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Bergen Beerbelly
19-08-2012, 02:08
Hi everyone.

I'm just kind of curious what people think doesn't make any sense in their codex.

As an example:

No Eldar tank has an armour value over 12 on any facing. When I asked some long time Eldar players why, they said because Eldar know that Lance weaponry reduces your armour to 12 anyway so why bother putting more armour on the tank when Lances will just make a mockery of it.

The thing that gets me is Eldar are the ones with tons of Lance weaponry. And they KNOW from fighting the other races that Lance weaponry is few and far between when it comes to the other races except, surprise surprise...Dark..wait for it...Eldar.

So why wouldn't they put heavier armour on their tanks when most races don't have tons of lance weapons?

It doesn't make any sense...

So what are your "doesn't make sense " things in your codex?

unknown_lifeform
19-08-2012, 02:18
Eldar favour speed and precise application of force and prefer misdirection and evasion to brute armour which slows them down. Their vehicles may be lightly armoured but they are also fast. They are supposed to rely on their speed and technological defences (such as holo fields) for protection, not crude and cumbersome armour. Eldar tanks have more in common with modern apache helecopters than main battle tanks. In terms of their fluff and style it actually makes a lot of sense. Its the Eldar's preference of finesse over raw power that also explains why they use lance weaponry - rather than go for brute force they use their superior technology to negate the enemies defences.

zoggin-eck
19-08-2012, 02:34
unknown_lifeform already answerd you for me.



No Eldar tank has an armour value over 12 on any facing. When I asked some long time Eldar players why, they said because Eldar know that Lance weaponry reduces your armour to 12 anyway so why bother putting more armour on the tank when Lances will just make a mockery of it.

Wait, so the Eldar are well aware that they are in a tabletop game with stsats such as armour 12 and rules for lance weaponry?

Don't confuse game mechanics for actual background, or games designers intentionally making the armies look and play differently for "not making sense"

Adyger
19-08-2012, 02:40
I don't have the exact wording in front of me...but I don't think the death mark snipers from Necrons rule makes sense...the one where they are allowed to arrive from deep strike on you opponents turn...and do nothing! What is the point of that rule? I thought something in 6th would address it, but haven't found anything yet...when looking at the special rules, I thought myabe they'd gain that interceptor rule, so when you opponent has something arrive from reserve, they "pop out" thanks to their special rule, and then get to shoot (thanks to the interceptor rule), but they don't have anthing like that...it makes no sense to me.

unknown_lifeform
19-08-2012, 03:08
Yeah, the deathmark sniper teleport rule belongs in the same group of special rules as the lictor pheromone trail and the trygon tunnel. The designers obviously wanted to create a fun and characterful special rule and neglected to make it in any way actually useful...

@OP: if you want some stuff about the eldar that actually doesn't make sense, why does one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy have no access to night vision equipment? And why do they put their civilians on the front lines armed with the worst basic weapon in the entire galaxy? (actually, I quite like the idea of the eldar going for sub machine guns, its just never been implemented very well. Like a large proportion of their weaponry.)

agurus1
19-08-2012, 03:11
Someone tried telling me that lumbering behemoth for Leman Russ tanks now means that I have to snap fire my other weapons if I fire an ordnance turret weapon. If this is true it makes no sense lol

OgreBattle
19-08-2012, 03:42
So what are your "doesn't make sense " things in your codex?
CWE: entire existance of Guardians.

ORKS: 'eavy armor is more rare than mega-armor!
boy: "oi boss we'z got all dis skrap 'round n' da mekboyz kan makes us all 'ard wiff it"
boss: "naw, we'z can only make 'eavy armor enuff fer 1 squad o boyz. btw yooz got two bosses so we's gonna have five squads of meganobz"
boy: "...dat don't make sense"
boss: "we'z orks, we dont got to make cents"

(Cross Codex) ORKS n' CRAFTWORLD ELDAR: shootas are superior to shuriken. Orks build longer ranged weapons.

Shoota boy looting eldar battlefield: "'ey I gots me one of dem shrieken kattypults!"
Mek: "Put dat away. it's gotz no riflin' so der perjectyles akkyracy drops dramatik like in ranges beyond short so gettin in effektiv range will expose yoo to unecessary danger. Dem cone 'eads kant make a propa gun."

Vyper gunner: "Man, if I could put two big shootas on my vehicle, we could use our mobility to fly away from incoming fire, while still having the range to light up some marines"
Vyper Pilot: "But that is not the 'proper way' of war. I am suppose to steer our highly mobile jetcraft into pistol range to fire my catapults."
Venom Pilot: "nyeheheh..."

Biker looting guardian jetbike: "wow, deez kattypults are like da worst gun yooz can put on a bike"
Biker 2: "deyz an unsoffystikated, simple race."

Dire Avenger looting ork battlefield: "What if... we started using shootas instead of this short ranged crap??"
Exarch: "... just put some gubbinz on it to make it look like a catapult, so the guardians don't get jealous"

Dark Reaper looting ork battlefield: "Man, I wish I had a rokkit..."
Exarch: "I always wondered why Maugan Ra taught me to use this big heavy rocket launcher... when he moves and shoots with a shuriken cannon..."

WRAITHSIGHT: FALLING ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL
Mek: "Da rayflord's a big smashy git, but typikal sloppy eldar enjineerin', deyz can't build a dread as propa reliable as orkses"
Warhammer Fantasy has a similar rule, it's called 'stupidity'


CRAFTWORLD VS DE CODEX

Kabalite: "We are cutthroat traitorous raiders who have no reguard for our lives or others!"
Guardian: "We are a dying race with hyper advanced technology!"
Kabalite: "We arm ourselves with long ranged weapons, our haemonculi make us tougher than orks and if I fall in battle my comrades bring a piece of my soul back so I may be saved from the predations of slaanesh and live once more!"
Guardian: "We shoot as far as a space marine can catch us with a powerfist, our warlocks herd us to the front lines (every single warlock power involves either getting stuck in', or drawing fire, or making sure you die to a man) and our reward after our inevitable violent death in battle is having our soul eternally trapped in a stone, or put in an unfeeling battle-coffin."
Kabalite: "...wow, that's mean."


DARK ELDAR HELLIONS
Hellions: Teenage street gangsters who might get recruited into Kabals and become 'made men' (Warriors!)
BUT, HELLIONS ARE WAY BETTER ARMED/ARMORED THAN WARRIORS!
They have superior initiative, they have a fancy melee assault weapon and fancy shooting weapons. They ride around on skyboards. They use drugs!
Somehow becoming a Kabalite means grabbin' worse guns, stopping the use of drugs, and becoming cannonfodder.






Wait, so the Eldar are well aware that they are in a tabletop game with stsats such as armour 12 and rules for lance weaponry?
Black Templars: BLESSED HULL
Do BT's have lance weapons? NO
Are BT's strictly aware: "HEY IF I POUR OIL ON THE LANDRAIDER IT MAKES ELF LASERS BOUNCE OFF" who knows.
But they do, and they rub down the oil whenever elf lasers are spotted.

Damocles8
19-08-2012, 03:57
SM: So there's this wonderful flyer out there, that we can't use....but Blood Angels and Grey Knights can.....yet we have this gunship that follows similar design characteristics....
IG: it seems our Hydras have forgotten how to shoot at ground targets in the last couple of months; the Grav Chute insertion works the same as the Skies of Blood special rule for BA before an FAQ, now they're completely different.
GK: See Skies of Blood/Grav Chute Insertion
Tau: Our units inexplicably can't target two units with an upgrade anymore....

@Augurus: whoever told you that is wrong, the turret is ignored like normal.

Drasanil
19-08-2012, 04:08
Eldar and personal armour: "There's not many of us, we value all eldar lives and we have a lot of tech... so he's some cardboard go get 'em champ!" Really you'd think DE Ghostplate would be standard issue across the board and get better from there with aspects/trueborn having 3+/5++ and exarchs/Autarchs/Archons etc tc 2+/4++.

That and stormshields... both eldar and orks are supposed to have much better forcefield tech than the Imperium, yet the Imperium can spam 3++ like no tomorrow.

Not to mention eldar guns... well actually most eldar stuff doesn't make sense, their tech is supposed to second only to Necrons and falls short compared to just about everything the Imperium puts out.

Charistoph
19-08-2012, 04:16
Eldar were designed to fight Necrons. Armor only does so much against them, so piling it on and sacrficing speed is pointless. The Craftworld Eldar put armor on when they started fighting some one besides robots. Remember, the Dark Eldar are the old schoolers in this story, with the Craftworld and Exodites the exiles.

Chosen are supposedly the baddest of the bad in Chaos Marines, but an Aspiring Champion is better in combat they are?

Spawn. Do I really have to say much more? 6th Edition made them better than they used to be, but without a save, they still suck for their price.

Possessed. Their price for some random rules, 1 of which you can't take full advantage of. Especially for a new kit.

Marine Icons. Bob drops the stick and now everyone is no longer blessed... :wtf:

Kroot Shapers. 3 Wounds at T3, 0-6+ AS, and no other bonuses, for that cost.

Krootox. A model that makes IG Heavy Weapon Teams seem useful and smart.

Ethereal. A model you pay points for with no defense, that makes your army run when he dies, or makes them marginally better in Assault (at the time the codex was written) in an race that eschews Assault.

Tau Pathfinders. A unit that does its best work in cover, and you have to give them an enclosed chopper...

Perth
19-08-2012, 05:21
Belial's Sword of Silence, a relic of incredible value to the whole Dark Angels chapter, constantly tossed away in favor of a stock Thunder Hammer.

A Space Marine Scout, with dozens of years of training and bio-modifications, shoots noticeably worse than every Guardsman lucky enough to survive a campaign, and that those same guardsmen shoot just as well as a Space Marine Sternguard squad.

That 10 power armored Space Marines actually fit into a Rhino.

Eldar Guardians.

A wounded Calgar catches The Wailing Doom like someone swung a baseball bat at an action hero, then beats the tar out of an Avatar and scares away an entire Eldar Warhost.

Tau Air Defense Missile Platform, doesn't get skyfire.

Every Grey Knight Librarian ever is a stronger psyker than Eldrad.

Bergen Beerbelly
19-08-2012, 06:02
At the few people who actually tried to answer my question...yes, I know the real answer as to why they use armor 12. It's because the game designers made it their schtick to sacrifice armour for speed. It does make sense from a game designer standpoint if that is what they are going for. But it doesn't make sense from a military vehicle designers stand point in game. They know how much force it takes to punch armour, just like we do in real life. So they know how much armour to put on their tanks. They also have the tech level to go whatever speed they want regardless of armour. So it doesn't make fluff sense at all. So I just wanted to hear what other things there are in other peoples codex.

Anyway, thanks everyone for posting.

insectum7
19-08-2012, 06:15
A wounded Calgar catches The Wailing Doom like someone swung a baseball bat at an action hero, then beats the tar out of an Avatar and scares away an entire Eldar Warhost.


Oh no you didn't!


Why does the Terminator Sergeant come with a weapon worse than his squad members, and why can't he upgrade it?

zoggin-eck
19-08-2012, 06:16
Black Templars: BLESSED HULL
Do BT's have lance weapons? NO
Are BT's strictly aware: "HEY IF I POUR OIL ON THE LANDRAIDER IT MAKES ELF LASERS BOUNCE OFF" who knows.
But they do, and they rub down the oil whenever elf lasers are spotted.

Err, I'm not sure what this has to do with the text of mine you quoted? What you've written may not be ion a codex, but it certainly does not make sense.

IcedAnimals
19-08-2012, 07:45
My codex is a white dwarf codex that can't be bought from GW anymore. In the words of Early Cuyler. That is jibbery-style oinkery what make no sense a 'tall.

While im at it. Don't forget uncorruptable grey knights murdering women and children to protect themselves from..corruption.

Fithos
19-08-2012, 08:21
The thing that has always made the least sense to me is why did the Tau name one of their primary castes after the human home world? Earth Caste?

Toadius80
19-08-2012, 08:45
1: Having dead guys in codex's. Never understood that one.
Ok so there's the Eldrad dead guy then there's the example of the gold, pre death co that's pre dead Tycho in a force with High Chaplain Astorath. 2 guys from completely different eras (remember that it was Lematis, again at the time pre death co nutjob and at time high chaplain, who got the black spray out on Tycho)
Or, now thinking about it, maybe more comical, Gold Tycho and Lemartis, the guy that packed Tycho to death co but there already himself?
2: Vet marines being no better at there jobs than regular guys yet guard vets etc are significantly better then there normal bods.
3: space wolf specials being a bit lame compared to other marine equivalents.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Sexiest_hero
19-08-2012, 09:31
Salamanders having their race ret-conned. WHY!

Toadius80
19-08-2012, 09:33
And them all suddenly jet black skinned!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Athlan na Dyr
19-08-2012, 09:42
Ok so there's the Eldrad dead guy...

Eldrad isn't dead, more on 'an extended holiday' (i hope).

Well, the obvious ones:
> Guardians
> Assault Cannons being Heavy type and Heavy Flamers being Assault type.

And others:
> Eldar tanks being lightly armoured to be as mobile as they are. I wonder what the Falcon pilot thinks when they see a valkyrie/vendetta/Stormraven fly past...
> Planes with armour heavier than ground vehicles swooping about (seriously, is it magnets or what?)
> Witchblades vs. Flak Jackets compared to Witchblades vs. a Chimera Hull
> Guilliman's Guide to Defending a Galactic Empire specifically making it so that the Space Marines cannot take a decently defended planet by themselves, yet all the Space Marines seem to do is defeat forces that can/ do it themselves/ take a planet equivalent (in the form of a craftworld.)
> Necrons using the Webway as their primary mode of transport. Yet the Webway is tangled and breached in many places. Yet the Webway has openings to Daemon Worlds. Yet the Webway actively tries to destroy their access point and the invaders. Yet the Necrons are able to pass between Tomb Worlds relatively frequently. Yet Anrakr the Traveller and Trazyn the infinite are able to go here, there and every flipping where (especially the later), despite the masters of the Webway (the Eldar and Dark Eldar) not being able to.... Seriously, FTL travel FTW.

I'm sure I'll think of others later, but those for the moment

Spiney Norman
19-08-2012, 09:47
I don't have the exact wording in front of me...but I don't think the death mark snipers from Necrons rule makes sense...the one where they are allowed to arrive from deep strike on you opponents turn...and do nothing! What is the point of that rule? I thought something in 6th would address it, but haven't found anything yet...when looking at the special rules, I thought myabe they'd gain that interceptor rule, so when you opponent has something arrive from reserve, they "pop out" thanks to their special rule, and then get to shoot (thanks to the interceptor rule), but they don't have anthing like that...it makes no sense to me.

Wait, so automatically being allowed to DS before your second turn without having to pass a reserve roll, enabling you to move normally on your second turn doesn't sound like an advantage to you? Ok it's not a game breaking advantage, but it's far from pointless.

I do it all the time with lych guard in my Nemesor list (Nemesor basically gives all DSing units that rule) and my opponents hate it because I can teleport my units in early and get into assault straight away.

The only really pointless thing in the Necron codex is the Phaeron upgrade because there is now no advantage to giving any Necron unit relentless, but that is entirely down to the change to rapid fire weapons in 6th edition, so we'll let them off.

With regard to my other codexes, the battle sister command squad is fairly pointless (and by extension the Canoness that unlocks it) because there doesn't seem to be a way to equip it properly for any battlefield role.

Still Standing
19-08-2012, 10:19
A Space Marine Scout, with dozens of years of training and bio-modifications, shoots noticeably worse than every Guardsman lucky enough to survive a campaign, and that those same guardsmen shoot just as well as a Space Marine Sternguard squad.

put that down to the weapons they are using. Guardsmen are firing a pinpoint accuracy laser, which likely has no kick and no lead time. Literally hits what you point at. Marines are firing mini rocket launchers. The lead time is going to be immense, and the accuracy appalling.

Not-not-kenny
19-08-2012, 10:30
SKYrays without skyfire and SNIPER drones without sniper.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-08-2012, 10:31
Pretty much the entire rules content of the Elder codex. There is something bizarre in almost every entry in there.

nosebiter
19-08-2012, 10:36
put that down to the weapons they are using. Guardsmen are firing a pinpoint accuracy laser, which likely has no kick and no lead time. Literally hits what you point at. Marines are firing mini rocket launchers. The lead time is going to be immense, and the accuracy appalling.

His strenght, armor and any targetting stuff in his helmet makes up for that. And the scout has a sniper rifle!!

zoggin-eck
19-08-2012, 10:46
put that down to the weapons they are using. Guardsmen are firing a pinpoint accuracy laser, which likely has no kick and no lead time. Literally hits what you point at. Marines are firing mini rocket launchers. The lead time is going to be immense, and the accuracy appalling.

Lasbolts aren't really portrayed as being pinpoint accurate anyway.

OgreBattle
19-08-2012, 10:47
At the few people who actually tried to answer my question...yes, I know the real answer as to why they use armor 12. It's because the game designers made it their schtick to sacrifice armour for speed.

It's not even consistent.
The wraithlord is a big slow monster that smashes things. The dread knight swiftly teleports around the battlefield.

Eldar Jetbikes are more heavily armored (3+) than space marine bikes (no armor bonus) and much faster

If you point a plasma gun at Fuegan he will walk straight at you and shrug off the hit like the Terminator, while a space marine like Ragnar uses incredible agility to gracefully dodge plasma.

Eldar with rocket launchers are immobile dudes who sit and shoot, while orks with rocket launchers are move n' shoot with assault weapons.



!!
Thought of another new absurdity,
Standing next to a big artillery gun platform (t7 w2 3+ artillery platform now) makes you way tougher than climbing into an armored shell carrying that weapon (av10)

Fear Ghoul
19-08-2012, 11:02
Blood Angels Codex:

Astorath executes the Death Company who survive battle in every Blood Angels successor Chapter how exactly?

Death Company are a dedicated assault unit yet they lost Rending and gained Relentless which makes them better at shooting.

Dante doesn't have Eternal Warrior but Calgar ad Grimnar have the rule, despite being older and more infamous than either of them.

Psychic Furioso with Wings of Sanguinius.

Librarians who succumb to the Black Rage are executed for the safety of their brother Marines, so why did they make an exception for Mephiston/Calistarius?

I believe someone else mentioned the retardation of having BS3 Scouts with several campaigns of experience vs BS4 Guard Veterans.

Veterans in general are only better (sometimes) at shooting than Tactical Marines because of their wargear and not due to their greater experience.

Other Codices/Rulebook:

Lance weapons compromise the effectiveness of heavy armour but have no similar ability against any other armour type.

Chainswords have no AP value despite quite obviously being able to tear through flak jackets in the background.

Poison is equally effective against everything that can be poisoned.

Snap shots unfairly penalizes low volume high quality shooting.

Extra armour doesn't actually increase the AV value or hull points.

Hive Guard don't require LOS unlike every other missile launcher in the galaxy.

Tervigons can produce far more Termagants than looks feasible based on their model.

The Imperial Guard have mastered the secret art of giving orders to their troops as other armies keep wondering why seemingly average Guardsmen can outmove and outshoot them.

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 11:15
I don't have the exact wording in front of me...but I don't think the death mark snipers from Necrons rule makes sense...the one where they are allowed to arrive from deep strike on you opponents turn...and do nothing! What is the point of that rule?
Arrival from Reserves without having to roll for them.



And them all suddenly jet black skinned!
As they were originally. Their appearance(s) in Codex: Armageddon were the retcon here.

spaghettyhoop
19-08-2012, 11:18
Hive Guard don't require LOS unlike every other missile launcher in the galaxy

I can answer that one, the "missiles" they fire are alive and fly themselves like mini kamakazi dudes, they dont point the gun at the enemy and fire. I know other tyranid ammo is alive too (fleshborers, etc) but the impaler cannon specifically states in its background that its ammo simply flies itself at the enemy. If it makes you feel better too, Hive guard dont even have eyes!!!

A.T.
19-08-2012, 11:20
So what are your "doesn't make sense " things in your codex?Templars with rage and a general acceptance of eldar allies. They are witch hating crusaders, not mouth-foamers...

Half the prices in the SoB codex, many of which don't correlate to other current units - notably the priest which was copy/pasted from another of Cruddace's books and he still managed to get it wrong. Also inquisitor of the ordo hereticus (include the old WH character Karamazov) being unable to lead their own adopted militant forces and the complete lack of any psychic protection in a force who's primary roles include the hunting/capture of psykers.

The celestians deserve special mention as a close combat focussed unit with no additional close combat weapons, and also the general scaling of the core faith mechanic (there isn't any) and the complete lack of zealots/frateris in a codex where the majority of HQs are priesthood.
Final shout-out goes to forgeworld for advertising their one SoB unit in the codex telling players to check the site for an update that doesn't exist (they've actually taken the 5th edition update down making it almost entirely unusable).

trigger
19-08-2012, 11:38
"hi I'm a techmarine for (insert chapter here) I fix and maintain all the company's vehicles , I will mostly be seen in amongst a mechanised force RUNNING up and down the battle field because some idiot forgot to pencil me in my own pissing transport !!!! , just how did this guy become chapter master in the first place !"

A.T.
19-08-2012, 11:50
"hi I'm a techmarine for (insert chapter here) I fix and maintain all the company's vehicles , I will mostly be seen in amongst a mechanised force RUNNING up and down the battle field because some idiot forgot to pencil me in my own pissing transport !!!!That was actually a 5th edition change - all of the 4th edition books have transport options. Kind of an odd change actually.

Still Standing
19-08-2012, 12:00
His strenght, armor and any targetting stuff in his helmet makes up for that. And the scout has a sniper rifle!!

None of the stuff in his arour would make up for inaccuracies in the ammunition.

Mr Zoat
19-08-2012, 12:00
Techmarines being able to upgun only two Servitors per squad. Same for Inquisitors (3) and Enginseers. Those same task dedicated servitors not receiving altered stats to represent their specialty.
Masters of the Forge only being able to take one piece of technologically advanced wargear; the conversion beamer. Big Meks get more than that. They can't even have a Signum!
The cost of units and upgrades in Codex: Grey Knights.

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 12:01
That was actually a 5th edition change - all of the 4th edition books have transport options. Kind of an odd change actually.
The Techmarine probably doesn't mind too much - he has more to worry about not being able to approach vehicles unless he's got some friends along for moral support.


The Techmarine is an Independant Character, so can't end the movement phase within 2" of a unit he can't join - a vehicle, for instance!

Threeshades
19-08-2012, 12:17
The thing that has always made the least sense to me is why did the Tau name one of their primary castes after the human home world? Earth Caste?

Yeah, they should have rather called them dirtcaste. That sounds so much more dignified.

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 12:20
Is 'Earth Caste' not a human/gothic translation from the Tau?

Since, y'know, Tau don't speak English...


EDIT: Yes. According to the 3rd ed. Codex: Tau, 'Earth' is simply the 'best translation' for Fio.

Haravikk
19-08-2012, 12:21
Pretty much everything in the Grey Knights codex; anyone else remember when they were just elite strike teams and not cartoon bad-guys with psi in front of everything they have that "is plain just better™"?

Why Uriah Jacobus is not only mysteriously no longer dead, but also turns any squad into rampaging combat specialists and is the only way to get more out of Acts of Faith, despite being an Ecclesiarchy missionary whose primary characteristics are meant to be stealth, surveillance and guile?


Regarding the Eldar armour values; if Eldar are so advanced, you'd think they could make light armour that's stronger than other races, resulting in better armour without sacrificing manoeuvrability. Especially when Tau vehicles aren't exactly slouches either.

inq.serge
19-08-2012, 12:45
GK techmarines being psykers.

Admech dislike psykers.

Psykers can't have bionics (Well they can, but it gives them psykic instabilities, with less control and higher risk for Perils of the Warp. (For those who do not know, Psyker powers are not based in, and controlled by, their brains, but their entire bodies and every cell in it. Removing some, especially big chunks like a limb, causes imbalances. ))

CrownAxe
19-08-2012, 13:05
I find it stupid that Chaos Daemons don't have any psychic defense.

They are entities of the warp. Their mere presence should be able to disrupt psykers. It even says in their codex that all their demonic gifts are classified as shooting weapons and special effects instead of being psychic powers because they're from the warp (which explains why they have no psykers).

But nothing is there to stop them. Almost every army gets some wargear or unit with a special rule that makes a psyker chance of success worse but not Daemons. The only thing we have is Khorne's Blessing of the Blood God buts it not even good and is only useful against force weapons really.

Frankly with the deny the witch roll, Daemons should pass it on 5+instead of 6+ just for being daemons.

A.T.
19-08-2012, 13:11
...despite being an Ecclesiarchy missionary whose primary characteristics are meant to be stealth, surveillance and guile?That one actually makes sense, Jacobus is best known for leading a feudal-era popualtion against a genestealer infestation and is basically a foaming wide-eyed hobo with a shotgun.

The original banner of sanctity was fantastic for big units rolling lots of dice - easy criticals and no fumbles.



The only thing we have is Khorne's Blessing of the Blood God buts it not even good...It's a 2+ save that you get in addition to deny the witch - that's pretty damn good.

Xerkics
19-08-2012, 13:11
Not giving NEcron wraiths a dedicated assault unit any close combat weapons and then giving an option to buy one without a benefit of gaining extra attack.

The fact that Draigo exists.

Tyranids not having learned that they better evolve biomorph for frag grenades or some other means of charging into cover at initiative. Not bother using all this extra biomass to make hyperfast assault bioforms that always go last.

frogboy
19-08-2012, 13:15
Khorne Berserkers, for the points cost of a 10 man squad you could just get 10 regular CSM's with an Icon of khorne and have the same amount of attacks plus have better weapons for shooting stuff

Chaos Space Marines live in the Eye of TERROR, but are scared of monstrous creatures etc...

After 10,000 years of CSM's fighting the Imperial Bureaucrats SM's etc they haven't come up with a peaceful solution, they must really "hate" them Loyal Space Marines right !?? oh wait no they don't.

The only gift of the gods Aspiring Champions get these days is a Greater Daemon exploding out of their ****...

Chaos Dreadnoughts

CSM Author

TheBearminator
19-08-2012, 13:32
Vox casters. They're described as some miracle of technology. In reality they're walkie-talkies the size caravans with a range of 18 meters.

Zenithfleet
19-08-2012, 14:26
Lots of painfully accurate points about the nonsensical nature of Eldar

I'd just like to be a grumpy old(ish) fart here and point out that Eldar made a lot more sense in 2nd edition. Possibly too much sense, going by the number of GW staff members in White Dwarf urging players not to use too many overpowered Exarchs.

Swooping Hawks worked. In various nasty ways. And shuriken catapults could slice through power armour like nobody's business - they had a 24" range, a -2 save modifier and a sustained fire die each (making them better than storm bolters of the same era, if you don't count the Rapid Fire ability that Marines had for using bolt weapons). The top tournament players adored jetbikes. And Warp Spiders were by all reports effin' terrifying.

3rd edition was when half the army suddenly stopped making sense... :eyebrows: F'rinstance, the OP's mention of 'Eldar not making armour better than 12 because their bright lance weapons would negate it' actually comes from the 3rd ed Eldar Codex designer's notes in White Dwarf (by Gav Thorpe). He gave this as his reason for the low armour on the Eldar tanks. I remember thinking it was a bit iffy at the time, but hey, he was an illustrious game designer and I was fifteen, clearly he knew better... :shifty:

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 15:26
Khorne Berserkers, for the points cost of a 10 man squad you could just get 10 regular CSM's with an Icon of khorne and have the same amount of attacks plus have better weapons for shooting stuff
But are minus one point of WS, Fearless, and can loose their Mark.

Seems pretty balanced.

A.T.
19-08-2012, 15:26
He gave this as his reason for the low armour on the Eldar tanks.To be fair the old eldar tanks were pretty much indestructible anyway - glancing hits only, two rolls on the damage chart picking the lowest and ignoring most of the results. Even monoliths were easier to wreck.

unknown_lifeform
19-08-2012, 15:28
I'd just like to be a grumpy old(ish) fart here and point out that Eldar made a lot more sense in 2nd edition. Possibly too much sense, going by the number of GW staff members in White Dwarf urging players not to use too many overpowered Exarchs.


Agreed, the Eldar (and especially their technology) hasn't made much sense in game terms since 3rd edition. The 4th ed codex was a huge disappointment because it just updated what had gone before and addressed none of the fundamental issues. I live in hope that when eldar finally do get their 6th ed codex the designers will have had a sit down and really thought about how they want to reflect the eldar's background in their rules.

Chem-Dog
19-08-2012, 17:15
GK techmarines being psykers.

Admech dislike psykers.

Psykers can't have bionics (Well they can, but it gives them psykic instabilities, with less control and higher risk for Perils of the Warp. (For those who do not know, Psyker powers are not based in, and controlled by, their brains, but their entire bodies and every cell in it. Removing some, especially big chunks like a limb, causes imbalances. ))


Far as I was concerned the Admech have no specific disdain for Psykers. They even have their own machine-empaths. What's more the fluff tends to show Psykers associated with the Martian Mechanicum/Adeptus Mechanicus (astropaths and the like) as being heavily augmented and yet they seem to suffer no negative impact.
Thinking about it, it's safe to assume that the Adeptus Mechanicus have a pretty good mastery of all things psychic, they are the pre-eminent fabrication outlet of the Imperium and all the psychic hoods, force weapons, null field generators and other devices that channel, focus or block psychic energy have to come from somewhere. Probably a good bet a lot of the Imperium's psyker gear is stamped with the Cog Mechanicum.


After 10,000 years of CSM's fighting the Imperial Bureaucrats SM's etc they haven't come up with a peaceful solution, they must really "hate" them Loyal Space Marines right !?? oh wait no they don't.

Rumour is, that's about to change. :)

Grimdesign
19-08-2012, 17:30
Ever-Living, just the writing behind it is so....

Khorneguy
19-08-2012, 18:01
chaos icons: guys who've dedicated their lives to a god, lose the benefits ten thousand years of their patronage if bob the icon bearer dies - think about it, in fluff terms that's khornate marines suddenly calming down, slanneshi marines suddenly losing the combat drugs pumping through their system and the speed born of an endless pursuit of perfection and nurgles diseases suddenly healing up, leaving them as tough as normal marines. it only makes sense with tzeentch marines, as the changer of way likes to d*ck over his own followers on a whim.

A.T.
19-08-2012, 18:07
chaos icons: guys who've dedicated their lives to a god, lose the benefits ten thousand years of their patronage if bob the icon bearer diesA man who loses the king's colours loses the king's friendship :p

Same as any banner unit in the game, though it's a shame that (against shooting attacks at least) someone else can't just pick it back up.

Gargantuan
19-08-2012, 18:47
Genetor Anzion's theory on Ork technology doesn't make any sense.

Still Standing
19-08-2012, 19:05
I find it stupid that Chaos Daemons don't have any psychic defense.

They are entities of the warp. Their mere presence should be able to disrupt psykers. It even says in their codex that all their demonic gifts are classified as shooting weapons and special effects instead of being psychic powers because they're from the warp (which explains why they have no psykers).

But nothing is there to stop them. Almost every army gets some wargear or unit with a special rule that makes a psyker chance of success worse but not Daemons. The only thing we have is Khorne's Blessing of the Blood God buts it not even good and is only useful against force weapons really.

Frankly with the deny the witch roll, Daemons should pass it on 5+instead of 6+ just for being daemons.

I am made up the stuff of the material universe, but I get no special save against bullets! How unfair!

cornonthecob
19-08-2012, 19:07
Genetor Anzion's theory on Ork technology doesn't make any sense.



The issue with that is that too many take it seriously when it's just a theory by a character.

SimaoSegunda
19-08-2012, 19:24
A man who loses the king's colours loses the king's friendship :p



That's a very Sharpe observation.

Voss
19-08-2012, 19:44
Belial's Sword of Silence, a relic of incredible value to the whole Dark Angels chapter, constantly tossed away in favor of a stock Thunder Hammer.

A relic (particularly an important relic) isn't necessarily designed to be the 'best combat weapon ever.' In fact given its importance, risking it in battle is actually fairly stupid.


Eldar guardians
While their armament is now rather silly, the idea of guardians isn't. Having your populace trained to fight isn't a bad idea in a hostile universe: just ask Iyanden. There are times a group isn't given any other option but fight or die, and given their lifespan and the risk to their species, a minimal level of training is only sensible.

They really should fight from a distance, however.

insectum7
19-08-2012, 20:33
Tyranids not having learned that they better evolve biomorph for frag grenades or some other means of charging into cover at initiative. Not bother using all this extra biomass to make hyperfast assault bioforms that always go last.

They DID have "frag" for a while in the form of "Flesh Hooks". 3rd. and 4th. Ed. maybe. The hive mind clearly thought they weren't worth it.





I am made up the stuff of the material universe, but I get no special save against bullets! How unfair!

Most Daemons don't have physical armor, unlike nearly everything "made up of the stuff of the material universe".

Epicenter
19-08-2012, 21:15
But it doesn't make sense from a military vehicle designers stand point in game. They know how much force it takes to punch armour, just like we do in real life.

If you're going to bring real-life into it, actually we are seeing the "Eldar Low Armor Effect" in real life. I'm going to be using some "real-life" examples here so people who aren't interested please tl;dr to the next post. ;)

Modern tandem-charge warheads (from anti-tank missiles) and long-rod penetrators (from tank guns) penetrate armor so well that "piling more armor on" isn't doing much good after a point (sound familiar?). It's why a lot of modern "western" tank designs these days don't have highly sloped armor but are surprisingly slab-sided - simulating armor thickness or hoping for glances via critically sloped armor isn't all that useful these days. Weapons like the hand-held Russian RPG-29s use tandem-charge warheads and have been able to score telling hits on the front armor (eg; the best protected face) of modern western tanks like Challenger 2s and Abrams.

It might be possible to defeat these kinds of weapons by "piling more armor on", but modern tanks already have issues crossing bridges or even rolling around the countryside because of their weight; putting on enough armor to defeat these modern penetrators would make them entirely impractical as far as mobility goes.

So you're seeing a lot of interest in non-armor protection for even land vehicles beyond smoke discharges. Systems like the Russian Drozd or Arena, Israeli Trophy or Iron Fist, or Chinese JD-3 all fool with the incoming warhead and/or the shooter to prevent the weapon from hitting effectively; something that the holo-field is supposed to do.

I hope that helps. The problem with the Eldar codex is non-armor protection systems (like holo-fields and speed) aren't giving the Eldar vehicles the protection they should be.

Abaddonshand
19-08-2012, 21:26
GK techmarines being psykers.

Admech dislike psykers.

Psykers can't have bionics (Well they can, but it gives them psykic instabilities, with less control and higher risk for Perils of the Warp. (For those who do not know, Psyker powers are not based in, and controlled by, their brains, but their entire bodies and every cell in it. Removing some, especially big chunks like a limb, causes imbalances. ))

Techmarines don't always have bionics, unless they're from tHe iron hands. This starts mine off nicely;

- GK Techmarines not having stormbolters as basic (that 3pt upgrade is a real pain to factor into a list where everything else is a multiple of 2, 5 or 10.
- GK Techmarines not having access to servitors.
- Castellan Crowe & his daemon sword friend.

- Deathwing terminators being severely outshot by Black Templar terminators (tank hunters & 3 cyclones or assault cannon in a 6 man squad!?!)
- Maximum of 6 bikers in a ravenwing attack squadron
- Scouts as elites
- Ezekial only ML1

- Nothing in the Tyranids Codex above I1 with frag grenades.
- The Carnifex being only T6.
- The Carnifex being reduced to I1 by one of its CC upgrades (crushing claws), despite having a special rule designed to boost its I on the charge.
- The Carnifex being grossly over-pointed for what you get.
- The Harpy
- The Parasite of Morthrax
- The Tyrannofex
- The over costing of Hive Tyrants
- The vulnerability of warriors

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 21:36
How are you getting more than two special weapons in a Sword Brethren Terminator Squad?

DivineVisitor
19-08-2012, 21:59
Space Wolves
Iron Priest on Thunderwolf only has 1 wound.
Wolf Priest is a Space Wolf Chaplain/Apothecary but doesn't provide Feel No Pain.

Imperial Guard
You can Grav Chute out of a Vendetta when it goes flat out but not when it moves a mere 7 inches.

Xerkics
19-08-2012, 22:02
Techmarines don't always have bionics, unless they're from tHe iron hands. This starts mine off nicely;

- GK Techmarines not having stormbolters as basic (that 3pt upgrade is a real pain to factor into a list where everything else is a multiple of 2, 5 or 10.
- GK Techmarines not having access to servitors.
- Castellan Crowe & his daemon sword friend.

- Deathwing terminators being severely outshot by Black Templar terminators (tank hunters & 3 cyclones or assault cannon in a 6 man squad!?!)
- Maximum of 6 bikers in a ravenwing attack squadron
- Scouts as elites
- Ezekial only ML1

- Nothing in the Tyranids Codex above I1 with frag grenades.
- The Carnifex being only T6.
- The Carnifex being reduced to I1 by one of its CC upgrades (crushing claws), despite having a special rule designed to boost its I on the charge.
- The Carnifex being grossly over-pointed for what you get.
- The Harpy
- The Parasite of Morthrax
- The Tyrannofex
- The over costing of Hive Tyrants
- The vulnerability of warriors

Thats not technically accurate. Harpy has a wail of sort that acts sort of like frag not that it wants to be anywhere near cc.

Abaddonshand
19-08-2012, 23:07
How are you getting more than two special weapons in a Sword Brethren Terminator Squad?

I'm not, I don't play BT, but players in my area some how are, is this not allowed in their codex?


Thats not technically accurate. Harpy has a wail of sort that acts sort of like frag not that it wants to be anywhere near cc.

Okay, so one other unit that's useless in CC and not particularly good at shooting I forgot.

Another weird thing, although not from an army I play;

- Space Wolves hating psykers and convincing themselves that run priests aren't.

Xerkics
19-08-2012, 23:13
Well i think the Rune Priests have been clearly fooling the rest of space wolves for years saying nope not psyckers we just cast runes you know, totally legit ... right. :-p

A.T.
19-08-2012, 23:27
I'm not, I don't play BT, but players in my area some how are, is this not allowed in their codex?BT terminators are 2 special weapons per squad, regardless of size.

Actually the templars are quite straightforward as none of their options are tied to squad size - you get the same options at 5 models as you do at 20.

Drasanil
19-08-2012, 23:29
Imperial Guard
You can Grav Chute out of a Vendetta when it goes flat out but not when it moves a mere 7 inches.

That actually kind of makes sense. Flat out would imply the vendetta is in full flight and high up enough to make a safe jump, where as the 7' hover would imply it being closer to the ground making for very suicidal jumps.

Abaddonshand
20-08-2012, 00:21
BT terminators are 2 special weapons per squad, regardless of size.

Actually the templars are quite straightforward as none of their options are tied to squad size - you get the same options at 5 models as you do at 20.

I'll be having words the next time I play certain BT player then - thanks for the tip!

Raven1
20-08-2012, 00:40
Chaos Spawn seriously WTF!
Thanks to the 6th edition FAQ CSM Demon Princes are MC with wings have the jump ability, while codex demons Demon Princes with wings are flying MC

wanderingblade
20-08-2012, 00:48
Space Wolves
Iron Priest on Thunderwolf only has 1 wound.
Wolf Priest is a Space Wolf Chaplain/Apothecary but doesn't provide Feel No Pain.


I find it mildly confusing anyway that a life of understanding the Machine God's mysteries is the perfect learning for getting your own wolf pack, complete with Thunderwolf, while those poor Rune/Wolf priest schmucks don't have a clue.

I also find it odd that Wolf Lords overlook the heroes of the Wolf Guard and the veterans of the Long Fangs to hand out the highly prized Wolf Banners to Grey Hunters. Perhaps it's related to how we managed to lose all the Great Company banners, including the Chapter banner. At least they're not giving them to Blood Claws.

Speaking of Blood Claws, I like how if any guy in a Blood Claw squad is suffering from Mark of the Wulfen, they immediately strap him to a jump pack. No bike riding or footslogging for you!

And I'm not terribly impressed by the way that Grey Hunters have to hand in their extra weapons upon becoming a Long Fang or Wolf Guard.

Xerkics
20-08-2012, 01:03
Chaos Spawn seriously ARE!
Thanks to the 6th edition FAQ CSM Demon Princes are MC with wings have the jump ability, while codex demons Demon Princes with wings are flying MC

That is due to the way how much they are costed. Look how much a Greater Demon costs and how much you pay for Demon Prince . As an example Tyrant pays 60 points for wings im pretty sure demon prince doesnt pay anywhere near as much. This will probably be addressed in the next csm codex.

Kamenwati
20-08-2012, 02:01
Necrons: The number of melee oriented units (especially in our Elite section, looking at you Lychguard in particular) in an army whose stated battlefield methodology was the dominance of the battlefield via technology and ranged supremacy.
The fact that most of the Overlords upgrades are melee oriented rather then access to more powerful and esoteric shooting.
The shocking lack of long range weaponry in an army who as stated above believed in the application of force at range for battlefield supremacy. The whole "Well now that they are immortal robots who no longer fear death and thus are willing to get closer to enemy" argument doesn't hold up either. Any weapons they have now were developed before they transferred bodies.

Mikial
20-08-2012, 02:56
Someone tried telling me that lumbering behemoth for Leman Russ tanks now means that I have to snap fire my other weapons if I fire an ordnance turret weapon. If this is true it makes no sense lol

No, I would say it is more like they can always fire their main gun at normal BS while moving even if they fire another weapon at normal BS and the rest as snap fire.

Mikial
20-08-2012, 02:59
It makes no sense that Inquisitors, the premier, all-authority-bends-to-their-will agents of the Imperium, who regularly fight the most powerful and horrific of the enemies of mankind cannot get wargear for invulnerable saves, even though a basic IG company commander can. :wtf:

Hawthorne
20-08-2012, 05:36
Kroot Shapers. 3 Wounds at T3, 0-6+ AS, and no other bonuses, for that cost.


Holy crud...how have I or the other 2 Tau players at my FLGS never noticed that Shapers (an upgrade we take sometimes for the leadership boost) has 3 wounds...wow...I mean he still sucks but now he sucks but can maybe take 3 hits.

Bergen Beerbelly
20-08-2012, 05:53
Thanks again everyone, these are great!

Schismotive
20-08-2012, 07:39
1.black templars: a 195 pt hq with WS 5 BS 5 2 wounds and Ld 9. 3+ 4++ and oh yeah no frag grenades.
2. black templars codex...

Oh yeah and 3. Tau krootox rider uses the "kroot gun." Under it's profile its a S7 48" rapid fire weapon. what?

Charistoph
20-08-2012, 07:50
The thing that has always made the least sense to me is why did the Tau name one of their primary castes after the human home world? Earth Caste?

Earth as in ground, dirt, physical solid mass? It's not called the Terra Caste (though, really, they both the mean the same thing. For a similar example, look up the Supox from Star Control).


Hive Guard don't require LOS unlike every other missile launcher in the galaxy.

Bah, Tau have 2 missile-based systems that do the same thing. Where do you think the Hive Mind learned about it?


Holy crud...how have I or the other 2 Tau players at my FLGS never noticed that Shapers (an upgrade we take sometimes for the leadership boost) has 3 wounds...wow...I mean he still sucks but now he sucks but can maybe take 3 hits.

He also comes with 3 attacks, and costs 4 times a Carnivore. Nice, hunh? And it doesn't take much to ID him at all, no more than an Ethereal or a IG General.

A.T.
20-08-2012, 10:03
1.black templars: a 195 pt hq with WS 5 BS 5 2 wounds and Ld 9. 3+ 4++ and oh yeah no frag grenades.Pre-eldar special characters, back when they were 'special'.

Though he does have a 6" fearless aura - his Ld value is just used to keep going after he loses his last wound, is comprised of 4 models (who can still join units), and can get 7-9 S6 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge, with rerolls.
Not my first choice for a character but kind of fun for apoc and the like.

Still Standing
20-08-2012, 10:04
Tau krootox rider uses the "kroot gun." Under it's profile its a S7 48" rapid fire weapon. what?

Well that's the difference between a gun and a rifle.

This is a Light Gun. (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGk2N7l_4ASRA9lzDkHoN9jlOMngoti 0Gvk1nOYdMlpiCL44Ps5RrJpKcJoQ)

This is a Rifle. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/SA-80_rifle_1996.jpg)

Doesn't sound so silly in that context lol

Lord-Caerolion
20-08-2012, 12:38
I'm thinking perhaps the Kroot Gun was based on the Elephant Gun.

Malagor
20-08-2012, 12:49
War walkers can have 2 of the same weapons and it counts as two weapons but if the wraithlord take two of the same they count as one but twin-linked instead.

Still Standing
20-08-2012, 12:51
War walkers can have 2 of the same weapons and it counts as two weapons but if the wraithlord take two of the same they count as one but twin-linked instead.

Consider a War Walker to be a mechanical construction piloted by an Elf and assisted by complex arrays of computers and Spirit Stones. A Wraithlord is a ghost stuck in a tin can. Is it any wonder one is better with its guns than the other? :p

The Marshel
20-08-2012, 13:00
Oh yeah and 3. Tau krootox rider uses the "kroot gun." Under it's profile its a S7 48" rapid fire weapon. what?

i think its a nicer looking option now. You can move and fire 48" once and you can double tap at 24", plus now that you can advance and fire it you don't have to pick between trying to use krootox units as a firebase or a cc unit. I'm not really a tau player, so can't say for sure, but i'd think it'd be a decent bit or long range AT to have around in an army that often have to overrely on it's crisis suits for specialist roles.

Max_Killfactor
20-08-2012, 14:04
Raider's capacity being 10, which means you can't field a full unit of warriors and a character in one. You need a 10 man unit of warriors for a splintercannon or dark lance.

Similarly, but less important because 5 models is a smaller investment: Venom capacity of 5, which is the min size for warriors.

Basically, the Venom and Raider don't have room for Haemies... and FNP would be great on them for when their transport explodes. IIRC Space Marines have 11 capacity for Rhinos now, specifically to fix this problem.

Lhamaens giving all poisoned weapons by her and her Archon poison 2+. The only poisoned melee weapon an archon can take is a Venomblade, which... you guessed it... already wounds on a 2+. Lhamaens will give her Archon a poison 2+ on his/her splinter pistol though...

Mandrakes being unable to infiltrate and start the game with a pain token. So they can just show up and be shot.

But wait! The Decapitator is a Mandrake special character and he starts the game with a pain token! He can join them!!! Nope, that would make both of them borderline useful. The Decrapitator is not an IC. Womp Womp.

Goshawk
20-08-2012, 14:15
Commissars. The guy at the very front of the front most battle lines, yelling behind him to Guardsmen telling them to "get on his level"; the symbol of authority and fearlessness: Ld 9.

Vox casters. Radio system used to relay orders to squads in real time, has to be within yelling range to work.

Plasma weapons. Highly advanced and very rare relics of a better age of humanity, handed out to Guardsmen like scarfs at a Kohl's clearance sale.

Leman Russ. Reputation as being enormous and hard to kill, as many Hull Points as a Dark Eldar Raider.

wanderingblade
20-08-2012, 14:32
Basically, the Venom and Raider don't have room for Haemies... and FNP would be great on them for when their transport explodes. IIRC Space Marines have 11 capacity for Rhinos now, specifically to fix this problem.

Would be news to me. I'd really love it if you were right, as at the moment Grey Hunters have to pick between their second special weapon and a Wolf Guard pack leader in they want to go into a Rhino. Apparently the resources of one of the biggest and oldest chapters in the Imperium doesn't stretch to both.

Although, since I'm back on the subject, I find it really weird that all the bike-mounted recce is entrusted to the notoriously reckless Blood Claws and Grey Hunters can't get near a bike a all. Or Wolf Scouts either. Bike-riding is as neglected a part of their education as taking objectives it appears. Novices can manage it, but not the mighty Wolf Scouts!

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I can take Saga of Majesty on a Venerable Dreadnought, but the thing doesn't actually have a leadership value...

PinkDefiler
20-08-2012, 14:37
"Lictors cannot attack the turn they arrive."

**** you, honestly, **** you.

Max_Killfactor
20-08-2012, 14:50
Would be news to me. I'd really love it if you were right, as at the moment Grey Hunters have to pick between their second special weapon and a Wolf Guard pack leader in they want to go into a Rhino. Apparently the resources of one of the biggest and oldest chapters in the Imperium doesn't stretch to both.


My mistake then. Maybe I just dreamed it.

Also, Drazhar can only join incubi units. Incubi cannot take grenades and neither can Drazhar, so they have issues there. Additionally, Incubi are AP3 and have no problems destroying MEQ, adding Drazhar just means they are more likely to completely wipe out a Marine Squad, thus leaving them open to being shot to death the next turn. Drazhar is great at destroying TEQ, but Incubi are fantastically terrible at it. Drazhar would probably be best if he could join Harlies (decent at killing everything, invulnerable save to somewhat survive TEQs attacks) or Wyches (to tarpit while Drazhar does what he does best)... but unlike every other Phoenix Lord, Drazhar can only join his aspect.

loveless
20-08-2012, 14:53
Mandrakes and the Decapitator. They're just a bucket of "...why?" not helped at all by a busy Elite section in the DE Codex.

On the Imperial side, I'm still annoyed that it's so hard to find/field a non-terminator marine model toting a Heavy Flamer. I suppose it would make Tactical squads too efficient at clearing hordes, but I know some green Marines who would really like some more fiery options...

wanderingblade
20-08-2012, 15:00
My mistake then. Maybe I just dreamed it.


Well, I'm not exactly confident that I'm right, although I know it's the case in the Space Wolf codex. I seem to recall it was 11 for a bit, but they must have changed it back. Clearly they must have had HQ retinues to sell. It's pretty weird though that if an HQ joins an ordinary troop squad, he demands they chuck away some of their weapons first.

edit:





On the Imperial side, I'm still annoyed that it's so hard to find/field a non-terminator marine model toting a Heavy Flamer. I suppose it would make Tactical squads too efficient at clearing hordes, but I know some green Marines who would really like some more fiery options...

Yes.

madden
20-08-2012, 15:12
Ah well that's marines but the humble guards man can have a heavy flamer.

MagicHat
20-08-2012, 15:17
Codex SM have rhino and phobos land raiders with transport capacity of 12 because Ward wanted to ferry characters with the squads.
All other rhinoes/phobos LR have capacity 10.

Sanguiniary priest loses his ranged weapon when in terminator armour.
BA razorbacks have cheaper heavy flamer option and their Devastators are much better at haggling.
BA captains can't take artificer armour.

GK have many suits of AA. Only the BH champions wears one. Clearly, they stole all the BA armours out of spite.

loveless
20-08-2012, 15:25
Are you sure about the Rhinos? I know Vanilla Drop Pods can take 12, but I'm pretty sure the Rhinos are still at 10. The Land Raiders all have various levels of capacity.

MagicHat
20-08-2012, 15:44
It is the drop pods and Phobos LR in C: SM that have transport capacity 12, my bad.
All other chapters drop pods and Phobos LR max out at 10.

Still Standing
20-08-2012, 15:54
My mistake then. Maybe I just dreamed it.

Also, Drazhar can only join incubi units. Incubi cannot take grenades and neither can Drazhar, so they have issues there. Additionally, Incubi are AP3 and have no problems destroying MEQ, adding Drazhar just means they are more likely to completely wipe out a Marine Squad, thus leaving them open to being shot to death the next turn. Drazhar is great at destroying TEQ, but Incubi are fantastically terrible at it. Drazhar would probably be best if he could join Harlies (decent at killing everything, invulnerable save to somewhat survive TEQs attacks) or Wyches (to tarpit while Drazhar does what he does best)... but unlike every other Phoenix Lord, Drazhar can only join his aspect.

Makes sense to me. Perhaps they need to change the other Phoenix Lords to match the Fallen Phoenix.

loveless
20-08-2012, 16:01
Makes sense to me. Perhaps they need to change the other Phoenix Lords to match the Fallen Phoenix.

I'd be okay with this - it feels odd to have Phoenix Lords with other units, IMO. That's just me, though - don't hang me! :p

Clarkson
20-08-2012, 16:06
Blood Angels Codex:

Astorath executes the Death Company who survive battle in every Blood Angels successor Chapter how exactly?

Chops their heads off with his axe.. im sure its stated in the book.

Death Company are a dedicated assault unit yet they lost Rending and gained Relentless which makes them better at shooting.

and to an extent better in CC, if they survive getting shot at with over watch or fail to make a charge they will have a chance to rapidfire next turn, or just shoot their bolters and still assault

Dante doesn't have Eternal Warrior but Calgar ad Grimnar have the rule, despite being older and more infamous than either of them.

Can't help you there.. but im sure it will either be fixed by the next dex or mini dex.. or eternal warrior will be nerfed in a faq

Psychic Furioso with Wings of Sanguinius.

So? It's a Librarian interned into a dreadnought.. yes its broken game wise, but fluff wise it makes sense.

Librarians who succumb to the Black Rage are executed for the safety of their brother Marines, so why did they make an exception for Mephiston/Calistarius?

Mephy fell to the rage while trapped under rubble.. yet cured himself by the time he was freed.. one of the very few BA's to ever do that.. and i have no clue who the other one is.. but probably the same or similar happened

I believe someone else mentioned the retardation of having BS3 Scouts with several campaigns of experience vs BS4 Guard Veterans.

Just deal with it.. they wound on a 4+ rend on a 6 (ignoring armour not ap3) can take out AV12 with a lucky shot (for a str 3 gun that is pretty awesome) get
+1 to coversaves and can infiltrate to anywhere on the board pretty much.. and you complain about bs3.
Veterans in general are only better (sometimes) at shooting than Tactical Marines because of their wargear and not due to their greater experience.

Other Codices/Rulebook:

Lance weapons compromise the effectiveness of heavy armour but have no similar ability against any other armour type.

They were designed to take out heavy armoured tanks and sheilding.. and if it was a -2 on all armour types... a av8 rhino would be stupid. av8 open topped vehicle worse.. they stopped it at taking out heavy armour.. quit griping

Chainswords have no AP value despite quite obviously being able to tear through flak jackets in the background.

game balance.. if a chainsword is ap5/6 then orks would have no chance, and orks are a big seller.. why would they jeopardize that?

Poison is equally effective against everything that can be poisoned.

balance again.. its too complicated or unfair if you can only wound a SM on 6's because they are immune to poison or close to it.

Snap shots unfairly penalizes low volume high quality shooting.

try running with a lascannon (the thing that looks huge even compared to a SM) and shoot an accurate shot?

Extra armour doesn't actually increase the AV value or hull points.

I think this will be changed in this edition. either with an exta HP or negates the first glance

Hive Guard don't require LOS unlike every other missile launcher in the galaxy.

they shoot tiny tyranids that seek out their prey using pheromones and other tricks of the trade.. i'll forgive the need of LoS for them

Tervigons can produce far more Termagants than looks feasible based on their model.

So? Spore Mine thingy (pyrovore?) doesnt look like it can produce them yet it does...

The Imperial Guard have mastered the secret art of giving orders to their troops as other armies keep wondering why seemingly average Guardsmen can outmove and outshoot them.

there are sometimes a million guard against less than a 100 people.. ofc they will be outsmarted..

Goshawk
20-08-2012, 16:35
Mephiston's origional name was Calistarius, and he was a Librarian that was put into the Death Company after beginning to suffer from the Black Rage (or was it Red Thirst?... aren't they the same thing anyways?). He was trapped under rubble during the course of a battle, and fought the Black Rage and eventually had overcome it by the time he was rescued. He was trapped as Calistarius, and reborn as Mephiston when he was freed from the rubble.

...Now would be a good time for a Blood Angel player to come in and tell me I'm wrong. It would be much appreciated for me to get this story right.

Konovalev
20-08-2012, 16:45
Mephistons story is worse than Draigos...

at least Draigo used a sword, Mephiston just walked around naked killing things with his bare hands...

Max_Killfactor
20-08-2012, 16:45
Makes sense to me. Perhaps they need to change the other Phoenix Lords to match the Fallen Phoenix.

If you are going strictly by fluff, sure. But when strict adherence to fluff means units don't see the table, then I think there are problems.

Maybe I'd be okay with the rule if Drazhar brought more to his unit than complete overkill against units they already have no problem handling. To me, it seems Drazhar's restrictions were more of an afterthought or at least poorly thought out. I suppose in 5th edition he wasn't quite as terrible for his unit since Incubi could still kill termies. He'd probably sway combat against SS termies in the incubi's favor.

But I still feel Drazhar in 6th edition fits the title of this thread. Which is a shame, because as an individual, he got better under 6th editions rules (or at least relatively better since a lot of assault units got worse). Armor save of 2+, eternal warrior, FNP (via pain token), and AP2 weapons striking at I7. Nasty.

Still Standing
20-08-2012, 16:51
I shouldn't worry about it, I have 5 HQ choices (Retinue, Priest, Confessor, the named Priest, and the named Confessor) that are now useless in my Codex, and only 1 useful one (Saint Celestine). There is one maybe useful one - Canoness.

Thud
20-08-2012, 18:19
The Sanguinor - Character killer extraordinaire! Has special rules to single out and kill dead an enemy IC. Super good, non? 275 points and AP3 in close combat. Awesome. :eyebrows:

Fear Ghoul
20-08-2012, 18:33
Astorath executes the Death Company who survive battle in every Blood Angels successor Chapter how exactly?

Chops their heads off with his axe.. im sure its stated in the book.

You missed my point entirely. Astorath is executioner of the Death Company for EVERY Blood Angels successor chapter spread throughout the entire galaxy.

Death Company are a dedicated assault unit yet they lost Rending and gained Relentless which makes them better at shooting.


and to an extent better in CC, if they survive getting shot at with over watch or fail to make a charge they will have a chance to rapidfire next turn, or just shoot their bolters and still assault

:rolleyes: I was referring to their assault output solely, and not whatever they can shoot during the shooting phase. Or maybe we should remove Furious Charge from Khorne Berserkers and give them relentless and bolters. Let's see how well down that goes...


Psychic Furioso with Wings of Sanguinius.

So? It's a Librarian interned into a dreadnought.. yes its broken game wise, but fluff wise it makes sense.

You honestly think it makes sense that a Librarian can exert the psychic will to lift a several tonne warmachine dozens of feet into the air and land it safely, and somehow not be able to do this at any other point in his career? I don't ever remember my Librarians lifting Leman Russes off the ground with his mind.


Librarians who succumb to the Black Rage are executed for the safety of their brother Marines, so why did they make an exception for Mephiston/Calistarius?

Mephy fell to the rage while trapped under rubble.. yet cured himself by the time he was freed.. one of the very few BA's to ever do that.. and i have no clue who the other one is.. but probably the same or similar happened

Calistarius succumbed to the Black Rage on Armageddon and was inducted to the Death Company. During a battle for some chapel (?) the roof collapsed and he was buried alive, upon which point he also fell victim to the Red Thirst. Over seven days and seven nights he fought both with his mind alone and on the seventh day he burst from his tomb and was reborn Mephiston. This story (from 2nd edition onwards) is completely at odds with the idea that Librarians which fall to the Black Rage are swiftly executed lest they endanger the Chapter with their rogue powers (5th edition). Under the new version Calistarius should also have been executed.


I believe someone else mentioned the retardation of having BS3 Scouts with several campaigns of experience vs BS4 Guard Veterans.

Just deal with it.. they wound on a 4+ rend on a 6 (ignoring armour not ap3) can take out AV12 with a lucky shot (for a str 3 gun that is pretty awesome) get
+1 to coversaves and can infiltrate to anywhere on the board pretty much.. and you complain about bs3.

Do you even understand the topic of this thread? The whole point is that BS3 Scouts that are as seasoned as BS4 Imperial Guard Veterans makes no sense. So no I won't get over it actually, and maybe you should troll less.


Chainswords have no AP value despite quite obviously being able to tear through flak jackets in the background.

game balance.. if a chainsword is ap5/6 then orks would have no chance, and orks are a big seller.. why would they jeopardize that?


I'll remember that next time I try to chainsaw someone in Gears of War: "I'm sorry Mr Locust I didn't realize you were wearing clothes, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered trying to saw you in half."


Poison is equally effective against everything that can be poisoned.

balance again.. its too complicated or unfair if you can only wound a SM on 6's because they are immune to poison or close to it.

Balance has nothing to do with this issue. This is all about laziness from a company that makes nearly everything in the Space Marine codex cost multiples of 5 so that it's easier to count for little Timmy.


Snap shots unfairly penalizes low volume high quality shooting.

try running with a lascannon (the thing that looks huge even compared to a SM) and shoot an accurate shot?

Try answering the following question: "Which of the following two would be fire at a charging enemy most accurately? Is it a) a Pheonix Lord or b) a Termagant? Sorry, trick question, they're both as accurate as each other at shooting when being charged.":wtf:


Extra armour doesn't actually increase the AV value or hull points.

I think this will be changed in this edition. either with an exta HP or negates the first glance

It wasn't changed in the main rulebook, so there's no reason to believe it will be in the codices.


Hive Guard don't require LOS unlike every other missile launcher in the galaxy.

they shoot tiny tyranids that seek out their prey using pheromones and other tricks of the trade.. i'll forgive the need of LoS for them

How is that effectively any different from a heat-seeking missile, which our world has had for several decades but which eludes the best and brightest of the Eldar and Imperial scientific community? Robin Cruddace only gave Hive Guard that ability because it's one of the few things which make them viable as an anti-tank unit.


Tervigons can produce far more Termagants than looks feasible based on their model.

So? Spore Mine thingy (pyrovore?) doesnt look like it can produce them yet it does...

:rolleyes: You can simply add the Biovore to my list of things that don't make sense then.


Mephistons story is worse than Draigos...

at least Draigo used a sword, Mephiston just walked around naked killing things with his bare hands...

What's silly about that? He is effectively a Daemon Prince of the Blood Angels. Back in the day he had Vampire Lord stats, and his old picture had him wiping blood from his face whilst being surrounded by smoke and bats. 2nd edition wasn't really as subtle as a lot of people like to think it was...

Chem-Dog
20-08-2012, 18:33
Oh yeah and 3. Tau krootox rider uses the "kroot gun." Under it's profile its a S7 48" rapid fire weapon. what?

I fail to see the issue here, it's a big-ass gun strapped to the back of a space-parrot/cow beast, it's bigger than "man portable" and has the kick to prove it, at close range, accuracy is less of an issue and the gunner can shoot faster.


"Lictors cannot attack the turn they arrive."

**** you, honestly, **** you.

Lurk. "ta-dah". Dead.
Pointless.


Mephiston's origional name was Calistarius, and he was a Librarian that was put into the Death Company after beginning to suffer from the Black Rage (or was it Red Thirst?... aren't they the same thing anyways?). He was trapped under rubble during the course of a battle, and fought the Black Rage and eventually had overcome it by the time he was rescued. He was trapped as Calistarius, and reborn as Mephiston when he was freed from the rubble.

Almost perfect. But Mephiston broke free of his "tomb" (at midnight, naturally) and proceeded to make his own way back to Imperial Lines. He doesn't need rescuing.


Mephistons story is worse than Draigos...

at least Draigo used a sword, Mephiston just walked around naked killing things with his bare hands...

Oh Please. Mephiston becomes an avatar of death, remade in the image of the Primarch in his most wrathful cast. His transformation is both miraculous and sinister and none, save perhaps Mephiston himself, knows if he represent salvation or a final and unutterable damnation.
He killed a Handful of Ork Boyz whilst in full power-up mode, hardly a huge achievement.

Draigo, on the other hand, Managed to reforge a sword whilst outside of the material realm and then manages to exist inside the realm that's utterly anathema to anything living and curb-stomping everything he lays eyes on. The only good thing about the Draigo story is that some fluff nuts have come up with some interesting ways of not making the story suck halfway as much as it appears to.

Gangremond
20-08-2012, 19:19
SM: Command squads unable to take jump packs.

Modelwise: Guys wearing helmets are easier to kill.
Khan, the chapter master of an army known for bikes (Born in the saddle 4th ed), doesn't have an official model with a bike.

PANZERBUNNY
20-08-2012, 20:16
Many of you people are pointing out the simple flaw with a D6 system and stats.

There can only be so much divergence in abilities.

Think of a Civilian humanoid with 0 BS. Slightly trained, ie. has fired a gun 1 BS. Conscripts 2 BS. Trained line soldier 3 BS. Space Marine and other Veterans of all types 4 BS. Heroes of various degrees 5+ BS.

Regarding Space Marines. Remember, not many of them are free thinking soldiers who take the initiative. Most are well trained indoctrinated drones who seek direction and leadership. Adhering to the Astartes is a boon, but not always a blessing.

I could actually see IG Storm Troopers being a more fluid, reactive force on the battlefield if cut off from command or communications. They aren't anywhere near as drone like.

Yes, some chapters tend to pursue their own tactics, but again, I don't see many marines being free thinkers. Those who are tend to be plucked out and bred as officers.

Konovalev
20-08-2012, 21:19
Oh Please. Mephiston becomes an avatar of death, remade in the image of the Primarch in his most wrathful cast. His transformation is both miraculous and sinister and none, save perhaps Mephiston himself, knows if he represent salvation or a final and unutterable damnation.
He killed a Handful of Ork Boyz whilst in full power-up mode, hardly a huge achievement.

I'm not saying draigos story isn't ridiculous. But Orks are known to be tough. Capable of surviving bolter shots, being cut in half, limbs blown/torn off them, etc. And a naked space marine killed a bunch of them with his hands. Not with psychic powers, or an improvised "ork with spiked helmet" mace, but with his hands. Not to mention these orks were apparently powerless to stop him, completely incapable of harming a space marine who was unarmed and without armor.

As if that wasn't goofy enough, this space marine transforms into what is essentially a daemon prince(as far as power goes) without any visible change. Even The Sanguinor isn't as buffed up as Mephiston, and The Sanguinor is deus ex machina defined.

GrogDaTyrant
20-08-2012, 21:40
One thing that irks me to no end about the Orks... One of the armies (if not THE army) with the most customization and variance across the entirety of it, has the most simplified 'no-options' units. Seriously, how is it every Looted weapon magically becomes a d3-shot Autocannon, even if it was a Heavy Bolter prior? Or why is it I seriously cannot have a weapon OTHER than a twin-linked sawn-off big-shoota on any Bike? You mean to seriously tell me no Ork has been crazy enough to mount a massive rokkit launcher on his hog? Or that a Looted Wagon can't be made out of a Hammerhead chassis? Or that the Orks, supposedly an army built with a healthy appetite for close quarter fighting, hasn't come up with any other close combat weapon beyond "Axe", "Chainsword", "Big Axe", "Power Klaw", and limited supply "Cutting Torch"?

Darth Bobo
20-08-2012, 22:09
How about an imperial commissar executing an allied Magnus Calgar for failing a leadership test?

Clarkson
20-08-2012, 22:10
You missed my point entirely. Astorath is executioner of the Death Company for EVERY Blood Angels successor chapter spread throughout the entire galaxy.

and im sure seth and other people in other chapters will kill them.. its a defect they dont want the inquistion knowing.. they really gonna let them live because astorath cant make it for his 10oclock appointment?

:rolleyes: I was referring to their assault output solely, and not whatever they can shoot during the shooting phase. Or maybe we should remove Furious Charge from Khorne Berserkers and give them relentless and bolters. Let's see how well down that goes...

then you didnt come across that well.. sure losing rending is a pain.. but they still pack quite a punch in CC with all the pw and fists and extra gubbins they can take.

You honestly think it makes sense that a Librarian can exert the psychic will to lift a several tonne warmachine dozens of feet into the air and land it safely, and somehow not be able to do this at any other point in his career? I don't ever remember my Librarians lifting Leman Russes off the ground with his mind.

yet runepriest can open the floor (billions of tons of rock, metal, and other stuff) and suck in people with Jaws? You seem to be bitching about things you have no control over..

Calistarius succumbed to the Black Rage on Armageddon and was inducted to the Death Company. During a battle for some chapel (?) the roof collapsed and he was buried alive, upon which point he also fell victim to the Red Thirst. Over seven days and seven nights he fought both with his mind alone and on the seventh day he burst from his tomb and was reborn Mephiston. This story (from 2nd edition onwards) is completely at odds with the idea that Librarians which fall to the Black Rage are swiftly executed lest they endanger the Chapter with their rogue powers (5th edition). Under the new version Calistarius should also have been executed.

as i stated above.. other chapters kill psyker that turn bad and then are investigated by the inquistion to see if thing have spread.. and BA have a flaw they want to keep hidden

Do you even understand the topic of this thread? The whole point is that BS3 Scouts that are as seasoned as BS4 Imperial Guard Veterans makes no sense. So no I won't get over it actually, and maybe you should troll less.

I understand perfectly... I just set about answering your rhetoric with actual answers that explain away your pissed off nature

I'll remember that next time I try to chainsaw someone in Gears of War: "I'm sorry Mr Locust I didn't realize you were wearing clothes, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered trying to saw you in half."

At least keep it to the same game system please? You accuse me of trolling, yet you bring other excuses into this thread and forum that doesnt rightly have a place for it here. and yes chainsaws arent killy death because of balance.. people already complain that SM kill xenos too easily.. add in a CCW they dont have to pay for that can cleave through their armour or rend and you are just making people not buy the army most affected.

Balance has nothing to do with this issue. This is all about laziness from a company that makes nearly everything in the Space Marine codex cost multiples of 5 so that it's easier to count for little Timmy.

So you want every game to be 4 hours prep time and 9 hours table top? If you want a game system where str and ap and other thing affect every last person.. play whfb or historic games like FoW or the other countless thousands.. 40k already got too complicated with 6th.. god help us all if you get your way and 7th will take all week to play a simple 1v1

Try answering the following question: "Which of the following two would be fire at a charging enemy most accurately? Is it a) a Pheonix Lord or b) a Termagant? Sorry, trick question, they're both as accurate as each other at shooting when being charged.":wtf:

like i said.. its balance and yes i agree with you on this.. laziness.. but dont argue with me, when it was them that made the decisions

It wasn't changed in the main rulebook, so there's no reason to believe it will be in the codices.

and why not? and i mention mini-dex's too, you know? the WD supplements?

How is that effectively any different from a heat-seeking missile, which our world has had for several decades but which eludes the best and brightest of the Eldar and Imperial scientific community? Robin Cruddace only gave Hive Guard that ability because it's one of the few things which make them viable as an anti-tank unit.


Because they are insectoids bred specifically to kill whatever they come up agaisnt.. they evolved a tracking system naturally that can kill anything.. and sure cruddance may have given them that ability just coz.. doesnt mean everyone should have them

:rolleyes: You can simply add the Biovore to my list of things that don't make sense then.

Mine too but dont roll your eyes at me because i found something else that displease the lord and master of us all.. all hail the mighty and apptly named "FEAR GHOUL"

Clarkson
20-08-2012, 22:18
How about an imperial commissar executing an allied Magnus Calgar for failing a leadership test?

I still need to do this in a tournee.. its a shame that i'd probs be disqualified for trolling XD

Xerkics
20-08-2012, 22:26
Like Was mentioned Previously The reason he is called Mephiston is that he is no longer Calistarius. And what GW is implying with this name change and stat line is that he is possessed by a daemon prince/greater daemon of tzeentch therefore the stats. He made a deal with the devil. Mephistopheles like in Faust. SEe what is implied here?

Inquisitor Engel
20-08-2012, 22:45
CRAFTWORLD VS DE CODEX

Kabalite: "We are cutthroat traitorous raiders who have no reguard for our lives or others!"
Guardian: "We are a dying race with hyper advanced technology!"
Kabalite: "We arm ourselves with long ranged weapons, our haemonculi make us tougher than orks and if I fall in battle my comrades bring a piece of my soul back so I may be saved from the predations of slaanesh and live once more!"
Guardian: "We shoot as far as a space marine can catch us with a powerfist, our warlocks herd us to the front lines (every single warlock power involves either getting stuck in', or drawing fire, or making sure you die to a man) and our reward after our inevitable violent death in battle is having our soul eternally trapped in a stone, or put in an unfeeling battle-coffin."
Kabalite: "...wow, that's mean."

This sums up what's wrong with Guardians in general.

I have my own thoughts on how to make them truly worth taking, but we'll leave that for another thread.

Clarkson
20-08-2012, 22:53
This sums up what's wrong with Guardians in general.

I have my own thoughts on how to make them truly worth taking, but we'll leave that for another thread.

but arent guardians just the militia? the home guard as it were.. not meant for interstellar fights

GrogDaTyrant
20-08-2012, 23:11
but arent guardians just the militia? the home guard as it were.. not meant for interstellar fights

Not all of them are. One of the themes for Craftworld Ulthwe was that their guardians were an active, standing army. They used to get +1 BS if they were Guardian Defenders, or +1 WS if they were Storm Guardians. The idea was that Ulthwe didn't have *as many* Aspect Warriors as other craftworlds, but they had a far greater number of Eldar willing to form an active-duty military as well as the population to support it.

TrojanWolf
20-08-2012, 23:28
Kheradruakh, a creature that can slink between the shadows without anyone knowing of his presence, as well as being part of a back-stabbing, sneaky and cruel race... cannot charge on the turn he arrives. No, instead of just grabbing some hapless guy from behind and slicing his throat then butchering the rest of his squad before they know what's going on, he must casually stroll out of his hiding place into clear view and give an evil laugh first.

Let's also remember the chameleon Lictors and their ultimate evolution, the Deathleaper...

Clarkson
20-08-2012, 23:35
Kheradruakh, a creature that can slink between the shadows without anyone knowing of his presence, as well as being part of a back-stabbing, sneaky and cruel race... cannot charge on the turn he arrives. No, instead of just grabbing some hapless guy from behind and slicing his throat then butchering the rest of his squad before they know what's going on, he must casually stroll out of his hiding place into clear view and give an evil laugh first.

Let's also remember the chameleon Lictors and their ultimate evolution, the Deathleaper...

dont forget that straken can ignore armour with an arm made of steel but abaddon with the gribbliest of all daemon weapons pings off TDA after first checking if the daemons face munches him

onidemon
21-08-2012, 03:41
but arent guardians just the militia? the home guard as it were.. not meant for interstellar fights

That seems to have evolved over the various iterations of 40k. Early on, Guardians were the core of an Eldar army, and you supplemented them with aspect warriors, much like how tactical marines are supplemented with assault or devastator units.

As recently as 2nd edition, the humble Guardian was a very capable fighter, with every soldier carrying the equivalent of an armor penetrating storm bolter.

Then, toward the end of 2nd and beginning of 3rd ed, aspect warriors grew more and more appealing to the studio players and in turn the designers, and with that change in focus guardians had to keep fading into the background. Like a child eating just the marshmallows out of a bowl of Lucky Charms, battle reports in White Dwarf started focusing just on aspect warriors.

This didn't get better when Gav Thorpe's Eldar codex changed the focus of the Eldar background from "a dying race, defending it's interests in a universe driving them to extinction" to something more like "their arrogance is matched only by their arrogant contempt for the Mon-keigh, who they hold in arrogant contempt." Guardians hint at a race where everyone is fighting for survival, while an all-aspect force better fit the uber-elite "arrogance", which Gav felt was very important to stress with the Eldar, and so it found it's way into the actual army list. (Also, that list was the one that came with a dreadnought so powerful compared to the rest of the army it practically became the Eldar army in internet arguments)

For anyone who joined the game in the last five to ten years, it must be hard to look at the Eldar and not think of Guardians the way we think of grotz in an ork army... an interesting way to hold an uncontested objective, and not much else.

zippy_tang
21-08-2012, 05:09
but arent guardians just the militia? the home guard as it were.. not meant for interstellar fights

Yeh see this is what I think allot of people don't understand about guardians. They are not foot soldiers, but a form of citizen styled militia. Most of the armor, weapons and equipment are most likely possessions of the guardians themselves and not given to them by the craft world. while Im sure generalization of such equipment is inevitable to functioning as a cohesive squad. Items like shuriken catapults and helmets etc are probably passed down through the family. Much like ancient creek hoplites their role in war is to protect the lives of their families and land (ships lol) more so than achieving some military goal passed down by the autarch. Then again this is games workshops story so pretty much all of what I said could be very very wrong lol.


As far as my input to this thread goes i feel several units in the current chaos codex pull you right out of the game saying such things as "wait what....that sucks".

-icons as many have mentioned have gotten even worse with the new wound allocation rules. Not to mention the price for said icon doesn't change based on unit size so taking an icon in a 5 man squad in some cases is paying almost double the price for an effect. For 40 damn points a squad of those marines should have that 5+ until the last mans bolter rounds fall silent!

-chaos spawn are like windup toys and i have never understood why they have a place in a strategic tabletop wargame.

-chaos chosen have a weirdly restrictive set of options. plasma pistol or weapon.....why cant i have both on the same models?

last and not least ive always disliked the risk/reward/cost of psykers in the game in general. if these guys are such a risk over the more solid force commander style characters (psychic tests etc) then why make them cost the awfully over costed price in comparison. Their contributions to a game can be at times debatable and of course depending on the powers available to them can prove these points could have been spent elsewhere. Now there is some great psykers out there don't get me wrong but are they totally worth their price tag? Then again Im just a sore tzeench player hoping for some light with the new chaos codex on the horizon.

Gwyidion
21-08-2012, 05:38
Items like shuriken catapults and helmets etc are probably passed down through the family.

And yet, in the WH40K world, "Old"="powerful", so that still doesn't explain why those weapons are crap.

Not to mention, the complete absurdity of giving the most untrained and least well protected the shortest range weapons in the codex.

Cap'n Facebeard
21-08-2012, 05:49
The Eldar Corsair list has rules for a Webway Portal that no-one can take.

(derp if this has been faq'd since then)

Clarkson
21-08-2012, 05:56
For anyone who joined the game in the last five to ten years, it must be hard to look at the Eldar and not think of Guardians the way we think of grotz in an ork army... an interesting way to hold an uncontested objective, and not much else.

in 1k you can get 159 grots, 15 runtherds and a PK big mek.. and 2k double the amount..

I dont care if my enemy is mechanized. shifting 398 models from teh board is hard to do..

i love me some grots..

but yes i agree with what you said, they went from a capable unit.. to whatever crap they are now... at least you dont HAVE to take a unit of them, unlike tau.

Clarkson
21-08-2012, 05:56
The Eldar Corsair list has rules for a Webway Portal that no-one can take.

(derp if this has been faq'd since then)

hints at the DE allies?

MajorWesJanson
21-08-2012, 06:15
I don't have the exact wording in front of me...but I don't think the death mark snipers from Necrons rule makes sense...the one where they are allowed to arrive from deep strike on you opponents turn...and do nothing! What is the point of that rule? I thought something in 6th would address it, but haven't found anything yet...when looking at the special rules, I thought myabe they'd gain that interceptor rule, so when you opponent has something arrive from reserve, they "pop out" thanks to their special rule, and then get to shoot (thanks to the interceptor rule), but they don't have anthing like that...it makes no sense to me.

Well, if Deathmarks arrive in your opponent's turn, they get to move and shoot normally in your following turn, rather than deepstriking in your turn. Correct?

OgreBattle
21-08-2012, 07:15
Necrons: The number of melee oriented units (especially in our Elite section, looking at you Lychguard in particular) in an army whose stated battlefield methodology was the dominance of the battlefield via technology and ranged supremacy.
The fact that most of the Overlords upgrades are melee oriented rather then access to more powerful and esoteric shooting.

They were fighting the Eldar, the guys with 12" standard firearms.
The Eldar's Fearsome Anti-Necron distortion weapons are all... 12" or at most 24" range


The Necrons fell asleep in the 60 million years that every other race developed firearms that shoot 24"

A.T.
21-08-2012, 09:01
hints at the DE allies?No, an oversight - I saw it mentioned on the FW facebook page a couple of weeks back but the turnaround on their rules updates is months to years.
IIRC the void dreamer can take it.

Sai-Lauren
21-08-2012, 09:33
Retinue options for Marine officers
For example, I can have a Captain with a Jump Pack, but his Command Squad can't have them. Equally, I can put a Chapter Master in Terminator armour, but he's got to go find a Terminator Squad to hang around with if he wants a Tactical Dreadnought armoured bodyguard, the Honour Guard themselves can't take it.

And an officer who's good enough to be equipped with Terminator Armour - a relic of the chapter - can't have a relic blade.



Vox casters. Radio system used to relay orders to squads in real time, has to be within yelling range to work.

Battlefields are loud places, a vox may be the only way to coordinate actions effectively.

Thénon
21-08-2012, 09:35
Why are my Iron Hands, a first founding chapter, hardly mentioned in the codex and why did we not get a special character that let's us get some individuality?

Thanks GW.

battybattybats
21-08-2012, 09:48
A single Phoenix Lord Single-Handedly defeats an entire Tyranid planetary invasion stopping an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. One Eldar with no-one else, just all by himself VS billions of Tyranids and he wins and we get no explanation of how whatsoever despite this being perhaps the greatest victory in 40k history outside of the warp.

Lord Damocles
21-08-2012, 10:07
A single Phoenix Lord Single-Handedly defeats an entire Tyranid planetary invasion stopping an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. One Eldar with no-one else, just all by himself VS billions of Tyranids and he wins and we get no explanation of how whatsoever despite this being perhaps the greatest victory in 40k history outside of the warp.
Yeah, not so much (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?340800-Where-are-you-with-the-fluff-now&p=6217172&highlight=maugan#post6217172) :eyebrows:

Cap'n Facebeard
21-08-2012, 10:15
Why are my Iron Hands, a first founding chapter, hardly mentioned in the codex and why did we not get a special character that let's us get some individuality?

Never fear, soon you will get your own Codex with Ironhand Missiles, Ironhandsword and special character Bauxite Eisenfaust riding a giant iron fist.

feelnopain666
21-08-2012, 11:03
And yet, in the WH40K world, "Old"="powerful", so that still doesn't explain why those weapons are crap.

Not to mention, the complete absurdity of giving the most untrained and least well protected the shortest range weapons in the codex.

Thats because in the 2nd Edition, the Shuriken catapult had a profile more akin to the stormbolter. But then it came the 3rd, when GW decided to remove modifiers (and others) and the Eldar end up with some concepts like the ridiculous range of this weapon.

A.T.
21-08-2012, 11:27
And yet, in the WH40K world, "Old"="powerful", so that still doesn't explain why those weapons are crap.More common is the tradition over practicality angle.

And by the numbers they are actually quite powerful - despite being the equivalent of lightweight submachineguns handed out to civilian militia they inflict damage in the same catagory as armour piecing high explosive micro-missile launchers.

Not much in the 40k game system perhaps, but then again S3 AP- represents something that will blow your limbs off.

Arbedark
21-08-2012, 11:49
but then again S3 AP- represents something that will blow your limbs off.

Something people need to take into account more often when complaining about stats etc.

The same applies to the guy bitching about Chainswords. Flakk armour will save someone from a weapon that will Blow Limbs off 33% of the time. Not surprising really that the same armour will save a victim of a Chainsword hit as often.

igwarlord
21-08-2012, 12:50
I got a wet suit for shark diving that was tested by stopping a chainsaw
I won't go using it to stop a bullet anytime soon

on topic best think in my
codex atm is Tycho's death company of 1 and Ogryns in all game terms

Cheeslord
21-08-2012, 13:26
On the back of my codex it says "Not even the mightiest of warriors can stand against the Daemons of the Warp". But Grey Knights stomp them flat without thinking.

GrogDaTyrant
21-08-2012, 15:58
For anyone who joined the game in the last five to ten years, it must be hard to look at the Eldar and not think of Guardians the way we think of grotz in an ork army... an interesting way to hold an uncontested objective, and not much else.

I think you're looking at Grots wrong, if that's how you view them... They still work great as a soak-screen to throw out in front, provide cover, and absorb charges from meatier CC units you want nothing to do with up close and personal. Which is quite a few units, since Ork boyz in general lost a lot of their teeth in combat with their last codex update.

nedius
21-08-2012, 16:35
I don't get why a dreadknight, esentially a large dreadnought just with the pilot alive and bolted onto the outside, is an MC rather than a walker... The walker category was designed for walking machines. The Dreadnight is a walking machine. So why isn't it?

Goshawk
21-08-2012, 16:54
Battlefields are loud places, a vox may be the only way to coordinate actions effectively.

I don't think you understood what I meant. The idea of the vox is that you talk into a reciever and a guy a mile away can understand what you said and act on it. As they are now, you have to be within 12" for your units to use it. Hence the yelling range part. If I can just yell to you what to do, why bother with the vox? I understand they are a loud place. Trust me. But voxes should have an effect that doesn't require you to be close enough that you could have talked over your shoulder and hear everything.

andrewm9
21-08-2012, 17:10
I don't get why a dreadknight, esentially a large dreadnought just with the pilot alive and bolted onto the outside, is an MC rather than a walker... The walker category was designed for walking machines. The Dreadnight is a walking machine. So why isn't it?

The Penitent Engine is more or less the same thing and it is a crappy dreadnaught. Be careful what you wish for.

El_Machinae
21-08-2012, 17:54
I don't think you understood what I meant. The idea of the vox is that you talk into a reciever and a guy a mile away can understand what you said and act on it. As they are now, you have to be within 12" for your units to use it. Hence the yelling range part. If I can just yell to you what to do, why bother with the vox? I understand they are a loud place. Trust me. But voxes should have an effect that doesn't require you to be close enough that you could have talked over your shoulder and hear everything.

I don't think that the scale of what 12" represents has ever been given.

Still Standing
21-08-2012, 17:57
I don't think that the scale of what 12" represents has ever been given.

Well an assault rifle fires 24", and the effective section range of a modern day assault rifle (SA80) is 600m. So 12" would represent approx 300m in my book.

terradax
21-08-2012, 18:01
LOL! This just turned into a big whine-thread :)
But to stay on topic, read my signature...

Konovalev
21-08-2012, 18:07
But to stay on topic, read my signature...

Same reason modern soldiers carry light machineguns which are not light, and assault rifles not meant to be used in an assault. Nomenclature.

Still Standing
21-08-2012, 18:13
Same reason modern soldiers carry light machineguns which are not light, and assault rifles not meant to be used in an assault. Nomenclature.

Well the Light Machine Gun (http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1462.aspx) is over 30kg lighter than the Heavy Machine Gun (http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1464.aspx), and the Assault Rifle (http://www.forces80.com/images/sa80.jpg) comes with a combat knife attached to the front...

Konovalev
21-08-2012, 18:21
Well the Light Machine Gun (http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1462.aspx) is over 30kg lighter than the Heavy Machine Gun (http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1464.aspx), and the Assault Rifle (http://www.forces80.com/images/sa80.jpg) comes with a combat knife attached to the front...

The light machine gun is still not light though, nor are assault rifles meant for melee. It's a naming convention.

Still Standing
21-08-2012, 18:29
Well assault doesn't mean melee combat. Neither does close quarter combat.

Threeshades
21-08-2012, 19:29
Well an assault rifle fires 24", and the effective section range of a modern day assault rifle (SA80) is 600m. So 12" would represent approx 300m in my book.
So a soldier walks roughly 150m while firing two shots from his rifle in 40k.

Still Standing
21-08-2012, 19:30
But what does two shots mean? Take 40k as a representation, not literally.

Threeshades
21-08-2012, 19:44
But what does two shots mean? Take 40k as a representation, not literally.

Exactly. The rules factor in the fact that it gets harder to aim at longer ranges, and the weapon range in the rules doesn't represent the actual weapon range, but how far you can shoot with a realistic chance of hitting a target.

Pentregarth
21-08-2012, 21:12
I think one of GW's lackeys once mentioned the ranges in the tabletop are not linear, but more or less exponential, so the 24" range of a lasgun represents more than 4 times the amount the guardsman carrying it can walk in a turn...I can't provide a quote for that, but I think it was in some WD or the other.

And now for something completely different. I think comparing 40k to real life situations is a pretty moot point at any rate, since GW obviously had to invent some rules for representing a battle - if you want a (somewhat) more realistic take on the 40k universe, try FFG's range of RPGs, where a lasgun has an accurate range of 100m and can shoot at up to 4 times as far (with reduced accuracy), whereas the average person can run about 15-20 meters in the time it takes to aim and fire said lasgun.
Again, not necesserily applicable to real life situations, but I think a large scale tabletop game necessarily has to sacrifice some accuracy to actually make it playable and not absurdly complex and long-winded.

On the actual topic of this thread: I'm amazed nobody has mentioned hellstrike missiles yet. I know the ordnance rule represents their superior ability to penetrate heavy armour, but hey, you fire one of them and apparently that throws the entire aircraft off course so badly they can't fire any other weapons (okay, snap shots now. Still...). It's a missile. Technically those things don't even have recoil, at least not on an aircraft (and yes, I am aware I'm using real life reasoning here, despite my former ravings ;))

Cheeslord
21-08-2012, 22:20
I don't get why a dreadknight, esentially a large dreadnought just with the pilot alive and bolted onto the outside, is an MC rather than a walker... The walker category was designed for walking machines. The Dreadnight is a walking machine. So why isn't it?

Cynical answer: Mattward saw that being an MC gave it MOR POWAR

Less cynical answer: To differentiate its playstyle from the dreadnoughts also present in the grey knights codex. To allow it to duke it out with MCs in proper "get away from her, you b***h!" style.

Mark.

BrotherCaptainS
22-08-2012, 02:43
Yeah I have a space wolf one that doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't all characters have access to the thunderwolf mount. I think it would be cool to have that done. at least wolf priests anyway. Also why is it that standard thundercav get 2 wounds but the mount doesn't add a wound to the characters. In particular the iron priest, whom I thnk should have 2 wounds anyway. we are space wolves we are supposed to have uber characters. Which I run a few, I just have an awesome conversion ide for iron priest but can't bring myself to do it because it becomes a 95 point 1 wound model with no invuln. That is not worth it. For the record I don't use wolves at all, its a home brew which is way cooler than wolves. just using they're rules.

Clarkson
22-08-2012, 03:31
Yeah I have a space wolf one that doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't all characters have access to the thunderwolf mount. I think it would be cool to have that done. at least wolf priests anyway. Also why is it that standard thundercav get 2 wounds but the mount doesn't add a wound to the characters. In particular the iron priest, whom I thnk should have 2 wounds anyway. we are space wolves we are supposed to have uber characters. Which I run a few, I just have an awesome conversion ide for iron priest but can't bring myself to do it because it becomes a 95 point 1 wound model with no invuln. That is not worth it. For the record I don't use wolves at all, its a home brew which is way cooler than wolves. just using they're rules.

whats worse it isnt an IC... so try survving more than a game turn

onidemon
22-08-2012, 04:27
I think you're looking at Grots wrong, if that's how you view them... They still work great as a soak-screen to throw out in front, provide cover...

Ha, no worries Grog, that was only a test - I love my grotz too, even if they're mostly old 2nd edition plastics. I was just curious if I compared Guardians to Grots, which would draw more people saying I just didn't know how to use the unit properly if I thought all they were good for was holding objectives.

Two people took umbrage that the humble Grot be discounted, while no one objected to this observation about the Eldar Guardian.

Moral lesson: at present, in 40k, Grots are better than Guardians. Or, at least better liked. :)

Chem-Dog
22-08-2012, 05:09
Another Blood Angels one here.
Sanguninary Guard, the greatest heroes of the Chapter, capable off fighting entire armies single handedly (blind too).
1 wound model, Ws4. :wtf:

It's high time 40K gave it's veterans 2 wounds as standard. Across all races and factions.

Clarkson
22-08-2012, 05:11
Ha, no worries Grog, that was only a test - I love my grotz too, even if they're mostly old 2nd edition plastics. I was just curious if I compared Guardians to Grots, which would draw more people saying I just didn't know how to use the unit properly if I thought all they were good for was holding objectives.

Two people took umbrage that the humble Grot be discounted, while no one objected to this observation about the Eldar Guardian.

Moral lesson: at present, in 40k, Grots are better than Guardians. Or, at least better liked. :)

30 grots with 3 runtherds are 60pts or 75 with grot prods.

guardians are 90 for 10 guardians w/o nothing added.. you can see why people like grots now?

Charistoph
22-08-2012, 05:19
Nobody expects much from a Grot, but one should expect something from a race that can live the equivalent of multiple lives.

Schismotive
22-08-2012, 07:46
The space marine rhino, meant for lightning fast space marine precision strikes and troop insertion missions, being a tank, when the IG hellhound, a heavy flamerthrower tank with a HUGE fuel tank being a fast vehicle, and having more armor. And also, how does a flame thrower shoot around corners...

MajorWesJanson
22-08-2012, 08:26
The space marine rhino, meant for lightning fast space marine precision strikes and troop insertion missions, being a tank, when the IG hellhound, a heavy flamerthrower tank with a HUGE fuel tank being a fast vehicle, and having more armor. And also, how does a flame thrower shoot around corners...

Actually, as a liquid, flamethrowers can splash around corners using deflection shots. The "torrent" style flame attacks are actually the most realistic, as you have a starting point and then sweep it from there.

igwarlord
22-08-2012, 08:30
And also, how does a flame thrower shoot around corners...

Because you are thinking movie flamer. In R/L a flamer will spray someone with a burning liquid
try blasting a water gun around a corner without someone on the other side seeing you. its actually pretty easy

Schismotive
22-08-2012, 10:32
Oh I'm sorry I didn't know the fire would turn at 90 degree angles around corners lol I've obviously never seen a not-movie flame thrower

Chivs
22-08-2012, 10:34
Dark Angels not being able to field squadrons of Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon landspeeders (instead treating the assault cannon as a one per squad upgrade) whilst Codex Chapters can. This was originally a Dark Angels only option (back in 2nd Ed Ultramarines and Blood Angels could only field Multimelta/Heavy Flamer landspeeders) called a Ravenwing Landspeeder!

Space Wolf Long Fangs being the only Space Marine unit in existence to have worked out that firing different guns at different targets is a good thing. It doesn't instill much confidence in Space Marine training if it apparently takes centuries of warfare to figure this out.

Belial's fluff containing a fight he lost with Ghazghkull Thraka on Piscina IV. If you're old enough to own the Storm of Vengeance Campaign pack, you'd know that Ghazghkull and Belial never met. It was Chaplain Uriel who Ghazghkull almost killed in his assault, but recovered in time to lead the defences at Koth Ridge. The Battle Briefings are very explicit that throughout Ghazghkull's part of the campaign, Belial was on board the Battle Barge Unrelenting Fury. Belial could have fought against Nazdreg at the Ork Landing site, but this is the only time in the entire campaign that the leaders could have met. I cannot emphasize how much this irritates me, as Jervis wrote both Storm of Vengeance and the Dark Angels codex, and so should have known better!

Zenithfleet
22-08-2012, 11:18
Belial's fluff containing a fight he lost with Ghazghkull Thraka on Piscina IV. If you're old enough to own the Storm of Vengeance Campaign pack, you'd know that Ghazghkull and Belial never met. It was Chaplain Uriel who Ghazghkull almost killed in his assault, but recovered in time to lead the defences at Koth Ridge. The Battle Briefings are very explicit that throughout Ghazghkull's part of the campaign, Belial was on board the Battle Barge Unrelenting Fury. Belial could have fought against Nazdreg at the Ork Landing site, but this is the only time in the entire campaign that the leaders could have met. I cannot emphasize how much this irritates me, as Jervis wrote both Storm of Vengeance and the Dark Angels codex, and so should have known better!

This is in the current Ork Codex too - it says Thraka and Belial fought a 'breathtaking duel' at Kallidus Harbour, in which Thraka practically snapped him in half.

The same thing seems to have happened to Yarrick and Ghazghkull. I thought they never met in person during the Second War for Armageddon - I remember it saying so specifically in 2nd ed, though I'm not sure where. But in the current Ork Codex, Ghazghkull personally hunts him down, 'eadbutts him and leaves him for dead (without actually bothering to finish him off). Which makes it a bit silly when Yarrick survives, because Ghazghkull later captures him on Golgotha and lets him live AGAIN. Once is interesting (he wants a good enemy to fight). Twice is just the writers playing silly buggers.

Pentregarth
22-08-2012, 13:32
Space Wolf Long Fangs being the only Space Marine unit in existence to have worked out that firing different guns at different targets is a good thing. It doesn't instill much confidence in Space Marine training if it apparently takes centuries of warfare to figure this out.

Make that the only unit in existence period. I'm okay with orks not being able to do it (precision control? DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!), and afaik Devastators are actually the most junior Space Marines other than scouts, so I suppose they are more reliant on their squad leader to direct all of them, instead of Long Fangs, who are the oldest Space Wolves and therefore able to divide their attention better.
But, rejoice! They added that rule as a USR to the main rulebook, so maybe that means more Units will have the option in the future...

Sai-Lauren
22-08-2012, 14:58
I think one of GW's lackeys once mentioned the ranges in the tabletop are not linear, but more or less exponential, so the 24" range of a lasgun represents more than 4 times the amount the guardsman carrying it can walk in a turn...I can't provide a quote for that, but I think it was in some WD or the other.

And now for something completely different. I think comparing 40k to real life situations is a pretty moot point at any rate, since GW obviously had to invent some rules for representing a battle - if you want a (somewhat) more realistic take on the 40k universe, try FFG's range of RPGs, where a lasgun has an accurate range of 100m and can shoot at up to 4 times as far (with reduced accuracy), whereas the average person can run about 15-20 meters in the time it takes to aim and fire said lasgun.
Again, not necesserily applicable to real life situations, but I think a large scale tabletop game necessarily has to sacrifice some accuracy to actually make it playable and not absurdly complex and long-winded.

Agreed - in 3rd edition WFB, they put some rationale into weapon ranges by saying that a Longbow could reach 300 yards, and at 1 inch = 10 yards, that gave them a range of 30", but since then, scale's kind of gone out of the window (the average battlefield drops to a square about a quarter of a mile to a side using those figures).

Basically, they traded off assault units being able to get across the battlefield in a decent timescale versus having to play on a football field for support units weapon ranges.

As for shouting that distance, in the middle of a battle, and making yourself understood - well, if you can do it, you're a better man than I. That's why until relatively recently (certainly the Napoleonic era), units had musicians, so that they could signal formation changes etc more easily in battle. And even then, that would only affect that unit, not the one next to them.

Doing all that without someone shooting you, and maintaining the security of your communications so the enemy can't react to what you're doing? Then you need comms.



Space Wolf Long Fangs being the only Space Marine unit in existence to have worked out that firing different guns at different targets is a good thing. It doesn't instill much confidence in Space Marine training if it apparently takes centuries of warfare to figure this out.
Make that the only unit in existence period. I'm okay with orks not being able to do it (precision control? DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!), and afaik Devastators are actually the most junior Space Marines other than scouts, so I suppose they are more reliant on their squad leader to direct all of them, instead of Long Fangs, who are the oldest Space Wolves and therefore able to divide their attention better.
But, rejoice! They added that rule as a USR to the main rulebook, so maybe that means more Units will have the option in the future...

That's not really a codex one, it's a rules set one that came in in 3rd edition, supposedly to speed the game up. Before then, theoretically, you could have every trooper in a unit shoot at a different unit (and in a last stand scenario, a surrounded unit would be firing in all directions, not just at the one in front of them).

But there's certainly no reason why units like Imperial Guard snipers and Eldar Dark Reapers couldn't have the same rule.

And if we are going on rules based ones as well, the Power Glove = Initiative 1 rule. Bob the Space Marine captain who's been fighting with one for decades is going to be quicker with it than Steve the newly raised Assault Marine sergeant, whilst Fred the Eldar Autarch with centuries of combat experience on all of them will be running rings around them with his Scorpions Claw.

Make it I-x, and I'd be perfectly happy.

Kozbot
22-08-2012, 15:01
First Eldar, the aspect warriors, what the hell.

You've got the phoenix lords, supposed lords of battle coming up with really awesome styles of fighting. Yet when it comes to giving out the gear they're less efficient than the backwards Imperium. I imagine that they got their supply requests mixed up, that's they only way I can explain why they have two different shooty jump pack guys, and two walking hand to hand guys. I mean really, in all the years Eldar have been fighting the Imperium not one of them have looked at assault marines and said "Hey, why don't we start equipping Banshees with jump packs? It's not like Swooping Hawks do anything useful anyways."

Or give the jump packs to fire dragons, they have to get close, swooping hawks not so much. Yet the dudes that got to get really close can only use a transport to get in there, then better run like the devil to get away. Also the whole shtick that Eldar are all about being at rock throwing distance for their guns to work. Generic marines, giant genetically engineered power armored beings of death who can survive short range fire fights quite well are much better at stand off distances than the far more fragile Eldar, especially guardians, who desperately need to stay out of hand to hand, lest they be turned into chunky salsa.

On to Space Wolves: Thunderwolf Riders. In the background power armor has always been the crucial ingredient that makes Space Marines so scary. The sheer amount of fire power they can absorb, especially in the fluff, is why they are the Angels of Death. So let's put them on a giant wolf. Ok, I can see the logic, riding a bike is cool, but riding a bike that can bite your opponents in half is cooler. So we put some armor on the wolf yes? You know, so it won't be blown to kibble by incoming fire? No? We don't? Because somehow the rider's armor protects the wolf too? What does he have bullet attracting magnets installed into his armor? Or conversely if Thunderwolves are so tough that their hide gives them protection equivalent to power armor, why bother with space marines? Why not just deploy armies of giant nigh-indestructible wolves?

The models look really cool (not the squirrel rider, but the new plastics) but I just can't get over the lack of armor on the wolves.

Charistoph
22-08-2012, 15:18
Make that the only unit in existence period. I'm okay with orks not being able to do it (precision control? DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!), and afaik Devastators are actually the most junior Space Marines other than scouts, so I suppose they are more reliant on their squad leader to direct all of them, instead of Long Fangs, who are the oldest Space Wolves and therefore able to divide their attention better.
But, rejoice! They added that rule as a USR to the main rulebook, so maybe that means more Units will have the option in the future...

Yes and no. Tau used to have an upgrade for that, until someone who doesn't know a Devilfish from a Piranha got their hands on the Amendments.

Haravikk
22-08-2012, 18:06
That's not really a codex one, it's a rules set one that came in in 3rd edition, supposedly to speed the game up. Before then, theoretically, you could have every trooper in a unit shoot at a different unit (and in a last stand scenario, a surrounded unit would be firing in all directions, not just at the one in front of them).
I can kind of understand why this was done to squads to keep things quick, but tanks as well? That was one is even worse, I was really disappointed that this wasn't changed in 6th edition as you have to wonder what the sponson gunner on the left is doing while the other weapons fire at someone slightly to the right… or does the one gunner now run back and forth between the two sponsons?


I've already railed on the Grey Knights, but I think one of the things I dislike most about their update is; why do Grey Knights have the monopoly on the inquisition? They're daemonhunters more than anything else; I can understand that their may be cause to work with other branches of the Inquisition from time to time, but in exactly the same way that any Imperial army may have cause to work with a branch of the Inquisition from time to time. I can understand that as a White Dwarf list Sisters of Battle didn't include Ordo Hereticus for the sake of space and simplicity, but they could just as easily have only include Ordo Malleus for Grey Knights and left the others for a White Dwarf issue once 6th hit. An Inquisitor allies mini-supplement would have been exactly the kind of thing White Dwarf needs to actually make it worth buying once in a while, and would let all Imperial forces join the fun without having to do weird Grey Knights allies setups even if they have no plan to take any Grey Knights.

GrogDaTyrant
22-08-2012, 21:05
30 grots with 3 runtherds are 60pts or 75 with grot prods.

guardians are 90 for 10 guardians w/o nothing added.. you can see why people like grots now?

Your math is a bit off. 30 Grots with mandatory 3 Runtherds are 120pts. 135 with 3 Grot Prods (I don't recommend them).

10 Guardians with no upgrades are 80pts.

Clarkson
22-08-2012, 23:17
Your math is a bit off. 30 Grots with mandatory 3 Runtherds are 120pts. 135 with 3 Grot Prods (I don't recommend them).

10 Guardians with no upgrades are 80pts.

still my point stands.. i;d rather a full on 30 grots than a kitted out guardians

TheMav80
22-08-2012, 23:55
Nobody expects much from a Grot, but one should expect something from a race that can live the equivalent of multiple lives.

Multiple lives as a poncy elf though. :P

Xerkics
23-08-2012, 00:21
Hey Grots are deadly. Just put that unit of grots in shooting range of a unit of terminators and see the sm player shake in horror as the grots rippp the termies a new one with them blasters of theirs.

OgreBattle
23-08-2012, 03:50
Make it I-x, and I'd be perfectly happy.

I'd like to see them as minus to weaponskill. They're 'clumsy' weapons, and a drop in WS is more fair across all armies (while initiative drops do nothing to Orks and is a stinker for Eldar).
"-2 to WS"
So yeah you can swing at s8, but you whack a guardsman on a 4+ and the Archon tumbles around it on a 5+.

The power axe can thus be "-1 to WS"



why bother with space marines? Why not just deploy armies of giant nigh-indestructible wolves?
and in return, the IG can fight with an army of nigh-indestructable weapons platforms.

wanderingblade
23-08-2012, 08:02
Personally, my kvetch about the Thunderwolf Riders would go like this -

They're Wolf Guard, right? That's what it says. They must be pretty ballsy Wolf Guard too, as their favourite pastime is to go out, capture and tame these really hardass wolves - so hard a Fearless Wolf Priest won't go near one - and then ride these wolves aka giant bullet magnets into battle. How much cojones does that take?

Well, apparently less than it does to be an average member of the Wolf Guard, when you compare their leadership scores. I suppose with the amount of plasma weaponry swilling around the average Wolf Guard unit these days, they might be onto something, but still...

NitrosOkay
23-08-2012, 09:52
Damn Chaos Marine icons.

OH NO JIMMY DROPPED OUR CHAOS STICK... UM WHICH GOD WERE WE WORSHIPPING AGAIN :(

And apparently this task was appointed to Jimmy and Jimmy alone. If he cannot carry it no one can.

Gertjan
23-08-2012, 11:58
Personally, my kvetch about the Thunderwolf Riders would go like this -

They're Wolf Guard, right? That's what it says. They must be pretty ballsy Wolf Guard too, as their favourite pastime is to go out, capture and tame these really hardass wolves - so hard a Fearless Wolf Priest won't go near one - and then ride these wolves aka giant bullet magnets into battle. How much cojones does that take?

Well, apparently less than it does to be an average member of the Wolf Guard, when you compare their leadership scores. I suppose with the amount of plasma weaponry swilling around the average Wolf Guard unit these days, they might be onto something, but still...

Exactly, they don't have the balls to wield plasma guns so they are the scared little wussies:D

Anyways, I know a lot of people will disagree with me here but I never really understood, and still don't, the inclusion of valkyries and vendetta's in the guard codex. They are part of the imperial navy, not the guard. All of a sudden what is supposed to be possibly the slowest, unwieldy, lumbering fighting force in the galaxy has become the best elite rapid response team that makes marines cry in their sleep. To me, that makes no sense at all. Guard pound their opponents into the dirt with artillery and massed infantry and tanks companies, not a few flying veterans who have mroe special weapons than marines and access to extremely good gunships...:shifty:

duffybear1988
23-08-2012, 12:37
You know what makes no sense at all? Power weapons (of all varieties).

For example my howling banshee walks up to a tactical marine and slashes her sword at him. The sword slices clean through the armour, like a hot knife through butter, but bounces off his skin because she is only strength 3 and he is toughness 4!?!?!

What the hell is that about?

Been playing for 20 years and still don't get that.

madden
23-08-2012, 13:10
Think of it like when you cut yourself with a scalple it's so fine you barely notice and marines heal real quick it's only when your banshees hit something vital that a wound is inflicked. As to no scence marines can deep strike in next to deamon icons(from deamon dex) but deamons can't use marine icons(unless from that dex). Or how about deamon units not having assault nades (save slannesh) but deamons aren't real and are made of warp stuff but can trip over a tree root etc rather than phase though obstacles.

Zenithfleet
23-08-2012, 14:38
You know what makes no sense at all? Power weapons (of all varieties).

For example my howling banshee walks up to a tactical marine and slashes her sword at him. The sword slices clean through the armour, like a hot knife through butter, but bounces off his skin because she is only strength 3 and he is toughness 4!?!?!

What the hell is that about?

Been playing for 20 years and still don't get that.

I guess you haven't been playing for long enough then, 'cos in 2nd edition, power weapons were at least Strength 5. :cool:

...Wait, hang on, 20 years? You were probably playing before me. Now I'm confused.

(Sorry to keep bringing it up, but I've just recently gone back to read the 2nd ed rules and am constantly surprised at how much more sense everything makes. Then again, heroic leaders of any description tended to be +1 on a lot of stats for no good reason... argh, I found a flaw! :eek: )

trigger
23-08-2012, 16:16
Wasn't a power sword only S4
Power axe being 5-7 all depending on use ?

wanderingblade
23-08-2012, 16:25
Exactly, they don't have the balls to wield plasma guns so they are the scared little wussies:D


But one of them can take a plasma pistol! Surely such an option should upgrade their leadership as well? :D

Still Standing
23-08-2012, 16:54
Anyways, I know a lot of people will disagree with me here but I never really understood, and still don't, the inclusion of valkyries and vendetta's in the guard codex. They are part of the imperial navy, not the guard. All of a sudden what is supposed to be possibly the slowest, unwieldy, lumbering fighting force in the galaxy has become the best elite rapid response team that makes marines cry in their sleep. To me, that makes no sense at all. Guard pound their opponents into the dirt with artillery and massed infantry and tanks companies, not a few flying veterans who have mroe special weapons than marines and access to extremely good gunships...:shifty:

SOME Imperial Guard pound their enemies to dust with long range artillery and trench warfare, such as the Death Korps of Krieg. Some make excellent use of combined arms and even huge tank formations, such as the Cadian Shocktroops. Some make excellent use of light infantry tactics, such as the Tallarn Desert raiders. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND some make excellent use of speed, stealth and huge amounts of aircraft for insertion and top cover, such as the Elysian Drop Troops. The Elysian Drop Troops were originally known as Dragon 99 Company, and were an Inquisitorial experiment in enhancing humans in order to combat Tyranids (IA Amphilian Project). Obviously their background has changed since then, but is it any wonder they have access to lots of advanced technology?

Lord Damocles
23-08-2012, 21:07
The Elysian Drop Troops were originally known as Dragon 99 Company, and were an Inquisitorial experiment in enhancing humans in order to combat Tyranids (IA Amphilian Project). Obviously their background has changed since then, but is it any wonder they have access to lots of advanced technology?
Imperial Armour 4 makes no mention of all Elysians being surgically enhanced - only the D-99 who were a single over-strength Compnay formed from the remnants of the 99th Regiment, and inducted into Inquitorial service (pg.130).

The previous appearances of the Elysians (White Dwarf 249 (UK), pgs.69-70 & White Dwarf 271 (UK), pgs.73-5) make no mention of any surgical enhancements.

OgreBattle
23-08-2012, 22:02
You know what makes no sense at all? Power weapons (of all varieties).

For example my howling banshee walks up to a tactical marine and slashes her sword at him. The sword slices clean through the armour, like a hot knife through butter, but bounces off his skin because she is only strength 3 and he is toughness 4!?!?!

What the hell is that about?

Been playing for 20 years and still don't get that.

It's like Witchblades slicing through a dreadnought and bouncing off flak armor.

It's just a result of the game mechanics.

If there was a unified 'defense' mechanic for toughness, armor, vehicle armor, it would begin to make sense (AP would just negate the defense bonus from certain unit types like 'heavy armor'. Melta negates defense points from 'tank', etc.)

Still Standing
23-08-2012, 22:09
Imperial Armour 4 makes no mention of all Elysians being surgically enhanced - only the D-99 who were a single over-strength Compnay formed from the remnants of the 99th Regiment, and inducted into Inquitorial service (pg.130).

The previous appearances of the Elysians (White Dwarf 249 (UK), pgs.69-70 & White Dwarf 271 (UK), pgs.73-5) make no mention of any surgical enhancements.

I was under the impression that Elysians (or at least the models) were specifically designed for IA4 and the Dragon 99 boys and girls.

Clarkson
24-08-2012, 00:20
I was under the impression that Elysians (or at least the models) were specifically designed for IA4 and the Dragon 99 boys and girls.

the models were.. but rules existed for them. albeit WD rules

Zenithfleet
24-08-2012, 04:05
Wasn't a power sword only S4
Power axe being 5-7 all depending on use ?

I had a flick through the old Wargear book, and it looks like all power weapons were S5 at least (swords, mauls, etc). A few were stronger (axes, fists).

Chainswords were S4 though.

As OgreBattle said--I've always found it bizarre that, since 3rd ed, prodding a Space Marine with a singing spear is a futile exercise, yet chucking it at the front of a tank tends to make it go boom. (Er, chucking the spear, that is. Not the Marine. Bad grammar is bad.)

Actually, while I'm talking 2nd ed, here's one that made no sense to me recently. I just managed to get hold of the original Sisters of Battle Codex. There's a special character in there called Saint Praxedes. She's a Canonness who not only bested a Hive Tyrant in close combat, but fought a guerilla warfare action against the invading swarms, causing widespread disruption and delay. Guerilla warfare. Against Tyranids.

Okay, yes, they soon lost contact with her and she became a martyr, and it was all to buy time for refugee ships to leave, but still... my eyebrows were somewhat elevated. :eyebrows:

Drasanil
24-08-2012, 04:10
Guerilla warfare. Against Tyranids.

Do you really need any more proof that she was a Saint? Not like many other people could have pulled it off :)

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 05:05
As far as my input to this thread goes i feel several units in the current chaos codex pull you right out of the game saying such things as "wait what....that sucks".

-icons as many have mentioned have gotten even worse with the new wound allocation rules. Not to mention the price for said icon doesn't change based on unit size so taking an icon in a 5 man squad in some cases is paying almost double the price for an effect. For 40 damn points a squad of those marines should have that 5+ until the last mans bolter rounds fall silent![QUOTE]

yup thousands of years worship for it all to be lost to a lucky shot (well in 5th, not got 6th yet...positioning the standard bearer at the back will mitigate this a little now)

[QUOTE=zippy_tang;6384687]-chaos spawn are like windup toys and i have never understood why they have a place in a strategic tabletop wargame. [QUOTE]

yup only useful for booooooneing enemies and replacing them currently (i know it's gift'o'chaos in my book, i just prefer the deamons name for it. much more fun to shout as you turn them into spawn :evilgrin:)

[QUOTE=zippy_tang;6384687]-chaos chosen have a weirdly restrictive set of options. plasma pistol or weapon.....why cant i have both on the same models?[QUOTE]
hmmn not really sure about this one, 5 of them can take specials/paired claws/powerweapons on top of the bolter bp(excepting mr paired claws natch)...unecessary whining methinks...no scout however is a bit odd, what with them having infiltrate too

[QUOTE=zippy_tang;6384687]last and not least ive always disliked the risk/reward/cost of psykers in the game in general. if these guys are such a risk over the more solid force commander style characters (psychic tests etc) then why make them cost the awfully over costed price in comparison. Their contributions to a game can be at times debatable and of course depending on the powers available to them can prove these points could have been spent elsewhere. Now there is some great psykers out there don't get me wrong but are they totally worth their price tag? Then again Im just a sore tzeench player hoping for some light with the new chaos codex on the horizon.

true, especially with their current lack of defense. ie forgetting how psychic hoods work, or how to fabricate them (or chaotic equivtech)
and as were onto wargear now lets look at that too:-
-iron halos, storm shields TH's (all pre heresy & should be commonplace, or maybe replaced by better chaotic equivalents...not to mention one of the HQ's STILL WEARS HIS huron i'm lookin' at you boy)
-upgunning rhinos, are we really expected to believe units like EC running around typically in 6's for sacred number loving reasons haven't seen those 6man razorbacks & said "hmmn wonder if we can fit a TL blastmaster to ours, we don't need those seats"
-drop pods mentioned in fluff but nowhere to be seen in the rules "but but but they're OUR TOYS, don't let them play too" (whiny techmarine)
-siegeshields not autopassing terrain tests for our vindies too (see above quote)
-distinct lack of rending/counterattack for the supposedly cc oriented zerkers
-oh and of course, not knowing how to refit any/all of the heavy vehicles to better fit certain battlefield applications (LR crusader & other types) or chaotic replacements for the demolisher cannon on the vindie etc
-forgetting that splitting up and outflanking that fortified position might be a good idea. i mean even the 20man csm unit can't split ffs (just because they no longer worship a corpse, they can't make a tactical battlefield decision....i thought their adherence to their old disciplines were what kept them from turning purely into possessed/spawn/princedom)
-bile having no inv save despite being head honcho of fiddling with genetics and drugs, even going as far as making pacts with DE homonculai too (5++ i believe they are). so at no point has he bartered for gear that helps him live longer to twist more nature to his will then hmmn? really :wtf:
-typhus not having EW too (just way too anti fluff, should be nigh on unkillable as he's nurgle's herald. however lucius is fine without as he enjoys possessing his erstwhile victorious duelling partners :evilgrin:)

my two cents

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 05:22
Yeah I have a space wolf one that doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't all characters have access to the thunderwolf mount. I think it would be cool to have that done. at least wolf priests anyway. Also why is it that standard thundercav get 2 wounds but the mount doesn't add a wound to the characters. In particular the iron priest, whom I thnk should have 2 wounds anyway. we are space wolves we are supposed to have uber characters. Which I run a few, I just have an awesome conversion ide for iron priest but can't bring myself to do it because it becomes a 95 point 1 wound model with no invuln. That is not worth it. For the record I don't use wolves at all, its a home brew which is way cooler than wolves. just using they're rules.

hmmn try paying 160 for an extra 2 wounds and poisoned shooting a la bile then
....oops, didn't realise he wasn't an IC...apples & oranges moment, sorry :rolleyes:

Pentregarth
24-08-2012, 11:46
Eh, Sly Marbo does it...that guy hunts lictors in his free time ^^ (paid time as well, but I think in his case, the distinction is moot)

A.T.
24-08-2012, 12:00
-iron halos, storm shields TH's (all pre heresy & should be commonplace, or maybe replaced by better chaotic equivalents...not to mention one of the HQ's STILL WEARS HIS huron i'm lookin' at you boy)Traditionally heresy era thunderhammers were dreadnought weaponry - they've been refined by the ad-mech since. Storm shields didn't exist except as experimental field generators on contemptor pattern dreadnoughts.

LR crusaders are also quite new (645.M39). More to the point, chaos space marines do not need to have everything from the vanilla codex plus their own 4-5 daemonic variants on every other weapon. I personally think it's a shame they get so much cross over instead of still using the old rapid fire plasma cannons, dreadnought thunderhammers, and so on. Hopefully reapers, havoks, and TL bolters don't also get lost in the update.

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 12:22
Traditionally heresy era thunderhammers were dreadnought weaponry - they've been refined by the ad-mech since. Storm shields didn't exist except as experimental field generators on contemptor pattern dreadnoughts.

LR crusaders are also quite new (645.M39). More to the point, chaos space marines do not need to have everything from the vanilla codex plus their own 4-5 daemonic variants on every other weapon. I personally think it's a shame they get so much cross over instead of still using the old rapid fire plasma cannons, dreadnought thunderhammers, and so on. Hopefully reapers, havoks, and TL bolters don't also get lost in the update.

fair enough if that is indeed the case, but i'm sure there's mention of personal TH's during the heresy...but remind me, how does that fit exactly with them eschewing new developments in the admech though, in favour of repeating the same patterns over & over hmmn? (use the sacred patterns ONLY or we'll send in the inquisition!) this is the reason plasma weaponry is supposedly 'rare' too isn't it. i could've sworn TH/SS's were ancient, but i'm happy to be pointed to sources stating otherwise. oh i notice no mention of the oddly non-functional halo behind huron's head though eh? too sticky a wicket maybe :eyebrows:
oh and the LR thing...just seems too odd that the daemon forge is stricter than the admech when it comes to mods don't you think? if anything there should be odder chaotic variants filling similar roles for me...but i'd take a few weapon ops if they're forthcoming instead and the tardis interiors thanks. :cheese:

A.T.
24-08-2012, 12:33
fair enough if that is indeed the case, but i'm sure there's mention of personal TH's during the heresy...but remind me, how does that fit exactly with them eschewing new developments in the admech though, in favour of repeating the same patterns over & over hmmn?It's the same thunderhammer, it's just smaller - power generation/storage mainly.

Ad-mech do make changes but very slowly, such as minor refinements to power armour. It's all basically the same stuff but they shrink things down, adjust armour profiles, rub more holy oil onto it, etc.

They aren't entirely adverse to combining technology either - the SoB immolator for instance was built from a rhino and a partial flame tank STC. The hellhound turret was built from the same STC when they managed to piece more of it together.

Likewise if they have a weapon that requires a vehicle-sized power source, but later find the STC for a backpack sized generator of the same power they may ultimately get around to using the two together - it's all valid STC sourced stuff after all, combination, not innovation. They mix weapons on tanks around all the time.



oh i notice no mention of the oddly non-functional halo behind huron's head though eh? too sticky a wicket maybe :eyebrows:Huron did have an iron halo (Imperial armour 9). Then he got hit by a meltagun.



edit : as for chaos using new technology, it goes against their style. Think of it like this - if you had a game with modern soldiers vs zombie nazis you'd want them running around with tiger tanks and panzerschrecks, not modern guns and tanks painted in wehrmacht colours.

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 12:47
erm but he's still wearing it even though it's been "melted" then? i wasn't referring to old lugft huron, but the 'modern' one man. oh and a reference was what i asked for, not your own personal distillation btw...sure sounds like conjecture to me on the immol/hellhound, unless you've a book&page ref to show me different :eyebrows:

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 12:56
edit : as for chaos using new technology, it goes against their style. Think of it like this - if you had a game with modern soldiers vs zombie nazis you'd want them running around with tiger tanks and panzerschrecks, not modern guns and tanks painted in wehrmacht colours.

again i request a book& page to confirm this "newness" after all isn't the fist of dorn a relic of the heresy?

A.T.
24-08-2012, 13:12
oh and a reference was what i asked for, not your own personal distillation btw...IA9, page 161 - he has a working Iron halo
CSM codex, page 57 - he no longer has a working iron halo.

It's speculation that getting half his face melted off broke it. Perhaps he put it in the washer. Perhaps it's just a piece of spikey armour.



sure sounds like conjecture to me on the immol/hellhound, unless you've a book&page ref to show me different :eyebrows:Page 46, Codex-Sisters of Battle 2nd edition.



again i request a book& page to confirm this "newness" after all isn't the fist of dorn a relic of the heresy?"The Dreadnought-mounted Thunder Hammer works in exactly the same way as the Thunder Hammers carried by Imperial Terminators. It is a testimony to the march of Imperial technology that Thunder Hammers have been reduced to a size which can be carried by a Space Marine, albeit a Terminator-armoured one." 2E Codex Chaos, p.79

El_Machinae
24-08-2012, 13:28
As OgreBattle said--I've always found it bizarre that, since 3rd ed, prodding a Space Marine with a singing spear is a futile exercise, yet chucking it at the front of a tank tends to make it go boom. (Er, chucking the spear, that is. Not the Marine. Bad grammar is bad.)


A thrown singing spear is able to enact full-field distortion effects that would make it suicidal to hold. When held, the spear re-contains and limits its dissonance and so is less effective as a melee weapon. Much like, if you were to engage in melee using a grenade as a club, it would be potentially deadly but not nearly as effectively lethal as when it's thrown and triggered.

Poseidal
24-08-2012, 13:29
The Space Marine codex has Pedro as an example of a chapter master who sensibly retreats instead of having a glorious last stand so his chapter survives in the longer term.

His rules remove the 'Marines retreat sensibly' combat tactics and replace with stubborn, meaning they are too proud to run and would rather fight in a last stand.

Ragnar69
24-08-2012, 13:42
"The Dreadnought-mounted Thunder Hammer works in exactly the same way as the Thunder Hammers carried by Imperial Terminators. It is a testimony to the march of Imperial technology that Thunder Hammers have been reduced to a size which can be carried by a Space Marine, albeit a Terminator-armoured one." 2E Codex Chaos, p.79

They have improved it even more in the meantime, nowadays even power-armored blokes can wield them...

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 13:51
IA9, page 161 - he has a working Iron halo
CSM codex, page 57 - he no longer has a working iron halo.

It's speculation that getting half his face melted off broke it. Perhaps he put it in the washer. Perhaps it's just a piece of spikey armour.


Page 46, Codex-Sisters of Battle 2nd edition.


"The Dreadnought-mounted Thunder Hammer works in exactly the same way as the Thunder Hammers carried by Imperial Terminators. It is a testimony to the march of Imperial technology that Thunder Hammers have been reduced to a size which can be carried by a Space Marine, albeit a Terminator-armoured one." 2E Codex Chaos, p.79

hmmn broken but still present? okaaay :wtf:
and yes i had read ia9, but it still makes no sense the item is now useless

sisters 2nd ed book, ok fair enough that explains the immolator..what about that hellhound (suppose i could bother djc as he's playing ig lately for that one though)

and the last one, yes it explains that it's a development...but as to not being present for pre-hersey termies, bit of a stretch/assumption to just draw a line and say "well it must be post heresy then" really

A.T.
24-08-2012, 14:00
sisters 2nd ed book, ok fair enough that explains the immolator..what about that hellhound (suppose i could bother djc as he's playing ig lately for that one though)The specific quote : "The only new designs to be culled from the ancient factory were some half-complete files detailing a flame-thrower tank. These were modified with existing Imperial technology to produce the Immolator now used by the Adepta Sororitas. Later on, the Adeptus Mechanicus also developed the more sophisticated Imperial Guard Hellhound from its finds but the source of its design has been kept secret from the Ecclesiarchy"

Kept from the ecclesiarchy as they had given the plans over on the condition of exclusive rights (the full background is a bit larger, relating to the Icaria crusade in the early 35th millennium)


Huron was hit by a meltagun - those little things used to melt bunkers. He's lucky there is as much left of him as there is, a broken Iron Halo was the least of his problems.

A better example of a missing forcefield would be Karamazov who has managed to lose his rosarius somewhere between the WH codex and the new GK book. Though I don't quite understand how a throne sitting atop a dreadnought chassis counts as an infantry model.

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 14:06
ok granted a melta to the face is pretty harsh, but it's still intact which is my point. they got his arm and a chunk of chest plus a teeny bite from his cheek (taking the eye with it) only, hence the tyrants claw and bionics. but then explain the lack of th/ss for his warband as they'e decidely post heresy (and aren't they supposed to barter tech between bands too?) or is it just a case of.......sig :eyebrows:

(edit) plus you've still not answered the question of the fist of dorn's age, not playing loyalist i'm a bit vague but wasn't it's original owner, oh i dunno..dorn himself in the heresy era?

A.T.
24-08-2012, 14:28
but then explain the lack of th/ss for his warband as they'e decidely post heresyLack of his warband in the chaos codex.
TH/SS terminators are available in the tyrant legion.


(edit) plus you've still not answered the question of the fist of dorn's ageDorn survived for some time after the heresy, though i'd assume the fist pre-dates that. Something from the dark age of technology or a one-off primarch made wonder weapon - keep in mind that one of Dorn's other weapons was spear that projected a warp vortex... who needs a hammer with that thing.

Poseidal
24-08-2012, 14:29
Wasn't one of the earliest artworks for Thunder Hammers a Chaos Terminator with one?

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 14:34
Lack of his warband in the chaos codex.
TH/SS terminators are available in the tyrant legion.

Dorn survived for some time after the heresy, though i'd assume the fist pre-dates that. Something from the dark age of technology or a one-off primarch made wonder weapon - keep in mind that one of Dorn's other weapons was spear that projected a warp vortex... who needs a hammer with that thing.

d'oh, i'd forgotten that in ia9! thanks for reminding me, but you just can't rock up to a pick up with fw stuff can you? oh and then terminator sized th/ss type tech was possible back then, the lack of it in the c:csm book has always been a deliberate nerf imho

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 14:41
Wasn't one of the earliest artworks for Thunder Hammers a Chaos Terminator with one?

ahh sanity at last, somewhere in the 2nd ed rulebook (although it's been many many years since last reading it for me) iirc

(edit) plus back then i played orks, just wanted to be able to afford csm too, mainly because of the punker blastmaster marines :p

A.T.
24-08-2012, 14:46
Wasn't one of the earliest artworks for Thunder Hammers a Chaos Terminator with one?A blood angel in both the 1991 compilation and 1989 space hulk stuff.
I think the 2nd edition wargear book did have a CSM terminator with one though ... been a while.

Note that even as far back as the 1991 rules compilation book (rogue trader) chaos space marines do not have the option to take thunder hammers.

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 14:46
lol oh & i'm loving your sig btw Poseidal :D

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 14:53
Note that even as far back as the 1991 rules compilation book (rogue trader) chaos space marines do not have the option to take thunder hammers.

yes ok, but for no real reason other than "loyalists need better gear because...well, just because" yet again :eyebrows:

Aluinn
24-08-2012, 14:54
Using GK: Inquisitors not having access to invulnerable saves (like, really, every backwoods Preacher gets a Rosarius but a fracking Inquisitor can't manage to get his hands on a 5++?) and certain Assassins not having Infiltrate. Both just plain make no sense at all.

To a lesser extent, the stats of Death Cult Assassins being what they are; it can be explained in the sense that they're within the range of what some human characters (and Officio Assassins) have had before, but being superior to Howling Banshees and the like somehow just seems kind of crazy; I6 at least is OTT and S4 just seems to have come out of the blue. Also, in the other direction, if they're that fast, shouldn't they have Fleet? As assassins, shouldn't they be sneaky and have Infiltrate? I realize that the latter two rules would make them fit poorly in mixed Henchmen units, but such considerations don't seem to have stopped Ward from doing other stuff with GK rules, and you can take a unit of nothing but DCA. Basically, of all the assassins in the book, only the Vindicare (though he has his own issues) and Callidus feel like they should, and the Vindicare is a bit OP whilst the Callidus is quite weak. While we're on this subject, I'll go ahead and add that the Culexus not having direct anti-psyker abilities, beyond being made stronger when around psykers, is really dumb.

Sometimes the Inquisition stuff in the book just feels slapped together at the last minute and a lot of it is really odd (and not only in either the traditional Wardian roll-on-a-table way, nor in the "whoa what a wacky ability that is!" way, though sometimes that too).

Still Standing
24-08-2012, 14:56
yes ok, but for no real reason other than "loyalists need better gear because...well, just because" yet again :eyebrows:

Loyalists need better gear because they don't have access to Daemons, cult troops, extra powerful heroes, super resilient vehicles, obliterators, and all the other stuff that goes with the Chaos books?

A.T.
24-08-2012, 15:02
yes ok, but for no real reason other than "loyalists need better gear because...well, just because" yet againI'd imagine the general reason was to make the two factions separate, rather than marines, and marines++

There were occasional exceptions. Chaos warlord titans in epic for instance got a free weapon tail.

smellyhippy
24-08-2012, 15:19
Loyalists need better gear because they don't have access to Daemons, cult troops, extra powerful heroes, super resilient vehicles, obliterators, and all the other stuff that goes with the Chaos books?

daemons:-dante dp stats
cult troops:-sternguard, vanguard, the ability to combat squad etc
extra poweful heroes:-what you mean like mephiston, dante, calgar, lord wolfymcwolf et al?
plus i'd swap you potms for possession in a heatbeat man
oblits:- fair enough man...they are damn flexible (my cult of destruction has 3x4:evilgrin:)

Still Standing
24-08-2012, 15:39
Daemons = Bloodletters etc. Yes, you can have them in your army, and for most of 40ks life you've been able to.
Cult Troops = Plague Marines. Nothing Marines have (except Grey Knights) is that powerful.
Extra Powerful heroes = Daemon Princes, 3.5 Ed Chaos Lords, 2ne Ed Abbadon.

You don't think the separation is anything new, do you?

Charistoph
24-08-2012, 18:53
Plague Marines are not currently powerful, just tough. Their firepower can be easily matched or exceeded by any Troop unit in the codex aside from Berzerkers. And their charges into Assault are lack luster, losing out to all the others in terms of effectiveness (with maybe the Thousand Sons being an exception). But man can they survive most of the crap that comes their way, and only the Thousand Sons can match, but not point by point.

Still Standing
24-08-2012, 20:43
Well my Plague Marines used to go toe to toe with 2x their number of regular Marines and come out without taking a casualty. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.

Charistoph
24-08-2012, 21:16
There is no doubt they are tough, and defensively, they are one of the most powerful Troops at this time. But when talking in general, they are meh on Offensive, which brings the combined force to good, but not most powerful. Especially with Draigo running around.

Still Standing
24-08-2012, 21:22
Well, 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol and powerfist is nothing to sneeze at offensively... Especially when they can withstand the overheats.

Charistoph
25-08-2012, 06:59
Well, 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol and powerfist is nothing to sneeze at offensively... Especially when they can withstand the overheats.

And there are how many Marine Troop units that can match or exceed it? That's why their offensive capabilities are just meh.

Mr Zoat
25-08-2012, 09:29
How about an imperial commissar executing an allied Magnus Calgar for failing a leadership test?

Something like this (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Macragge_heresy)

Still Standing
25-08-2012, 10:04
Something like this (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Macragge_heresy)

That's the best piece of 40k fluff I've ever read, official or otherwise. :)

TrojanWolf
25-08-2012, 10:04
Something like this (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Macragge_heresy)
That would have to be my favourite Space Marine themed story ever. :'D

A.T.
25-08-2012, 11:00
And there are how many Marine Troop units that can match or exceed it? That's why their offensive capabilities are just meh.In a squad of less than 10? None off the top of my head, unless you start using purifiers or loganwing.

2 special weapons in a squad of 5 troops isn't that common. Templars do get las/plas but no pistols/cc weapons in the same unit.

Spiney Norman
25-08-2012, 16:22
A thrown singing spear is able to enact full-field distortion effects that would make it suicidal to hold. When held, the spear re-contains and limits its dissonance and so is less effective as a melee weapon. Much like, if you were to engage in melee using a grenade as a club, it would be potentially deadly but not nearly as effectively lethal as when it's thrown and triggered.

I can't help but feel you're intentionally missing the point here.
Suppose you throw your singing spear at a tank, it cuts through the armour like cheese and goes boom, now throw your spear at a tactical marine, somehow power armour is as hard to penetrate with a singing spear as it is with a las round, so much for "full field distortion effects".

vladsimpaler
25-08-2012, 16:56
Daemons = Bloodletters etc. Yes, you can have them in your army, and for most of 40ks life you've been able to.
Cult Troops = Plague Marines. Nothing Marines have (except Grey Knights) is that powerful.
Extra Powerful heroes = Daemon Princes, 3.5 Ed Chaos Lords, 2ne Ed Abbadon.

You don't think the separation is anything new, do you?

Wow, going all the way back to 2nd edition? lmao, I'm like, lmao
And 3.5E Chaos Lords...

Your list is slowly falling apart. Daemon Princes are good but Mephiston and Draigo would absolutely annihilate one, plus their stats are pretty much the exact same except that Draigo has a 3+ invul and tons of psychic powers.

Bloodletters aren't that great now that they don't ignore Terminator armor. Plague Marines are pretty tough but Death Company comes very very close, and they're less expensive in points

El_Machinae
25-08-2012, 17:07
I can't help but feel you're intentionally missing the point here.
Suppose you throw your singing spear at a tank, it cuts through the armour like cheese and goes boom, now throw your spear at a tactical marine, somehow power armour is as hard to penetrate with a singing spear as it is with a las round, so much for "full field distortion effects".

Nope, not intentionally. I didn't think of its thrown effect upon power armor :)

A.T.
25-08-2012, 17:21
Daemon Princes are good but Mephiston and Draigo would absolutely annihilate one, plus their stats are pretty much the exact same except that Draigo has a 3+ invul and tons of psychic powers.
Plague Marines are pretty tough but Death Company comes very very close, and they're less expensive in points.You can get two winged princes for the cost of Draigo or Mephiston however.

Death company are a product of the 6th ed rule change where their main balancing factor - uncontrolled movement - has been replaced with extra attacks in close combat. And they are still not scoring troops.