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View Full Version : Would you want the return of cheap w1, 2 HQ's? For small games and allies



OgreBattle
29-08-2012, 07:57
A few editions back you had tiers of HQ choices, generally from w1 to w3, cheap choices for small games mainly. They've been phased out of 4e and 5e.

It feels kind of odd that a small 500pt "patrol" must always include the head honcho of your chapter, the grand commander of your regiment, because there is no option for lieutenants to command on their own.

6e also brings allies with a mandatory HQ. Must every space marines fighting alongside IG include their Force Commander or Librarian? Wouldn't a heroic sergeant be enough?

Hendarion
29-08-2012, 08:20
A patrol would be led by something like a Sergeant. There you go.

still-young
29-08-2012, 08:41
Yeah, but sergent isnt a hq choice, so games wise you cant do that, which i believe is op's point...

Damien 1427
29-08-2012, 08:42
Yes, yes I would like the return of the likes of Chaos Lieutenants or what would probably be now Vanguard/Sternguard Sergeants as the entry-level HQ choice. Given that a HQ choice is mandatory for most missions, I agree that it's odd that for Space Marines, that battle will be led by either a Company Captain, or one of the handful of Chaplains or Librarians a Chapter has. Also, kind of annoying, as you're sinking at least of a fifth of your points in a small-scale game into a single model, before you even consider upgrades or equipment.

I suppose the drive for "cinematic" games does mean that small-scale actions get left behind, somewhat. It wouldn't be too hard to price up an equivalent for friendly games, though.

Shamana
29-08-2012, 08:49
Yes, yes I would like the return of the likes of Chaos Lieutenants or what would probably be now Vanguard/Sternguard Sergeants as the entry-level HQ choice. Given that a HQ choice is mandatory for most missions, I agree that it's odd that for Space Marines, that battle will be led by either a Company Captain, or one of the handful of Chaplains or Librarians a Chapter has.

Well, considering a SM company has, what, 100 marines on active duty and your average game force has, say, 40-50 of those this is a pretty big commitment. I can definitely imagine that such a large part of the company would be led by one of the company's senior personnel - captain or chaplain, maybe a librarian depending on how the chapter views them and the mission - except if one was unavailable due to an emergency.

A small patrol shouldn't really need an HQ, imo. Weren't there special rules for games of 500 points or less?

Gingerwerewolf
29-08-2012, 08:56
Yes, Yes I would love it. Even in 2k point games I would love to be able to field an HQ thats less than 50 points. HQs very rarely win you battles, and Id rather have the extra couple of hundred (in some cases) points on a Unit of some sort.

OgreBattle
29-08-2012, 08:57
A small patrol shouldn't really need an HQ, imo. Weren't there special rules for games of 500 points or less?

This is also to do with Allies.

Say you have an army 2000pts total, but you want 500pts of marines to support your Guardsmen.

Shamana
29-08-2012, 09:12
@ Ogrebattle: True, it is inconvenient for allied contingents. Maybe this was not planned when they made the previous codices and will reflect in how the 6E codices are done - although both DE and GK, some of the latest 5E codices, have the options for cheap HQs.

Moriarty
29-08-2012, 09:18
Yes, Yes I would love it. Even in 2k point games I would love to be able to field an HQ thats less than 50 points. HQs very rarely win you battles, and Id rather have the extra couple of hundred (in some cases) points on a Unit of some sort.

Play Orks. Big Mek HQ (basically a Nob) for 35 pts :-)

Tarax
29-08-2012, 10:29
I was hoping 6th edition would introduce a new FOC which included 2 types of HQ, senior and junior officers if you will. In a normal FOC you could have say 1 senior and upto 2 junior officers. Take SM as an example: the Chapter Master or Captain could be the senior, while the Chaplain, Librarian and the Master of the Forge (and others) could be the juniors.
The distinction could also work for Special Characters, some of which are junior and others senior.

However, they didn't do it.

RugbySkin
29-08-2012, 13:14
Just say they're under orders/ been commandeered by/from the Inquisition and get the Inquisitors form the GK codex. 25 points for a basic guy before gear. They can get some nasty stuff pretty cheap.

MajorWesJanson
29-08-2012, 14:40
I would like to see more variation in HQs myself. Drop the price of a generic SM Captain by 25 and drop him to 2 wounds, but then give him the option to take an extra wound for 25 points. Allow chaplains and librarians to take an extra wound for 25 points. Allow generic Chapter Masters to take a fourth wound for say 40 points.

Basically, drop most lower level generic HQs to 2 wounds, but allow them to pay points to add a wound, and allow other generic HQs to purchase an extra wound.

Sai-Lauren
29-08-2012, 14:50
What about changing the FOC to something like:

500 points and under
0 HQ
1+ Troops
0-1 Heavy Support
0-2 Fast Attack
0-1 Elite
With a restriction that you must take a troops choice for each E, HS or FA choice.

malisteen
29-08-2012, 14:53
Yeah, I would love to see the return of cheaper, 2 wound HQs with the option of upgrading for an extra points cost. I tend to play smaller games myself - for time constraint reasons if nothing else, and like to use allies in larger games because my old army (chaos) was arbitrarily split into two separate factions a couple editions ago and that's the only way I can field them together anymore. In both cases, the high cost of even baseline HQs, particularly in marine books, is imo unnecessarily restrictive.

Honestly, I'd rather see both cheaper HQs introduced and the HQ slot in allied detachments made optional.

Chem-Dog
29-08-2012, 14:57
Yeah, but sergent isnt a hq choice, so games wise you cant do that, which i believe is op's point...

If you're playing at the five hundred points level, you really should be fiddling about with the FOC anyway. None of the official or sanctioned 500pt (or less) rule sets that have been used in the last handful of editions have required a HQ and many have banned anything with more than 2 wounds.



I would like to see more variation in HQs myself. Drop the price of a generic SM Captain by 25 and drop him to 2 wounds, but then give him the option to take an extra wound for 25 points. Allow chaplains and librarians to take an extra wound for 25 points. Allow generic Chapter Masters to take a fourth wound for say 40 points.

Basically, drop most lower level generic HQs to 2 wounds, but allow them to pay points to add a wound, and allow other generic HQs to purchase an extra wound.

I suspect it would be easier to add another rank in there somewhere, the idea of buying wounds doesn't feel right. For Marines, "First Sergeant". The highest ranking Sarge in the Company/battle group/strike force, the Captain's nominal second in command. A one wound Veteran Sarge+ perhaps with a little bit more wargear to choose from.

Pentregarth
29-08-2012, 15:01
Right now, about half of the codices actually have that option, even if you exclude ages old books like black templars or tau. Orks as mentioned above have the big mek (or even a naked warboss, that guy is only 60 points ^^), Space Wolves have their wolf guard hero, Dark Eldar have the Haemonculi, grey knights inquisitors, IG only costs 50 points, and thats for a squad, Daemons have heralds, Nids and Necrons never really had cheap HQ options (unless you count the hq warriors back in the day).
That leaves the various kinds of space marines (including csm), eldar and sisters (and the canoness is only 65).
Other than that, I agree with you, cheap hq choices, especially for using allies, would be nice ^^ but as Shamana pointed out, the codices closest to 6th which have already been written with the edition in mind, include such cheap hqs, so let's wait and see what the future brings

Commissar Merces
29-08-2012, 16:29
Absolutely yes.

Drasanil
29-08-2012, 19:16
I don't know even with Marines a 100 points for a captain is pretty cheap considering what you actually get for it. Considering most other armies have cheap HQs I think it strikes the right balance and keeps Marines from hording out (relatively speaking of course) in small games where their T4 3+ profile is a much bigger advantage due to the shortage of higher end killier weapons.

Lord Damocles
29-08-2012, 19:25
I was never a fan of the mini-HQs.
By the time you'd given them some kit, they ended up being the same price as the non-mini versions anyway (or were kept naked to allow for more min-max Las-Plas squads etc.)...

Most codexes contain reasonably cheap characters with fewer than 3 wounds who aren't 'overall commander' types.

The FOC doesn't really work at 500pt -type levels. Which is most likely why it was restructured for the Combat Patrol rules.
The last thing the allies rules need is for dirt cheap HQs to make the extra mandatory slot less of a negative.

Aryllon
29-08-2012, 19:45
Basic Farseer 55 points off the top of my head?
How much is a tyranid prime? Or a broodlord (unless he's a unit upgrade these days)?

I'd love to see mini HQs, like WHFB heroes. Warlocks, crypteks, techmarines, Nobz, hellion gang leaders etc should be able to lead warbands / raiding parties / allied detachments etc.

Cheaper HQs should apply for allies anyway, they're meant to be supplementary forces after all - or say you can take your 2x ally troop units without an HQ (although must include one recognisable squad leader as representative 'guy in charge'), but must add ally HQs to unlock the good stuff. By that stage you should be well over 500 points anyway, once you include the mandatory choices from primary detachment.

Xerkics
29-08-2012, 20:32
sadly broodlord is just an upgrade these days.

Ace Rimmer
29-08-2012, 21:35
Well, the cheapest farseer is 75 because he has to take at least 1 power at 20+ points. A naked Autarch is cheaper.