04-09-2012, 06:57
I had played Eldar as a side army back in 2nd edition, owning a fair amount of infantry but very few vehicles. I took a fair sized break from 3rd ed but when I got back into the game I focused more on the new hotness that were the Necrons and Tau. So my Eldar stuff sat in a box and collected dust for a few years.

Then the news broke about the 4th ed Eldar, the new models looked great and the rules that got leaked were awesome. So I literly dusted off my Eldar collection with two months to go before the release. In that time I bought 4 wave serpents, 6 vipers and about a dozen or so blisters to max out my aspect squads as well as planned out my budget so that I could buy a few boxes of Dire Avengers, some Wraithlords, some of the new Ranger/Pathfinder models and two Autharh kits.

Under the current policy of announcing the new releases a week or two before their release with no official information available on how the new models & units actualy play I think I might not have bought back into the Eldar like I did.

A friend of mine likes the Chaos Chosen models in Dark Vengance so much that he wants to get the boxset. Unfortunitly he is unemployed and ends up with a whopping €12 of cash every week that doesn't have to be spent on essentials like food, rent & electricity. So he can live like a monk for 7 weeks and be able to afford it. If he had been given more lead time and had seen the models sooner then he could have been saving in the run up to its release. Instead the odds are that that money will end up going to some cheeper privateer press release or x-box game that will be released in the meantime.

Or he could not spend the frankly shockingly low amount of money the JSA give him on plastic toys.

And i've said this before, and I'll say it again. If he really wants those Chosen, he'll save up and buy them. If he spends his money on something cheaper, he'd probably have done that anyway.

logan054
04-09-2012, 07:16
Or he could not spend the frankly shockingly low amount of money the JSA give him on plastic toys.

What are you on about it, its loads of cash..... its not like you completely screwed if your locked into any contracts such as a mobile or anything..

6mmhero
04-09-2012, 13:04
The thing with the rumour clampdown is they do not want people holding back on their purchases waiting for what might be release in few months. They want you to be excited about the current release and to buy them. It also comes down to the fact that a lot of leaks are bad grainy pics and half finished rules. Just look at the leaked 40K book and the nerd rage that inspired both then and when people realised that the actual rules were different.

I think the clampdown has been good for me as I am no longer thinking about what might be around the corner and concentrating on the project in front of me.

As I have said before, if this policy does not do anything good for GW then they will no doubt change it.

f2k
04-09-2012, 15:03
The thing with the rumour clampdown is they do not want people holding back on their purchases waiting for what might be release in few months. They want you to be excited about the current release and to buy them. It also comes down to the fact that a lot of leaks are bad grainy pics and half finished rules. Just look at the leaked 40K book and the nerd rage that inspired both then and when people realised that the actual rules were different.

Which is why Games Workshop needs to control the “leaks” by doing them themselves like so many other companies are doing.


I think the clampdown has been good for me as I am no longer thinking about what might be around the corner and concentrating on the project in front of me.

Been good for me too. I don’t have to worry about what Games Workshop product I should be saving for and can instead spend freely on (or save as needed for) models from other companies.

Good for me? Yes. Good for Games Workshop? Not so much...



As I have said before, if this policy does not do anything good for GW then they will no doubt change it.

Given their current track record, I somehow doubt it...

tiger g
04-09-2012, 15:25
A friend of mine likes the Chaos Chosen models in Dark Vengance so much that he wants to get the boxset. Unfortunitly he is unemployed and ends up with a whopping €12 of cash every week that doesn't have to be spent on essentials like food, rent & electricity. So he can live like a monk for 7 weeks and be able to afford it. If he had been given more lead time and had seen the models sooner then he could have been saving in the run up to its release. Instead the odds are that that money will end up going to some cheeper privateer press release or x-box game that will be released in the meantime.

I think your friend should not be concerned on spending any money on his hobby in his current financial situation.

paddyalexander
04-09-2012, 17:30
I think your friend should not be concerned on spending any money on his hobby in his current financial situation.

Whats the alternitive, right now war gaming is one of the few luxeries he is indulging in. That €12 is his "me" money. How he chooses on spending it, a few pints with the lads, a cinema ticket, a novel or a second hand computer game are his to make. You expect him to live like a robot? He's saved for expensive stuff before, most recently he was able to walk into a store and buy a Khador Colossal for Warmachine (€100 with a €25 gift voucher) because he'd know it was coming for months before hand and was able to save to be able to get it.

Thats the point I was trying to make. He can save for the stuff he wants as long as he knows that they are coming out. Now Dark Vengance is out, he knows about it but he is also saving for other stuff he had already known is coming out like the new Khador plastic warjack kit and some super nintendo games he wants. So the question is will he save for the seven or eight weeks that it will take to get enough to buy Dark Vengance or will the disire and appeal not last that long.

Inquisitor Kallus
04-09-2012, 17:33
Whats the alternitive, right now war gaming is one of the few luxeries he is indulging in. That €12 is his "me" money. How he chooses on spending it, a few pints with the lads, a cinema ticket, a novel or a second hand computer game are his to make. You expect him to live like a robot? He's saved for expensive stuff before, most recently he was able to walk into a store and buy a Khador Colossal for Warmachine (€100 with a €25 gift voucher) because he'd know it was coming for months before hand and was able to save to be able to get it.

Thats the point I was trying to make. He can save for the stuff he wants as long as he knows that they are coming out. Now Dark Vengance is out, he knows about it but he is also saving for other stuff he had already known is coming out like the new Khador plastic warjack kit and some super nintendo games he wants. So the question is will he save for the seven or eight weeks that it will take to get enough to buy Dark Vengance or will the disire and appeal not last that long.

I think what people are implying is that he shouldn't really be spending that money on 'toy soldiers' . That, or im completely wrong?:confused:

xxRavenxx
04-09-2012, 18:29
Which is why Games Workshop needs to control the “leaks” by doing them themselves like so many other companies are doing.


Doesn't work though does it? They arrange to press release it 2 weeks earlier, someone will have to have the info earlier, so the leak just happens 2 weeks earlier than last time.

Look at MTG. They arrange a careful set of spoilers, 70% of which are leaked prior to the unveiling.

I'm not saying the timing GW pick is right, but I'm pointing out that going earlier won't stop leaks.

x-esiv-4c
04-09-2012, 18:32
The leaks that you see on forums are with GWs approval, there are no "unapproved" leaks.

Scammel
04-09-2012, 18:44
The leaks that you see on forums are with GWs approval, there are no "unapproved" leaks.

Sorry, but this isn't the case. There most certainly are unsanctioned leaks, on at least one occasion via the printers.

6mmhero
04-09-2012, 18:49
Given their current track record, I somehow doubt it...

Well that is difficult to say. They are seriously not doing this just to be mean, there will be a business reason behind it and you may find that this is developed upon. But yes I believe that they should look at how they release information and what new efforts can be tried (at least they have started down the teaser video route even if the teasers don't really say anything).

While you like to save up for something when you see a leak, what would happen if by the time the product became available for purchase, some other shiny new toy had been leaked that you had to have. Would you buy both or hold off yet again?
I reason I ask that is I imagine that is their thinking behind the limited info window.

sycopat
04-09-2012, 19:09
I think what people are implying is that he shouldn't really be spending that money on 'toy soldiers' . That, or im completely wrong?:confused:

And what say do they have in it exactly? If the guy can save 12 squid of his dole money (i.e: Have it left over after living expenses are deducted), why can't he do what he wants with it?

It's 12 quid, in Ireland that's about 2 pints on a night out(and bus fare home if we're being optimistic) or 4-6 coffees in a week. It's only a substantial sum of money if it's saved up over 10+ years, and I doubt anyone with an expensive hobby like ours has any intention of being on the dole that long.

I'm confused myself as to why people think they can dictate what others do with the spare cash they have from daring to live within their means?

Inquisitor Kallus
04-09-2012, 19:28
And what say do they have in it exactly? If the guy can save 12 squid of his dole money (i.e: Have it left over after living expenses are deducted), why can't he do what he wants with it?

It's 12 quid, in Ireland that's about 2 pints on a night out(and bus fare home if we're being optimistic) or 4-6 coffees in a week. It's only a substantial sum of money if it's saved up over 10+ years, and I doubt anyone with an expensive hobby like ours has any intention of being on the dole that long.

I'm confused myself as to why people think they can dictate what others do with the spare cash they have from daring to live within their means?

Im not saying they do have any say in it.......

f2k
04-09-2012, 19:40
Doesn't work though does it? They arrange to press release it 2 weeks earlier, someone will have to have the info earlier, so the leak just happens 2 weeks earlier than last time.

Look at MTG. They arrange a careful set of spoilers, 70% of which are leaked prior to the unveiling.

I'm not saying the timing GW pick is right, but I'm pointing out that going earlier won't stop leaks.

The object isn’t really to stop leaks – it is to control them.

Look at Privateer Press, for example, they do a quite good job slowly building up hype by letting designers and sculptors post preview images on their blogs. Why, they even publish rules in No Quarter! There was a time where Games Workshop did that too, but no more...


Well that is difficult to say. They are seriously not doing this just to be mean, there will be a business reason behind it and you may find that this is developed upon. But yes I believe that they should look at how they release information and what new efforts can be tried (at least they have started down the teaser video route even if the teasers don't really say anything).

They should indeed. But they probably won’t...

And I do actually believe that they do it, at least partly, to be mean. Mean, at least, to the independent retailers. Who knows everything about the upcoming releases? The Games Workshop Webshop. Who knows little about upcoming releases but can usually always get the new releases promptly and on time? Games Workshop brand stores. Who knows next to nothing and will often have problems getting orders in at such short notice? The independent stores.

I firmly believe that they want to shift as much purchases to the webshop as they possibly can. I might be wrong, but I fear I’m not – the evidence certainly points in that direction. And having freelanced at several independent stores, I have seen lots of shenanigans pulled by Games Workshop...



While you like to save up for something when you see a leak, what would happen if by the time the product became available for purchase, some other shiny new toy had been leaked that you had to have. Would you buy both or hold off yet again?
I reason I ask that is I imagine that is their thinking behind the limited info window.

Personally, I would buy the one I felt I needed the most. Or, you might say, the shiniest new toy...

However, I think it’s the wrong question to ask. The question should be: if you’ve saved for something for months, bought it yesterday, and Games Workshop now drops a brand new model in their shops; how do you scrape together the extra money needed?

And the answer, I think, leastwise for those of us who do not have an endless supply of money, to that question is that we simply don’t. If I just blew all my savings on a tasty Colossal for WarMachine today, and Games Workshop released a plastic Thunderhawk tomorrow (and boy, do I want such a kit) then, no matter how much I might be salivating at the thought of having that kit, I wouldn't be able to buy it as I just blew all my money on a model from another company. Had I know that the ‘hawk was about to land though, it would have been a very different story...

xxRavenxx
04-09-2012, 21:43
The object isn’t really to stop leaks – it is to control them.

Look at Privateer Press, for example, they do a quite good job slowly building up hype by letting designers and sculptors post preview images on their blogs. Why, they even publish rules in No Quarter! There was a time where Games Workshop did that too, but no more...

I think they are a terrible example though. Last year they announced the Road Hog. It took somewhere in the vicinity of eight months to come out, by which point my regulars who play farrow had entirely forgotten about the model.

logan054
05-09-2012, 12:59
The thing with the rumour clampdown is they do not want people holding back on their purchases waiting for what might be release in few months. They want you to be excited about the current release and to buy them. It also comes down to the fact that a lot of leaks are bad grainy pics and half finished rules. Just look at the leaked 40K book and the nerd rage that inspired both then and when people realised that the actual rules were different.

I wasn't aware that 6th ed flopped....

6mmhero
05-09-2012, 13:01
Well last I heard was that they make more profit from selling to indys than through their own stores so like I said I doubt this is just a reason to be mean (even to indy's). As an aside I have heard a number of horror stories relating to trade etc but this is not one of them.
At the end of the day they want to control the information and how it comes out so they can display it in the best possible light rather than grainey images from a scanned White Dwarf followed by endless pages on forums of product X looks rubbish or product Y is overpowered (granted in some cases that can be warranted such as the Pumbargor).

While a number of people can only save for one product and then can't afford something else until they save again, there are the people who will get caught up in the "moment" and impulse buy a product. Now if the leaks are out 6 weeks before the product (X) comes up for pre-order you get all excited and want to buy said item. Then by the time it comes up for pre-order some other new toy has reared its shiny head (Y) and you think well did I really want (X) or should I just wait for (Y). Where as based on the current system the idea should be that you see (X) as it comes up for pre-order and in you excitement pre order this. Then once this toy has been released for a week (Y) gets its first glimpse and is available to order and you think wow need to have one of those.

Not saying it works all of the time but you can see why they do it. Presumably their internal data will support this otherwise they would either change tack or modify the process slightly once hey have enough data to see either way. It will be interesting to see if anything is show cased at UK GD this year.

f2k
06-09-2012, 11:33
Yes, you might think you need one. But guess what? You’re not getting it ‘cause you just blew all your money last week...

The problem with the impulse-buy argument is that Games Workshop products are now so far out of impulse-buy range that it just won’t happen. How’s little Timmy supposed to just put down £70 for that ultra-cool and brand new Dreadfleet game that the store manager is pushing on him? Okay, so that might be a somewhat extreme example. But we might as well look at the cost of a Warhammer regiment, a single 40K tank, a monstrous creature or any other box set. The problem is still there – they’re way too expensive to be considered an impulse-buy for the target demographic.

As for what their data says... They’ve made so many blunders over the last decade or so that I honestly don’t think they care anymore. They see what they want to see, not what’s really happening...

xxRavenxx
06-09-2012, 23:54
The problem with the impulse-buy argument is that Games Workshop products are now so far out of impulse-buy range that it just won’t happen. How’s little Timmy supposed to just put down £70 for that ultra-cool and brand new Dreadfleet game that the store manager is pushing on him? Okay, so that might be a somewhat extreme example. But we might as well look at the cost of a Warhammer regiment, a single 40K tank, a monstrous creature or any other box set. The problem is still there – they’re way too expensive to be considered an impulse-buy for the target demographic.

I don't know. If I had a kid, £70 wouldn't be out of my impulse purchase on his behalf. (Yeah, this is super hypothetical...) I'd obviously not splash out on it every week, but if he asked for a dreadfleet, me and his mother, Katrina Bowden, (Its my hypothetical situation, I get to pick my imaginary wife... >.> ) would likely grab it and put it away for birthday or christmas.

Never forget that GWs true target audience is the PARENTS of middleclass 11-16 year olds... :)

Omniassiah
06-09-2012, 23:56
While a number of people can only save for one product and then can't afford something else until they save again, there are the people who will get caught up in the "moment" and impulse buy a product. Now if the leaks are out 6 weeks before the product (X) comes up for pre-order you get all excited and want to buy said item. Then by the time it comes up for pre-order some other new toy has reared its shiny head (Y) and you think well did I really want (X) or should I just wait for (Y). Where as based on the current system the idea should be that you see (X) as it comes up for pre-order and in you excitement pre order this. Then once this toy has been released for a week (Y) gets its first glimpse and is available to order and you think wow need to have one of those.

Not saying it works all of the time but you can see why they do it. Presumably their internal data will support this otherwise they would either change tack or modify the process slightly once hey have enough data to see either way. It will be interesting to see if anything is show cased at UK GD this year.

First problem is that 2 things have to be released in a row and that someone would care about both. Considering GW normally alternates between fantasy and 40k (soon LotR as well) it means that you have to pick 2 out of ~24 forces that just happen to coincide with a back to back release schedule for that to matter. Realistically I would be surprised to find that many people have more then 2 armies in any one GW system barring maybe Space Marines and there ability to be used in 5 lists. Even with that I know that of those that I do know that fit in that category and above not a single one is under the age of 18 maybe even 24. So GW is really afraid of losing sales to people that aren't interested in the specific product they are offering. For example try to offer me Necrons, you can state the virtues of their total awesomeness to me till you die from lack of oxygen and I still won't be handing over any cash for them.


I don't know. If I had a kid, £70 wouldn't be out of my impulse purchase on his behalf. (Yeah, this is super hypothetical...) I'd obviously not splash out on it every week, but if he asked for a dreadfleet, me and his mother, Katrina Bowden, (Its my hypothetical situation, I get to pick my imaginary wife... >.> ) would likely grab it and put it away for birthday or christmas.

Never forget that GWs true target audience is the PARENTS of middleclass 11-16 year olds... :)

Christmas and maybe birthday would be about it. That said unless either of those 2 are coming in the extremely near future it wouldn't exactly be a impulse purchase. Normally in the US the impulse limit is around $30 or £20. Anything over that and they tend to be more planned purchases.

f2k
07-09-2012, 07:26
I don't know. If I had a kid, £70 wouldn't be out of my impulse purchase on his behalf. (Yeah, this is super hypothetical...) I'd obviously not splash out on it every week, but if he asked for a dreadfleet, me and his mother, Katrina Bowden, (Its my hypothetical situation, I get to pick my imaginary wife... >.> ) would likely grab it and put it away for birthday or christmas.

Never forget that GWs true target audience is the PARENTS of middleclass 11-16 year olds... :)

True.

Now, this is just my personal experience... But from what I've seen, parents aren't splashing out that kind of money either. Indeed, for that price I could walk into a Gamestop store and get a used Xbox360 or PS3. And, again in my experience, that's what's happening.

Had I a kit, I would consider that kind of money to be way over the top, even for a birthday or christmas present. Just too much money asked for a few grams of plastic. And just WAY too much money for a impulse-buy.

AlexHolker
07-09-2012, 09:12
I don't know. If I had a kid, £70 wouldn't be out of my impulse purchase on his behalf. (Yeah, this is super hypothetical...) I'd obviously not splash out on it every week, but if he asked for a dreadfleet, me and his mother, Katrina Bowden, (Its my hypothetical situation, I get to pick my imaginary wife... >.> ) would likely grab it and put it away for birthday or christmas.
A predictable, twice a year purchase is not an impulse buy.

violenceha
07-09-2012, 09:24
A predictable, twice a year purchase is not an impulse buy.
He posts in a hypothetical, imaginary way:rolleyes::D

Mastodon
07-09-2012, 11:22
First problem is that 2 things have to be released in a row and that someone would care about both. Considering GW normally alternates between fantasy and 40k (soon LotR as well) it means that you have to pick 2 out of ~24 forces that just happen to coincide with a back to back release schedule for that to matter. Realistically I would be surprised to find that many people have more then 2 armies in any one GW system barring maybe Space Marines and there ability to be used in 5 lists. Even with that I know that of those that I do know that fit in that category and above not a single one is under the age of 18 maybe even 24. So GW is really afraid of losing sales to people that aren't interested in the specific product they are offering. For example try to offer me Necrons, you can state the virtues of their total awesomeness to me till you die from lack of oxygen and I still won't be handing over any cash for them.



Christmas and maybe birthday would be about it. That said unless either of those 2 are coming in the extremely near future it wouldn't exactly be a impulse purchase. Normally in the US the impulse limit is around $30 or £20. Anything over that and they tend to be more planned purchases.

Rubbish. I've had parents throw £60 to £100 down just because their kids asked for it. Bumping two boxes up into an army set or battleforce if its GW products happens very often.

Just because you wouldnt spend that much on an impulse, doesnt mean no-one else will.

The amount of parents that bought the limited edition Dark Vengeance box and told me they were putting it away till christmas was very high too. Especially when they'll be back to buy more stuff in november/december.

6mmhero
07-09-2012, 12:28
First problem is that 2 things have to be released in a row and that someone would care about both. Considering GW normally alternates between fantasy and 40k (soon LotR as well) it means that you have to pick 2 out of ~24 forces that just happen to coincide with a back to back release schedule for that to matter. Realistically I would be surprised to find that many people have more then 2 armies in any one GW system barring maybe Space Marines and there ability to be used in 5 lists. Even with that I know that of those that I do know that fit in that category and above not a single one is under the age of 18 maybe even 24. So GW is really afraid of losing sales to people that aren't interested in the specific product they are offering. For example try to offer me Necrons, you can state the virtues of their total awesomeness to me till you die from lack of oxygen and I still won't be handing over any cash for them.

Well like I said, this is how GW view their release system. They want you to be excited by every release as it goes up for pre order not waiting for Chaos Squats that you have heard might be released in 20 years time. You might like to save you hard earned up for that release in case something is limited, but GW do not want you doing that or more to the point they are aiming at people who do get excited when a preorder goes up and the sort of people who will impulse buy everything they like the look of or feel they have to have.
You would be surprised by how many people have more than two armies for a system.

F2K

Having worked in a GW (for over four years) there are plenty of parents and adults that are happy to pay the prices for the latest release and then a few weeks later come in for the next release and to add something to their other forces. Some of these people (parents included) would go out and splash money on a Xbox at the same time just because Little Timmy wanted one.

Either way I am not going to argue the virtues of this policy I was only trying to point out why they are doing it. People may not agree with it and their experiences might show it to not be a good policy for them but that is what GW are doing and while you might think they like to ignore stats they are more than likely paying close attention to them.

paddyalexander
07-09-2012, 13:55
Rubbish. I've had parents throw £60 to £100 down just because their kids asked for it. Bumping two boxes up into an army set or battleforce if its GW products happens very often.

This can be seen as something similar to an addittional impulse buy. Instead of buying an addittional product for €10-€20 they instead increase the value of what they are spending. So instead of two €30 box sets they'll buy an €80 battleforce instead. But that is simply adding to a planned purchase.

True impulse items are ones that a custumer had no plans of buying but picks up anyway, in addittion to any planned purchase made. In retail these items are usually kept at or close the checkout areas. In grocery these are things like sweets, batteries and seasonal items like valintines cards/mothers day cards etc. and associated products. HMV keeps cheep DVDs and games at their checkout areas, usually priced €10 or less.

A €30 plus product is not an impulse item, let alone one in the €70 plus range. Paints, glues and brushes are. Most of gwPLCs' model range, including most of their blisters aren't.

A christmass or birthday purchase are not impulse buys either.