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Lord Inquisitor
19-09-2012, 18:40
Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?

AntaresCD
19-09-2012, 19:12
Seems to depend on the wording for the non-warmachine in question's rules. There is a lot of debate and some are in the grey since there isn't anything explicit. Hell, people can't agree if a warmachine's target need to already be in it's front arc to be elligible to be a target before it pivots and shoots...

I don't have the Hellfire cannon's rules in front of me, though, so I can't say much more. I do remember seeing a long thread on this though a few months back...

Durpp
19-09-2012, 19:56
Nope. It fires like a stone thrower, but does not gain the free pivot like a stone thrower.
Deploy it well my friend!

Lord Inquisitor
19-09-2012, 20:20
AntaresCD, the wording is simply "The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower" with some additional rules.

Durpp (and anyone else saying "no"), a further question: where can the target point be (only directly ahead, anywhere in front arc, anywhere in LOS, etc)?

Kayosiv
19-09-2012, 21:07
Stone throwers can fire anywhere within their line of sight (that is outside their minimum range and inside their maximum. So the hellcannon can definitely fire anywhere it can see.

There are 2 trains of thought on whether it can pivot.

1. It cannot pivot for free because the hellcannon is not a war machine. War machines get a free pivot before firing but monsters do not. Being a monster allows the hellcannon to march and charge etc and do things that a war machine cannot do.

2. Under the rules for war machines, it says "before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). This rule only applies to war machines but it specifically is about how war machines fire and the hellcannon "fires like a stonethrower" as per its own rules.

I'm in the camp that would allow the hellcannon to pivot, but not be able to fire at things outside it's line of sight front arc in the shooting phase.

Warrior of Chaos
20-09-2012, 02:39
My thoughts.

1. Not a war machine: so no pivot.
2. Resolves shots taken as a stone thrower (targets would have to be in the front arc due to the lack of a pivot - no line of sight needed). You could fire indirectly just as you could with a regular stone thrower.

Durpp
20-09-2012, 05:31
AntaresCD, the wording is simply "The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower" with some additional rules.

Durpp (and anyone else saying "no"), a further question: where can the target point be (only directly ahead, anywhere in front arc, anywhere in LOS, etc)?

The way my group and I decided on it was that it had to be in the forward arc, but doesn't have to be LOS(because of indirect fire for a stone thrower, not in general.)

Bitten Black Sheep
20-09-2012, 07:26
I have been playing Warhammer since 4th edition. Whilst I can see that the language is a bit sloppy, I cannot see anything that fundamentally changes the rules from previous editions. I even looked them up for fun
4th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
6th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
8th - "...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target...." page 109.
The hellcannon "fires like a stone thrower" pg 66 WoC book, and the FAQ confirms it cannot move and shoot.

We all play that the hellcannon pivots up to 360 to line up on its target and lets rip.
As far as I'm aware this interpretation hasn't been challenged in this country.

ElBeaver
20-09-2012, 08:56
Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?

This is one of these times where you have to simply use common sense. Why, in the first place, should a warmachine pivot before firing at its target? Because most warmachines fire directly forward, hence they should face their target before they fire for "realism". Given the specific case, a Hellcanon is a stonethrower with a magical component, hence it may be able to do a curve shot (everyone knows that only Angelina can do that), but I would argue it does not. It still fires directly forward and should be pivoted, even though it is not technically a warmachine.
I haven't got the empire armybook, but my guess is that the steamtank does not have to pivot before firing because its small canon can turn in place (tanks in WW2 had to turn to fire their big fron canon, but side canons could turn in place afaik). Getting off topic...

Mid'ean
20-09-2012, 11:36
"Fires like" does not give you permission to not follow other rules unless stated so. And none of the units stated above have that in their rules. War machines can pivot and fire. Non war machines unit types can not. Whether it's a giant cannon, over sized pea shooter, or a big ugly shooting giant snowballs/ throwing rocks. It's that simple.

The Low King
20-09-2012, 12:04
If the target is out of line of sight you can indirect fire anyway.

Quinzy
20-09-2012, 12:18
"Fires like" does not give you permission to not follow other rules unless stated so. And none of the units stated above have that in their rules. War machines can pivot and fire. Non war machines unit types can not. Whether it's a giant cannon, over sized pea shooter, or a big ugly shooting giant snowballs/ throwing rocks. It's that simple.

Except it states that when it shoots, it shoots like a war machine. So it shoots like a war machine in every way, including pivoting. Having Monstrous Beast rules does not give it permission to not follow the war machine rules when you are directed to do so.

nurgle5
20-09-2012, 12:18
The hellcannon "fires like a stone thrower" pg 66 WoC book, and the FAQ confirms it cannot move and shoot.

According to the BRB the pivot doesn't count as movement.

Durpp
20-09-2012, 14:55
Only for war machines though I'm pretty sure.
And doesn't it say the machine can fire within its LOS, and its LOS being the barrel/crossbar? (Don't have my BRB in front of me at the moment.)

Also, the Stank for Emp can only shoot its steam cannon directly forward. Shoot, getting off topic, Gah!

Kalandros
20-09-2012, 16:28
Only for war machines though I'm pretty sure.
And doesn't it say the machine can fire within its LOS, and its LOS being the barrel/crossbar? (Don't have my BRB in front of me at the moment.)

Also, the Stank for Emp can only shoot its steam cannon directly forward. Shoot, getting off topic, Gah!

Because its rules clearly state so

hamsterwheel
20-09-2012, 17:39
I personally play it that it cannot pivot and shoot so placement becomes very important and so does making the leadership check at the beginning of the turn as rushing forward will remove even more targets unless I spend another turn moving it back into position, but this also means that anything that specifically mentions war machines within it's rules doesn't include the hell cannon. An example would be that item that gives you a 6+ ward save against war machines.

Djekar
20-09-2012, 17:41
I was in the "yes it can" camp until about 6 months ago, and then something opened my eyes and caused me to firmly re-align myself in the "no it cannot" camp. I suppose this is the part where I should be remembering what that was...

nurgle5
20-09-2012, 22:59
I was in the "yes it can" camp until about 6 months ago, and then something opened my eyes and caused me to firmly re-align myself in the "no it cannot" camp. I suppose this is the part where I should be remembering what that was...

Might be helpful if you could remember! :p

The pivot is in the paragraph "shooting with war machines", it's described as part of the process of firing a warmachine. If the hellcannon says it shoots as a stone thrower, I see no good reason to not follow those rules, especially as there is nothing in the rules saying not to follow the usual rules for firing a stone thrower. I see no rules saying "it shoots like a stone thrower, but...". The FAQ says the hellcannon cannot move and fire, but the pivot is doesn't count as movement as per the rules.

Warrior of Chaos
21-09-2012, 01:19
I think it is important to remember that "fires/shoots as a stone thrower" does not make it a stone thrower. The Hellcannon is a "Monster" for troop type. It gets all the benefits of being a "Monster" and should not gain additional perks for being a "war machine" as well. The free pivot that war machines get is a subtle but IMPORTANT variable that should not be default be slapped on an already good unit. The same would go for a unit such as the Cygor. The loss of a free pivot makes it necessary to pay attention with how you are using the Hellcannon monster if you want to gain the benefit of its shooting attack.

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 07:44
This discussion is honestly absurd. People try and interpret the rules in the strictest possible way instead of using the thing on top of their neck. Obviously it pivots as it fires straight forward (the reason for the pivot in the first place) - if it didn't it would have to curve the shot.
The hellcanon cannot for example "move and shoot" as warmachines normally cannot. It is a monster but cannot make a thunderstomp attack. When shooting at the hellcanon shots are divided as they normally would against a warmachine. If the Hellcanon shoots against a target with a special (ward)-save against warmachines that obviouslly applies. Etc. - it is both a monster and a warmachine, and should quite possibly have been labelled "unique", something we can all hope will be corrected in the soon to come armybook.

AMWOOD co
21-09-2012, 09:19
This discussion is honestly absurd. People try and interpret the rules in the strictest possible way instead of using the thing on top of their neck. Obviously it pivots as it fires straight forward (the reason for the pivot in the first place) - if it didn't it would have to curve the shot.
The hellcanon cannot for example "move and shoot" as warmachines normally cannot. It is a monster but cannot make a thunderstomp attack. When shooting at the hellcanon shots are divided as they normally would against a warmachine. If the Hellcanon shoots against a target with a special (ward)-save against warmachines that obviouslly applies. Etc. - it is both a monster and a warmachine, and should quite possibly have been labelled "unique", something we can all hope will be corrected in the soon to come armybook.

While I agree with your first paragraph (Who remembers when the hellcannon FAQ's said "It fires as a stone thrower!"), your second paragraph needs to be demolished in part.
Move and Shoot: that's right.
Thunderstomp: That's Warshrines that can't Thunderstomp, not Hellcannons.
Randomizing: Where did this come from? Shots against warmachines are against the machine only. The hellcannon can be wounded by incoming cannon fire. They use very different rules.
Saves against warmachines: Yes, it counts here.
Dear Khorne, no! Don't you dare make it Unique!


So, why do I agree that it can pivot? It fires as a stone thrower. "How does a stone thrower fire?" Like a warmachine. "What does that mean?" It means that it has move or shoot, slow to fire, and can pivot as the Firing Warmachines rule specifies. So, if the FAQ verified two of these, what logical reason is there to conclude that the third does not apply?

nurgle5
21-09-2012, 09:43
I think it is important to remember that "fires/shoots as a stone thrower" does not make it a stone thrower.

It doesn't matter that it's not a stone thrower, it fires as a stone thrower. Therefore it should follow all the rules for firing a stone thrower, including the pivot which is part of the rules of firing a stone thrower. If it fires as a stone thrower, there is no reason why it shouldn't fire exactly like a stone thrower, because there is nothing in the rules saying it doesn't.

Your assertion that the hellcannon cannot pivot because it is a monster has no basis in the rules whatsoever.

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 10:17
While I agree with your first paragraph (Who remembers when the hellcannon FAQ's said "It fires as a stone thrower!"), your second paragraph needs to be demolished in part.
Move and Shoot: that's right.
Thunderstomp: That's Warshrines that can't Thunderstomp, not Hellcannons.
Randomizing: Where did this come from? Shots against warmachines are against the machine only. The hellcannon can be wounded by incoming cannon fire. They use very different rules.
Saves against warmachines: Yes, it counts here.
Dear Khorne, no! Don't you dare make it Unique!


So, why do I agree that it can pivot? It fires as a stone thrower. "How does a stone thrower fire?" Like a warmachine. "What does that mean?" It means that it has move or shoot, slow to fire, and can pivot as the Firing Warmachines rule specifies. So, if the FAQ verified two of these, what logical reason is there to conclude that the third does not apply?

My bad on the thunderstomp. But i'm pretty sure you randomize shooting against the hellcanon.

tmarichards
21-09-2012, 11:04
Your assertion that the hellcannon cannot pivot because it is a monster has no basis in the rules whatsoever.

Issue is not that it cannot pivot, because it can. The issue is that it cannot pivot and then shoot, because it's own rules explicitly forbid it from this and a pivot is quite clearly a movement.

The Hellcannon "fires as a stone thrower", for which we must check the rules for "Firing a Stone Thrower" which can be found on pg 114. This details how to resolve a stone thrower's shot, and therefore how to also fire the Hellcannon.

The argument that it can pivot because a war machine can pivot, on the other hand, has no basis in the rules. Pivoting and shooting is an exception to the normal rules, which is specifically given to units with the unit type of "War Machine"- not, "units which fire like a war machine". The Hellcannon is a Monster, not a War Machine, and therefore even though it fires like a particular type of war machine there is no real basis for assuming the special rule carries over beyond wishful thinking.

The Special Rules section on pg 66 specifically mentions this- "it may seem obvious, but unless otherwise stated a model does not have a special rule". Units with the War Machine type are given a special dispensation to pivot and shoot as per pg 114, Monsters have no such exception.

nurgle5
21-09-2012, 12:43
Being a warmachine is not a special rule, the process for firing a warmachine is not a special rule. The pivot is in the paragraph "shooting with warmachines", it is not a special rule given to warmachines, it is not a rules exemption given to warmachines, it is not a an ability a warmachine possess, but part of the process of firing one. This pivot doesn't count as movement as per the rules. The hellcannon fires as a stone thrower, a type of warmachine; where in the rules is it exempted from following the usual firing process? If the rules say "fires as a stone thrower" surely that follows all the normal processes of firing a stone thrower, including the paragraph "shooting with warmachines" (which applies to all warmachines)?

Quinzy
21-09-2012, 12:55
A Hellcannon fires as a stonethrower. A stonethrower is a war machine. Therefore the Hellcannon fires as a war machine.

"...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). [Core RB, p. 109]

tmarichards
21-09-2012, 13:21
I make a well reasoned post containing several quotes from the rulebook, and instead get contradictory two posts where the "argument" is just blind rhetoric that makes no sense.

Yup, this is definitely Warseer.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 13:46
For the record. No where under the rules for firing a stone throwerdoes it say anything resembling that it "fires like a warmachine". In fact it says:


To fire a stone thrower, take the small round template anywhere completly within the stone thowrer's line of sight, outside the minimum range, and inside the maximum range.

The rest of the section deals with placing the template and scatter. Given that the words "like a war machine" or "pivot" don't appear amy where i can only conclude it does not pivot. Despite my logical mind wanting it to.

Quinzy
21-09-2012, 13:51
I find it disgustingly rude that you attempt to dismiss a logical and referenced counter-argument to your own as nonsensical and blindly rhetorical.
You have made a statement, with reference to support your answer. I have made a counterstatement with reference to support my answer.

I'm not going to grace you with any further discussion, as you are unreasonable and brusque.
This is definitely Warseer.

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 13:56
I make a well reasoned post containing several quotes from the rulebook, and instead get contradictory two posts where the "argument" is just blind rhetoric that makes no sense.

Yup, this is definitely Warseer.

Quoting the rules does not make it true. And you are wrong.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 13:59
The section is called "firing with warmachines". The hellcannon is not a warmachine, the stone thrower is. The hellcannon fires like a stone thrower, for which there is a whole section called "firing a stone thrower". In said section there is no reference to the rules governing warmachines.

The argument that these two things have to go together is false logic. They are in two seperate sections, one governs how a stone thrower works. One covers shooting with units labeled warmachines.

Quinzy
21-09-2012, 14:13
I was initially directing my statement towards tmarichards, rather than yourself.

Regardless... are you suggesting that a stone thrower does not pivot before it fires?
If it does, then the Hellcannon pivots, as it fires just like a stone thrower, pivoting and all.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 14:15
Also being a warmachine IS a special rule. Just like monster, monsttous infantry, monstrous cavalry, warbeats, etc. Each one has rules that goven them seperate from the others. Tmrichards being obtuse aside, his argument is sound.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 14:21
Quinzy, the two are not linked. One deals with warmachines, which the stone thrower is. Because that section applies to units with the label warmachines.

If the hellcannon said it was a warmachine it would follow those rules as well. Or if it said it fires like a warmachine. But it doesn't so why would i apply those rules?

nurgle5
21-09-2012, 14:31
The Hellcannon is not war machine, but a stone thrower is. A stone thrower uses the rules on p.109 when firing. A hellcannon fires as a stone thrower. Therefore, a Hellcannon uses those rules as if it were a stone thrower, despite the fact it is not a warmachine.


Also being a warmachine IS a special rule. Just like monster, monsttous infantry, monstrous cavalry, warbeats, etc. Each one has rules that goven them seperate from the others. Tmrichards being obtuse aside, his argument is sound.

They are unit types, not special rules. Each unit type has it's own special rules, The only shooting special rules warmachines have is Slow to Fire and Move or Fire.

Quinzy
21-09-2012, 14:33
And a Hellcannon fires as if it were a stone thrower, which is a war machine. I can see the other side of the argument. However, I think it is as ridiculous as you think my argument is.

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 14:33
A Hellcannon fires as a stonethrower. A stonethrower is a war machine. Therefore the Hellcannon fires as a war machine.

"...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). [Core RB, p. 109]

and for those with limited brain-function: a stonethrower pivots before firing, hence a hellcanon pivots before firing (as it fires as a stonethrower).

theunwantedbeing
21-09-2012, 14:39
Cygor
Hurl attack
the Cygor may make a shooting attack each turn as if it were a stone thrower

Hellcannon
Doomfire
The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower

Those are the rules.
So how come firing as a stone thrower doesn't let you pivot, stone throwers get to pivot when they fire afterall.

Last Edition
21-09-2012, 14:57
Honestly, nobody is correct due to the rules are so ambiguous it not even funny. As written I would say no, it can't pivot, but if you look closer on the rules, a no would mean a Hellcannon could stand and shoot as "Move or Fire" and "Slow to Fire" are described under war machines and not shooting with a stone thrower on page 114.

But:

FAQ -
Q. Can the Hellcannon Stand and Shoot against chargers? (p66)
A. No.

So we must assume the Hellcannon has the Slow to Fire special rule, which also means it has Move or Fire special rule.

FAQ -
Q. Can the Hellcannon move and fire? (p66)
A. No.

This means it follows the rules "Shooting with War Machines" on page 109, which incidentally describes the war machine can pivot before it fires. Therefore I would conclude that it can pivot before firing.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 15:06
Think i have stated my case quite clearly, but here it is again and for the last time.

Hellcannon, et al. Say they fire like a stone thrower for which there are very specific rules. In those rules it says nothing about warmachines or pivoting.
The reason a stonethrower can pivot is because it has the unit type warmachine, and there is a section called "shooting with warmachines". I contend that one section has nothing to do with the other, and the shoots like a stone thrower only refers to the "firing a stonethrower" section.

But i think we will have to agree to disagree.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 15:10
Last Edition has presented a strong argument, but the most piongant thing he said was how abiguous the rules are.

I generally find it is better to be more restrictive than less. It tends to be less abusive.

Lord Inquisitor
21-09-2012, 15:49
I've stayed out of this before adding my opinion but time I think to wade in. I'm surprised at the big debate - I was sure there was a FAQ that said Hellcannon can pivot (perhaps an older one?) and as far as I know everyone I've ever played pivots their hellcannon. But I couldn't find the FAQ and after a discussion about Ironblasters pivoting, I thought I'd post the question.

The big problem is that the rules seem to refer to two things: unit type War Machine, and "war machine weapons". For example, I don't buy that the Ironcurse Icon doesn't work on hellcannon shots, because it gives a ward save against "war machine weapons" not "attacks from war machines". Really the rules should have been written in two sections, one for unit type War Machine and one for war machine weapons, which could have been given another name, for example, Siege Weapons. I'll call them Siege Weapons for the purposes of this post.

I like Last Edition's argument, that the "shooting with war machines" box MUST apply to siege weapons. I have argued this before, when the Ogre Kingdoms came out, people were saying that since an Ironblaster didn't have the Slow to Fire rule, they could stand and shoot with it. Clearly not intended! But the counter-argument was that the "shooting with war machines" section applied to Ironblasters, including the Slow to Fire and Move or Fire rules (and, incidentally, the pivot). Otherwise why would the Ironblaster (and Scraplauncher, Cygor, etc) need a special rule to allow them to move and fire? And sure enough, the FAQ confirmed that Ironblasters couldn't stand and shoot.

To give another example, a dwarf war machine can be upgraded to have a pistol on one of the crew. The pistol has Quick to Fire. Can the dwarf machine stand and shoot? If you read it as "the unit (war machine) has slow to fire" then you have a problem - both quick to fire and slow to fire! But if you read it that the war machine weapon (i.e. the siege weapon) has slow to fire not the unit, then you can stand and shoot with the pistol but not the cannon. Makes sense!

Finally, I'd like to point out that firing the hellcannon or Ironblaster requires you to count it as a war machine for the rules to make sense. For example:

Stone throwers: "To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight," p114
Cannons: "Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight"

If hellcannon and ironblaster are not counted as "war machines" for the purposes of firing their weapons does this mean I can fire at targets out of line of sight? :cheese:

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 17:38
Think i have stated my case quite clearly, but here it is again and for the last time.

Hellcannon, et al. Say they fire like a stone thrower for which there are very specific rules. In those rules it says nothing about warmachines or pivoting.
The reason a stonethrower can pivot is because it has the unit type warmachine, and there is a section called "shooting with warmachines". I contend that one section has nothing to do with the other, and the shoots like a stone thrower only refers to the "firing a stonethrower" section.

But i think we will have to agree to disagree.

By your logic you cannot utilize a special save against war machines against the shot from a hellcanon as it is not a war machine but a stone thrower + what "Lord Inquisitor" said!

The Low King
21-09-2012, 17:42
What a strange argument.

A warmachine has no front arc. The targeting requirements when shooting a stone thrower are:
"take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the warmachines line of sight, outside of the stonethrower minimum range and within its maximum range"
So:
-Within its Line of sight (measured from the crossbar/barrel)
-Outside its minimum range
-Inside its maximum range

Line of sight just means you can trace an unbroken line from the model to the target, front arcs are a seperate targetting restriction. In the shooting section it specifically states that a target must lie within line of sight AND in the front arc. But warmachines fire differently (it specifically says this), they follow their own rules.

A warmachine does not need to be pivoted towards its target to fire, all the pivoting does is help make it clear what the target is and simulate some kind of realism.

So, whether you want to say the shot curves, bounces or just pivot the warmachine is up to you, it has no bearing on the game.

theunwantedbeing
21-09-2012, 19:08
A warmachine has no front arc.
Please could you remind us of where this is stated?


A warmachine does not need to be pivoted towards its target to fire, all the pivoting does is help make it clear what the target is and simulate some kind of realism.
Please could you remind us of where this is stated?

Kalandros
21-09-2012, 19:26
For an unwanted being, you sure want a lot of things! :D

Its just weird to have the "monstrous war machine" (might be this should be a new unit type) shift his arc of sight - like a reform, but I guess it doesn't really matter as after it has shot, its the opponent's turn anyway - if it just exposed a flank, gimme!

The Low King
21-09-2012, 19:32
Please could you remind us of where this is stated?

1) a units front arc is measured from the corners of its base, a warmachine has no base.
2) At no point in the warmachines rules does facing mean anything, LoS has nothing to do with arcs of sight.


Please could you remind us of where this is stated?

You did read my post right? i just went through the stonethrower rules to explain that pivoting makes no difference to anything in-game. Also, quote of of context much?


Care to actually respond to my points rather than attempting to ignore them?

AMWOOD co
21-09-2012, 19:35
Think i have stated my case quite clearly, but here it is again and for the last time.

Hellcannon, et al. Say they fire like a stone thrower for which there are very specific rules. In those rules it says nothing about warmachines or pivoting.
The reason a stonethrower can pivot is because it has the unit type warmachine, and there is a section called "shooting with warmachines". I contend that one section has nothing to do with the other, and the shoots like a stone thrower only refers to the "firing a stonethrower" section.

But i think we will have to agree to disagree.

Well, you have made your case clearly, the problem is that it is both short sighted and, to put it bluntly, wrong. GW had addressed this before ("It fires as a stone thrower") on the end of the Move or Shoot and Stand and Shoot questions, but decided to delete the unnecessary and demeaning (it's like they're stating, 'That's how a stone thrower shoots, duh!') add ons to the answer. However, there is one other thing we can add to this.

Most veterans of Warseer know that the Third Eye of Tzeentch FAQ is used as a reference to other armies in how to treat a Lore Attribute and that the Book of Secrets FAQ is also universally applied to other armies for items that make characters Wizards. What you seem to be missing is that there is a precident for stating that you use the rules for firing a warmachine with all things that fire like something that is a warmachine.


Q: Do the Scraplauncher Catapult, Cannon of the Skytitans
and Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice have the Slow to Fire
special rule? In addition, can ward saves from the Ironcurse Icon be
taken against Wounds caused by these weapons? (p49, 51, 55)
A: Yes to both questions.

So, all the Ogre weapons, which are not warmachines, follow a rule that is only listed in that blurb on p109 and even count as a warmachine when using these attacks. Is there a reason to believe this doesn't apply to all other examples (ie. the same way that Third Eye's or Book of Secrets FAQs are applied to all other examples) beyond wishful thinking?

Lord Inquisitor
21-09-2012, 19:37
It could be argued that War Machines don't need arcs of sight because they MUST pivot. And while pivoting may be largely cosmetic for war machines, it does make clear they have 360-degree shooting arc. I get your point about line of sight, but you're going to have to go a long way to persuade anyone that a cannon can draw los behind itself without pivoting!

What is your point though? I don't know whether you're arguing for or against non-war machine units with war machine weapons pivoting.

AMWOOD co
21-09-2012, 19:45
1) a units front arc is measured from the corners of its base, a warmachine has no base.
2) At no point in the warmachines rules does facing mean anything, LoS has nothing to do with arcs of sight.

You did read my post right? i just went through the stonethrower rules to explain that pivoting makes no difference to anything in-game. Also, quote of of context much?

And yet, there's no reason to believe that the spell Sneaky Stabbin' won't allow me to reroll hits and wounds if I charge the rear of a cannon. Indeed, the warmachine rules only say that they have not flanks or rear for 'combat resolution' (read p110 for yourself).

Bolt Throwers also state that they use all the normal targetting rules, which includes front arc. Obviously, war machines do have a front arc. Just because some don't use them for targetting purposes (supposedly, I know the issue isn't resolved) doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also, some older models also don't have a base. My pump wagon doesn't, nor does my friend's Steggadon. Are you saying that these models have no flank or rear since they have no base?

The Low King
21-09-2012, 19:49
Im not talking about cannons. I probably shouldnt have even mentioned that warmchines dont have front arcs.

I was quoting the stone thrower rules that just require you to place the template within line of sight, no front arc requirements.

Warrior of Chaos
21-09-2012, 19:50
...I generally find it is better to be more restrictive than less. It tends to be less abusive.

^This. If the rules say you can....great! If they say you can't...that is fine too. If they just don't say specifically, error on the side of caution until a FAQ gets coughed up. Just my thoughts.

1. It fires as a stone thrower. Got it. You'd get to use the Iron Curse icon and whatnot because the shot is treated as having come from a stone thrower.
2. It is still a monster. The pivot is a benefit of unit type, not how it shoots. So...as much as I may love the idea; No pivot.

Like in golf...play it where it lies! LOL;)

The Low King
21-09-2012, 20:04
And yet, there's no reason to believe that the spell Sneaky Stabbin' won't allow me to reroll hits and wounds if I charge the rear of a cannon. Indeed, the warmachine rules only say that they have not flanks or rear for 'combat resolution' (read p110 for yourself).

Actually there is a very good argument against that. You cant close the door agaisnt warmachines, i could have a charge lined up in the flank but use the pivot to get into the rear.


Bolt Throwers also state that they use all the normal targetting rules, which includes front arc. Obviously, war machines do have a front arc. Just because some don't use them for targetting purposes (supposedly, I know the issue isn't resolved) doesn't mean they don't exist.

Great, unfortunatly we are talking about stonethrowers (although i still disagree with your claim, this just isnt the place)


Also, some older models also don't have a base. My pump wagon doesn't, nor does my friend's Steggadon. Are you saying that these models have no flank or rear since they have no base?

No. It states at the begining of the troop type section that with models that have no base you either mount them on a base of an appropriate size or pretend there is a base. It later says that warmachines have no bases. Therefore warmachines are the only exception to this rule as they have no bases.




Fortunatly, whether im right or wrong regarding warmachines having front arcs, it means nothing when fireing stonethrowers as being in the front arc is not a targetting restriction.

Lord Inquisitor
21-09-2012, 20:18
The wording I quoted above is very similar for stone throwers and cannons. The point here is no arc is referenced because it isn't needed. The war machines always fire directly ahead.

Which is an argument for pivoting those non-war machine war machines. It resolves the question of what arc they can fire in!

ElBeaver
21-09-2012, 20:56
The wording I quoted above is very similar for stone throwers and cannons. The point here is no arc is referenced because it isn't needed. The war machines always fire directly ahead.

Which is an argument for pivoting those non-war machine war machines. It resolves the question of what arc they can fire in!

not to forget the "realism" in a warmachine, almost without exception‚ fires directly ahead, hence it "needs" to pivot.

belgarath97
21-09-2012, 22:59
What a strange argument.

snip...

A warmachine does not need to be pivoted towards its target to fire, all the pivoting does is help make it clear what the target is and simulate some kind of realism.

So, whether you want to say the shot curves, bounces or just pivot the warmachine is up to you, it has no bearing on the game.


The difference is the hellcannon is a monster and as such can be flanked, and clearly has a front arc. Tus the pivot is important to establish with direction it is facing.

Kalandros
22-09-2012, 00:31
Some war machines come packed with a square base nowadays I believe.

Fubar
22-09-2012, 07:41
The reason Warhammer is starting to annoy the hell out of me in one simple thread!
Hellcannon shoots like a stone thrower therefore follows rules for a stone thrower (including pivot before firing)

Nothing more to see here move along.

The Low King
22-09-2012, 10:53
The wording I quoted above is very similar for stone throwers and cannons. The point here is no arc is referenced because it isn't needed. The war machines always fire directly ahead.

Which is an argument for pivoting those non-war machine war machines. It resolves the question of what arc they can fire in!

Where does it say in the stonethrower rules that it only fires directly ahead?
Though i do agree that it is an argument for pivoting, i suppose we are arguing for the same thing, just in different ways.


The difference is the hellcannon is a monster and as such can be flanked, and clearly has a front arc. Tus the pivot is important to establish with direction it is facing.

Great. That still has no bearing on its shooting because there is no front arc requirement when fireing a stonethrower.


Please find me a clause in the stonethrower rules that says the target needs to be in its front arc or that it has to be facing where it wants to shoot. For charges, BS shooting and magic it explicitly states that the target must be in the front arc AND line of sight. Warmchines have no front arc requirement.

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 12:05
Where does it say in the stonethrower rules that it only fires directly ahead?
Though i do agree that it is an argument for pivoting, i suppose we are arguing for the same thing, just in different ways.



Great. That still has no bearing on its shooting because there is no front arc requirement when fireing a stonethrower.


Please find me a clause in the stonethrower rules that says the target needs to be in its front arc or that it has to be facing where it wants to shoot. For charges, BS shooting and magic it explicitly states that the target must be in the front arc AND line of sight. Warmchines have no front arc requirement.

On page 39 section 2: choosing a target.

The Low King
22-09-2012, 12:29
On page 39 section 2: choosing a target.

Those arnt the rules for warmachines.

ElBeaver
22-09-2012, 13:19
are we all playing the same game???? :D

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 13:20
Well spotted, but it is the rules for shooting and War Machines shoot. War Machines have no rules which allow them to ignore all shooting rules starting on page 38, they just have additional shooting rules. Rules for a unit type does not supersede the rules for shooting if that unit type wants to shoot. Its like saying: I have an infantry model with a bow with some unique shooting rules, does this allow me to ignore all shooting rules not mentioned in my bows' description?

The Low King
22-09-2012, 13:31
Well spotted, but it is the rules for shooting and War Machines shoot. War Machines have no rules which allow them to ignore all shooting rules starting on page 38, they just have additional shooting rules. Rules for a unit type does not supersede the rules for shooting if that unit type wants to shoot. Its like saying: I have an infantry model with a bow with some unique shooting rules, does this allow me to ignore all shooting rules not mentioned in my bows' description?

Great point, unfortunatly you missed a rather key bit:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108)"

Seems rather clear to me.

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 13:43
You should finish that quote with the entire paragraph...

The Low King
22-09-2012, 13:56
"However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun"

So? all it is saying is that some rules are similar.

Rules that the warmachine section uses that are also in the shooting section:
-Maximum and minimum ranges
-Shooting into combat
-To hit penalties (for bolt throwers)
-Panic from casulaties
-Hits inflicting multiple wounds
-Wound distribution

All those are specified and explained in the warmachine section but also explained in more detail in the shooting section. That is all it is refering to.

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 14:27
"However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun"

So? all it is saying is that some rules are similar.

Rules that the warmachine section uses that are also in the shooting section:
-Maximum and minimum ranges
-Shooting into combat
-To hit penalties (for bolt throwers) But for Grapeshot. Do you not suffer any modifiers for shooting units out of short range, behind cover, etc?
-Panic from casulaties. Not covered in War Machine section.
-Hits inflicting multiple wounds
-Wound distribution

All those are specified and explained in the warmachine section but also explained in more detail in the shooting section. That is all it is refering to.

War Machines follow, and are still bound by normal shooting rules, if not mentioned in their special rules. Otherwise, War Machines would not need special rules like Slow to Fire, because nowhere in the war machine section does it say they can stand and shoot.

The Low King
22-09-2012, 14:38
War Machines follow, and are still bound by normal shooting rules, if not mentioned in their special rules.
.

Why are you ignoring the passage that says they specifically do not follow the same rules?


Otherwise, War Machines would not need special rules like Slow to Fire, because nowhere in the war machine section does it say they can stand and shoot.

Doesnt say they can stand and shoot in the shooting section either.

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 14:54
Why are you ignoring the passage that says they specifically do not follow the same rules?
Because they are not saying you are allowed to ignore normal shooting rules, just that special weapons (not common weapons) are covered in their own chapter. And, they even follow-up by saying "However, even the collosal trebuchet (war machine) is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow..."


Doesnt say they can stand and shoot in the shooting section either.
Stand and shoot refers to page 38 (shooting)

The Low King
22-09-2012, 15:26
Because they are not saying you are allowed to ignore normal shooting rules, just that special weapons (not common weapons) are covered in their own chapter. And, they even follow-up by saying "However, even the collosal trebuchet (war machine) is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow..."

Having just complained that i didnt quote the entire paragraph, dont try to cut off half the sentence.

The full paragraph goes:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108). However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun."

To analyse:
-The section covers common weapons and most troops types
-Warmachines and other peculiar devices are not included in this
-They are covered under their own section
-However, these weapons still have some similar rules
-So its is worth reading these rules to better undertsand the warmachine specific ones


It is very specifically saying that the normal shooting rules dont apply to warmachines.


Stand and shoot refers to page 38 (shooting)

It says: "see the shooting phase on page 38 for more details on shooting attacks". Not that only thing that follow those paticularl shooting rules may stand and shoot.

Last Edition
22-09-2012, 16:12
Having just complained that i didnt quote the entire paragraph, dont try to cut off half the sentence.
The quote had already been given this thread... sigh


The full paragraph goes:

"This section covers the shooting rules for common weapons and the majority of troop types. War machines and other, more peculiar, devices of destruction are covered in their own chapter (begining on page 108). However, even the collosal trebuchet is governed by many of the same rules as the humble bow and arrow, so its worth reading through this section before unlimbering your cannon or organ gun."

To analyse:
-The section covers common weapons and most troops types
-Warmachines and other peculiar devices are not included in this
-They are covered under their own section
-However, these weapons still have some similar rules
-So its is worth reading these rules to better undertsand the warmachine specific ones


It is very specifically saying that the normal shooting rules dont apply to warmachines.



It says: "see the shooting phase on page 38 for more details on shooting attacks". Not that only thing that follow those paticularl shooting rules may stand and shoot.

If this is how you interpreter the rules, then Cannons can fire grapeshots without modifiers, and Hellblasters suddenly got a lot better as they also do not suffer any modifiers for shooting.. I let advanced rules overwrite basic rules, but where advanced rules, for a type of weapon used in the shooting phase, don't cover how to proceed, I refer to the basic rules.

Shooting, starting on page 38 - Basic Rules
War Machines, starting on page 108 - Advanced rules.

The Low King
22-09-2012, 16:50
The quote had already been given this thread... sigh


Then copying and pasting it is easy.


If this is how you interpreter the rules, then Cannons can fire grapeshots without modifiers, and Hellblasters suddenly got a lot better as they also do not suffer any modifiers for shooting.. I let advanced rules overwrite basic rules, but where advanced rules, for a type of weapon used in the shooting phase, don't cover how to proceed, I refer to the basic rules.

Shooting, starting on page 38 - Basic Rules
War Machines, starting on page 108 - Advanced rules.

Well, i dont have the empire book so i cant comment on Hellblasters.

But for the cannon grapeshot rules it says to use the normal rules for shooting to select a target.

Lord Inquisitor
22-09-2012, 17:50
I seem to have missed why this is important. A bolt thrower uses largely normal BS rules, but it still is covered by the "shooting with war machines" rules like slow to fire, move or fire and pivot.

I can upgrade my soul grinder to have a bolt thrower. Presumably I can't stand and shoot with it? But if the slow to fire rule from "shooting with war machines" applies, wouldn't the pivot rule?

Warrior of Chaos
23-09-2012, 20:15
... But if the slow to fire rule from "shooting with war machines" applies, wouldn't the pivot rule?

The pivot rule is a function of unit type; not how it shoots. The Soul Grinder is not a war machine for unit type so you do not get the pivot (but it does have thunderstomp if that is any consolation).;)

I see a lot of folks trying to get this all or none mentality regarding things that can "shoot like::insert war machine here:::". Resolve shots taken like the described war machine. Remember to note which rules are part shooting like a war machine (whichever one), and which ones you get because of unit type. Anyway, my best answer is play it how you and your opponent can agree. I see this topic is highly divided and it will probably stay that way without a FAQ to clarify.

T10
24-09-2012, 17:52
Quick and perhaps seemingly obvious question here.

Can a hellcannon pivot before firing? This question can be phrased more generally, can a non-war machine unit that fires like a war machine (cygor, ironblaster, thundertusk, stank) pivot before firing?

It either shoots exactly like a warmachine (pivot and all) or it shoots like a normal model at anything it can see in its forward arc.

-T10

belgarath97
24-09-2012, 19:19
It either shoots exactly like a warmachine (pivot and all) or it shoots like a normal model at anything it can see in its forward arc.

-T10
And i kindly disagree as nowhere in the rules referenced in the hellcannon entry says it fires like a warmachine. However continuing this debate seems pointless, those of us who view shoot like a stone thrower as seperate from shooting like a warmachine aren't likly to be persuaded and thosenwho diagree are equally unlikely. It's a shame really, but in the end it comes down to GW's refusal to be consistant. If the faq had said fire likes a stone thrower includes the shooting with a warmachine rules... end of argument. But instead the address individually stand and and shoot, and move or fire. Some use that to make the case that it follows that they pivot, but it can be argued the deliberatly left that out...

This is probably the last i'!l say on the matter, good luck with the debate.

dms505
25-09-2012, 15:15
Maybe I missed something but has no one mentioned that if the Hellcannon can't pivot then it could almost never fire? If it cannon move and fire and even a pivot is a move then it would have to take a full turn to line up and then hope that the next turn the enemy was still lined up. That or it never needs to pivot, thus can fire in a 360 degree arch without having to turn. I has to be one or the other. There is no way they would expect it to use up a full turn to line up to a target that could easily move away.

sulla
26-09-2012, 05:19
Maybe I missed something but has no one mentioned that if the Hellcannon can't pivot then it could almost never fire? If it cannon move and fire and even a pivot is a move then it would have to take a full turn to line up and then hope that the next turn the enemy was still lined up. That or it never needs to pivot, thus can fire in a 360 degree arch without having to turn. I has to be one or the other. There is no way they would expect it to use up a full turn to line up to a target that could easily move away.So maybe the moral of the story is 'It sucks to be hit by the hellcannon and lose 20 fellows in a single shot, so any chance to limit it's power will be seized upon" ;)

Harwammer
28-09-2012, 21:02
It seems like all the technicalities have already been aired, which is normally my favourite part of a rules discussion on the forums.

On the table, however, I fire mine the same as I do for my OnG rock lobbers. All the way from selecting my target to rolling to wound. When rolling with friends at home sometimes it's better to just grab some more beers/tea and snacks rather than get bogged down in the details.

GrandmasterWang
05-10-2012, 01:35
This hellcannon debate also applies to cygors and arachnarok flingers correct?(monsters that fire like stne throwers)

Assuming they follow all the rules for throwers incl the pivot.... Then they can move up, turn 180 degrees and fire backwards correct?

Warrior of Chaos
05-10-2012, 03:27
GrandmasterWang I'll try to keep it brief;

There are two major schools of thought.

1. Hellcannon IS a warmachine AND monster (because it fires as a stonethrower) and you can pivot and fire just as if it were a stonethrower by the rules.

2. Hellcannon IS ONLY a monster and cannot pivot, but otherwise fires as a stonethrower in it's front arc (per shooting).

EDIT 3. It is only a monster, but uses ALL relevant shooting rules that apply to a stone thrower, including pivot. <--Seems to be the most popular point of view.


There a many nuanced and good arguments regarding the topic and it would be valid to debate the same points regarding the Cygors and Arachnaroks. You will just have to figure out what you think and find a happy medium with those you game with. I do not think we'll be getting a FAQ on this anytime soon.

GrandmasterWang
05-10-2012, 04:29
Cheers for the response. Im probably in the no pivot camp but I can see reasons for both. Ive never complained about a hellcannon pivot and often forget its a monster. Likewise I,doubt we will get a faq

LiddellHart
05-10-2012, 08:20
Third school of thought: it is only a monster, but uses ALL relevant shooting rules that apply to a stone thrower, including pivot.

My vote for this one.

ElBeaver
05-10-2012, 08:48
Third school of thought: it is only a monster, but uses ALL relevant shooting rules that apply to a stone thrower, including pivot.

My vote for this one.

What many people have argued for if you bothered reading the thread.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Asensur
05-10-2012, 09:44
Any model that is not a war machine but shoots "as" one must pivot to face their target.

Pivoting is part of shooting a war machine.

1.Choose target according with restrictions

2.Pivot to face target

3.Roll to hit and wound (templates in case of stonethrower/cannon)

Also, restrictions applied when choosing target depend of the warmachine the unit shoots "as"

Bolt Throwers ("according to normal rules of shooting")
-Front arc
-Line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit
-Maximum distance

Cannons
-No front arc
-Line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit (if there is the chance of any of these units to be hit when the shot is scattered, the target unit/point is not valid)
-Maximum distance

Cannons/Grapeshot ("according to normal rules of shooting")
-Front arc
-Line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit
-Maximum distance

Flamethrowers
-No front arc
-Line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit (but can hit those units if shot is scattered)
-No maximum distance

Stone Throwers
-No front arc
-Line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit (but can hit those units if shot is scattered)
-Maximum distance

Stone Throwers/Indirect hit
-No front arc
-No line of Sight
-Not friendly or engaged unit (but can hit those units if shot is scattered)
-Maximum distance

theunwantedbeing
05-10-2012, 09:48
What many people have argued for if you bothered reading the thread.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

You'de sound a lot less condescending if you didn't have that last bit about what you were using to type the message out.

Sent from my Packard Bell using my Packard Bell 6301N keyboard

Harwammer
05-10-2012, 09:59
Theunwantedbeing: Those 'tags' are inserted automatically by the Tapatalk app. I believe there is an option to deactivate the addition of that tag within the app. I'd imagine most people would use this option as other posters don't like seeing these lines repeatedly spammed.

ElBeaver: if you look a few posts up you'll see Liddellhart was adding to Warrior of Chaos's summary of the thread so far. Liddellhart's interjection was important to ensure the summary included this third popular position.

LiddellHart
05-10-2012, 15:50
Although I value my own opinions quite highly, I wouldn't go that far to call them "a school of thought".
:D

That was exactly what I meant Harwammer, thanks.

Warrior of Chaos
05-10-2012, 18:06
Theunwantedbeing: Those 'tags' are inserted automatically by the Tapatalk app. I believe ... Liddellhart's interjection was important to ensure the summary included this third popular position.

Yes quite so. Was typing quick and forgot the third option. Liddell filled in the blank.:)

The Low King
05-10-2012, 18:40
This hellcannon debate also applies to cygors and arachnarok flingers correct?(monsters that fire like stne throwers)

Assuming they follow all the rules for throwers incl the pivot.... Then they can move up, turn 180 degrees and fire backwards correct?

If you follow the idea that it can pivot as per the warmachine rules, then, unless it specifically says in the Cygor/flinger rules that it can move and fire, it has the move or fire special rule. If it does say so, then yes, it can do that.


GrandmasterWang I'll try to keep it brief;

There are two major schools of thought.

1. Hellcannon IS a warmachine AND monster (because it fires as a stonethrower) and you can pivot and fire just as if it were a stonethrower by the rules.

2. Hellcannon IS ONLY a monster and cannot pivot, but otherwise fires as a stonethrower in it's front arc (per shooting).

EDIT 3. It is only a monster, but uses ALL relevant shooting rules that apply to a stone thrower, including pivot. <--Seems to be the most popular point of view.



And the idea i have been arguing; it doesnt matter if you can pivot, Stonethrowers have no front arc requirements.

Warrior of Chaos
05-10-2012, 19:02
And the idea i have been arguing; it doesnt matter if you can pivot, Stonethrowers have no front arc requirements.

So you pretty much fall in either category 1 or 3...or some slightly modified version of either. I see the validity of how a bunch of different people think on this, and to tell you all the truth I am torn on what to think. I generally lean towards more restrictive to prevent abuse on things, but all of you have good points!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________

I have an interesting scenario to propose for those reading. Forgive me if I don't know all of the nuances for Ogres. One of the big Ogres creatures (Stonehorn of Thundertusk) can be mounted with a crew that has a "crossbow" thingy which fires as a bolt thrower. Here is the question: the troop type is "Monster" with fires as a "bolt thrower" for one of the crew. Would the big beastie get a free pivot to bring the bolt thrower to bear on a target?

Last Edition
05-10-2012, 21:10
I have an interesting scenario to propose for those reading. Forgive me if I don't know all of the nuances for Ogres. One of the big Ogres creatures (Stonehorn of Thundertusk) can be mounted with a crew that has a "crossbow" thingy which fires as a bolt thrower. Here is the question: the troop type is "Monster" with fires as a "bolt thrower" for one of the crew. Would the big beastie get a free pivot to bring the bolt thrower to bear on a target?
Harpoon Launcher, which you are referring to does not fire as a bolt thrower. It does however, have the more or fire rule unless the wielder is mounted on a Stonehorn/Thundertusk - maybe thats what you have mixed up?

Stonehorns can move and fire with all their weapons though, which means this ruling does not affect them as much.

Warrior of Chaos
05-10-2012, 22:09
Harpoon Launcher, which you are referring to does not fire as a bolt thrower. It does however, have the more or fire rule unless the wielder is mounted on a Stonehorn/Thundertusk - maybe thats what you have mixed up?

Ah that may be what I am mixing up. I could have sworn Ogres had some fires as bolt thrower weapons...maybe I'm thinking the old book?. Getting senile with age...

Harwammer
10-10-2012, 16:07
Out of interest, which is more abusive; allowing a hellcannon to shoot anything in LoS (not just front arc) without pivoting (thus it doesn't wreck it's positioning by shooting) OR allowing a hell cannon to pivot before it shoots (allowing it to change it's facing when it would otherwise have to choose between altering it's position or shooting)?

belgarath97
18-10-2012, 16:48
Having read through this again, I don't think this has been mentioned yet. From the FAQ.


Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of
units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

So if you want to pivot go ahead, counts as movement though. So you can't shoot. Based on this I clearly think the Hellcannon, and all other shoots like ... creatures cannot pivot and fire, unless they can move AND fire.

Lord Inquisitor
18-10-2012, 17:00
That FAQ does however say "other than war machines". Since the question is whether the hellcannon counts as a war machine when firing, it doesn't really help an awful lot.

belgarath97
18-10-2012, 17:16
Lord Inquisitor the argument has never been "Is the hellcannon a war machine?" The rules clearly say it is not. It is a monster. As such the FAQ says it counts as moving when it pivots.

The argument has been, does it use the "shooting with war machines" rules.

Shooting like something and counting as something, are two entirely different statements. Please show me any rules to support the claim that "Shoots like a stone thrower..." means counts as a stone thrower.

AMWOOD co
18-10-2012, 18:31
Shooting like something and counting as something, are two entirely different statements. Please show me any rules to support the claim that "Shoots like a stone thrower..." means counts as a stone thrower.

*tap tap tap* Blasted… tablet… not copying… bah!

Go to the Ogre FAQ, see that question about whether the iron curse icon works against the Ogre not-war machines? See where it says that an item that works against war machines works against these? There's your rule.

belgarath97
19-10-2012, 03:00
Q: Do the Scraplauncher Catapult, Cannon of the Skytitans and Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice have the Slow to Fire
special rule? In addition, can ward saves from the Ironcurse Icon be
taken against Wounds caused by these weapons? (p49, 51, 55)
A: Yes to both questions.

If you mean this, where does it say it counts as a war machine. So the iron curse icon works on these. It doesn't change the fact that they are a Chariot, a Chariot, and a Monster. The FAQ clearly states that anything other than a war machine counts as moving when is pivots.

Please show me something that says any of these units change from their unit type to a war machine.

Quinzy
19-10-2012, 23:11
The part where it says it shoots like a stonethrower, a stonethrower being a war machine. Therefore it shoots as a war machine. Therefore it's allowed to pivot.

belgarath97
20-10-2012, 03:19
The part where it says it shoots like a stonethrower, a stonethrower being a war machine. Therefore it shoots as a war machine. Therefore it's allowed to pivot.

Edited, because I remembered a wise saying, who is truly the fool? The fool, or the fool who argues with him?

No where has anyone shown me that the Hell Cannon, et al. has a unit type war machine. Until such a point as that happens this is wishful thinking that logic will prevail.

Fubar
20-10-2012, 08:16
Edited, because I remembered a wise saying, who is truly the fool? The fool, or the fool who argues with him?

No where has anyone shown me that the Hell Cannon, et al. has a unit type war machine. Until such a point as that happens this is wishful thinking that logic will prevail.

From new faq.

Page 109 – Shooting with War Machines.
Change “Unless specified otherwise, all war machine
weapons…” to “Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this
section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)…”

it then goes on to say about pivot before shooting etc, The stone thrower is in that section, which the hellcannon shoots as when its firing.

Hurray!

Blkc57
20-10-2012, 08:35
I would luv to say that the FAQ answer actually answered something, but I'm totally confused as to what it means. "All other weapons mounted on war machines"? I don't understand, what other weapons were mounted on war-machines? BESIDES stuff that was already a war-machine.

Fubar
20-10-2012, 09:03
the first part clarifies that stone throwers, cannons etc that are not mounted on warmachines (ie Hellcannon Ironblaster) still follow those rules, the second part is just referring to Hellblasters, mortars etc

Mr_Rose
20-10-2012, 09:05
It's clarifying that the baseline war machine shooting rules apply to all war machine weapons and not just the ones listed in the BRB. Unless specifically stated otherwise in the machine's rules of course.

Blkc57
20-10-2012, 09:08
Thanks guys, i was trying to rack my brain for something that was a war-machine but not listed in the book, I forgot about the funky Empire war-machines like the hell-blaster and mortar, so the FAQ was really bothering me.

belgarath97
20-10-2012, 18:51
the first part clarifies that stone throwers, cannons etc that are not mounted on warmachines (ie Hellcannon Ironblaster) still follow those rules, the second part is just referring to Hellblasters, mortars etc

Ummm no it says the exact opposite


“Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this
section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)…”

The hellcannon, et al. are neither in that section or mounted on a war machine.

Lord Inquisitor
20-10-2012, 19:21
What? The problem from the beginning has been which rules apply to "war machine weapons" and which rules apply to "unit type war machine". The errata clarifies that the shooting with war machines section does indeed apply to both.

As another example, the ironblaster. It is unit type chariot, but the cannon of the sky titans is a "war machine weapon". The cannon is described in the war machine section, and now thanks to the errata follows the rules for shooting with war machines. Of course it does, why would it need a special "move and fire" rule if it didn't? The cannon of the sky titans is a cannon for the purposes of shooting including ironcurse icons, etc.

Conversely the clause also covers war machines like hell blasters whose weapons are not covered in the war machine weapons section.

Finally the rules for any non war machine unit type with a war machine weapon are clear. Ironblasters, hellcannon, thundertusks, cygor, etc. All have slow to fire and move and fire unless specified otherwise and all pivot before firing. We don't need a FAQ to tell us whether a soul grinder can stand and shoot with a stone thrower, it cannot!

belgarath97
21-10-2012, 01:57
What? The problem from the beginning has been which rules apply to "war machine weapons" and which rules apply to "unit type war machine". The errata clarifies that the shooting with war machines section does indeed apply to both.

No it doesn't.


As another example, the ironblaster. It is unit type chariot, but the cannon of the sky titans is a "war machine weapon". The cannon is described in the war machine section, and now thanks to the errata follows the rules for shooting with war machines. Of course it does, why would it need a special "move and fire" rule if it didn't? The cannon of the sky titans is a cannon for the purposes of shooting including ironcurse icons, etc.

Conversely the clause also covers war machines like hell blasters whose weapons are not covered in the war machine weapons section.

Finally the rules for any non war machine unit type with a war machine weapon are clear. Ironblasters, hellcannon, thundertusks, cygor, etc. All have slow to fire and move and fire unless specified otherwise and all pivot before firing. We don't need a FAQ to tell us whether a soul grinder can stand and shoot with a stone thrower, it cannot!

The faq takes away the wording "war machine weapons", and replaces it with "all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)…"

The weapons in that section are Cannon, Stone Thrower, Bolt Thrower, and Flame Cannon. Ironblasters, hellcannon, thundertusks, cygor, etc. are not these. Hellbasters, Mortars, Volley Guns, etc... are "other weapons mounted on war machines".

The Hellcannon, Ironblasters, Cygor, thundertusk are in order of appearance. A Monster. A Chariot. A Monster. and A Monster. None of them has a weapon mounted on a War Machine. As none of them are war machines.

I'm actually not trying to be argumentative, but where you all think this includes monster and chariot "shoots like..." units. I really think is excludes them. Without inferring from other faq's how do you justify the wording in this errata to include them?

I really think this errata just adds war machines not in that section to follow these rules (hellblasters, etc.)

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2012, 03:10
Then why the errata? What does it change? The wording explicitly differentiates between the weapons and the unit type whereas before there was none.

There is no unit type stone thrower. The stone thrower is a weapon. There are unit type war machines with the stone thrower weapon and there are monsters with the stone thrower weapon (e.g. Soul Grinder).

If you disagree please explain:

Why does the ironcurse icon work against monster/chariot mounted war machines?
Why was the ironblaster confirmed to have slow to fire?
Why can't a hellcannon move and fire?
Why does the ironblaster, cygor, steam tank, thundertusk, etc. require a rule to allow them to move and fire?
How do you fire an ironblaster since the rules require you to nominate a point in the "war machine's" line of sight?

It's over man, give up. We wanted an answer, we have an answer. Every FAQ and every army book rule is in line with that answer. If you were correct you'd have to assume every FAQ about the hellcannon, ironcurse icon and ironblaster and other monster/chariot mounted war machines is in direct contradiction to the rules AND have to assume this latest FAQ was just adding extra clause for no reason whatsoever when just saying "all weapons mounted on war machines" would have been sufficient AND assume GW writes rules in the army books that don't do anything (e.g. Ironblaster move and fire rule). That's a lot of assumption and contradiction when every FAQ, errata and army book rule is consistent with the differentiation of artillery weapons and unit type war machine. Occam's razor.

belgarath97
22-10-2012, 04:04
Then why the errata? What does it change? The wording explicitly differentiates between the weapons and the unit type whereas before there was none.

There is no unit type stone thrower. The stone thrower is a weapon. There are unit type war machines with the stone thrower weapon and there are monsters with the stone thrower weapon (e.g. Soul Grinder).

If you disagree please explain:

Why does the ironcurse icon work against monster/chariot mounted war machines?
Why was the ironblaster confirmed to have slow to fire?
Why can't a hellcannon move and fire?
Why does the ironblaster, cygor, steam tank, thundertusk, etc. require a rule to allow them to move and fire?
How do you fire an ironblaster since the rules require you to nominate a point in the "war machine's" line of sight?

It's over man, give up. We wanted an answer, we have an answer. Every FAQ and every army book rule is in line with that answer. If you were correct you'd have to assume every FAQ about the hellcannon, ironcurse icon and ironblaster and other monster/chariot mounted war machines is in direct contradiction to the rules AND have to assume this latest FAQ was just adding extra clause for no reason whatsoever when just saying "all weapons mounted on war machines" would have been sufficient AND assume GW writes rules in the army books that don't do anything (e.g. Ironblaster move and fire rule). That's a lot of assumption and contradiction when every FAQ, errata and army book rule is consistent with the differentiation of artillery weapons and unit type war machine. Occam's razor.

First off, wow... I said I was really not trying to argue, but understand. Your answer almost got lost because of the "it's over man, give up" comment.

Occam's razor. The removal of "war machine" and it's importance was lost on me at first. I can see why you include "shoots like..." weapons now. I still think they could have said it better, but I concede the point.

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2012, 18:52
Wow... that wasn't what I was expecting as a response. Now don't I look like a jerk?

Glad you agree, and you're right that comment was out of line.

LittleSigvald
10-12-2013, 11:23
Can you not just argue that as the monster and handler rule says " the handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit." Then the hellcannon counts as a lone model just like any other monster and thus can pivot as many times as it like for free without penalty in the movement phase?

thrawn
10-12-2013, 13:48
I have been playing Warhammer since 4th edition. Whilst I can see that the language is a bit sloppy, I cannot see anything that fundamentally changes the rules from previous editions. I even looked them up for fun
4th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
6th - "Pivot the stone thrower on the spot so it is pointing in the direction you want to shoot."
8th - "...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target...." page 109.
The hellcannon "fires like a stone thrower" pg 66 WoC book, and the FAQ confirms it cannot move and shoot.

We all play that the hellcannon pivots up to 360 to line up on its target and lets rip.
As far as I'm aware this interpretation hasn't been challenged in this country.

this sounds right to me.

anyone trying to argue "fires like a stone thrower" but that does not imply it can pivot seems like an idiot (sorry, had to be said). does that mean it cannot fire indirectly becuase it does not state it can fire indirectly, only that it "fire like a stone thrower?" the sentence "fires like a stone thrower" carries all the rules that it implies. i'm sorry, i just don't see a case for it not being able to pivot.

if GW faq's this and says something along the line of, "monster and handles, thus cannot move and fire, and unlike a stone thrower which can pivot to face it's target, hellcannon cannot pivot to face it's target" then great, no problem.

i personally don't have a problem with either. being an unbreakable monster you can't abuse this rule much. for example, if you do get a free pivot, there is no benefit to shooting a unit just to face it, it's unbreakable anyways and being charged in the flank is not a big deal.

godswearhats
10-12-2013, 22:15
Interestingly, the Hellcannon used to be treated as a war machine (see this PDF from GW (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1520013_Hellcannon_of_Chaos.pdf). Technically a mixed unit: a war machine with some extra rules).

Anyway, thanks everyone for providing me an entertaining read :-)

Trustey
01-09-2014, 23:41
So can it pivot then fire or not?

forseer of fates
02-09-2014, 00:46
Yes it can pivot then fire.

Arthain
04-09-2014, 16:09
Can it? See WM's and pivot discussion thread

Lord Inquisitor
05-09-2014, 16:12
Time for the yearly bump of this thread. The question was never settled but most tournament FAQs (ETC and US Masters for example) seem to rule no pivoting, use front arc.

teafloy_the_damned
06-09-2014, 10:58
Deploy it carefully, mumble under your breath you should be able to pivot it, but your a polite player so you wont get into that argument
Pause for 5 seconds to see if your opponent agrees or stays quiet
Oponent stays quiet
Fire using forward arc only....hit 1 thing per game... Hellcannon done :)

HurrDurr
07-09-2014, 18:41
Deploy it carefully, mumble under your breath you should be able to pivot it, but your a polite player so you wont get into that argument
Pause for 5 seconds to see if your opponent agrees or stays quiet
Oponent stays quiet
Fire using forward arc only....hit 1 thing per game... Hellcannon done :)
British people are weird.

forseer of fates
07-09-2014, 18:45
Tip tip, tea on the lawn, God save the Queen and such forth!

Dark_Mage99
07-09-2014, 23:27
There is little to no benefit in pivoting it anyway as it can never pivot 360 degrees, it can only pivot to face a target in its front arc.

As it can fire anywhere in its front arc anyway, the actual pivot would be minimal.

Josfer
08-09-2014, 12:51
Up to 45° and it could be the difference in a unit being in its flank and in its front or something. Or a unit charging the hellcannon openly presenting its flank to countercharges or not.

RanaldLoec
30-09-2014, 20:42
Sorry just seen the age of this thread