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SimaoSegunda
31-08-2012, 18:15
Hi guys,

I was playing against a regular Lizardman opponent last week, and he cast a spell on my Shaman bunker, I think it was Net of Amyntok(?), that meant I had to, in his own words, "take a strength test if you want to move or shoot, and if you fail you take damage". Since I didn't intend to move the unit, or shoot with it, I let it go.

Fast forward to my turn, the magic phase rolls around, so I fire off a couple of spells with my shaman. One gets dispelled, the other was cast. At which point, my opponent says "oh, I forgot to tell you, you also have to test when you want to cast a spell. Since you've cast two, you'll have to test now, and if you fail, you'll have to cancel the spell". My attitude was pretty much that it isn't my fault if he doesn't know his own rules, and he should just suck it up and remember it next time (I legitimately didn't know anything about the spell other than what he told me). In the end we compromised that the spell was cast, and then I had to take the test, but I can't deny being annoyed by it, especially because the guy in question is a known WAAC-merchant

Ultimately, I won the game by a pretty huge margin, but it still left a bit of a bitter taste in the mouth. Am I overreacting? Or should I have been more assertive that he should learn his rules better?

Gary wyper
31-08-2012, 18:32
or maybe you should learn the spells,its not as though its an army specific lore

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Hell Storm
31-08-2012, 18:38
I would tell him that since he failed to mention casting spells in his first description, it wouldn't count this time. He should have given an accurate description or have read it verbatim. If it sounds like he isn't reading the spell verbatim next time, ask to see the spell. It is partially your responsibility to either know the rules or ask to see them.


or maybe you should learn the spells,its not as though its an army specific lore

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

Memorizing spells ins't unnecessary to play the game. Knowing your army is. As he plays Orcs and Goblins, he doesn't even have access to Light so it isn't his responsibility to know what it does; its his opponent's responsibility to accurately give a decsription.

SimaoSegunda
31-08-2012, 18:46
Oh, I get that. I tend to use Waaagh magic myself, not that that's much of an excuse. I just figured that since he knew full well he was casting it on my only wizard's unit, he would have told me the proper rules. I assumed that asking him to tell me what the spell does constituted sufficient due dilligence, but I doubt I'll make that mistake again.

Jericho
31-08-2012, 18:54
I'm usually pretty good about letting these things go, but in this case it would have been totally acceptable to say "OK well you didn't remember it at the time, so we'll just move on and do it right next turn." It looks like you came up with a decent compromise though.

A friend of mine who has been playing Eldar since 2nd edition always forgets to cast his powers in the movement phase, but we usually let it go. When I (repeatedly) kept forgetting to cast my powers in a game vs Space Wolves the other day, I was quite happy to just laugh it off and move on without all my Librarian granting re-rolls etc. for the turn. The odd mulligan is totally acceptable once in a while (i.e., hey man I forgot to move this one unit before I moved on to the next phase) but it's not exactly fair to magically change the outcome of multiple previous actions once they have been resolved, especially if you're the one who stands to benefit quite a bit from the change.

Avian
31-08-2012, 19:14
I have printed out small cards that summarize spell effects, casting values, range, etc. That way, my opponent can easily check things for himself and I don't have to remind him.

But yeah, I agree with Jericho.

theunwantedbeing
31-08-2012, 19:21
It's his fault for not saying what the spell actually did.

Treat it as if the spells effects failed to do anything and carry on as if everything was correct.
This isn't much different to facing a character with an illegal amount of magical items, you just treat everything that was already revealed as being there and the new item that puts him over doesn't get to exist.

I pulled this on a Daemon player who consistently cheated with his lists.
I just waited for him to declare whatever it was he wanted extra in his army and pointed out that his army was already at its points limit with no upgrades on anything at all in the army (which was true). From that point on he had to make do with zero upgrades (no command or gifts, no extra anything).

Malorian
31-08-2012, 20:08
If this happened to me I would not roll for the first spell (it's gone and done) but would roll for the current one.

Yes maybe the opponent should have told me, but getting burned by it actually helps to make sure I NEVER forget it again.

RaShondala
31-08-2012, 21:43
If this happened to me I would not roll for the first spell (it's gone and done) but would roll for the current one.

Yes maybe the opponent should have told me, but getting burned by it actually helps to make sure I NEVER forget it again.

I disagree. I would have continued as normal, because he should have said so to begin with.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 21:46
I would have punched him in the face, and rolled for the casting attempt. In this way you'll never forget about that spells effect (per Malorian's point) AND your opponent will never forget to mention it again.

Kayosiv
31-08-2012, 22:54
Sometimes your opponent can be a jerk and collapse forwards onto your own models though.

Lord Dan
31-08-2012, 23:09
Sometimes your opponent can be a jerk and collapse forwards onto your own models though.

That means you didn't hit him hard enough. Ideally he'll have been blown backwards into something else.

RaShondala
31-08-2012, 23:19
I would have punched him in the face, and rolled for the casting attempt. In this way you'll never forget about that spells effect (per Malorian's point) AND your opponent will never forget to mention it again.

LOL. To be honest, I wouldn't see this as unreasonable. :L

ArtificerArmour
01-09-2012, 00:17
I always read the magic description before allowing or dispelling. But we actually use magic cards...

The bearded one
01-09-2012, 01:20
I always read the magic description before allowing or dispelling. But we actually use magic cards...

That generally solves all magic issues ;) You know what spells are active, wether they're still active, remains in plays or not, type, range, what they do, easy peasy.

m1acca1551
01-09-2012, 01:48
When spells are rolled, i usually ask to see his cards and show my opponent mine. This can help to know exactly what spells do at the start of the game, and in the event we forget we simply read the card out after casting. Either that or i note what he has on a bit of paper and look them up in either the brb or a army specific magic sheet.

KNOW THY ENEMY

Gary wyper
01-09-2012, 07:54
buy the cards and learn the spells,or at least have them or the brb with you when playing games

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Ratarsed
01-09-2012, 08:50
If this happened to me I would not roll for the first spell (it's gone and done) but would roll for the current one.

Yes maybe the opponent should have told me, but getting burned by it actually helps to make sure I NEVER forget it again.

This is what I would have done I think.

ftayl5
01-09-2012, 09:37
Would have been annoyed if it was me. If someone asks you what something does, you need to tell them what it does. If you forget a part then it's not really fair on them to then say a turn later "oh yeah, the spell also does this.."

Like if I cast flame cage and they didn't know what it did and I said "oh it's just a fireball basically" so they don't dispel it. Then at the start of their next turn I say "oh yeah, I forgot, if that unit moves now it takes a bunch more hits."
If they had known that, they might have actually wanted to dispel the flame cage in the first place.

SimaoSegunda
01-09-2012, 11:40
Would have been annoyed if it was me. If someone asks you what something does, you need to tell them what it does. If you forget a part then it's not really fair on them to then say a turn later "oh yeah, the spell also does this.."

That was what annoyed me, almost made me feel like he was wanting me to cast spells so that he could inflict the damage.


Like if I cast flame cage and they didn't know what it did and I said "oh it's just a fireball basically" so they don't dispel it. Then at the start of their next turn I say "oh yeah, I forgot, if that unit moves now it takes a bunch more hits."
If they had known that, they might have actually wanted to dispel the flame cage in the first place.

Well, quite. As I said in the original post, I wasn't intending to move the unit anyway, so I figured I'd let it go. I think I'd have been rather more annoyed about it if it wasn't for the fact that I won the game convincingly.

The Low King
01-09-2012, 12:31
With spells that are in the Main rule book i assume that my opponant knows the spell, if he doesnt then it is on him to simply either flip to the page where the spells are or look at my magic cards. I will give a summary of what it does if they ask, often people (me paticularly) know a spell by its effects rather than its name.
With army specfic lores i will hand my opponant my army book when ive rolled for spells so that they can have a read over them, then i will let them look again whenever they ask (and will of course remind them of the effects when i cast it anyway).

If my opponant doesnt dispell it (or does) based on a false understanding of the spell that is their fault, it is not my responsibilty to explain every rule of the game to them (although i will try to summarise a spell as accurately as possible). Ultimately, if you want to know the rules for something, read them yourself.

However, come the phase where the spell has its effect (in this case the magic phase) he really should remember to roll for the spells effects. He should have marked the unit to remind himself that it has something cast on it. If he only remembers after the spell shouldnt have had an effect then he cant really retroactively force you to roll. With something that would have such a big effect on the magic phase i would either ignore it, the chance has passed, or redo the whole magic phase (maybe not the Winds of magic roll). I would also say that it is your decision, how much of a good sport you want to be, as it is his mistake (like forgetting hatred or something). As i think it says in the rules, its fine to go back and change things, so long as it doesnt have a large effect on the game.

Ratarsed
01-09-2012, 14:15
Yes I think you need to take some of the responsibility. These spells are in the main rule book and there for you to look at if you can be bothered. Maybe he deliberately played down the spell when asked hoping you would let it go and you fell for it! As Malorian said, lesson learned I think. Of course going back and changing spells already cast is out the question. If he's going to try and fool you into letting the spell go then he had better remember to apply it's effects and it's not like you can remind him seeing as you were not aware.
Moral of this story is if you want to know what effect something has, ask to read it yourself. You will be amazed at how often people play things incorrectly firmly believing it is what is written in the book. (Me included!:o )

macejase
01-09-2012, 22:06
The way I always play it if you forget something and realise too late, it's your own fault, but a good opponent will tell you anyway if they realise first. For example, if you forget to move a unit and then say 'now the magic phase' it's too late if you realise, unless your opponent says 'what about x you haven't moved it yet' - same with rules like the spell in your example. Would just be a case of 'you forgot to mention that, I didn't know either, so it didn't happen'

Balerion
01-09-2012, 22:54
I generally support rolling back as much gameplay as necessary in order to obtain a correct result, as long as it's fair and practical.

So, for example, if Net was the final spell he cast and you were out of dispel dice anyway, you should go back and take the test for your own spells (and get the expended power dice back, of course). You couldn't have stopped the Net anyway, and the extent of its effect would have had no bearing on your ability to dispel it.

If he successfully cast his incorrectly explained version of Net while you still had dispel opportunities, then he should suffer the consequences -- presenting a false explanation of an ability in order to make it seem less threatening than it is would be considered cheating by most people.

The Low King
01-09-2012, 23:12
If he successfully cast his incorrectly explained version of Net while you still had dispel opportunities, then he should suffer the consequences -- presenting a false explanation of an ability in order to make it seem less threatening than it is would be considered cheating by most people.

How can you possibly prove he did it intentionally? They both made a rules mistake.

Quinzy
01-09-2012, 23:26
You had already cast, and he had not mentioned the effect of the spell on casters, which means the cast gets through. Had he mentioned it before you rolled to cast, it would be different. It's the equivalent of moving a unit, then the opponent telling you you must pass a strength check or not move and take damage. By that stage the time had passed for him to tell you.

My advice is have a copy of the rule book on hand, and check the details of a spell being cast.

T10
02-09-2012, 07:57
Around here we usually don't do tap-backs if this would have major consequences on further actions taken beyond that point. If we realize that we've forgotten to take a Panic test in the previous turn, then we will take the test as long as it wasn't involved in anything too complex after that - we play this by ear, as they say.

Player 1: My infantry charges your archers.

Player 2: Stand & Shoot! (rolls) Hah! Four dead.

Player 1: (rolls) I pass my Panic test. This knights also charge the archers.

Player 2: Oh, I just remembered the archers were supposed to make a Panic test for friends breaking within 6" that last turn. (rolls dice) Whoops!

Player 1: Ok, so they flee over there. That's within charge range of my infantry. I'll charge them instead of your archers and run them off the table. Then I'll redirect and charge the archers as originally planned. (rolls) Crap!

Player 2: You can have your Stand & Shoot casualties back. But I'll make the S&S against the charging knights instead then.

Player 1: Roll 'em!


or maybe you should learn the spells,its not as though its an army specific lore

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

You should of course read the rules and know them, including the spells. However, the onus is on the player using those rules: He should know what he is doing or he shouldn't do it. :)

WizzyWarlock
02-09-2012, 11:45
Whenever I forget something I tend to suck it up, like forgetting to move or shoot with a unit, or forgetting some other thing that would have been useful. I remember a game recently where I'd completely forgotten to move my Treeman after we'd started combat. I didn't say, "Can I move this?", I was more like, "Ahh damn, forgot to move my Treeman.. Oh well.".

Urgat
02-09-2012, 14:05
Would have been annoyed if it was me. If someone asks you what something does, you need to tell them what it does. If you forget a part then it's not really fair on them to then say a turn later "oh yeah, the spell also does this.."

Yeah, that. If he forgets about some effects of a spell, well, then, he forgets about these effects till the spell ends. WOnder how he'd take forgetting to release fanatics.
"Oh yeah, forgot to tell you, there's three fanatics in taht unit, they should have been released when you came within 8". Sorry about that, now you're in melee with my gobs, I don't even need to roll for distances."

theunwantedbeing
02-09-2012, 16:30
Yeah, that. If he forgets about some effects of a spell, well, then, he forgets about these effects till the spell ends. WOnder how he'd take forgetting to release fanatics.
"Oh yeah, forgot to tell you, there's three fanatics in taht unit, they should have been released when you came within 8". Sorry about that, now you're in melee with my gobs, I don't even need to roll for distances."

How could the unit have fanatics if they weren't released when an enemy came within 8"?
Clearly he forgot to add them to his list :D

TheDungen
02-09-2012, 21:29
if he had mentioned that prior to you making the casting roll he would be in the right but if he did it after its his own fault he didnt remember.

warplock
02-09-2012, 23:14
if he had mentioned that prior to you making the casting roll he would be in the right

Not really, since the knowledge that the spell also affects casting may have affected the opponent's decision to dispel it.

T10
03-09-2012, 08:16
In this way you'll never forget about that spells effect (per Malorian's point) AND your opponent will never forget to mention it again.

I don't think the suggestion of violence as a means to solve player vs. player conflict is in line with the posting guidelines.

Anyways. Hit a man and he'll come back for revenge. Give him a kiss and he'll avoid you forever.

-T10

Urgat
03-09-2012, 09:02
And if you don't want to kiss a man, have one of your friends do it for you :p

Kallstrom
03-09-2012, 15:10
The thing is, you can't just backtrack by rolling for those two spells since you could have changed your strategy completely by choosing to use those two spells. For example, if you knew that the caster would have to take tests you might have waited out on that magic phase, resulting in a charge or two earlier in the round to compensate, which locked you into some combats which could be a game changer. So it ain't as easy as one can think.

TheDungen
03-09-2012, 17:22
knowing the rules is your job, remembering stuff that benefits him is his job. If he forgets stuff he has only himself to blame. You NEVER do a rollback in the turn if somethign has happened. If i say i end my movement phase then realise there is somethign else i want to move before i cast any spells in the maghic phase fair enough. But if I cast a spell and then say hey wait i wanted to move that unit. Sorry thats no go. If he would have you do a str test or fail the spell then he has to point that out when you are supposed to make that roll he cant come back later and say btw you should've made those rolls. You can be a nice guy and do but he cant demand that you do.