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Jagosaja
21-08-2012, 21:56
A strange situation occurred to me and my friend the other day. I had a Vampire with Quickblood and Great Weapon, he had a Dark Elf Lord with ASF banner in the unit. Now, since my Vampire had ASF and ASL rules, he strikes by initiative. BUT since he retains ASF rule nevertheless, he also strikes at the same time with the Dark Elf Lord which also has ASF. Had it been that the Dark Elf Lord didn't have ASF, he would have the precedence in striking and would have gone before me due to his higher initiative value. In other words, with ASF he would strike later than without ASF.

Am I playing this right? If I am, this sounds just wrong.

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2012, 22:03
Quickblood grants ASF.
A greatweapon grants ASL.
If you have both, you fight at your initiative value.
So the vampire fights at in7 (or whatever it is).

The ASF banner simply grants ASF.
So he strikes first.

When the two fight, the vampire fights at in7 while the dreadlord fights with ASF and generates re-rolls if he has in7+(which he has).

That's how it works.
You are confusing yourself and thinking (wrongly) that the vampires ASF somehow affects the Dreadlords ASF.

dementian
22-08-2012, 04:33
I think he is thinking that he retains the ASF effect of striking first...with the ASL GW...*boggle*

Blkc57
22-08-2012, 04:52
When you lose the ASF due to the ASL from the GW you don't keep any remenant of the special rule effects from ASF, so no rerolls and no protection from other ASF fighters. So don't go around hugging enemy bat swarms or licking random Thundertusks,... and especially don't go around putting a GW on your ASF character, unless your a high elf then swing away (Speed of Asuryan nonsense, yay!)

T10
22-08-2012, 06:03
Now, since my Vampire had ASF and ASL rules, he strikes by initiative. BUT since he retains ASF rule nevertheless, he also strikes at the same time with the Dark Elf Lord which also has ASF.

The (main) purpose of ASF and ASL is to directly affect the order in which the models attack: The model is moved up or down to that absolute
position in the Initiative order:


Who strikes first?
(Impact hits)
Always Strike First
Initiative 10
Initiative 9
...
Initiative 1
Always Strike Last (Great Weapons, Stomp Attacks)


If multiple models have ASF then their attacks are simultaneous because they both attack "first".

-T10

MyNameDidntFit
22-08-2012, 12:10
Actually, models that both have ASF strike at Initiative.

In the OP's case, the Dark Elf strikes first as he has ASF and the Vampire doesn't and so strikes at Initiative.

Artiee
22-08-2012, 12:17
Actually, models that both have ASF strike at Initiative.



BRB pg 66. "ALWAYS STRIKES FIRST" 2nd para, last sentence.

Attacks are made simultaneous and neither gets the rerolls.

Duke_of_Krondor
22-08-2012, 12:32
One of the easiest ways to look at it is having ASF and ASL as initiative steps (like T10 has shown). If both people have (functional) ASF rules then you strike simutaneously regardless of initiative (and without rerolls).

If you are striking in the ASF step against an opponent who is not striking in the ASF step and your initiative is greater than or equal to theirs, then you gain rerolls to hit. ASL cancels out the effects of ASF therefore, when in combat, you are not effected by either rule.

Think of it as an initiative step and it is easier to work out (T10's list is good for that).

Yowzo
22-08-2012, 12:50
Actually, models that both have ASF strike at Initiative.

Nope, both ASF vs ASF and ASL vs ASL strike simultaneously. Initiative doesn't come to play.

MyNameDidntFit
22-08-2012, 12:55
BRB pg 66. "ALWAYS STRIKES FIRST" 2nd para, last sentence.

Attacks are made simultaneous and neither gets the rerolls.

Well there you go. Turns out I've been playing wrong.

Marmaduc
22-08-2012, 14:53
Nope, both ASF vs ASF and ASL vs ASL strike simultaneously. Initiative doesn't come to play.

Now I'm confused. Isn't this irrelevant to this case posted by the OP? The Vampire had Quickblood and a Great Weapon, the Elf had ASF. If I remember correctly under the rules for Always Strikes Last in the BRB it states something like "if a model with ASF acquires ASL then it will strike in normal initiative order", so in the case of the OP's question the Elf would strike first. Please let me know if I am mis-remembering. It seems that if the use of the GW makes no difference to the ASF rule then there would be no benefit to the Speed of Asuryan.

Jagosaja
22-08-2012, 20:27
So, basically what you are saying is that since the guy with ASF and great weapon will strike on initiative, he does not have ASF anymore? I believe he still does have it, no matter that he also has ASL, since the rule still exists in his profile. The fact that ASF combined with ASL gives different effects to "naked" ASF does not change the fact that he still has the rule. So when it meets another model with ASF, they will strike at the same time since the rule ASF vs ASF will kick in for the other model.

If you are right, and that the model with just ASF will strike before the model with ASF and ASL, it can only happen if ASF does not exist on the other model anymore. If it does not exist anymore, than I can, say, use ASF from corpse cart and make him have ASF again, since there will be no multiples of ASF on him. Do you see where I am going?

What I am really asking is if one model has ASF, and other has ASF and ASL, does the rule ASF vs ASF still work? Just remember that by having ASF and ASL does not mean that he loses any of those rules, he has both, and in ASF vs ASF having ASL really does not matter.

theunwantedbeing
22-08-2012, 20:32
What I am really asking is if one model has ASF, and other has ASF and ASL, does the rule ASF vs ASF still work? Just remember that by having ASF and ASL does not mean that he loses any of those rules, he has both, and in ASF vs ASF having ASL really does not matter.

The vamp has ASF(quickblood), he also has ASL(great weapon)
He can be given ASF(corpsecart) however this will change nothing.
Only a single instance of a special rule applies at any give time.

So he will fight in inititative order in close combat.
ASF + ASL = Inititative order
You can't add another ASF to this as there is already an instance of ASF.

The elf fighting him has ASF
As the vamp is fighting at inititative order and not with ASF the rules do not interact with each other.

So no, the elf does not fight at the same time as the vamp, he fights at ASF.

Morax
22-08-2012, 20:45
The (main) purpose of ASF and ASL is to directly affect the order in which the models attack: The model is moved up or down to that absolute
position in the Initiative order:


Who strikes first?
(Impact hits)
Always Strike First (Dark Elf under the effects of ASF)
Initiative 10
Initiative 9
Initiative 8
Initiative 7 (Vampire Lord under the effects of ASF and ASL)
...
Initiative 1
Always Strike Last (Great Weapons, Stomp Attacks)


If multiple models have ASF then their attacks are simultaneous because they both attack "first".

-T10

First, follow this chart. Second, refer to the rules of ASL. It states in the rules of ASL, if the model also has the rule for ASF, the two are cancelled out and the model strikes at Initiative. So your model has the ASF rule (quickblood). Your model also has the ASL rule (great weapon). The two are cancelled out and so you strike at initiative (7 on a vampire lord). His model has ASF (banner of ASF). His model would strike at that point in the order.

Yowzo
23-08-2012, 07:12
Now I'm confused. Isn't this irrelevant to this case posted by the OP? The Vampire had Quickblood and a Great Weapon, the Elf had ASF. If I remember correctly under the rules for Always Strikes Last in the BRB it states something like "if a model with ASF acquires ASL then it will strike in normal initiative order", so in the case of the OP's question the Elf would strike first. Please let me know if I am mis-remembering. It seems that if the use of the GW makes no difference to the ASF rule then there would be no benefit to the Speed of Asuryan.

I was answering to someone who stated that two models fighting with ASF would go on initiative order, which isn't true: they'll strike simultaneously.

Using a GW with some form of ASF rule will make you strike on initiative order _except_ for HE Speed of Asuryan which was FAQ'd they would just ignore ASL from the weapon and be just ASF.

T10
23-08-2012, 13:20
The OP was confused since the rules for ASF and ASL seem to require that a model with ASF strikes first, but also at the same time as other models with ASF, even if these models must strike in their Initiative order due to also having ASL.

The misconception is that ASF somehow has a magnetic effect that draws other ASF models to that Initiative count.

-T10

Jagosaja
23-08-2012, 15:07
No, I am not confused. The thing is we have the rule that states that if a model with ASF (the model with the ASF rule in his profile, no matter the source), meets another model with ASF (same conditions) they will strike simultaneously, regardless of their initiative value. The fact that some model has ASF and ASL does not change the fact that it will still have that ASF rule, so when a model with ASF and ASL meets a model with ASL, they strike simultaneously, regardless that the other model has ASL, as ASL in no way impedes the rule ASF vs ASF, and no "when a model has ASF and ASL he strikes on initiative" has anything to do with this.

True, this is surely not RAI, but I am trying to see what part of this is not RAW. Please show me where ASF vs ASF is denied by ASL.

MyNameDidntFit
23-08-2012, 15:22
Pg. 66, Always Strikes Last:
"If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

Underlining is mine. Should make it clear.

Blkc57
23-08-2012, 16:13
As we have tried to point out OP, the effect does not apply from ASF, other ASF fighters are not forced to strike at your init and will continue to strike first and benefit from rerolls if equal or higher init to you. You only have the ASF rule in name only since no other effects are considered.

T10
23-08-2012, 16:34
No, I am not confused.

You seem plenty confused to me. You are reading too much into the part of the rules that deals with models striking simultaneously because they are all striking first. I cannot spell things out more clearly without also insulting your intelligence.

-T10

Morax
23-08-2012, 16:42
The fact that some model has ASF and ASL does not change the fact that it will still have that ASF rule, so when a model with ASF and ASL meets a model with ASL, they strike simultaneously, regardless that the other model has ASL, as ASL in no way impedes the rule ASF vs ASF, and no "when a model has ASF and ASL he strikes on initiative" has anything to do with this.


This is the part where you are confused. Yes the rule does change the fact. You are counted as not having the ASF rule if you also have the ASL rule. See below.


Pg. 66, Always Strikes Last:
"If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

Underlining is mine. Should make it clear.

If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

Underlining is his. Should make it clear.

Cancel out and neither apply means that you are no longer affected by either. I quoted it and copied it just to have it there a second time. That is the Rule, written in the book that stops your ASF in your profile from working.

Jagosaja
23-08-2012, 18:53
You seem plenty confused to me. You are reading too much into the part of the rules that deals with models striking simultaneously because they are all striking first. I cannot spell things out more clearly without also insulting your intelligence.

-T10

Being rude does not make you correct.

Let me present you with a different situation. Our vampire hero buddy meets in combat another vampire hero with nightshroud. Will our buddy strike last? please read below.

One way is to say no, since you cannot have multiples of ASF or ASL on a single model. That means he had to have ASL on him for it not to stack. This in turn means he also had to have ASF. Please refer to the page 66 of the rulebook, Always Strike First, third paragraph: if the model with this rule (ASF) is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule. So, I basically don't give a damn if he also has ASL or whatever the hell he wants, as long as they both have ASF rule (or call it ability) in their profile they will strike simultaneously. This is not an interpretation, this is the rule from the rulebook. Please read it again.

The other way is to say yes, the ASF and ASL have cancelled each other and neither applies, so when ASL from Nightshroud kicks in he will have ASL. This solution opens a debate on Speed of Asuryan, and I don't want to go that way.

I believe these rules cannot stack, which brings me to the solution one.

The reasoning that a model which strikes on initiative will strike after a model with ASF is not in question, it is the purpose of ASF after all. On that I agree. But I claim that a model with ASF and ASL is not a model with neither but with both, and the rule on ASF vs ASF claims they will strike simultaneously, it just happens to be on initiative of the model with ASF and ASL.

theunwantedbeing
23-08-2012, 19:16
Let me present you with a different situation. Our vampire hero buddy meets in combat another vampire hero with nightshroud. Will our buddy strike last? please read below.

ASF vamp with ASL great weapon fights in initiative order normally.
When he is faced with an enemy that causes him to have the ASL rule, nothing changes.
He fights in initiative order due to his ASF special rule and the fact that you cannot benefit/suffer from multiples of the same special rule (unless the rule says otherwise).

With regards to the Speed of Asuryan thing.
The elf gets to ignore ASL from his great weapon, however he does not get to ignore ASL from another source.
So he fights in initiative order as ASF + ASL = fight in initiative order.

It's really very simple.

Sheena Easton
23-08-2012, 19:55
One way is to say no, since you cannot have multiples of ASF or ASL on a single model. That means he had to have ASL on him for it not to stack. This in turn means he also had to have ASF. Please refer to the page 66 of the rulebook, Always Strike First, third paragraph: if the model with this rule (ASF) is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule. So, I basically don't give a damn if he also has ASL or whatever the hell he wants, as long as they both have ASF rule (or call it ability) in their profile they will strike simultaneously. This is not an interpretation, this is the rule from the rulebook. Please read it again.

The same rule book also states that if a model has ASF and ASL (such as a Great Weapon) they cancel each other out, meaning it fights at its given Initiative step without rerolls. If you cannot grasp the concept, replace ASF with (+X) and ASL with (-X) then do some simple Maths:

(+X) + (-X) = 0
therefore an ASL Great Weapon and ASF Ability means strike at normal Initiative (with no other benefits).

If your Vampire had a Halberd / Additional Hand Weapon / Sword Of Magical Wotsit or any other weapon that didn't give it ASL, then you would be correct.

Blkc57
23-08-2012, 20:50
When a British recording artist thats sung with Prince tells you your wrong, I think its a safe bet you've made a mistake in your reasoning Jagosaja. You seem to be hung up on the fact that the ASF tag stays for the purposes of preventing you from stacking multiple of the same rule (which is true), but you can't seem to grasp that the rest of the rule goes out the window when its effects are canceled by ASL.

RanaldLoec
23-08-2012, 21:18
The key to this issue is reading ability.

Or lack there of more to the point

Pg Pg. 66, Always Strikes Last:
"If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

Your not arguing with us your arguing with the written word.

AntaresCD
23-08-2012, 21:21
Let's try another way to see if this makes sense for you. All the relevant rules have been quoted and the FAQ makes it clear that you cannot have ASF or ASL multiple times. So here are the situations:

1) Your model has neither ASF nor ASL. It will strike at Initiative.
2) Your model has 1 or more instances of ASF and no instances of ASL.
2a) If its target is not striking at the ASF step (ie is not in group 2 of this list), it strikes at the ASF step and gets rerolls if its Iniative is equal or higher to the target's.
2b) If its target is striking at the ASF step, it then strikes simultaneously with its target and neither get rerolls from ASF, regardless of Initiative values.
3) Your model has no instances of ASF and 1 or more instances of ASL. It will strike at the ASL step.
4) Your model has 1 or more instances of ASF and 1 or more instances of ASL. The model is treated exactly the same as option 1 of this list. The "extra" isntances os ASF and ASL do not stack in any way and ASL specifically tells you that ASF and ASL cancel; in other words, the model is treated as though it has neither rule when it comes to the order of combat, ie. it strikes at Initiative and does not hamper opponent's rerolls if they happen to have ASF.

I will reiterate, ASF covers what to do with ASF in combat against targets with ASF and without ASF. ASL covers what to do in combat if you have ASL and specifically states that having both ASF and ASL causes the rules to negate each other. The FAQ addition of non-additivity of Special Rules closes any loophole arguments on have 2+ instances of ASF or ASL causing that rule to reign.

True, a properly cross-referencing rule set would have ASL mentioned in the ASF description, but it would technically be redundant, since if you have both rules you'd need to read both descriptions, so the overlap only needs to appear in the text of one of them.

Process flow:
1) Do you have one or more instance of ASF?
-Yes, go to step 2.
-No, go to step 3.
2) Do you have one or more instance of ASL?
-Yes, go to result I.
-No, go to result F.
3) Do you have one or more instance of ASL?
-Yes, go to result L.
-No, go to result I.

F) You strike at the ASF step, with all the perks that implies!
I) You strike in normal combat order (i.e. at Initiative). An opponent striking at the ASF step may get rerolls against you if its Initiative is equal or greater than yours.
L) You strike at the ASL step.

I can't make it any clearer than that other than to write out the full text of the relevant rules and how you properly cross-reference them.

P.S. For others following along who are wondering how SoA affects this, it's simple, pretend the ASL from the GW does not exist, then process as normal.

jindianajonz
23-08-2012, 21:55
First off, I think this whole discussion is stupid, and it is very clear how GW intends to have things play out. That being said, due to poor writing, I think the OP has a rather valid point.

First off, let me repeat the two scenarios above, with arbitrary units for clarity.

Scenario 1) An Ogre has ASF and ASL, and a High Elf has ASF.
Scenario 2) An Ogre has ASF and ASL, and a Vampire has the Night Shroud (gives opponent ASL).

Now, the question at hand is what does it mean to have ASL and ASF cancel eachother out? One interpretation is that the model retains both abilities, but the effects of each are canceled out. In other words, the Ogre still has ASL and ASF; they just don't do anything because they are present on the same model.

Under this interpretation, Scenario 2 results in the Ogre striking at initiative against the Vampire, because he cannot have ASL twice. However, the exact wording on ASF is (and I quote somebody above for this):
"if the model with this rule (ASF) is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."
Well, the Ogre HAS ASF, it's just not giving off an effect due to ASL. Reading as Written, this interpretation of the rules means that the Ogre would strike at the same time as the High Elf.

A second interpretation of the rule says that "canceling out" means that the character loses both abilities; i.e. he neither ASF or ASL anymore. This solves the first situation, since the High Elf clearly has ASF but the Ogre clearly doesn't. But in the second situation the Vampire would be able to give the Ogre ASL a second time, since he no longer has it.

Now, unless we have somehow stumbled across Schrodinger's Ogre, this Ogre cannot both have and not have ASL and ASF at the same time. That is really the root of this problem. As far as I can tell, you gotta either accept one interpretation or the other. The ramifications of this are so minimal, however, that I've pretty much bored myself at this point. I thus end this post no longer caring.

AntaresCD
23-08-2012, 22:08
First off, any number of ASFs condense down to just one instance because you cannot have multiples. Same goes for ASL.

When you have both ASF and ASL the "effect" of both rules is to negate the other. That's it. Pretend they aren't there. It's like +1 + -1. You have both the bonus and the penalty but the net effect is 0 as though you had neither. It does not negate their existance, it negates any effect so things are as though they do not exist.

For the specific situations:
1) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The HE has ASF and therefore strikes at ASF step and gets rerolls if its Initiative is equal or higher.
2) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The Vamp gives the Ogre ASL; this does nothing as the Ogre does in fact have ASL on its current profile atm and you can't have 2 copies of that Special Rule. The Ogre still strikes at Initiative.

There are two important things here:
1) Having multiple instances of ASF (or ASL) does nothing as you cannot, in fact, have more than one of those Special Rules. So an "extra" ASF (or ASL) is ignored.
2) The effect of having both ASF and ASL on your profile is that neither one takes effect. Yes you have both, but they are negated, see the example at the top of 0 vs. +1 + -1.

Jagosaja
23-08-2012, 22:29
Now, the question at hand is what does it mean to have ASL and ASF cancel eachother out? One interpretation is that the model retains both abilities, but the effects of each are canceled out. In other words, the Ogre still has ASL and ASF; they just don't do anything because they are present on the same model.

...

A second interpretation of the rule says that "canceling out" means that the character loses both abilities; i.e. he neither ASF or ASL anymore. This solves the first situation, since the High Elf clearly has ASF but the Ogre clearly doesn't. But in the second situation the Vampire would be able to give the Ogre ASL a second time, since he no longer has it.

THIS!!!

Is it really that hard for you guys to see?




I will reiterate, ASF covers what to do with ASF in combat against targets with ASF and without ASF. ASL covers what to do in combat if you have ASL and specifically states that having both ASF and ASL causes the rules to negate each other. The FAQ addition of non-additivity of Special Rules closes any loophole arguments on have 2+ instances of ASF or ASL causing that rule to reign.

Refering to what was previously quoted, if you cannot give ASF or ASL to a model since a model cannot have 2+ instances the given rule, it surely means it already has one. If it already has ASF, it can refer to the ASF vs ASF rule. I am not saying that due to this rule the model with both ASF and ASL will strike first - it will strike at initiative, but the model with only ASF will have to strike at that time as well due to ASF vs ASF rule.




For the specific situations:
1) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The HE has ASF and therefore strikes at ASF step and gets rerolls if its Initiative is equal or higher.
2) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The Vamp gives the Ogre ASL; this does nothing as the Ogre does in fact have ASL on its current profile atm and you can't have 2 copies of that Special Rule. The Ogre still strikes at Initiative.

So, you say that in case one they cancel out and Ogre CANNOT use his ASF for ASF vs ASF rule, but in case two they cancel out as well but he CAN use his ASL when saying he cannot have 2 copies of the same rule. This is not following the rules, this is using them to your favor. Either they cancel out and they are not there so you cannot use either ASF or ASL in any case, or they are still there and you must use them in both cases.

All the time you are trying to explain the obvious to me, that having ASF and ASL will result in neither taking effect. But I am questioning something entirely different.

AntaresCD
23-08-2012, 22:44
Refering to what was previously quoted, if you cannot give ASF or ASL to a model since a model cannot have 2+ instances the given rule, it surely means it already has one. If it already has ASF, it can refer to the ASF vs ASF rule. I am not saying that due to this rule the model with both ASF and ASL will strike first - it will strike at initiative, but the model with only ASF will have to strike at that time as well due to ASF vs ASF rule.

<snip>

So, you say that in case one they cancel out and Ogre CANNOT use his ASF for ASF vs ASF rule, but in case two they cancel out as well but he CAN use his ASL when saying he cannot have 2 copies of the same rule. This is not following the rules, this is using them to your favor. Either they cancel out and they are not there sou you cannot use either ASF or ASL in any case, or they are still there and you must use them in both cases.

Did you not read everything I wrote? There is a fundamental difference between something existing and having an effect.

When you have both ASF and ASL, you have both rules. You cannot get more copies, as was previously mentioned. Now here is the important part: You have both rules, but neither take effect!

Let's address the "inconsistency.":
1) What happens when you try to give a model a second instance of ASF or ASL? You look at it's profile, if it has ASF or ASL on it currently then nothing happens, it already has the rule. That's it. It's a simple is it there already or not. It's like when you walk into the room and you want the lights on: you turn the lightswitch on. What happens if the switch is already on? Nothing, because it's already on!
2) ASF and ASL are negating each other. Does that mean you have both rules? Yes. Does that mean you derive any effects from those rules? No. So when an opponent is attacking you that has ASF, he's looking to see is you have ASF in effect.

These are two very, very important distinctions. I understand your confusion, but that's how it works. You can have something on your profile that is "there" but is treated as though it's not.

Look at my example of +1 + -1 vs. 0. It works in a similar fashion. The net effect is 0, but the +1 and the -1 are there. An outside observer sees 0, the person in question still has +1 and -1.

I doubt there is anything more that myself or the others who have tried can say here. The rules have been quoted and explained as well as the clear meaning of the terms and phrases used. You are allowed to have your opinion, just don't be surprised if the vast majority of players disagree with you and give you funny looks at the table if you try to do this. If anything else, there are a few years of precedent behind it.

Jagosaja
23-08-2012, 22:55
2) ASF and ASL are negating each other. Does that mean you have both rules? Yes. Does that mean you derive any effects from those rules? No. So when an opponent is attacking you that has ASF, he's looking to see is you have ASF in effect.


I understand you and the logic behind this, but yours is an interpretation. The ASF vs ASF rule does not say the ASF has to be active, it states if both models have ASF they will strike simultaneously. It is INTENDED for both models to truly have ASF, as you said, in effect, but is written that need to have the rule. If it is there, by RAW it is not relevant if it is in effect or not, it is there for both models and the rule kicks in. The intention becomes obvious if the model with only ASF has higher initiative than the other guy, since without it will strike before the other guy, but it must follow ASF vs ASF and it strikes at the same time.

Blkc57
23-08-2012, 23:16
First off, I think this whole discussion is stupid, and it is very clear how GW intends to have things play out. That being said, due to poor writing, I think the OP has a rather valid point.

First off, let me repeat the two scenarios above, with arbitrary units for clarity.

Scenario 1) An Ogre has ASF and ASL, and a High Elf has ASF.
Scenario 2) An Ogre has ASF and ASL, and a Vampire has the Night Shroud (gives opponent ASL).

Now, the question at hand is what does it mean to have ASL and ASF cancel eachother out? One interpretation is that the model retains both abilities, but the effects of each are canceled out. In other words, the Ogre still has ASL and ASF; they just don't do anything because they are present on the same model.

Under this interpretation, Scenario 2 results in the Ogre striking at initiative against the Vampire, because he cannot have ASL twice. However, the exact wording on ASF is (and I quote somebody above for this):
"if the model with this rule (ASF) is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."
Well, the Ogre HAS ASF, it's just not giving off an effect due to ASL. Reading as Written, this interpretation of the rules means that the Ogre would strike at the same time as the High Elf.

A second interpretation of the rule says that "canceling out" means that the character loses both abilities; i.e. he neither ASF or ASL anymore. This solves the first situation, since the High Elf clearly has ASF but the Ogre clearly doesn't. But in the second situation the Vampire would be able to give the Ogre ASL a second time, since he no longer has it.

Now, unless we have somehow stumbled across Schrodinger's Ogre, this Ogre cannot both have and not have ASL and ASF at the same time. That is really the root of this problem. As far as I can tell, you gotta either accept one interpretation or the other. The ramifications of this are so minimal, however, that I've pretty much bored myself at this point. I thus end this post no longer caring.

Now I'll be the first to claim that GW writes clunky rules, but in this case it seems rather plain what happens. I can't fault them for what seems to be an inability to grasp that while a special ability is granted it has no effect. There is no Shrodingers cat issue here, because while the model has received ASF and ASL their rules due not take effect (They are cancelled out you might say), and since you can only receive ASF and ASL once any further application is not applied.

Lets do an analogy to sort this out for you . Imagine that ASF is like a delicious cookie and ASL is a nasty stale cookie. You may only draw one of each cookie from any cookie jar, ever. If you happen to be holding both cookies at the same time, then you throw both of them on the ground and get to eat neither. Now if someone else comes along with another cookie jar (say another source of ASL or ASF) you still do not get to draw another cookie has you have already taken your cookies for the day earlier. Niether does this prevent that dark elf over there from enjoying his delicious cookie right in front of you. Now you can not simply pick a piece of the cookie up off the ground (trying to take part of the ASF rule that you strike at the same time as other ASF characters) and nibble on it as that would be gross.

I hope this helps and if you'll excuse me now I am walking over to the bakery to buy myself some cookies

AntaresCD
23-08-2012, 23:22
I understand you and the logic behind this, but yours is an interpretation. The ASF vs ASF rule does not say the ASF has to be active, it states if both models have ASF they will strike simultaneously. It is INTENDED for both models to truly have ASF, as you said, in effect, but is written that need to have the rule. If it is there, by RAW it is not relevant if it is in effect or not, it is there for both models and the rule kicks in. The intention becomes obvious if the model with only ASF has higher initiative than the other guy, since without it will strike before the other guy, but it must follow ASF vs ASF and it strikes at the same time.
At this point I'm probably just feeding, but you realise that by your statement here you just said that if a model has both ASF and ASL that instead of stirking at Initiative, as is stated in ASL, that he would strike at ASF because the other model has ASF...

Does this not sound even a little ridiculous to you?

The point of ASF is you always "go first" and you get a bonus if you would have been first anyway. You can't have two people "go first," that's a conflict which they resolve by going simultaneously. Likewise, two people cannot both "go last" so they go at the same time. Further you cannot both "go first" and "go last" (unless you are alone, which is not relevant here) so they cancel out and you just go like normal. That is an accurate summary of ASF and ASL. Nothing in the ASF + ASL sentence gets you back to "going first" when the other guy "goes first" because the "going last" you also have drags you out of any possible conflict of you both trying to "go first" since you are, in fact, not trying to "go first" anymore!

jindianajonz
24-08-2012, 00:10
First off, any number of ASFs condense down to just one instance because you cannot have multiples. Same goes for ASL.

When you have both ASF and ASL the "effect" of both rules is to negate the other. That's it. Pretend they aren't there. It's like +1 + -1. You have both the bonus and the penalty but the net effect is 0 as though you had neither. It does not negate their existance, it negates any effect so things are as though they do not exist.

For the specific situations:
1) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The HE has ASF and therefore strikes at ASF step and gets rerolls if its Initiative is equal or higher.
2) Ogre has both ASF and ASL, they cancel so the Ogre goes at Initiative. The Vamp gives the Ogre ASL; this does nothing as the Ogre does in fact have ASL on its current profile atm and you can't have 2 copies of that Special Rule. The Ogre still strikes at Initiative.

There are two important things here:
1) Having multiple instances of ASF (or ASL) does nothing as you cannot, in fact, have more than one of those Special Rules. So an "extra" ASF (or ASL) is ignored.
2) The effect of having both ASF and ASL on your profile is that neither one takes effect. Yes you have both, but they are negated, see the example at the top of 0 vs. +1 + -1.

Antares,
I totally agree with you that this is how GW intended for things to be written, and this is how it should be played (and how I will always play it.)

However, because of the stupid wording in the way the ASF rule is written, it can cause a bit of a paradox.

Always Strikes First states: "If a model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule"

So here is my very simple question: If a model is given ASF and ASL, does he still have ASF? I'm not asking if he benefits from the rules of ASF, because clearly the ASL rules say that he does not. But does he still possess that ability? The answer to this question is either yes, or it is no.

If he does have ASF still, then any enemy that faces him will strike at the same time as him, because of the stupid way ASF is written.

If he does not have ASF, then any other effect that provides a second dose of ASF would work, because he no longer has the first ASF. How can he have ASF twice if the first one is no longer there?

Like I said, this isn't a serious rules question, it is just an interesting philosophical (rules-osophical?) question. Actually, it's not even that- it's just something we can point our fingers at when we want to make the argument that GW doesn't make sense sometimes.

Blkc57
24-08-2012, 00:20
I'm not asking with does he benefit from the rules of ASF, because clearly the ASL rules say that he doesn't.

Ok, every person here can agree to this statement. Now we have the important part...


If he does have ASF still, then any enemy that faces him will strike at the same time as him, because of the stupid way ASF is written.

But to do so you would have to be applying a portion of the ASF rule, which you yourself jindianajonz stated the model gets no benefits from. Logically reading and applying the steps that many have laid out here solves this issue. Its only if one refuses to stop trying to apply the ASF rule do you have bizarre problems when ASL is included.

jindianajonz
24-08-2012, 00:28
Ok, every person here can agree to this statement. Now we have the important part...

But to do so you would have to be applying a portion of the ASF rule, which you yourself jindianajonz stated the model gets no benefits from. Logically reading and applying the steps that many have laid out here solves this issue. Its only if one refuses to stop trying to apply the ASF rule do you have bizarre problems when ASL is included.

Can you point me to the place where it says that you cannot have more than one instance of ASL or ASF? I thought it was the High Elf FAQ, but I'm not finding it there, or in the BRB Faq either. If it says you cannot receive the rule twice, I'd be willing to concede the point. But if it says you cannot have the rule twice, then that's a completely different story, mainly because the verbiage here ("have the rule") is the exact same as what the ASF rule says.

Blkc57
24-08-2012, 01:01
Main Rulebook Errata/FAQ page 2 midway down:


Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

You can have multiple of any rule, it just does absolutely nothing after the first time you gain it. So a vampire with Quickblood and the sword of Swift Slaying will only benefit from one instance of ASF. If a Thundertusk runs up and humps his leg, he will now have one instance of ASF (only one instance of ASF as the second does nothing) and one instance of ASL. The rules for ASF and ASL are not applied, and now you strike at iniative. Along comes a Tryant also with a Sword of Swift Slaying ( those magical articifers seem to really pump out those ASF swords), he will strike before your Vampire, because he has ASF but your Vampire gains NO BENEFIT from any part of ASF rule, So he strikes at his intiative.

The stupidity of the Speed of Asuyan is that High elves will have ASF regardless of the ASL rule of their weapons, so some people will try to claim that you can't give them ASL from another source. The problem is that while they ignore the weapon's ASL they don't ignore the instance of ASL from other sources like say a Bat swarm. So while the HE do have two sets of ASL you are still only applying one instance. Now the ASF from Speed and the ASL from the Swarm cancel out and you strike at iniative (which is still blazing fast for a HE). Its stupid and leads to some serious head scratching but thats what GW gets for trying to think they are clever and create a racial rule that breaks another rule and leads to this sitaution, all because they don't want people to **** on White Lions and Swordmasters.

Moss
24-08-2012, 01:01
...I claim that a model with ASF and ASL is not a model with neither but with both, and the rule on ASF vs ASF claims they will strike simultaneously, it just happens to be on initiative of the model with ASF and ASL.

It seems to me that your argument is based entirely on this assumption. Were it true, you would be correct (as stupid as it may be).

I'm going to requote the BRB on pg. 66 under Always Strikes Last, "If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies..." It's the 50th time this quote has been printed on this thread, but I'll emphasize different words. The sentence doesn't say that the two effects cancel out. The way it's worded to me means that the rules cancel each other out, not the effects.

Because it really isn't explicitly clear whether the rules or the effects are canceled, this may just be one of those "agree to disagree" things.

jindianajonz
24-08-2012, 01:32
Main Rulebook Errata/FAQ page 2 midway down:



You can have multiple of any rule, it just does absolutely nothing after the first time you gain it. So a vampire with Quickblood and the sword of Swift Slaying will only benefit from one instance of ASF. If a Thundertusk runs up and humps his leg, he will now have one instance of ASF (only one instance of ASF as the second does nothing) and one instance of ASL. The rules for ASF and ASL are not applied, and now you strike at iniative. Along comes a Tryant also with a Sword of Swift Slaying ( those magical articifers seem to really pump out those ASF swords), he will strike before your Vampire, because he has ASF but your Vampire gains NO BENEFIT from any part of ASF rule.

Ok, so let me do a quick recap, since it keeps us all on the same page.

"A model gains no benefit from HAVING the same special rule multiple times."

"If the model with [Always Strikes First] is fighting an enemy WITH the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously..."

Emphasis mine in both situations.

So again, my question would be: When a model is given both ASF and ASL and the two cancel out, does it still count as having ASF?

If it does still have it, then it is a model "with the same ability", and attacks are made simultaneously.
If it does not still have it, then it can receive it again later on, because at no point will it "have the same ability multiple times".

Now that I've made my argument, I want to state unequivocally that if anybody ever tried to interpret it like this in an actual game, I'd probably never play them again. To me, this is just an instance of poorly written rules and nothing more.

EDIT: Actually, I'm gonna retract that and say it's not even poorly written. It's more an instance of idiot rules lawyers like myself analyzing rules to death and tearing all the fun out of the game. Then again, I do love me some paradoxes.

Blkc57
24-08-2012, 01:55
We seem to be circling around the same point over and over again jindianajonz, I absolutely understand what you are saying, I'm not sure you undersatnd what I am trying to say, in that by stating: "it is a model "with the same ability", and attacks are made simultaneously." you are in fact applying a part of the ASF rule which the ASL rule says you don't do. I guess look at it this way, if ASL and ASF are both present then imagine the words under the ASF heading have disappeared, there is a blank section where ASF used to be and under ASL all you see is the words "You now strike at initiative order." What do you now do if you come across someone with ASF? remember the words "If the model with [Always Strikes First] is fighting an enemy WITH the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously..." have disappeared.You glance down at page 66 and only see those words; "Strike at iniative order" under the heading where ASF and ASL used to be.

Although I agree its silly we keep doing this when obviously no one in their right mind will ever actually try to argue this and risk being punched in the belly by an angry dwarf. I guess we do it to enjoy the wonderful vagaries of English, oh why can't we all just cut to the chase and speak German.

jindianajonz
24-08-2012, 02:14
But what about the other guy's ASF? He still has to check to see if his opponent has ASF! ;)

Incidentally, if you want a great and amusing book on the English language, check out Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue" and "Made In America". It talks about the way English is both superior and inferior to other languages, in ways that even an illiterate engineer like myself can understand and find amusing. And if you want a great book about the history of science, check out Bill Bryon's "A Complete History of Nearly Everything". In fact, just read everything Bill Bryson has ever written. It's all awesome.

Blkc57
24-08-2012, 02:27
I suppose, but for the other guy to factor in his opponent's ASF he would have to apply the rule to the character. In any case a goat comes along and eats page 66 out of both books, SO THERE! :p

In a completely tangential turn of events, why would some one open up a bakery and not sell cookies? If all they intend to do is sell birthday cakes why on earth do they need a store front. I am very bitter about not getting my cookies. :cries:

Jagosaja
24-08-2012, 05:55
Ah, but when another guy wants to open a bakery there and sees a sign "bakery" on a shop next to him, will he wonder if that is a competition regardless if there are any actual cookies inside there?

T10
24-08-2012, 08:47
In fact, just read everything Bill Bryson has ever written. It's all awesome.
Are you Bill Bryson?

-T10

jindianajonz
25-08-2012, 02:52
Are you Bill Bryson?

-T10

I can only dream...

Sheena Easton
25-08-2012, 10:05
When a British recording artist thats sung with Prince tells you your wrong, I think its a safe bet you've made a mistake in your reasoning

This is true.

HurrDurr
25-08-2012, 12:17
a strange situation occurred to me and my friend the other day. I had a vampire with quickblood and great weapon, he had a dark elf lord with asf banner in the unit. Now, since my vampire had asf and asl rules, he strikes by initiative. but since he retains asf rule nevertheless, he also strikes at the same time with the dark elf lord which also has asf. Had it been that the dark elf lord didn't have asf, he would have the precedence in striking and would have gone before me due to his higher initiative value. In other words, with asf he would strike later than without asf.

Am i playing this right? If i am, this sounds just wrong.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo, you're not a high elf.