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View Full Version : need help setteling a long standing argument. help please



sean_scanlon2000
28-08-2012, 05:40
okay so here is the gist of the argument. the codex astartes states 1k marines per company yadda yadda yadda. if a chapter breaks with that number and expands its ranks is that enough of a reason to have them declared tratoris? my buddy always tries to excommunicate my chapter because well their fists and despise the ultramarines and guillimen. they believe the code was a mistake and choose not to follow its structure but will follow is battle doctrine. Rogal Dorn did not agree with the Codex until he was given a choice to either have a 2nd civil war or to break apart his legion to placate his wayward brother....

Guess Who
28-08-2012, 05:56
No. No it wouldn't. Have you not heard of second founding chapters?
And if you mean if half the chapter became Chaos, then still no. Half of the Dark Angels turned to Chaos, but the Dark Angels are so far from Traitors its not funny

Ozendorph
28-08-2012, 06:37
First and second founding chapters are shown a lot of leniency with these sort of matters. Obviously the High Lords won't tolerate repeated or grievous infractions, but I believe most honorable chapters in good standing would get smacked with tithes, be required to forfeit wargear, ships, or even a planet under their control, or perhaps undertake a crusade. Excommunication is reserved for chaos-dabblers, those lending aid to alien scum, and the like. Heck, most of the secessionist forces in the Badab war were allowed to repent

Beppo1234
28-08-2012, 07:15
Space Wolves and Black Templars have numbers greater than 1000 per chapter limit... and they are still loyalists

Charistoph
28-08-2012, 07:19
Imperial and Crimson Fists follow the Codex Astartes pretty closely, actually, including size.

The only Loyalist chapters that are known by us to not follow the size restriction are the Black Templar (IF Successor) and the Space Wolves. Wolves get away with it because they really CAN'T be broken up, and their growth rate is stifled by being a one-world Legion, I mean, Chapter. Black Templar are already so broken up chasing everything in the galaxy, that they never get together, so their numbers are always in question and hard to nail down.

Edit: Another point, most Chapters have more than 1000 Astartes assigned to them. Yes, even the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels. How do they do it? Well, it's creative accounting. What defines an Astartes? Being qualified to be in Power Armor (aka no Scouts)? No Leadership like Chaplains, Librarians, Chapter Masters, Tech Marines? When you add all those who qualify to be in battle, they do number a bit more. Fortunately, casualty rates are high enough to provide some level of control.

chromedog
28-08-2012, 07:48
So who died and made your mate a high lord?
Another player can't just "excommunicate" a chapter just because he wants to.

1000 is just the number of "battle brothers" (full marines) - GW really didn't do their maths properly. There's no way 1 million marines (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) can defend an empire of a million worlds (that's 1 marine PER planet (plus countless craptons of bulletmagnets). Even Mat Ward couldn't write fluff that craptacular. Some chapters don't count aspirants (scouts) as full brothers until they get their final implants (black carapace) and become full marines - and they would still be "codex" chapters. Black Templars have more than 1000 marines, and they are loyalist.

Charistoph
28-08-2012, 08:13
So who died and made your mate a high lord?
Another player can't just "excommunicate" a chapter just because he wants to.

1000 is just the number of "battle brothers" (full marines) - GW really didn't do their maths properly. There's no way 1 million marines (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) can defend an empire of a million worlds (that's 1 marine PER planet (plus countless craptons of bulletmagnets). Even Mat Ward couldn't write fluff that craptacular. Some chapters don't count aspirants (scouts) as full brothers until they get their final implants (black carapace) and become full marines - and they would still be "codex" chapters. Black Templars have more than 1000 marines, and they are loyalist.

And of course, that doesn't include situations where Chapter Masters like Azrael, Dante, and Calgar can call on their successor chapters for assistance as easily as they can call on their own specific chapter (well, those that haven't turned traitor, of course).

sean_scanlon2000
28-08-2012, 08:24
i've just never bought the 1k marines and thinks its garbage so when i wrote their fluff they dont exactly follow the codex standard... and no dorn did not follow the codex astartes... an IF strike cruiser is fired upon by the navy and that makes dorn relent and finally accept the codex rather then see the imperium torn assunder by another civil war. then following the iron cage the IF's are broken apart and the core that remains call themselves fists and take dorns heraledry. but even they are not strict codex ie 4th ed codex had them still specializing in seige warefare and they were stubborn.
The root of the argument comes down to does the inquisition really go aroudn checking to see how many marines you actually have? and if you have more then 1k is that honestly enough of a reason to call you a traitor? me i see it as simply giving guillimen the bird and telling him where to stick his codex. my chapter fights with a legion mentality ie their serfs actually see combat like they would have during the great crusade representing the imperial army.

BigHammer
28-08-2012, 09:23
... Crimson Fists follow the Codex Astartes pretty closely, actually, including size.

Well, they try...

Inquisitor_Thorn
28-08-2012, 10:42
The one fact most people fail to realise is that the Codex Astartes is a Guideline/Set of Rules in place to follow. Now name howmany people dont bend/break rules for their own gain? With Marines Its no Different. Dorn would not risk loosing a large portion of his force without their been some back up plan even if this means having 200 scouts sitting awaiting the final implants. To be Excommunicated would mean some serious act against the Emperor not oh you have too many Marines.

Athlan na Dyr
28-08-2012, 11:02
i've just never bought the 1k marines and thinks its garbage so when i wrote their fluff they dont exactly follow the codex standard... and no dorn did not follow the codex astartes... an IF strike cruiser is fired upon by the navy and that makes dorn relent and finally accept the codex rather then see the imperium torn assunder by another civil war. then following the iron cage the IF's are broken apart and the core that remains call themselves fists and take dorns heraledry. but even they are not strict codex ie 4th ed codex had them still specializing in seige warefare and they were stubborn.
The root of the argument comes down to does the inquisition really go aroudn checking to see how many marines you actually have? and if you have more then 1k is that honestly enough of a reason to call you a traitor? me i see it as simply giving guillimen the bird and telling him where to stick his codex. my chapter fights with a legion mentality ie their serfs actually see combat like they would have during the great crusade representing the imperial army.

The problem is that going over the 1k marine size isn't giving the finger to Guilliman and Guilliman alone. Its giving it to the High Lords, the Emperor's authority and the Imperium as a whole, hence why deliberately flaunting the size limit is seen as a serious infringement with a few exceptions (Wolves and Templars), although these are due to the difficulties in bringing them to heel and counting them respectively.
Furthermore a plus sized Chapter is capable of flaunting the entire point and purpose of the Codex (an individual force being able to sustainably take and hold reasonably defended planets). This would make them a threat to the Imperium in the same way the Traitor Legions were during the Heresy.
By same token, a fleet commander wouldn't be able to take control of a couple of regiments of Guardsmen if their general died, nor would the general be allowed to control the fleet.

With counting the number of Astartes, I'm not entirely sure how it works. There likely would be some inquisitorial supervision, as there is with most things in the Imperium. Other than that, Gene-seed requests vs. casualty count would probably be monitored, meaning that only a slow increase would be possible rather than the Chapter doubling in size in a fortnight.

On what would happen should they be caught well over the limit, the Fists are a founding Legion. That carries a lot of weight, especially with their successors. To attack them, or to try and declare them traitors to the Imperium would likely be fought by said marines. To overwhelm multiple chapters of Space Marines would take sizeable Navy assets, plus a load of guardsmen or more marines (the last of which is unlikely to happen. The Inquisition cannot directly control Space Marines* and few would willingly attack a first founding). To requisition the force required would require the top brass of the Inquisition to get involved, and none are stupid enough to waste the resources on attacking a loyal military resource. Sure, the odd warning or threat might be issued but the likelihood of actual punishment is incredibly low.

*the exception (I think) is the Daemonhunter's Chamber Militant, the Grey Knights

Eldoriath
28-08-2012, 11:19
As I see it some lenient must be allowed in the matter. To allow a bit more then 1k is simply giving them a small buffert for un-calculated large casaulties and suchlike. And as other said: It's hardly a matter or "RAAARRGGHH! You have 1001 marines?!?! Not allowed! Now Die all of you! RAAAARRRGH!!!one!!!". Rather I could see "So, we have noticed that you have an unusual high amount of marines in your chapter, thus we want you to go on this high-risk but important mission since you have the manpower for it."

It's a nod in the direction of "We know you have broken the rules, but we can look between the fingers if you do this for us". Using the resources at hand so to speak.

Inquisitor_Thorn
28-08-2012, 11:27
As I see it some lenient must be allowed in the matter. To allow a bit more then 1k is simply giving them a small buffert for un-calculated large casaulties and suchlike. And as other said: It's hardly a matter or "RAAARRGGHH! You have 1001 marines?!?! Not allowed! Now Die all of you! RAAAARRRGH!!!one!!!". Rather I could see "So, we have noticed that you have an unusual high amount of marines in your chapter, thus we want you to go on this high-risk but important mission since you have the manpower for it."

It's a nod in the direction of "We know you have broken the rules, but we can look between the fingers if you do this for us". Using the resources at hand so to speak.

My point but better worded haha

IAMNOTHERE
28-08-2012, 11:32
I think that's the answer there:

High Lord: How dare you have 1300 marines in your chapter? Who do you think you are the Wolves?

Chapter Master: No problem I'll get rid of a few; now which of your pet projects would you like me to stop supporting?

Done deal realy I can't see it being a problem as long as they keep commiting their forces to operations the High Lords like.

Damien 1427
28-08-2012, 11:38
1000 is just the number of "battle brothers" (full marines) - GW really didn't do their maths properly. There's no way 1 million marines (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) can defend an empire of a million worlds (that's 1 marine PER planet (plus countless craptons of bulletmagnets).

Well, it's not just them. It's billions upon billions of Imperial Guardsmen, the Titan Legions, the Imperial Navy, the Adepta Sororitas, the Admech's own armies of combat servitors and skitarii... Or, as you called them, "bullet magnets". :p Marines are just the special forces, the very best, but they're not going to spend a lot of time doing garrison duty on some fuedal worled at the ****-end of a subsector.

TheDoctor
28-08-2012, 12:02
I think it's stated in the Deathwatch rulebook that chapters routinely go over the "approved" limit, if they are expecting a major alien incursion, about to go on a Crusade, or just because the Emporer's Tarot gave bad omens.

chromedog
28-08-2012, 12:12
^Hence my reference to the "countless craptons of bulletmagnets" - i.e. the guard, the navy, the nuns and every other meatbag marshalled to stop a bullet in the emperor's name.

You quoted that part but probably failed to read the entire thing. :D

Grimtuff
28-08-2012, 12:28
Thing is, even the Ultramarines go over 1000. It's right there in the SM codex, where they show the full battle company. The command staff, librarium, Chaplains, vehicle pilots etc. don't count towards the total, only the 10 man squads in the companies do. :)

MajorWesJanson
28-08-2012, 12:32
The only Loyalist chapters that are known by us to not follow the size restriction are the Black Templar (IF Successor) and the Space Wolves. Wolves get away with it because they really CAN'T be broken up, and their growth rate is stifled by being a one-world Legion, I mean, Chapter. Black Templar are already so broken up chasing everything in the galaxy, that they never get together, so their numbers are always in question and hard to nail down.

There are some other potential chapters that are greater than 1000. Night Watch have 11 companies as per Codex Eye of Terror, and Exorcists have 12 companies per Codex Armageddon.

Beppo1234
28-08-2012, 12:51
Thing is, even the Ultramarines go over 1000. It's right there in the SM codex, where they show the full battle company. The command staff, librarium, Chaplains, vehicle pilots etc. don't count towards the total, only the 10 man squads in the companies do. :)

that's only if you count scouts. If you don't count scouts, the Chapter does indeed number around 1000. 900 marines, 10 captains, 10 chaplains, 10 apothecaries, 10 standard bearers and 10 techmarines assigned to companies. That leaves 50 to fill out Chapter Master, senior chaplains, the Librarium and other techmarines.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
28-08-2012, 12:52
The Codex isn't so much a set of rules as guidelines. It's acceptable to have more than ten companies. Reaching twenty would probably be stretching it a bit too far. However with some chapters dangerously under strength I'd overlook it. Also if a chapter is able to replicate their geneseed so successfully they're probably ripe for creating further foundings.

At worst I could see a repeat offender maybe getting sent on a century long penitent crusade for their transgressions. Extremis Tratoris is reserved for the real bad boys. Namely the ones that turn to Chaos. For example Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws.

Jim
28-08-2012, 14:14
On a slightly related point, The Emperor's Gift by ADB, shows what happens when the Inquisition falls out with a First Founding Chapter - specifically the Space Wolves.

Jim

Damien 1427
28-08-2012, 15:17
You quoted that part but probably failed to read the entire thing. :D

Ah, but I did, as I did refer to that in the text of my post. Which you probably failed to read. :p And so on, and so forth. In any case, my point is that a billion Marines may seem like a very small number, they're the elite. Unlike games of 40k where it may as well be reenactments of the Horus Heresy and the Badab War for the number of Marine vs. Marine games we see, the overwhelming majority of fighting and defence of the realm is by "mundane" forces. Whilst there's only one per world (If that), it's not so much a concern when you have tens of billions (Perhaps hundreds of billions) of "normal" soldiers ready to throw at whatever the galaxy throws up.

Charistoph
28-08-2012, 15:19
i've just never bought the 1k marines and thinks its garbage so when i wrote their fluff they dont exactly follow the codex standard... and no dorn did not follow the codex astartes... an IF strike cruiser is fired upon by the navy and that makes dorn relent and finally accept the codex rather then see the imperium torn assunder by another civil war. then following the iron cage the IF's are broken apart and the core that remains call themselves fists and take dorns heraledry. but even they are not strict codex ie 4th ed codex had them still specializing in seige warefare and they were stubborn.
The root of the argument comes down to does the inquisition really go aroudn checking to see how many marines you actually have? and if you have more then 1k is that honestly enough of a reason to call you a traitor? me i see it as simply giving guillimen the bird and telling him where to stick his codex. my chapter fights with a legion mentality ie their serfs actually see combat like they would have during the great crusade representing the imperial army.

Remember that while they are still siege specialists and Stubborn, doesn't detract from their adherence to the Codex Astartes. Reread the fluff in the latest Codex: Space Marines, and it tells you that they follow it very closely.


There are some other potential chapters that are greater than 1000. Night Watch have 11 companies as per Codex Eye of Terror, and Exorcists have 12 companies per Codex Armageddon.

Not all Astartes Companies are 100 Battle Brothers. There are a few that have alternate sizes (Salamanders 7), and some that have a 12th Company, but still only have 10 operating companies (the other 2 lost to Traitors or the Warp). And as some have mentioned, recruitment may go up in preparation of some great task or warning.

SquigBoy Extraordinaire
28-08-2012, 15:40
More likely the

"We know you have broken the rules, but we can look between the fingers if you do this for us".
Would be met with a choir of crickets from the Capter Master's part. After all, a Space Marine Chapter Master would be able to decide whether or not to invest his man Power only if he found the mission to be double important, not for the others, but for his chapter first and foremost. He has the obligation to weigh the importancy of commiting his men to the fray, and if the mission doesn't call for their intervention, then they would not follow any requests.
A Space Marine Chapter master is a Warlord bound by oaths of Duty, Blood and Honour, but also independant enough to be able to cast his vote as the final word.

Nezalhualixtlan
28-08-2012, 16:09
Given that the Space Wolves and Black Templar flaunt the size limit without reprecussions, there is clearly some room for compromise without being declared traitoris. Space Marines are routinely granted special exemptions no one else in the Imperium receive. They are allowed to follow their own warrior lodge traditions rather than being forced into the submission by the Ecclesiarchy. They are merely mind wiped rather than executed at the end of a joint mission with the Grey Knights against Chaos. They can flaunt the new technology restrictions of the Ad Mech without problem within reason...

And that's all because of who and what they are.

They are a surgical strike team, too few to be everywhere, but called in for the most dire circumstances humanity faces. Each Chapter is granted a certain level of autonomy so long as they meet basic guidelines, like furnishing their geneseed tithes and remaining close enough to the proscribed size limits. And even the size limits can be circumvented so long as the Chapter remains true to the Imperium and stands against the enemies of humanity and the HighLords...as long as they don't flaunt those guidelines too egregiously. And i d be willing to bet that even some of the High Lords would take a pragmatic view of not creating more enemies from what should be allies, even if some of the more zealous take offense at a Chapter bending the rules somewhat. There is a difference between failing to follow some guidelines and open rebellion.

But beyond that no opponent can write your armies fluff without your consent as its your army. They can call you traitoris in their armies fluff, and write stories for their own army treating yours as a generic enemy they deem traitoris, but you don't need to accept that as defining your own armies story. You could as easily call theirs traitoris for attacking an agent of the Imperium. And neither of you need to agree on that unlessd you both want to.

Poncho160
28-08-2012, 16:32
As The Emperors Gift showed even if a loyal Chapter does come to the attention and is attacked by the Inquisition, if the Space Marine Chapter dosent comply there isnt actually a lot the Inquisition can do. After all they are fighting against some of the most elite warriors ever, versed in every type of warfare who have numerous ties to a lot of different organisations that would be willing to help them.

You cant become saviours of Mankind with out being able to defend yourself and being able to call in a few favours....

Vaktathi
28-08-2012, 16:33
So who died and made your mate a high lord?
Another player can't just "excommunicate" a chapter just because he wants to.

1000 is just the number of "battle brothers" (full marines) - GW really didn't do their maths properly. There's no way 1 million marines (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) can defend an empire of a million worlds (that's 1 marine PER planet (plus countless craptons of bulletmagnets). Even Mat Ward couldn't write fluff that craptacular. Some chapters don't count aspirants (scouts) as full brothers until they get their final implants (black carapace) and become full marines - and they would still be "codex" chapters. Black Templars have more than 1000 marines, and they are loyalist.This, a million times this. The numbers for marines are ludicrously low on a galaxy-wide scale, even combined they wouldn't measure as more than a statistical blip in military might in many of the Imperium's wars when the IG's daily recruitment rate is in the billions while SM chapters recruit a few dozen individuals every decade. It's an instance of nobody taking the half-second to actually comprehend the numbers they're writing about. :p

It also doesn't then help that when creating SM fluff they accounted for the full 1000 marines as battle company brothers, not thinking about vehicle crews, command staff, ship officers, etc.


Very little about SM's makes much sense or really works when you start to actually look at them, hence why it's best not to take them too seriously and worry about idiots "excommunicating" one's chapter or some ridiculous ******y.

Charistoph
28-08-2012, 17:24
Given that the Space Wolves and Black Templar flaunt the size limit without reprecussions...

The Black Templar don't flaunt it at all. About as close as they come to "flaunting" it is being available for most of the major actions across the galaxy in respectable numbers. It's not like the Marshall is flipping the Inquisition and sticking his tongue at them as their Cruiser flies by the Inquisitor's.

jimmyzimms
28-08-2012, 17:33
It's not like the Marshall is flipping the Inquisition and sticking his tongue at them as their Cruiser flies by the Inquisitor's.
I don't know. If they did do this it would sure as hell make me like them even more :D

unknown_lifeform
28-08-2012, 17:39
It's an instance of nobody taking the half-second to actually comprehend the numbers they're writing about. :p


In other news I'm afraid no-one is allowed to use grey knight purifiers. We've been keeping a careful count and my mates lost them all. Sorry.

Vaktathi
28-08-2012, 18:45
I'm pretty sure I've had at lest 3 or 4 games where I slew all the purifiers in existence when pitted against a mere company of Imperial Guardsmen :p


When they make fluff that specific and minute, it breaks the suspension of disbelief when you're able to field all that there would be and they get mauled or destroyed. :p

strongbow
28-08-2012, 19:44
Well worth a read on this:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Lothlanathorian
28-08-2012, 20:52
Other than that, Gene-seed requests vs. casualty count would probably be monitored, meaning that only a slow increase would be possible rather than the Chapter doubling in size in a fortnight.

I think you misunderstand how Space Marines make new Space Marines. There is no 'Gene-seed requests'. Space Marines tend to have their own gene-seed on hand to make more Space Marines, they don't have to request it from anyone. The tithes of gene-seed they give out to the Ministorum/Mechanicus are for inspection purposes so that they can make sure there isn't any mutation in the gene-seed. This is how Space Wolves still have the Canis Helix and the Blood Angels gene-seed, despite player-knowledge, is still exceptionally pure. They keep their own stocks and send off tiny amounts to be inspected or used in the founding of new Chapters.

So, there is no way for the High Lords/Ministorum/=][= to keep count of how many Marines are being brought up vs casualties. Also, because this is the Imperium, even if someone were to look at the numbers and see that a Chapter had deployed across various warzones and the numbers of Marines they sent out added up to over a thousand, it would take a century or two before it was noticed/anything was said about it.