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View Full Version : The cultist squads... it is that great?



Sithlord
26-08-2012, 14:13
Let's see from fluff... cultist are weak (if not un-trained) and fanatics cannon fodder. So maybe in the new CSM they would like have like Ws 2 Bs 2 St 3 To 3 At 1 In 3 Ld 7 but with point cost of 3(maybe 4) and it's functionality depends on the character who lead them. (mind you this is a speculation thread :p )

totgeboren
26-08-2012, 14:44
Their profile is available in the rumour round-up, and I think they came in at I think 4 pts per model (it says X in the roundup, but I think someone in the know said 4 pts. We will see soon enough). They would also benefit quite a bit by being lead by a Dark Apostle.

Sithlord
26-08-2012, 14:48
Their profile is available in the rumour round-up, and I think they came in at I think 4 pts per model (it says X in the roundup, but I think someone in the know said 4 pts. We will see soon enough). They would also benefit quite a bit by being lead by a Dark Apostle.

4pts? that's exactly the same cost as IG's conscript :p guess they will have that puny stats that I said above eh :p

totgeboren
26-08-2012, 14:51
4pts? that's exactly the same cost as IG's conscript :p guess they will have that puny stats that I said above eh :p

As said, just take a look in the rumour roundup of the 6ed thread. Same stats as a guardsman but with a 6+ save, which is really nice for 4 pts (if that is true). However, no one fears a guardsman, and they will be without good weapons and orders, so 4 pts might be a fair cost considering what you get.

A.T.
26-08-2012, 15:05
so 4 pts might be a fair cost considering what you get.... until someone paints them green and pairs them with epidemius.

Killgore
26-08-2012, 15:30
They are a cheap meatshield to protect expensive Space Marines and also double up as handy objective baby sitters

Having a source of cheap troops in an otherwise expensive elite army is a good thing!

Kijamon
26-08-2012, 15:35
They are a cheap meatshield to protect expensive Space Marines and also double up as handy objective baby sitters

Having a source of cheap troops in an otherwise expensive elite army is a good thing!

Spot on. No one is saying they will win you games with amazing elite fighting or shooting. They are saying "What elite army has access to this level of meat shield?"

Also, the rumoured zombie unit that Typhus may be able to select makes cultists a no brainer for me!

Scammel
26-08-2012, 15:37
The rumours I've seen suggest 5 points, not 4 - they were remarked as being 'not quite as cheap as Conscripts'. Units of 30 with Apostles for Hatred and Fearless could prove to be tarpits with a bit of a bite, like Ork Boys.

Oh, and btw, Typhus also apprently renders them non-scoring, so his blessing might not be a total no-brainer.

Kijamon
26-08-2012, 15:45
Oh, and btw, Typhus also apprently renders them non-scoring, so his blessing might not be a total no-brainer.

The rumours were feel no pain and fearless though! I could live with that. Zombie plague... hoooooo!

Scammel
26-08-2012, 15:58
As cool as it is, I don't think there's much competitive value in it. If they're not scoring, they're assaulting/tarpitting. With Typhus they'll stick around longer but lack any sort of bite, whilst an Apostle will probably give you a modicum of both for much cheaper. Still, MAXIMUM cool factor and Zombies are easy to paint.

TheMav80
26-08-2012, 16:40
Spot on. No one is saying they will win you games with amazing elite fighting or shooting. They are saying "What elite army has access to this level of meat shield?"



All of them, thanks to the new Allies rules. :P

Sithlord
26-08-2012, 16:51
The rumours I've seen suggest 5 points, not 4 - they were remarked as being 'not quite as cheap as Conscripts'. Units of 30 with Apostles for Hatred and Fearless could prove to be tarpits with a bit of a bite, like Ork Boys.

Oh, and btw, Typhus also apprently renders them non-scoring, so his blessing might not be a total no-brainer.

oh that's great... with exception that apostles must always challenge, which pretty much bugger when you actually fighting a single night immortal CC monstrous combat character (such as dark eldar archon or hive tyrant :p ).. other than that, if you are fighting a non character killer unit. This makes them a great cheap tarpit unit that give major annoyance to anyone :p

@The mav 80
not everyone can wield imperial guard army, well.... maybe ork gretchin might work :p

Killgore
26-08-2012, 16:56
All of them, thanks to the new Allies rules. :P


Which means that Chaos Marines will have their Allies slots free for Daemons!

Hurray for Cultists!

Scammel
26-08-2012, 18:05
with exception that apostles must always challenge, which pretty much bugger when you actually fighting a single night immortal CC monstrous combat character

Well, considering Kelly's love for Chaos combat characters I suspect even an Apostle might be pretty tasty in a fight.

Azazel
26-08-2012, 18:11
I'll probably take a cheap unit of Cultists to get the mandatory Troops squad for my CSM Allies in my Daemon army.

40 points and a cheap lord, then add the new Flyer and perhaps some Obliterators or something.

loveless
26-08-2012, 18:22
I've been wanting Cultists back in Chaos Marines since the 3.5 codex died. I don't care if they're suck-tacular on the tabletop, the theme of desperate men and women praying their loyalty to the dark gods will grant them some sort of upper hand against the Emperor's Finest...well, it just makes me happy.

It looks like nearly every starter set Cultist has a duplicate, though. Depending on how they're assembled on the sprue, I'll either have to kit-bash or get out the greenstuff and fix that little issue.

Honestly, the only thing that would make me even happier than having cultists back is being able to take a Marine to lead them.

The bearded one
26-08-2012, 18:42
Meatshields must never be underestimated, for their meat is very shieldy indeed.

Scammel
26-08-2012, 18:46
Despite what I've been saying about the Apostles and stuff, I'm beginning to doubt Cultists will make a showing in my standard list. As objective-sitters they're alright but I prefer such units to have a bit more bite to enable them to stand up to enemy attentions. Currently I'm using a Guard Veteran contingent with Plasma, Autocannons and an AGL for this purpose and though it's a little pricey it does a fantastic job of keeping hold of objectives whilst providing solid fire support. Whilst I'll definitely get the models and experiment with them, I don't see them as being particularly useful.

Abaraxas
27-08-2012, 10:27
I dont care about the rules/stats, but am overjoyed that there are dedicated chaos cultist minis available from GW again (Im thinking of scavvys/muties)

blackcherry
27-08-2012, 10:56
I dont care about the rules/stats, but am overjoyed that there are dedicated chaos cultist minis available from GW again (Im thinking of scavvys/muties)

I pretty much agree with this and what loveless has said. I'm holding my breath for the new codex (because I have a sneaking suspicion that, consciously or not, most long time CSM players want the 3.5 codex back and this won't be that) but the inclusion of Cultists with actual models fills me with joy.

TheFang
27-08-2012, 14:08
Cultists have me excited about 40k again. Let's hope there's a proper unit with the CSM release in the same style but including other special weapons.

kanekaneo
27-08-2012, 14:26
The rumours were feel no pain and fearless though! I could live with that. Zombie plague... hoooooo!

I can see some awesome zombie conversions with nurgle and cultists :D. I read a book ages, with the Raven Guard and a nurgle infested world, with loads of zombies. Can't remember its name, but it was a good read.

Bonzai
27-08-2012, 22:00
Cultists were the #1 thing that I was excited about for the new CSM dex. A blob of 30 fearless wounds can be a tough thing to dislodge from an objective. As a cheap mandatory slot filler, they free up points for the more killy stuff. Also that there is a rumor that possessed vehicles can eat a model to repair it's self. If that is the case, then Cultists make the perfect sacrificial lambs. Over all I am very excited about the possible tactical uses for them in the codex.

insectum7
27-08-2012, 22:13
I gotta agree with the posts above. Cultists are such a core aspect of 40K and Chaos imagery that it was a damn shame they weren't really supported in any way other than conversions and forge-world. It's really good to see an attempt to bring them into the mainstream again.

totgeboren
28-08-2012, 01:32
I too am really happy about the cultists. I can't help but think about one of the many wish-list threads regarding CSM that popped up in w40k General here on Warseer, that was organised as a vote. I think at least half the posters voted 'cultists' as the number one thing they should include in a new codex. I'm happy GW seems to have listened.

I personally have been using the official GW rules for the last eleven years, still available on the intertubes, if you know where to look!

http://web.archive.org/web/20020602221358/http://www.gamesworkshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/chaos/chaoscultists.htm

Xerkics
28-08-2012, 03:19
Cheap cultists troops mean you can have blobs of troops and still pig out on elite units/flyers etc whatever = more models sold for gw

sean_scanlon2000
28-08-2012, 05:36
why not? if their dirt cheap you run them up and then they die. you opponents not killing you marines instead hes killing your poor cultists. if he focuses on the marines tehn eventually he will be swarmed with a horde of maniac devotees of the blood god :) either way the blood flows and i collect skulls for khorne.... where is the downside in this again?

Sithlord
28-08-2012, 06:50
hah, started to think what of crazy list we gonna have... 3 defilers marching forward back up by 30 cultist (just behind them) plus apostle to make them fearless... defiler get bumpy ride being shot by enemies causing lot of hull point reduction , weapon destroyed and immo... eat up those juicy cultist to restore their health again :p

OgreBattle
28-08-2012, 07:07
do meat shields really work in 40k though?

Orks have access to them, grots. They are overlooked for the 6pt boy who can kill. Orks have access to super-elite nob troops and they don't particularly synergize with the grots either.

Grey Knights have access to 4pt shields for their double-Elite troops... though they are limited to 12 men per squad and an HQ choice to troop 'em.


IG... the conscript is the meat shield and the veteran is the elite, and it's mainly the elite by themselves in transports that get spammed

Excessus
28-08-2012, 07:10
Different armies, different functions...

sean_scanlon2000
28-08-2012, 11:02
ah hmm watching kharn kill cultists to get to grips with the enemy.... now that sounds so very tempting

El_Capitan
28-08-2012, 11:45
You could also use them as renegade Guardsmen in an allied Imperial Guard Faction. Going to do this as it lets me take artillery in my Iron Warriors army!

Scammel
28-08-2012, 13:22
do meat shields really work in 40k though?

Orks have access to them, grots. They are overlooked for the 6pt boy who can kill. Orks have access to super-elite nob troops and they don't particularly synergize with the grots either.


My stance on the question. Some 'tarpits' just aren't really up to the job and think Cultists may well fall into this category.

A.T.
28-08-2012, 13:26
do meat shields really work in 40k though?There is a forgeworld army based around them - tyrant's legion has a compulsory 20+ strong cultist unit (at 3 points a model) who can dive infront of bullets to give the marines behind +1 to their cover saves.

It's an interesting setup - lines of meatshields, blobs of marines, and then rows of artillery.

Blinder
28-08-2012, 16:32
do meat shields really work in 40k though?

Orks have access to them, grots. They are overlooked for the 6pt boy who can kill. Orks have access to super-elite nob troops and they don't particularly synergize with the grots either.

Grey Knights have access to 4pt shields for their double-Elite troops... though they are limited to 12 men per squad and an HQ choice to troop 'em.


IG... the conscript is the meat shield and the veteran is the elite, and it's mainly the elite by themselves in transports that get spammed

Orks and IG both have meat-shields for... meat-shields. Sure, you can buy grot-squads to hide your boyz, but the grots cost almost as much. So, just buy more boyz and stick a small group in front of the big group or just have a really big group. Ditto with IG... Conscripts have to be bought with platoons, and they're a whole point cheaper. So, if you're really pinching points you can throw some in to screen something, but it's often hard to justify not upgrading to a "real" guardsman. Also, the "elite" veteran squad isn't exactly super-valuable unless it's dug in somewhere (and thus doesn't need shields) or in the aforementioned transport (where it becomes the transport you're trying to shield).

GK... seem to generally be able to out-strip any cannon fodder they can bring, so it's less that they couldn't use them and more that what they can use isn't worth the hassle.

Meanwhile, CSM have expensive base infantry that really don't want to hang out in the open, and expensive specialist units that often have to walk around and/or are looking to get stuck-in via assault. 4-5 point disposable goons make a nice way to let those specialist units walk around at a lot less risk, and if I've got a choice between a unit of berzerkers or whatever taking a ton of overwatch fire or a unit of said goons taking the overwatch fire...

So, as long as there's a way to shove them into a transport (to keep up with assault troops or just get into cover-granting position ASAP) I can see chaos being able to make *very good* use of meatshields, on account of having stuff that's actually worth shielding.

Aluinn
28-08-2012, 16:51
My stance on the question. Some 'tarpits' just aren't really up to the job and think Cultists may well fall into this category.

Grots are S/T 2 and have a 12" range Assault 1 gun, though. They also don't have a morale rule nearly as good as Fearless (which for the Cultists probably requires an Apostle, admittedly, but still). I'll grant they're cheaper, but Grots aren't up to the task because they melt away far too quickly, may get in the way of advancing Orks, and beyond that rarely kill anything at all. 30 Cultists with autoguns and 3 heavy stubbers or flamers actually put out reasonable dakka and are likely to mow down some infantry, and with extra T and Fearless over Grots they're really in a class above--I know that's not saying much, but the point is, they're bargain Troops who perform the function of, well, most Troops in the game, not just a meatshield. That being said, they're likely to appear in some competitive CSM lists for exactly the same reason that you often see 10 Grots in competitive Ork lists, even if Grots are generally terrible; they are, if nothing else, a very cheap scoring unit that can just hide, going to ground if they're ever shot at, and claim one of the objectives near your DZ, provided an opponent can't get there with anything to assault them. However, I also think you might see them in larger units with Apostles.

(That Orks have the kustom force field to give most of their army cover all the time doesn't help Grots, either.)

30 Cultists with an Apostle are much more like 30 Guardsmen with a Commissar than they are like 30 Grots, to put it another way, and a 30-Guardsman blob isn't usually there to shield other units; it's there because it's a hard-to-get-rid-of scoring unit. If the Cultists in such a configuration happen to provide some Marines with cover at some point in the game, that's more of a bonus.

Bonzai
28-08-2012, 16:56
So, as long as there's a way to shove them into a transport (to keep up with assault troops or just get into cover-granting position ASAP) I can see chaos being able to make *very good* use of meatshields, on account of having stuff that's actually worth shielding.

Hehe... I am already having visions of a horde of Cultists to bubble wrap Titans in Apoc. No getting within 12 for Melta shots until you deal with them first.

I already have a psuedo list in mine for when the Dex comes out...

HQs: Dark Apostle, Dark Magos (counts as Warpsmith)
3x dual butcher cannon Decimators (yeah, FW is allowed here).
1-2 CSM squads with Rhinos and 2 meltas
Several squads of cuiltists
3x Defilers
Defense line with Quad gun.

Yeah.... I can't wait.

koran
28-08-2012, 18:51
More important to me that just the meat shield is the ability to have them charge a unit first, take the overwatch fire and then I can charge with the more pricey unit.

Starchild
28-08-2012, 19:29
Cultists are effectively partisan troops, the type of enemy the Sisters of Battle seem to be specialized in eliminating.

Both game-wise and background-wise, Cultists are very much like Eldar Guardians. Without special scenarios competitive gamers are likely to reject them.

IcedCrow
28-08-2012, 20:21
Because they aren't busted powerful ;)

GrogDaTyrant
28-08-2012, 20:36
do meat shields really work in 40k though?

Orks have access to them, grots. They are overlooked for the 6pt boy who can kill. Orks have access to super-elite nob troops and they don't particularly synergize with the grots either.

Grots actually work quite well, and have been working well as meatshields for a long time. Only during late 4th after the Ork codex was released, did Gretchin suffer and become regarded as 'not worth fielding', and that only lasted until 5th came around and allowed intervening units to provide cover (whereas before the grots had a rule for it).

Grots have ****-poor statlines, and are widely regarded as a joke and are not expected to accomplish anything... by everyone who isn't a veteran Ork player. Grots are still the cheapest infantry formation in the game (though arguably a point too expensive), and have what is effectively a laspistol. Their Ld is only 7, but by taking d3 wounds you can reroll it. And rerolled Ld7 is still far better than many units in the Ork codex. Meganobs for instance are just straight Ld 7, and require what has fondly been called a "Babysitter HQ" equipped with a Bosspole. Mob Rule does all of jack crap for units that have max unit sizes around 10 to 12, because the unit size tends to be blown through pretty quickly, and they never maintain their Fearless. Even units with max 15 suffer from a particularly lackluster Mob Rule bonus that is pretty much null and void the minute the unit suffers 6 casualties (which pretty much means only Boys and Stormboys utilize Mob Rule for what it's worth). So rerolled Ld 7 at the cost of d3 gretchin is actually fairly decent.

In any case, Grots work because they're dirt cheap and never worth more than 107pts (and never should be fielded to full 30). Field at 29 and take the two mandatory grabber-stick slavers. Leave the Grotpods at home, anything they'll be remotely useful against is going to have the armor save to ignore it. Throw them out in front of your Shootas (you bet your sweet **** you're using Shootas), and bury a KFF in with the boyz, but close enough to catch the Grots and another unit or two (such as more Grots). People stop laughing at gretchin shields when the little bastards Go To Ground and claim a 4+ cover while in the open. And charging them, is exactly what they're there for. Gretchin shields exist to absorb charges, flee (and get ran down most likely) so that the boys get a free turn to unload a bucket or 4 of dice at the offending unit. The fact they are not an effective tarpit, is exactly what makes them useful in that regard. You want them cleared out as soon as your opponent's deathstar or combat beatstick contacts them, so that unit is left in the open on the following turn.


On a side note, a very interesting oddity with gretchin tends to occur with disturbing frequency. Grots aren't expected to be much more than a throw away, even amongst Ork players. However there is a disturbing trend amongst longtime Ork veterans that their Gretchin will regularly pull their weight and then some. Bizarre happenings exist in 40k, such as a lone scout who manages to inflict 1 wound on a Hive Tyrant and kill it... But Grots are seemingly a magnet for such events. It's happened to me an alarming number of times, and I've seen it happen just as often to other players. The Waaagh is full of members who have had bizarre reports as well. Instances where Gretchin shoot at a fresh terminator squad, and kill all but 1. Winning combat against a beatdown unit that flubbed it's attack rolls, then OVERRUNNING them despite all odds (with a 2 initiative). Or any number of such occurances. Sure it's nothing you can, nor should you, rely on (indeed not expecting anything seems to facilitate it). But it seems to happen often.

Theocracity
28-08-2012, 20:49
I think the problem with people's perception is that not all cheap, crappy units perform the same roles. The roles of Meat Shield, Tar Pit and Objective Holder are very different and not all fodder units can do all of them.

The Meat Shield is a unit that grants units cover saves and synergizes with other foot units around it. This second part is important, as the 5+ cover save they grant is often not good enough to spend points on or make up for maneuverability problems they cause. Good meat shield examples are Gargoyles shielding FMCs (as they can keep up and hold their own in assault), Termagants with Tervigon support (benefit from buffs), Storm Guardians with an Avatar (benefit from aura) or Guardsmen in front of tanks (as they block assaults).

A Tarpit is designed to be cheap, numerous, and able to stick around in an assault through morale buffs or combat ability. It's not worth giving up the latter features just to save points, or the tarpit won't do it's job. Examples are Ork Boyz (as opposed to Grots), Guard Blob Squads (as opposed to conscripts), or big squads of Gaunts.

Finally there's the Objective Holder. This unit doesn't need the same abilities as the meat shield or tarpit - it just needs to be cheap and small to free up space elsewhere in the list. This works best in lists where other units are designed to be aggressive. It can help if the unit has a few guns to take potshots with or a defensive ability to keep alive but it's not necessary - mostly it just needs to stay out of sight. Examples are min squads of Grots, scouts with sniper rifles, or guardians with a heavy weapon.

It remains to be seen which roles Cultists will be able to do, but their extreme points differential from CSM should give them the ability to do any role. From a guess, I'd say that they would perform as objective holders normally, meat shields when upgraded by a Dark Apostle, and Tarpits when upgraded to zombies.