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Abetorius
19-09-2012, 07:14
Hello all!
The rules for the Squig herd states that the unit has to be 10+ models and have at least 1 herder for every 3 squig. However there is no minimum number of squigs required.
When trying to get a cheap throwaway unit this opens up for the option to field a unit of just 10 herders costing 30p. (If you want regular Night goblins you have to take 20+, costing 60p)
Why would you want that? you say. This is only 10 night goblins with hand weapons.
Well they are also immune to psychology, and if (when) they break from combat they explode causing D6 S5 hits to all units nearby.

You could use this running as a flank unit and at a low cost take out or severely cripple small units. Or run them up the center trying to position the enemy for a nice counter charge.
There is also always the option to include 1-2 squigs in the unit, still keeping the cost at only 35 or 40p. This would give it a little more punch. Why not arrange the squigs in the backrow, hoping for the goblins to die first so the squigs can step up and do some damage before they break and explode.

Are these any viable or useful tactics for the Squig herd?
Or do you exploit the rules when you do it like this? I mean why would the unit be immune to psychology or cause any damage when they break when there is only goblins there to begin with.

Oogie boogie boss
19-09-2012, 07:31
Personally, I'd say using them like this is exploitative. Firstly, it's not as if there are a limited number of cheap options in the list for throw away units, 60pts isn't exactly breaking the bank.

Secondly, in the spirit of the fluff, ItP and the exploding damage are unit attributes generated because of the squigs, so to apply them without actually including squigs is a bit cheesy to say the least. Especially as it's part if what makes the squigs more expensive, so you'd be paying much less for the same rules. It's just unbelievable that 10 'naked' gobbos would create that sort of chaos.

Thirdly, why wouldn't you want squigs?!

Abetorius
19-09-2012, 07:48
I agree that this would be an exploit of the rules, and not at all how it was intended. However this is how the rules for the unit is written.
But where would you then draw the line where it is not an exploit? Including 1 squig and 9 herders? (at 35p) or 2,3,4?

The reason for not bringing more squigs is ofc to get the cost down so it does not matter when you lose them, and also give the unit another role then you would otherwise use them for.
I think that the Squig herd is otherwise best used in greater numbers as a hard hitting infantry unit. And for that you need a lot more squigs, so a bunch of them can die and you still have more to keep attacking. Mind that they are "only" initiative 3. And playing them in this way they cost a lot more to field.

xxRavenxx
19-09-2012, 08:02
I htought they changed herds so you don't get any hits if 0 squigs flee?

Kalandros
19-09-2012, 08:42
Just go for 9 goblins 1 squig to be legit - else its just gamey and not really being very sportive - abusing small loopholes like that.

35 pts for the unit, I use 2 in my new list (:

Djekar
19-09-2012, 12:13
Without the explosions I don't think it's very abusive - I'm with Raven though - I thought they changed the rule so you had to have squigs fleeing to get the explosion anyway.

nurgle5
19-09-2012, 13:28
I htought they changed herds so you don't get any hits if 0 squigs flee?

There's nothing in the FAQ about it but RAW the squig herd only explodes if the unit flees or if there is only squigs left in the unit. So technically you could get the d6 s5 hits from herders breaking from combat.

Harwammer
19-09-2012, 16:43
"Squig Herds are composed of both Night Goblins and Squigs" p54... I'd say it's pretty abusive to have a unit that at deployment does not meet this criteria.

Also note the rule is called 'Squigs Go Wild', not 'goblins go wild'. Having squigs as a part of the unit seems to be a de facto prerequisit to said squigs actually going wild. I know one could argue 'its just the name of the rule' but to do so would be facepalmworthy.

If you are dead set on using a unit like this (which wouldn't actually be entirely silly) I'd recommend you pay the extra 5 points to upgrade a goblin or two in to a squig. That way everyone is happy; you get your cheap throw-away explodey unit and your opponent gets to fight a proper squig herd that actually contains evidence of squigs!

Malorian
19-09-2012, 16:53
We've been over this, it only says the squigs are there in fluff, the strict rules allow you to have no squigs.


In the past I've seen it as useless but this may just be the answer to my recent bunker issue. I don't have to worry about my bunker running away to leadership tricks if it's ItP...

Harwammer
19-09-2012, 16:54
Characters can't join squigherds. And even if they could you'd have to include at least one squig to be your general's personal pet ;)

Malorian
19-09-2012, 18:46
Ah crud... well so much for that idea...

Kalandros
20-09-2012, 06:58
So like I said above, just take 9 gobs and 1 squig to not come off as incredibly gamey.
Use them as speed bumps or like in my case, as scenario objective grabbers - tournament in November has 4 games, 2 scenarios have objectives which requires a unit of 10 infantry or 5 cavalry at the beginning (first one) or at the end (second scenario) - if my enemy wastes fire at these 35 pts speed bumps - I'm fine with it :D I got more stuff that can score, these are just "in case other stuff doesnt survive".

And also, against Miners and flyers, these 35 pts units make great War Machine protection. As they are animosity-prone, keep them close to War Machines but far from each other

Against flyers, stretch them in a line of 10 models in front of your war machine~
Block access!

Or they can also serve as early screen against heavy BS shooting (Hellblasted) on your horde units (savage orc big'uns come to mind), forcing a -2 to hit for shooting through a unit.

shortlegs
20-09-2012, 23:03
For those who say just take 9 herders and a single squig, what happens when some shooting kills off your squig but still leaves a handful of herders? Should they still be allowed to explode then? ;)

Waagh Rider
20-09-2012, 23:24
You bring that to any tournament I'm in or my local games club and you win automatically. I won't even play a turn with you.

Grovel
21-09-2012, 02:15
Over a 30 point unit? While I think it's poor sportsmanship due to it not being in the spirit of the game, I would take a worse view your reaction than I would someone playing the unit.

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 08:14
It's an overreaction, but I get where Waaagh Rider is coming from. It's indicative of a fairly loose approach to the rules and spirit of the army. I'd personally give my opponent the benefit of the doubt over this, but of you think that you aren't going to enjoy playing someone, for whatever reason, it's better to say, 'sorry, this isn't for me' then spend a couple of hours arguing and not enjoying yourself.

Everyone's approach to the game is different, and you have to respect that. It's not bad sportsmanship, it's just how they feel.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 08:42
So like I said above, just take 9 gobs and 1 squig to not come off as incredibly gamey.

I'm curious as to why you think that excludes it from being incredibly gamey? I find the statement... hilarious whilst simultaneously being saddening.

Taking 9 goblins and 1 squig is incredibly, incredibly gamey and an obvious abuse of the intent to anybody who isn't being deliberately obtuse. Anything less than 1 squig per handler at start is incredibly gamey IMHO, in fact there is no IMHO about it, they are squig "herds" and you don't herd a single animal.

If you plonk that down on the table in front of me I'll just say "good game, you win... now pack up your toys cause I'm playing somebody else on this table in 3 minutes".

No ifs, no buts. If you do that then you are a massive douche.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 09:08
How very ridiculous.
The only douche here is you.
I am using my army book as it is presented. Yes I could go with 10 night goblins - only herders, but that feels wrong, yes adding just 1 squig may seem odd but at least it keeps to the unit's intent and actually fits rather well with the image of someone trying to capture a turkey bare-handed without help~ now imagine 10 tiny green people trying to control one big chompy squig.

And on the contrary, if you'd have me take out my army and then pull that coward act, you'd better leave the table to let me play against someone who doesn't mind fighting against a LEGAL army list.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 09:19
How very ridiculous.
The only douche here is you.
I am using my army book as it is presented. Yes I could go with 10 night goblins - only herders, but that feels wrong, yes adding just 1 squig may seem odd but at least it keeps to the unit's intent and actually fits rather well with the image of someone trying to capture a turkey bare-handed without help~ now imagine 10 tiny green people trying to control one big chompy squig.

And on the contrary, if you'd have me take out my army and then pull that coward act, you'd better leave the table to let me play against someone who doesn't mind fighting against a LEGAL army list.

Honestly, the fact you cannot see how out of wack with the intent of the unit that is just says "I do not understand what this game is about".

It doesn't seem odd, it doesn't represent a bunch of little goblins chasing a squig around whilst the Benny hill music plays with wild abandon. It seems what it is it is, a blatant abuse of the intent of the unit, the end.

It is a Squig herd and the herders shouldn't outnumber the herd.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 09:21
And on the contrary, if you'd have me take out my army and then pull that coward act, you'd better leave the table to let me play against someone who doesn't mind fighting against a LEGAL army list.

Nope, you'd be off the table. I know you'd like to think it'd pan out otherwise... but it wouldn't.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
21-09-2012, 09:39
Nope, you'd be off the table. I know you'd like to think it'd pan out otherwise... but it wouldn't.

Oh grow up and stop with Internet tough speak, and just agree that you play the game differently.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 09:46
Nope, you'd be off the table. I know you'd like to think it'd pan out otherwise... but it wouldn't.

Hear hear! I agree with this guy!

An overreaction? No, because by taking your 'squig herd' with one squig and nine goblins, I'd know exactly what sort of player you are. And I would have no interest in playing the sort of player you are. For 2+ hours of my life, which I can't get back. (except if I use my time machine, which is fuelled by kittens, so I try to keep its use to a minimum)

Don't try to rationalise it as fluffy, you told us the reason for doing it, to get a cheap re-director/chaff unit. And to do so, you have to read through so many lines, bend the intent of the rules, interpret statements to your own advantage that I'm afraid we've rumbled your approach to the whole game and the sort of thing we may encounter.

I once had someone tell me bolt throwers couldn't pivot in 7th ed, and sure enough if you read one rule in the rulebook, that appeared to be true. But then you read the rest of the rules and put it all in context and hey presto, of course they could. Never played him again, neither...

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 09:48
Oh grow up and stop with Internet tough speak, and just agree that you play the game differently.

As in, the way it's intended to be played without interpreting the rules to mean a different thing to what they mean?

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 09:49
Oh grow up and stop with Internet tough speak, and just agree that you play the game differently.

Yes, I always agree with people calling me a douche and then a coward...

The thing is, I don't agree. I don't disagree that he can play the game as he wants, he just wont do it against me and any table I'm playing on.

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 10:05
Given that you almost certainly never will play each other, does it really matter? One of you thinks one way of playing is okay, the other disagrees. Leave it at that. The whole 'i'd have the use of the table' thing really doesn't matter.

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 10:07
On another note, Waagh Rider, where in London are you and where do you play? I've been here for two years but haven't really found a good gaming club. Just coming up to the point where i'll have more time to play, would be good to know where some good clubs are. PM me if you don't want to put down details in public.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 10:18
On another note, Waagh Rider, where in London are you and where do you play? I've been here for two years but haven't really found a good gaming club. Just coming up to the point where i'll have more time to play, would be good to know where some good clubs are. PM me if you don't want to put down details in public.

I play at North London Titans (formerly Imps) club which is located in West Finchley and runs every alternate sunday. There is also a good club in Clapham, where I used to live, and also one more central in Charing Cross (although I have no idea what they play now, but they did used to have a good Fantasy following -Now they probably play that Malifaux game, or hordes or whatever)
Titans are a nice bunch of lads - no power gamers or rules benders in sight!

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 10:18
Ah, that's cool, I live in West Hampstead, so not far away.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 11:20
I'm impressed at the reaction, Waagh Rider, just from me using a legal entry in my list, you know the "sort of player" I am?
You're being foolish. Perhaps you play in a "comped" environment where people have to have comp to play fair.

I play in a mostly uncomped environment and face some 'ard lists, but this is the first time anyone would consider these 35 pts speed bumps as "the type of filth that would make me never want to play this person"

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
This is warseer after all, and I should've heeded the warning I received a few days ago. (and no, I do not mean a warning to my name from the mods)

Abetorius
21-09-2012, 11:28
I never thought posting these tactical ideas would cause such a debate and bad feelings in people.
Personally I doubt I will use the Herds in this manner, with only 10 herders. Basically because I am not certain it would be that very useful. Having a unit that cost 30p just to get the d6 s5 hits that maybe cause 2-3 wounds on average in the end is not really worth it. Could just throw a fanatic in that direction instead.
But as it stands now I am still toying with the idea of fielding maybe 2-3 squigs in the unit. Arranging the squigs in either the back or the front row, depending on the Initiative of the units I am facing. It would keep the cost at only 45p, and still make it good enough to take on most chaff.

If GW really did not want people playing the units in this way they should have written the rules so you could not. Maybe stating that you need at least one squigs for every herder, or something like that.

The game is in my opinion full of loopholes that gets used everywhere more or less often. With the fanatic slingshot on one end and trivial things like altering the facing of your monster base just to minimize the risk of cannon shots on the other end. If I find myself in a game with someone who I think abuses the rules, but keeps to them, then I would let him and try to win anyway. I never forfeit a game. But I would probably refrain from playing him again.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 11:35
I'm impressed at the reaction, Waagh Rider, just from me using a legal entry in my list, you know the "sort of player" I am?
You're being foolish. Perhaps you play in a "comped" environment where people have to have comp to play fair.

I play in a mostly uncomped environment and face some 'ard lists, but this is the first time anyone would consider these 35 pts speed bumps as "the type of filth that would make me never want to play this person"

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
This is warseer after all, and I should've heeded the warning I received a few days ago. (and no, I do not mean a warning to my name from the mods)

No, indeed I'm not bothered about the unit itself, only the mental contortions you have gone through to convince yourself that GW intends you to take a squig herd with little to no squigs in it, for gamey purposes. Your desire to do this indicates a frame of mind that does not believe that abusing both the rules and the intent of the rules is against the spirit of the game!
I don't play in a comped environment, but I take a moderate non-abusive army list and will only play opponents who do the same. It is ONLY a game, after all, and we are both supposed to have fun. I have similarly no truck with those who reform into buildings - there may well be no rule which says you can't but nevertheless it is against the spirit of the game to do so. Abuse the game as much as you like matey, but please don't be surprised and offended when people call you on it.
Peace and Love,

The Low King
21-09-2012, 11:36
I'm impressed at the reaction, Waagh Rider, just from me using a legal entry in my list, you know the "sort of player" I am?


I believe it was more from the progression of reasoning you used:

-I want a small redirector/bunker
-Normal golbins are not good enough
-Squig herds are ITP and can be only 10 large if you want
-If i read the rules in a certain way i can have a unit with no squigs in it
-I know that its gamey and rule abusive so im going to justify it by having a single squig

Wich actually does say quite a lot about your attitude to the game.


There is actually someone in my local store who took units of ten herders for a few games. He couldnt keep it up and stopped after a few games.

Edit: damn

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 11:41
If GW really did not want people playing the units in this way they should have written the rules so you could not. Maybe stating that you need at least one squigs for every herder, or something like that.

Not sure I can believe you just said this. Use your own judgement and take responsibility for your own actions. Use your brain for something useful rather than constantly looking for rules loopholes in a silly game. Get a law degree, I'm sure you'd be good at it.
And while we are on the topic, the rule says 'squig herds are composed of both Night Goblins and Squigs' Notice the plural? So maybe you have to take a minimum of two squigs?

The Low King
21-09-2012, 11:48
Simple way to resolve it would be to specify that you only get ITP or the Squig-splosion rule (the D6 hits one) if there are squigs in the unit.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 11:54
I think you misunderstood me completely, I said it would be gamey to play it purely raw that 0 squigs would not only be legal for a mixed unit, but that the explosion would also occur.
What I suggested was to take 1 squig and 9 herders, because that would be a squig herd team - or okay lets go for 2 squigs 8 herders at 40 pts instead, woo, big change.

What I also aimed at is that, for the Squigs Go Wild rule (which does NOT require squigs to be alive) - that it should be played as requiring at least 1 squig alive.
Kill my one squig and there's no more explosion happening. Any shooting/missile directed at it will hit the squig on a 1-4.
If you can spare the shooting, more power to you. If you can't, then its coming at you with the anti-chaff & redirection purpose as it should.
Whats wrong with that?

My best use of them when I made the list was to take on multiple units of 6 miners arriving to destroy my war machines - a real pain to deal with, if my machines can't stop them, then I lose the machines worth many more points, instead I could have the one squig and the 9 goblins just take on the miners, go boom - take down a few hopefully and have my machines safe.

Now please direct me to how I am being a filthy abuser of the rules when I am suggesting to bend the rules toward the intent of the rules?
The minimum unit size is not left to me, of course they should've left it as taking "teams of 3 squigs + 2 herders" for 30 pts a pop and build your unit from a minimum of 1 team.
But that is not for me to decide.

So take your e-thug attitude elsewhere~

The Low King
21-09-2012, 11:58
My best use of them when I made the list was to take on multiple units of 6 miners arriving to destroy my war machines - a real pain to deal with, if my machines can't stop them, then I lose the machines worth many more points, instead I could have the one squig and the 9 goblins just take on the miners, go boom - take down a few hopefully and have my machines safe.



Those miners probably cost more than the warmachines

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:06
Those miners probably cost more than the warmachines

2 of those units of 6 miners can wreck 2 to 4 of my 4 war machines if cannons havent taken one or 3 out yet. hah. But its free victory points while keeping his miners' VP safe too.
But its just one thing I can use the "Herd speed bump" for.

I'd throw them at annoying flying units ASAP to explode some wounds off to make it harder to get to my war machines too.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 12:07
I think you misunderstood me completely, I said it would be gamey to play it purely raw that 0 squigs would not only be legal for a mixed unit, but that the explosion would also occur.
What I suggested was to take 1 squig and 9 herders, because that would be a squig herd team - or okay lets go for 2 squigs 8 herders at 40 pts instead, woo, big change.

What I also aimed at is that, for the Squigs Go Wild rule (which does NOT require squigs to be alive) - that it should be played as requiring at least 1 squig alive.
Kill my one squig and there's no more explosion happening. Any shooting/missile directed at it will hit the squig on a 1-4.
If you can spare the shooting, more power to you. If you can't, then its coming at you with the anti-chaff & redirection purpose as it should.
Whats wrong with that?

My best use of them when I made the list was to take on multiple units of 6 miners arriving to destroy my war machines - a real pain to deal with, if my machines can't stop them, then I lose the machines worth many more points, instead I could have the one squig and the 9 goblins just take on the miners, go boom - take down a few hopefully and have my machines safe.

Now please direct me to how I am being a filthy abuser of the rules when I am suggesting to bend the rules toward the intent of the rules?
The minimum unit size is not left to me, of course they should've left it as taking "teams of 3 squigs + 2 herders" for 30 pts a pop and build your unit from a minimum of 1 team.
But that is not for me to decide.

So take your e-thug attitude elsewhere~

You are squirming so much, its painful to watch. And seem determined to paint people who take the opposite view from you as E-thugs? Miners are listed in the dwarf book at 5+ for a unit and you are attempting to twist the wording of squig herds to allow you to counter them? How many units of 6 miners does your opponent take? cuts into his special units allowance somewhat?
And you still haven't told me how 'squig herds are composed of Night Goblins and Squigs' (plural) allows you to do anything you've just said?
And within the rules of logic and sanity, how can a rule called 'Squigs Gone Wild' happen when there are no squigs?!! You are attempting to correct a problem that only exists within your loophole obsessed mind!
Please return to earth and reality sir.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:13
What the hell, now enough being such a god damn child, Waagh Rider. I'm giving the facts and discussing tactics while you keep interrupting the thread.

How the hell am I twisting any words for the squig herd teams?
Have you opened an Orcs & goblins army book lately?
Squig herds also cut into my specials, whats your point? What are you aiming at? Why do you only attack me personally without saying what you really find abusive?

I'm giving the RAW and explaining exactly that it shouldnt be played that way. Which is what the thread was all about - playing it raw and taking units of 10 herders 0 squigs.
You seem to disagree that "1 squig is enough" without explaining anything and just throwing accusations and insults around.
Your point on the "plural" thing is just as silly as the rest of this, fine lets go for 2 squigs if that can satisfy you however its still not breaking any rules.

There is no loophole obsessed mind but the one you think exists, which makes you quite an insane person to deal with.
Enough of this bouncing back and forth, lets have the mods deal with this situation.

Why, Warseer, why? Why does it always spiral down into such ridiculous outcomes?

Artinam
21-09-2012, 12:16
RAW its legal, but many view its not RAI.

Its in my opinion pointless to debate further. Those following the RAW will not be pursuaded to follow the RAI and vice versa.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:18
RAW its legal, but many view its not RAI.

Its in my opinion pointless to debate further. Those following the RAW will not be pursuaded to follow the RAI and vice versa.

And we're 2 RAI debating further RAI...
different interpretations of interpretations.

Nice.

INCEPTION

Abetorius
21-09-2012, 12:20
Well then what is the magical minimum number of squigs in a unit, that would not have the more sensitive part of the warhammer community running sobbing from the room with tears in their eyes? I really would like to know, so I wont step on any ones toes.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:27
0 is RAW, its legal.
1 is legit
2 would agree with Waagh's interpretation that the plural form is not a mere suggestion but a 'clear' requirement.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 12:29
Why, Warseer, why? Why does it always spiral down into such ridiculous outcomes?

Perhaps it's your passive aggressive posting style?

You know, where you call a person a coward and a douche, then next post you are shocked at the reaction you've received and you're playing the offended/hurt feelings card.

Well I'm shocked anybody even needs to ask this. If said unit could be used as the punchline of a joke then it is a pretty good indication that its wrong.

Player A plonks down 9 handlers and a squig.

Player B asks "What's that?"

Player A says "it's my squig herd" badum-tish!

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 12:32
2 of those units of 6 miners can wreck 2 to 4 of my 4 war machines if cannons havent taken one or 3 out yet. hah. But its free victory points while keeping his miners' VP safe too.
But its just one thing I can use the "Herd speed bump" for.

I'd throw them at annoying flying units ASAP to explode some wounds off to make it harder to get to my war machines too.

I'm pretty sure the O&G list is replete with options that could easily solve this issue for you.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 12:35
Well then what is the magical minimum number of squigs in a unit, that would not have the more sensitive part of the warhammer community running sobbing from the room with tears in their eyes? I really would like to know, so I wont step on any ones toes.

You don't start with more handlers than squigs and tbh I think the intent is probably 1 handler per three squigs.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:35
Perhaps it's your passive aggressive posting style?

You know, where you call a person a coward and a douche, then next post you are shocked at the reaction you've received and you're playing the offended/hurt feelings card.

"The pot calling the kettle black"

So anyway, how many squigs would satisfy you, BooMeRLiNSKi?
And yes, I realize my OnG have more than enough tools to deal with those but my new list has a swarm of things to keep my opponents busy and the recent addition of these small-sized herds were to try out their worth in a tournament soon.

You start with 10 models. The rules make no specifications as to how many squigs and herders form the basic 10 models.
The rules give a restriction that for every 3 squigs you take, you must have a minimum of 1 herder. Thus you may have more herders than squigs as nothing indicates otherwise and only your interpretation of I know not what makes you say that there is something wrong with 1 squig 9 herders.

To me, 1 squig giving 9 goblins trouble is something quite normal, if you can't picture it because you keep thinking I'm there to abuse every loophole, too bad for you, we're not playing each other and contrary to what you believe, I follow the rules

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 12:44
0 is RAW, its legal.
1 is legit
2 would agree with Waagh's interpretation that the plural form is not a mere suggestion but a 'clear' requirement.

You are being almost purposefully obtuse Kalandros.

If the important thing to you is what the rules either do or do not say, and that you can do something unless the rules say you can't (a perverse point of view to me) then I am pointing out that a sentence in the squig herd rules says that a squig herd must contain BOTH night goblins and SQUIGS (plural) So by your logic, the rules are saying that:

1. Squig herds cannot be composed of just Night Goblins.
2. Squig herds must be composed of 'squigs' not A squig.

Thus even using your own criteria, you are being abusive of the rules, I don't care what your intention or motivation is, when it comes down to it.
And once again you avoid my point about the Squigs Gone Wild rule, preferring instead to go Ad Hominem, which ironically is what you are accusing ME of doing!
This is more than a RAW vs RAI debate, it is that Kalandros is so desperate to bend the rules and find loopholes to deal with 6 miners that he is even willfully ignoring what is on the page!
And yes, it does give us a valuable insight into what sort of player you are and what you believe is acceptable in a game of Warhammer.
My point about the miners is thusly:
1. They can clearly be taken in units of 5+, so are instantly more valid than your Squig herd interpretation. Yet you are trying to bend the rules to let you have a chaff unit that is clearly not intended to BE a chaff unit.
2. They take up a valuable special choice, which means the rest of his army must be core and rare, and beating Dwarf warriors should be childs play for an orcs and goblins player.
3. Your war machines are not what wins you the game, they are unreliable and cheap. Is it really worth all this effort to try and break squig herds?

And I repeat: In what section of the Bizarroverse, can the Squigs Gone Wild rule work without any squigs?! The clue is in the title!

And FYI, I have been an O&G player for 24 years. I have owned all the army books and am intimately acquainted with the troop types and rules, Ta.

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 12:51
There are no "Special choice" slots. You can have 3 units of 6 miners and then 3 units of slayers 3 units of ironbreakers and 9 war machines if it all fits your 50% in specials.
I see not where you can find any other restriction as those .. what was it? 4 special choices at 2k pts? those restrictions are long gone with the edition change

The part about my doom divers and rock lobbers was merely tactical discussion - their potential. You seem to think I take them only for that goal?
And yes, those cheap unreliable war machines can score home (throw 2 DDs and 2 RLs at the same unit, at least 1 should be direct hit by average, put the hurt on mournfangs ASAP~) and help win the game. Else, why take them at all?

Also you seem to not fully understand RAW. But I'll leave it at that.

I'd like to point out that I did not start the thread and only joined in the discussion because I realized the possibility, everything else in this debate is your and that other guy's doing - I'm trying to discuss the potential these units have while you keep poking around about the "legal" issue which I think is solved now since you agree that 2 Squigs 8 herders it is for minimum herd size (technically 0 squigs still works)

MyNameDidntFit
21-09-2012, 12:59
Well don't you know about the herd?
Well, everybody's talking about the herd!
A-well-a herd, herd, h-herd's the word,
A-well-a herd...

Herder herd! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow)
Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb... arawlawlawraawawawrlarwlarr... aaah!

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 13:02
Well don't you know about the herd?
Well, everybody's talking about the herd!
A-well-a herd, herd, h-herd's the word,
A-well-a herd...

Herder herd! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow)
Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb... arawlawlawraawawawrlarwlarr... aaah!


Thank you.

Now one last thing before I go get some sleep....

I gave this example on another forum:

I take 39 Squigs and 13 goblins - a legal unit.

Over the course of the game, 38 squigs die, all 13 goblins are alive (back ranks)
My unit breaks, everything in 2d6" takes a D6 S5.

1 Squig exploded, all according to the rules.

So....

I simply make the unit size at its minimum allowed: 10+, choosing to take only a single squig. (or 2 now, maybe. Most likely still just 1)
Kill my one squig and I won't claim an explosion.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 13:06
There are no "Special choice" slots. You can have 3 units of 6 miners and then 3 units of slayers 3 units of ironbreakers and 9 war machines if it all fits your 50% in specials.
I see not where you can find any other restriction as those .. what was it? 4 special choices at 2k pts? those restrictions are long gone with the edition change

The part about my doom divers and rock lobbers was merely tactical discussion - their potential. You seem to think I take them only for that goal?
And yes, those cheap unreliable war machines can score home (throw 2 DDs and 2 RLs at the same unit, at least 1 should be direct hit by average, put the hurt on mournfangs ASAP~) and help win the game. Else, why take them at all?

And why are you so desperate yourself to brand me as desperate to bend the rules? I'm not doing any of that.
Also you seem to not fully understand RAW. But I'll leave it at that.
2 Squigs 8 herders it is for minimum herd size


So what is so rules-bendy and desperately loopholey about a unit of 2 squigs and 8 herders?

That combination doesn't bother me! But that was not what you were suggesting, please re-read your own thread title. You've conceded a lot from what you were initially wanting Why? What do I not understand about RAW? How have you come to the conclusion that you need 2 squigs and 8 handlers when you originally claimed the rules let you have NO squigs? Your initial premise, flawed, much?
With the special choices I was referring to the duplication of choices which has a limit. Seems like he's wasting points hand over fist there, to take out lame goblin war machines. I use my doomdivers to take out mournfangs, but not usually in a game against dwarfs. How effective are O&G war machines against dwarf units? I would rate doom divers up there, but little else. On many occasion, my two doomedivers have been taken out by fast cav or gorgers or whatever. I still win, using tactics. In a warmachine vs war machine contest, dwarfs are going to beat you every time!

And once again, please explain how Squigs Gone Wild works without the squigs? You've been ignoring this one.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 13:07
"The pot calling the kettle black"

Not at all. I'll admit to having a fairly aggressive posting style, nothing passive about it though. Also I did say "if somebody did that", and there is a big difference.


Also you seem to not fully understand RAW. But I'll leave it at that.

I'd like you to consider that re the passive aggressive comment I made and in light of the saying "have your cake and eat it"


I'm trying to discuss the potential these units have

Played like that they have the potential to make people not like you.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 13:16
on mournfangs ASAP~)

(technically 0 squigs still works)

Whoah!!! HOW?

HereBeDragons
21-09-2012, 13:20
A potentially interesting discussion, ruined. Good work chaps.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 13:37
A potentially interesting discussion, ruined. Good work chaps.

Actually there has been an interesting discussion with not that much personal insult thrown.

The most useless posts in the thread are your response and mine to it. Thanks for stopping by to let us know it doesn't make your standards?

So good work "chap".

BigbyWolf
21-09-2012, 14:13
Have to agree with Kalandros here, I use 1 or 2 units (with a 9/1 ratio) every now and then, and the only comment I've had on them were one "Oh, that's an interesting concept". There are far worse things for people to get upset about than that (I played against Teclis a few days ago, and know which one I'd rather face). They are a perfectly legal unit and I can't understand that the idea of using them can bring up so many issues.

OP- I'd advise giving them a go. I would never use them without a squig, as it is called a squig herd, and the higher strength attack from the squig may come in use. It's a perfectly valid choice, and any issues that come up with your gaming group (I doubt there will be many) can be dealt with there, don't be put off by internet tough-talkers.

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 14:31
Have to agree with Kalandros here, I use 1 or 2 units (with a 9/1 ratio) every now and then, and the only comment I've had on them were one "Oh, that's an interesting concept". There are far worse things for people to get upset about than that (I played against Teclis a few days ago, and know which one I'd rather face). They are a perfectly legal unit and I can't understand that the idea of using them can bring up so many issues.

OP- I'd advise giving them a go. I would never use them without a squig, as it is called a squig herd, and the higher strength attack from the squig may come in use. It's a perfectly valid choice, and any issues that come up with your gaming group (I doubt there will be many) can be dealt with there, don't be put off by internet tough-talkers.

Wow, never thought of myself as an internet tough-talker. But once again, the issue I had was Kalandros' desire to make a squig herd without any squigs in the first place, which smacks of wrong. I'm not at all opposed to the idea of SMALL SQUIG HERDS. It's squig herds with no squigs in that get my goat. And I still haven't had an answer to why 1 squig is ok, considering the rule says squig herds are composed of 'Night Goblins and squigs', rather than A Night Goblin and a squig'. And also Kalandros made the claim that the 'Squigs Gone Wild' rule worked without any squigs, then failed to back it up with evidence!

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 14:40
Wow. Was any of that really necessary? Do people really need to go to the length of insults over a disagreement about the way rules to a game are interpreted? If you really find it that awful a violation of the game, fine- refuse to play if it's not what you fancy and explain why. If the other person get's offended, walk away. The OP was asking what people thought about the idea, whether they thought it was unfair or reasonable. They didn't ask everyone to try and impose their opinion on others. Bad warseerites.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 14:43
Have to agree with Kalandros here, I use 1 or 2 units (with a 9/1 ratio) every now and then, and the only comment I've had on them were one "Oh, that's an interesting concept"

Are you sure it wasn't "Oh.... that's an interesting... concept"?


I would never use them without a squig, as it is called a squig herd

and where does the herd part come from that one squig?

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 15:07
Wow. Was any of that really necessary? Do people really need to go to the length of insults over a disagreement about the way rules to a game are interpreted? If you really find it that awful a violation of the game, fine- refuse to play if it's not what you fancy and explain why. If the other person get's offended, walk away. The OP was asking what people thought about the idea, whether they thought it was unfair or reasonable. They didn't ask everyone to try and impose their opinion on others. Bad warseerites.

I thought it was unreasonable and said so. I raised several points which no one has answered. I also thought that the raising of the question was indicative of an approach to a wargame that repels me. I said so. This is surely the point of the forum. Unless the OP just wanted everyone to agree with him, so he could put his proposal into action with a clear conscience? I agree also with the person who raised GW's use of the word 'herd' which according to my Collins dictionary defines a herd as 'company of animals, usually of the same species, feeding or travelling together'. This applies to 9 herders and one squig, does it?

HereBeDragons
21-09-2012, 15:24
Actually there has been an interesting discussion with not that much personal insult thrown.

The most useless posts in the thread are your response and mine to it. Thanks for stopping by to let us know it doesn't make your standards?

So good work "chap".

You're quite right. I had hoped to see some sensible, polite debate on the OPs question, one that I found quite interesting as I have an O&G army, just one that I haven't used in several years. What number of squigs is "right" for a herd is not a black and white question and worthy of discussion. Instead I find a stream of posts of the form:


I'm curious as to why you think that excludes it from being incredibly gamey? I find the statement... hilarious whilst simultaneously being saddening.

Taking 9 goblins and 1 squig is incredibly, incredibly gamey and an obvious abuse of the intent to anybody who isn't being deliberately obtuse. Anything less than 1 squig per handler at start is incredibly gamey IMHO, in fact there is no IMHO about it, they are squig "herds" and you don't herd a single animal.

If you plonk that down on the table in front of me I'll just say "good game, you win... now pack up your toys cause I'm playing somebody else on this table in 3 minutes".

No ifs, no buts. If you do that then you are a massive douche.


Honestly, the fact you cannot see how out of wack with the intent of the unit that is just says "I do not understand what this game is about".

It doesn't seem odd, it doesn't represent a bunch of little goblins chasing a squig around whilst the Benny hill music plays with wild abandon. It seems what it is it is, a blatant abuse of the intent of the unit, the end.

It is a Squig herd and the herders shouldn't outnumber the herd.


Nope, you'd be off the table. I know you'd like to think it'd pan out otherwise... but it wouldn't.


Yes, I always agree with people calling me a douche and then a coward...

The thing is, I don't agree. I don't disagree that he can play the game as he wants, he just wont do it against me and any table I'm playing on.


Perhaps it's your passive aggressive posting style?

You know, where you call a person a coward and a douche, then next post you are shocked at the reaction you've received and you're playing the offended/hurt feelings card.

Well I'm shocked anybody even needs to ask this. If said unit could be used as the punchline of a joke then it is a pretty good indication that its wrong.

Player A plonks down 9 handlers and a squig.

Player B asks "What's that?"

Player A says "it's my squig herd" badum-tish!


I'm pretty sure the O&G list is replete with options that could easily solve this issue for you.


You don't start with more handlers than squigs and tbh I think the intent is probably 1 handler per three squigs.


Not at all. I'll admit to having a fairly aggressive posting style, nothing passive about it though. Also I did say "if somebody did that", and there is a big difference.



I'd like you to consider that re the passive aggressive comment I made and in light of the saying "have your cake and eat it"



Played like that they have the potential to make people not like you.


Only two of all your posts has actually contributed positively and politely to the question that is supposed to be under discussion, without needing to insult the person you are replying to in some form or another.


Are you sure it wasn't "Oh.... that's an interesting... concept"?



and where does the herd part come from that one squig?

But there is a sensible and reasonably worded reply to the OP's question and that poster just gets a face full of sarcasm thrown at them? Its posters like you who are preventing any kind of reasoned debate.


So you feel that a herd should have at least one squig per herder? Thats fine. Its a very good opinion, but no better than anyone else's. But what about having 2 herders to every squig? This was how squigs were herded in warhammer quest for example. There is more than one answer to the question of squig to herder ratio.

Oogie boogie boss
21-09-2012, 15:35
Personally i'd want at least 2 Squigs to each herder, but that's just me. I do find that to more in character with the intention of the unit, and i'd want my Squig Herds to be impact units, not redirectors. And yes, I do think it's a bit 'gamey' to use none or only one Squig and still use ItP and the Exploding rule. But again, that's just me, and if others want to use it, fine. At the end of the day, it's not really that big a deal and it almost certainly wont be the difference between victory and defeat.

Just so you know BooMeRLiNSKi (and everyone else who was being insulting), that's how you get across your opinion reasonably without making it an argument or a personal insult. If you take an aggressive tone with people, all you're doing is making yourself look like a fool, and putting people off engaging with you rationally, let alone considering your argument.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 15:59
Only two of all your posts has actually contributed positively and politely to the question that is supposed to be under discussion, without needing to insult the person you are replying to in some form or another.

Actually that's just your opinion and that still puts me two posts ahead of you, doesn't it?


But there is a sensible and reasonably worded reply to the OP's question and that poster just gets a face full of sarcasm thrown at them? Its posters like you who are preventing any kind of reasoned debate.

Was this the guy dismissing other people opinions as just being "internet tough talkers"? Is this how a reasoned debate is started?

The reality here is that you see what you want to see. If you really thought I was "quite right" you wouldn't have spent the rest of the post quoting me, or in other words don't condemn a pissing contest whilst trying to win one of your own.


So you feel that a herd should have at least one squig per herder? Thats fine. Its a very good opinion, but no better than anyone else's. But what about having 2 herders to every squig? This was how squigs were herded in warhammer quest for example. There is more than one answer to the question of squig to herder ratio.

More herd than herders is (to me) an obvious start.

BooMeRLiNSKi
21-09-2012, 16:03
Just so you know BooMeRLiNSKi (and everyone else who was being insulting), that's how you get across your opinion reasonably without making it an argument or a personal insult. If you take an aggressive tone with people, all you're doing is making yourself look like a fool, and putting people off engaging with you rationally, let alone considering your argument.

Can you also teach me how to not be a condescending git? ;)

Waagh Rider
21-09-2012, 16:10
Personally i'd want at least 2 Squigs to each herder, but that's just me. I do find that to more in character with the intention of the unit, and i'd want my Squig Herds to be impact units, not redirectors. And yes, I do think it's a bit 'gamey' to use none or only one Squig and still use ItP and the Exploding rule. But again, that's just me, and if others want to use it, fine. At the end of the day, it's not really that big a deal and it almost certainly wont be the difference between victory and defeat.

Just so you know BooMeRLiNSKi (and everyone else who was being insulting), that's how you get across your opinion reasonably without making it an argument or a personal insult. If you take an aggressive tone with people, all you're doing is making yourself look like a fool, and putting people off engaging with you rationally, let alone considering your argument.

I think you'll find it was just him who was insulting. I take issue with saying that if others want to use it fine, as those others are the people we find ourselves up against in pick up games. Gaming the rules and trying to get away with ridiculous things like squig herds with no squigs in makes for a poor gaming experience. I think you'll find that one of my original points about the OP was if he could convince himself this was ok, what else would he try and do to games of Warhammer! The approach of 'it doesn't say I can't, so I can' is an approach to the game and a nasty philosophical dead end that I would happily see stamped out, and I do my best to stamp on it at every opportunity. Once again, I am not against small squig herds, but no-one, not least the OP has shown me how his original premise would even be legal, let alone correct. At no point have I made out that doing this would make any difference to winning or losing a game, but it does not endear the OP to me, nor anyone who would try and use rules loopholes to gain advantage in a war game that uses little figures....
Peace out,

HereBeDragons
21-09-2012, 16:44
@BooMeRLiNSKi: Im sorry you feel I am attempting to win a "pissing contest". I don't feel that someone should be free act so rudely to other forum users without it being pointed out to them. Normally I'd just ignore it like everyone else but I guess I just got fed up of it reading this thread. The fact that someone else has felt the need to criticise you shows its not just me that thinks this. If you are going to act how you have done, expect to face criticism once in a while.

t-tauri
21-09-2012, 16:57
Thread closed pending investigation.