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Unforgiven
07-06-2005, 20:32
Someone once told me that great cannons were much better than dwarf cannons just before we played. We set up our cannons (I play Dwarfs) on opposite sides of the board. He got the first turn and totally missed my cannon with his. on my turn i reduced his to a heap of crap- he shut up about cannons for the duration of the game. Yes, it was lucky rolling that won me the 'cannon contest' but I think it's a funny story. (he won in the end, so don't get touchy empire players)

I want youre opinions, which cannon do you think is better? the dwarf or the empire? Now with this question, most people will right away just say "great cannon is better." Longer range and D6 wounds looks much better I will gladly admit that. but the crew are only toughness 3, a good cannon is no use with a dead crew. Dwarf crew are toughness 4 and with a dwarf cannon, you can buy runes to ensure that the cannon does not blow up (missfire)! a smoltering pile of worthless metal is not going to kill many orks.

so what do you think?

Sgt John Keel
07-06-2005, 21:40
I put my money on the Dwarf Cannon. As long as you aren't shooting Dragons or other monsters with it, it's superior. Although as a whole, the Empire Cannon does more for it's army than the Dwarf one does. Probably 'cause the Dwarfs can have S9 Bolt Throwers, which are, IMO more reliable.

/Adrian

skavenguy13
07-06-2005, 21:46
empire artillery is better than runeless dwarf artillery.
With runes, it often gets better than empire though.

RandomZombie
07-06-2005, 22:21
Queen Bess of The zombiew pirates is strength ten and has a range of 72 inches AND it doesnt allow armor saves. Sure it can explode into a giant fireball really easily, but its still really awesome!

But out of the dwarf and empire, dwarf alll the way man!

gukal
07-06-2005, 22:36
Queen Bess of The zombiew pirates is strength ten and has a range of 72 inches AND it doesnt allow armor saves. Sure it can explode into a giant fireball really easily, but its still really awesome!

But out of the dwarf and empire, dwarf alll the way man!


I vote with the Dwarves. Rune of Forging is pretty handy.

With respect to the Queen Bess ... I'm a little concerned about adding the combined total of TWO artillery dice to my guess. How erratic is this gun going to be? I guess 35" and to that I add 4" - 20" (assuming I don't blow up on one of the dice)? That is a pretty crazy weapon for 250pts. Fortunately, when it works, it would hit massed infantry like a ton of bricks.

skavenguy13
07-06-2005, 23:36
Where can we find the stats for those zombie pirates?

taer
08-06-2005, 03:17
I vote with the Dwarves. Rune of Forging is pretty handy.

With respect to the Queen Bess ... I'm a little concerned about adding the combined total of TWO artillery dice to my guess. How erratic is this gun going to be? I guess 35" and to that I add 4" - 20" (assuming I don't blow up on one of the dice)? That is a pretty crazy weapon for 250pts. Fortunately, when it works, it would hit massed infantry like a ton of bricks.

Not as innacurate as you may think. With throwing two dice, the odds are more in your favor for the mid-range deviations, versus one dice. The mid range is a 12 for the Zombie cannon, and since you want to guess a little short as is, 12-14" low of target will likely get the target you want, minding the fact you are more likely to misfire, but less likely than a hellblaster mind you. Of course, when a fluke roll comes up, it can get really wonky, but on the whole the range estimation is more reliable than that of a normal cannon.

Gotrek
08-06-2005, 04:37
the issue with dwarven cannons is the fact that they are exceedingly expensive and for the same cost (whether in pts or in special slots) you can get a VERY accurate and VERY dangerous stonethrower. there's no point in taking a dwarven cannon at this point unless you face an army of chariots.

m1s1n
08-06-2005, 05:24
Where can we find the stats for those zombie pirates?

White Dwarf 305.

Honestly, Queen Bess is really bad for the points. It's totally inaccurate, super expensive--and highly unreliable. Yes, it makes a template sized cannon bounce, but it would be so easy to over shoot--or simply explode. However, I guess Bess just fits that army really well--afterall, everything else in it is a one-trick pony, why not the super-cannon?

Tiberius Frost
08-06-2005, 05:57
I'm disappointed that GW is putting out yet _another_ weapon that's totally devastating but works half the time. I'm getting sick of these...

Eldacar
08-06-2005, 06:32
I'd put my money on the Dwarf cannon, for the simple reason that it can get runes that mostly fix the problems that cannons have.

Mordhorst
08-06-2005, 08:50
I'm disappointed that GW is putting out yet _another_ weapon that's totally devastating but works half the time. I'm getting sick of these...

Hehe, me too, but its still better than the weapons they released before: Quite devastating and really reliable. Can you say ratling :p

On topic, I'd say I prefer the Empire Cannon every day of the week. It isn't that much better than the dwarven one, but the potential alone to kill a dragon with a single shot is enough to make some players nervous. Sometimes, thats worth more than actually dealing any damage.
As someone said before, the dwarven Stone thrower, runed up to re-roll scatter and maybe to S5 (not really necessary) also beats the dwarven cannon hands down.

Griefbringer
08-06-2005, 12:18
There are no problems that cannot be solved by cannon - and I think that both Empire and Dwarf cannons are good enough for that (as well as DoW cannons).

Scythe
08-06-2005, 12:33
White Dwarf 305.

Honestly, Queen Bess is really bad for the points. It's totally inaccurate, super expensive--and highly unreliable. Yes, it makes a template sized cannon bounce, but it would be so easy to over shoot--or simply explode. However, I guess Bess just fits that army really well--afterall, everything else in it is a one-trick pony, why not the super-cannon?

Not entirly true. For reasons pointed out by taer, Queen Bess is acctually more accurate than normal cannons. It's unreliable, yes (altough again, a hellblaster is more unreliable) and expensive, but that thing hits with such a damn power that it's totally worth it.

On the empire/dwarf cannons, I think the empire one is slightly better. Cannons main use is to nail expensive monsters etc anyway, and to snipe the occasional character which fails its look out sir roll. D6 wounds is better as D3 in such case. That, and dwarfs can get a tooled stone thrower, which is imho better as the cannon. Runes are nice, but quite expensive for a cannon.

Overall, cannon wise, I think I prefer the small cannons of the undead pirate list (forgot their name). Move and shoot, S7 (enough 95% of the time) for a mere 70 pts. A real bargain pts wise.

Unforgiven
08-06-2005, 17:44
Thanks for all the input guys! Although some of you went off topic a bit (I don't really care), and I thank all the wise ones who sided with the dwarf cannon.

irundaia
08-06-2005, 17:50
I still think there shouldn't be any cannons at all because there isn't one thing anyone can do to it unless ofcourse you have cannons yourself which most of the races don't have. I can agree with mortars cause they are far less reliable because of the winds that change the direction the shell moves in. And I actually think there shouldn't be any siege machines because there are races like the Wood Elves that really have none and it makes it near to impossible for them to beat an army with any kind of siege machines.

And by the way isn't this warhammer FANTASY!!!!!!

Unforgiven
08-06-2005, 18:05
How can you have wars of the old times without old school firepower? besides, the dwarfs and perhaps the empire would be pretty screwed without cannons.

Kelroth
08-06-2005, 19:36
Oh yes, because Wood Elves can't just fly a Great Eagle behind then charge the crew down, can they :rolleyes:

Scythe
08-06-2005, 19:38
I still think there shouldn't be any cannons at all because there isn't one thing anyone can do to it unless ofcourse you have cannons yourself which most of the races don't have. I can agree with mortars cause they are far less reliable because of the winds that change the direction the shell moves in. And I actually think there shouldn't be any siege machines because there are races like the Wood Elves that really have none and it makes it near to impossible for them to beat an army with any kind of siege machines.

And by the way isn't this warhammer FANTASY!!!!!!

Don't agree here. So you also want to scrap bows and crossbows because Chaos can't have them? Or scrap cavalry and magic because Dwarfs don't have them? Also, not all armies have access to heavy and plate armour, so scrap that as well. It would be an extremely dull game I guess...

However, your argument is not even entirly true. Every army has access to war machines. Just buy some DoW cannons.

cubbster
08-06-2005, 21:23
I would say that the dwarf cannon is better, becasue on average it is more accurate and less likely to randomnly explode (nice runes), but the empire great cannon with its strength and damage capability has a certain extra nastiness about it! Anyway overall I would go with the dwarf cannon.

With regards to the comment about there being no cannons, I think this would detract from the game hugely as it is in character for many races to use them (dwarves and empire spring to mind). Each race has its specialities, it is just a case of maximising their potential.

T10
08-06-2005, 23:31
I'm disappointed that GW is putting out yet _another_ weapon that's totally devastating but works half the time. I'm getting sick of these...
Better with a half-way devastating weapon that works all the time?

-T10

Gotrek
09-06-2005, 01:00
i say ban light cavalary and magic :D

Unforgiven
09-06-2005, 18:20
Each race has its specialities, it is just a case of maximising their potential.

I totally agree

gukal
09-06-2005, 18:53
Not as innacurate as you may think. With throwing two dice, the odds are more in your favor for the mid-range deviations, versus one dice. The mid range is a 12 for the Zombie cannon, and since you want to guess a little short as is, 12-14" low of target will likely get the target you want, minding the fact you are more likely to misfire, but less likely than a hellblaster mind you. Of course, when a fluke roll comes up, it can get really wonky, but on the whole the range estimation is more reliable than that of a normal cannon.

I think this is a misconception. I understand that the math works out and that rolling two dice delivers a more consistent result. BUT.

With a regular cannon, I'm shooting at a 5-6" target (block of infantry, flank of a cavalry unit) and I have a potential variance of 2-10". Its a smaller range with equal probability at each point. If I guess well and conservatively, no matter what I roll (barring misfires), I'll either hit the target or at least be within a few inches of the target (counting on a good bounce).

With a Queen Bess, I'm still shooting at a 5-6" target but I now have a variance of 4-20." A wider range with more consistency toward the center.

I would propose that even with more consistent results on the dice, it is now harder to hit that same sized target. The Queen Bess opens up the chance of being further away from the target than any bounce could redeem.

Kelroth
09-06-2005, 20:18
It may amaze you to discover this, but an army comprised of zombie pirates with guns they can only hit on 6s with and which have the capacity to misfire is not one of great reliability and efficiency. They're bloody zombies. The Queen Bess is a bit of fun and should be treated as such.

gukal
09-06-2005, 20:38
It may amaze you to discover this, but an army comprised of zombie pirates with guns they can only hit on 6s with and which have the capacity to misfire is not one of great reliability and efficiency. They're bloody zombies. The Queen Bess is a bit of fun and should be treated as such.

I am not amazed. I think it'll be a hoot. :D Regretfully, since our current Lustrian campaign is at 1000pts, there is no version of this army I can presently field. So its regular VC for me in Lustria.

The point of my post, however, is merely to explain why I think it is less accurate not more accurate than a standard cannon. Hopefully, this explanation of my previous explanation will not further inflame you. :)

- Gukal

Griefbringer
09-06-2005, 20:50
As for Queen Bess, that 11/36 chance of misfire might mean that unlucky players might have hard time managing it to fire more than a coupld of times per game.

Warlord Queek
10-06-2005, 01:21
Back to the main question..
I think they're about equally strong. The great cannon dealing more damage to though-armed unirs than the dwarven, but with a greater chance of exploding and the dwarven cannon shooting every turn with less wounds...

I really can't make up my mind which of the two would be a better cannon. I used to play Empire, but now I hate Empire (actually I now hate all humies) and like dwarfs better, so I say: the Dwarven cannons are better!

Gotrek
10-06-2005, 03:14
they are better but hightly costfull... that's their problem. 135 pts for a rune of forging cannon is quite a lot and hard to cause eneugh mayhem as to pay it's cost

Unforgiven
10-06-2005, 22:03
I say if it kills a chariot or two, what the hell!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
05-07-2005, 13:06
i say ban light cavalary and magic :D
Why? where's the fun in that? it means you have something to cream in combat and if you are dwarfs, who have better cannons, something to block with huge volumes of dice

Warlord Queek
07-07-2005, 17:05
About ur quote, Tormentor, Why not 4000 points of SKaven!