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Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 14:13
So I have a buddy who is thinking about getting into the hobby, and while I have suggested Space Marines for a starting force he seems fairly intrigued by the Imperial Guard.

That said, I've not really played 40k in awhile so I don't know what a standard 1500 point IG army looks like and cost in points and real world money.

I don't think he's worried about painting or building time, just more the cost.

Veteran advice welcome!

A.T.
19-09-2012, 14:19
That said, I've not really played 40k in awhile so I don't know what a standard 1500 point IG army looks like and cost in points and real world money.The IG codex is vast and varied - a single troops choice could be 10 outflanking legionnaires, or it could be a blob of 70+ men, a dozen heavy weapon teams, and a half dozen vehicles.

First thing will be to decide what kind of IG army he wants - mech rush, troop horde, airwing, heavy artillery, armoured company, etc. Pick a theme and build from there.

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 14:49
Well I've talked to him about it, he seems rather open and wants a good starting point.

He seems to gravitate towards Heavy Artillery, Armoured Company or Mechanized. I think troop horde appeals also but that's daunting for a new comer.

ehlijen
19-09-2012, 15:00
He'll need at least 20 men for the minimum troops choices, so he should decide whether he wants cadian, catachan or a mix. A metal/resin regiment is not recommended for beginners.

To that he can start adding vehicles and more men as he likes. Definetly start small with 500 or so points games, both to give him a not too hard to reach goal for starters and to allow him a chance to change his mind about what he wants to add after some gaming experience. Even if he changes his mind about the faction, he can ally a small guard army into most others.

Gertjan
19-09-2012, 15:27
If he's worried about the cost, well, then guard isn't really for him. You can make the list relatively cheap but even then it'll cost you quite a bit. Guard are not a cheap army, any way you build them, they can just be a bit "less expensive" tbh.

If he wants to go heavy artillery he'll either have to convert, or, making it worse, go forgeworld as there are quite a few options in the artillery section still missing. Some of which are damn good such as the Griffon.

That said, the guard are a great and diverse army and if he does go for them I'm sure he won't regret it :D

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 15:36
What is the functional difference in a Command HQ and a Command Squad? And do you need that + the 20 Infantry, or just the 20 Infantry?

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 15:48
What is the functional difference in a Command HQ and a Command Squad? And do you need that + the 20 Infantry, or just the 20 Infantry?

There are two types;
1. Company command squad, which is an independent HQ choice.

2. Platoon command squad, which is a compulsory part of in infantry platoon.

Now to get started you have two basic troops choices:
1. Veteran squads (this it literally squads of 10 men, with better stats and equipment than normal guardsmen)

2. Infantry platoon (these are a little more complicated as they are broken down into squads...
must have 1 platoon command squad (5 men including 1 officer)
2 - 5 infantry squads (squads of 10 guardsmen that can combine into 'blobs' of guardsmen
0-5 heavy weapon squads (squads made up of 3 heavy weapon teams)
0-2 (I think) special weapon squads (squads of 6 men with 3 special weapons)
0-1 (I think) conscripts (squad of 10 - 50 men with little in the way of stats or equipment, but great in numbers)


Now If I was talking to someone starting a guard army, I would suggest that they start from a company command squad, 1 veteran squad and a basic infantry platoon (conveniently a battleforce is a basic platoon with 1 command, 2 infantry squads and a heavy weapon squad + a sentinel, which is a fast attack choice). This should give a nice enough solid core to then build from in any way you fancy. (and would only really need to buy a battleforce, command squad box and infantry box to get started)

hope this helps some!

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 18:03
There are two types;
1. Company command squad, which is an independent HQ choice.

2. Platoon command squad, which is a compulsory part of in infantry platoon.

Now to get started you have two basic troops choices:
1. Veteran squads (this it literally squads of 10 men, with better stats and equipment than normal guardsmen)

2. Infantry platoon (these are a little more complicated as they are broken down into squads...
must have 1 platoon command squad (5 men including 1 officer)
2 - 5 infantry squads (squads of 10 guardsmen that can combine into 'blobs' of guardsmen
0-5 heavy weapon squads (squads made up of 3 heavy weapon teams)
0-2 (I think) special weapon squads (squads of 6 men with 3 special weapons)
0-1 (I think) conscripts (squad of 10 - 50 men with little in the way of stats or equipment, but great in numbers)


Now If I was talking to someone starting a guard army, I would suggest that they start from a company command squad, 1 veteran squad and a basic infantry platoon (conveniently a battleforce is a basic platoon with 1 command, 2 infantry squads and a heavy weapon squad + a sentinel, which is a fast attack choice). This should give a nice enough solid core to then build from in any way you fancy. (and would only really need to buy a battleforce, command squad box and infantry box to get started)

hope this helps some!

Awesome, this is very helpful. I'm looking at the Death Korp on Forge World (morbid curiosity) any idea what the real difference is between their "Command HQ Squad" and the "Command Squad"?

All this talk of guard has gotten me interested now lol! "If you don't start a guard army, then by the emperor I will!"

I'm assuming that most people that run Death Korp do not use DKoK rules, but proxy them as standard IG?

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 18:46
looking at it, I would think that you can use the command HQ as your company command and the command squad as platoon commands. as for the rules I've no Idea, no-one I know has/uses them!

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 18:49
looking at it, I would think that you can use the command HQ as your company command and the command squad as platoon commands. as for the rules I've no Idea, no-one I know has/uses them!

Okay that's what I was assuming, I might have to pick up the IG Codex tonight, it's fairly recent isn't it? When did it come out

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 18:51
actually a few years now, mine has it's initial date as 2008 & the copy I have listed as the '2009' edition, but I may be wrong... As a codex though, it holds up very well

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 18:53
So I take it that it's still fairly competitive in its many forms? Do you find that different army set ups, arty, airwing, infantry are equally decent?

13713
19-09-2012, 18:57
So I take it that it's still fairly competitive in its many forms? Do you find that different army set ups, arty, airwing, infantry are equally decent?

Yes the different forms of an IG army work quite well be it Mech, Air Cav, or just plain foot slogging.

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 18:59
Air Cav being deep strike troops or troops deployed via Valkyrie?

13713
19-09-2012, 19:10
Air Cav being deep strike troops or troops deployed via Valkyrie?

Either way. Thats the great thing about guard, it's the 31 flavors army.

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 19:30
indeed it is! I personally favour foot slogging myself, and they hold up very well, mostly because it's a war of attrition that alot of players really struggle with, though tbh think it's hard for most armies when you're up against 112 guardsmen, a sentinel and a leman russ at 1500pts

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 19:41
So through this research for my buddy, I'm kind of thinking I might start a guard force now. I've always liked Death Korp and was kind of looking at it as a slow build for that I can wokr on when I get time.

I was thinking of doing the Death Korp as Veterans and maybe using some Cadians as conscripts, or maybe warlord 28mm plastic Germans as conscripts. What is the rules (typically) about using non-GW figures in tournaments, or conversions? How much of the model has to be GW?

I just don't see the Death Korp as conscripts with those models, they're too well outfitted.

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 19:49
hehe, know how you feel... same thing happened to me the other day over space marines! you thought about cadians with respirators? if you still wanted GW models, they might go

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 20:00
hehe, know how you feel... same thing happened to me the other day over space marines! you thought about cadians with respirators? if you still wanted GW models, they might go

I thought about that, but I thought the Cadian armor in juxtaposition with the Death Korp uniform looked more high tech. I feel if the Death Korp, or any army dressed like them would have conscripts in a more lower tech and less expensive kit. The respirators tend to come off as a bit more high tech in comparison to the leather Death Korp gas mask.

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 20:03
yeah that is a fair point, only other thought for GW models would be steel legion, *think* they look a bit worse off iirc.

Still Standing
19-09-2012, 20:05
If you want low tech looking models to stand by your Krieg, and you're made of money, consider using Valhallens.

hobbic_c
19-09-2012, 20:06
If you want low tech looking models to stand by your Krieg, and you're made of money, consider using Valhallens.

oooh, that does actually sound like a good idea...

Darth Bobo
19-09-2012, 20:10
Did a little research for starting Mech IG:

CCS, 2 Infantry Squads, 3 chimeras, Demolisher and Codex plus a few extra special weapons from a bits retailer would run around $280 if GW online prices are used.

That woulld build you

CCS, 4 Grenade Launchers, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
LM Demolisher Tank

Total 600 points, approx $280

This would get you into business as a Mechanized Guard and should be effective as long as you are not met with massed flyers, which I would think unlikely at the 600 points level.

Still Standing
19-09-2012, 20:13
That price is horrendous for a 600 point army... I have 4 metal or resin Guard armies built up over the last 6 or 7 years and I never realised until now how expensive they were. Thank you. :(

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 20:14
Actually Steel legion isn't a bad call, I think with a unifying paint scheme they could very well pass for Death Korp conscripts.

13713
19-09-2012, 20:27
Death Korp would be a wicked cool army to build and field, FW prices kinda make me sad pandas when it comes to making that dream a reality. Mind you the hobby is not a cheap one to begin with but it honestly can go through the ceiling fast if you start ordering from FW.

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 20:27
Did a little research for starting Mech IG:

CCS, 2 Infantry Squads, 3 chimeras, Demolisher and Codex plus a few extra special weapons from a bits retailer would run around $280 if GW online prices are used.

That woulld build you

CCS, 4 Grenade Launchers, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
LM Demolisher Tank

Total 600 points, approx $280

This would get you into business as a Mechanized Guard and should be effective as long as you are not met with massed flyers, which I would think unlikely at the 600 points level.'

That price tag is terrifying to me for 600 points ha ha. Guard is no joke on the price tag huh...

Ealdwulf
19-09-2012, 20:28
Did a little research for starting Mech IG:

CCS, 2 Infantry Squads, 3 chimeras, Demolisher and Codex plus a few extra special weapons from a bits retailer would run around $280 if GW online prices are used.

That woulld build you

CCS, 4 Grenade Launchers, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
LM Demolisher Tank

Total 600 points, approx $280

This would get you into business as a Mechanized Guard and should be effective as long as you are not met with massed flyers, which I would think unlikely at the 600 points level.

That price tag is terrifying to me for 600 points ha ha. Guard is no joke on the price tag huh...Thought I guess it wouldn't be too bad built over time and not all at once. What would you add to push that up to the standard 1500 or so?

Also haven't not been in the game for awhile, how would you guys describe guard? Shooty? I played Tau for years and enjoyed them quiet a bit.

13713
19-09-2012, 20:35
Tanks, tanks and more tanks. Or you can do a blob and field a lot of foot soldiers. Either way it will make your wallet cry

Gerod253
19-09-2012, 20:36
Did a little research for starting Mech IG:

CCS, 4 Grenade Launchers, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
Veteran Squad, 3 Melta Guns, Chimera
LM Demolisher Tank

Total 600 points, approx $280

This would get you into business as a Mechanized Guard and should be effective as long as you are not met with massed flyers, which I would think unlikely at the 600 points level.

Here's another idea. Get two Battalian boxes, and a hQ box.

CCS 50+

1st Plat CMD squad, Two infantry Squads and a Heavy Weapons Squad. 190+
2nd Platoon is the same.

You should be able to get 500 points out of that, and have two sentinal kits left over. This is a solid base line group of models that can be used later to expand into an infantry force, or just add chimeras to make it a Mech force. Or, use the same kits to start working on a force centering upon Vet squads. At clost to 100 points a squad they will give you a solid starting point for adding chimeras, or artillery, or valks for Air Cav. Not any cheaper than what was outlined above, but doesn't require bits hunting if your friend isn't into that.

russellmoo
19-09-2012, 20:52
Imperial guard are definitely one of those armies that you have to start with the basics and then slowly add in expensive units over time- to put it another way- an air cav style IG army will run about $640 for 1500pts- Mech guard will run about $100 less for the same points- and I don't want to calculate the cost for an artillery/foot guard type style-

I agree the best way to start would probably be a command squad box and 2 battleforce boxes this will run $265 and will form a basic army that you can then build into any style of guard army- I would just play around with platoon squads versus vet squads first before attaching weapons to the Command squads, and or any specials- you might want to put together most of the models except for the special weapons (just have them run around without arms for a while) until you know what type of special weapon load out you prefer-

13713
19-09-2012, 21:07
I went the route of two Cadian battleforce boxes when I started guard. By the time I was done building them I had researched played a little and was ready for my next investment. I have found that IG is an army that is best built in stages. Each section has a purpose and is part of a greater goal. Each investment bumps you into the next points size allowing you to play bigger games. By the time you tire of guard your army will be big enough to either play smaller specialized forces such as mech, foot, air or a greater force that will allow you to tip your toe into apoc games.

FashaTheDog
20-09-2012, 06:13
Since you are showing interest in the Death Korps of Krieg and their cult of sacrifice, allow one who owns a Krieg army to offer insight.

First and foremost, cost is going to be an issue unless you live in Australia where the pricing for basic GW stuff is insane. There are two ways to deal with this. You can make a small purchase here, say an Infantry squad or a Heavy Mortar and crew, chipping away $50 or so at a time so that over time more and more Krieg are introduced, perhaps alongside a Cadian/Catachan force you either bought new or got a deal on eBay. Alternatively, you go the way I did and just bite the bullet and go all in. Admittedly I had to steal from my boat/opera fund to do this, but I started off with the Company HQ, two Platoon HQs, four Infantry Squads (1 each except firing, which was 2), a trio of lascannon teams, three Heavy Mortars with crew, two Medusi with crew, and a trio of Cyclops. It gave me about 1,200 points of 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, and 2 Heavy Support and at the time cost me about $800-something. Current prices put it closer to a grand. Still, it was a planned purchase where I had taken the time to save for it over a long period of time, mostly. It had one really strong advantage, I had to wait for it and it built anticipation as I was working towards the purchase so when I actually got them, I really wanted to get them looking spectacular and ready to use as quick as possible which gave me a huge painting incentive. It also meant that I could chain paint all of that at once so it was very unified in appearance.

Now, once you start with Krieg by whichever means, if you take them under the Forgeworld list, then there are a few fundamental differences from standard Guard. The first is that they really focus on artillery units and massed infantry, much like the WWI template they are based off of. Subsequently, they lack mobility. Their only transports are designed to move the artillery or five man squads; they lack a general purpose infantry transport like the Chimera. They do have the Hades Breaching Drill, which is an odd unit in that its deep strike entry is also an attack. They seem to have a psychological impact on many foes, but they are predictable and fragile, as is the Engineer squad that must follow it. Krieg also cannot take heavy weapons in their Infantry Squads like Guard, instead they may combine Heavy Weapon Squads with the Infantry, which tends to be somewhat less efficient overall, but with a heavy focus on numbers backed by artillery, it works well. The army also has two rules that make them better in assaults; WS4 across the board and being like stubborn in assaults. It is underestimated by many people how good that is as it makes nearly any unit in your army a "tar pit." Krieg also lacks anti-air and aircraft as a whole. There are no psykers either, so those nifty cards go unused with them. The end effect is that the army is fairly static and will usually take heavy losses, even when they win, but it is usually very template heavy and has a distinct look on the table and feel as you play them.

I am not advocating any way as to how you should proceed, but I thought it useful to share my experiences on the matter. I will say this; if you are seriously looking to Krieg, then be very certain about it as it will be a slow growth army for most budgets. If you have the disposable income to do it and you feel this worth the expense, go for it as what keeps people playing is the interest they have in their army and the models. For most folks, the choice is really a small Krieg force or a larger Cadian/Catachan Guard army. As such the latter is the usual choice for good reason, especially with the eBay deals out there.

Finally, and most important of all: If you do start a Death Korps of Krieg army you MUST READ Dead Men Walking, no exceptions!!! Failure to do so will result in summary execution for dereliction in your duty to the Emperor. Even if you don't start a Krieg army you still should read it.

Cheexsta
20-09-2012, 07:19
That price tag is terrifying to me for 600 points ha ha. Guard is no joke on the price tag huh...Thought I guess it wouldn't be too bad built over time and not all at once. What would you add to push that up to the standard 1500 or so?

Also haven't not been in the game for awhile, how would you guys describe guard? Shooty? I played Tau for years and enjoyed them quiet a bit.
If you can shop around a little, you can actually get some pretty wickedly cheap prices online. You don't even have to go with second-hand stuff, either; there are some retailers out there who can get some great discounts (often around 20% off). A number of good retailers are also sponsors here, so you can start with them to gauge prices. Obviously, you could do the same with other armies and probably get more points for your dollar, but shopping around can really help the wallet.

As for the role of guard, they are almost always more shooty than not. They'd prefer to smash the enemy to pieces at range; I've always found that letting an enemy get within spitting distance means that your men will just fall like a house of cards. You can design a guard army to be good in combat (blob squads + allied Marine battle brothers), but the army is mostly designed for ranged warfare.