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View Full Version : Why is the point value totally off in the new starter set



thomas
24-08-2012, 22:41
I was reading the 6th edition starter set thread in rumours. As I was looking at the cool models it hit me. Dark angels have 3 HQs, a unit of 10 marines, 5 terminators and 3 bikes even without any upgrades that is over 800 points. Now Chaos have 1 HQ, 6 chosen, 20 cultist and something called a helbrute (dreadnought) that is about 300 point (if chosen isn't armed with powerweapons and about 360 if they are) + the price for the 20 cultist!! Now if the armies in the starter even should have a chance to be close to the same point cost the cultist should have to be about 20-25 points each!

mrtn
24-08-2012, 22:56
They're off because you're buying a box of cool models. You're not buying a self contained game.

Nymie_the_Pooh
24-08-2012, 23:07
I imagine the points gap will close some when the new Chaos codex is released. The sets haven't been as big as a disparity as this one seems to be at first glance, but they are rarely even point levels in either of GW's big two games. That said, I imagine it has more to do with getting the amount of plastic to be similar between the two sides over matching the actual points values.

KingDeath
24-08-2012, 23:09
They're off because you're buying a box of cool models. You're not buying a self contained game.

Oddly enough the addition of a rulebook the background story, which pits these two armies against each other, points to the contrary.
Tbh, i can't remember a single starterset where the spessmuhreen army didn't enjoy a comfortable points advantage.
On the bright side Chaos gets the better miniatures ( which will hopefully soon appear on ebay...daddy needs a bunch of chosen :D )

ftayl5
24-08-2012, 23:12
I think the Hellbrute might be something a little more than just a a dreadnaught, which might close the gap a bit.

A.T.
24-08-2012, 23:18
I was reading the 6th edition starter set thread in rumours. As I was looking at the cool models it hit me. Dark angels have 3 HQs, a unit of 10 marines, 5 terminators and 3 bikes even without any upgrades that is over 800 points. Now Chaos have 1 HQ, 6 chosen, 20 cultist and something called a helbrute (dreadnought) that is about 300 pointJust 2 HQs for the DA afaik - captain and librarian. ~700-800 with gear.

Don't know where you get 300 for the chaos side- the hellbrute alone will be at least half that with a mark. Probably 150-200 for the lord tooled up, then 100+ points for the cultists and probably the same for the chosen, 500-600.

If the marines are under equipped and the CSM are geared up to the eyeballs with marks and an uberlord you'd probably get two equally costed forces out of that

boogle
24-08-2012, 23:20
as there are 6 Chosen, it should be pretty easy to convert to a sorceror

chromedog
24-08-2012, 23:27
Because it's a starter.
The last two weren't balanced - GW doesn't DO balance, after all. It would upset their swings and pendulums thought processes.

Avian
24-08-2012, 23:29
I wonder why the additional, limited model weren't a Chaos one.

Abaddonshand
25-08-2012, 00:07
Because Dark Angels may end up getting a new Codex before chaos - that's my prediction based on the WD spines and the fact that the back inside page of the latest WD apparently has a photo of dark angels and the caption "next month"

TheBearminator
25-08-2012, 00:09
Because it's a starter.
The last two weren't balanced - GW doesn't DO balance, after all. It would upset their swings and pendulums thought processes.

They'll always enjoy advantages. They're always included, always with more points than their opponents. GW must think that marine players are intellectually inferior in some way, or why should they need the advantage?

But 40k IS after all the great Space Marine game. All other races are of minor importance. Filling-in. Makes me sad. According to the last four starter sets marines are involved in every single armed battle in the 40k universe. This time against there evil twins. Boooring! Please give us something else, only once!

KingDeath
25-08-2012, 00:09
Because Dark Angels may end up getting a new Codex before chaos - that's my prediction based on the WD spines and the fact that the back inside page of the latest WD apparently has a photo of dark angels and the caption "next month"

Yay, even more time i can spend with that utterly useless abomination that is the current chaos dex \o/

FashaTheDog
25-08-2012, 00:33
Seriously balance doesn't matter with this set at all because most people who buy it are going to have both armies (or a loyalist that is close enough) and simply add the models into their already established forces, convert the other half of the set to make one army out of the whole lot (which is great for new players), and/or split a few sets with friends. I would guess that the Chaos half will likely be the more sought after side due to amazing models, but with the vast legions of loyalist players out there, the Dark Angels will not go to waste, although I bet many will find themselves as Black Templar, Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or some other Chapter and as I said, I could quite easily see the Dark Angels models suddenly painted up as Chaos Marines too.

Besides, no starter set was anywhere as bad a the 3rd edition one where the Dark Eldar portion was so hopelessly outclassed due to the Landspeeder and people were just giving the Warrior sprues to any Dark Eldar player they could find after a year (without asking I was given at least four sets worth over the years because I was the only Dark Eldar player). At least with the second (cardboard Ork Dread, excepting), fourth, fifth, and now definitely with the sixth edition sets, there are plenty of people who want both halves.

Capussa
25-08-2012, 00:45
The Island of Blood for Warhammer gives you nice collections of models, however the high elf army is not legal the points do not add up

GodlessM
25-08-2012, 00:45
I think the Hellbrute might be something a little more than just a a dreadnaught, which might close the gap a bit.

Nope, it's just a cool looking Dreadnought with a snazzy name and all the options that will be available to vehicles in the new Dex.


Just 2 HQs for the DA afaik - captain and librarian. ~700-800 with gear.

And the Interrogator Chaplain, which makes 3.

Surgency
25-08-2012, 01:33
And the Interrogator Chaplain, which makes 3.

which is limited edition, so it doesn't count :p

Voss
25-08-2012, 01:38
I wonder why the additional, limited model weren't a Chaos one.

Well, from the pictures I've seen of the Chaplain, it isn't very good. They probably figured the sculpt wouldn't sell all that well on its own, so they tossed it in the box.



As to the original question, it is because Dark Angels are so inferior to the powers of chaos that they need the handicap.

Dangersaurus
25-08-2012, 01:43
Someone who is truly just starting should concentrate on playing fun battles first. I also mean play in the childlike sense. Next learn the rules. Save the points and balanced scenarios for when/if they start buying more figs and codices.

TheMav80
25-08-2012, 02:01
Someone who is truly just starting should concentrate on playing fun battles first. I also mean play in the childlike sense. Next learn the rules. Save the points and balanced scenarios for when/if they start buying more figs and codices.

The horrible balance in Black Reach turned two guys that I know off of the game. /shrug

Anecdotal, I know. But if I was trying to learn the game by sharing the starter box with my friend (or purchasing it myself and trying to use it to recruit friends) it would be frustrating to have one side be so outclassed. At the very least it might put them off of buying more of that army. At worst, off the game in general.

Dangersaurus
25-08-2012, 03:19
The horrible balance in Black Reach turned two guys that I know off of the game. /shrug

Well, Black Reach had two big problems too: very simplistic rules for the models and no starter scenarios. You had to buy stuff in order to unlock the fun. It really seemed geared more for vets and lapsed players than kids and newbies.

Rated_lexxx
25-08-2012, 04:01
Yay, even more time i can spend with that utterly useless abomination that is the current chaos dex \o/

Because the DA codex is really outstanding

Ronin_eX
25-08-2012, 04:18
We are also kind of assuming current rules and point costs. We already know the Dark Angels have stats that are wholly different than the current codex (WS6 up from WS5 on the Master, slight tweaks on the Librarian, 2A on the Ravenwing). I have a feeling the units may be using new codices as the base rather than old ones. And we don't yet know what special rules are in place for either force (summary didn't have those unfortunately). We should probably wait for the full rules before we can call whether the set is not balanced. A lot of this will rest on special rules methinks and we, as of yet, have no idea about that.

Edit - And as for DA vs. Chaos misery poker, can't we just agree that we both got shafted hard and join together in rage instead of letting it keep us apart. We were both sacrificed on the altar of "your codex gets to test these ideas for the real codices" and it sucks. Whoever gets released first should be happy for the other guy and we should both be happy knowing we are likely the next two releases anyways (and also the poster-child armies for 6th!). I know that when Chaos gets their update I will be cheering and watching with anticipation seeing how they get improved.

Commissar Merces
25-08-2012, 05:08
So the space marines can beat on the evil guys so everyone starts a dark angels army full of expensive bikes and terminators.

Games Workshop has never been balanced in starter sets. Ever.

susu.exp
25-08-2012, 06:49
The starter sets have been "Rules showcases" more than balanced armies for an age or two. You get a vehicle, which is a Walker, a wide variety of weapons, bikes, a unit that can DS, chosen get??? (if as rumors have it infiltrate is gone), you have some Hordish and some Elite Infantry.

EvilFuzzyDoom
25-08-2012, 07:20
To boost chaos sales as the Chaos player tries to out-buy his Marines-y opponent who's going to buy stuff anyway because marines are awesome?

Seriously though I have a feeling that the scenarios and the fact that chaos has the Helbrute will probably go a ways to evening things out. Only the terminators really stand a chance of popping the Helbrute's armor 13, after all. Just take a look at the unbalance between the Warmachine & Hordes starters and ask around - they're all capable of winning, some just require more trickery than others to get there.

ftayl5
25-08-2012, 08:16
Nope, it's just a cool looking Dreadnought with a snazzy name and all the options that will be available to vehicles in the new Dex.

Well that's anticlimactic :/

vladsimpaler
25-08-2012, 08:47
If you read the scenarios in the rules booklet that comes with Dark Vengeance then you will find that most of the scenarios are actually pretty well balanced, like bikers having to fight off hordes of Cultists. The box isn't meant for the entirety of one side to be pitted against another!

Plus the Chaos side can have lots of "hidden" upgrades. Aka everyone on the Chaos side could have the Mark of Nurgle, plus count the Chaos Lord's weapon as a Daemon Weapon, amongst other things. So no it's not totally unbalanced even then.

KingDeath
25-08-2012, 10:01
Edit - And as for DA vs. Chaos misery poker, can't we just agree that we both got shafted hard and join together in rage instead of letting it keep us apart. We were both sacrificed on the altar of "your codex gets to test these ideas for the real codices" and it sucks. Whoever gets released first should be happy for the other guy and we should both be happy knowing we are likely the next two releases anyways (and also the poster-child armies for 6th!). I know that when Chaos gets their update I will be cheering and watching with anticipation seeing how they get improved.

Hehe, at least we aren't sisters players :(

Thommy H
25-08-2012, 12:18
Hehe, at least we aren't sisters players :(

My 40K armies are Dark Angels and Sisters of Battle. Hey, I'm no fool though: in Fantasy I play Chaos Dwarfs.

On topic: this isn't a tournament game in a box. It's for scenario play and teaching the game. And since it's a starter box, I imagine the usual situation will be an experienced player teaching the game to a newbie (possibly a child or teenager). In which case, unbalanced forces make perfect sense: you give the kid the heroic Dark Angels to play against the visibly corrupt Chaos Space Marines, and he therefore gets a fighting chance to win because he (unbeknownst to him) has a slightly superior force. No one is forcing anyone to play with absolutely everything in the box either, which was also true of AoBR.

Starter boxes are usually balanced in terms of plastic, not points.

Souleater
25-08-2012, 13:29
I think Danersaurus touches on something I thought of a while back.

DV is a starter set aimed at two markets, IMO. On the one hand the DA are aimed at newer younger players. Heroic Space Marines that are simple to paint. Not too many models means they can be good to go in short order. The CSM OTOH look more like add-ons to an existing veterans army. Much more detail to paint, lots of horde models.

(This is a fuzzy generalisation, of course.)

FashaTheDog
25-08-2012, 13:55
Hey, I'm no fool though: in Fantasy I play Chaos Dwarfs.

Hot damn your army is amazing! I bought Throne of Tamurkhan for the fluff, Host rules, and just the amazing quality of the book in general. Now I am wondering how I can start a Chaos Dwarf army while expanding my Krieg one. Don't give me that "limited selection" line either; the Bretonnians have fewer units to choose from.

Spiney Norman
25-08-2012, 14:21
which is limited edition, so it doesn't count :p

And most importantly isn't included in any of the scenarios if the WD write up is anything to go by. the chaplain is included to make you feel happy, not to play the dark vengeance scenarios with.

Seriously, the pts cost of the two armies is totally irrelevant because they're not supposed to be lined up along two sides of a table and chucked at each other, they're designed to play the scenarios in the book with the models each scenario calls for using the special rules they have invented for those scenarios. You might as well try and claim that space hulk is unbalanced because 20 gene stealers and a broodlord would be unbalanced against ten terminators and a termy librarian in a straight up fight.

Clarkson
25-08-2012, 15:05
as there are 6 Chosen, it should be pretty easy to convert to a sorceror

the DA special dude is easier to convert into a sorcerer and he looks sooo generic.. it wont be hard to chaosify

MagicHat
25-08-2012, 20:24
Seriously, the pts cost of the two armies is totally irrelevant because they're not supposed to be lined up along two sides of a table and chucked at each other, they're designed to play the scenarios in the book with the models each scenario calls for using the special rules they have invented for those scenarios. You might as well try and claim that space hulk is unbalanced because 20 gene stealers and a broodlord would be unbalanced against ten terminators and a termy librarian in a straight up fight.

Mission 5, Firefight is heads on killpoints with all models.
Mission six is The hellfire stone (Relic basically) with all models.

I think that they will be frustrating for the Chaos player.

Mr. Ultra
25-08-2012, 20:44
Mission 5, Firefight is heads on killpoints with all models.
Mission six is The hellfire stone (Relic basically) with all models.

I think that they will be frustrating for the Chaos player.

And that's why we have the Crimson Nobodies instead of a more stablished Legion/Warband.

Spiney Norman
25-08-2012, 20:46
Mission 5, Firefight is heads on killpoints with all models.
Mission six is The hellfire stone (Relic basically) with all models.

I think that they will be frustrating for the Chaos player.

I'll wait to judge that when I get my hands on the scenario book, all I have to go on so far is a rather detail-light page of batrep in WD

Senbei
25-08-2012, 23:28
It's nothing new. Anyone who played "The Battle at the Farm" from the 1st ed rulebook will see that these point differences aren't as bad as some we have had (Orks had about half the points that the marines did, were armed with bolters, 2 characters... one of whom had a plasma pistol, and had to attack across open fields. Marines started in a fortified position and had a missile launcher and Pedro Cantor. I think the boyz outnumbered the marines by about 2 models.

althathir
25-08-2012, 23:31
I'll wait to judge that when I get my hands on the scenario book, all I have to go on so far is a rather detail-light page of batrep in WD

Yeah thats all i've seen as well.

I think some of why the forces are unbalanced is to add to replayability, if DA out number chaos by 200 w/ the limited model than the forces are really close if you run one hq apiece. Changing that hq really changes up the matchup, it also could have to do with the different chaos marks. There also is the possiblity that when it was being designed the points cost for the two fractions was equal in the test dexes (and still may be). Its way to early to get worked up about this stuff.

Lord Inquisitor
25-08-2012, 23:47
Bear in mind that there's no real reason for the starter set to be balanced. One big use is as the figs for store intro games, you have the two armies and then you can give someone an intro game and sell them the box afterwards that has all the models in the intro game. So Dark Angels might win often, so what? If it is staff member vs potential player, the staffer can give the "good guys" to the customer and that gives them a built in advantage and the staffer can use this to lose gracefully. If it is two customers against each other, one of them is going to lose anyway, they won't know it's because there's an imbalance of forces. After that, if they buy the box and play it at home, soon they should graduate to playing with points values and obviously GW's plan is that both players need to buy more figures, so it doesn't really matter if the core forces are balanced there either.

TheDungen
26-08-2012, 07:08
it might have been sai but its since it a started box, its meant for beginners, and the space amrines are usually numericlaly fewer though not as few as they should be the player playing them will still think its unfair his opponent gets more guys then he, then he plays and realises just hoe good his guys are.

RunepriestRidcully
26-08-2012, 10:34
How many models in the chaos army can negate a 2+ save? that's my main problem in that it seems the terminators could just wade in, and the majority of the chaos players attacks would not be able to hurt them.

Chem-Dog
26-08-2012, 11:01
I was reading the 6th edition starter set thread in rumours. As I was looking at the cool models it hit me. Dark angels have 3 HQs, a unit of 10 marines, 5 terminators and 3 bikes even without any upgrades that is over 800 points. Now Chaos have 1 HQ, 6 chosen, 20 cultist and something called a helbrute (dreadnought) that is about 300 point (if chosen isn't armed with powerweapons and about 360 if they are) + the price for the 20 cultist!! Now if the armies in the starter even should have a chance to be close to the same point cost the cultist should have to be about 20-25 points each!

We don't know how much the Chaos Lord, Chosen (decked out with all kinds of Power Weapons, I might point out) and Hellbrute Dreadnought are in points. It's a bit previous to assume the PV's are so heinously slanted.

However, it's not hard to believe there is a slant. The set is designed to introduce players to the game, with a selection of cool looking models, not to provide two balanced starter armies. There are some obvious strengths and weaknesses in the two forces even without knowing their relative value.

AlphariusOmegon20
26-08-2012, 11:48
I added up the EXACT points of the DA, based on WYSIWYG. It comes out to exactly 825 points, using the current DA book.

If you assume that the Hellbrute is a dreadnought, points wise, and use the current Chaos book for your points values, you come out with exactly 413 points, just for the lord, Chosen and Hellbrute. I'd guess that cultists will cost points wise somewhere around an IG guardsmen squad cost for 10 models, and there are 20 cultists, so the chaos side should come in somewhere in the 500 - 600 point range.

I don't know about you guys, but roughly 200 points is not big of a points discrepancy to me.

KingDeath
26-08-2012, 13:05
I added up the EXACT points of the DA, based on WYSIWYG. It comes out to exactly 825 points, using the current DA book.

If you assume that the Hellbrute is a dreadnought, points wise, and use the current Chaos book for your points values, you come out with exactly 413 points, just for the lord, Chosen and Hellbrute. I'd guess that cultists will cost points wise somewhere around an IG guardsmen squad cost for 10 models, and there are 20 cultists, so the chaos side should come in somewhere in the 500 - 600 point range.

I don't know about you guys, but roughly 200 points is not big of a points discrepancy to me.

If the cultists cost as much as ig squads then the points total is around 523/533 points for chaos ( depending on the price of the special weapons ).
That's roughly 300 points less than the DA points total which is a rather big difference.

The bearded one
26-08-2012, 13:17
Because startersets are never balanced. Not in fantasy either. They're simply outrageiusly cool.


I wonder why the additional, limited model weren't a Chaos one.

Because the chaos models are sickeningly cool all around anyway :p

Fabian3rd
26-08-2012, 13:56
If wanting to balance the forces for a standard battle what one or two unit addition would you make to the Chaos side?
There own terminators, raptors, daemons, what do people think?

theunwantedbeing
26-08-2012, 14:02
Why are they not balanced?

To encourage you to buy more models obviously.
It gives a varied selection so new gamers get an idea of everything and then they get to buy extra stuff they think is cool.

eg.
Hellbrute for Chaos, The marines don't get them but their rules give access to dreadnaughts
So the marine player wants a dreadnaught, or 3 or 9 or a million

It's there to be a reasonably fun starter set.
They throw in the limited edition model to encourage sales because average joe is a sucker for anything "limited edition" as are about a million idiots with too much money on ebay who are all too willing to spend 3-5x the normal cost for a "limited edition" thing.

The rest of it is simply there to drive sales.

TheMav80
26-08-2012, 16:41
Bear in mind that there's no real reason for the starter set to be balanced. One big use is as the figs for store intro games, you have the two armies and then you can give someone an intro game and sell them the box afterwards that has all the models in the intro game. So Dark Angels might win often, so what? If it is staff member vs potential player, the staffer can give the "good guys" to the customer and that gives them a built in advantage and the staffer can use this to lose gracefully. If it is two customers against each other, one of them is going to lose anyway, they won't know it's because there's an imbalance of forces. After that, if they buy the box and play it at home, soon they should graduate to playing with points values and obviously GW's plan is that both players need to buy more figures, so it doesn't really matter if the core forces are balanced there either.

It works with store demos I suppose.

Doesn't work as well if it is two people interested in the game who go in on a starter set.

Caitsidhe
26-08-2012, 17:06
<chuckles> I suspect the stats on everything sucks something awful, including the Hellbrute and awesome looking Chosen. That is why they released it BEFORE the Codex. Some people (like me) won't buy a useless model on the table.

The bearded one
26-08-2012, 17:17
I'm just gonna stick with GW picking a random selection of units that'd be cool to make. Sure, dark angels might have more points, but the exhausting coolness of the chaos models makes up for the points difference tenfold :p




Also, do note that while the points might be off, the strength of the armies not always is. In battle for skull pass, the dwarfs had more points, but that pathetic unit of 12 warriors with shields would be overrun quite easily by 1 of those blocks of 20 night goblins, even though the 20 goblins were cheaper. Similarly in island of blood, the unit of 10 lothern seaguard is barely worth bothering with and the 5 reavers are nothing to write home about either. Assault on black reach might've had more points worth of marines, but if that mob of boyz with the warboss got the charge on anything of the marines (barring the dread, maybe), it'd probably be wiped off the table in an avalanche of 40 str4 attacks (and the boss's attacks for things that were dead 'ard, like terminators).

In the case of dark vengeance, the cultists will be barely a nuisance, and the chosen fairly few, but the chaos hellbrute (it's a dread, right?) will be a chore to kill for the marines, who will need a lucky plasma shot, or hope most of their terminators aren't killed before striking.


They throw in the limited edition model to encourage sales because average joe is a sucker for anything "limited edition" as are about a million idiots with too much money on ebay who are all too willing to spend 3-5x the normal cost for a "limited edition" thing.

But where's the border between 'limited edition moneygrab' and 'cool limited little extra'?

Dice
26-08-2012, 17:45
Well, I'm a first time 40k player and I'll be going halves with a friend on this set. We've got a bit of experience with fantasy under our belts (Island of Blood, wahey!) and we fancy giving the much vaunted 40k a go. Given that we're going in 50/50 for 25 a pop it seems a pretty tidy introduction to the game, hope the scenarios make things as fun as they've been rumoured to.

Based purely on the models alone I also fancy a box of Chaos Raptors but a friend in the know says they're useless? Anyways, this boxed set seems quite exciting and it's worked at enticing new players in the form of myself and a friend!

GodlessM
26-08-2012, 19:21
which is limited edition, so it doesn't count :p

Well then none of it counts since LE is the only type of box available right now.

The bearded one
26-08-2012, 19:38
Well then none of it counts since LE is the only type of box available right now.

in advance order though, no?

althathir
26-08-2012, 19:50
How many models in the chaos army can negate a 2+ save? that's my main problem in that it seems the terminators could just wade in, and the majority of the chaos players attacks would not be able to hurt them.

Hellbrute, chaos lord has a plasma pistol, chosen with fist, and a chosen with axe. honestly though small arms fire is what works on termies in my experience.


It works with store demos I suppose.

Doesn't work as well if it is two people interested in the game who go in on a starter set.

Sure it does they just need to restrict their lists to a lower amount (500- 600 should be fine). If they want everything they'll ever need in a starter than 40k isn't the game for them.

Mini77
26-08-2012, 20:56
I added up the EXACT points of the DA, based on WYSIWYG. It comes out to exactly 825 points, using the current DA book.

It's 840 points for the basic set (the master has a combi-plasma which is often missed as is the chainfist on the termies). 975 if you include the chaplain. Better value than a battleforce.

ftayl5
26-08-2012, 22:23
Including all the visible upgrades (power weapons, plasma guns etc) I get (not including the limited edition guy) 840pts of Dark Angels, using current rules.
For Chaos, using the current rules and treating the hellbrute as a dreadnought, I get 413 + cost of cultists, which won't be more than 200pts I'd think.

However when the new DA book comes out it's very possible a lot of stuff will become cheaper and this might balance out a bit. For example Space Marine tactical squads get most of their heavy weapons for free whereas DA have to pay for them. Their terminators also cost more than the space marine ones, for no apparent reason. So I think it's possible a lot of DA stuff will become cheaper.
When the Chaos codex comes out, their cost may go up too (though I can't imagine why).

MagicHat
26-08-2012, 22:51
Their terminators also cost more than the space marine ones, for no apparent reason. So I think it's possible a lot of DA stuff will become cheaper.

They have Fearless, Deathwing assault and can mix shooty/assaulty terminators.

Clarkson
26-08-2012, 22:58
They have Fearless, Deathwing assault and can mix shooty/assaulty terminators.

chuck in the CML and its worth the extra points flat out

I just hope Chaos don't lose the choice to buy the champion status.. and have a fixed sarge and 4 guys termies have turned into

FashaTheDog
27-08-2012, 00:24
I think folks are looking at this the wrong way. From a Dornian Heresy point of view (since my Chaos army is Imperial Fists with other Legions), I see a rather decent starter army for any Chaos player:

Lord with a plasma pistol and daemon weapon
Sorcerer (assumes Doombolt)
Lord with a power sword and combi-plasma
Lord with a plasma pistol and power maul
Dreadnought with multi-melta
6 Chosen with a total of two power weapons, a power claw, and a pair of lightning claws
5 Terminators including a champion, two power claws, a chainfist, and a weird looking reaper autocannon
10 Chaos Marines that have a champion with a plasma pistol as well as two plasma guns (one of which is just over sized; must be an older model)
3 Chaos Bikers of which one is a champion and another has a flamer
20 Cultists

That gives you 1,322 points of Dornian Heresy Dark Angel Chaos Marines (there is the Fallen in the normal 40K universe I suppose...) without factoring in the cost of the Cultists. With them and a few marks and other tweaks, like to the Sorcerer's power or holstered plasma pistols, you could probably have 1,500 point Chaos collection to start, albeit after dropping two of the HQ, you would be down to a 1,250 point game, but that is still a very good start to an army and you get the main rules.

lolplates
27-08-2012, 02:34
Hmm looks like a purchase for me :)

Those models are boss! Pity about the name crimson slaughter or what ever.
Was the 3rd edition the only one to have terrain?

FashaTheDog
27-08-2012, 03:20
Second edition had card ruins and a card Ork Dreadnought. Fourth had the crashed Aquila Lander too.

Spiney Norman
27-08-2012, 08:21
Second edition had card ruins and a card Ork Dreadnought. Fourth had the crashed Aquila Lander too.

Aahh, that crashed Aquila is probably my favourite terrain piece of all time, they just don't make em like that any more...

Konovalev
27-08-2012, 16:39
Was the fullt stats booklet for the set leaked or just a page or two? I ask because maybe the chosen have 2 wounds for example and so would cost more and lead to a better balance between the forces.

brionl
27-08-2012, 17:36
Or, just maybe, this is a long-shot here...
The points values just aren't balanced? GW doesn't care about balance, none of the other starter sets have ever had balanced point totals. Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp?

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2012, 17:41
Was the fullt stats booklet for the set leaked or just a page or two? I ask because maybe the chosen have 2 wounds for example and so would cost more and lead to a better balance between the forces.

I really hope Chosen are suitably badass. I don't care about the balance in the starter set but the Chosen really suffer from being kind of "meh".

Tay051173096
27-08-2012, 17:44
I really hope Chosen are suitably badass. I don't care about the balance in the starter set but the Chosen really suffer from being kind of "meh".

If they arn't then they will make great aspiring champs.

d6juggernaut
27-08-2012, 18:14
People who knows it's unbalanced plays the game enough to add models into either side to balance them out.

People who doesn't know treats it as a casual board game, thus doesn't care.

Iusedtobespacemarine
27-08-2012, 18:33
Nope, it's just a cool looking Dreadnought with a snazzy name and all the options that will be available to vehicles in the new Dex.

And the Interrogator Chaplain, which makes 3.

As someone pointed out, the Chaplain is a limited model, and also rumours has it that DA Chaplains are going to be like BA Sag priest and be elite unit of 1-3. So all the DA side is getting is either and limited edition hq or a limited edition elite. Regardless, those are some of the best looking model for DA players in a long while.

Megiddo
27-08-2012, 19:30
So, when do you think the new Codices be released? I've been interested in CSM for a while, and DA sound pretty interesting too. I've been an Ork player, primarily, so this set will possibly get me started on a new army. I'll probably wind up buying the new Codex for both armies. Unbalanced or not, DV seems to be a damn cool set, and will give me a taste for both Armies.

sean_scanlon2000
28-08-2012, 06:01
seriously... its not intended to be a balanced list.... its a narrative story thats driven so that both players have fun. buy it for the mini's if your a veteran or buy it to play with friends if your a noob enough said.

fujinden
28-08-2012, 07:30
in 2 edition of starter was 5 missions ) (my first space marine was from that starter). I think new starter should have missions from new book or something else otherwise no balance :mad:

AlphariusOmegon20
28-08-2012, 09:56
It's 840 points for the basic set (the master has a combi-plasma which is often missed as is the chainfist on the termies). 975 if you include the chaplain. Better value than a battleforce.

Actually I DID count the combi plas and the chain fist in my numbers. I apparently forgot something else somewhere.

But you are right, It is 840 for the DA, not 825.

madprophet
29-08-2012, 05:58
Recently, it seems the GW starters are just boxes of cool models to push certain armies...

The bearded one
29-08-2012, 18:35
Recently, it seems the GW starters are just boxes of cool models to push certain armies...

Boxes of cool models, how dare they!?

TheBearminator
29-08-2012, 20:33
Aahh, that crashed Aquila is probably my favourite terrain piece of all time, they just don't make em like that any more...

Agree, I really like that piece of terrain. It looks good on the battlefield and is easy to place models upon.

wyvirn
29-08-2012, 23:30
Not all points are made equal. 300 conscripts are a good chunk of points, but really can't deal with the ~150 point Doom of Malantai in a spore, or a Leman Russ tank. I see the dread being a major obstacle to DA victories. It's unlikely that the dread will be take out from range, and the key will a race to kill the dread or the chainfist termi. As long as the two armies are fairly balanced *against each other*, I don't really mind if the points are off for the starter set.

MagicHat
30-08-2012, 10:35
Not all points are made equal. 300 conscripts are a good chunk of points, but really can't deal with the ~150 point Doom of Malantai in a spore, or a Leman Russ tank. I see the dread being a major obstacle to DA victories. It's unlikely that the dread will be take out from range, and the key will a race to kill the dread or the chainfist termi. As long as the two armies are fairly balanced *against each other*, I don't really mind if the points are off for the starter set.

If they start 24" away from each other, the tactical squad, Librarian, CM and terminators can inflict great casualties at the cultists and chosen apart from a distance, and then beat up anything still alive in CC.
Frankly, the tactical squad, Librarian and CM could be enough for that, I will have to try it out. That would leave the terminators and Ravenwing to take on the helbrute.