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insectum7
19-08-2012, 21:08
There's a lot of mention about "flyers being the new meta", and how potentially overpowering they might be. There are reports of flyers being spammed for tournaments and Necron flyer lists in particular being used to terrorize opponents.

Now I myself haven't seen enough flyers in game to be convinced of this direction, but it occurs to me that there's already a solution to the problem. . . almost.

Where are the Flakk Missiles? It seems like there's a distinct possibility that flyers might have a few month run. But the moment a codex comes out with the ability to take Flakk missiles for missile launchers, depending on their availability, it might be all over for mass flyer lists.

Where are they going to show up first? If I had to guess is would be in the Chaos codex. Wouldn't it be something if they came out for Eldar and not the Imperium? Is it going to be a blanket release in White Dwarf?

Lord Damocles
19-08-2012, 21:10
Chaos Marines or Dark Angels (whichever comes sooner) seems the safe bet.


I'm not sure that Flakk missiles making an appearance will stop the supposedly awesome flyer spam lists though - half of the Codexes won't have access to them, and outside of Long Fang spam Space Wolves, most Marine armies don't tend to load up on Missile Launchers.

insectum7
19-08-2012, 21:24
If the DA Codex is strong enough, I could certainly see some codex hopping among marine players. Historically the DAs have never been strong on the go-to army chart in "marine-land", but the popularity of marines, coupled with an ability to get a much desired anti flyer capability, might be able to turn the tide against flyers in some hobby groups.

Thoth62
19-08-2012, 21:29
Or you would at least start seeing them used as allies among the imperial armies.

IcedAnimals
19-08-2012, 21:48
Which makes about as much sense as chaos worshiping the emperor. Dark Angels with allies. Bah.

Vaktathi
19-08-2012, 21:55
Flakk missiles will likely come as codex books get updated, dunno why GW corporate has a policy against errata, but they do.

That said, I don't think Flakk missiles will cut flyer lists down much. They'll likely only be available in sufficient quantity in stuff like Havoc squads, so if you wanted something other than quad missile launcher toting missile squads for your Heavy Support, that's going to be an issue, and even if available on other units, 1 flakk missile per squad isn't going to be *that* scary.

The other issue is that Flakk's are S7, meaning they're basically autocannons with half the RoF against what are usually AV 11/12 flyers with Jink saves. Were these ground vehicles it wouldn't be a problem, but mustering enough Flakk missiles may prove problematic for many lists. They'll be helpful for sure, but aren't going to eliminate flyer lists by any means.

BaloOrk
19-08-2012, 22:20
I think that it will come within a month or so, as errata/faq, and/or white dwarf updates.
Maybe new AA vehicles or vehicle upgrades, like that SM whirlwind variant, ork flakk-truck, eldar something.... etc

If they intend to introduce them through codexes, some will have to wait to 7 or 8th edition at current rate.

Death Company
19-08-2012, 22:28
I'd expect to see them in the Dark Angel codex, personally. As Chaos already has the "Dragon", which if the rumors are correct, is designed specifically to hunt enemy fliers.

Scribe of Khorne
19-08-2012, 22:51
Flakk's would sell new Havoc kits though. I would assume they will be in.

Dangersaurus
19-08-2012, 23:24
Flakk missiles will likely come as codex books get updated, dunno why GW corporate has a policy against errata, but they do.

That's paraphrased from Open Day right? I think it was just double-talk. There's no direct policy against errata, that can be seen from the FAQs. What there seems to be is a policy against errata that interferes with marketing. Giving updated cyclone rules to terminators? Sure, so long as it's outside the sales window of the new Marine(or SW/BA/GK) codex. Hydras with Interceptor and MLs with Flakk? Not until we're well past the "summer of fliers."

Private_SeeD
20-08-2012, 05:27
In my deathwing list I've been able to squeeze in a Mortis pattern Contemptor with dual auto cannons and cyclone missile launcher, it seems to be doing the trick


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

Beppo1234
20-08-2012, 10:36
I'm not expecting them any time soon, or AA: I think they'll keep it like this until they've met their sales projections for flyers. People will buy fliers, their opponents will have to buy fliers to defend against them. When time has passed (ie. when everyone who plays competitively has bought a flyer), they will then release AA.

making a rule to defend against fliers makes GW no money.

Ragnar69
20-08-2012, 11:03
I'm not expecting them any time soon, or AA: I think they'll keep it like this until they've met their sales projections for flyers. People will buy fliers, their opponents will have to buy fliers to defend against them. When time has passed (ie. when everyone who plays competitively has bought a flyer), they will then release AA.

making a rule to defend against fliers makes GW no money.
QFT. Flakk missiles will trickle slowly in with new codices, but I don't expect a general FAQ for the above reasons.

Bartali
20-08-2012, 12:53
Now I myself haven't seen enough flyers in game to be convinced of this direction, but it occurs to me that there's already a solution to the problem. . . almost.


There is already a solution... twin linking.

eg GK 6x Razorbacks, 3xPsyfile Dreads.
HB/Psybolts+Dreads do four AV11 flyer hull points a turn
AC/Psybolts+Dreds do five AV11 flyer hull points a turn

3 lots of Devs with 4 skyfire missiles each do four AV11 flyer hull points a turn.

Xerkics
20-08-2012, 16:35
YeS well not everyone has cheese like psyriflemen

PANZERBUNNY
20-08-2012, 17:14
It would make sense to add ammo variants to Auto Cannons and Missile launchers, even vehicle auto cannon and missile launchers to add more diversity, but I doubt that will happen.

daismith906
20-08-2012, 17:55
After being on the receiving end of a 6 flyer necron list I can confirm that flyers are the new meta

My quad cannon & vendetta didn't stand a chance especially when he rolled for all his reserved on turn two

Even if you are lucky and can pop one or two the troops can deploy 36" for the flyer then you have to concentrate on the ground troops leaving the remain flues to cause havoc

Maybe flak missiles will be an upgrade for all codexs who can use missile launchers when the new FAQ comes out

Chem-Dog
20-08-2012, 17:57
most Marine armies don't tend to load up on Missile Launchers.

However, I'd expect that to change if every Tactical squad were allowed a free Heavy Weapon (like Missile Launchers currently are) that can engage Flyers effectively in addition to any number of ground based Targets. Especially now that a penetrating hit isn't essential to taking a Vehicle out....


I can certainly see the Flakk Missile becoming the third standard ammo type associated with Missile Launchers and therefore popping up in any army that has access to such weapons.

PANZERBUNNY
20-08-2012, 20:20
I think they wanna see how much flyers will mess up the game and how people use them en masses before dropping in fixes.

Charistoph
20-08-2012, 20:45
Dark Angels will be the first Loyalist SM codex to have them. The start of the next month has the FAQs of all the other Chapters updated to match ala Storm Shields.

Dark Angels will then continue to complain that everyone else gets their toys.

Vaktathi
20-08-2012, 20:59
Another possible issue isn't necessarily so much the lack of AA guns, it's that they up-armored most of the flyers to make them functional as "skimmers" but didn't reduce the AV when they made them Flyers again. Under IA rules they were almost all AV10, a few were AV11 (like the Valkyrie, which used to be closer to 200pts after kit), only stuff like the Thunderhawk was AV12. When they're AV10, lost of non-AA guns are really useful against aircraft, stuff like heavy bolters, multilasers, heavy stubbers, etc. When they're mostly AV11 or AV12 with Jink, such weapons are not particularly useful.

The_Klobb_Maniac
20-08-2012, 21:07
I'm hoping to see a few things added via errata, or enough people running 5th's amassed lootas to help neutralize the potential spam. That said, I'd just arm yourself to be ready for the flyers if you're worried about them rather than cross your fingers.

@Vak
I think autocannon spam still covers it. IG with amassed Chims + ACs would probably be OK (even without Hydras) simply by weight of fire. You *know* they can cram a lot of efficient shots in when they work at it. Vendetta spam is probably the one to worry about; but even so they can only take on 3 targets per turn and if they slow down it's back to being easy pickings.

Vaktathi
20-08-2012, 21:24
The problem is that yes, while they can press in a ton of shots, those vehicles like Chimeras have about half the average lifespan of what they did before and often are some of the best targets for said flyers, and they're still not particularly spectacular at engaging the flyers. You need about 44 BS3 multilaser shots to kill an AV11 3HP flyer averaged between HP's and chance to outright kill, 66 if it's jinking. DE flyers might be afraid of it, but a Necron, BA/GK, or IG flying circus won't most likely, at least anything but the Hydras.

MajorWesJanson
21-08-2012, 06:02
Aegis Lines with quad Guns are making a major showing at my FLGS. They may not be enough to take on full flier spam, but they do a number on fliers thanks to interceptor and the number of shots they get. And the low price.

As for Flakk missiles, I can see them being handed out to encourage use of weaker units or less used units, like non-Space wolf Devastators, Havocs, maybe some Eldar missile launcher toting units.

Bartali
21-08-2012, 08:21
YeS well not everyone has cheese like psyriflemen

If only other codexes had other AA options such as guns with re-rolls either via twin linked or Prescience, or even had fliers of their own. Or even an allies system where you could take units from other codexes

Vaktathi
21-08-2012, 08:28
If only other codexes had other AA options such as guns with re-rolls either via twin linked or Prescience, or even had fliers of their own. Or even an allies system where you could take units from other codexes
To be fair, not all of them can do it with mobile nigh-unstunnable S8 48" gun platforms, and the allies rules aren't exactly even-handed in availability of AA capable allies. :p

Bartali
21-08-2012, 12:31
^^^^ It's not just the Rifledreads, in my original post it was also the 6 Razorbacks with twin-linked guns. Certainly I don't feel as though any Imperial list is in dire need of Flakk missiles at the moment

Israfael
21-08-2012, 20:33
It will most likely be Chaos, followed by Dark Angels getting them, followed by a FAQ for wargear standardization; as it was with stormshields.

I hope so, anyways. One less reason for other Astartes players to use my factions book.

Cheeslord
21-08-2012, 22:07
Another possible issue isn't necessarily so much the lack of AA guns, it's that they up-armored most of the flyers to make them functional as "skimmers" but didn't reduce the AV when they made them Flyers again. Under IA rules they were almost all AV10, a few were AV11 (like the Valkyrie, which used to be closer to 200pts after kit), only stuff like the Thunderhawk was AV12. When they're AV10, lost of non-AA guns are really useful against aircraft, stuff like heavy bolters, multilasers, heavy stubbers, etc. When they're mostly AV11 or AV12 with Jink, such weapons are not particularly useful.

QFT. I'm thinking mostly of the Guard codex here with cheap heavily armed and multi-role squadronable AV12 fliers. Making them fliers in apocalypse for no extra cost was ruinous brain-death in the first place, but easy enough to ignore since apocalypse is a mass of crazy balance issues even by GW usual standards. Now they've copied this over into normal games however (well at least we don't also have to add 12" to the range, but still...) I see doom and ruin.

Mark.

ReveredChaplainDrake
22-08-2012, 05:03
Remember how long it took Dark Angels and Black Templars to get the same Storm Shields that Mat Ward's pet chapters got? About three years. Basically the span of the entire edition. Expect many a DA bandwagoner between now and then. Besides, people are going to be using Dark Angels anyway for the Deathwing-as-1st-Company list. Players have been doing that old song and dance for decades, and genuinely effective missiles are likely just icing on the cake.

Chem-Dog
22-08-2012, 05:18
Besides, people are going to be using Dark Angels anyway for the Deathwing-as-1st-Company list. Players have been doing that old song and dance for decades

I see that as a legitimate proxy. Terminator armies are cool, mustering the first for a serious mission is also cool.
In the absence of any other way of running a 1st Co army without just pretending those Tactical squads are sternguard or buying into the GK codex, it's fine.

I even heard of one player, many moons ago, who was at least planning to build a "Deffwing" all Meganob army using the Deathwing rules to enable it as a legit army.

Bartali
23-08-2012, 12:16
Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

Ragnar69
23-08-2012, 13:12
Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

WTF? Then I woulnd't miss them when GW woulnd't update them in the other marines erratas :rolleyes:

Max_Killfactor
23-08-2012, 15:21
If the DA Codex is strong enough, I could certainly see some codex hopping among marine players. Historically the DAs have never been strong on the go-to army chart in "marine-land", but the popularity of marines, coupled with an ability to get a much desired anti flyer capability, might be able to turn the tide against flyers in some hobby groups.

Yup. Green will be the new Grey most likely

Caitsidhe
23-08-2012, 16:15
In fairness, you can get the Flakk Missiles right now if you want to buy (or build your own) Fortification. The upgrade is available for 30pts.

althathir
23-08-2012, 16:39
I think that it will come within a month or so, as errata/faq, and/or white dwarf updates.
Maybe new AA vehicles or vehicle upgrades, like that SM whirlwind variant, ork flakk-truck, eldar something.... etc

If they intend to introduce them through codexes, some will have to wait to 7 or 8th edition at current rate.

Yeah, I tend to think we'll see new faqs with the starter or by games-day.


I'm not expecting them any time soon, or AA: I think they'll keep it like this until they've met their sales projections for flyers. People will buy fliers, their opponents will have to buy fliers to defend against them. When time has passed (ie. when everyone who plays competitively has bought a flyer), they will then release AA.

making a rule to defend against fliers makes GW no money.

I think the biggest offenders Vendettas, Ravens, and the cron fliers really won't care if flakk become wide spread. Vendettas & ravens are av 12, and Crons can fit in a ton of fliers. Also adding a skyfire upgrade to the whirlwind would move that tank, so I doubt a faq would negatively affect sales, it'd just help some players out abit.


The problem is that yes, while they can press in a ton of shots, those vehicles like Chimeras have about half the average lifespan of what they did before and often are some of the best targets for said flyers, and they're still not particularly spectacular at engaging the flyers. You need about 44 BS3 multilaser shots to kill an AV11 3HP flyer averaged between HP's and chance to outright kill, 66 if it's jinking. DE flyers might be afraid of it, but a Necron, BA/GK, or IG flying circus won't most likely, at least anything but the Hydras.

Chimeras have enough good reasons to use them that being a poor AA option shouldn't be the end of world. The IG codex right now has more answers for fliers than anyone.


Rumours from Faeit212 for the DA codex suggest Skyfire missiles will be a 5pt per model upgrade to Missile Launchers, but you'll have to loose Frag and Krak Missiles (and thus hit ground targets on sixes).

It's looking more and more like twin linking is the way to go for any ground to air shooting

If thats the case, fliers will dominate for a while. That said Faeit212 is a good site, but its more a site that reports rumours than an actual source. SO you have to have some salt ready (which Naftka typically points out, I have the site favorited)

Voss
23-08-2012, 16:45
They have to get more fliers out and sold before they nerf them down to the ground with widely available countermeasures.

At least, that is what my cynical side says.

But remember not every special rule has to be thrust out in the game immediately. There are still special rules in Fantasy 8th that haven't seen the light of day in Army Books yet.

althathir
23-08-2012, 16:49
There are widely available countermeasures and then there are flakk missiles which aren't the greatest by a long shot. I expect to see them soon, cause fighting fire with fire is still a better a solution.

Vaktathi
23-08-2012, 16:51
Chimeras have enough good reasons to use them that being a poor AA option shouldn't be the end of world. The IG codex right now has more answers for fliers than anyone.I'd agree about the latter point without argument, however as for Chimeras usefulness in 6th, the changes to both vehicle and passenger scoring/contesting and the whole HP system make them rather awkward, though that's an issue for another thread. However, while IG do have more answers for flyers than anyone else, they still often have to tailor themselves to some degree to deal with more than a couple of flyers.

Dangersaurus
23-08-2012, 17:16
That said Faeit212 is a good site, but its more a site that reports rumours than an actual source. SO you have to have some salt ready (which Naftka typically points out, I have the site favorited)
The best thing about his blog is that he provides a level of insulation to the rumormongers from the frothing rumor stalkers. Conversation after the fact is usually more interesting here though.



In fairness, you can get the Flakk Missiles right now if you want to buy (or build your own) Fortification. The upgrade is available for 30pts.

Am I missing an option in my rulebook?

PANZERBUNNY
23-08-2012, 18:43
Holy crap, that's a neuter for missile launchers if you want to take Flakk. That's terrible.

To be honest, against ground targets, if you can use Flakk, it should ignore cover. A giant burst of shrapnel has that sort of effect. Even more so than frag grenades/missiles.

I could see taking away frags to convert your launcher into an anti vehicle platform, Flakk/Krak, but both?

althathir
23-08-2012, 18:44
The best thing about his blog is that he provides a level of insulation to the rumormongers from the frothing rumor stalkers. Conversation after the fact is usually more interesting here though.

Am I missing an option in my rulebook?

I agree, and they tend to be interesting to read about whether they're true or not. Its just the site is an area where rumours are reported and I think people are assuming Naftka is the source cause the attribute the rumours to faeit212 which is misleading.

Don't think so i'm curious about that as well. I think he is thinking of the missiles on the fortress of redemption.

Lostprophet217
23-08-2012, 18:56
Fortress of Redemption comes with an Icarus lascannon, the Missile silos are ordnance / barrage.

Vaktathi
23-08-2012, 18:59
Holy crap, that's a neuter for missile launchers if you want to take Flakk. That's terrible.

To be honest, against ground targets, if you can use Flakk, it should ignore cover. A giant burst of shrapnel has that sort of effect. Even more so than frag grenades/missiles.Generally AA missiles that operate like that have a directed burst, they don't just explode over or amongst something and rain down shrapnel, they act like a shotgun more than anything.



I could see taking away frags to convert your launcher into an anti vehicle platform, Flakk/Krak, but both?It would appear GW wants Flyers to remain very capable if this turns out be be true, making AA platforms expensive and inflexible.

Caitsidhe
23-08-2012, 19:02
Fortress of Redemption comes with an Icarus lascannon, the Missile silos are ordnance / barrage.

For 30pts you can upgrade to having the option for standard Flakk Missiles. EDIT: Nevermind. :) My bad... I read too quick. Not Flakk.... Krakstorm Missiles. Wishful thinking on my part. The Aegis remains the only good option.

Aluinn
23-08-2012, 19:35
If DA get this option the errata will probably be updated to give it to all Imperial missile launchers, much like 3++ storm shields were extended across codexes (that one took a while in some cases, but I'd hope they'll be quicker about it this time).

As for the viability, my conclusion is that you just can't please some people. If you want an answer to fliers, it's probably going to be a dedicated answer, much like the answers to extremely heavy armor (both 2+ saves and AV13-14 vehicles, in 6th)--asking for krak and flakk missiles on the same weapon is a bit like asking for meltaguns to be able to be fired as flamers; this game asks you to make choices with strong implications on the way your army functions all the time. The choice to take a dedicated anti-air missile launcher unit is no different. (It will be a bit overpriced for standard Marines, but this is due to their Devastators being overpriced in general, not the 5-point asking price being ridiculous.)

The Vendetta will remain a problem, though. Needless to say, it needs a fix badly; AV12 and more HP than most fliers for the cost it's at (never mind the weapons) is plainly stupid, and if most AA weapons are going to be S7, other fliers will remain the only really efficient way to deal with multiple Vendettas beyond simply not taking vehicles (though to be fair, that is a totally viable option in 6th, and probably something more people should be experimenting with IMO). But this is nothing new; it's been OP since the latest IG codex release and continues to be so. Effective anti-air weapons will make it roughly as OP as it was in 5th, or only slightly more so, at least. It can only truly be brought into line by a 50-70-point increase in cost, and since GW does not do online-errata points cost adjustments, this means it will be dumb until the next IG codex release, which is probably a long way away.

As a side note I believe the rumored release list also has some kind of Ork flakk gun trukk listed. This at least may have Skyfire and Interceptor (i.e. be able to fire effectively at ground targets), based on the quad-gun and probable similarities between the types of weapons, but it will be probably also be very fragile and overpriced vis-a-vis the likes of Lootas if not being used against fliers.

As for people mentioning vehicle spam (Psyflemen, Razorspam) as viable approaches ... are you sure you're playing 6th Ed. yet? This is just not viable anymore, except perhaps against a list so completely invested in fliers that it has little else going for it. It will fold to any infantry-based list with decent ranged anti-tank. People seem to be gravitating towards extreme army builds, but 6th has begun to set up a rock/paper/scissors system; it just isn't entirely in place because the flier thing was implemented badly in the sense that the flier rules were back-compatible but there was no similar retro addition of anti-flier weapons beyond Fortifications. Once this is corrected, balanced lists will probably be most desirable for competition, which is the purpose of such a system--i.e. you don't want to bring Rock to a tournament because you might face Paper, so you avoid spammy/one-trick-pony stuff. It works fairly well in Fantasy which has a similar setup with enormous infantry blocks/deathstars, magic-heavy builds, and armies with larger numbers of units. The result has been that armies tend to feature all of these elements, e.g. strong magic, but with efficient investment, a few large blocks/power units, and supporting small units/chaff.

Bartali
23-08-2012, 23:14
As for people mentioning vehicle spam (Psyflemen, Razorspam) as viable approaches ... are you sure you're playing 6th Ed. yet? This is just not viable anymore, except perhaps against a list so completely invested in fliers that it has little else going for it. It will fold to any infantry-based list with decent ranged anti-tank. People seem to be gravitating towards extreme army builds, but 6th has begun to set up a rock/paper/scissors system; it just isn't entirely in place because the flier thing was implemented badly in the sense that the flier rules were back-compatible but there was no similar retro addition of anti-flier weapons beyond Fortifications. Once this is corrected, balanced lists will probably be most desirable for competition, which is the purpose of such a system--i.e. you don't want to bring Rock to a tournament because you might face Paper, so you avoid spammy/one-trick-pony stuff. It works fairly well in Fantasy which has a similar setup with enormous infantry blocks/deathstars, magic-heavy builds, and armies with larger numbers of units. The result has been that armies tend to feature all of these elements, e.g. strong magic, but with efficient investment, a few large blocks/power units, and supporting small units/chaff.

I'm sorry, but you strike me as someone who's read that vehicles have Hull points, ignored cover saves are 5+ and thought omg vehicles are rubbish now.

1500pts. GK.
Inquisitor
6x 5 Strikes w/ Psycannon; Razorback w/ Assault Cannon, Psybolts.
2x Dreads w/ Autocannons and Psybolts.

Bearing in mind that the majority of missions are objective based, show me a balanced all comers infantry list that this would fold too. Not beat mind, fold too.

Vaktathi
23-08-2012, 23:27
I'm sorry, but you strike me as someone who's read that vehicles have Hull points, ignored cover saves are 5+ and thought omg vehicles are rubbish now.

1500pts. GK.
Inquisitor
6x 5 Strikes w/ Psycannon; Razorback w/ Assault Cannon, Psybolts.
2x Dreads w/ Autocannons and Psybolts.

Bearing in mind that the majority of missions are objective based, show me a balanced all comers infantry list that this would fold too. Not beat mind, fold too.

Just about any IG infantry gunline is going to eat that army alive, even with cover you'll probably lose most of the transports in the first round of shooting unless you can stay completely hidden. It's not at all impossible to pack in say, 30something autocannons, some meltaguns, and probably triple the number of scoring units in 1500pts. You won't be able to engage in CC until turn 3 in most missions, by which point you'll likely have lost all the transports and likely at least one dread and a dozen marines on average by the time you can get stuck in, at which point you're also in perfect double-tap (or FRFSRF triple-tap) range of a ton of lasguns as well.

Bartali
24-08-2012, 09:04
Just about any IG infantry gunline is going to eat that army alive, even with cover you'll probably lose most of the transports in the first round of shooting unless you can stay completely hidden.

You've not done a list, so I've done one for you.

CCS w/ Autocannon
PCS w/ Autocannon
2x Infantry Squads w/ Autocannon
5x HWT w/ Autocannon
PCS w/ Autocannon
2x Infantry Squads w/ Autocannon
5x HWT w/ Autocannon
PCS w/ Autocannon
2x Infantry Squads w/ Autocannon
2x HWT w/ Autocannon

Not at all a balanced all comers list, and will probably have difficulty dealing with objective missions. So, an extreme of Autocannons list if you will, with 46 Autocannons in total.

So how long does it take for those 46 Autocannons to strip 18 AV11 hull points and 6 AV12 hull points in cover ? Four turns.

By contrast, the GK list has 8x TL S8, 24x TL S7, 12x S7 (moving psycannons), 48x S4. This does 34 GEQ wounds (in cover) per turn.

So, is an IG gunline going to eat that army alive ? Am I going to loose all my transports in the first round of shooting ? No.

Vaktathi
24-08-2012, 09:26
You're intentionally overloading on the heavy weapon squads, unnecessary.


CCS, 4x meltas

PCS, 3x meltas 1x flamer
IS, AC
IS, AC
IS, AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC

PCS, 3x meltas 1x flamer
IS, AC
IS, AC
IS, AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC

PCS, 3x meltas 1x flamer
IS, AC
IS, AC
IS, AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC
HWT, 3x AC

A perhaps unimaginative and stale list, but capable of taking all comers and not too far from lists I've seen played several times in the last few weeks (one off the top of my head had a couple lascannons and some hydras instead quite as many HW squads but otherwise very similar IIRC).


Now, on the first turn, assuming all vehicles have a 5+ cover save, on average it's inflicting 12 HP's and at least 1 "explodes" result against the transports, so on average 4-5 of them are gone off the bat. Assuming a couple of the heavy weapons units and perhaps and infantry squad or two go bye-bye between TL'd snapshots from fast-advancing transports and the dreads, next turn (still assuming 5+ cover on all vehicles), another 3 vehicles die on average between HP loss and Explodes results and that's just from the autocannons. The actual GK infantry aren't likely to get stuck in before turn 3 at the earliest at that point assuming the IG army isn't set up at the forward edge of its deployment zone, so there's another round of fire on any remaining vehicles and the advancing infantry which are likely to be in FRFSRF lasgun spam range as well at that point and every turn thereafter.


Also, addressing this point with your list, assuming cover on everything all the time for all the vehicles, 18 AV11 HP's requires an average of 108 shots and the two AV12 vehicles an average of 54 shots, so a total of 164 shots on average. There's 46 autocannons there firing a total of 92 shots each turn. By the end of the 2nd turn of firing all those vehicles should be dead, at worst during the 3rd turn, not by the end of the 4th turn unless something went *VERY* wrong, even accounting for some casualties. That's of course not accounting for potential insta-kill results, which by the end of turn 2 they should have inflicted an average of 2 or 3. On the first turn, accounting for cover, if concentrating on the transports, they should all be dead, with at least 1 explodes result and an average of 15.33 HP's inflicted between 92 BS3 autocannon shots, leaving several dozen autocannons free to engage the remaining two vehicles and the assorted infantry in the following turns.

Aluinn
24-08-2012, 10:23
I'm sorry, but you strike me as someone who's read that vehicles have Hull points, ignored cover saves are 5+ and thought omg vehicles are rubbish now.

1500pts. GK.
Inquisitor
6x 5 Strikes w/ Psycannon; Razorback w/ Assault Cannon, Psybolts.
2x Dreads w/ Autocannons and Psybolts.

Bearing in mind that the majority of missions are objective based, show me a balanced all comers infantry list that this would fold too. Not beat mind, fold too.

I don't think that vehicles are rubbish now, but I do think that non-flying AV11-12 spam is rubbish now. If it performs well (and of course it can, but so can any build, given the right conditions), it's probably because the opponent is using either a 5th Ed. list (i.e. one where there is plenty of anti-tank in theory, but it's anti-tank designed to produce small numbers of penetrating hits, not large numbers of glances, and probably focused on melta, which will indeed produce near-5th-Ed. results and be inadequate against vehicle spam in itself, not to mention exposing the units using it), or has taken what they think is a 6th Ed. list but is really one that lacks anti-tank altogether, or has changed comp but not changed anti-tank approaches and still focuses on melta or what have you, eschewing large numbers of S6-8 shots in favor of the near-guaranteed 1-2 dead vehicles in a turn, which if course isn't enough against spam (and that's why vehicle spam dominated 5th).

Against a list with plenty of infantry, only a few, hard-to-kill vehicles or none at all, and tons of S6-8, long-ish-range shots, mechspam will just fold. For one thing, it essentially gives up a VP in any scenario before the game begins, because the opponent is almost certain to get first blood by wrecking a Rhino/Razorback/Chimera, and for another, yes, HP hurt badly enough that it can be fully de-meched, or close enough, so soon that the transports will have been no real benefit to the units in them. Finally, they lost most of their utility as late-game objective-grabbers if they manage to survive.

There are good vehicles in 6th beyond flyers, IMO. Russes surely got better, and in general heavy armor (FA 13+) designed for shooting seems to remain pretty viable (or medium-armored Skimmers, esp. if Fast or able to fire as though Fast, e.g. Falcons and Prisms), but the sweet spot seems to be ~3-5 such vehicles depending on points, from what I've seen so far. They're expensive (compared to transports) and non-scoring even in Big Guns, so too many will compromise an army's ability to beat anyone with plentiful, resilient scoring units.

(DE may also be able to continue to get away with spamming vehicles, but they are very cheap considering their perma-cover, and also have respectable guns of their own that can fire while the vehicles move and maintain their 5+ saves, so I see them as somewhat unique in this regard, at least for now; we'll have to see what happens with CWE in their new book, but as it stands I don't think a Wave-Serpent-based army is very strong, in spite of the vehicles remaining somewhat resilient, because Serpents are just too overpriced and HP hurt everything to some extent.)

Daedalus81
24-08-2012, 13:18
Isn't there a new whirlwind missile upgrade coming with skyfire and interceptor? I saw it poking around the rumor section, but I can't recall exactly where now.

Poseidal
24-08-2012, 13:24
In principle, any Las based weapon should be far superior as an anti-air weapon than bullet based due to having a far faster travel time; the only issue is Range due to the beam dissipating, but a Lascannon designed for anti-vehicle already equals or outranges the similar sized projectile weaponry for it's effective range so this is probably not a factor in 40k. The next best would be guided or seeking missiles, but I think the missiles commonly used in 40k are dumb-fired, and only Tau have them.

hobojebus
24-08-2012, 15:08
Theres a forgeworld whirlwind in the latest book with antiair missiles maybe your thinking of that?

Also there are now 35 point automated missile arrays for space marines.

MagicHat
24-08-2012, 15:48
Theres a forgeworld whirlwind in the latest book with antiair missiles maybe your thinking of that?


The Hyperios whirlwind is rumoured to be in the DA book with skyfire, interceptor and a twinlinked krak missile.


Also there are now 35 point automated missile arrays for space marines.

What are you talking about?

Vaktathi
24-08-2012, 15:58
FW Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Lots of new flyers and more importantly AA units.