PDA

View Full Version : how does an entire craftworld of tasty souls survive in the Eye?



OgreBattle
23-08-2012, 20:49
So Altansar is pulled into the warp and... then it comes back out a few thousand years later. We see they still have crappy guardians, like anyone else, because that horrible magenta colorscheme shows up in the 4e codex.

Did they 'covertly' get sucked into the Eye and no chaos marines noticed? None of the 4 gods noticed? No demons casually noticed?
We got fluff of a single keeper of secrets annihilating a craftworld. We got fluff single marine chapters destroying craftworlds. We got fluff of tyranid swarms accidentally bumping into craftworlds and starting a fight...

So how the heck did Altansar not get eaten by an army of demons immediately?

Poseidal
23-08-2012, 20:55
The eye is where the material world and warp intersect, but time travels differently in the warp, so maybe in the material world they were gone for 10,000 years, but in the warped eye they've only been in there a few hours from their point of view.

Drasanil
23-08-2012, 21:01
Well the Black Crusade ending referred to them as ghostly and such. I'm tempted to say a nascent-not-fully-yet-conscious Ynnead... if only because its time the CWE got a decent break.

stormblade
23-08-2012, 21:08
Fluff armour!

Psyk cloaking fields, meditation induced mind hibernation or something similar maybe.

Idaan
23-08-2012, 21:17
We got fluff of a single keeper of secrets annihilating a craftworld. We got fluff single marine chapters destroying craftworlds. We got fluff of tyranid swarms accidentally bumping into craftworlds and starting a fight...
That's because the story of Altansar was written before the fluff hyperinflation came.

khirsath
25-08-2012, 19:36
Fluff Hyperinflation is such a great term :)

I recall the survivors being ghostly when the Eye of Terror was written up. Maybe they didn't escape unscathed? Though the idea that Ynnead protected them to be tantalizing as it opens many more story lines to advance the Eldar besides just killing off craftworlds. Of course such blessings from a protective warp entity aren't usually 100% good things. Sure they survived, but the nascent warp deity took its tole

FarseerMatt
25-08-2012, 21:29
None of the 4 gods noticed? No demons casually noticed? We got fluff of a single keeper of secrets annihilating a craftworld.
So how the heck did Altansar not get eaten by an army of demons immediately?

To be fair, even that rather silly story admits that craftworlds have various wards and safeguards that make it virtually impossible for daemons to get in unless someone on said craftworld is "tempted" (or in the story's case, picks up the idiot ball). Other than that, perhaps an assembly of seers were burning themselves out day and night to maintain a kind of Gellar Field, or as Khirsath suggests perhaps they had the help of a nascent Ynnead?

You could ask similar questions about how the Legion of the Damned survived and remained, if not unchanged, then at least pure of purpose.

TheDungen
26-08-2012, 08:59
if a lone person can survive in the warp then why is it so strange that a fully armoured armed and manned craftworld can survive in the eye? And as for corruption the eldar have much better controll over such things than humans.

In the old days a craftworld could take on an entire tyranid splinterfleet and survive (bareley).

eldargal
26-08-2012, 09:09
The infinity circuit also protects the Craftworld. It could simply be that that and a favourable position within the Eye (less chaotic energy, out of the way of raiding parties etc.) and time distortion meant they were able to survive. The eldar do seem to be able to push back warp breaches, in the same Eye of Terror campaign they reclaimed an enclave on one of the Crone worlds.

FarseerMatt
26-08-2012, 09:29
Two, actually - they're still working on that "enclave" on Eidolon, but they completely reclaimed their old capital world of Belial IV (which was, incidentally, mainly thanks to the reappearance of Altansar).

eldargal
26-08-2012, 09:33
I thought they abandoned Belial IV again? But yes, it is clear they can push back Chaos when they have a reason to. If they can create an enclanve on one daemon world and free another one completely a single Craftworld surviving with a bit of luck doesn't seem unreasonable.

stormblade
26-08-2012, 15:56
They took a planet named Belial?
Yeah, that's going to end up well.

Poseidal
26-08-2012, 17:37
It was one of the Eldar core worlds before the fall.

Lupe
26-08-2012, 17:59
They took a planet named Belial?
Yeah, that's going to end up well.

Better than naming one Armageddon? :)

stormblade
26-08-2012, 18:22
Better than naming one Armageddon? :)

Good point.

OgreBattle
27-08-2012, 07:22
Isn't Belial a Blood Angel? The Goodguys having the names of demons and the badguy demons having the names of puns...

Shadey
29-08-2012, 05:36
There is a Dark Angels character called Belial, the latest Master of the Deathwing iirc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the danger of Chaos is overstated and they are not as omnipresent as first impressions portray. Makes sense, they try so hard to make this a dark dystopian galaxy that they inflate the the power of the bad guys. I am not fond of that interpretation but it does reconcile certain events which leave you wondering "Why are daemons not tea-bagging these guys right about now?" *cough* Draigo. If extra sneaky perhaps the Eldar could have survived.

Polaria
29-08-2012, 06:42
That's because the story of Altansar was written before the fluff hyperinflation came.

In the case of Eldar and their craftworlds I think the basic problem that existed right from the start was that in the early fluff there was maybe a dozen craftworlds total and the silly writers wrote them to be pretty small... Like cities of maybe a couple of hundred thousand or a million inhabitants, tops.

Then, at some point, the fanbase realized that if there really was only a dozen craftworlds those needed to be ridiculously huge to have any impact on the universe. So the fanbase, on their own accord, retconned the craftworlds into basically invulnerable, unbeatable hulks of billions and billions of eldar.

At the same time the designers realized that in order to write epic stories where craftworlds have some impact but can also be destroyed (i.e aren't invulnerable to everything) they needed many craftworlds. So, quite opposite to what fanbase was thinking, they retconned the number of craftworlds into several hundreds or thousands but kept their size and population levels comparatively small.

Thus the current canon seems to say that the craftworld are numerous but small enough to be actually endangered or destroyed by level of power comparative to what is needed to destroy or endanger a single Space Marine Chapter. Like a splinter swarm of Tyrannids or a major daemonic incursion. You could say that craftworlds are the eldar equivalent of a space marine chapter in both power and resilience. However, at the same time a certain faction of eldar fans say that a single craftworld is basically an eldar equivalent of imperial Segmentum. Invulnerable, undestructible and nigh-omnipotent hulks of billion times billion eldar. Add oldie BFG fluff and new Mat Ward fluff to the mix, a spoonfull of angry fans, let it simmer for a few years and its another regular GW soup yet again.

Shamana
29-08-2012, 08:01
So, quite opposite to what fanbase was thinking, they retconned the number of craftworlds into several hundreds or thousands but kept their size and population levels comparatively small.


Was any clarification on size and population ever done, though? As far as I know, there are no detailed explanations of craftworld demographics, at least nothing official from GW. I do not know what is the average population for a major craftworld - a million Eldar? Fifty million? 2-3 Billion? Is a minor one on average a third of that? A tenth? A hundredth? Considering the human, orc, tyrannid or even necron numbers any of these would be a drop in the bucket compared to the other factions, but the difference is huge; especially if the craftworld is expecting an invasion and is undergoing near-full mobilization.

As for size, the only details I am aware of is that that BFG made them planetoid to planet-sized. That is a lot of space, especially if the interior of the craftworld is also populated.

Poseidal
29-08-2012, 08:36
GW were the ones suggesting Craftworlds couldn't be invaded: they still say the last invasion attempt ended in disaster. Craftworld forces also contain many titans, and they can do warfare with many of them and be able to have them plotted by birth triplets, stating triplets are a rarity; this implies that the population pool is large enough to provide sufficient pilots for these war machines.

The Iyanden board in doom of the Eldar had domes containing seas and continents with mountain ranges. The picture of inside a Craftworld in the 5th rulebook looked like a never ending metropolis.

Athlan na Dyr
29-08-2012, 10:12
So Altansar is pulled into the warp and... then it comes back out a few thousand years later. We see they still have crappy guardians, like anyone else, because that horrible magenta colorscheme shows up in the 4e codex.

Did they 'covertly' get sucked into the Eye and no chaos marines noticed? None of the 4 gods noticed? No demons casually noticed?
We got fluff of a single keeper of secrets annihilating a craftworld. We got fluff single marine chapters destroying craftworlds. We got fluff of tyranid swarms accidentally bumping into craftworlds and starting a fight...

So how the heck did Altansar not get eaten by an army of demons immediately?

Question: Are you sure they didn't?
Pretty much every Eldar bar those from Altansar think they're dodgy. Personally I agree with them.


GW were the ones suggesting Craftworlds couldn't be invaded: they still say the last invasion attempt ended in disaster. Craftworld forces also contain many titans, and they can do warfare with many of them and be able to have them plotted by birth triplets, stating triplets are a rarity; this implies that the population pool is large enough to provide sufficient pilots for these war machines.

The Iyanden board in doom of the Eldar had domes containing seas and continents with mountain ranges. The picture of inside a Craftworld in the 5th rulebook looked like a never ending metropolis.

^what he said. Not to mention Imperial Policy is generally 'don't attack Eldar'

Shadey
29-08-2012, 10:24
Was any clarification on size and population ever done, though? As far as I know, there are no detailed explanations of craftworld demographics, at least nothing official from GW. I do not know what is the average population for a major craftworld - a million Eldar? Fifty million? 2-3 Billion? Is a minor one on average a third of that? A tenth? A hundredth? Considering the human, orc, tyrannid or even necron numbers any of these would be a drop in the bucket compared to the other factions, but the difference is huge; especially if the craftworld is expecting an invasion and is undergoing near-full mobilization.

As for size, the only details I am aware of is that that BFG made them planetoid to planet-sized. That is a lot of space, especially if the interior of the craftworld is also populated.

The HH Fulgrim novel had the Ulthwe craftworld at somewhere between 9 and 14km (tbh I can't be bothered thumbing through to find the reference). It was intentionally hazy due to funky Eldar ECM which caused the size and position to waver. I was a little disappointed however I rationalized it that that ECM also made the craftworld appear about 10% of it's true size on the Imperial scopes.

I have little evidence for the following, it mainly being wishful thinking and extrapolation. I was thinking along the lines of 50 - 300km long but for this I am going to cherry pick 150. The basic shape would be roughly the bottom half of an egg perhaps a little flattened with fins and wings, dorsal and ventral spines and projections and a tail section dozens of kilometres long. The top half would be a dome within which are towers up to maybe 15km in height. The living space would protrude bellow the dome giving the living area a total depth of some 20 - 25km. This would initially create a rather high population density however there are two things that could effect that. First, I see open areas, parks, groves etc being quite common. The other being the personal Eldar living space. I could see this going either way. My inclination is that Eldar like their privacy and have a decent amount of personal space but equally, depending on how challenging an engineering feat these craftworlds are, most Eldar may have sacrificed this liberty. I prefer the former and am going to assume that. While those two factors would lower it, I think final population density would still be very high, maybe 3x or more that of a place like Hong Kong which is very crowded.

So take a craftworld with a doom roughly 90km long for a total area of about 3200km2. I just looked up some population density figures and the highest one is Macau, China at just under 20k per km2. They don't have anything approaching 25km high in living area but lets assume a very conservative estimate for the craftworld at double that of Macau (40k), no pun intended. This gives us a final figure of 128 million space Elves on this rather large example of a craftworld. This is in living area and likely infrastructure and life support capabilities may lower than number possibly significantly, but then that is part of why I assumed a mere double that of Macau despite significantly more vertical space.

I should reiterate, this entire thing has next to no fluff justification I have seen, short of that BFG reference.

Slightly more official, to assume a 9km long living area as (roughly) seen in Fulgrim, that still leaves us with over 5 million Eldar. I would be fairly confident in suggesting that as a lower end estimate.

Poseidal
29-08-2012, 10:29
Fulgrim's estimate is probably more like 1%, and the Craftworld had grown since then. The length of a Craftworld is going to be thousands of kilometres, not a hundred.

An earlier source than BFG gave moon sized as an estimate IIRC.

Athlan na Dyr
29-08-2012, 11:13
The HH Fulgrim novel had the Ulthwe craftworld at somewhere between 9 and 14km (tbh I can't be bothered thumbing through to find the reference). It was intentionally hazy due to funky Eldar ECM which caused the size and position to waver. I was a little disappointed however I rationalized it that that ECM also made the craftworld appear about 10% of it's true size on the Imperial scopes.

I have little evidence for the following, it mainly being wishful thinking and extrapolation. I was thinking along the lines of 50 - 300km long but for this I am going to cherry pick 150. The basic shape would be roughly the bottom half of an egg perhaps a little flattened with fins and wings, dorsal and ventral spines and projections and a tail section dozens of kilometres long. The top half would be a dome within which are towers up to maybe 15km in height. The living space would protrude bellow the dome giving the living area a total depth of some 20 - 25km. This would initially create a rather high population density however there are two things that could effect that. First, I see open areas, parks, groves etc being quite common. The other being the personal Eldar living space. I could see this going either way. My inclination is that Eldar like their privacy and have a decent amount of personal space but equally, depending on how challenging an engineering feat these craftworlds are, most Eldar may have sacrificed this liberty. I prefer the former and am going to assume that. While those two factors would lower it, I think final population density would still be very high, maybe 3x or more that of a place like Hong Kong which is very crowded.

So take a craftworld with a doom roughly 90km long for a total area of about 3200km2. I just looked up some population density figures and the highest one is Macau, China at just under 20k per km2. They don't have anything approaching 25km high in living area but lets assume a very conservative estimate for the craftworld at double that of Macau (40k), no pun intended. This gives us a final figure of 128 million space Elves on this rather large example of a craftworld. This is in living area and likely infrastructure and life support capabilities may lower than number possibly significantly, but then that is part of why I assumed a mere double that of Macau despite significantly more vertical space.

I should reiterate, this entire thing has next to no fluff justification I have seen, short of that BFG reference.

Slightly more official, to assume a 9km long living area as (roughly) seen in Fulgrim, that still leaves us with over 5 million Eldar. I would be fairly confident in suggesting that as a lower end estimate.

Yeah I agree, 9 to 14 km is waaaaay to small. The craftworlds are said to dwarf the Dragonships that make port, and the dragonships are roughly of a size with an Imperial Battleship. Seeing as an Imperial Battleship is between 6 and 8 km long...
Furthermore, their growth in volume since the Fall is between 10 and 100 times that of the original (from Lexicanum).
So, somewhere in the region of 140-1400 km seems reasonable. I'd put it in the upper region (so 900+), though that is the Eldar fan in me.
However, bearing in mind the Dome structure of the Craftworlds and this picture of such a dome 149636, would seem to agree with the upper limit.

So even your large craftworld might be a conservative estimate. As an Eldar fan, I'm fine with this :D
Cheers for the population size analysis. Interesting reading.

Shadey
29-08-2012, 11:19
I didn't know they grew, that's cool. Though could the reproduction rates of the Eldar keep up? Are they even multiplying?

At that size you could easily have the population of Earth in half a dozen of them. At those numbers makes me think the whole 'we're a dying race thing' is just some attention getting victimization..

Rockerfella
29-08-2012, 11:43
Indeed.

as I remember, in the Novel 'fulgrim', when Ulthwe decides to reveal itself to the emperors children, the command bridge at first thought it was a 'moon'.

That gives some idea of an average Craftworld size.

EDIT- Hmmmm. After reading some of the earlier posts, maybe I've confused Fulgrim with another novel......

Idaan
29-08-2012, 12:22
As I said in the other thread, nothing suggests that the craft in "Fulgrim" was Ulthwe.

Polaria
29-08-2012, 12:22
The HH Fulgrim novel had the Ulthwe craftworld at somewhere between 9 and 14km (tbh I can't be bothered thumbing through to find the reference). It was intentionally hazy due to funky Eldar ECM which caused the size and position to waver. I was a little disappointed however I rationalized it that that ECM also made the craftworld appear about 10% of it's true size on the Imperial scopes.

I have little evidence for the following, it mainly being wishful thinking and extrapolation. I was thinking along the lines of 50 - 300km long but for this I am going to cherry pick 150. The basic shape would be roughly the bottom half of an egg perhaps a little flattened with fins and wings, dorsal and ventral spines and projections and a tail section dozens of kilometres long. The top half would be a dome within which are towers up to maybe 15km in height. The living space would protrude bellow the dome giving the living area a total depth of some 20 - 25km. This would initially create a rather high population density however there are two things that could effect that. First, I see open areas, parks, groves etc being quite common. The other being the personal Eldar living space. I could see this going either way. My inclination is that Eldar like their privacy and have a decent amount of personal space but equally, depending on how challenging an engineering feat these craftworlds are, most Eldar may have sacrificed this liberty. I prefer the former and am going to assume that. While those two factors would lower it, I think final population density would still be very high, maybe 3x or more that of a place like Hong Kong which is very crowded.

So take a craftworld with a doom roughly 90km long for a total area of about 3200km2. I just looked up some population density figures and the highest one is Macau, China at just under 20k per km2. They don't have anything approaching 25km high in living area but lets assume a very conservative estimate for the craftworld at double that of Macau (40k), no pun intended. This gives us a final figure of 128 million space Elves on this rather large example of a craftworld. This is in living area and likely infrastructure and life support capabilities may lower than number possibly significantly, but then that is part of why I assumed a mere double that of Macau despite significantly more vertical space.

I should reiterate, this entire thing has next to no fluff justification I have seen, short of that BFG reference.

Slightly more official, to assume a 9km long living area as (roughly) seen in Fulgrim, that still leaves us with over 5 million Eldar. I would be fairly confident in suggesting that as a lower end estimate.

Your estimations assume that the craftworlds are basically build as huge pancakes. Basically 2-dimensional flatlands with comparatively low buildings (even scyscrapers are comparatively low when compared to a dome with 45km radius). This is a sensible assumption inside a gravity well like a planet, but craftworlds are spacehips, right? If they are build in three dimensions like you would expect from a spaceship the amount of living space goes up exponentially. For example, if we assume a dome 90 km across and shaped like a half of a ball the radius and height of the dome is 45 km. The total volume is 2/3*pi*45km^3 = 190852 cubic kilometres. Even if you'd assume a HUGE average ceiling height like, say, 100 meters, the total habitable area of the dome would be 1 908 520 square kilometers or roughly the size of Mexico (the whole country, not just Mexico City).

The "Fulgrim Ship" only 9 kilometers across (radius of 4.5 km) and built as a half of a ball would have volume of 191 cubic kilometres. With average ceiling height of not-so-ridiculous 20 meters it would have the total habitable area of 9550 square kilometers. Which is three times as much as your assumed pancake-craftworld had.

Shadey
29-08-2012, 12:42
I did mention the shape was an assumption based on my own fanciful thinking. What I did not say, is that it was a pancake or that was flat (I said slightly flattened). I also said the living area, basically the dome, was 25km high. I was working on the dome being roughly half (I mentioned half an egg) of it's height which gives the craftworld a total height of 50km, at 1/3 of the ships length that makes a pancake does it?

I also doubled the highest population density we have on Earth specifically for the depth.

I also mentioned large open spaces.

I also mentioned it was a very conservative estimate.

I also didn't assume the entire volume was filled but specifically mentioned that it was filled with towers, not one colossal solid megastructure (apart from the lower half).

Polaria
29-08-2012, 15:11
From all the material I've read describing the insides of the Eldar craftworld the ceiling of any specific space seems to be visible even in so-called "outside areas". Thus one should expect that the ceiling of the large open spaces is not 25 km high. Actually it might very well be as close as 1 km or less and the space would still have the large and open space feeling.

Your calculations as rough and estimate they might be, were based on structures in modern cities which, like I mentioned, are very, very, very low and "pancake-like" in comparison to the vertical distances we are talking about. The problem is that even the highest popualtion densities we have in this planet are basically using the horizontal structure with very, very limited vertical element. If you take Hong Kong or Macau, for example, the average height of the buildings is just a few dozen meters and a very large portion of the city is build very low and has large open spaces which could not be built on at all. Actually 75% of Hong Kong area is countryside. Macau has no countryside, but its build considerably lower than Hong Kong.

Even if the craftworld was build, like you suggested, as basically a "lets take a piece of planetary surface to the sky" and encased in what is, for structural purposes, a single-level structure with single floor level and single ceiling there is no reason why the eldar would basically waste 25 kilometers height worth of superstructure while building their towers or spires only few hundred meters high.

They could very easily build spires several dozen kilometers tall that could house several millions of eldar each and still have plenty of room left. A craftworld the size of "Fulgrims 9 km", if build with any sense, could easily house millions of eldar and still have large open spaces so big that you could only see the ceiling when there is no clouds and where you can have a forest big enough that you can't get from one side to another in less than several hours of non-stop walking. Basically what I am saying is that any ship larger than 10 or 15 km across will be ridiculously big even with several tens of millions of inhabitants.

FarseerMatt
29-08-2012, 18:59
*Double take* Rockerfella's back!


Question: Are you sure they didn't?
Pretty much every Eldar bar those from Altansar think they're dodgy. Personally I agree with them.

Completely meta reasoning here, but the usual theme in 40K of things not being as they appear makes me think it far more likely that they are (at least mostly) pure if nobody trusts them. If they'd been welcomed back with open arms, they'd probably be revealed to be a secret Chaos cult working their way in amongst the other craftworlds to bring them down.

Hendarion
30-08-2012, 07:03
I won't try to put too much explanations into Altansar. They survived the eye. They look uncommon. That is the typical way GW writes fluff - make it spooky and make it unclear. Trying to argue whether or not it indeed had been invaded by Chaos is funny, but has no goal. We can speculate about a lot of things having happened to it or not, but we can't argue. There is no material to find arguments about any side. Anything could have happened from totally staying pure to being corrupted, mind-controlled, physically dead, possessed, whatever.

Other Craftworlds being sceptical about Altansar isn't any indication for anything. Alaitoc for example is sceptical about nearly any other Craftworld out there, most importantly about Saim-Hann and Ulthwé probably. Living that far from each other probably is a good reason to turn suspicious about everybody else in general.

Grentain
30-08-2012, 07:14
Fluff Hyperinflation is such a great term :)

Hey, keep yer creepy fetishes out of my Eldar fluff. :V


if a lone person can survive in the warp then why is it so strange that a fully armoured armed and manned craftworld can survive in the eye? And as for corruption the eldar have much better controll over such things than humans.

For one, I'd wager it's probably because an individual body is much harder to locate than a giant *******' floating space-orb city.

Shadey
30-08-2012, 07:50
From all the material I've read describing the insides of the Eldar craftworld the ceiling of any specific space seems to be visible even in so-called "outside areas". Thus one should expect that the ceiling of the large open spaces is not 25 km high. Actually it might very well be as close as 1 km or less and the space would still have the large and open space feeling.

Your calculations as rough and estimate they might be, were based on structures in modern cities which, like I mentioned, are very, very, very low and "pancake-like" in comparison to the vertical distances we are talking about. The problem is that even the highest popualtion densities we have in this planet are basically using the horizontal structure with very, very limited vertical element. If you take Hong Kong or Macau, for example, the average height of the buildings is just a few dozen meters and a very large portion of the city is build very low and has large open spaces which could not be built on at all. Actually 75% of Hong Kong area is countryside. Macau has no countryside, but its build considerably lower than Hong Kong.

Even if the craftworld was build, like you suggested, as basically a "lets take a piece of planetary surface to the sky" and encased in what is, for structural purposes, a single-level structure with single floor level and single ceiling there is no reason why the eldar would basically waste 25 kilometers height worth of superstructure while building their towers or spires only few hundred meters high.

They could very easily build spires several dozen kilometers tall that could house several millions of eldar each and still have plenty of room left. A craftworld the size of "Fulgrims 9 km", if build with any sense, could easily house millions of eldar and still have large open spaces so big that you could only see the ceiling when there is no clouds and where you can have a forest big enough that you can't get from one side to another in less than several hours of non-stop walking. Basically what I am saying is that any ship larger than 10 or 15 km across will be ridiculously big even with several tens of millions of inhabitants.

I said the dome was 25km high and that there were multiple towers inside it, just like the skyline of a regular city. I don't know where you are getting this impression that I said the structures were only a few hundred metres high, I never said anything approaching that. I specifically doubled Macau's density purely because of the difference in vertical height which I surmised to be at 15km (which I admit would hold far more), yet again taking a very conservative estimate in order to get a lower end estimate.

Please, this pancake impression you are trying to portray exists only in your posts. Please try responding to what I actually say.

Chrysalis
20-12-2012, 07:34
Sorry for the threadomancy...

I was reading some pages from Codex: Necrons yesterday and read that a Necron character (the one who collects rare items), had the "spectral chorus of Altansar" in his collection. Although we can only speculate about what a "spectral chorus" is, I wonder how a Necron character could get his hand on an item coming from a craftworld that was stuck in the Eye of Terror for 10.000 years...

Another thing I read about Altansar is that it was now travelling in Segmentum Solar, hence in the very heart of the Imperium, and that mankind was doing nothing about it... What could it mean???

ftayl5
20-12-2012, 08:30
My theory (based on almost nothing truly) is they have a whole council of seers that can cloak the craftworld? They managed to survive in the eye of terror for 10'000 years without so much of a scratch to speak of - or at least to write of. The only explanation for that that I can think of is some kind of cloaking and if they were doing it for 10'000 years they would get pretty good at it.

If the Imperium knows they're there then their lack of hostility towards them is staggering. They're Eldar from the eye of terror, that should rate pretty high on the paranoia-meter.

Shamana
20-12-2012, 08:59
Another thing I read about Altansar is that it was now travelling in Segmentum Solar, hence in the very heart of the Imperium, and that mankind was doing nothing about it... What could it mean???

A lot of things, really. It was meant to be a hook to get people speculating. Here are a few ideas:

a) Perhaps after the 13th Black Crusade Eldar are a much lower priority for the Imperium - low enough that the Imperium doesn't do anything about it (yet). Remember, at the end of the EoT campaign the Imperium was s straining to contain a large Chaos eruption which could mean Game Over if not rolled back, and sending everything it had at it, even at the cost of weakening its other fronts. And there are still huge Tyranid fleets, Orks, Necrons etc. The Eldar were just allies in the war - untrustworthy allies, but allies nonetheless. Frankly, the craftworlders have to do something pretty outrageous to even register on the IoM's "to do" list.

b) Alternatively, it could be a sort of complicity - i.e. the Segmentum Solar is the safest (for the Imperium) space around. If it is chaos you are worried about, that would be the best place to hide something from it. Or, if you presume Altansar is somehow infected, to contain it. This presumes some sort of cooperation between the craftworlds (i.e. Ulthwe) and the Imperium - strange, but not impossible under the circumstances.

c) IMO quite likely - the Imperium doesn't know Altansar is there. The Segmentum Solar is still an uimaginably huge place. If Altansar jumped there from the webway and keeps to deep space, what makes you think the Imperium will immediately know? Remember, Altansar was somehow elusive enough to survive millenia in the Eye, it wouldn't be much of a stretch that they would have psychic concealment tricks second to none. But even without it, how would you know that something is far, far in deep space? Why would you even look?

Poseidal
20-12-2012, 08:59
They're probably carrying Cypher to his destination or something.

OgreBattle
20-12-2012, 09:35
Sorry for the threadomancy...

I was reading some pages from Codex: Necrons yesterday and read that a Necron character (the one who collects rare items), had the "spectral chorus of Altansar" in his collection. Although we can only speculate about what a "spectral chorus" is, I wonder how a Necron character could get his hand on an item coming from a craftworld that was stuck in the Eye of Terror for 10.000 years...

He probably went into the eye to get it. Because he's awesome. That guy is my favorite character in 40k now. He probably wants a Blackstone Fortress just so he can recreate "Eldrad's Last Stand"

Hendarion
20-12-2012, 10:06
c) IMO quite likely - the Imperium doesn't know Altansar is there. The Segmentum Solar is still an uimaginably huge place. If Altansar jumped there from the webway and keeps to deep space, what makes you think the Imperium will immediately know? Remember, Altansar was somehow elusive enough to survive millenia in the Eye, it wouldn't be much of a stretch that they would have psychic concealment tricks second to none.
Personally I guess only a few people in the Imperium know what a Craftworld is at all. Only a few will know what Altansar is or where it had been and a few will know there is something in the segmentum solar. Problem is most likely that NONE of these three facts are combined in one person.
Also, reading IA11, it suggests that the Craftworld Mymeara has hidden itself either in or created or projected a cosmic cloud/storm where nobody of the Imperium tried to get too close to. Other Craftworlds, especially Altansar, could likely do the same.

Chrysalis
20-12-2012, 11:19
Here is a bit of wild speculation: Altansar is stuck in the Eye of Terror, and although they stand ground for a couple of millenia, endless battles weaken the craftworld to the point extinction is to be considered. Of course, Altansar uses more and more wraith constructs, developping new forms of wraithbone forms to inhabit - just like Iyanden, but being forced to do it more quickly, because the craftworld was much smaller. It's now just a matter of time before almost the whole population is reduced to wraithbone-creatures, which is a problem because they need living psykers to interract with their surrounding. Now, this necron guy Trazyn makes his way to Altansar in one way or another - probably questing for some kind of artefact in the Eye of Terror. Oddly enough (highly improbable!), he manages to have a "diplomatic approach" with those Eldar, and offers them a deal they can't refuse: some necron tech secrets/artefact that will allow Altansar to survive, in exchange of this "spectral chorus", maybe the very thing that made the infinity circuit work!
This would mean that Altansar Eldar are now a mix of wraithbone eldar-sized constructs and necron tech that allowed all their consciousnesses to be transfered into those new bodies (including those of the infinity circuit, that is no longer needed). This would explain why Altansar Eldar seem to be cold and ghostly to other Eldar, and why it's said that they are still alive "in a way". Now that Altansar was freed from the Eye of Terror, maybe they share their secrets about the Necrons with the Mechanicus, hence they need to stay "near" Mars (in Segmentum Solar) and are tolerated.

Hellebore
20-12-2012, 22:50
Because unlike Kher-Ys, Guffin 'Heartslayer' McDaemon wasn't available to conveniently destroy the entire thing from the inside....

Hellebore

wanderingblade
21-12-2012, 01:49
Well the Black Crusade ending referred to them as ghostly and such. I'm tempted to say a nascent-not-fully-yet-conscious Ynnead... if only because its time the CWE got a decent break.

Sure! Which leg?

In all seriousness, I think that if they're not telling, its because they want us to speculate that something big like that is happening/happened. Because, y'know, probably shouldn't still be there.

Chrysalis
21-12-2012, 05:24
To my mind, Ynnead (if he will ever exist) will wake up only when the last Eldar dies - so he can't even be "nascent" right now. Moreover, the prophecy seem to say that he will awake as a new "godlike" entity, just like Slaanesh did, to smash her. And then it's over, the unconsciously-guilty-Eldar will have repaired the wrong they've done to the galaxy by giving birth to Slaanesh. It doesn't sound like he'll rise hordes of undead Eldar :D

Hendarion
21-12-2012, 06:54
Necron-Tech that knows more about surviving in the Warp than Eldar tech does? Dude, you sound like Mad Weird Matt Ward.

Chrysalis
21-12-2012, 07:29
Necron-Tech that knows more about surviving in the Warp than Eldar tech does? Dude, you sound like Mad Weird Matt Ward.

Just trying to assemble pieces of the puzzle! :p

However, as it was said, GW gave us just enough to speculate ad infinitum, and we'll probably never know more. But I'm currently trying to find an original theme to assemble a small eldar force, and Altansar could be a nice candidate! :)

Nazrax
21-12-2012, 09:41
Why not Necron tech being able to survive the warp? They have Null fields and other such devices strong enough to shield entire planets from warp activities. Perhaps not if the planet was in the eye but who knows? the necrons thematically for a while were rather anti-chaos and as far as I know they havent changed too much. And since they use the webway they could very well go in and out of the eye much like the eldar do. It is probably also safer for necrons to go in and out of the eye than any other race in the galaxy. Heck Trazyn could possible stroll through the eye in the webway sight-seeing and gathering various toys as he goes.

In Atlas Infernal their are eldar rangers and Inquisitor Czevak and his retinue on a Daemon world and iirc they got there through the webway. I wouldnt be surprised if we get some BL books about the necrons fighting on a Daemon world in the eye. They could be collecting artifacts, hunting someone or something, retreating across the planet because of collapsed webway portals, etc. etc. Hell it would be awesome if there was something about Trazyn digging around for eldar spirit stones on a Crone world.


Back to the OP-I get the feeling that the IoM is still reeling from Cadia and Abbadon. They arent too concerned about the eldar at this point. I would also think that the IoM has no idea where Altansar is. As said before the IoM has quite abit on their plate at this time. I think there were some good speculations as what could or did happen to them shortly after coming out of the eye.

The nice thing about the story is there isnt much said so it leaves tons and tons of room to build upon. Go crazy have fun!

@Chysalis- I like your idea with the necron trading for the spectral chorus. Gives the idea of some really questionable stuff going on that doesnt even have chaos involved. And which would just be more fuel for the fire for something even more wild, crazy and complex to come streaking out of the eye and really cluster-f*ek 3 major factions. How funny would that be? All in all i think this could be the start of a cool side story/game supplement. Wouldnt have to have anything change all that much if GW was feeling conservtive but the possibilities could be explored.

Shamana
21-12-2012, 10:03
Why not Necron tech being able to survive the warp?

Well, previous fluff iirc had the warp as an Anathema to the necrons, but that was before they started using the Webway. Also, you'd expect the webway to be damaged and very dangerous in places where the warp and the reality overlap, such as in the eye - the webway is meant to function on the boundary between the two, so what happens when the boundary doesn't exist?

Eldar rangers, who are supposedly experts in navigating the warp, I could see getting to a Demon world with sufficient detailing on just how they got there and that it took them some effort. But necrons traipsing around in the Eye itself and making deals with a lost craftworld? I find that over the top and frankly stupid.

I personally also dislike it because it makes Trazyn even more of a plot monster who gets in on everyone and everything. Not only does have (genuine, we are to believe) copies of Cthulhu knows what, but he's been in the Eye, making deals with the lost Eldar craftworld, implanting himself in yet another canon story. Ain't he just totalllly awesome?

Chrysalis
21-12-2012, 10:57
I'm pretty sure that whoever wrote Codex: Necron threw Altansar name as he would have thrown any other, not even having a single clue abut what a "spectral chorus" is... On one hand it gives a lot of liberty to create something, on the other hand I find it quite frustrating! I don't want to customize 30+ guardians and then learn in the next codex that what happened to them is something completely different :)

Menthak
22-12-2012, 01:11
Just to throw my two cents into this:

Just because they were in the eye of terror doesn't mean they were noticed, the craftword (even if it is the biggest that has been speculation) is still tiny compared to the Eye of terror. Plus Eldar must have there own version of a Gellar field, or atleast some cloaking from the warp, otherwise they're just gagging for a good Invasion. In addition, if they were affected by the Warp, it doesn't mean something incredibad (Usually does, but there are times when it's not that bad) for example, the Legion of the Damned, whilst wasting away, are still loyal.

As for Necrons, from what I see & hear about them they're everywhere, all the time, with their non-existent metal noses in everyone's buisness, next you'll be hearing about Trazyn getting Aun'va's head to go with his Zoat exhibit. so just assume whatever they do is possible and do what I do (Cry myself to sleep worrying about the new fluff)

Wyrmwood
23-12-2012, 13:22
Time does not flow clearly in the Warp. Perhaps it's as simple as the Craftworld being caught in the Eye for sixty seconds and when they emerge, 10,000 years has passed. I don't see the problem.

Lord Damocles
23-12-2012, 16:25
The Craftworld Alurmen already used Necron technologies in an attempt to shield themselves from Chaotic forces. It didn't end well - everyone died.
('The Cerberus War: Endgame' in Battlefleet Gothic Magazine #13)