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tw1386
30-08-2012, 23:30
So I recently played a Wood elf player, lets just call him Bob. He was using the lore of life, and always forgetting to use the Lore Attribute. So I would always reminded him to use it on his Treeman (as that is the only thing that he could heal back) and every turn he forgot to do it, and I subsequently would remind him. At the end of the game, he started grumbling at me about telling him "how to play" . As my subject states, is it considered rude or bad mannered to remind players of things they forgot, whether it helps them or not?

Granted I have had this situation happen both ways where I didn't remind my opponent to dispell Curse of Years (Remains in Play that gets worse at the end of every magic phase) and he got angry even though there was a marker. I will say I was being a little cheeky not reminding him because it was in a tournament, and well... no holds barred for me in that situation.

IcedCrow
30-08-2012, 23:31
I'd do it once. After that, all bets are off. Unless I know the guy and we're buddies. And I know he wants to be reminded.

theunwantedbeing
30-08-2012, 23:36
Not bad manners at all.
Provided you remind them at an appropriate time of course.

Tuttivillus
30-08-2012, 23:46
I'd do it once. After that, all bets are off. Unless I know the guy and we're buddies. And I know he wants to be reminded.

This. Only person with a lack of manners was Your opponent IMO. He behaved like a dog who bites a feeding hand. ;) I also have an op. who needs to be reminded of the things like moving a unit or so, and sometimes it's me that need to be reminded. It's just fair play.

tmarichards
31-08-2012, 00:31
I usually remind people once, then afterwards they're on their own.

Next step is whether you let them do so
something retrospectively, like allocating a Cauldron buff after moving units.

smileyface
31-08-2012, 00:45
So I recently played a Wood elf player, lets just call him Bob. He was using the lore of life, and always forgetting to use the Lore Attribute. So I would always reminded him to use it on his Treeman (as that is the only thing that he could heal back) and every turn he forgot to do it, and I subsequently would remind him. At the end of the game, he started grumbling at me about telling him "how to play" . As my subject states, is it considered rude or bad mannered to remind players of things they forgot, whether it helps them or not?

In friendly play I'd call that good manners. You know, if you're doing it in a polite way. If someone is forgetting something that gives you an advantage then you should point it out because hey, those are the rules. And if they're forgetting something that gives them an advantage then you pointing it out is you being friendly and helpful.

But hey, if he wants to grumble about it, just stop reminding him.

HurrDurr
31-08-2012, 00:47
The way I see it there are two ways to look at this sort of thing.

A - You consider remembering to do everything as "part of the skill of the game", to an extent I agree with this, no one in the history of Warhammer can deny that they have forgotten things, big or small. But like most things that attempt to be argued to an ultimatum here, it just comes down to who the 2 players are.

(I've played entire games with no wizard and turn 6 realized I had ruby ring, forgot to move my deathstar unit one turn in a game and lost for it, etc. Most of my games are very friendly and very competitive in that we are trying as hard as possible to win through play with random lists we draw up 10 minutes before battle)

B - You think a unit forgetting to move, spells not being cast, etc. is an unfair advantage or just "isn't how that's supposed to happen." So both players remind each other of all of those things.


I think there should be some distinction between "telling someone how to play" and reminding players of things like "this unit has x equipment", this hasn't come up but if this thread has any life it will and it will be argued to death so I'm killing it right now. Irrc it's within the rules to disclose basic equipment information for core/etc. like armor/weapon and banner/msc/ch.

Is what you did rude? No, seems silly for you to ask O_O. If he didn't want the help obviously take the hint though, but the story doesn't really say that.

Also nothing cheeky about not reminding people of things in a tournament, that's to be expected if you ask me, and is proper as is.

@tmar, if it's not a strictly competitive game, I allow any moves that don't influence another action already taken, as it doesn't cheat the same way something like deciding you didn't want to charge after it failed would. Like someone forgetting to shoot a cannon before starting close combat, or not moving a unit of waywatchers that was hiding and not realizing until shooting phase, but being careful that they weren't then moved through a space that a unit was magically moved from(because that would have been an impossible during the movement phase), or any other way that backtracking changes the outcome.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 00:51
You weren't giving him tactical advice, you were reminding him of a passive effect that was to his benefit. You get a virtual high five from me.

DaemonReign
31-08-2012, 01:06
The guy the OP is talking about sounds like one of those people (age would be interesting to know, unless that's a rude angle I don't know..) that are just impossible to please.
So you remind him to make use of his own Lore Attribute.. ending up with him getting pissy because you're giving him pointers.
Let's say you hadn't.. Well then I'd venture this is the archetype of player that would start putting the entire game-result into question.. 'Well technically YOU cheated 'cause I would have done this&that with my Lore Attribute then&there..'
So it's not really about manners.. It's just the simple case that while you can always win a game there's a certain domain of 'social interactions' that just can't be won. ;)

starlight
31-08-2012, 01:11
If it's a buddy, it's a different sort of game that gets played, and that adapts game-by-game.

If it's a learning game, I'll remind as needed for an enjoyable game.

If it's a pick-up game with a relatively unknown gamer, I'll remind them once.

If it's a tournament, all bets are off.

Mirbeau
31-08-2012, 01:17
So I recently played a Wood elf player, lets just call him Bob. He was using the lore of life, and always forgetting to use the Lore Attribute. So I would always reminded him to use it on his Treeman (as that is the only thing that he could heal back) and every turn he forgot to do it, and I subsequently would remind him. At the end of the game, he started grumbling at me about telling him "how to play" . As my subject states, is it considered rude or bad mannered to remind players of things they forgot, whether it helps them or not?

Granted I have had this situation happen both ways where I didn't remind my opponent to dispell Curse of Years (Remains in Play that gets worse at the end of every magic phase) and he got angry even though there was a marker. I will say I was being a little cheeky not reminding him because it was in a tournament, and well... no holds barred for me in that situation.

Who won the game? If he lost, he may have just been looking for something to grumble about!

Depending on your tone, I'd say it's largely a polite thing to do, I'm continually forgetting to make people take fear tests so am glad of any reminders!

Rathkarn
31-08-2012, 01:31
I can't see anything but good sportsmanship. I think your mate was annoyed at himself for not remembering under his own steam.

It's completely up to you if you offer this chap the same help in future games. Many wouldn't after that.

Game over man. Game over.

Grey Seer Kwokka
31-08-2012, 04:35
I think there's a very thin line here.

A single reminder or two is OK without question. However, constant reminder might be seen as invasive if that player wants to make their own driven decisions.

Is this rude or arrogant? Possibly. However, it's always prudent to respect someone's personal wishes, even if they are driven by personal pride. Your opponent is entitled to his own personal space.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 05:16
I think there's a very thin line here.

A single reminder or two is OK without question. However, constant reminder might be seen as invasive if that player wants to make their own driven decisions.

Is this rude or arrogant? Possibly. However, it's always prudent to respect someone's personal wishes, even if they are driven by personal pride. Your opponent is entitled to his own personal space.

That's ridiculous. It would be one thing if, for example, he didn't want to issue a challenge and you kept reminding him. Why on earth would he not want to make up a free wound on his dying treeman?

EDIT: Especially because people like that are the ones who, after losing a game, say something stupid like: "Man, I totally would have had it if I had just remembered to give wounds back to my treeman!"

DrMooreFlava
31-08-2012, 05:48
+1 to Arnold picture guy.

DragonArmy
31-08-2012, 06:05
It sounds like your opponent lost, even though you were helping him, and that was discouraging for him. I support him in giving you that feedback. While I feel your opponent is being too sensitive, he is not going to read this post. So instead my honest feedback to you is not to be bothered by his attitude but also to listen to it. I'm not going to say,"oh, your manners were fine," because it may dismiss any truth in his grumblings.

I bet there was some truth in what he was saying but that it caught you off guard and made the experience a little less fun. But yes, your opponent could be a more gracious loser and not be so sensitive.

I would usually steer clear from the idea that there are correct social customs to playing this game. many players already struggle with normal social behavior and players play this game for so many different reasons. It's hard to create "standards" to hold others too. Rather if it's not worth playing him, don't next time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Grey Seer Kwokka
31-08-2012, 06:15
That's ridiculous. It would be one thing if, for example, he didn't want to issue a challenge and you kept reminding him. Why on earth would he not want to make up a free wound on his dying treeman?

EDIT: Especially because people like that are the ones who, after losing a game, say something stupid like: "Man, I totally would have had it if I had just remembered to give wounds back to my treeman!"

Your latter comment is assumptive; it bears no relevance as it cannot be corroborated in this instance.

On your original rebuttal though, why is it ridiculous? Do you simply see any alternative view on the matter as such because you automatically think following through with the advice all the time is "right"? Granted, the opponent should have been clear sooner if he had issue with being informed of his mistakes, but it is equally arrogant to assume that the player's objective assistance was welcome as it is to question the opponent being entitled to berate him after the game (clearly, it bothered the player enough to ask for guidance here).

It's borderline back-seat-driving; not everyone likes it and you just have to deal with that. Are you above showing humility?

And to drive this point further, I had my first two games of Warhammer just last weekend. Both of my opponents helped me consistently, but I asked for that.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 06:34
Your latter comment is assumptive; it bears no relevance as it cannot be corroborated in this instance.
Oh stop. Obviously it can't be corroborated, because it didn't happen, however that doesn't mean it isn't relevant. I was drawing upon years of experience playing against people with personality types similar to the person described by the OP and supposing that, if he followed the normal trend established by my observations, he would blame his loss on something trivial. Deciding on what action to take based on experiences from previous decisions is how we make choices every day. Likewise, deciding how to act in a given scenario (such as whether or not to offer advice) is based entirely on our past experiences in similar situations. As the OP had never played this particular opponent before, the best he could do is decide how to act based on run-ins with people "like" the player.



On your original rebuttal though, why is it ridiculous? Do you simply see any alternative view on the matter as such because you automatically think following through with the advice all the time is "right"? Granted, the opponent should have been clear sooner if he had issue with being informed of his mistakes, but it is equally arrogant to assume that the player's objective assistance was welcome as it is to question the opponent being entitled to berate him after the game (clearly, it bothered the player enough to ask for guidance here).
I explained myself in a previous post. There is a significant difference between offering tactical advice and reminding someone of a passive effect that they clearly forgot.



It's borderline back-seat-driving; not everyone likes it and you just have to deal with that. Are you above showing humility? And to drive this point further, I had my first two games of Warhammer just last weekend. Both of my opponents helped me consistently, but I asked for that.
Again, asking for advice on rule interpretations and tactical decisions is not the same thing as kindly reminding someone about a rule in their favor. It would be like if I hit your general with a cannonball and successfully wounded him, at which point you forgot to take the 4+ ward save to which you were entitled. If I reminded you of the save I wouldn't be trying to "back seat drive" your game, I would be pointing out a benefit to which you were entitled.

If you're looking for a more self-serving motive, there's no fun in winning a game because your opponent forgot a rule that would have helped him.

Grey Seer Kwokka
31-08-2012, 06:46
Oh stop. Obviously it can't be corroborated, because it didn't happen, however that doesn't mean it isn't relevant. I was drawing upon years of experience playing against people with personality types similar to the person described by the OP and supposing that, if he followed the normal trend established by my observations, he would blame his loss on something trivial. Deciding on what action to take based on experiences from previous decisions is how we make choices every day. Likewise, deciding how to act in a given scenario (such as whether or not to offer advice) is based entirely on our past experiences in similar situations. As the OP had never played this particular opponent before, the best he could do is decide how to act based on run-ins with people "like" the player.

Oh good, so you agree with me then? Or are you seriously suggesting applying a social stigma to someone is a definitive and justifiable means of excusing someone's actions?

Yeah, what you're saying is likely. However, my point still stands.



I explained myself in a previous post. There is a significant difference between offering tactical advice and reminding someone of a passive effect that they clearly forgot.


Again, asking for advice on rule interpretations and tactical decisions is not the same thing as kindly reminding someone about a rule in their favor. It would be like if I hit your general with a cannonball and successfully wounded him, at which point you forgot to take the 4+ ward save to which you were entitled. If I reminded you of the save I wouldn't be trying to "back seat drive" your game, I would be pointing out a benefit to which you were entitled.

If you're looking for a more self-serving motive, there's no fun in winning a game because your opponent forgot a rule that would have helped him.

Except that the individual scenarios are not coming into contention themselves. It's not about the act itself, it's about the repetition. Everyone forgets sometimes, but does that give you the right to do it as you wish every time? This is why I stated no issue with following through with the advice once or twice.

Scammel
31-08-2012, 07:03
I think there's a very thin line here.

A single reminder or two is OK without question. However, constant reminder might be seen as invasive if that player wants to make their own driven decisions.

Is this rude or arrogant? Possibly. However, it's always prudent to respect someone's personal wishes, even if they are driven by personal pride. Your opponent is entitled to his own personal space.

I broadly agree with this, depending on the circumstances. If it was a completely friendly game and you know each other well, it's fine and he probably should be grateful. If you're not totally familiar with each other, getting a reminder from your opponent every turn can smack a bit of being told what to do and being made to look a bit silly, even if that's light-years away from the original intent. After a point, you kinda just want to make your own mistakes rather than have a safety-net. Furthermore, we don't have the other side of the story - what if your opponent did actually remember after the first occasion, but you were a bit too quick to jump in and 'help out' again?

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 07:19
Oh good, so you agree with me then? Or are you seriously suggesting applying a social stigma to someone is a definitive and justifiable means of excusing someone's actions?

Yeah, what you're saying is likely. However, my point still stands.
I'm seriously suggesting that we apply social stigma when making decisions whether we want to or not. For example you're clearly an intelligent person, and I just realized that I've been double-checking my spelling and grammar for mistakes in response. I've been subconsciously altering my behavior because I've categorized you as intelligent.

Based on the OP's description of his opponent, and fair or not, I've categorized him into the group of "people I would regret playing against". He's been added to the group because he's exhibited one or two behaviors typical of those already in the group, such as complaining about help. Since I can't see the future I have to base my actions on how I predict him to behave, which I can either do blindly or by making an educated guess based on how others in his "group" have acted in the past.

I'm not sure what's wrong with that?



Except that the individual scenarios are not coming into contention themselves. It's not about the act itself, it's about the repetition. Everyone forgets sometimes, but does that give you the right to do it as you wish every time? This is why I stated no issue with following through with the advice once or twice.
Which I'd agree with if the opponent had said something about it during the game. In this case the "right" thing to do is point out the rule, which the OP dutifully did each time he had to. If his opponent had a real problem with it he should have said something, as adults do when something is irritating them. Instead, he waited until after the game was over to vent his frustrations.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, like the OP, I would assume that friendly reminders about forgotten army benefits would be welcome regardless of their frequency.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 07:21
what if your opponent did actually remember after the first occasion, but you were a bit too quick to jump in and 'help out' again?

An excellent point. My arguments have been made on the assumption that the OP waited for something obvious, such as his opponent moving on to another spell or the next phase entirely, as a cue to speak up.

samael
31-08-2012, 07:39
Based on the story I'd say that the OP has "the most sporting player" award firmly in his grasp, no bad manners just good sportsmanship.

An award I would, against this specific opponent, gladly throw away in favour of the "Ayn Rand awards 2012" in the "I got mine you get your own faeces together " category.

Scammel
31-08-2012, 07:53
Based on the OP's description of his opponent

A dangerous thing to do, don't you think? Though of course he's not lying, the OP might not have a grasp of his opponent's mindset.


If his opponent had a real problem with it he should have said something, as adults do when something is irritating them.

Kinda depends on which side of the pond the game is played. :p In all seriousness, I've found it's absolutely the case that people (including me) won't speak up because they don't want to sour the game further. Best to try and get it over and done with in the best possible spirit and then stay away from that person in the future.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 08:04
Kinda depends on which side of the pond the game is played. :p

An interesting observation, Scammel. Here in the States if something irritates you, it is best to speak up and work through the problem like gentlemen. By contrast in the UK (assuming you're in the UK), the gentlemanly thing to do is to tolerate the thing that irritates you, as it makes you the better man.

I love these forums.

tw1386
31-08-2012, 08:19
Oh wow... I was definitely not expecting such a lively debate on the subject!

Anyways for clarification, it was at a large tournament, I never met the guy before, and I was beating him pretty handily. Also, if it matter he was an older gentleman and to be honest I don't think he was grumbling so much about me reminding him about something he forgot, which he did because I'd remind him at the end of the magic phase, but because when you pay 50-60 dollars to attend an event like that only to lose badly is tough to keep a smile on.

Scammel
31-08-2012, 08:28
An interesting observation, Scammel. Here in the States if something irritates you, it is best to speak up and work through the problem like gentlemen. By contrast in the UK (assuming you're in the UK), the gentlemanly thing to do is to tolerate the thing that irritates you, as it makes you the better man.


Exactly what I was getting at.


Anyways for clarification, it was at a large tournament, I never met the guy before, and I was beating him pretty handily. Also, if it matter he was an older gentleman and to be honest I don't think he was grumbling so much about me reminding him about something he forgot, which he did because I'd remind him at the end of the magic phase, but because when you pay 50-60 dollars to attend an event like that only to lose badly is tough to keep a smile on.

That extra bit of info is enlightening. I don't think you were being rude per se, but if someone's already not the cheeriest chappy, what you were doing (trying to be helpful) could be misconstrued as being a whipper-snapping little know-it-all.

samael
31-08-2012, 08:32
A dangerous thing to do, don't you think? Though of course he's not lying, the OP might not have a grasp of his opponent's mindset.


Might be, but it's what we have to work with here, and basically with every personal story/experience on the internet and in RL. Our opinion is asked and I can only give it based on the story of the OP, If we're not allowed to do that whitout hearing the story of the other party all this would be an excercise in futility. (while not saying that it isn't anyway :) )

Jezbot
31-08-2012, 08:32
The way I see it this game is full of all kinds of people. I've never met one personally, but I have no problem believing there are players out there who would be bothered by being reminded about small bonuses they'd forgotten about, I've certainly run into stranger behaviour.

It isn't wrong to remind someone of this, as I think the overwhelming majority of players would like to be reminded of a small bonus like that. But I think it is wrong to assume that reminding someone is always right, and that you should do so regardless. Instead you should probably remind someone once, and pick up on any social cue as to whether they appreciated it or not.

That does leave things open for someone who give no social cue that they're unhappy about it and just moans at the end, but there's really nothing that can be done about people like that.


But all that said, the guy was probably just moaning because he lost. That's more common than anything, and even friendly players succumb to it every once in a while.

Senor
31-08-2012, 10:33
Unknown or new player & not at a tournament - I always start asking the question upfront, if he appreciates a single "don't forget this or that" during the game. Even when I'm losing that game, I have the habbit to still remind them, if they told me, that they would appreciate that :-(
Club scene - I know what they like and don't like at this moment. You have to respect their playing character. The same with some sportsmen: hard on the field against you, a good drinking buddy in the canteen :-)
Tournaments are tournaments, no reminders are given during the game. After game thoughts, I will mention that I was lucky that he forgot: "this, that and such", to help the person for his next game. ;-) Sometimes, you will hear those remarks back on your forgotten things :-O

Toshiro
31-08-2012, 10:40
You weren't giving him tactical advice, you were reminding him of a passive effect that was to his benefit. You get a virtual high five from me.

Dan hit the nail perfectly on how I feel about this. :)

hawo0313
31-08-2012, 15:20
did he complain about it during the game? if no then dont worry but if he showed annoyance at the suggestion and you continued then yes mostly. In the same situation i would have done the same thing... until i started mtg

my first draft (and game with people outside our group)

my opponent has serra angel and is beating me every turn then i drew stingerfling and saw it had reach

me: ok i tap 5 for stingerfling
opponent: that all?
me: hmmm yeeeee-(looks at hand and available land)-eeeep. (notices singerflings other effect). oh and ill use stinger-
opponent: too late
me: huh? why it says when it enters the feild i can-
opponent: does it say "you may"
me: yes
opponent: then "you may" have used it when you played it. sorry but were playing for cards so tough
me::):eek::(:cries:

Dark Aly
31-08-2012, 16:50
I'd be very happy if people were around to remind to do things, move that unit, shoot that cannon, lore attributes, take the dog out, go to work etc. I'm always forgetting things and most people I play remind me as I remind them if I somehow manage to remember.

BigbyWolf
31-08-2012, 17:11
I'm competitive, so with an experienced player I tend not to remind my opponent on something if it appears he has simply forgotten it for one turn, if he forgets it again I'll drop the occaisional hint, if he forgets it for the whole game I'll point it out at the end.

I'll only bring it up in a game if it seems to me that he actually doesn't know the relevant rule, or is a relative newbee. I don't mind winning through forgetfulness, but I'd rather not win through ignorance.

Urgat
31-08-2012, 18:22
Well, I certainly don't mind when people remind me of something I forgot (tI tend to forget a whole lot of things, sometimes, I forget vital things like charges I'd painfully set up on my previous turn...). That player was a tad weird, no?

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 18:26
That player was a tad weird, no?

Je suis d'accord. :D

Virmathious
01-09-2012, 10:45
I am always having to be reminded of certan things, if the person im playing against wants to remind me thats great, we stand a chance of having a great game. if they choose not to then no hard feelings, i should remember and thats my issue.

The Low King
01-09-2012, 11:28
I agee that the OP was being a good sport, reminding his opponant of the rules.

However, how did he remind him? because saying 'remember the Lore of life attribute' is a bit different to saying 'remember to use the lore of life atribute on your treeman'. A minor difference but something that could make the player a little upset.

wanderingblade
01-09-2012, 11:32
While I'd be curious to see the OP's clarifications on the exact nature and timing of his interjections, generally I am on the side of this being considered very good manners and sportsmanship. And, frankly, while I can sorta see how his opponent might have decided not to say anything during the game - barely - I consider it a rather negative mark to continue on about it after the game when it was almost certainly clearly an attempt to help. A simple "Excuse me, but could you not remind me about actions I forgot to take in future, thankyou" would suffice.

BirchbarktheAncient
03-09-2012, 16:15
I have little patience for people who can't remember the rules of their own book and then get pissed at you when you won't let them go back and administer the affects of it. This all goes back to gamers being traditionally anti-social people who haven't learned how to control their nerd-rage. People who've actually HAD girlfriends tend to be much more even tempered, lol.

Mullitron
03-09-2012, 16:35
No you weren't rude, perhaps if you had spoken to your opponent in a sarcastic patronising manner to highlight his lack of knowledge of the game constantly reminding them how stupid they were because they had a poor grasp of the games rules. That would of been rude but I don't get the impression you did that at all. Some people may find your advice\comments insulting, but that's probably more about them than you, you probably wont have the same problem when playing with friends. In the end we are all different, what you did wasn't rude but if you think you may be annoying your opponent probably best to say nothing, even if that means they do it wrong.

Engekomkommer
04-09-2012, 08:14
I'd do it once. After that, all bets are off. Unless I know the guy and we're buddies. And I know he wants to be reminded.

Pretty much agree... except if I know the guy and we're best buddies, then I NEVER remind them, and hope they make lots of mistakes. ;)

arthurfallz
04-09-2012, 17:51
Sounds like an age gap problem. The older player disliked being run through the paces by a younger player.

smileyface
04-09-2012, 20:58
me: ok i tap 5 for stingerfling
opponent: that all?
me: hmmm yeeeee-(looks at hand and available land)-eeeep. (notices singerflings other effect). oh and ill use stinger-
opponent: too late
me: huh? why it says when it enters the feild i can-
:eek:
So... "remind" you in order to cut you off from using something? That's... well, isn't it actually cheating? They said "is that all" and you didn't say yes.

Tokamak
04-09-2012, 21:02
Rejecting help like that is what I call rude. You want to win on your opponent's tactical insight, not on how methodical he is.

The bearded one
04-09-2012, 22:17
You want to win on your opponent's tactical insight, not on how methodical he is.

reminding them of that fact might alleviate the situation. You want to fight your opponent, and not gain an undeserved advantage because he forgot something.

Malorian
04-09-2012, 22:39
For me it depends on how competitive the setting is and the experience level of the opponent.

In any case I would only remind them once. Reminding them more can help them, but in the end it's up to them to know the rules.

Lord Dan
04-09-2012, 23:07
:eek:
So... "remind" you in order to cut you off from using something? That's... well, isn't it actually cheating? They said "is that all" and you didn't say yes.

I agree. A similar thing happens in Warhammer when your opponent urges you out of a certain phase:

"Let's see, I'm going to shoot with my handgunners at your knights. 3 wounds."
"Okay, 2 saved. Are you finished?"
"Hmm...let's see..."
"Are you finished?"
"...uh, sure. Yeah, combat. Let's start wi- Oh! I forgot my huntsmen! Do you mind if-"
"Sorry, too late. We're in the combat phase now."

:rolleyes:

popisdead
11-09-2012, 20:59
If he doesn't like you doing it, then just stop. You could always say "if you mind me reminding you I can stop".

Urgat
11-09-2012, 22:17
I agree. A similar thing happens in Warhammer when your opponent urges you out of a certain phase:

"Let's see, I'm going to shoot with my handgunners at your knights. 3 wounds."
"Okay, 2 saved. Are you finished?"
"Hmm...let's see..."
"Are you finished?"
"...uh, sure. Yeah, combat. Let's start wi- Oh! I forgot my huntsmen! Do you mind if-"
"Sorry, too late. We're in the combat phase now."

:rolleyes:

This is how it should go:

"Let's see, I'm going to shoot with my handgunners at your knights. 3 wounds."
"Okay, 2 saved. Are you finished?"
"Hmm...let's see..."
"Are you finished?"
"...Will you shut up a second? I'm thinking there."

Though to be honest, if it goes as you say, I'd reply "yeah right, in your dreams pal" and procede to shoot with my huntsmen, or I'd pack up depending on how close I am to slapping the ***hole. Can't see how I would happen to play a lowlife like that though.

chaospantz
12-09-2012, 06:38
in friendly games we tend to remind eachother, or at least the younger players about things like remains in play and lore effects. In tournies we don't. It's not being mean or bad manners, its a tourny, as much as I like having a fun game I also don't want to get my but kicked because I helped a player beat me. As for the OP I wouldnt let it bother you. the guy was a jerk and I hope you broke his army in two.

samael
12-09-2012, 06:56
As for the OP I wouldnt let it bother you. the guy was a jerk and I hope you broke his army in two.

Now that's definitely bad manners and maybe even considered overkill. :-)

Edit: DOH ARMY! ...not arm...like I read it....., sorry chaospantz my bad.

The bearded one
13-09-2012, 03:56
This is how it should go:

"Let's see, I'm going to shoot with my handgunners at your knights. 3 wounds."
"Okay, 2 saved. Are you finished?"
"Hmm...let's see..."
"Are you finished?"
"...Will you shut up a second? I'm thinking there."

Though to be honest, if it goes as you say, I'd reply "yeah right, in your dreams pal" and procede to shoot with my huntsmen, or I'd pack up depending on how close I am to slapping the ***hole. Can't see how I would happen to play a lowlife like that though.

In the local group we agree you only move on to the next phase when you start performing an action for it, or roll your first dice or whatever. Saying 'the combat phase has started' does not make it so yet :p Often we allow some minor backtracking though, as long as it isnt too much hassle, like moving 1 unit forward or rolling to rally or whatever.

Urgat
13-09-2012, 07:18
Yeay, same. In my "group" (of three), it would be pretty bad if we started alienating each other with idiotic behaviour like that :p

Ganymede
13-09-2012, 08:31
Let's consider what the situation would be if we tweaked slightly. Imagine if, instead of generating a beneficial effect for your opponent, it instead created a detrimental effect. More specifically, imagine that the spell took a wound off of the treeman every time it was cast?

If he forgot to tally the wound, would we remind the opponent every single time the issue came up? Abso-flippin-lutely!

Would it be considered bad manners to remind your opponent that he should be losing wounds? No-flippin-way!


Should the situation be any different if you were reminding your opponent of a beneficial effect instead, as in this case? I sure don't think so.

(As an aside, it is possible that your opponent was grumbling because of a different reason.)

oldWitheredCorpse
13-09-2012, 14:56
In the local group we agree you only move on to the next phase when you start performing an action for it, or roll your first dice or whatever. Saying 'the combat phase has started' does not make it so yet :p Often we allow some minor backtracking though, as long as it isnt too much hassle, like moving 1 unit forward or rolling to rally or whatever.

I think this is the best rule: a phase has started when the action has. If you need to do something before charges are declared, you can do it as long as you haven't declared a charge or proceeded with remaining moves or mandatory movement. If all it takes to "go back" is to say the words "sorry, I forgot this", and doesn't make things happen in the wrong order, everything is fine. For example, you're not able to drink a potion of strength at the start of the close combat phase, because it is a tactical decision you need to make before even declaring charges. "No backtracking" may seem harsh, but it makes for a quicker, more disciplined game, I think.

Morax
13-09-2012, 15:51
My local gaming group also tries to stick with this principle of a phase starting once an action has, or most of the time we say it has started once you have rolled the dice for an action in that phase. Often, if it is not a competitive game, I'll allow my opponents to back track even after the dice have been rolled if it doesn't look like it would have changed anything. In a more competitive game however, we stick hard and fast with once the dice are rolled, they are rolled. I've had times I've skipped whole phases because I went to do something else I shouldn't have. In a tournament, that's on me and I should have know better. In a friendly pick-up game I'd expect something more reasonable.

As to reminding a player about something at the table, it's only rude if your opponent asks you to stop and you continue to do so. You are trying to do them a favor, if they don't appreciate that, then that is on them.

Majinmonkey
13-09-2012, 18:09
Someone already referred to mtg in this post, so i will now do the same.

In magic tournaments there is something called the "game state"
The game state is correct when all mandatory effects are resolved correctly.

Mandatory effects in whfb would include models taking their best saves, models attacking in close combat, and fear/terror tests and panic. These are things that must happen according to the brb, not options you may ignore at will.

In magic tournaments a judge will give warnings to both players when they are not keeping the game state on track, meaning those mandatory rules are both players responsibility to ensure that they are observed regardless of who owns the model in question.

When it comes to optional actions, such as the option to redirect a charge, or to hold instead of pursuing, these are not included in the game state, these are tactical options that are by no means mandatory.

In these situations, some players (like me I may add) like to remind their opponents of these options if they believe they have been simply forgotten rather than purposefully overlooked.

In mtg, as long as the player on the receiving end of these reminders doesn't mind, out makes for a better game and good sportsmanship and perhaps a new friend, but if the player takes offense for whatever reason, a judge would ask the "friendly" player to cease offering advice about the decisions the opponent gets to make.

Now I personally offer up this mtg
related scenario because I do not have much experience in Warhammer tournament play, my competitive experience lies in mtg.

Lord Dan
13-09-2012, 19:52
Someone already referred to mtg in this post, so i will now do the same.

In magic tournaments there is something called the "game state"
The game state is correct when all mandatory effects are resolved correctly.

Mandatory effects in whfb would include models taking their best saves, models attacking in close combat, and fear/terror tests and panic. These are things that must happen according to the brb, not options you may ignore at will.

In magic tournaments a judge will give warnings to both players when they are not keeping the game state on track, meaning those mandatory rules are both players responsibility to ensure that they are observed regardless of who owns the model in question.

When it comes to optional actions, such as the option to redirect a charge, or to hold instead of pursuing, these are not included in the game state, these are tactical options that are by no means mandatory.

In these situations, some players (like me I may add) like to remind their opponents of these options if they believe they have been simply forgotten rather than purposefully overlooked.

In mtg, as long as the player on the receiving end of these reminders doesn't mind, out makes for a better game and good sportsmanship and perhaps a new friend, but if the player takes offense for whatever reason, a judge would ask the "friendly" player to cease offering advice about the decisions the opponent gets to make.

Now I personally offer up this mtg
related scenario because I do not have much experience in Warhammer tournament play, my competitive experience lies in mtg.

I like the example, and I agree wholeheartedly, however I couldn't stop smiling at the thought of a MTG judge dressed like a referee and tossing yellow flags whenever a player forgot to implement a card's effect.

Urgat
13-09-2012, 20:39
Must be a very boring role too :p

Why
14-09-2012, 05:49
"Okay, I shoot with my glade guard. 7 wounds"
"I save 2."
"Alright now my glade riders shoot hit 3..."
Red flag flies into your face.
"TWEET!TWEET! Red card he fogot his ward save."
"But Ref..."
"Sorry pal, them's the rules. Start packing up your models."
:p

Now I'll never get that image out of my head.