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Tayrod
30-08-2012, 12:10
What is the defining factor with Dark Angels? What makes them stand up against 3 attack Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, Feel no pain Death Company, and other marine goodness? What area of the battlefield to they specialize in - and what are some of the good comboes they get?

Bartali
30-08-2012, 12:20
You're a bit ahead of yourself here, the new codex will answer your questions. At the moment their old 4th ed codex doesn't have much flavour.

Saim-Hann Lord
30-08-2012, 12:41
Or how about people just field based on good old fashioned fluff and generally what looks cool? :eyebrows:

Tayrod
30-08-2012, 12:45
Oh? They are getting a new Codex? I saw they were in the starter set, but I haven't heard any rumors about a new codex (though I haven't been looking either). The reason why Im asking is because a friend of mine is picking up the starter and asked me if I wanted to buy the Dark angels half. I already have a Space Wolf and blood angel army, but I've always admired the Dark Angels iconografy and paint scheme.

Tayrod
30-08-2012, 13:17
I'd be gratefull if someone could enlighten me to the 4th edition "hallmarks" and playstyle of the Dark Angels however. I dont own the armybook, and I've never faced them, so Im blissfully ignorant about what their niche is supposed to be.

Garanaul the Black
30-08-2012, 13:19
Here's a link to the best new codex guesses thus far. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?348665-Dark-Angels-rumours)


G

Light of the Emperor
30-08-2012, 14:31
Being the first legion, the Dark Angels have access to some of the most ancient wargear and weapons. Plasma technology (which is supposed to be rare) can be found en masse within their ranks. I believe one of the Index Astartes books gave the DA the option to have plasma cannons in their tactical squads which other marine armies couldn't have at the time. Similarly, that is why Sammael is riding a jetbike. Hopefully the new codex will revert back to the idea of long lost technology being brought to battle by the DA.

In terms of organization, the Angels have two distinctions: their first and second companies. The first company is known as the Deathwing. Where as other chapters have some veterans in power armor, the Dark Angels are solely terminator based. Their armor went from black to bone to honor a single squad ridding a world of a genestealer infestation. The second company is the Ravenwing. They have kept the chapter's original legion color and now have a duty to hunt down the fallen. The entire company is mounted on bikes, attack bikes or speeders and carry teleport homers so that the Deathwing can teleport in should the fallen be found.

Unfortunately, much of what makes the Dark Angels unique has been lost with the updates of more recent marine books. As a result, they look quite bland in comparison. Given GW's recent codex updates, I expect a lot of exciting things to come about!

Playing DA, you can essentially have four different armies: Solid terminators (Deathwing), solid bikes (Ravenwing), a mixture of both (Doublewing) or both companies and standard marine selections. The background and color scheme make for a great army. If you enjoy fluff and want the honor above all your other marine playing friends in being the FIRST legion, then play DA. I enjoy my Ravenwing immensely though Cypher has still eluded me.

For the Lion!!!

PointBlank
30-08-2012, 16:53
What makes them stand up against 3 attack Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, Feel no pain Death Company, and other marine goodness?

Hopefully nothing. I'm utterly sick of every chapter needing a plethora of special rules and uber-units to make it appealing. They have their unique company organisation and (from the rumours) possibly a special rule involving standards that allows them to alter their tactical play style based on which one is chosen. Personally I'd be quite cool with just that, maybe a better selection of upgrade options (although even that stems from a half-assed attempt to add something 'different' to the DA during 2nd/3rd ed. ) and some new special characters for flavour.

blackcherry
30-08-2012, 17:21
As it is, they have very little to define them from a typical codex chapter as featured in the Space Marine codex, most of what was unique at the time being borrowed or improved upon by later books. Background wise, well thats another story.

Depending on who is in the conversation DA are the winners of a conflict that happened on their homeworld that makes them either traitors or the most loyal legion ever. It can get very heated when that topic comes up.

Vaktathi
30-08-2012, 17:30
What is the defining factor with Dark Angels? What makes them stand up against 3 attack Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, Feel no pain Death Company, and other marine goodness? What area of the battlefield to they specialize in - and what are some of the good comboes they get?
They're a relatively codex adherent chapter that utilizes two of their companies (1st company terminators and bikers) in a different manner than ultra-codex adherent chapters. That's really about it. BA's were once very similar until they got their "we need to come up with a reason to justify this books existence so lets toss in a bunch of random new stuff that's really mostly weapon/FoC swaps" update. :p

A.T.
30-08-2012, 17:30
I'd be gratefull if someone could enlighten me to the 4th edition "hallmarks" and playstyle of the Dark Angels however.Scouting bikes with teleport homers and a whole bunch of well equipped, scoring, fearless terminators teleporting onto the table in the first turn.

Outside of the Deathwing and Ravenwing (terminators and bikes) the 4th ed DE codex is as outdated as you would expect relative to the 5th ed books - if you've ever seen the WD Blood Angels list it's essentially the same set of core units, not sternguard, thunderfires, etc.


Back in 2nd ed they were notable for having a number of banners which gave the marines various bonuses in combat - wouldn't be surprised to see that theme back in their next dex.

PointBlank
31-08-2012, 08:45
Back in 2nd ed they were notable for having a number of banners which gave the marines various bonuses in combat - wouldn't be surprised to see that theme back in their next dex.

Rumour mill says this is back in. Part of a strategy to allow you to make changes to army play style without having to take a particular special character maybe.

Chem-Dog
31-08-2012, 09:04
I'm holding out hope we'll see Watcher-in-the-Dark drawn Power Rickshaws to be an effective counter to Thunder Wolf Cavalry.


Seriously though, a few extra WitD's would be cool.

Andy089
31-08-2012, 09:26
I would love to see a single (hard cover) "Adeptus Astartes" book. With a special chapter tactics section that doesn't depend on ICs, but rather the other way around: Salamander shouldn't contain Marneus Calgar, except if he takes up an allies slot. You know what I mean....

OgreBattle
31-08-2012, 09:32
I hope the word SECRETS is used as often as WOLVES and BLOOD



I would love to see a single (hard cover) "Adeptus Astartes" book. With a special chapter tactics section that doesn't depend on ICs, but rather the other way around: Salamander shouldn't contain Marneus Calgar, except if he takes up an allies slot. You know what I mean....

The 4e codex refined? That'd be nice.

I'll go write one in my free time.

Cacodemon
31-08-2012, 11:50
I hope the word SECRETS is used as often as WOLVES and BLOOD

I'm betting on the word DARK. Watch out for DARK Missiles coming your way. Make sure not to go overboard with Mortis Dreads and leave all your DARK Fists.

Zeroth
31-08-2012, 12:33
At the moment Dark Angels do nothing that a Space Marine player can't do and they cost more. So what can you do with the Dark Angel book? Very little.

They got one trick and that's turning terminators into troops. They did it pretty damn well in 5th, I haven't really had my Deathwing playing enough 6th games to tell you how they work now.

Either way, as pointed out earlier they are getting a new book so don't bother trying to find some awesome combo in their current codex. (Not that there is one)

Starchild
31-08-2012, 23:36
@Zeroth: Dark Angels still have Deathwing Assault but Drop Pod Assault is arguably just as good, if not better since tactical squads are more numerous and more flexible than Terminators.

PANZERBUNNY
01-09-2012, 00:13
Terminators as troop choices may help them out.

Andy089
01-09-2012, 00:17
Things that come to mind when possibilities about the new codex are mentioned:
-) Terminators as troops (deathwing)
-) Bikes as troops (ravenwing)
-) Twin-linked plasma weapons (or at least re-roll gets hot), like vulcans chapter tactics
-) New Land speeder
-) plasma variant for Predator/Razorback (maybe even a rhino with pintle-mounted plasma gun?) and maybe more plasma for infantry
-) Fancy interrogators
-) Something about the fallen/cypher?
-) If you really want to go way over board: Jetbikes for fast attack or elite (but at least for one HQ)
-) watchers in the dark
maybe some more but I'm too tired...

Col. Tartleton
01-09-2012, 00:25
They're the coolest looking Legion. They're also still a Legion. But don't tell anyone. That's kind of their motto. "*Insert Shocking Secret* but don't tell anyone."

The Black Templars have far too many marines justified by the fact their crusades are haphazardly smashing people in the face in every segmentum simultaneously and even they don't really know how many Marines they have due to lack of good communication and a fetish for all or nothing last stands and charging dramatically when they really ought to withdraw.

On the other hand the Dark Angels are clandestinely operating all of the successors as Chapters of the Legion under the direct command of the Supreme Grandmaster... So yeah, the Ultramarines and Inquisition would be upset. Never you fear though, because no one will ever know. No one will ever live to talk about it.

The Dark Angels are generally seen to be the first and best chapter in the Imperium (not the Ultramarines), although they're also killing anyone who has found reasons to question said reputation. Of course they're occasionally unreliable, highly secretive, and tend to ignore "The Mission" and do their own thing. So I guess, yeah, the Ultramarines are technically better at the whole "Heroes of the Imperium" gig. But everyone knows that's lame.

So imagine the discipline of the Ultramarines, the lack of ***** given by the Space Wolves, and a strange history of having their allies disappear.

Did I mention they blasted their homeworld into an asteroid field to do damage control?

On the plus side they turned the ruins of their terrestrial fortress monastery into a huge spaceship full of all kinds of ancient relics, loot, and dark age tech.

Malachi
01-09-2012, 02:28
Pretty good way of describing them.

Too bad our new codex won't give us half as many props as that.

viv714r
01-09-2012, 22:37
Pretty good way of describing them.

Too bad our new codex won't give us half as many props as that.
Ah but there's the beauty of it. We are the unsung heroes, the watchers in the dark (not literally), the silent shield of a thousand worlds, we are not the heroes that Imerium wants, we are the heroes that they need. We are the Dark Angels. :skull:

Spiney Norman
01-09-2012, 23:03
What is the defining factor with Dark Angels? What makes them stand up against 3 attack Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, Feel no pain Death Company, and other marine goodness? What area of the battlefield to they specialize in - and what are some of the good comboes they get?

As things stand at the moment they have the best fluff of any space marine chapter in existence, other than that, not much really. Terminators that can guarantee dropping on the first turn and the only Jetbike in the imperium.

Anything that makes the Dark Angels unique has really got to be technological really because they're supposed to have the purest gene seed of any space marine chapter, which means no wolf-mutants or raging psychopaths.

GiraffeCrab
01-09-2012, 23:20
Col. Tartleton (http://www.warseer.com/forums/member.php?37577-Col-Tartleton) : and a strange history of having their allies disappear (sorry technology baffles me and im still getting use to quoting)

Reminds me of that story in the BT book when a crusade fleet finds a mysterious black armoured marine on a xenos planet and then the dark angles turn up whisk him away and the BT fleet is never heard from again. They are the slightly more sinister good guys in my opinion. Also as far as I remember (and it has been a very long time since I looked at 40k fluff) their primarch was like tarzan on a death world which as far as im aware turned into some sort of monster slaying knight of doom, i may be wrong it has been a good while.

Though a friend of mine that worked at the HQ for a while said there was an in joke about him being based on lionel johnson, but make of that what you will.

Chem-Dog
02-09-2012, 00:48
Pretty good way of describing them.

Too bad our new codex won't give us half as many props as that.

Have you seen any of the Space Marine Codexes from the most recent round?! Your next Codex will give you so many props that you'll probably get quite distressed.



Though a friend of mine that worked at the HQ for a while said there was an in joke about him being based on lionel johnson, but make of that what you will.

I don't think it's a joke so much as a direct nod. Lionel Johnson, the poet, wrote "The Dark Angel".

Fugazi
02-09-2012, 01:23
Being the first legion, the Dark Angels have access to some of the most ancient wargear and weapons.
...
Playing DA, you can essentially have four different armies: Solid terminators (Deathwing), solid bikes (Ravenwing), a mixture of both (Doublewing) or both companies and standard marine selections.
They've always had fun variants. I hope the new book has good, new artwork.

DA were even cooler when they all wore black armor.


I'm betting on the word DARK. Watch out for DARK Missiles coming your way. Make sure not to go overboard with Mortis Dreads and leave all your DARK Fists.
Dark Mortis Secrets.

Max_Killfactor
02-09-2012, 02:18
They're the coolest looking Legion. They're also still a Legion. But don't tell anyone. That's kind of their motto. "*Insert Shocking Secret* but don't tell anyone."

The Black Templars have far too many marines justified by the fact their crusades are haphazardly smashing people in the face in every segmentum simultaneously and even they don't really know how many Marines they have due to lack of good communication and a fetish for all or nothing last stands and charging dramatically when they really ought to withdraw.

On the other hand the Dark Angels are clandestinely operating all of the successors as Chapters of the Legion under the direct command of the Supreme Grandmaster... So yeah, the Ultramarines and Inquisition would be upset. Never you fear though, because no one will ever know. No one will ever live to talk about it.

The Dark Angels are generally seen to be the first and best chapter in the Imperium (not the Ultramarines), although they're also killing anyone who has found reasons to question said reputation. Of course they're occasionally unreliable, highly secretive, and tend to ignore "The Mission" and do their own thing. So I guess, yeah, the Ultramarines are technically better at the whole "Heroes of the Imperium" gig. But everyone knows that's lame.

So imagine the discipline of the Ultramarines, the lack of ***** given by the Space Wolves, and a strange history of having their allies disappear.

Did I mention they blasted their homeworld into an asteroid field to do damage control?

On the plus side they turned the ruins of their terrestrial fortress monastery into a huge spaceship full of all kinds of ancient relics, loot, and dark age tech.

Uh..... I want to start Dark Angels now. You sold them.

I knew all of this stuff already, but I don't know.... the way you put it made them seem more badass.

Definitely getting a Dark Vengeance box set at least, or two :shifty:

Starchild
02-09-2012, 02:29
The Dark Vengeance box is an excellent way to start Dark Angels. The quality of the models is far better than the (mostly) rubbish chapter upgrade sprue.

Lord-Caerolion
02-09-2012, 04:40
Hopefully nothing. I'm utterly sick of every chapter needing a plethora of special rules and uber-units to make it appealing. They have their unique company organisation and (from the rumours) possibly a special rule involving standards that allows them to alter their tactical play style based on which one is chosen. Personally I'd be quite cool with just that, maybe a better selection of upgrade options (although even that stems from a half-assed attempt to add something 'different' to the DA during 2nd/3rd ed. ) and some new special characters for flavour.

Well, if they're getting their own seperate Codex, I'd hope they have something more to differentiate them from the standard codex than "Our Terminators/Bikers have special names, and we can take a single special banner". That's not a new codex, that's a single-page errata to the Ultramarine codex. Of course, I'm a fan of the Dark Angels getting put back into the Ultramarine codex, but with their own Chapter Tactics, as I don't want to see the Dark Angels get crap made up on them to justify new units out of nowhere and strange wargear.

I mean, I love the Dark Angels, I just don't see how, as they currently stand, their codex can ever feel like anything other than an add-on for the Ultramarine codex.

MajorWesJanson
02-09-2012, 05:11
Things that come to mind when possibilities about the new codex are mentioned:
-) Terminators as troops (deathwing)
-) Bikes as troops (ravenwing)
-) Twin-linked plasma weapons (or at least re-roll gets hot), like vulcans chapter tactics
-) New Land speeder
-) plasma variant for Predator/Razorback (maybe even a rhino with pintle-mounted plasma gun?) and maybe more plasma for infantry
-) Fancy interrogators
-) Something about the fallen/cypher?
-) If you really want to go way over board: Jetbikes for fast attack or elite (but at least for one HQ)
-) watchers in the dark
maybe some more but I'm too tired...

Some ideas of my own on reading this list:
Terminators as elites, but troops if you take Belial or a captain/company master in Terminator Armor
Bikes as FA, troops if more than 5 in the squad and you take Sammael or a company master on a bike.
Sammael makes bike squads, attack bike squads, and landspeeders scoring.
Heavy Flamer and Plasma cannon option for attack bikes.
Plasma cannon pintle and underslung mount option for landspeeders
Chaplains as 2 wound Elite models, Interrogator Chaplains as 3 wound HQ models.
More pintle mount options for rhinos and other vehicles- combi-weapons.
Mortis Dreadnought in Heavy Support- if stationary, can choose to either fire as skyfire or as tank hunter.
"Hunt the Fallen" army-wide rule. At the start of the game, choose one enemy HQ choice or Independent character. This model/unit is either suspected of being one of the fallen or has information about the whereabouts of one. When the game ends, if the DA player has killed the designated model, they gain an additional Victory point.
Add Storm Talon and Landspeeder Storm to the codex. LSS as dedicated transport for scouts. Move scouts to FA, but keep the WS/BS4.

MikeyB
02-09-2012, 11:45
I hope the word SECRETS is used as often as WOLVES and BLOOD

[QUOTE=Cacodemon;6401134]I'm betting on the word DARK. Watch out for DARK Missiles coming your way. Make sure not to go overboard with Mortis Dreads and leave all your DARK Fists.

Dark Secret Missiles! Str10 AP1 10” But you have to roll to see if pilot is high enough rank to know they exist ^_^

viv714r
02-09-2012, 15:14
Well, if they're getting their own seperate Codex, I'd hope they have something more to differentiate them from the standard codex than "Our Terminators/Bikers have special names, and we can take a single special banner". That's not a new codex, that's a single-page errata to the Ultramarine codex. Of course, I'm a fan of the Dark Angels getting put back into the Ultramarine codex, but with their own Chapter Tactics, as I don't want to see the Dark Angels get crap made up on them to justify new units out of nowhere and strange wargear.

I mean, I love the Dark Angels, I just don't see how, as they currently stand, their codex can ever feel like anything other than an add-on for the Ultramarine codex.

An add-on? You make it sound like DLC. The Dark Angels are fiercly independant. You can't have them in the same Codex because there would be no room to fit in the best and most contoversial backround of all the First Founding Chapters.

Lord-Caerolion
02-09-2012, 17:10
That's because, as it stands, the Dark Angels are an add-on to the Loyalist book, just how their previous codex was. Seriously, what is there to differentiate the two, really? They have different named Chaplains, Terminators and Bikes/Speeders, and... actually, that's literally it, pretty much. At least the Ravenwing get special rules, the Deathwing are just a combination of Assault and standard Terminators, and the Chaplain just gets a 3-wound version with a special name. Just try telling me that that isn't able to be represented perfectly with Chapter Tactics.

Yes, they have awesome fluff, and I'm a massive fan of theirs. I'm just scared of what new units might be pulled out of GWs collective asses to justify them being an entirely seperate codex, rather than the "no seriously, they're totally different" book we've got now. Their fluff is awesome, don't get me wrong, and I'm planning to start an Angels of Absolution army, but I just don't see them as divergent enough rules-wise to properly justify a seperate codex.

To put it another way, how do the Dark Angels 3rd through to 10th Companies differ in any way to the Ultramarines 3rd-10th? There's no different organisation like the Wolves/Templars, there's no different equipment, they don't have freaky geneseed like the Blood Angels. They're bog-standard Marines. The only way they differ is in the Deathwing (which are essentially specially-named Terminators), and the Ravenwing (which are veteran Bikers/Speeders). HQs? Differently named Chaplain, standard Captain, Librarian with some different powers. Yes, they have fluff that takes a lot of room to explain fully, but so do the Iron Hands, and the White Scars, or the Imperial Fists.

I'd rather see the Dark Angels placed gracefully into the Loyalist codex, with considerations of damn good Chapter Tactics to allow for Ravenwing and the combo Deathwing squads, than risk Mat Ward coming along and giving us the Lion Cavalry armed with Angel Claws, and the Dreadnoughts with Lion Fists, while Stormravens fire Angel Missiles after using their special rule, Skies of Lion Angels. However, I can't see that happening, so I can only hope that the Dark Angels just get stuff similar to what MajorWesJanson says. Unfortunately, his suggestions won't give GW their big new plastic release to draw in the new players, instead just being wargear upgrades to everybodies existing models.

Chivs
02-09-2012, 22:36
Aside from a truly excellent backstory, the Dark Angels no longer have anything that holds them in a unique state. Even the things that supposedly only the Dark Angels should do, has now either been included for other chapters as well, or should be.

Back in 2nd Edition, with Codex: Angels of Death, the Dark Angels were only slightly divergent from the Codex Astartes. "An outside observer would find it difficult to spot any differences between the Dark Angels and a strict codex chapter like the Ultramarines." (C: AoD P36). As others have said, it's only the Deathwing and Ravenwing that differ from other codex chapters. In game terms in second edition, the changes were fairly minimal.

Deathwing changes: All Characters and Deathwing Squads were immune to Psychology for a slight points increase. Dark Angels could not take Veteran Squads in place of this, as they only fought in Terminator Armour. In later editions this has carried through as the Dark Angels being the only chapter able to field an all Terminator force (All armies could field all Terminator armies back in 2nd Ed due to no force organisation chart - Space Wolves may be an exception, I can't speak for them).

This is a fallacy that should not exist. Both Codex: Ultramarines and the Blood Angels section list their First companies containing 20 squads worth of Terminator Armour. Codex: Ultramarines explicitly states that at full strength, the chapter can field 20 squads (C: U P24). As for the Deathwing, "Only in the face of the most dangerous foes or threat would the entire company of twenty Terminator squads be mustered together. The Deathwing's more usual role is pinpoint strikes by individual squads to put the fear of the Emperor into the hearts of his enemies." (C: AoD P40).
In addition, in a 2000pt game we're talking 10 Terminator Squads at most, without any support vehicles (e.g. Land Raiders) or Characters. A more reasonable army could then be a Character, 4-5 squads, 2 Dreadnoughts and 2 Landraiders. This hardly sounds beyond the reach of most Codex Chapters. In fact Planetstrike allows every other codex chapter to do this anyway.

The other thing that currently makes Deathwing squads unique is a fixed squad size and the ability to mix and match between guns and assault weapons. I've never truly understood why every other chapter separated these squads anyway, as it was possible for all chapters to do so in 2nd Ed. Surely it makes more tactical sense for your Terminator squads to be ready to deal with any circumstance...

Ravenwing changes: All bikes and Landspeeders gained the Jink and Expert rider special rules (harder to hit and able to reroll bike skid tests). Attack Bikes and Landspeeder squads were squads rather than support choices, meaning theoretically that you could take an all Landspeeder army (Ultramarines could take Bikes as Squad choices). The Master of the Ravenwing could ride in a Bike (not jetbike) or Landspeeder (not even a special landspeeder). The biggest difference though was Landspeeders didn't have the Heavy Flamer/Multimelta armaments that every other chapter did. In their place (not in addition), they had the Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon armament which has since spread to every chapter. This was called a Ravenwing Landspeeder, something I find ironic in that the Dark Angels can no longer field squadrons with this armament as the Assault Cannon is a 1 per squad upgrade.

Every codex chapter could, and still can, take all bike armies. Even though you couldn't take them in 2nd Edition, The Dark Angels 6th company (as with the Blood Angels and the Ultramarines) could all be fielded on Bikes, the 7th Company can all be fielded as Landspeeders, and the 8th Company can field everyone as a mix (as well as being all Assault Marines). Whilst the Ravenwing are supposed to be better than the others (which has since been seen as cutting into White Scars territory), all chapters can field Bike armies.

The only other differences were Special Characters, and a few wargear options on those special characters. That is it! There is no fascination with Plasma, simply due to one line in the 3rd edition codex allowing Tactical Squads to take Plasma Cannons when others couldn't. Their scouts are not better than every other chapter, with better stats and status as an elite element. These have all been added later. Whilst the Dark Angels are the first legion formed, there is nothing in Codex: Angels of Death that idnicates that they've got equipment others don't because of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flash forward to the dawn of 6th Edition. A Ravenwing army can be adequately played with Codex: Space Marines. As I have 6 metal Ravenwing Landspeeders that have the Assault Cannon fixed to the main hull, I couldn't actually play my own Ravenwing army with the proper rules. Dark Angels can take an all Terminator army, though they shouldn't be the only chapter able to do so. They do not have access to Sternguard or Vanguard Veterans (which used to be Blood Angels only - along with the Death Company their only changes. I could do a similar rant about the Blood Angels but won't do so here). For some reason, Company Veterans were invented; actually the reason given in the White Dwarf designers notes was as a place to spend spare points due to the strict restrictions in squad sizes everywhere else. But unless you want to use a Deathwing army, or are really attached to a special character, Codex: Space Marines does the army better and cheaper. This is not enough justification for the Chapter to have it's own book, and divert resources away from other armies that need them more.

This is why I echo the fears others have expressed of the gimicky additions that will need to be added to justify this book, and I shudder to think what they will be. I've never bought the 4th Edition Codex as I didn't like the changes it made. I doubt if I'll buy the 6th Edition one either due to these changes that will need to come. I've been perfectly happy using Codex: Space Marines and I know I'm not alone in this. I first started my Dark Angels army in 1995.

A terrific background isn't enough to justify a new book. For those who want to play a Dark Angels army, I would recommend using the Vanilla Space Marine book, and buying Angels of Death over eBay for that background. You can paint your bikes black and your terminators bone; they just don't get special rules over normal Space Marines. You can hunt down enemy characters who might have knowledge of the Fallen; you just won't gain a benefit or penalty on your success or failure short of personal pride. You can paint your Space Marines Dark Green, name the characters after legendary Dark Angels heroes, dress in robes... whatever you want, without need of a seperate book saying that you can. The Dark Angels should be rolled into Codex Space Marines, their background included (along with Imperial Fists and others) with only a few pages needed about how the chapter works differently on the table. Unfortunately there are too many people who will demand that their chapter is treated uniquely, often only citing the other codices as a valid reason: "Blood Angels got their own book, so we should too!"

TLDR: The past differences between the Dark Angels and other chapters was minimal, and is now almost non existant. The only way to justify a new book will be to add gimicky rules, which should scare any Dark Angels player. Just get Codex: Angels of Death from eBay for the background and use Codex: Space Marines.

PS: Try and find Storm of Vengeance too for the true history of the Piscina IV campaign, when Belial was the Master of the 3rd Company, not the Deathwing. He never even met Ghazghkull, let alone almost getting killed by him...

Starchild
02-09-2012, 22:55
That's because, as it stands, the Blood Angels are an add-on to the Loyalist book, just how their previous codex was. Seriously, what is there to differentiate the two, really? Death Company and Sanguinary Guard and The Red Thirst and elite Apothecaries, three additional dreadnought variants, Lucifer engines, Storm Ravens, and deep striking Land Raiders.:p

If GW can differentiate a chapter that used to have only the Death Company as the divergent trait, they can make Dark Angels just as interesting. Let's look at Blood Angels a bit more closely:

Chapter Ability: The Red Thirst, Black Rage

Unique Units: Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Sanguinary Priests, Storm Raven (shared with GK), Furioso Dread., Librarian Dread., Death Company Dread., Baal Predator

That's two chapter traits and eight unique units for Blood Angels.

All the Dark Angels need is one or two chapter traits and six unique new units (eight minus Deathwing and Ravenwing) to make them as differentiated as the Blood Angels.

1 - 3 Chaplains as elites could count as a "new" unit-- Interrogator-Chaplain Seraphicus in Dark Vengeance has an upgraded Litanies of Hate (reroll both hits and wounds) so there's a clue right there.

Six new units wouldn't be difficult to create. Five of the eight unique Blood Angel units are vehicles. That leaves possibly three unique infantry units.

There's also unique wargear and psychic powers to account for. Overall I'd say Dark Angels will offer plenty of divergence for anyone wanting something different in a Space Marine army. :skull:

TheDoctor
02-09-2012, 23:07
Have you seen any of the Space Marine Codexes from the most recent round?! Your next Codex will give you so many props that you'll probably get quite distressed.

I wonder how many Avatars Azrael will kill? Or maybe Azrael, Belial, and Sammael will all get an Avatar each?

Anyway, joking aside, I think the current codex sums it up well, under "why play dark angels"
"... the Dark Angels appeal to players who like their Space Marines dark, gothic, and sinister."

Lord Zarkov
02-09-2012, 23:25
The Blood Angels book didn't add all the much to the 3rd Ed list though:
Storm Raven, Sanguinary Guard and the Libby Dread upgrade are the only completely new things.
IC Sanguinary Priests and the weaker Chaplains were already there, but got demoted from HQ to Elites; and the Death Company Dread was previously a Special Character who's now a standard unit. The way you get Death Company also changed (from random models from each unit to buying units).

Even in the 3rd Ed pamphlet they had Furioso's, Death Company, Sanguinary (High) Priests and Baal Preds over normal Space Marines, not to mention "Veteran Assault Squads" with Jump Packs which were BA only at the time.

In addition they had Red Thirst, Black Rage, and the Overcharged Engines as army-wide Special Rules. (Plus special equipment and SCs)

DA meanwhile had stubborn on Death Wing, Jink saves on Ravenwing, plus some different weapon options and special equipment and SC's. IIRC they didn't have any sort of 'DA only' special units - unlike BA or SW (or BT which came much later).

I dread to think what they'll come up with when they make a fist full of new units to justify the codex.

Starchild
03-09-2012, 00:10
@Lord Zarkov: The intent of that list was to point out how the current Blood Angels codex is different from the current Codex Space Marines, regardless of the model release history.

By this criteria all the Dark Angels need are some new vehicles, a few new infantry units (of any type), a chapter trait (army-wide stubborn?), unique wargear, and unique psychic powers.

This will fully justify the army receiving its own codex and it will not be rolled into Codex Space Marines. It's not going to be as difficult as some make it out to be.

Athlan na Dyr
03-09-2012, 01:18
The Dark Angels should be rolled into Codex Space Marines, their background included (along with Imperial Fists and others) with only a few pages needed about how the chapter works differently on the table.

TLDR: The past differences between the Dark Angels and other chapters was minimal, and is now almost non existant. The only way to justify a new book will be to add gimicky rules, which should scare any Dark Angels player. Just get Codex: Angels of Death from eBay for the background and use Codex: Space Marines.

Now, even as a xenos player (filthy heretic that I am), I disagree with this. Of all the various flavours of Space Marines, the only two that I've ever thought of starting in almost ten years of 40k are Chaos Marines and the Dark Angels (why yes, I will be getting Dark Vengeance. How ever could you tell?) for the pure and simple reason that these two are grungier than the rest of them. Unlike the whiter-than-white, holier-than-thou Ultramarines and other 'heroic' Chapters, the Dark Angels fight for their own damned ends and rarely give a fig for the common citizenry they are meant to be protecting, which for me fits in far better with the setting. "You will not be missed" has always been the line that summed up the Imperial mindset of 40k.
Should your suggestion of rolling the DA into Codex: Ultramarines and special character buddies occur, we all know that the DA are suddenly going to turn into some lame chapter with a secret that strives to become Ultramarines. Excuse me whilst I yawn from excitement.
It would not be hard to differentiate the Dark Angels.
Lets look at a few of the defining traits of the Dark Angels:
> A unique Chaplaincy
> The hunt
> Loads of Terminators
> Veteran company formations
> Being the 1st Legion
> Having a floating asteroid full of Dark Age Tech

So, lets have a look at plausible changes that would separate the Dark Angels
> A split between the regulars and the two Wings: To elaborate, it allows the Dark Angels to field the standard bikers and terminators codex chapters have, with an option to upgrade to veterans with far better wargear options (and stats for the Ravenwing). Helps to reinforce the experienced and veteran nature of the two wings, who are the absolute cream of the Chapter. Justification for this could be the two wings being far more active than most codex chapters and are given far wider access to the armoury due to the importance of hunting the fallen. For example, the Deathwing might be able to equip Plasma Cannons, conversion beamers, relic blades or other esoteric and Captain-level weaponry.

> Unique formations: Essentially allows multiple units to be folded into one entry. So Deathwing + Veteran Dreadnoughts count as a single unit for the purposes of deep striking/ regular deployment/ reserves/ force organisation. Similarly the Ravenwing and the various Land Speeders and Attack bikes (with more flexibility than they currently have, and with the speeders and attack bikes having upgrades to represent the Ravenwing's veteran nature).

> Fallen hunting goodness: If you've been hunting chaos tainted heretics for over 9000 years, you'd think the Dark Angels would have learned a trick or two to help them. Whilst it would mostly be wargear for HQ's (say a force weapon with 1 instant death charge that can be taken by a non psyker, or some form of caging device to deal with IC's), there could also be vehicle patterns specialised in this.

> Crusade (or pre-Crusade) Era Tech: Forge World already did something similar with the Mortis Pattern Dread. Having access to similar contemptor pattern dreads or other dread types should GW not want to nick Forge World's idea (chaplain dreads are a common idea I believe) or merely making the Dreads a lot more customisable would be nice. Couple it with things like conversion beamer arrays (or a new old weapon. Macro-Cannon perhaps?) and you'd have a nice representation of the tech at the Dark Angel's disposal.

> Chaplain effects: Seeing as it is a Chapter's Chaplains whom are responsible for overseeing the training of marines (or at least, so I've gathered from BL fiction.), it would make sense that the more active chaplaincy of the Dark Angels would be able to train their marines to specialise in a few areas, which could be represented by them giving a special rule (selected from a shortlist) to a squad they join, with an Interrogator Chaplain granting a bubble effect. Of course it would suffer from MSS (Magic Stick Syndrome), but it would be different until its folded into codex: space marines.

The above is just a few things that someone without a great deal of knowledge about the Dark Angels can come up with in 15 minutes. The above suggestions would allow the codex to play like the regular marine book minus some elements or up to a highly elite and specialised force, with a fair amount of scope in between.

And another thumbs up for Col. Tartleton's Dark Angel summary

viv714r
03-09-2012, 01:27
@ lord Calerion, I see what your saying and I get where you're coming from but if there comes a day when the ultrmarines gives all the other vanilla chapters breathig room then I might just grit my teeth and roll over but until then I'd like to see what they do with this codex before cursing whatever person they got to do it.

Atrocitus
03-09-2012, 01:39
Personally, I would be happy to get rolled into Codex: Space Marine, if we became the cover chapter that is. Surely the Ultras wouldn't mind stepping aside for the First Legion, finally recognizing the true spiritual liege of all space marines.

Joking aside, GW managed to make an overall good and unique book for Blood Angels. Sure the over use of the word blood in the wargear was silly, but it was a solid army that plays very differently from the standard codex counterpart. Presuming a developer at GW can figure out a way to make DA play uniquely to C:SM they should remain their own book. Just hope we get somebody different then Ward, though I do like his new Necron codex...don't burn me I am new!

Chivs
03-09-2012, 12:54
Now, even as a xenos player (filthy heretic that I am), I disagree with this.

Foul Xenos? Thanks for adding diversity to the game! Whilst Dark Angels were my first army and are being revisited periodically, my main focus these days is on my Orks and Dark Eldar.


Of all the various flavours of Space Marines, the only two that I've ever thought of starting in almost ten years of 40k are Chaos Marines and the Dark Angels (why yes, I will be getting Dark Vengeance. How ever could you tell?) for the pure and simple reason that these two are grungier than the rest of them. Unlike the whiter-than-white, holier-than-thou Ultramarines and other 'heroic' Chapters, the Dark Angels fight for their own damned ends and rarely give a fig for the common citizenry they are meant to be protecting, which for me fits in far better with the setting. "You will not be missed" has always been the line that summed up the Imperial mindset of 40k.
Should your suggestion of rolling the DA into Codex: Ultramarines and special character buddies occur, we all know that the DA are suddenly going to turn into some lame chapter with a secret that strives to become Ultramarines. Excuse me whilst I yawn from excitement.

Believe me I would not want the Dark Angels background rolled into the Ultramarine fawning one that currently exists. Far from it. I’d rather see a Codex: Space Marines that covers background from multiple chapters. I’d like to know a little bit more about Rogal Dorn for example, who barely gets a mention apart from teleporting onto Horus’s battle barge (he finds the Emperor’s body but little else is mentioned) and he was opposed to splitting up his legion. My ideal option would be for slightly divergent chapters to have mini-dexes again, but larger than the 3rd Ed pamphlets. You can go into the unique Dark Angels background without needing to repeat all the generic Space Marine stuff, and you can keep the army list down to only a handful of changes. It doesn’t take as much time to produce, which means it doesn’t stop other factions from being updated (like all those ‘foul xenos’).That said, I do disagree with all your other points:


It would not be hard to differentiate the Dark Angels.
Lets look at a few of the defining traits of the Dark Angels:
> A unique Chaplaincy
> The hunt
> Loads of Terminators
> Veteran company formations
> Being the 1st Legion
> Having a floating asteroid full of Dark Age Tech


So, lets have a look at plausible changes that would separate the Dark Angels
> A split between the regulars and the two Wings: To elaborate, it allows the Dark Angels to field the standard bikers and terminators codex chapters have, with an option to upgrade to veterans with far better wargear options (and stats for the Ravenwing). Helps to reinforce the experienced and veteran nature of the two wings, who are the absolute cream of the Chapter. Justification for this could be the two wings being far more active than most codex chapters and are given far wider access to the armoury due to the importance of hunting the fallen. For example, the Deathwing might be able to equip Plasma Cannons, conversion beamers, relic blades or other esoteric and Captain-level weaponry.

> Unique formations: Essentially allows multiple units to be folded into one entry. So Deathwing + Veteran Dreadnoughts count as a single unit for the purposes of deep striking/ regular deployment/ reserves/ force organisation. Similarly the Ravenwing and the various Land Speeders and Attack bikes (with more flexibility than they currently have, and with the speeders and attack bikes having upgrades to represent the Ravenwing's veteran nature).

Deathwing aren’t any more Veteran than any other chapter’s first company, or at least not noticeable enough to make any tabletop difference than adding Fearless. The d6/10point stat system is restrictive in allowing any one faction to be better than any other by a minor amount. An increase by 1 pt in WS would put them at the level of many characters, leaving them nowhere else to go to be better than veterans. Terminator Armour is also very restrictive in what weapons troops can carry. The Assault Cannon and Cyclone missile launcher were developed to widen the range of weaponry a Terminator can carry. It doesn’t make any sense to add an ability allowing Deathwing to carry Plasma Cannons or the like when no one else can. The Dark Angels so called fascination with Plasma is abhorrent to many veteran Dark Angels players, as there is very little justification for it. The new Dark Vengeance models don’t exactly help with this though :-p.
Whilst the 4th Edition codex may have changed things a little, the Ravenwing aren’t actually veterans in the same way that the Deathwing are. Apart from to attend Chapter rituals, they eat, sleep and live in the saddle, but they are not as experienced as the Deathwing are. The special rules in 2nd Ed reflected their improved riding skills, but their stats did not change, and nor should they. Also, whilst the Ravenwing are often called upon to hunt down Chaos Space Marines, they are not aware of their chapter’s history (Save the Master of the Ravenwing): “Even the Space Marines of the Ravenwing are unaware that the Chaos Space Marines they are so often called upon to hunt down were once fellow Dark Angels.” I can’t see what special wargear they should gain (outside of Teleport Homers perhaps) that another Chapter wouldn’t find useful for the Hit and Run or Search and Destroy operations that the Ravenwing excel at.


> Fallen hunting goodness: If you've been hunting chaos tainted heretics for over 9000 years, you'd think the Dark Angels would have learned a trick or two to help them. Whilst it would mostly be wargear for HQ's (say a force weapon with 1 instant death charge that can be taken by a non psyker, or some form of caging device to deal with IC's), there could also be vehicle patterns specialised in this.

Whilst Hunting down the Fallen is an essential part of what the Dark Angels strive to do, remember that only the Deathwing are aware of this task. The rest of the Chapter are unlikely to receive training any different to any other Space Marine chapter: I’m sure there are times when it is important to capture a person/alien alive for whatever purposes. Dark Angels characters and Veteran Sergeants (ie anyone who could get Wargear) are all members of the Deathwing and so I’m sure are capable of incapacitating a foe without needing specialised equipment, especially as the most common targets for information regarding a Fallen Angel will be human (Guardmen or civilian – Relatively Easy to incapacitate without killing) or an Astartes (significant healing abilities so can likely survive being incapacitated). This may not be what you meant, but I dread the idea of Dark Angels characters running around with the equivalent of nets and Runtherd Grabba Sticks.
The other thing to remember with regards to the fallen is that they are hard to find. “The Dark Angels can go for years without hearing any rumours that might lead them to one of more of the Fallen.” It shouldn’t really be an ability that can affect one game out of six (a la the 3rd Edition codex), especially when it’s hard to justify with some opponents: Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos Daemons sound the hardest to interrogate to me!


> Crusade (or pre-Crusade) Era Tech: Forge World already did something similar with the Mortis Pattern Dread. Having access to similar contemptor pattern dreads or other dread types should GW not want to nick Forge World's idea (chaplain dreads are a common idea I believe) or merely making the Dreads a lot more customisable would be nice. Couple it with things like conversion beamer arrays (or a new old weapon. Macro-Cannon perhaps?) and you'd have a nice representation of the tech at the Dark Angel's disposal.

Again, there is little backing (certainly none in Angels of Death) for the Dark Angels having a vault of Esoteric technology ‘at their disposal’ compared to any other Space Marine chapter. How much older are the Dark Angels than the Emperor’s Children, Iron Warriors, White Scars and Space Wolves (the next 4, excluding the unknown Chapter 2)? Were they really the most favoured of the 20 original legions before the Heresy broke out, that they were given more toys than all the others?


> Chaplain effects: Seeing as it is a Chapter's Chaplains whom are responsible for overseeing the training of marines (or at least, so I've gathered from BL fiction.), it would make sense that the more active chaplaincy of the Dark Angels would be able to train their marines to specialise in a few areas, which could be represented by them giving a special rule (selected from a shortlist) to a squad they join, with an Interrogator Chaplain granting a bubble effect. Of course it would suffer from MSS (Magic Stick Syndrome), but it would be different until its folded into codex: space marines.

Whilst the Dark Angels do have more Chaplains than some other chapters (due to Interrogator Chaplains being in addition to each company’s chaplains) I don’t think this would affect how many Chaplains would appear in a normal size battle. They certainly wouldn’t go appear in groups of 3 as some other posters have suggested. In Codex: Angels of Death, the only difference between an Interrogator Chaplain and its equivalent in other chapters (Hero) was that Interrogator Chaplain’s were immune to Psychology (which all Deathwing level characters were). They didn’t even have to pay an additional points cost for this. Both Hero/Interrogator Chaplain were also succeeded by Master Chaplains, who had greater stats (Here the Dark Angels had to pay an additional 15 points more, half a marine). The greater role that Interrogator Chaplain’s play would be off the battlefield: interrogating captured prisoners. They could take a unique piece of wargear, the Blades of Reason, which could be used in combat but otherwise an Interrogator Chaplain’s skills didn’t grant any additional effects.
There seems to be a desire amongst some players to put Chaplain’s in the same role as Sanguinary Priests, harkening back again to the “Blood Angels can do this, why can’t we?” toys out of the pram mentality. Again back in Codex: Angels of Death, the Blood Angels could only take one Sanguinary Priest, Brother Corbulo, who had a unique item of wargear (The Red Grail) that gave nearby Blood Angels a boon. Just because Matt Ward has messed up the Blood Angels army and background from a noble artistic chapter with a slight mutation problem (nowhere near as widespread as it is now), doesn’t mean he and others need to do the same with the Dark Angels.



The above is just a few things that someone without a great deal of knowledge about the Dark Angels can come up with in 15 minutes. The above suggestions would allow the codex to play like the regular marine book minus some elements or up to a highly elite and specialised force, with a fair amount of scope in between.

This is the danger of, as you yourself put it, “someone without a great deal of knowledge of the Dark Angels” coming up with new rules when the justifications really aren’t there. A new book should be created because there is a unique enough faction deserving it. We shouldn’t make changes to a faction simply to justify a new book that they shouldn’t deserve. It’s already led to 5 Space Marine codices, plus Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines (which is often rumoured to be splitting into Chaos Renegades/Chaos Legions). It leads others to say “Why haven’t the Imperial Fists got their own book, they’re [i]so[/] different to how any other Space Marine chapter fights…” It then leads to others saying “Why don’t the Ork Klans or Eldar Craftworlds each have their own book, the Space Marines each get one…” It only makes an issue of oversaturation worse. Incorporating the Dark Angels into Codex: Space Marines (and balancing how much focus is given to each Chapter) would be a great start to rebalancing the game between MEQs and other factions.
It’s not going to happen though, which means there’s going to be new units added for the Dark Angels that have simply never existed before. We can only speculate on how bad and gimmicky they will be…


And another thumbs up for Col. Tartleton's Dark Angel summary

I’ll also raise a thumbs up to Col. Tartleton’s Summary. He did a good job with the fluff, which is why my two posts have concentrated more on the rules differences between the chapters.

BooTMGSG
03-09-2012, 13:16
Is it just me, but would the DA's be a good anti marine force. They have a lot of Plasma weapons and can drop Terms onto a location quickly. It would be incharacter considering their main enemy are the <redacted> and as such would like some AP2 weaponary.

I am concerned about the Fluff in the DA book. All that information out in public view, GW sould really let a interogator chaplain have a look over the book with a black marker pen just to be safe.

TheDungen
03-09-2012, 14:28
I'd rather DA be a codex chapter then suffer the Matt Ward treatment. why cant we get a Phil Kelly like all the cool kids? (And the cool kids are the xenos in this case)

Starchild
03-09-2012, 15:43
@TheDungen: If Mr. Kelly wrote our Codex then I would make my models dance the pavane all over the Rock! :skull:

TheDungen
03-09-2012, 17:44
and even with that added to the fluff it'd be better than some of the things ward have written. the exception of course being the wood elf armybook for warhammer, i just dont see how he could get that so right and then screw the daemon books up so much.

The upside is that if Ward overpowers the codex my Fallen will have plenty of unforgiven to foil.

viv714r
03-09-2012, 19:00
Kelly's rumoured to be on the Chaos job though. :cries:

TheDungen
03-09-2012, 22:25
Who else is on the wh 40k team? cant just be Phil and Mat?

librerian_samae
03-09-2012, 22:53
I'm hoping for Mat to be honest, I have all the dark angel background from previous books if the new fluff sucks, but Mat would make a seriously solid set of rules with funky crazy cool stuff on top, and that's exactly what we need after 3 and a bit editions of tame and toned down 'like codex marines but more points and more clunky'.

Here's to Samael leading his LION pattern jetbike veterans whilst sitting astride the nova cannon of an emperor class battle barge as they roar onto the battle field, enemy unable to see them due to there DARK aura fields cloaking them in prue GRIMDARK as Cypher personally and meekly cowers at his feet LION sword aloft in suplication. Whilst watchers in the DARK moodily wail on guitars.

Abaddonshand
03-09-2012, 23:21
In the end, I think some people saying this is wrong, or that would be wrong are forgetting that GW own the Dark Angels. They're well within their rights to do whatever they wish to increase the popularity/ sales of the army.

For instance, people objecting to the Dark Angels liking plasma, because it was only hinted at by tactical squads getting plasma cannon in 3rd ed, and saying that them being the oldest legion doesn't justify access to archaic tech; if GW say being the first legion justifies it, then it justifies it forever more amen until GW say otherwise.

MajorWesJanson
03-09-2012, 23:50
Who else is on the wh 40k team? cant just be Phil and Mat?

Robin Cruddace.

Xerkics
04-09-2012, 00:08
I heard watchers in the dark are grots with psychic powers :) Sort of like Night Goblins who had too much shrooms :)

SniperDan84
04-09-2012, 08:24
In the end, I think some people saying this is wrong, or that would be wrong are forgetting that GW own the Dark Angels. They're well within their rights to do whatever they wish to increase the popularity/ sales of the army...

I have to disagree. I don't think anyone here is saying that GW can't do what they want with Dark Angels. What people are generally saying is that, given the current background for Dark Angels (from GW's own sources) there isn't enough justification to separate them into a stand alone codex. In addition, the general consensus (of those who wish to move DA into Codex: Space Marine) seems to be that it makes sense to embrace their background by keeping the existing background, and representing the minor differences gameplay differences with addons to the Space Marine codex, rather than create a large number new/different units just to justify having a separate codex.

Just because they can, doesn't mean they should. I think everyone would be upset if the next version of Dark Angels didn't have access to Terminators (justified by some story of how a Fallen somehow hacked all of DA's terminator suits and rendered them unusable, or some equally poorly written story involving Sisters of Battle being murdered to fix something...:angel:). Ultimately, we are fans of the 40k universe, whether it's how it's represented through game-play, or whether it's through the background GW has created. GW can and will change the background as it sees fit. If it never added anything new, it's very possible they would become stale and lose out on their main goal, to make money. At the same time, if they changes things too drastically (see my bad example at the beginning of this paragraph), they will distance themselves from the very things that we the fans enjoy about the universe and will lose said fans as they simply go onto something else they enjoy. This can be a fine line and ultimately what I feel makes these conversations interesting is discussing where we think that line should be.

Lastly, I feel this is similar to people disagreeing with all the silly changes that George Lucas makes to the original Star Wars trilogy every time it's re-released. Yes he owns them. Yes he can change them however he wants to justify selling more copies of the same movies, but ultimately Han shot first. :p

RandomThoughts
04-09-2012, 08:56
Being the first legion, the Dark Angels have access to some of the most ancient wargear and weapons. Plasma technology (which is supposed to be rare) can be found en masse within their ranks.

Which makes no sense at all. Back then, everyone had awesome tech. Then it fell apart, over twenty thousend years of negligence.
The only reason the Dark Angels could credibly still have a hoard of tech stored away somewhere is if they hoard it and never take it out - which would be the same as not having it at all.


I would love to see a single (hard cover) "Adeptus Astartes" book. With a special chapter tactics section that doesn't depend on ICs, but rather the other way around: Salamander shouldn't contain Marneus Calgar, except if he takes up an allies slot. You know what I mean....

You and me, bro, you and me.


I'm betting on the word DARK. Watch out for DARK Missiles coming your way. Make sure not to go overboard with Mortis Dreads and leave all your DARK Fists.

As long as they don't get Dark Lances. I Mean, Bright Lance makes kind of sense, as a way to describe a Laser Weapon, but Dark Lance. That would be ridiculously dumb.

totgeboren
04-09-2012, 09:28
Dark Mortis Secrets.

I just can't wait for all the new goodies, like SECRET missiles, Dreads with DARK fists of course and Ravenwing riding Secret Mortis Land Speeders. It will be glorious.

Being a bit more serious, the Limited Edition Interrogator-Chaplain has got a special rule called Litanies of the Dark Angels. It allows him and any unit he joins to reroll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 against all units from a Chaos Space Marine army, both by shooting and in CC. Nice combo if you like lots of plasma. Bad combo if you face anything other than CSM.

I'm just saying their theme might be more towards fighting Chaos Space Marines. Like the DKs are anti-Daemon, the DA will be anti-CSM so to speak.

MajorWesJanson
04-09-2012, 11:54
DA will get the Blood Angels treatment of getting more new units and characters to make them more diverse from Codex: SM. Yes, currently fluff has them being relatively codex in both background and rules. They are not going to be merged into Codex: SM, no matter how easily it can be done. They are too well entrenched as a separate army.

viv714r
04-09-2012, 17:49
One of the reasons that the DA might have tons of rare tech lying ari=ound is that their successor chapter The Consecrators are dedicated to looking after said tech.

Death Company
04-09-2012, 18:09
They are not going to be merged into Codex: SM

Further emphasizing what Wes said.

No amount of xeno-angst is going to derail the planned release. We know - via pretty reliable sources - that they're coming out with a new codex sometime shortly after the starter-sets release. While I'm sure it's quite enjoyable to lament about just how unfair it is that another Imperial release is on the horizon (it must be, given how often it comes up) - or that it's unfair that your Legion doesn't have it's own shiny codex - Dark Angels are getting a new codex - regardless of what is said in this thread, or any other. I mean really.. nothing is going to come from this 'one book to rule them all' discussion; ever.

I just don't grasp why this always manages to take any thread regarding Dark Angels, completely off-topic, every time.

Israfael
04-09-2012, 18:17
Further emphasizing what Wes said.

No amount of xeno-angst is going to derail the planned release. We know - via pretty reliable sources - that they're coming out with a new codex sometime shortly after the starter-sets release. While I'm sure it's quite enjoyable to lament about just how unfair it is that another Imperial release is on the horizon (it must be, given how often it comes up) - or that it's unfair that your Legion doesn't have it's own shiny codex - Dark Angels are getting a new codex - regardless of what is said in this thread, or any other. I mean really.. nothing is going to come from this 'one book to rule them all' discussion; ever.

I just don't grasp why this always manages to take any thread regarding Dark Angels, completely off-topic, every time.

The mods should sticky this, or something similar, on the main page of General. :D

Spiney Norman
04-09-2012, 18:28
Robin Cruddace.

Sounds bleak doesn't it...

I think I would rather have Ward write the codes than Cruddace, sure he murders the fluff with a hacksaw but at least the army list comes out at least playable. I've still not forgiven Cruddace for screwing up tomb kings and sisters of battle in the same year, and if Jervis gets the job of writing DA again I might just sell all the DV models I just bought.

Lord-Caerolion
05-09-2012, 02:20
Further emphasizing what Wes said.

No amount of xeno-angst is going to derail the planned release. We know - via pretty reliable sources - that they're coming out with a new codex sometime shortly after the starter-sets release. While I'm sure it's quite enjoyable to lament about just how unfair it is that another Imperial release is on the horizon (it must be, given how often it comes up) - or that it's unfair that your Legion doesn't have it's own shiny codex - Dark Angels are getting a new codex - regardless of what is said in this thread, or any other. I mean really.. nothing is going to come from this 'one book to rule them all' discussion; ever.

I just don't grasp why this always manages to take any thread regarding Dark Angels, completely off-topic, every time.

Yeah, I know nothing will ever come of it, I'm just scared as to what GW will decide to do. I love the Dark Angels too much to see them ruined.

TheDungen
05-09-2012, 08:45
Cruddace may not be a great rules writter but he at least dont scarp all the old fluff and start from the ground every time, Ward does that.

We're just saying that we'd prefer being a codex chapter to getting the same treatment as chaos daemons. and a lot of far to literal units. I'm still hoping Ward has heard our critique of the GK and decided not to write the DA leaders as gods on the battlefield.

Chivs
05-09-2012, 11:38
Sounds bleak doesn't it...

I think I would rather have Ward write the codes than Cruddace, sure he murders the fluff with a hacksaw but at least the army list comes out at least playable. I've still not forgiven Cruddace for screwing up tomb kings and sisters of battle in the same year, and if Jervis gets the job of writing DA again I might just sell all the DV models I just bought.

No need to sell the models. Just use Codex: Space Marines with the following restrictions: no sternguard, no vanguard, no scout bikes and (if you're feeling really strict) no multimelta/heavy flamer landspeeders. If you haven't got them already, get Codex: Angels of Death and Storm of Vengeance.

True Dark Angels Players: Using Codex: Space Marines since March 2007.

-Loki-
05-09-2012, 12:37
Cruddace may not be a great rules writter but he at least dont scarp all the old fluff and start from the ground every time, Ward does that.

That doesn't make his fluff good. The fluff in the Tyranid and Guard codices is terrible. And his lists? The only reason he got Guard 'right' was because he threw so many units into the book, some **** had to stick to the wall. There's a reason that even with more options than any other book, you only see people running two standard lists from the book. With all the same units. Look at the lists he's done with far fewer options.

40k codex writers basically boil down to:

Ward - terrible fluff, good list
Kelly - great fluff, decent list, some overpowered stuff
Cruddace - terrible fluff, terrible list with maybe one or two things that work

viv714r
05-09-2012, 14:54
No need to sell the models. Just use Codex: Space Marines with the following restrictions: no sternguard, no vanguard, no scout bikes and (if you're feeling really strict) no multimelta/heavy flamer landspeeders. If you haven't got them already, get Codex: Angels of Death and Storm of Vengeance.

True Dark Angels Players: Using Codex: Space Marines since March 2007.
That's not being a true Dark Angels player... that's playing green vanilla marines. I don't have much against that, just Dark Angels players use their Codex not the Ultramarines one.

Chivs
06-09-2012, 12:48
That's not being a true Dark Angels player... that's playing green vanilla marines. I don't have much against that, just Dark Angels players use their Codex not the Ultramarines one.

Hey, I take offence to that one. They're green, black and bone Vanilla Marines! :-P

The statement was tongue in cheek. You've got to respect the stubbornness of some players who stick with a clearly inferior book for 5 years. But for me, there's also the irony that (in my opinion) Codex: Space Marines provides a better fit for a Dark Angels army than Codex: Dark Angels does. Certainly for my own Dark Angels.

Can someone justify the following to me?

Why are Dark Angels the only chapter who equips their Terminator Squadrons with a mix of ranged and specialist assault weaponry? Whilst I can see the benefit of an all ranged or dedicated assault squadron at times, I can also see plenty of times when you might want a little bit of both (raiding a Space Hulk for instance?)

Why can the Dark Angels not field squadrons of 'Ravenwing Pattern' landspeeders when all other Codex chapters can? (Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon - I call it Ravenwing Pattern because that's what it was called when first released when it was Dark Angels only.)
My issue here is not that other chapters can field them, but that for Dark Angels an assault cannon is a one per squad upgrade but for everyone else its pretty much standard equipment?

(The real justification is that back in 4th edition the assault Cannon was one of the most powerful guns in the game due to Rending adding an extra d6 to armour penetration on a 6 rather than d3 ; I think it became better than a lascannon in many cases for tank busting. It therefore received both a hefty price increase and more restrictions in its use rather than fixing the actual issue (which they did eventually do in 5th ed).)

I'll never use Sternguard or Vanguard, but I can continue to use my metal 2nd edition landspeeders as squadrons in a different book. And I'll stick to my principle of Dark Angels not having enough differences to justify their stand alone Codex.

The statement is tongue in cheek. When Ward or Cruddace twist the Dark Angels beyond all recognition by adding gimmicky rules and units it'll probably be less so.

Still a Dark Angel, but a Dark Angel with different principles to others.

*As an aside I don't think there's a problem with Blood Angels players, who remember a time when the black rage struck the night before battle and not in the middle of it, feeling that Codex: Space Marines better represents their old armies than the new book. Why exactly are Assault Squads troops choices?

SniffleSocks
06-09-2012, 13:03
"Blood Angels like combat and assault troops do combat... so... lets make them a troop selection for Blood Angels!"

I haven't played much 40k this year so I have no grounds for judging the BA lists going around so far. I will return to 40k at some point, I'm actually quite excited to see what all the whining is about.

Starchild
06-09-2012, 14:34
@Chivs: Jervis Johnson's mission with the Dark Angels codex was to address the spam issues of the Pete Haines 4th edition Space Marine codex.

Basically this revolved around assault cannon spam. To eliminate this, Jervis did three things:

- one heavy weapon max per Terminator squad;

- one Land Speeder Tornado max per squadron;

- points value increase on the assault cannon


So instead of moving the army forward in any meaningful way (other than Ravenwing teleport homers and Deathwing Assault), Jervis simply addressed what he saw as the current balance issues. (He also axed the "obscure rules bonuses" such as purity seals and signums.)

Assault cannons were insanely good at the time because rending was triggered on to-hit rolls, not to-wound rolls. IIRC they were also much better at damaging vehicles. It was the no-brainer weapon of choice and had about the same reputation as the 3rd edition Eldar star cannon.

When 5th edition changed rending (in addition to Alessio's silly "only troops can claim objectives" rule, suddenly Dark Angels went from being a multiple scoring unit menace to the ultimate underdogs. The army list imposed too many restrictions on assault cannons, and for too high a points cost on a nerfed weapon.

Another thing that really annoyed me was the Dark Angels psychic powers list. Instead of progressing with a nice new list of 6 to 10 powers (like Pete Haines' codex had), Jervis regressed back to 3rd edition madness with a paltry 3 powers, one usable only by Ezekiel. :wtf:

At this point even a Robin Cruddace codex would be an upgrade. :(

Chivs
06-09-2012, 14:44
@Chivs: Jervis Johnson's mission with the Dark Angels codex was to address the spam issues of the Pete Haines 4th edition Space Marine codex.

Basically this revolved around assault cannon spam. To eliminate this, Jervis did three things:

- one heavy weapon max per Terminator squad;

- one Land Speeder Tornado max per squadron;

- points value increase on the assault cannon


So instead of moving the army forward in any meaningful way (other than Ravenwing teleport homers and Deathwing Assault), Jervis simply addressed what he saw as the current balance issues. (He also axed the "obscure rules bonuses" such as purity seals and signums.)

Assault cannons were insanely good at the time because rending was triggered on to-hit rolls, not to-wound rolls. IIRC they were also much better at damaging vehicles. It was the no-brainer weapon of choice and had about the same reputation as the 3rd edition Eldar star cannon.

When 5th edition changed rending (in addition to Alessio's silly "only troops can claim objectives" rule, suddenly Dark Angels went from being a multiple scoring unit menace to the ultimate underdogs. The army list imposed too many restrictions on assault cannons, and for too high a points cost on a nerfed weapon.

Another thing that really annoyed me was the Dark Angels psychic powers list. Instead of progressing with a nice new list of 6 to 10 powers (like Pete Haines' codex had), Jervis regressed back to 3rd edition madness with a paltry 3 powers, one usable only by Ezekiel. :wtf:

At this point even a Robin Cruddace codex would be an upgrade. :(

Very good summary Starchild, but this is the bit I know (It's a more filled out version of the bit I had in Brackets starting The Real Justification...). I'll confess to fielding a lot of Assault Cannons myself in this era, and the 5th Edition change to Rending was a required and justified fix. Jervis' approach simply bypassed the issue.

I'm after the In-game justification for why everyone else can do it, but Dark Angels can't. I see it as a much harder, if not impossible, question to answer.

KitKat
06-09-2012, 14:59
Yeah, I know nothing will ever come of it, I'm just scared as to what GW will decide to do. I love the Dark Angels too much to see them ruined.

4th Edition already ruined our identity. I can't see how it could conceivably be made worse.

viv714r
06-09-2012, 17:16
@Chivs, sorry but it can be hard to convey tone of voice in a forum sometimes.:p

Chivs
06-09-2012, 18:36
Nothing to apologise for. :-)

GodlessM
06-09-2012, 18:45
Or how about people just field based on good old fashioned fluff and generally what looks cool? :eyebrows:

Because some people like to win games. Don't ever assume your way of playing the game is the only correct way.

Lord-Caerolion
07-09-2012, 04:20
4th Edition already ruined our identity. I can't see how it could conceivably be made worse.

Have you seen the fluff in the Grey Knight book? Plus, we've got a choice of numerous spam-words they can make use of, Secret, Dark, Lion and Angel. Blood Angels just had the one they made use of, so imagine the joy they'll have when they realise they now have 4 to play around with! Lion cavalry wielding Dark Claws, while a Dreadnought smacks people with his Angel Fists (no different rules, just a new name for the sake of it, in case you forgot what army you were playing), as a Storm Raven drops down using its Skies of Secrets rule and fires a Lion-strike Missile. Don't forget the obligatory "appears out of nowhere and vanishes after the battle" unit that Ward is seemingly compelled to add into every single Marine codex he does, so we'll probably get Cypher, who's now actually a Loyalist, it's just the Dark Angels don't know it. Hell, he's probably actually the Lion, because that would just be epicly awesome!!1! They also kill an Avatar in one battle with the Blades of Reason, because it found out about the Fallen.