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Sh4d0w
16-09-2012, 06:45
I don't know where I heard this but I remember someone telling me that Shadowblade cannot hide in warmachines anymore, this happened to my dwarfs today. It says he can in the Dark Elf rulebook so I don't know :/

Iraf
16-09-2012, 07:08
He can still join warmachines. Nothing in the FAQ/Errata section has changed that.

Kalandros
16-09-2012, 08:05
If its not been errata'd/faq'd, he still can - you lose one war machine almost instantly :D

But its quite the trade-off... 300 pts Shadowblade.. :/ if you spread your machines around, he can get one and not charge another too fast.

Sh4d0w
16-09-2012, 09:59
Ahh ok im wrong then, I feel that the 155pt grudge thrower with str5 and re-roll artillery is a fair trade off haha

The Low King
16-09-2012, 12:51
I would disagree.

I believe the rule goes as follows: "Lastly, he may attempt to hide inside the enemy army! After your opponent has deployed, secretly write down which enemy unit Shadowblade has attempted to infiltrate. This must be an infantry unit or war machine crew whose models are on a 20mm or 25mm square bases. Shadowblade cannot join a unit of flyers."

Technicaly warmachine crew are no longer seperate models, the crew are just wound counters (unlike 7th edition). It is the Warmachine itself that is the model, and it isnt a valid target for him to join. In fact, i (and lots of dwarf players) model their warmachines on single bases now, meaning he definatly cant join it.

theunwantedbeing
16-09-2012, 13:14
Technicaly warmachine crew are no longer seperate models, the crew are just wound counters (unlike 7th edition). It is the Warmachine itself that is the model, and it isnt a valid target for him to join. In fact, i (and lots of dwarf players) model their warmachines on single bases now, meaning he definatly cant join it.

He can hide in war machine crew.
The crew are still models, on 20mm or 25mm bases (or at least they should be for dwarves as that's what the models come with).

So RAW he can hide in such things, although not the anvil of doom unless it's Thoreks it seems going off the models.

The Low King
16-09-2012, 13:32
Page 108, crew:

"...We ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the warmachine itself as the extent of the unit"
and
"The crew cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected seperately from their warmachine"
and
"The crew are used only to indicate the remaining number of wounds and the number of attacks the warmachine can make in close combat"

So, he can hide in a unit, the warmachine is the extent of the unit, the crew are not. The crew do not exist for anything but Aesthetics and to count wounds/attack.

theunwantedbeing
16-09-2012, 14:00
Are the war machine crew on 20mm or 25mm bases?
Then he can hide in them as per his own rules.

Armybook trumps rulebook.

Note the Anvil of Doom model doesn't actually have any crew on 20mm or 25mm bases, so he can't hide in that.
However he can hide in any other dwarven war machine as they do have crew on 20mm or 25mm bases.

The Low King
16-09-2012, 19:36
Are the war machine crew on 20mm or 25mm bases?
Then he can hide in them as per his own rules.

Armybook trumps rulebook.

Note the Anvil of Doom model doesn't actually have any crew on 20mm or 25mm bases, so he can't hide in that.
However he can hide in any other dwarven war machine as they do have crew on 20mm or 25mm bases.

Armybook says nothing contradictory.

Warmachine crew are not individual models, they are part of the overall model that is the warmachine.

GodlessM
16-09-2012, 20:34
Page 108, crew:

"...We ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the warmachine itself as the extent of the unit"
and
"The crew cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected seperately from their warmachine"
and
"The crew are used only to indicate the remaining number of wounds and the number of attacks the warmachine can make in close combat"

So, he can hide in a unit, the warmachine is the extent of the unit, the crew are not. The crew do not exist for anything but Aesthetics and to count wounds/attack.

I still don't see anything that says they aren't models on 20/25mm bases.

The Low King
16-09-2012, 21:36
I still don't see anything that says they aren't models on 20/25mm bases.

They are not seperate models from the warmachine (in gaming terms).

theunwantedbeing
16-09-2012, 21:50
They are not seperate models from the warmachine (in gaming terms).

Which is completely and utterly meaningless with regards to Shadowblade.

-Totenkopf-
16-09-2012, 22:25
Theunwantedbeing is correct in this case.. But I say, who cares.. Let him hide there. He is 300 victory points and should only kill a warmachine or one enemy character... Sucky deal if it's the heirophant or VC general but oh well.. Anyone who would argue that he can't infiltrate a warmachine is an uber douche.. Don't play with them..

Bladelord
17-09-2012, 08:07
Anyone who would argue that he can't infiltrate a warmachine is an uber douche.. Don't play with them..

Or they just understood the rules wrong... no need to me harsh.

The Low King
17-09-2012, 10:25
Theunwantedbeing is correct in this case.. But I say, who cares.. Let him hide there. He is 300 victory points and should only kill a warmachine or one enemy character... Sucky deal if it's the heirophant or VC general but oh well.. Anyone who would argue that he can't infiltrate a warmachine is an uber douche.. Don't play with them..

Its cool, i dont want to play with you either if you have that attitude.

I have never played with or agaisnt shadowblade, but if i did i would just let him deploy in a warmachine because its not that big a deal and it makes sense as RAI. Doesnt mean i wont have a friendly discussion with the player after the battle about the rules.


Which is completely and utterly meaningless with regards to Shadowblade.

I dont think so. Here is my reasoning:

Shadowblade may deploy in an enemy unit.
This must be an infantry unit or warmachine crew.
The models must be on 20 or 25mm bases.
Warmachine crew no longer exist as individual models.
The warmachine as a whole (including the crew) is a single model, and has no base size.
Therefore he cannot join warmachine crews.

As i said, RAI sure, but RAW i dont think he can join them.

Baraqiel
17-09-2012, 13:20
Warmachine crew no longer exist as individual models.
The warmachine as a whole (including the crew) is a single model, and has no base size.


This isn't strictly true, the models have no in-game effect but still have to be based on the bases they were supplied with - typically 20 or 25mm.

The Low King
17-09-2012, 14:35
This isn't strictly true, the models have no in-game effect but still have to be based on the bases they were supplied with - typically 20 or 25mm.

Warmachines dont have bases, i can mount them on whatever size base i like.

herohammer
18-09-2012, 14:20
Warmachine crew are ignored for "most gaming purposes". Shadowblade's rule explicitly interacts with warmachine crew, I think that qualifies as per usual AB over BRB principles as one of the purposes that are not the "most gaming purposes" referred to. A character joining a warmachine's crew like a dwarf engineer becomes part of the crew; if crew entirely didn't exist for all rules purposes the character would cease to exist when they did so.

This has nothing to do with shadowblade but some warmachines actually do come with bases now. The Tomb Kings finecast Screaming Skull Catapult comes with a chariot base. How to resolve whether to follow the rule to always play a model with the base it comes with or to follow the rule that warmachines have no bases hasn't been clarified since GW haven't done any faq work for 5 millenia (2 army books)

The Low King
18-09-2012, 14:32
Warmachine crew are ignored for "most gaming purposes". Shadowblade's rule explicitly interacts with warmachine crew, I think that qualifies as per usual AB over BRB principles as one of the purposes that are not the "most gaming purposes" referred to. A character joining a warmachine's crew like a dwarf engineer becomes part of the crew; if crew entirely didn't exist for all rules purposes the character would cease to exist when they did so.

Characters cant join warmachines any more, they specifically FAQ'd that. Master engineers (the characters) have to sit 3" away from the warmachine to confer their benifits. Normal Engineers are just warmachine upgrades that add extra wounds and an extra rule.

And shadowblades rule says he can replace a warmachines crew model on a 20 or 25mm base. Unfortunatly, i would argue, that there are no longer any individual crew models in the game. It doesnt conflict with his rules.


This has nothing to do with shadowblade but some warmachines actually do come with bases now. The Tomb Kings finecast Screaming Skull Catapult comes with a chariot base. How to resolve whether to follow the rule to always play a model with the base it comes with or to follow the rule that warmachines have no bases hasn't been clarified since GW haven't done any faq work for 5 millenia (2 army books)

No, it still says you measure to the warmachine for all things, whether it has a base or not

dms505
19-09-2012, 16:58
The rules do not say anything about there not being a crew. It's still there. It is just represented differently now and may be modeled differently depending on how up-to-date the model is or how it is based, if based at all. Shadowblade still "replaces" one of them, representing 1 wound on the warmachine as a whole. Am I correct in that the book says that each crewman is represented by a wound on the model?

Kalandros
19-09-2012, 17:57
No, the crew represent the wounds total. Not the wounds on the machine
- High Bolt Throwers have 3W but only come with 2 crew thus have 2 wounds.

Shadowblade is fully allowed to replace one of these 'wound counters' and then be revealed to go in combat with it.