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cornonthecob
23-08-2012, 11:16
One thing irritates me, every time I lose with my dwarfs (mostly my fault for being a terrible player) everyone tells me the only way to win with dwarfs is gunline.

Is there any way to make a Dwarf army capable in close combat and winnable ?

Malorian
23-08-2012, 13:56
Those people are idiots. The dwarf gunline was 7th ed.

Take warmachines and back them up with hordes of great weapon dwarf (take your pick, there are many options).

People that think dwarfs can't hold their own in combat haven't had a horde of great weapons be anvil charged into their flank, or miners into their rear.

Marmaduc
23-08-2012, 14:12
Dwarfs can even be sneaky. If you are playing at a high enough points level (or even low points if you are willing to give an all-or-nothing army a shot) try a unit of elite GW infantry (Rangers add extra fun) and a character with the Master Rune of Challenge. With Rangers you can force the enemy to try and charge you on turn 1! Stuck in CC, few opponents can stand up to an undamaged mob of elite GW dwarfs and being in CC will protect you from warmachines, missile troops, and many offensive spells.
I've also seen a few gag lists that use Miners and Rangers so that you set up little or nothing on the table to start with!

Mechanium
23-08-2012, 15:10
Those aren't "gag" lists, they're good ones.

russellmoo
23-08-2012, 15:21
The key is finding a way to win close combat- there are 2 approaches- they have both been listed above-

1- Use warmachines to counter act the effects of magic buffs/hexes, and your own casualties from shooting and magic

2- Find a way to get into close combat as soon as possible- this means taking a large unit of rangers, some miners, and/or an anvil- this way you can move in and fight it out before your opponents magic has the opportunity to whittle you down and crush you with magic-

Malorian
23-08-2012, 16:10
Or both! One of my favorite tricks is to blast a unit with warmachines and then use the anvil to charge into it.

Montegue
27-08-2012, 18:00
The Ambush list can work, but you have to recognize some things -

If you bring War Machines, they will remain largely unprotected.

Miners may not come on the board when you want them to.

Our units will crumble to many other units if we get them into combat unsupported. This includes large blocks of halbrediers or even Goblins that get a flank charge.

We can't buff our guys or hex their guys. This means we have to be fighting a battle our stat line can crush. So, you have to go strong to weak. Also, avoid monsters like Hydras. Especially if there are two of them. Normally our war machines kill those guys, but if you start in range, you're going to be in trouble. I had a block of 40 Great Weapon longbeard rangers get cut in half in one round of combat with two hydras. It was uuuugly.

Morax
29-08-2012, 18:54
50 Longbeard rangers with greatweapons and throwing axes, bearing the rune of slowness accompanied by a character with master rune of challenge. I've seen it set-up 2 deep and 25 wide, use the master rune of challenge turn one and delete an enemy unit with 50 strength 5 stand and shoot attacks. It was nasty. Then then moved about throwing axes at stuff till they died. Gotta say that unit was absolutely viscious.

It was backed up by two hordes of hammerers, an anvil, a bsb with rune of "I move before the game starts", and a hard to kill dwarf lord.

slaraas1
30-08-2012, 11:38
I don't know the answer but i've seen dwarf rangers happliy roll up a chaos flank taking out fast cav and some monstrous infanty while a good block of warriors and some ironbreakers dealt with the chaos troops. Personaly i would have said that dwarves WERE a close combat army. They just have to get there! Shooting just knocks off a few men until the clan arrives. Take the most punishing runic combos evan if you think 'this is waayy overboard'

raymon
30-08-2012, 13:15
I love the anvil and take rangers and miners next to at least a horde of Hammerers/warriors. But I do take some warmachines. I poor in two rounds of shot to get my enemy to come at me. And on turn three I charge. My rangers did some disruption in the main time and mostly my miners come in by that time.

Kaiserdean
30-08-2012, 21:34
I sometimes field this list:

Dwarf Lord - Rune that lets him scout (and other sundry items)
Dwarf BSB - Rune that lets him scout (and other runes)
Thorek Ironbrow
2 cannons

The rest of your points get spent on one unit Dwarf Longbeard rangers with great weapons.

Deployment:
Warmachines
Characters
The rest of the army scouts at one end of the table, 12" away from your opponent.
Turn 1, get close and use Thorek to charge in the magic phase.

Moss
31-08-2012, 04:30
I think the intent of the thread was to ask if you can have a non-gimick combat army...

GrandmasterWang
31-08-2012, 04:46
Yes, but how do you define gimmick?

I have had great success with my Strollaz. For a pure melee army, starting 6 forward is a big deal. This army has done well with minimal magic defense and no anvil or miners.

For full on trick army, strollaz with rangers can have 1st turn hammer throwing which is great for a laugh.

Miners work well, but much better with the anvil

The Low King
03-09-2012, 09:35
I take a combat army sometimes.

The main thing you need is the Strollaz rune on a BSB (make a move with all nearby unit before the battle), you need to reach combat as quickly as possible, and dwarfs are slow.
The next thing is some defence against warmachines and shooting, without warmachines ive seen even WOC castle against me (it was very funny); Master Rune of Grungni somewhere for the 5+ ward agaisnt shooting for the centre of your battleline and some small unit(s) of miners for taking out warmachines/missile troops (size depends on how much you want them to do).
You also need a few redirectors somewhere, without our warmachines we cant just blast units we are scared of, you have to hold them (or any supporting units) up long enough for you to be able to combo charge them (Rune of Slowness might also be useful here). I always took a Gyrocopter or two and a small unit of slayers as sacrificial units. They can also be good to block units of golbins or slaves, who just arnt worth fighting most of the time.
Without cannons you need something to deal with those nasty monsters, MI hordes and characters. I liked a unit of hammerers led by a killy dwarf lord, they just slaughtered their way through tough stuff, but a big unit of slayers or a tank lord could be equally good.

My list was usuallly something along the lines of:

Dwarf Lord
Runelord
BSB

30 hammerers
40 GW warriors
40 GW warriors
35 shield warriors
6 slayers
Gyrocopter
miners

It does work, but you have to be very careful, if your units drift too far apart they will die. Its a nice change though.

GrandmasterWang
04-09-2012, 02:53
Yeah, people seem to really enjoy facing melee dwarfs.

Ive been experimenting with "plebs". 10 man shieldless dwarfs (very old monopose plastics). 2 or 3 lots of them for deployment drops and to be a nuisance. Best offensively they have done is kill a corpse cart but they are ok redirectors/blockers

The Low King
04-09-2012, 15:54
Try small units of miners for that.
Units of 5, maybe with blasting charges for the odd bit of luck against a chariot charge or something. If you need the drops use them, if you dont want the drops then they start underground and go warmachine hunting,

Harwammer
05-09-2012, 21:12
I've found it's best not to use the gyro as a sacrificial unit or use it too threateningly in the early game. Use it to push enemies fleeing your charges back towards your own lines (making them easier to catch) mid game or run down enemy units late game. These are two things dwarfs struggle with.

Lone slayer heroes, small units of elites or min units of warriors all make passable sacrifical units.

Soundwave
06-09-2012, 15:30
Ohh so complicated! My most sound thrashing from Dwarfs(me Dark Elves) was from a dwarf list composed entirely of core troops. Some hand gunners deployed on the flanks (10 each side) to shoot up any troublesome flankers (my Dark riders and corsair, short rbc) then a wave of dwarf warriors with shield and hand weapon in the first line of defense to hold me up and glue my advancing force in place whilst being butchered by the second wave of dwarf warriors with g.w backed up by a horde of dwarfs with the general and a stone thrower(just 1) which i could not come to grips with!!!

Moss
07-09-2012, 02:17
Ohh so complicated! My most sound thrashing from Dwarfs(me Dark Elves) was from a dwarf list composed entirely of core troops. Some hand gunners deployed on the flanks (10 each side) to shoot up any troublesome flankers (my Dark riders and corsair, short rbc) then a wave of dwarf warriors with shield and hand weapon in the first line of defense to hold me up and glue my advancing force in place whilst being butchered by the second wave of dwarf warriors with g.w backed up by a horde of dwarfs with the general and a stone thrower(just 1) which i could not come to grips with!!!

Right. My definition of a "close combat army" doesn't necessarily exclude shooting unit/war machines; they're just kept at a minimum. I imagine that a unit of gunners or quarellers is almost necessary since dwarves have no other reliable way of dealing with enemy redirectors. And you still need something to encourage your enemy to advance toward your combat troops, so a warmachine (grudge thrower) has a place in such an army as well.

Grentain
07-09-2012, 05:40
Whenever I play a dwarf list, I run a gimmicky ranger-miner list. It really gets all the tricks I want to put in it at the 2000 point mark, but it tends to suffer pretty badly from only having a few blocks of super-expensive infantry. On the plus side, nearly every model in the list has a great weapon. I usually run double-rangers with Bugman, one of which is a Quarreler squad. I stick a Thane in the quarreler squad with the Rune of Challenge, since in 8E you can pretty much force an enemy unit to fail a charge on turn one with it, get a free stand-and-shoot for 25 points, and then put you into possible charge range of the enemy unit. Even if they do manage to succeed the charge, if you positioned your rangers cleverly you could still have it work to your advantage.

Then I'll take an Anvil, giving the Runelord the Rune of Shielding (Effectively giving the entire anvil a 2+ ward), Master Rune of Dismay, and two Spellbreaker Runes. With the Anvil, you can Underground Advance and Charge in the same turn with Miners, which can be downright nasty. Sometimes I just take a small squad and use them to walk through enemy artillery lines.

Xerkics
07-09-2012, 14:05
The ranger + anvil ambush really puts me of personally i think they will prob get rid of tgat completely next book as it doesnt make much sense.

The Low King
07-09-2012, 14:39
The ranger + anvil ambush really puts me of personally i think they will prob get rid of tgat completely next book as it doesnt make much sense.

What bit of it doesnt make sense?

Soundwave
08-09-2012, 16:38
Right. My definition of a "close combat army" doesn't necessarily exclude shooting unit/war machines; they're just kept at a minimum. I imagine that a unit of gunners or quarellers is almost necessary since dwarves have no other reliable way of dealing with enemy redirectors. And you still need something to encourage your enemy to advance toward your combat troops, so a warmachine (grudge thrower) has a place in such an army as well.
Correct.A total dwarf infantry army without any counters of sorts will be out classed by movement and all those really annoying units such as dark riders e.t.c. A small unit of hand-gunners on a flank will be an affective counter alternative to the dwarf armies lack of.Its kind of weird but i would think of a small unit of missile troops as a unit of fast cavalry???(given an army without any!)

Tato
08-10-2012, 11:36
Is there any way to make a Dwarf army capable in close combat and winnable ?

Absolutely, as most Dwarf players here agree. The exact army list will depend on on the point limit. You CAN field a CC dwarf army. Having said that I would in most cases advise not to disregard artillery completely: these are the shining point of the dwarf army and can help you deal with some many threats (like monsters). The key to CC success in 8th ed is big blocks of infantry. Why? Reason 1: you want to take advantage of the horde rule (take those 30+ HW S6 attacks you bad enemy, you!), reason2: you want to deny VP (we are just a few standing but its turn 6 so that's null points for you Mr Enemy!), Reason3: in melee Dwarfs will get hit first because of terrible Initiative and/or HW rule, and you want to have some models to fight back, Reason 4: you REALLY want to win CC and CC is won on the basis of battle outcome where the loser tests leadership modified by the melee result: big warrior mobs will make you steadfast and roll on unmodified Ld (with base 9 Ld we are not running away, no sir!) or make additional combat result points for you for ranks and make them lose nad roll (run! You'll just die tired!).

Small games (1000-1500 pts)
I do take a near pure CC list with 2 big infantry blocks and maybe just one cannon or organ gun (depends on enemy army) to counter off the odd monster or fast flanker. My warriors could be upgraded to Longbeard Rangers with Strollaz and hero with Rune of Brotherhood. Why? Because if you go for CC you really want to get there as soon as possible, without being shot at. Taking throwing axes will help, as enemies will try to run away or outmanouvre you.
List would go something like:

Dwarf Lord, Rune of Brotherhood, MRoG, HW
Thane BSB, Strollaz
25-30 Longbeard Rangers, Throwing Axes

Runesmith
25-30 Warriors HW (or buff them up to Longbeards, or even Hammerers if you can allow it: i tried all and usually worked)

1 Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

With this army I have won several times, usually losing no points or just the cannon.

Mid sized (2000-2500 pts)
Here you have many options. Field some artillery, cannons for monsters, Grudge Throwers for enemy hordes. Once again 2 big sized CC units. In a 2500 game you will throw in the anvil. Strategy: w/o the anvil - pound incoming enemy with arty to decreas their numbers, wait till you see the whites of their eyes, then charge :), with anvil: use additional movement to manouvre and flank charge the opponent. If the enemy has warmachines take miners (again, rather in 15+ unit than 10, cause you may be charged by some kind of warmachine guard). Just yesterday I won a battle with Beastmen (they are a pure CC army, however not the very best in WH FB universe). The list was something as follows:

Dwarf Lord with Shieldbearers, HW, Rune of stone, Rune of warding
Thane BSB, Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Battle
40 Longbeard Warriors, Full Command

20 Ironbreakers, Full Command
RuneLord, Master Rune of Balance

1 x Cannon, RoForging, RoBurning
1x Cannon, RoForging
1x Grudge Thrower, RoAccuracy, 2xRoPenetration
1x Grudge Thrower, RoAccuracy, RoPenetration

In CC the Longbeard Horde vaporised Ungor Hordes and sent them running (testing Ldr on modified 3 or 4 is really difficult) while arty disposed of monsters, chariots and even the enemy general (no Look out sir! for that chap :) ). Having said that I still want to note that Ungors are not the best of infantry in WH FB.

Big games (3000 +)
Honestly speaking I rarely play this kind of game. Don't have the models, don't have the time, don't have the patience. :) I would go for 3 hordes for CC, 6 arties (assortment depending an acyual enemy army), buffed Lords and Heroes to go for challenges (with a tank Lord I even killed a DoCh Skulltaker in challenge who is like The Challenge Badass), anvil (a must in bigger games when you can allow one) and some miners for the sneak attack.

Having written all the above I am not saying that CC with Dwarfs is easy. For example I have never beaten a WoCh army yet. :( Also, some players would advise smaller units as they are more flexible. It may be so, but they are also much more diifficult to master. Me, being a terrible player like yourself :), I just cant make it. Big units are simpler and easier. At least that is my experience and judging form the posts in the thread on 8th ed Dwarf Tactica (took me two weeks to read through) most players take a simillar stance. Another point is reforming in battle. After 1 or 2 rounds of melee and in the face of diminishing troop numbers you will want to reform your horde to a 5 wide formation. Thanks to that you will still be able to be steadfast and outrank the opponent.

Good luck with your games.

BTW, this is my first post in Warseer so a warm hello to all WH players and particularly to Dwarf generals. :)