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synapse
28-08-2012, 13:07
title is pretty self-explanatory really. what are your thoughts on using allies as 'counts-as' models for the main list. so, for instance, using IG as the main army and then taking sisters of battle allies, though modelling them as IG in power armour, rather than sisters. or maybe IG with terminator allies, though modelled as 'true scale' marines, using the terminator rules to better portray the marines' supposed toughness and size? or necrons in a chaos army counting as cyborgs (old timers might get the reference) or, more extreme, using converted csm models to represent allied necrons, with whatever fluff explanation you can come up with. im not saying just using unaltered models, i mean well-thought-out and exectuted conversions if not outright scratchbuilds.

any thoughts? if this isnt frowned upon i image it can open up a lot of new ideas for converters/modellers, though i'm not sure how accepted this practice would be.

Radium
28-08-2012, 13:09
I don't see how this is any different from converting a stand-alone army (Adeptus Mechanicus, Harlequins, Squats, Kroot etc). You just get more options this way. I think it's a great way to create some awesome armies!

koran
28-08-2012, 13:17
As long as you are clear before the game begins and nothing is too far fetched I dont think anyone would have an issue with this.

Pentregarth
28-08-2012, 13:18
I completely agree with that. If there are no rules for what you want to play, simply pick the most appropriate compromise. For example, I plan to use IG allies (specifically penal legionnaires) as cultists until the new csm codex hits shelves

Edit: Basically, using allies for fluff is awesome. Using allies to create uber powerful combos like the archon/fateseer-deathstar is fine for competetive gaming, but that's it.

Axel
28-08-2012, 13:23
This would be absolutely fine with me. Actually I think I prefer this to many of the mismatched "allies" that the table creates.

Poncho160
28-08-2012, 13:31
This was actually my first thought when I heard about allies. I just had images of big ramshackle robots with jump packs piloted by Orcs firing off plasma everywhere, ie allied Tau Crisis suits.

Whilst anything is quite easy to convert to make Orcy with a little bit of imagination pretty all allied units can be scratch built / converted to fit the look of your army.

Black_Cat
28-08-2012, 13:36
I'm an Ork player, and 'count as' allies is something I've been considering since the new ruleset came out, so I'm interested to hear what other people thing too.

To me, having an allied detachment of Orks that have looted some Necron worlds and have loads of new toys but are still ORKS would be way more aesthetically pleasing than some Necrons tacked onto the side of my army...

synapse
28-08-2012, 13:43
This was actually my first thought when I heard about allies. I just had images of big ramshackle robots with jump packs piloted by Orcs firing off plasma everywhere, ie allied Tau Crisis suits.


To me, having an allied detachment of Orks that have looted some Necron worlds and have loads of new toys but are still ORKS would be way more aesthetically pleasing than some Necrons tacked onto the side of my army...

great ideas; particularly the ork jump-kans :)

Charax
28-08-2012, 13:44
Well, my Chaos force is getting a bunch of Necron allies, paying homage to their predecessors: Chaos Androids!

And who created the Chaos Androids? Chaos Squats! So my Destroyer Lord with ressurection orb becomes a Chaos Squat engineer with Jump Pack, repairing his creations.

Poncho160
28-08-2012, 13:49
great ideas; particularly the ork jump-kans :)

Haha, or Ork Rokkit Kans!

OgreBattle
28-08-2012, 15:06
I've thought about this before, anything that adds versatility is good.
The most obvious is Chaos+IG for cultists with demons or marines

There's also the possibility of creating new styls of armies. Look at IG+Tau, you've added robots to your army of skimmers, you can do any sci fi military force with that.
Gitz.

But the Orky stuff is probably going to be the most fun

Orks+Necrons= Rogue Trader Orks
power armor, wacky weapons, cybork bodies, competent shooting, snazzy guns, everything.
That t4 i2 really synergizes to deliver the feeling.


Orks+IG= Looted stuff, or Grot Army

IG+Tau adds mecha to your chimeravet skimmer army, creates a very elite sci fi force that can represent lots of futuristic armies.



CWE+DE= Harlequin Troupe

HQ
Succubus= Troupe Master
Farseer= Shadowseer

Elite
Harlequins= with Allies, you can take FOUR squads!
Hekatrix= another kind of Harlequin squad

Troop
Wych= Troupe

Fast Att
Reaver= Harlequin Jetbikes

synapse
29-08-2012, 14:28
i like the harlequin list, reminds me of those horrible harlie lists from 2nd edition with a handful of models on jetbikes with vortex grenades and god knows what other madness... actually, no i dont like it, too many bad memories! :p

OgreBattle
29-08-2012, 15:16
i like the harlequin list, reminds me of those horrible harlie lists from 2nd edition with a handful of models on jetbikes with vortex grenades

SHATTERSHARD!
... can Haemonculi take Clone Fields or is that just Archons

Pentregarth
29-08-2012, 15:24
Just Archons, only Urien Rakarth has a clone field.

I had a game some time ago where my opponent used an inofficial harlequin list (something from in nomine imperatoris, not sure what edition that was originally written, 3d or 4th I think), where they could combine a harlequins kiss (wound on 2+ in that 'codex') with powerblades (ignores armour). That was still 5th edition, so these guys literally cut through anything like heated butter. Thankfully only his grand harlequin and one other guy had access to that combo, but oh lord...those harlequins also had a special rule that halves the ws of everyone in an assault against them, it was brutal ^^

Aluinn
29-08-2012, 16:18
Not a problem at all, and most certainly not if you go to the trouble of doing conversions e.g. IG in power armor for Sisters. Using SM to represent Sisters (or Terminators) I would say is iffy, since you could have also taken SM allies/a SM squad and it's kinda confusing, but as long as your counts-as model isn't something that already exists and is available to you, it tends to be clear as long as you mention it at the start of the game.

(Not that I want to discourage anyone from modeling, mind, but if you want to model up "true scale" Marines, I'd recommend just using them as Marines, because Marines are what they are in the rules and counting them as something else in a game that quite likely may feature other Marines may cause confusion and seems unnecessary. If you want them to be more elite than normal Marines, there are the Veteran units and various HQ units, especially the Chapter Master's Honor Guard; you could take Scouts as the mandatory allied Troops so as not to have clashing, smaller Marines in the army.)

synapse
29-08-2012, 19:46
(Not that I want to discourage anyone from modeling, mind, but if you want to model up "true scale" Marines, I'd recommend just using them as Marines, because Marines are what they are in the rules and counting them as something else in a game that quite likely may feature other Marines may cause confusion and seems unnecessary. If you want them to be more elite than normal Marines, there are the Veteran units and various HQ units, especially the Chapter Master's Honor Guard; you could take Scouts as the mandatory allied Troops so as not to have clashing, smaller Marines in the army.)

QFT. i remember playing in a tournament some years ago with my truescale world eaters and coming against marines a few times. i was using the old daemon hunter list, using GK termie rules for my giant power armoured models. confusing to say the elast. probably better explanation would be 'movie marines' rather than truescale marines.

though the power-armoured IG is very intriguing ~(sisters counts as). i can imagine lots of engine seers, sisters (PA veterean guardsmen) for an elite army

Aryllon
29-08-2012, 20:10
You can do Harlies from CWE alone, no need for allies. Jetbikes, storm guardians, serpents, seer council are all viable (modelled appropriately) & you can use Jain Zar or Autarch rules to create a Solitaire. Even bung in a vyper (harlies already have venom transports, so no reason why you can't use a venom model as a CWE vyper & just state that in this battle they are 'not using the transport capacity') :)

I'm kitbashing primarily human & Tau (plus a couple of orks) as mercs allies for my CWE. Rules per Codex Orks (suitably ragtag!), using for example a Tauros as a warbuggy, Harkar as ork boy with big shoota, FW terminators (Catachan headswaps) as meganobz, SM scout bikers as biker boys, anything I want as a looted wagon... might even be a right heretic and use Yarrick as 'counts as Ork Warboss'...!!

Lord Damocles
29-08-2012, 20:33
My Harlequins (Dark Eldar) might possibly get used with Craftworlder allies to get access to a Wraithlord (I already have the model(s)).

My Skitarii (Imperial Guard) will be teaming up with Grey Knights to get access to Magi, Electropriests, Knights etc. in the same army.

I've been considering Grey Knight allies for my Necrons to give an excuse for converting my own 'The First Pariah' model as a Culexus.

Max_Killfactor
29-08-2012, 21:42
As long as you are clear before the game begins and nothing is too far fetched I dont think anyone would have an issue with this.

Yeah, what he said.

My old Archon with a spear (used it as a punisher) on a jetbike is reborn as a farseer with a singing spear on a jetbike. No one seems to mind, there's nothing else it could be.

synapse
29-08-2012, 21:49
My Skitarii (Imperial Guard) will be teaming up with Grey Knights to get access to Magi, Electropriests, Knights etc. in the same army.

I've been considering Grey Knight allies for my Necrons to give an excuse for converting my own 'The First Pariah' model as a Culexus.

2 great ideas; i particularly like the knight/skitarii as thats what i first thought when the dreadknight came out.

Brother Vogt
29-08-2012, 22:13
Like has been already said, as long as it was completely clear what was what at the start of the game it should work well and gives so many more interesting possibilities for conversions or alternative model inclusions.

IncrediSteve
30-08-2012, 01:15
A year or two ago this sort of thread would be sprinkled with naysayers who wouldn't tolerate this sort of thing. But allies are part of the basic rules, no approval necessary. We've even got free reign on page 3 to use whatever base size works best. Previously it was always "To do things out of the norm, seek your opponents approval", but in 6th edition it's "go ahead and do sweet stuff, just be reasonable". Allies lets you mix armies RAW; having them all look like whatever you want, so long as you explain confusable units to your opponent, is covered by counts-as.

I'd say this type of army is soundly backed by the rules! :D

That alone makes 6th edition my favorite to date. My Dark Mechanicus use base Grey Knights with allied Imperial Guard. Using GK henchmen assassins as Cyber-Bloodletters [profiles are extremely similar], I could hardly ask for a more fitting set of rules with which to render the forces of the True Omnissiah :chrome:

At least until the new Chaos codex comes out. Depending on how well cultists are supported, I might not even need a second codex... :eek:

Nostro
30-08-2012, 08:27
As everyone said. Unless you like the feel of "crusade armies" or have sweet fluff to explain your allies, II think it's even better than to just throw random mismatched squads together in your army.

Just make it clear to your opponent before going. But this was anyway the same thing with full count-as armies before Allies days.

Go visit the Project Logs section for inspiration. It's filled with imagination and exceptional painters/converters. Best part of Warseer.

Wishing
30-08-2012, 19:03
Well, my Chaos force is getting a bunch of Necron allies, paying homage to their predecessors: Chaos Androids!

And who created the Chaos Androids? Chaos Squats! So my Destroyer Lord with ressurection orb becomes a Chaos Squat engineer with Jump Pack, repairing his creations.

I love that, I really do. I think I have a single solitary Chaos Android model sitting around somewhere... if someone had a whole bunch of them, that would be epic.

The_Klobb_Maniac
30-08-2012, 21:25
Indeed; I have a total conversion army of IG that may well end up using "War Walkers" but indeed, those would look like double-missile Scout Sentinels; very convenient with the lack of the SS option but the same armor, movement, and outflanking/infil rules. Quite believable IMO.

Nostro++

NotMyIfurita
30-08-2012, 21:36
My first thought about allies as an Ork player was the return of truly looted vehicles! No more looted AV 11 Leman Russ :)

Cap'n Facebeard
31-08-2012, 00:09
For those interested in Chaos Androids, the monopose Space Crusade models appear on Ebay quitre regularly.

zawyvern
01-09-2012, 00:51
Totally agree with everyone. I've had tons of conversion ideas for Tau. One would be a Gue'vessa (Human Auxiliaries) force. The troopers are any easy enough swap out. Carapace armored humans converted with pulse rifles for firewarrior stand ins. Regular IG would be secondary troops. Converted to be a little more "Tau-esque".Any IG vehicles would be a cool conversion project. Make them more sci-fi as stated earlier. Work up wheeled versions, or even ball wheels... like the cars in "I robot". And with fliers you could really go to town.