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Lord Dan
08-09-2012, 23:28
Hey gents! I'm going to be running a friend's WE army at a tournament this month. I've put in two games with this list and won both times, however I wanted to see if I'm missing anything obvious:

Treeman Ancient, Annoyance of Netlings - 350
Spellweaver, Lv. 4, Channeling Staff - 265

Noble, BSB, HoDA - 120

11 Glade Guard, Musician - 138
11 Glade Guard, Musician - 138
11 Glade Guard, Musician - 138
11 Glade Guard, Musician - 138

8 Dryads - 96
8 Dryads - 96
8 Dryads - 96

6 Treekin - 390
6 Treekin - 390

6 Waywatchers - 144

2499

I run Lore of Life, which I use primarily for the lore attribute on the two blocks of treekin and the treeman.

Bring_Back_Chaos_Dwarfs?
08-09-2012, 23:49
Looks pretty solid, but why no eagles? Especially if you're looking to set up fights for the tree units, they would help redirect and guard flanks (sorry, you most likely already know that). Anyways, it's the only thing I see missing. But hey, if the list works well without them (you said you won two games), cool.

Lord Dan
08-09-2012, 23:59
Hey man, thanks for the response! The truth is I don't know what I'd drop for them. Currently I use Dryads for re-directing roles, which they do to great effect while also being tactically flexible enough for other jobs if I don't need them to just get in the way. The only thing I could really drop from the list is a unit of dryads, and I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it.

Bring_Back_Chaos_Dwarfs?
09-09-2012, 00:39
Sure, no prob. Hmm, dropping one unit of dryads would only net you one eagle, so that's not worth it. You could get two if you'd drop one unit of dryads and a waywatcher. That is something I'd definitely consider. I've been watching a lot (ok, all) of tmrichards battle reports with wood elves and they have been very informative. I was burned out on Wood Elves in 8th, but his videos are definitely getting me motivated to pick them up again. I'm very intrigued to see how all those tree units do. What did you play against in those two games and how did all those trees do (aside from producing an "oh holy CRAP response from your opponent)? (well I'm sure they hulk smashed many things).

Lord Dan
09-09-2012, 01:22
Sure, no prob. Hmm, dropping one unit of dryads would only net you one eagle, so that's not worth it. You could get two if you'd drop one unit of dryads and a waywatcher. That is something I'd definitely consider. I've been watching a lot (ok, all) of tmrichards battle reports with wood elves and they have been very informative. I was burned out on Wood Elves in 8th, but his videos are definitely getting me motivated to pick them up again. I'm very intrigued to see how all those tree units do. What did you play against in those two games and how did all those trees do (aside from producing an "oh holy CRAP response from your opponent)? (well I'm sure they hulk smashed many things).

I'll post up some battle reports after the tournaments to let you know how they go. I've technically played 3 games with the list, though one of them was with a slightly different composition (a big block of 8 treekin instead, and another unit of glade guard). 2 were against a TK player, and one against DE.

WE in this edition are interesting to play with, because your opponents sort of panic. While most gamers have a good idea of how to deal with the standard 2 horde + goodies lists, when they see a bunch of deployments of low-model count units they get ab it overwhelmed. The key, then, is overwhelming aggression, so that your opponent doesn't have time to think and sort things out. All in all WE aren't bad in 8th (I'd rank them above Brets and Beastmen, for sure), they're just particularly unforgiving if things go wrong.

tmarichards
09-09-2012, 04:05
Biggest issue with list I think is that it doesn't really have anything to go out and kill stuff- you don't have enough Glade Guard to shoot people off the board, and Treekin are at best situational (personally I consider them a liability).

I'd drop 1 unit of Dryads to get the Eagles in, I've trialled Dryads from 4 units down to 3 down to 2, and I find 2 does pretty much everything you need them to.

Why no Dispel Scroll on the level 4?

Presumably the tournament has been comped to allow the BSB to keep his bow?

You've also got nowt to stop a hydra/abomb running straight over you (they RUIN Treekin), so I'd drop all the gg down to 10 except for one which then takes the dropouts to become a bit bigger (16 is about the peak of efficiency imo), gets a standard bearer and a musician.

Another unit of Glade Guard would be nice. Dropping 2 Treekin from each unit would free up the points to do so as well as getting another 5-6 Waywatchers in. Main reason I'd go with 4 Treekin over anything else is that they still kill around the same amount as 4s (you can magic them up as well if you need them to pull more wait), but if (when) they get tagged by something they cannot fight (no musician and ItP makes it pretty hard to keep them both in the game and out of trouble) you lose a lot less points.

tmarichards
09-09-2012, 04:07
Also, interesting that you'd rank them above Beastmen or Brets. In my opinion "the" Beastmen build is a very solid list and there are some very underused and underdeveloped strategies, and when used correctly Bretonnians are absolutely a top tier army.

AM1640
12-09-2012, 14:49
I challenge you to Blood and Glory. I win. Why are there no standards in your list?
I would drop the waywatchers and replace with eagles. 6 strength 3 shots are useless against most things, sure they have killing blow at short range or as I like to call it charge range. I have tried the massed GG bowfire army and just watched as opponents march across the table without a care in the world. 60 shots, long range 40 hits, needing 4 to wound 15 to 20 wounds, 5 saved means 700 points of GG just killed 100 points of basic infantry without causing any real damage.

tmarichards
13-09-2012, 01:41
I think you have overlooked a few things.

First of all, this is a tournament list (this is an assumption based on the title), which means Lord Dan knows in advance whether he will be playing scenarios or not- I suspect not due the the problem you highlighted. Secondly, because it is a tournament, his opponents are unlikely to have the luxury of picking what scenario to play vs him.

15" is certainly within charge range for most of the game (albeit a long charge), but with M10 and Skirmish they have the luxury of not having to sit in front of people in their arc of sight- and if they do, they are able to flee. Waywatchers also add something that nothing else in the list can do, which is threaten 1+ save mounted characters- Scar-Vets, Dark Elf Pegasus riders or Disco Stu and his chums. They are expensive and frail, but when used correctly they are very useful more often than you give them credit for.

You are also underestimating the mass Glade Guard fire- presumably you've used it correctly when you tried it? Because, the majority of WE players do not. They either do not move forwards for the first couple of turns (gets into S4 range quicker and gives more room to flee into later on), or they stay too close to the board edge and flee off the board or they do not play the fleeing game adequately, or they shoot the wrong target- apply that same amount of shooting above (but be sure to use the correct long range to hit value of 4+ not 3+) to an expensive and small elite unit like White Lions. With 2 volleys at long range, and 2 at short, you kill something in the region of 45. That's with no risk to yourself.

Whilst it is quite a rock paper scissors style, when played well (and this will come largely with experience), it is nonetheless very potent. If you still have any doubts about how well it can work (or how it could be played) why not watch a couple of my battle reports (long in my signature)? I've had some good feedback on them, and I do moderately well at tournaments with the mass Glade Guard shooty avoidance style I have described above.

Lord Dan
13-09-2012, 02:35
Biggest issue with list I think is that it doesn't really have anything to go out and kill stuff- you don't have enough Glade Guard to shoot people off the board, and Treekin are at best situational (personally I consider them a liability).
I've had great success with treekin, which is probably why I put so much stock in them. Between them and the treeman ancient, who has yet to die, I have plenty of hitting power, it's just all concentrated in a handful of units.



I'd drop 1 unit of Dryads to get the Eagles in, I've trialled Dryads from 4 units down to 3 down to 2, and I find 2 does pretty much everything you need them to.
I'll give it a go, then.



Why no Dispel Scroll on the level 4?
I couldn't afford it.



Presumably the tournament has been comped to allow the BSB to keep his bow?
Good catch- I just checked and it hasn't. I'll drop the HoDA and give the Lv. 4 a scroll, instead.



You've also got nowt to stop a hydra/abomb running straight over you (they RUIN Treekin), so I'd drop all the gg down to 10 except for one which then takes the dropouts to become a bit bigger (16 is about the peak of efficiency imo), gets a standard bearer and a musician.
Done. I can do that with the leftover points from the HoDA and by dropping a GG.



Another unit of Glade Guard would be nice. Dropping 2 Treekin from each unit would free up the points to do so as well as getting another 5-6 Waywatchers in. Main reason I'd go with 4 Treekin over anything else is that they still kill around the same amount as 4s (you can magic them up as well if you need them to pull more wait), but if (when) they get tagged by something they cannot fight (no musician and ItP makes it pretty hard to keep them both in the game and out of trouble) you lose a lot less points.
I've tried a big unit of 8, two units of 6, and a totally different list that had a single unit of 4. In the case of the latter the unit just wasn't big enough to do anything effectual, so I'm a little hesitant to drop them in favor of more bows; particularly since in this list the glade guard are being used pretty much exclusively to soften up targets for the treekin.



Also, interesting that you'd rank them above Beastmen or Brets. In my opinion "the" Beastmen build is a very solid list and there are some very underused and underdeveloped strategies, and when used correctly Bretonnians are absolutely a top tier army.
Eh, perhaps I've yet to run into a competent Bretonnian player. Most of them are still holding to the 7th edition "charge one bus into a fully ranked unit to break them!" strategy which, with steadfast in this edition, inevitably leads to ruin. Additionally the fact that Beastman only have one solid build is the reason I rank them below the slightly-more-flexible Wood Elves.



I challenge you to Blood and Glory. I win. Why are there no standards in your list?

this is a tournament list (this is an assumption based on the title), which means Lord Dan knows in advance whether he will be playing scenarios or not- I suspect not due the the problem you highlighted.
As Tom stated, it will be 3 games of battleline.


[QUOTE=AM1640;6418041]I would drop the waywatchers and replace with eagles. 6 strength 3 shots are useless against most things, sure they have killing blow at short range or as I like to call it charge range.

15" is certainly within charge range for most of the game (albeit a long charge), but with M10 and Skirmish they have the luxury of not having to sit in front of people in their arc of sight- and if they do, they are able to flee. Waywatchers also add something that nothing else in the list can do, which is threaten 1+ save mounted characters- Scar-Vets, Dark Elf Pegasus riders or Disco Stu and his chums. They are expensive and frail, but when used correctly they are very useful more often than you give them credit for.
I agree with Tom on all counts here. I've also found that they're quite effective at hunting down war machines if there aren't any valid targets for some killing blow shots.

I will say that the mass-GG shooting approach isn't something I stray towards, primarily because I can't get a handle on it. As Tom pointed out, though, it's very viable, and I'd second a recommendation to check out his Batreps to see how he's doing it. Also he has a British accent, which I find bizarrely soothing while painting.

Here's the revised edition of the list:

Treeman Ancient, Annoyance of Netlings - 350
Spellweaver, Lv. 4, Scroll - 275

Noble, BSB - 90

13 Glade Guard, Standard, Musician, Lord's Bowmen, BoEF - 190
10 Glade Guard, Musician - 126
10 Glade Guard, Musician - 126
10 Glade Guard, Musician - 126
8 Dryads - 96
8 Dryads - 96

6 Treekin - 390
6 Treekin - 390

6 Waywatchers - 144
Eagle - 50
Eagle - 50

Comes out to 2499. What are your thoughts now?

Lord Dan
21-09-2012, 00:02
Well, I did some converting over the weekend and ended up making a bunch of trees from wood. Yeah. Pictures are in the "everything" plog in my signature.

New list, which I really can't change but wanted to post for opinions on what to look out for in the tournament on Saturday:

Treeman Ancient, Annoyance of Netlings
Lv. 4 Spellweaver, Scroll

Noble, Alter Kindred, GW, Stone of Rebirth, Charmed Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness

10 Glade Guard, Musician
10 Glade Guard, Musician
10 Glade Guard, Musician

8 Dryads
8 Dryads
8 Dryads

6 Treekin
6 Treekin

Treeman

I know it's a bit of tree overload, however I got a test game in against one of the Dwarf players who will be at the tournament and got absolutely crushed. The treekin performed beautifully, however I didn't have anything fast enough to get to his warmachines. The alter noble should solve that problem, as he'll likely survive a cannonball with the charmed shield, and will even likely survive the second one if it only causes two wounds (triggering the stone, which per the FAQ wouldn't work if he were killed outright). Frankly I found that the previous list had too many glade guard, primarily because I'm using them to soften up units before my tree armada crashes into the enemy line. We'll see how it goes. I'll post up a battle report Sunday morning.

tmarichards
21-09-2012, 10:09
BSB pl0x :(