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Sanath
10-05-2006, 16:02
Hi,guys

In my gaming community a necron is a rarity.....why?? Because nobody wants to play against them!!! They are said to be nearly invincible on certain army lists and only specifically designed lists can take care of necrons....soo guys is it true ??Does Necrons really beat the s&*t out of everything they come across??? Can a normal guy play this army without being called a Noob or a powergamer??? I dont think my list could handle the necrons...(ohter thing that it has biiig problems with SM)

Reign in Blood
10-05-2006, 16:09
I have never seen a game where they have actualy won. From my experience they are really hard but not hard enough. People usually make them phase out in my experience. But for an army with fairly few units (IMO compared to other armies) they need to be pretty hard at the core of the army. That being said/written I have never seen them being fielded in more than 1500 pts so that might change things.

self biased
10-05-2006, 16:14
they've got their strengths and weaknesses. generally speaking you want to pick one unit and eliminate it, rather than doing blanket damage to the whole army. nobody can call you beardy if you take an army of warriors and a few destroyers and immortals. it's very tough to eliminate that many necrons as a whole, but they're basic troops.

lord_blackfang
10-05-2006, 16:15
As long as you know what you're doing, they can be beaten like any other army. They're also rather predictable.

self biased
10-05-2006, 16:18
yeah, they do have a tendency to turtle up.

Bob Hunk
10-05-2006, 16:20
Players can sometimes mistake Necrons for a 'broken' army if it's their first encounter with them - they have a few nasty tricks that can cause huge problems for the unprepared.
Sure, some armies may struggle against them more than others, but every army has counter-part armies that struggle against them...

Just out of interest, if none of your group want to play against Necrons, then how have they formed this opinion? :) As mentioned above, if some of them have fought a single game and been caught 'off guard' by a Necron trick, then I can see why they might think this.

Gae'Mot
10-05-2006, 16:46
Necrons require different tactics, so adjust to them.

I've lost with my necrons on several occasions. I've also won a few times, and the childish types always claim that necrons are unbeatable after a defeat.
- "The monolith is indestructible" -> try meltabombs for example
- "They're too tough" -> basicly not tougher than the SM.
And I'm not even going to adress the WWB-rule.

Try playing a lot more against the necrons, you'd be suprised how quick you notice their disadvantages and make up a tactic to exploit it.

Grimtuff
10-05-2006, 16:56
- "The monolith is indestructible" -> try meltabombs for example
.


Pssst Meltabombs don't work as good as you think, as they lose the 2D6 pen.

I say just use a Vindicator with a nice big fat Demolisher Cannon on it, that or just phase out the rest of the force.

Zzarchov
10-05-2006, 17:14
Necrons can be broken like any other list. If you build a force to specifically take down one, a Take all comers list can't touch them. This is true of any army.

Necrons are the same as any other army.

joshypoo
10-05-2006, 17:34
Necrons are not broken or unbeatable, they're just generally not fun to play against. A friendly opponent that designs a list to be fun will be fun, but too often the competitive lists just make for a drawn out trial of frustration that leaves you feeling unclean and unsatisfied(unless he flips out and throws his 'lith when he loses).

Loricatus
10-05-2006, 18:06
I find that most competitive Necron armies tend to look very much alike due to the lack of troop choices. Maybe that's a factor in your group's dislike of Necrons. Once you've seen them once, you've seen them all. It can get a little dull after a while.

Ironhand
10-05-2006, 18:19
Necrons are most certainly not unbeatable. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but an astute player should be able to handle them with almost any army. Necrons have a limited number of choices, and so tend to be fairly predictable once you've played them a few times.

TheOneWithNoName
10-05-2006, 18:26
I find that most competitive Necron armies tend to look very much alike due to the lack of troop choices. Maybe that's a factor in your group's dislike of Necrons. Once you've seen them once, you've seen them all. It can get a little dull after a while.

I think the whole 'Space Marines who come back' thing is what people dislike.

damz451
10-05-2006, 18:46
iv faced them a few times and had no problems, mass fire power at one unit will destroy the unit and not allow the wbb rule to take effect, do that two or three turns and u got phase out

setekhite
10-05-2006, 18:51
Once you've seen them once, you've seen them all. It can get a little dull after a while.

To be honest, I think that's more down to Necron players than anything else. Necrons can adopt mobile or assault approaches to games, it's just that only a relatively small number of players seem to look beyond the 'huddle around the resurrection orb' approach.

Grand Master Raziel
10-05-2006, 20:37
Necrons can be a fantastic army if played well. The thing is, I've never, ever seen them played well. Also, like all armies, if you've read the Codex and understand how their rules work, you'll be much better prepared to counter their clever tricks.

Latro_
10-05-2006, 21:26
The hardest necron army i think to fight against is one made up almost all of warriors and a few destroyers in as support.

Lethal combo.

yodasluck
10-05-2006, 22:02
I find that my problem with the warrior/destroyer combo is not being able to put down enough warrior or destroyer units with my Tau before the scarabs lock me in place. Now, the issue may be we have too much terrain and not enough fire lanes of 36 inches (I believe our longest one is only 24-28 inches). A hybrid Tau list is being used (suit heavy).

However, my Marines have split in all my battles with Necrons, including one that was nearly all shooting (Marine Commander w/lightning claws vs 5 necron swarms was the only close combat).

On further thought, I would suggest a fix of offering the WBB as wargear (like the Tau bonding knife or Imperial Purity Seal) to give the Necrons some variety. And maybe the Slow & Purposeful USR for warrior groups greater than 12 to give them the proper character.

scarvet
10-05-2006, 22:43
Where about do you live, i am sure there is a number of good nerco players on warseer, we will show you::):
Anyway, necron is imbalanced. They are good to awesome agaisnt non-MEQ army, but they struggle agaisnt MEQ especially heavy infantry list.
yodasluck: unless they really re-think the stats and rules for necrons, otherwise every body will just have WWB.
setekhie: In fact, if you would like to visit the Nercon tactica, we do try hard to not having Res.Orb as it is boring for keep using the same kind of wargear. However, in a world of min/max las cannon, mass power weapon, rending etc...we don't have a choice if we want to stand a chance agaisnt them.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-05-2006, 22:47
Monoliths are a nightmare for Eldar players. Wraithguard are excellent against them but few players would take them for any other reason other than to "tool" up against Necrons. The best tactic is to ignore them and concentrate on those warriors with starcannons and other low AP goodness.

Dark Reapers are unfortunately a complete waste of points against Necrons as you can guarantee that they will be the very first target of the compulsary Immortal squad with veil of darkness.

Hlokk
10-05-2006, 22:51
Im convinced theres an armylist machine making idential lists:

4 billion warriors: Check
Resurrection Orb: check
Lord with destroyer body: check
Monolith: Check

It seems to me that no-one plays them because their just not that much fun. By the time you shell out for your compulsory troop choices and your HQ, you have very few points to spend on anything else if you dont want to be hit with phase out.

What they should do is make flayed ones troop choices and give us a Necron Thane or some HQ thats actually usable in combat patrol.

Sekhmet
10-05-2006, 23:34
On further thought, I would suggest a fix of offering the WBB as wargear (like the Tau bonding knife or Imperial Purity Seal) to give the Necrons some variety. And maybe the Slow & Purposeful USR for warrior groups greater than 12 to give them the proper character.
Well, if you made WBB as wargear, you'd have to remove the 75% phase out as well as reduce point costs of all "necron" units. Fun times.

Then you could make gauss weapons rending. They really should be. They're like.. pseudo rending right now. :(

Hlokk, I agree that requiring 20 warriors definately cuts down on creative lists. And only having 3+ wound HQ choices makes them hard to use in combat patrols (along with the 180 minimum warrior squad... ******* half the points of combat patrol! Totally not fair...).

I've never personally seen an army list like the one you've described. I've seen lord+vod, immortals, minimum warriors (20 of them x.x) and lots of destroyers. I've seen lord+vod, immortals, 30 warriors, 2 monoliths (total :cheese:).. but I've never seen a list made for lots of warriors, a lord that stays around the warriors with a rez orb and destroyer body (waste of the destroyer hull honestly), and monoliths just to recycle the warriors again. And I've been playing Necrons for 8 years, I always pay attention to Necrons.


By the way... melta bombs against a monolith? Are you kidding? 1 attack per model, 6s to hit, 6s to glance, 6 to destroy/5 to make easier to hit next time. Then you get run over / shot / blasted / have a Necron squad teleported ontop of you.

marv335
10-05-2006, 23:56
storm guardians with haywire grenades. (a fantastic way to get rid of monoliths). witchblades, D-cannon batteries.
who said eldar have trouble with monoliths.

azimaith
11-05-2006, 00:22
Eldar only have problems with necrons because so many play cookie cutter starcannon/brightlance lists. Brightlances simply *can't* deal with the monolith, but if they tried diversifying their armies then it wouldn't be such a problem. Just like starcannons are going to bite against a 200 gaunt army.

Sek, yes, melta bombs don't get an extra d6, why bother assaulting skimmers anyways, just shoot them with lascannons, lots and lots of them. They're not any harder to kill than a land raider with flat out standard firepower.

In my experiences necrons tend to be *very* weak against certain armies and very tough to near impossible on others.

For example, khorne berserkers. They tore me up something fierce when I played them, pretty much any chaos, assault marines, blood angels, all rip me up. With initative 2 I can only rely on a trick I learned after many many games. (No necrons in b2b means no sweeps.)

However.. against armies like tau, I have a friend who can vouch for this, they are *horrifying.* Tau tanks, which are usually near ivioable for other armies are torn apart in the first few turns, tau get thrown into assault and a monolith can rain destruction on the entire core of the army with utter invulnerability (if they didn't take emps) after the warriors, immortals, and destroyers have crushed the vehicles and broadsides.

Necrons aren't really overpowered, they're actually an army thats reminscent of eldar. A few really good choices (warriors, immortals, and the destroyers... Monolith too.) with a whole bunch of relatively unused or not that useful units. They tend to have a hard time dealing with MEq lists with any hard assault units as well.

Sekhmet
11-05-2006, 00:41
Sek, yes, melta bombs don't get an extra d6, why bother assaulting skimmers anyways, just shoot them with lascannons, lots and lots of them. They're not any harder to kill than a land raider with flat out standard firepower.

Yeah I know, Gae'mot said melta bombs were good for destroying monoliths. I thought it was funny.

The main problem eldar have with monoliths is that they have to get very close to kill it, within 24". Sure guardian squads can use haywire nades, but if you got that close in the first place you must be pretty lucky. And you still need 6s to hit. But as Azimaith said, I don't think starcannon armies can complain about cheese, ever. To anyone.



For example, khorne berserkers. They tore me up something fierce when I played them, pretty much any chaos, assault marines, blood angels, all rip me up. With initative 2 I can only rely on a trick I learned after many many games. (No necrons in b2b means no sweeps.)

What's b2b?



However.. against armies like tau, I have a friend who can vouch for this, they are *horrifying.* Tau tanks, which are usually near ivioable for other armies are torn apart in the first few turns, tau get thrown into assault and a monolith can rain destruction on the entire core of the army with utter invulnerability (if they didn't take emps) after the warriors, immortals, and destroyers have crushed the vehicles and broadsides.

Oh yeah, you can take down any squad without a battle suit down to 50% with a single destroyer unit. Tau drop like flies against Necrons, it's kinda scary.

You know what's sad? I've never fought against a deathwing army, but I believe it would utterly destroy my Necrons. The only things that can kill terminators at range are both heavy support choices. One requires a "hit" on a scatter dice to kill a single model. In close combat, power fists equate to lots of dead robots. The other thing sad about this is that I think Necrons are one of the only armies that really can't deal with terminators or obliterators besides the application of massive amounts of shots.

Sareld
11-05-2006, 01:16
Eldar only have problems with necrons because so many play cookie cutter starcannon/brightlance lists. Brightlances simply *can't* deal with the monolith, but if they tried diversifying their armies then it wouldn't be such a problem. Just like starcannons are going to bite against a 200 gaunt army.


Craftworld eldar is not the only kind of eldar there is. Dark eldat havent got any anti-tank weapons at all that isnt a lance.. Monoliths are simply immortal versus most DE armies.



Necrons aren't really overpowered, they're actually an army thats reminscent of eldar. A few really good choices (warriors, immortals, and the destroyers... Monolith too.) with a whole bunch of relatively unused or not that useful units. They tend to have a hard time dealing with MEq lists with any hard assault units as well.


Problems with assault you say? Ive seen necrons beat DE assault armies very easily time after time. The indestructable monoliths simply float around the battlefield, and teleports anything that reaches CC a few inches away, and then oblitterates the unlucky CC unit with rapid fire afterwards. As a DE player, I think that necrons are the most powerful race in existance, and unless the necron player does something really dumb like deepstriking a monolith off the table or something, we are usually chanceless.

I would personally not play against necrons in friendly games, but in tournaments I guess I would go through the formalities of placing my army on the table, only to see it being shot to bits while there is nothing I can do..

teh_master-chef
11-05-2006, 01:24
There are two types of necron players. There are the 5th grade players who think they're invincible etc and don't know what they're doing. And then there are the dangerous players that know how to use them. There is such thing as a dangerous necron player.

azimaith
11-05-2006, 01:25
Yeah I know, Gae'mot said melta bombs were good for destroying monoliths. I thought it was funny.

The main problem eldar have with monoliths is that they have to get very close to kill it, within 24". Sure guardian squads can use haywire nades, but if you got that close in the first place you must be pretty lucky. And you still need 6s to hit. But as Azimaith said, I don't think starcannon armies can complain about cheese, ever. To anyone.
I can't put all the blame on the Eldar here, lets face it, alot of their AT weapons besides the brightlance are kind of... well average, but its not an excuse.



What's b2b?

Base to base. According to the rules, if there are no models in base to base with enemy models at the end of an assault, there can be no sweeping advances and the side that loses (and fails ld) falls back as normal. Necrons have terrible initiative and when power weapon heavy squads throw themselves into necrons you generally don't have a problem making the wounds to get rid of the front base to base line. Sure you don't get to attack back, but who cares, you can rapid fire next turn and you can't be run down. If your charging necrons they need to be solid charges.



Oh yeah, you can take down any squad without a battle suit down to 50% with a single destroyer unit. Tau drop like flies against Necrons, it's kinda scary.

Exactly, they're alot like the shooty army that destroys shooty armies.



You know what's sad? I've never fought against a deathwing army, but I believe it would utterly destroy my Necrons. The only things that can kill terminators at range are both heavy support choices. One requires a "hit" on a scatter dice to kill a single model. In close combat, power fists equate to lots of dead robots. The other thing sad about this is that I think Necrons are one of the only armies that really can't deal with terminators or obliterators besides the application of massive amounts of shots.
Well thats true, but alot of shots is certainly what they've got :).


Craftworld eldar is not the only kind of eldar there is. Dark eldat havent got any anti-tank weapons at all that isnt a lance.. Monoliths are simply immortal versus most DE armies.

Well you've got the benefit of mass numbers of str 8 weapons. 2 Dlances in a warrior squad, many squads with far more. Hard, yes, impossible? Nope. Plus you have haywires.




Problems with assault you say? Ive seen necrons beat DE assault armies very easily time after time.

Was it in assault? No, I don't think it was.



The indestructable monoliths simply float around the battlefield, and teleports anything that reaches CC a few inches away, and then oblitterates the unlucky CC unit with rapid fire afterwards. As a DE player, I think that necrons are the most powerful race in existance, and unless the necron player does something really dumb like deepstriking a monolith off the table or something, we are usually chanceless.

You need to strike hard enough and with enough numbers to break the necrons on the first round of combat. LD lowering things are your buddies.



I would personally not play against necrons in friendly games, but in tournaments I guess I would go through the formalities of placing my army on the table, only to see it being shot to bits while there is nothing I can do..
There is something you can do, but you don't seem to have enough experience vs necrons to really know their weakness. I'm not going to claim that necrons are the same as fighting other races, they just plain *aren't* and thus they require different tactics to defeat. And lets face it, dark eldar are also somewhat old and unupdated.

Sekhmet
11-05-2006, 01:57
Sure monoliths can float around pretty much invincible to DE (except a talos and haywires), but here's the thing. 6" movement, 12" guns that actually hurt you. Particle whip does hurt, but it can't be fired if the monolith teleports anything. And having even 1 monolith is a huge amount of points. That means, a lot less "necrons" on the table. Ignore the big floaty thing and shoot the little scurrying things. The army will phase out. Yay.

The thing about Necrons is that they're VERY good at killing anything with 4+ saves or worse. Aspect warriors, Guardians, Fire warriors, Dark Eldar, Storm troopers, Orks and most Tyranids get destroyed as if they were nothing. The power of the Necron army is mobility, and lots of AP4 shots. By lots I mean a LOT. Necrons are very very very good at that, and it turns out that Dark Eldar fall into that category. Necrons are below average in killing meqs, with their severe lack of AP3 or better weaponry. It's a trade off.

Rypher
11-05-2006, 02:02
Ok. 2 things to point out. I play Eldar
My first battle vs. necrons i won. I used biel-tan, no wraithlords. Um, fire prism anyone? Sure, reapers died 2nd turn, banshees killed a fair share, and falcon helped kill immortals, but they can be beat. It was a destroyer/warrior/lord-immortals army (1850 pts.) I simple whittled them down, bit by bit, and (though i didn't cause a phase out) i still won. Note we were playing RoE and most of our forces were destroyed, it was an excellent game.



Oh, my second thing to point out. I recently started necrons and, trust me, they're not invincible.

Danny Internets
11-05-2006, 04:20
Sure monoliths can float around pretty much invincible to DE (except a talos and haywires), but here's the thing. 6" movement, 12" guns that actually hurt you. Particle whip does hurt, but it can't be fired if the monolith teleports anything. And having even 1 monolith is a huge amount of points. That means, a lot less "necrons" on the table. Ignore the big floaty thing and shoot the little scurrying things. The army will phase out. Yay.

The thing about Necrons is that they're VERY good at killing anything with 4+ saves or worse. Aspect warriors, Guardians, Fire warriors, Dark Eldar, Storm troopers, Orks and most Tyranids get destroyed as if they were nothing. The power of the Necron army is mobility, and lots of AP4 shots. By lots I mean a LOT. Necrons are very very very good at that, and it turns out that Dark Eldar fall into that category. Necrons are below average in killing meqs, with their severe lack of AP3 or better weaponry. It's a trade off.

You said it very well. Necrons excel at destroying Eldar and Dark Eldar, it's like they were specifically designed for it. The first time I played against Dark Eldar I remember that I downed every single one of my enemy's vehicles on the first turn. We called it after that and started over. That time it took me 2 turns. I didn't lose any models. Tyranids are trickier because they are so fast, but with the Bait and Switch tactic that I described in another thread I've yet to lose to them.

Marines, however, can be a problem, especially shooty ones. Iron Warriors are the absolute last army Necrons ever want to face.

Morgrad
11-05-2006, 04:49
The monolith is invincible against Dark Eldar? Um.... Witch squad + Goblet of Spite + Haywire grenades = monolith goes away very, very messily. Even if none of the haywires penetrate, half-a-dozen glances will destroy just about anything.

Ravening Wh0re
11-05-2006, 05:15
The monolith is invincible against Dark Eldar? Um.... Witch squad + Goblet of Spite + Haywire grenades = monolith goes away very, very messily. Even if none of the haywires penetrate, half-a-dozen glances will destroy just about anything.

The Goblet doesn't help against the Monolith, I'm afraid

Morgrad
11-05-2006, 05:53
The Goblet doesn't help against the Monolith, I'm afraid

Maybe I'm wrong, seeing as how I don't own the DE book but I see my brother use that tactic all the time - doesn't the Goblet make all combatants hit on 3+ regardless of target type?

If not, I'll just shaddap now. If so, why wouldn't that help?

Serpine
11-05-2006, 08:00
HBecause nobody wants to play against them!!!

Heh, the only person I ever dealt with who threatened to refuse playing against necrons was a guy who had a heavily mechanised SM army but never actually rushed with it (because he wanted to fire all the weapons possible). All the vehicles would get torn to shreds across the table and the marines had to march most of the way. If he just rushed the vehicles (or invested those points in a more overwhelming force of marines) it would have been no contest: He had blessed dice any time there was a power weapon involved and he had lots of those to, where as I seem to fail 3/4 or more of WBB rolls...

-Serpine-

Sekhmet
11-05-2006, 08:11
What'd he have, lots of razorbacks?

Serpine
11-05-2006, 08:26
What'd he have, lots of razorbacks?

Mostly rhinos and raiders, plodding along at walking speed... at least till they blew up.

-Serpine-

Gae'Mot
11-05-2006, 12:03
Pssst Meltabombs don't work as good as you think, as they lose the 2D6 pen.True, but I've lost my lith on several occasions because of assault marines.
And I know it's a matter of bad luck, but then again: attack a lith enough and it's bound to fall.

Ravening Wh0re
11-05-2006, 13:41
Maybe I'm wrong, seeing as how I don't own the DE book but I see my brother use that tactic all the time - doesn't the Goblet make all combatants hit on 3+ regardless of target type?

If not, I'll just shaddap now. If so, why wouldn't that help?

It says the units hit on 3+ in hand-to-hand combat. Read into that what you will, but I believe that skimmers can only be hit in combat with 6's.

I think the goblet basically give the Wyches the "preferred enemy" rule

Kriegsherr
11-05-2006, 13:57
From a defensive view they are like marines: If you have a good day with your 3+ and WBB Rolls, their nearly invincible. If not, they melt like Butter in the Sun. Of course there are things to make this mor probable, the dreaded anti-MEQ Wonderweapons.

And now to the really sad part: Their defense might be not to bad, their offense is. To bad that is. overpriced marines with bolters? No cheap as dirt heavy weapons and killy special weapons? No Sigfried&Roy-vanish-trick-assault-cannons? no X^2 Attacks in CC? The only thing their real bad news against are Vehicles. Have seen an IG Player getting really sad when all his 3 shiny tanks dissapeared in two turns by the magic of some ordinary nec-warriors. The nec player rolled much more sixes than he did the whole month before I think :)
But even here it's a question if you feel lucky.

Overall the army is not that bad, and I'm not the one judging an army just by their gamewise strength. But their booooring. Their story is boooring and the cheap tries to blend it into the older fluff just made me hate it more. Common, if there have to be undead in space, come up with somthing really innovativ.
Just my opinion... sorry sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut :)

Kriegsherr
11-05-2006, 14:05
True, but I've lost my lith on several occasions because of assault marines.
And I know it's a matter of bad luck, but then again: attack a lith enough and it's bound to fall.

That reminds me of the time when in a game SW against Necs a Monolith and a Lascannon-Pred had a duel. Both Player tried to kill the enemies Tank with their own. After I think four turns of misfires and shaken crews the Pred managed to glance the 'lith. And the SW Player rolled a 6. O how big the pain of the necron player was. He was cursing the gods quite loud on this day :)
But he deserved it for many many Imperial tanks killed with lucky gauss rolls.

Kahadras
11-05-2006, 14:27
I don't particularly like the Necron. When they were first anounced I thought that they would run close to the idea of the Terminator army that Skynet created. Instead it seemed to all go horribly wrong and turned the list into something that is increadably boring to play against.

The best way I have found to take out a Monolith is to ping it with strength 9 weapons. I always keep a Dreadnought with ccw hanging around as well as there has been several occasions where I have managed to immobilise the 'lith and then hit it with a strength 10 power fist.

Kahadras

Icewalker
11-05-2006, 15:07
I am a veteran in the use of Necrons and believe me, depending on who you are playing and what they are using, Necrons can be a bitch to play or can be easy as pie.

I used Grey Knights the other day in a 3 man free for all. The first turn I ripped the $h1t out of the Dark Eldar. My Grey Knight Terminators teleported and beat the crap out of the enemies Necrons with storm bolter fire and stuff. My hidden powerfist squads annhilated his Monolith. Depending on how you play your cards, Necrons can be no problem for you.

I know from experience though, if a Necron player know what he is doing, they can get hairy scary fast. While there are not a lot of variation within the army itself, the Necron list is fairly flexible allowing them to do pretty much whatever the hell they want to except kill Termies or Wyches or any other CC nightmare for them in Close-combat. If they take a lot fo destroyers, be prepped for lots of dice rolling.

All in all, Necrons are like any other army, just with WBB rolls, SM stats, ungodly high Ld and little variety. Use the lack of variety to your advantage and make your opponent stretch his units to the limit if you can.

Snotteef
11-05-2006, 18:58
My only problem with Necrons is the Monolith. Armies which do not have access to S9+ weaponry will have an incredibly difficult time killing it, but that's not the biggest problem. It's the teleporting out of combat that makes it such a pain. Some armies NEED to lock up units in CC to win, but that will never happen if a 'lith is on the table... very frustrating.

Everybody keeps talking about combinations armies can use to take down the 'lith, but we use all-comers lists where I play and I can't see dumping all those points into haywire grenades (especially since needing 6's to hit is ALWAYS a big gamble) when I ONLY need them against Monoliths.

It think the lith is definitely better than a Landraider (living metal, impossible to destroy weapons AND teleporting out of combat!); it should cost more than a Landraider.

Still, no use whining. I just try my best, lose, and look forward to a different opponent.

marv335
11-05-2006, 21:23
monolith doesn't block line of sight like a land raider.
monolith doesn't move as fast as the land raider.
monolith doesn't hold terminators with power weapons like the land raider.

not better, just different.

presonally i'd like to see a smaller transport for the necrons with a lower armour, more speed, and less points.

Ironhand
11-05-2006, 23:35
The Monolith's biggest flaw is that it's most powerful weapon, the particle whip, only has a 24" range. It's relatively easy to whack even with vanilla lascannon (48" range) and with the FW Imperial stuff like Vanquisher Cannons and Laser Destroyers, or Tau Rail Rifles, I've never had trouble dealing with one.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-05-2006, 23:42
How to defeat Necrons.

Jump the Lord, smash his face in.

With the Resi Orb gone, your job gets soooo much easier! Oh, and you could always try playing Tau. Moving as slowly as Necrons, against the firepower of Tau, they always seem to struggle. Might just be my experience, but the point stands regardless!

azimaith
12-05-2006, 02:36
People keep complaining about the monolith and saying its impossible to kill yet I don't understand this.

It has zero special immunities to plain old lascannons, railguns, venom cannons, or the like. It only hurts meltas, lances, and other weird armour penetration dice.

Every army that has access to a melta has access to a weapon of at least strength 9. Eldar inlcuded. And they've also got haywire grenades, singing spears, and witch blades. Those all get *full* penetration just like powerfists. (And don't forget batteries.)

Dark eldar take the opposite method, being capable of taking 2 dark lances ina simple warrior squad. With that kind of quantity (and haywire grenades as well) All at bs4 I might add.

Orks, orks have the same problems with monoliths that they have with all tanks. There are still zzap cannons, dreads, killa kans, rokkits, powerklaws and the like to use still.

The monolith doesn't benefit from any auto glance rules for skimmers because of its speed, it can't fire its ordnance and teleport necrons through the portal either.

I don't see how people claim monoliths to be so impossible to kill when all you need to do is shoot at it with high strength weapons like every other tank in the game. It seems too many attach its resilence against lances and melta weapons to being some sort of crazy holofield effect.

Icewalker
12-05-2006, 02:47
With the Resi Orb gone, your job gets soooo much easier! Oh, and you could always try playing Tau. Moving as slowly as Necrons, against the firepower of Tau, they always seem to struggle. Might just be my experience, but the point stands regardless!
Tau? HAH! Tau are the wimpiest army of all armies! I eat them for breakfast with my crons. Made specifically to eat them alive! Destroyers and Wraiths combined will destroy them. I don't need a Lord, just a crap load of destroyers and such. Taht wins the day every time. :D

Morgrad
12-05-2006, 05:36
It says the units hit on 3+ in hand-to-hand combat. Read into that what you will, but I believe that skimmers can only be hit in combat with 6's.

I think the goblet basically give the Wyches the "preferred enemy" rule

If it gave them the Preferred Enemy special rule, it would say so. They are in hand-to-hand-combat, and they now hit on a 3+ instead of whatever they would normally hit on. I have many times seen witches with haywire grenades and the goblet go haywire on a dreadnaught - also hit only on 6s with grenades - and blow it to smitherines because they now hit on 3+.

As far as using that tactic only against the monolith - why? See vehicle, go kill vehicle. It's all fun and games, be it a monolith, a land speeder, a dreadnaught, a leman russ, or any other haywire succeptable target. :D

Ironhand
12-05-2006, 14:12
Maybe so Icewalker, but my IG Armored Company has massacred Necrons every time it's faced them.

Snotteef
12-05-2006, 14:25
Dark eldar take the opposite method, being capable of taking 2 dark lances ina simple warrior squad. With that kind of quantity (and haywire grenades as well) All at bs4 I might add.


I'm no statistics genius, but I think if you do the math here, you'll find that there is an incredibly low percentage of any number of Dark Lances destroying a monolith. It is true that they hit on 3's, but they can only glance... and then only on a 6, which means they need another 6 to destroy it. I've played games where I fired every DL I have at the 'lith for the entire game and never destroyed the damn thing.

I'm not saying the thing is completely unbalanced. Most armies can destroy it as easily as a land raider (not easy, but do-able). But for a few armies (Dark Eldar, Orks, Eldar) with very limited access to weapons w/ S9+ it becomes an absolute nightmare. GW shouldn't design armies who rely on the Lance rule to defeat armor and then create a vehicle which negates that rule.

Still, I don't expect anything to change and since Necrons are a relatively unpopular army, I don't let it bother me too much.

Sekhmet
12-05-2006, 17:50
Maybe so Icewalker, but my IG Armored Company has massacred Necrons every time it's faced them.
where are armored company rules, anyway? are they chapter approved?

karamazov
12-05-2006, 18:57
*You said it very well. Necrons excel at destroying Eldar and Dark Eldar, it's like they were specifically designed for it.*

Actually I believe they are. Anything that Pete Haines has a hand in is anti-Eldar.
He has stated many times that he HATES Eldar and Elves, and he HATES anyone who plays them. He was not kidding…

This is not a statement I would like coming from a game designer. I would hope he could at least keep his personal bias out of the design process.

A few examples:

Monoliths- Immune to the lance rules making it difficult for Craftworld Eldar and darn near impossible kill with Dark Eldar.

Black Templars- Blessed hull makes the vehicle immune to the lance rule.

Necrons in BFG- Let’s see…. Fragile Eldar ships which rely on their maneuverability and holofields to survive. Yep, the Necrons are just as fast and most of their attacks ignore holofields. Making for quick games…..


Just my opinion.

Nothing to do but suck it up and try harder!
-------

sanctusmortis
12-05-2006, 20:40
What a shock eh, an army that in its background is listed as created to remove all traces of the Old Ones being exceptional against Eldar :D

I'm about to start a Necron army building exercise (I like to make a 1k points list first and look at strategies I would use to see if they're the army for me), and so far Veil of Darkness is most tempting for me. No Res Orb. I tend to think in modelling terms first, though, so that may explain it.

They're certainly not invincible - I'm already seeing ways in which my two normal armies, Tau and Nids, would carve them up. The monolith is a nice way to tie up lots of points that could be spent on preventing a Phase roll. Take out the rest and suddenly it's the cause of THEIR owes. That's why it's not on my list yet.

Most armies have access to some nice "chewing" weaponry - like all MEQs, if you don't have abundant routes to good AP, throw a bucket of fire at them. Almost every army has access to tons of high firing rate stuff to blast them to bits, and don't forget that power weapon equivalents and double strength hits also kill outright. As such, any fast moving unit with access to such weapons is terrific. Assault squads with a power weapon or two work nice, and Raptors with those lovely meltaguns blast them away good too.

It's just about forcing their weakness - the Phase-out - to happen on your terms. Very easy for Tau, now; Piranhas, Vespids, markerlighting for any form of rail weapon or the delectable Skyray full of seekers; they're very tasty. Eldar... think of yourselves as Preferred Enemy of choice for them. Then hit their troops with everything. Banshees, with their power weapons, will eat them; the ever-so-underused option of missiles, as well as the ever-present Starcannon, will mince them. Warithlords can tear them up close and personal AND at range. The Dark Eldar... well, why you'd play them before their revamp is beyond me anyhow :D

NOTHING is beyond defeat. You just have to check your tools.

BrainFireBob
12-05-2006, 20:43
@ azimath:

"It's not like it has any special immunities to <list>, just melta weapons, etc."

You honestly don't understand?

Eldar can take the Fire Prism, 'tis true. The same Fire Prism that's widely acknowledge as NOT A GOOD TANK FOR ITS COST (ol' 50/50, she be)! So, all Eldar, in a tournament setting or in their GP list, need to plop down points for a unit that's only beneficial/necessary/particularly good against ONE ARMY!?

Lascannons are very expensive, and relatively rare. And since the 'lith is a skimmer, you're effectively forced to shoot it, since CC is bad against it.

Ok, so HOW MANY SHOTS DOES THAT TAKE?

Actually, and this isn't intended as a criticism, how long have you playec 40K. Aside from Dreads, what you had in CC was infantry with str 8, and occasionally access to 2d6 armor pen rolls (meltabomb, chainfist- haywire grenades I think worked out to something similar statistically, which was a nice touch).

Anyway, point is, str 9 was rare and valuable. Str 10 was serious business. Str 8 was the "normal" strength cap. But hey, it was normally str 8+bonus AP, so LRs, Russes, etc., were crackable.

The 'lith takes too much to reliably take down, and frankly, benefits 'crons a bit much. It needs a different mix of rules, a higher cost, or actually, a 0-1/1 per X points restriction.

2 'liths in 2000 points with res orb lords make me wonder why I place my army on the table- I know, not necessarily a normal experience. It's the same problem modern marines have, though. If marines want to beef up a little, they can take assault cannon units. The assault cannon is pretty much way overpowered. It's too much, or just not there.

Sekhmet
12-05-2006, 21:03
Actually, Banshees have a hard time against Necrons. I've wiped out a banshee squad + exarch in CLOSE COMBAT with a squad of Immortals + Lord. You know why? 3 str vs 5 toughness, and equal WS. Fun times.

Bob, ever see 2 Monoliths and a Lord w/ orb in 1500 points? :D

But you're right, Monoliths are very hard to take down as Eldar, you really need to attack it in closecombat, and hope to immobilize it. A seer council would definately take down a Monolith if it ever got that close.

azimaith
12-05-2006, 21:15
@ azimath:

"It's not like it has any special immunities to <list>, just melta weapons, etc."

You honestly don't understand?

Eldar can take the Fire Prism, 'tis true. The same Fire Prism that's widely acknowledge as NOT A GOOD TANK FOR ITS COST (ol' 50/50, she be)! So, all Eldar, in a tournament setting or in their GP list, need to plop down points for a unit that's only beneficial/necessary/particularly good against ONE ARMY!?

You can also take support batteries for even less and get str 10 distort batteries. I take lictors to deal with tau so I can get at crisis suits, yes its one army, and yes i'm paying for a model that will generally get eaten alive by any other army in close combat. Whats your point, if you want to fight necrons effectively you need to make some changes, I can't think of a single case where a str 9 ap2 blast weapons on a nigh unkillable tank chassis is not useful.



Lascannons are very expensive, and relatively rare. And since the 'lith is a skimmer, you're effectively forced to shoot it, since CC is bad against it.

Lascannons are hardly rare in my experience, i've met far too many las/plas squads to believe that.



Ok, so HOW MANY SHOTS DOES THAT TAKE?

Alot, what did you expect, its a floating land raider and in general, when you use tanks you need either alot of them or one extremely hard one. Just because your not guaranteed to slay the monolith in a game doesn't mean its unbalanced, especially when its a result of you only taking bright lances.



Actually, and this isn't intended as a criticism, how long have you playec 40K. Aside from Dreads, what you had in CC was infantry with str 8, and occasionally access to 2d6 armor pen rolls (meltabomb, chainfist- haywire grenades I think worked out to something similar statistically, which was a nice touch).

Wraithlords have str 10, pumped tox carnifexes have str 10, dreadnaughts have strength 10, Killa kans and ork dreadnaughts have strength 10, and obliterators with pfists are str 10. Besides, haywire grenades don't get 2d6 penetration.



Anyway, point is, str 9 was rare and valuable.

Was, isn't now.



Str 10 was serious business.

Not with all the powerfists now.



Str 8 was the "normal" strength cap. But hey, it was normally str 8+bonus AP, so LRs, Russes, etc., were crackable.

But thats not how it is now.



The 'lith takes too much to reliably take down, and frankly, benefits 'crons a bit much. It needs a different mix of rules, a higher cost, or actually, a 0-1/1 per X points restriction.

You shouldn't be capable of relaibly killing it. Thats why necrons pay so much for it. If you take more than one your gutting your necron count. Besides, I can hardly see any way eldar can complain about "unkillable" tanks", when they have nearly unkillable transports. I've spent entire games being unable to touch hammerheads from tau with my tyranids and I still have no reliable way to kill them, but thats not necessarily a balance issue.



2 'liths in 2000 points with res orb lords make me wonder why I place my army on the table- I know, not necessarily a normal experience. It's the same problem modern marines have, though. If marines want to beef up a little, they can take assault cannon units. The assault cannon is pretty much way overpowered. It's too much, or just not there.
With 2000 points of falcons, grav platforms, support batteries, and the like I don't see a reason to worry that much about them.

If its that bad for you put in 2 squads of wraithguard. They are the equivalent of a str 10 weapon vs the monolith and they have 3+ saves and have a bs of 4.

marv335
12-05-2006, 21:28
well i've been playing 40k for 16 years.
i have several armies including IG, SM, Tau, Necrons, Orks, WH, DH.
i know how to play necrons and i know how to beat them.
so to that end.

ignore the da*n thing. go for phase. the more monoliths, the less troops.

if you can't crack it due to your lack of high strength weapons, focus on what you can destroy. focus firepower on the small squads (destroyers, heavy destroyers, wraiths, and to a lesser degree immortals)
take them all down in one turn of shooting and they cannot wbb no matter how many res orbs they have.
once they are gone, all the decent weapons are too.
focus your fire. concentrate.

if you're an ork player assault, outnumber, sweeping advance, destroy.

then enjoy your victory

karamazov
12-05-2006, 21:38
I dont believe the Necrons are invincible (well except in large games of BFG) just nearly invincible. ;)

The Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard and Tau have trouble IMO. I witnessed a 2000 point battle where 3 Monoliths Deployed via deepstrike onto a Imperial Guard Army and many Gauss Flux Arcs later nearly 3/4 of the Guards player army was destroyed and what survived still had to take out the Monoliths. If they survived that they still had to take out 60 warriors and 2 Lords. Suffice to say the Necrons won.

2 Lords, 60 Necrons and 3 monolith's are hard to play against, not unbeatable but damn close to it.

By the way:

In the background of both the Necrons and the Eldar (current Fluff):
the Eldar were created by the Old Ones to combat the C'tan/Necrontyr threat with psychic powers and pyshic weapons. So if anybody should be on equal footing with the Necrontyr it should be the Eldar. Only in the Dragons background are his Necrontyr nigh unstoppable, so the Eldar had to Fashion the Talismans of Vaul to combat them and him. So IMHO the D-cannon is the closest weapon fluff wise to deal with monoliths. It just needs a few more mounting options, Fire Prism type or Wraithlord type.


Sorry if this post jumps around a bit I'm trying to type this while driving:eek:

Ironhand
12-05-2006, 21:39
The Armored Company List was most recently published in the 2004 Chapter Approved. It's available online as a PDF here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/ac%2Darmylist/1/

Danny Internets
12-05-2006, 22:57
They're certainly not invincible - I'm already seeing ways in which my two normal armies, Tau and Nids, would carve them up. The monolith is a nice way to tie up lots of points that could be spent on preventing a Phase roll. Take out the rest and suddenly it's the cause of THEIR owes. That's why it's not on my list yet.

Most armies have access to some nice "chewing" weaponry - like all MEQs, if you don't have abundant routes to good AP, throw a bucket of fire at them. Almost every army has access to tons of high firing rate stuff to blast them to bits, and don't forget that power weapon equivalents and double strength hits also kill outright. As such, any fast moving unit with access to such weapons is terrific. Assault squads with a power weapon or two work nice, and Raptors with those lovely meltaguns blast them away good too.

It's just about forcing their weakness - the Phase-out - to happen on your terms. Very easy for Tau, now; Piranhas, Vespids, markerlighting for any form of rail weapon or the delectable Skyray full of seekers; they're very tasty. Eldar... think of yourselves as Preferred Enemy of choice for them. Then hit their troops with everything. Banshees, with their power weapons, will eat them; the ever-so-underused option of missiles, as well as the ever-present Starcannon, will mince them. Warithlords can tear them up close and personal AND at range. The Dark Eldar... well, why you'd play them before their revamp is beyond me anyhow :D

NOTHING is beyond defeat. You just have to check your tools.

Was this post some kind of clever satire or something? You say that Necrons are not beyond defeat if you have the right tools, and then you go on to name perhaps the most ridiculously ineffective units and tactics as those tools.

Tau and Tyranids are the two armies that Necrons typically have no trouble against. As for Banshees--there's no reason a Wave Serpent should ever make it across the table nevermind park and survive a turn while waiting to let its payload out for an assault. And the Wraithlord, lol, a Necron player would have to be asleep at the wheel to ever let this thing get into nevermind stay in assault.

The way to beat Necrons is generally NOT through phasing them out because under most circumstances this will not be possible. The way to win is to first knock out the Monolith (scores lots of points, cuts the army's mobility and counter-assault measures in half, cuts down on AP3 weaponry) and then take out all Destroyers and Immortals. Shooting into the Warrior firebase with a res orb backed up by the Monolith for WBB rerolls is ludicrous and will not score you points nevermind get a phase out. Just like any other army you want to take out the threatening and big price ticket units first--fortunately, in the Necron list, these go hand in hand, making target prioritizing fairly intuitive.

It's ironic that the Phase Out rule, intended to be a weakness, misleads players into foolishly focusing on it in order to win, usually causing them to lose instead.

Ivan Stupidor
13-05-2006, 02:01
If it gave them the Preferred Enemy special rule, it would say so. They are in hand-to-hand-combat, and they now hit on a 3+ instead of whatever they would normally hit on. I have many times seen witches with haywire grenades and the goblet go haywire on a dreadnaught - also hit only on 6s with grenades - and blow it to smitherines because they now hit on 3+.


Out of curiosity, do you also play that those Wyches only hit non-moving or immobilized vehicles on a 3+, as well?

boogle
13-05-2006, 02:06
They're not imbalanced, they're just boring

Tom - Heretic
13-05-2006, 02:23
A few weeks ago I played my first ever game against necrons and was very impressed by their uniqueness. It was a balanced list, if a little troop heavy, but had wraiths, immortals and heavy destroyers.

I was using my usual guard tourney list, which, I must say, is pretty dreadful.
However, it's the best game I've had in ages. Lots of fun was had - partly to do with my ogryns (usually useless) having some wraiths bounce off them and running them down, then following up by taking down a destroyer lord and a unit of warriors =D. So yeah, I won by luck and caused phase out, but I'm now convinced that they can be just as fun as any other army out there to play against in a friendly atmosphere.

Morgrad
13-05-2006, 04:01
Out of curiosity, do you also play that those Wyches only hit non-moving or immobilized vehicles on a 3+, as well?

As a matter of fact, yes - both sides of a combat that involves the goblet of spite hit on 3+ instead of whatever they'd normally hit on - so that's how we've always played it.

BrainFireBob
13-05-2006, 05:42
I seem to have mis-stated my point.

My problem with the 'lith is that it was made generally too hard, but if you crack it, you go up too much against the 'crons.

The main bug I see in 4th is summed by both Monolith and assault cannon: They're too good when you use them, but it can be hard to play without them (I know there's quite a few items here, such as your local group). And when you lose them, the points sink can hurt. Lots. With the piles of pain. That's why I never liked 1000 point or less games- one side gets real lucky in turn one, and it can be basically all over. If I only can squeeze in a couple of games, I'd like each side to have some room to take reverses and still come back. Makes it more interesting.

azimath: Powerfists are str 8, period. EDIT: Except on Oblits. What the hey were the designers thinking? Only Dreadnought CC weapons were strength 10, and Nid Monstrous Creatures kitted correctly.

Anyone playing, say, Chaos and telling you they've a strength 10 powerfist doesn't know their own rules. One of the few things cleared via Errata, a powerfist doubles strength BEFORE any other strength enhancement applies. Unless they're furious charging and have daemonic strength, that fist can't hit strength 10 (And WHY did they let those stack? That just doesn't make sense).

Zzarchov
13-05-2006, 06:09
Ork warboss with a powerklaw are S10.

Fiver
13-05-2006, 07:50
In my own observation (not having played necrons, but having watched a few games and read the codex) Necrons are not broken from a game-play perspective. Yeah they are nasty, and could probably use a tweak or two on a couple of their units, but there are plenty of quite characterful and sweet units. My only complaint is that even in quite sane armylists there seem to be a few too many of the blighters on the board for my taste, given how hard they are.

From the perspective of a games designer however, the necrons are problematic, if not broken. Much of their uniqueness comes from rules which violate the established order of play. The WBB rule as it stands is a departure from the established order or play, and rather problematic for that reason. I can see why they wrote it, but I'm not sure they thought it through from a design perspective. Also the monolith represents a substantial departure from the established vehicle rules. From a designers angle, it needs to either be quite a bit pricier, a good bit less nasty, or somewhat easier to kill - doesn't matter which.

Other that these observations I quite like the fluff and feel of the army, it is very cinematic and looks and feels awesome on the table top.

Just my random musings.
Yours, Fiver.

Ivan Stupidor
14-05-2006, 01:52
As a matter of fact, yes - both sides of a combat that involves the goblet of spite hit on 3+ instead of whatever they'd normally hit on - so that's how we've always played it.

Good on you. I've seen a few cases where people "forget" little things like that.

Colonel_Kreitz
14-05-2006, 01:55
I have to agre with a lot of you. They really need something to mix up their tactics.

Having one, inflexible troops choice doesn't seem like a problem until you realize that loss of said troops will result in an auto-loss. Thus, you have to take tons of Warriors that don't do much other than march straight into action...

SmellyOrc
14-05-2006, 02:07
Our local necron players all agree that they need a "different" warrior / phase-out set-up just to make the necron smore interesting to play. The 2 lists our local players take are: 4 squads of warriors, 2 lords with res-orbs, 1 squad destroyers OR 3 squads of warriors, 2 lords with res-orbs, 1 monolith, 1 squad of destroyers. Not alot of variety, and if we play a smaller point game the destroyers come out, not the warriors. Its not that they don't own C'tan and parriahs and wraiths and immortals, its that the Necron rules do not reward you for taking them, and this makes all Necron armies end up being the same. Same = boring.

Seth the Dark
14-05-2006, 02:36
I fight Necrons on a regular basis and my friend usually uses all Necron units so that he has a relatively high phase out limit but he has quite a few models already! He evens outnumbers my Eldar force!

My one tip would be to pour as much fire power as you can into one squad so that they can't get back up. Meaning if you wipe out all of the Warriors near the Res Orb Necron Lord then they can't get back up as per the FAQ. Also ignore the Monolith unless you have lascannons or other anti-tank weapons which would be wasted on rank and file troops.

AgentZero
14-05-2006, 07:28
Hi,guys

In my gaming community a necron is a rarity.....why?? Because nobody wants to play against them!!!


Your gaming community stinks,basically.
Necron aren't broken.Boring, but not broken.
If you're in a group that refuses to play a basic race then there's a problem.
I could understand not playing cheese lists...that's one thing.
But to be AFRAID to play a race because of insane misconceptions.........that's just unbelievable.
Is the average age of your group 10?

Colonel_Kreitz
14-05-2006, 08:20
Your gaming community stinks,basically.
Necron aren't broken.Boring, but not broken.
If you're in a group that refuses to play a basic race then there's a problem.
I could understand not playing cheese lists...that's one thing.
But to be AFRAID to play a race because of insane misconceptions.........that's just unbelievable.
Is the average age of your group 10?

Well, I think that's rather harshly worded but...well, suffice it to say, the Necrons really are quite the opposite of broken and this post is fundamentally correct. In fact, if you know what you're doing (kill all the warriors) then it's actually a very straightforward affair.

In fact, as I noted in my prior post, it's often a fantastically boring affair for both sides, because for the Necron player, it's largely an excercise in marching forward at low speed and for the other player, it's either just target practice, working against the clock, or a game of how quickly the Necron warriors can be killed.

I should note that there is a Necron player in our area and, to the best of my knowledge, he has never won with his Necrons. The best he's gotten has been several draws (one of them against me). Notably, he does just fine with Eldar.

Ubik_Lives
14-05-2006, 08:28
I actually sold my Necron army because of a similar problem. I just won far too may games far too easily with them.

My previous army was the Tau, and I had a slightly better than average win/loss ratio with them. So I wasn't too bad, but not too good either. Then I got the Necrons, and boy did that change. Once you weeded out dud units like Pariahs, Tomb Spyders, and Wraiths, you were left with a pretty hardcore bunch of units. The basic warrior could do anything you wanted, and was pretty darn survivable. Veil of Darkness with Immortals was feral, and Destroyers could pummel any infantry squad or vehicle to dust. Scarabs were great units to just tie up enemy squads, and could even drag a few under with sheer numbers. It was crazy.

So people stopped wanting to play them. And it's not much fun playing people who'd rather not being doing it. So in the end they had to go. Now I seem to be in punishment for my Necron sins, as my Kroot Mercs and my Tau IG forces aren't doing all that well. Still, I can understand if some people don't want to face Necrons, as to be honest, after what I've seen, I personally wouldn't want to fight them either.

Sekhmet
14-05-2006, 08:39
I'd love to fight against Necrons as DH or Blood Angels. I'd have a blast killing them all. Maybe because I actually know how to beat them, as any other Necron player should also know.

The reason Necrons seem so good is that they're so different than any other race in terms of units and strategies that if you're caught unprepared it's possible to be totally annihilated by them. On the flip side, if you know what you're doing, it's not very hard to wipe them out. Certain armies do better against Necrons than others. Any army with saves worse than 3+ don't cut it. Not at all. Imp guard can take their 3 tanks and still get owned. Tau can try the same. Eldar are barely better. Marines are very tough for Necrons...

SON OF LION
14-05-2006, 09:22
No offense to anyone but all I hear is a lot of whining about how unfair/broken the Necrons are and especially the monolith.

I'll give you a typical list that I use and is actually effective.
Lord with res orb and veil
10 Immortals
10 flayed ones
three squads of 12 warriors
2 wraiths
6 scarabs
3 destroyers
2 tomb spyders
two units of 1 heavy destroyer

This is 1850pts (tourney size). I use the flying stuff to turbo boost and gain objectives and the lord and a squad to terrorise the enemy while the rest advance. This is a solid list and I've done very well at tournaments with it.

However here are a couple of questions that the naysayers may be able to help me with.
How can I stop terminators/Nobs in mega armour/Tyranid mega beastie with 2+ armour save/wraithlords?
Lacking much in the way of AP2 or power weapons, they are very problematic and there is not much I can change with the list that will solve this.
How can I stop 'feel no pain'?
I don't have much that can stop this as my guns aren't powerful enough and close combat won't help me either. Death company with jump packs are a prime example.
A terminator army, a speed freak army with a warboss and nobz mob in mega armour and a nid army with two tyrants and 6 carnifexes are all unstoppable for me.

Revlid
14-05-2006, 09:36
No offense, but most of your questions seem to revolve around: "I can't kill [insert here] very easily. No army can kill [insert here] easily, including Necrons. Plainly Necrons are underpowered, and should be upgraded so that they can kill [insert here] easily."

SON OF LION
14-05-2006, 09:45
Sadly yes, I agree with you. That is what the questions are. The point here is that there is very little in the army book that will allow me to handle these types of units. I don't have options for plasma, powerfists or even a decent assault unit (bad experiences with the flayed ones who I still persist with). About the only thing I'd liked upgraded are them and that is both my opinion and my opponents.
What I'm trying to say is that Necrons also have problems. Not every army is based on two lords, lots of grunts and monoliths but many of the people here seem to complain that they are and disregard the whole army as a result which is a shame. I'm just trying to put the Necron army into perspective by offering a viewpoint from their side of the table.

Aliasara
14-05-2006, 11:18
Necrons are neither broken nor boring. If you want to really make a "take all comers" list, they need some experience to play with.
The Necron list actually HAS a lot of diversity but really depends on sinergy to make workable. Many players disregard the pariahs as utterly useless, for example. I do not thinks so, if you combine them with the deciever, a fear lord and Flayed ones, for example they become extremely good. There are many more examples where you can field armies that really tear it up and still field a variety of troop choices, even in Close Combat. It takes good playing and careful planning and setup to be effective, though.
Necrons are certainly a very good army, but still far from broken. There are many ways to beat them.

Fiver
14-05-2006, 13:51
If your army is varied and interesting to play with and against Son Of Lion, then you have my respect and thanks. I know that there are players like yourself about who make their armies by what looks/feels/sounds cool and not by what is merely effective, I have at times been one of them. The problem for us who are leery of that 2lrd/warriors combo is that so many people actually field armies like that - I've even seen them at the national tourney in Auckland at least once.

As to your thoughts regarding your unbreakables: Play like a guardsman when it comes to basic troops - semi-defensive firetraps work wonders. Maneuver so that their ubernasty engages a sacrificial lamb, then own that nasty with rapidfire when they break your offering. I warn you though, this tactic takes guts, you must accept losses for it to work well, and I know that this is harder for a necron player than for others. If it is any consolation, I use SW with something like this and it works well. I don't often win, but rarely does my opponent have much left either.

Sekhmet
14-05-2006, 18:51
The only problem is that Necron squads don't have access to the las/plas/powerfist options that marines have, or even guardsmen. The extreme lack of AP2 or better weaponry is saddening. In fact, only the Lord, Pariahs (which cannot ever move more than 6" except when charging), Heavy Destroyers, Tomb spiders and the Monolith.
In comparison, every single unit in a Marine army except Scout Bikes, Rhinos and Whirlwinds, can have AP2 weapons or power fists... out of 27 total units.

Danny Internets
14-05-2006, 19:39
No offense to anyone but all I hear is a lot of whining about how unfair/broken the Necrons are and especially the monolith.

I'll give you a typical list that I use and is actually effective.
Lord with res orb and veil
10 Immortals
10 flayed ones
three squads of 12 warriors
2 wraiths
6 scarabs
3 destroyers
2 tomb spyders
two units of 1 heavy destroyer

This is 1850pts (tourney size). I use the flying stuff to turbo boost and gain objectives and the lord and a squad to terrorise the enemy while the rest advance. This is a solid list and I've done very well at tournaments with it.

However here are a couple of questions that the naysayers may be able to help me with.
How can I stop terminators/Nobs in mega armour/Tyranid mega beastie with 2+ armour save/wraithlords?
Lacking much in the way of AP2 or power weapons, they are very problematic and there is not much I can change with the list that will solve this.
How can I stop 'feel no pain'?
I don't have much that can stop this as my guns aren't powerful enough and close combat won't help me either. Death company with jump packs are a prime example.
A terminator army, a speed freak army with a warboss and nobz mob in mega armour and a nid army with two tyrants and 6 carnifexes are all unstoppable for me.

You're having a problem dealing with 2+ save units and wraithlords because you're spending way too many points on close combat units that are simply ineffective. Necrons are not an assault army and trying to make them one will always be a bad idea. The reason for this is that the only units even remotely decent in assault (pariahs) have no access whatsoever to any form of delivery system. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, and Tomb Spyders are not going to win assault for you except against the most mediocre of troops.

Most Necron lists can very easily avoid 2+ save troops like Terminators, mega armor Nobs, and Wraithlords because they move so slowly (granted, Speed Freakz can move quickly, but if you can't stop an AV10 vehicle from getting across the board with Necrons then you have much bigger concerns). Even if you find Obliterators or Terminators deepstriking near you and being lucky enough not to scatter, you can always back up and ensure that only a scant few models are engaged. WHen he kills them, you teleport out and nail them with a ridiculous amount of fire power, forcing enough saves to take them out, or at the very least whittle them down. Necrons are successful when they AVOID close combat and mass fire on units, not when they rush head-first into powerfists and monstrous creatures.

SON OF LION
15-05-2006, 01:17
The problem for us who are leery of that 2lrd/warriors combo is that so many people actually field armies like that - I've even seen them at the national tourney in Auckland at least once.

As to your thoughts regarding your unbreakables: Play like a guardsman when it comes to basic troops - semi-defensive firetraps work wonders.

Funny you should mention these two points. I actually used my necrons in Fields of Blood 2005 in Auckland. You might have seen them, they were the ones painted in metallic blue. The only problems I really had at the tourney were with death company, full sized nobz mob in a battlewagon and eight tyranid monstrous creatures, 5 with a 2+ save.

As to your strategy that is exactly what I did last time, bait and flee with the veil of darkness and then just unload with massed firepower on a single unit.

Danny Internets - As I stated in the post following that one, I was merely using raising a point. I will always struggle with that kind of stuff. I have useless assault units (flayed ones of bouncing, wraiths of butter and tomb spyder of pondering), I accept that. But I also accept that they are cool models and that for me outweighs anything else. I also refuse to resort to using a C'Tan or falling back on a monolith or two. Just not my style. In fact I only use a res orb and veil because without a monolith I can't move very much and if I ever use the veil to move into an attacking position, half the enemy army opens up on that unit and I really need the orb then. And yeah, I love massed firepower. Much like when I play my Orks, I just love picking up 24 dice and saying 'three units rapid firing means I roll this lot two more times'.

Danny Internets
15-05-2006, 01:35
If you recognize that you're taking a weak and ineffective list, why are you asking how to deal with units like terminators, mega armor nobs, and hive tyrants? It seems like you've already resolved yourself to letting these things trounce you.

SON OF LION
15-05-2006, 01:44
Danny Internets - As I stated in the post following that one, I was merely using raising a point. I will always struggle with that kind of stuff. I have useless assault units (flayed ones of bouncing, wraiths of butter and tomb spyder of pondering), I accept that. But I also accept that they are cool models and that for me outweighs anything else.

I've never quoted myself before.:p

I don't consider my list weak and ineffective. Against those things, yes they struggle a bit, but against eveything else they don't. Not at all. Besides, cool models outweighs anything else.

zealousheretic
15-05-2006, 02:00
We really need to agree on different versions of "effective."

There's effective, as in "this list will do well in my local gaming group." And there's also effective, as in "I plan to take this list to a tournament and place really high with it."


Wanting to improve your list and wanting to avoid playing a cookie-cutter army just like everyone else are not mutually exclusive options. I can respect SON OF LION's attitude; I approach my Tyranids in a similar way. Effectiveness is a concern, but I use some units because I happen to like them.

Aliasara
15-05-2006, 07:15
Well, well, well...

Do not complain about armor of 2+ with that list. Your only hope is to pour enough fire into them, so that they eventually fail saves and whittle them down.
You could also exclusively focus your heavy destroyers on the AP2 ppl, maybe with a rapid fire volley to mop up the rest, your lord engaging in HtH etc. I think those would be your best chances. I usually let my C'tan deal with the uber feel no pain or AP 2 troops or my pariahs.
Why are you so averse of fielding a C'tan? Or a monolith, for that matter? Do you think they are beardy? Or do you view them as a point sink?

cailus
15-05-2006, 07:40
My brother's Word Bearer army eats Necrons for breakfast.

My Tau on the other hand have no been so lucky but I have not yet tried the new Tau codex against them...

The_Outsider
15-05-2006, 12:19
Yeah CC armies can be a problem, usually the only way to get out of CC is to port out with the 'lith or use a VoD.

People claim thats unbalanced because necron can run from combat and a lot of people's strategies rely on pinning units down in combat.

Monolith/VoD out of CC and then rapid fire the enemy to death, powerful as such, opponents claim its unbalanced.

I have had people say to me that WBB is 'cheesey' or whatever, it mostly because people play to necron's strengths (in a gun fight the necrons will beat nearly anything).

Necrons are rather balanced as its hard to powergame (PO stops that) so if an opponents claims they are unbalanced, they need to change their tactics.

ashc
15-05-2006, 12:24
I dont think the 'crons are unbalanced; if anything they need some more viable options, i just dont see anyone taking much more than immortals, destroyers, and monoliths (obv and warriors, but hey there isnt alot that can be done about that one. ;))

What bothers me more with Necrons is just how boring they are, they seem the most lifeless (no pun intended), and more importantly, most characterless army out there, and for that reason alone i could never get into them.

Ash

The_Outsider
15-05-2006, 12:27
Personally thats part of their charm for me, the fact that they are 'boring' compared to most other armies makes them even cooler in my eyes.

Also the army list works well and is in no way broken (in a cheesy way).

Fiver
15-05-2006, 14:10
Sekmet: I think you misunderstand what I meant by defensive fire-traps. This move relies on your basic infantry weapons, and lots of them. It is a numbers game, and forcing your opponent to roll lots of saves means he will fail all of them eventually. If you can force bulk rolls, always do - the statistics start to work in your favour.
As an aside, unless GW really screwed necrons since I last checked, I thought their basic weapon was pretty sweet. Especially the part that lets you flay vehicles - I always winced at the thought of that.

Son of Lion: Since I haven't played but twice in three years, I doubt I've seen your army - I would like to though. The National Tourney I was at was in 2001 or 2002 I think. Back when Necrons were still working out of the back of the main rules book I think.

ashc
15-05-2006, 14:14
Personally thats part of their charm for me, the fact that they are 'boring' compared to most other armies makes them even cooler in my eyes.

And that's where personal preference comes in i guess.

Ash

The_Outsider
15-05-2006, 14:17
Yeah, if we were all the same the game would be pointless.

ashc
15-05-2006, 15:14
Yeah, if we were all the same the game would be pointless.

And on that note we tie in to the ongoing thread about people fielding cookie-cutter lists :rolleyes:

Ash

SON OF LION
16-05-2006, 01:16
I usually let my C'tan deal with the uber feel no pain or AP 2 troops or my pariahs.
Why are you so averse of fielding a C'tan? Or a monolith, for that matter? Do you think they are beardy? Or do you view them as a point sink?

Several reasons actually. I avoid fielding the C'Tan because it is unfluffy (for me) to have one of only two awaken C'Tan in the galaxy fighting in a little skirmish game. To see one in a game of Epic might be feasible but I can't imagine why one of them would be in 40K. Considering how they change the phase out numbers so much I wouldn't consider them beardy, but all the little kids use them and that is really putting off for me. And the last reason is that my own monolith has been sitting unassembled, unpainted in a box for the better half of three years due to the success of my current list. Like many gamers, I tend to put off doing stuff and having an effective army doesn't help in that regard.

DV8
16-05-2006, 02:51
As a Necron player I'm going to put my foot forward. They are not broken. Period. They are not, however, push-overs either. The Necron list itself (and some units more than others) is fairly powerful, however, as an army, I think it balances itself out. Granted it can be broken by clever/tricksy unit selection (as can most other armies out there), but overall, it is a balanced force.

I've read through all the posts prior to mine and I notice much grudgery against the Monolith. Fair enough. I agree with you. It's an obscene tank and not one I would personally field. And yes, some armies more than others have a hard time dealing with it. However, that said, there are always work arounds.

Target selection is a must. Focus on the more powerful, but smaller units, of Immortals and Destroyers. Take them all down in a single turn and you deny them your WBB rolls. Then you can focus on the rest of the army which, if it moves, is limited to a 12" range.

Combat armies, I think (especially the horde-based ones) have a field day with Necrons. Take down enough, force a low Leadership break test with outnumbering and below half, and sweep into them, wiping them all out and denying a WBB roll. Chaos with Daemon Princes are almost a guaranteed win against Necrons because they simply can't stop them in time. Heaven forbid you play a Khorne list, or a Daemonbomb army.

Shooting armies will have a harder time, methinks, simply because Necrons are more resilient and can potentially put out more firepower than you can, at range and while moving. But also keep in mind that these are multi-shot weapons. Each Immortal or Destroyer you take out is 2/3 shots that he's lost. When he starts losing 2 or 3 models here and there, his firepower will rapidly start to diminish. If you can't bring enough AP3 or better firepower to bear, then just bring tons of firepower. Make him take enough saves and WBB rolls that he'll begin to feel the hurting.

That said, however, as I mentioned in the beginning of my post, Necrons are not broken. They simply take adjusting to as they are not like your typical army.


DV8

Ironhand
16-05-2006, 02:55
DV8 has pretty much hit it right on the head. The Necrons are perfectly fine, you just have to think when dealing with them.