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Morglum Necksnapper
21-09-2012, 23:54
In onother, now closed thread called 'Squig herd with only herders. Useful, abusive or useless?', there were some strong disagreements about the consistensy of squig herds. What seems reasonable and what would be against the fluff? What would in your opinion be the minimum ratio squigs/herders and the maximum? I would like to hear some opinions of fellow Warseer members.

In my imagination, squigs are bad tempered beasts and it looks strange to see only one puny night goblin controlling one, let alone three.

I have quite a few squigs and squigherders, and I've arranged them in units of 18, 6 wide and 3 deep, with the first rank squigs and the other two ranks herders. Two herders controling one squig so to speak looks cool in my eyes.

Kalandros
22-09-2012, 00:11
The previous armybook had teams at 30 pts I think, consisting of 3 squigs and 2 herders - and then you chose how many teams formed the unit. 5 teams would be 15 squigs 10 herders for 150 pts. Quite an easy method of forming the unit.

But in the new book, the Unit Size is 10+ with no minimum requirement of either model other than "at least 1 herder per 3 squigs"

I've seen hordes of Squig Herds as well as units of (6x4), and then the "speed bumps" with the minimal 1 squig.

So as it stands, the rules require only 1 herder for every 3 squigs, which seem counter-intuitive but allows to build a horde of squigs rather well - 39 squigs plus 13 night goblins is 351 pts - and packs quite the punch at 2A S5 WS4 and I3 I think - plus hatred of dwarfs, ITP, but bogged down by failing animosity (or thrown out of position).

The extra Animosity roll and potential battle-line breaker (if you roll a 1 on the animosity table, that squig herd of 10 models is doing d6 S3 and receiving d6 s3 hits to another nearby animosity-prone unit and both units may not move, shoot or cast spells for the entire turn) is where I find it fine to have a single squig with 9 herders and from there on things escalated until I reported the thread to the mods.

:3

Perhaps the intent is to have 3 squigs minimum and then add herders, so I could have 3 squigs and 7 herders, for 45 pts. I wonder at what point it becomes "fine" for the nay-sayers, between 1/9, 2/8, 3/7 etc when the rules as they are clearly authorize either as a legal unit.

This ain't a 100 slave block backed by LD10 steadfast and other boring stuff.
Shoot my single squig and I can't blow up the unit anymore.

Majinmonkey
22-09-2012, 03:19
The main difference in my eyes between a minimum 1:1 ratio and running the unit with 1 or 2 squigs is how far a player is willing to go into RAW to get an advantage.

The interesting thing is its usually the other way around, RAI perpetuates more abuses as far as my experience has been.

I don't think anyone can say they haven't seen the rules in a favorable way, I mean, honestly gw writes the rules in such a manner that there will always be controversy.

Now my opinion on what is the right number depends on the setting.

Friendly pick up game at your FNGS? I would think under these circumstances it is polite to build a list that is not home to very many dubious interpretations of a rule. Granted, if you don't think its a contested topic, and your opponent brings it up, come to a compromise about how it should be treated so that everyone can have a good time.

Competitive tournament play, i'm off the mindset that you should try to get any advantage you can. In these situations, fun is created between two individuals striving to outbuild, outwit, and outplay one another. The last thing I would want to see in a competitive setting is someone intentionally making a weaker choice, it devalues my victory and I would honestly be insulted.

That's my opinion on the matter.

Kalandros
22-09-2012, 03:37
Competitive tournament play, i'm off the mindset that you should try to get any advantage you can. In these situations, fun is created between two individuals striving to outbuild, outwit, and outplay one another. The last thing I would want to see in a competitive setting is someone intentionally making a weaker choice, it devalues my victory and I would honestly be insulted.

That's my opinion on the matter.
The only bad part in that is how sometimes, like the Ogre army, it makes for one super competitive build while the rest are less competitive, weaker choices - that can still work, but are less optimal.
So you see the same old Lv 4 + BSB + (either a firebelly or butcher or Tyrant, sometimes 2 of these) in a unit of Ironguts in Horde with the usual support of 3 solo tusks, 2 cannons and 2 units of mournfangs or 1 unit of mournfangs + 1 unit of maneaters.

Its repetitive.

But personally, I mostly play in uncomped (minus the few obvious bans: Teclis, Book of Hoeth, Masque, Kairos) tournaments and face some pretty 'ard lists so I constantly adjust my list or try entire new setups.
Now I've come to trying these speed bumps in a list where I wanted as many deployments as possible and as few characters as possible - I reached 15 deployments, could've gone for more if I really thin out the characters further.

So I'll try these 2x 9 Herders + 1 Squig next and adjust if they are either "completely broken" (which I seriously doubt, but from the reactions of a few) or dead weights that cause extra animosity problems.

My original plan was 2 Hordes of Herds with the Ld10 + BSB bunker behind both - but then I remembered I have 0 metal squigs and not gonna spend some $800 to build both units in Finecrap squigs.
Maybe if they finally come out with a plastic kit... Maybe!

Perhaps I could proxy them as Forest Goblin Spider Herds but thats not as cool as Squigs :[

Kalandros
22-09-2012, 04:22
I'm still waiting on one answer as to what is the "minimum sensible ratio" - what would make the "1/9 naysayers" comfortable?
The 7th ed. (Old rules!) had 3 squigs + 2 herders for 30 pts a team, select how many teams to form the unit. And I agree it should've remained at that.

Translating this to 8th ed. - as the unit is 10+ models minimum, 6 squigs and 4 herders - but the rules clearly allow for less squigs and more herders to begin with as well as more herders than squigs.
So if I had 3 herders at most per squig, would that be cool or would the naysayers still throw a tantrum?
9 herders would mean 3 squigs, for 51 pts - Is this still wrong with certain people?

Oogie boogie boss
22-09-2012, 09:52
For me the minimum would be 2 Squigs to each herder, the maximum would be 4 Squigs to each herder. That's how it best gels with the fluff in my mind- a horde of big bouncy bags of teeth not do much controlled as directed towards the enemy (or herded, you could say) towards the enemy.

Chicago Slim
22-09-2012, 13:03
So, without turning this thread into the closed one (which is actually a bit of a challenge), I'll offer this:

The contentious issue had to do with *minimal* size squig herds. I'll make just a couple of comments on that, and then move on to how *I* usually use squig herds, in big blocks.

Night goblins cost 3 points per model. This is true, whether they're in a core unit, or in a special squig herd unit. In a core unit, that 3 points gets you your choice of a shield, spear and shield, or short bow. In a special unit, it gets you Immune to Psychology. The core unit also has the ability to buy other upgrades (nets, fanatics, musician, standard, champion) not available to the special unit (though the Special unit also has a pretty potent "upgrade" of its own, unavailable to the core). Finally, only the core unit can be joined by characters.

On the whole, that actually sounds pretty balanced, to me at least; so, after some reflection, I actually wouldn't object to an opponent bringing 10 herders in search of a squig. I also would totally understand, were I to bring this unit, if my opponent were to object. No need for name-calling, obviously: everybody gets to play the game they want to play.


Now, for my own part, I've not ever fielded a minimum-size squig herd: I like them in big, long busses. Typically, I'll put 3-4 ranks of squigs up front, with 5-7 ranks of herders behind them (so, even the smallest such unit would be 180 points-- and a fairly significant investment for T3 troops with no save and an excellent chance of breaking if they lose a round of combat...) I'm curious, myself, how others would perceive this: with often twice as many goblins as squigs, am I being abusive?


For the record, in terms of "fluff", I tend to think of Squig Herd units less as an orderly group of shepherds and sheep, and more as a hunting party, driving the wild beasts before them... That might be part of why I don't mind the 10-goblin "Squig Herd": it's easy enough to fit into my mental model, as a small party that hasn't found any game...

And, finally, let's remember this, as we re-attempt a discussion about what people think is and isn't reasonable (regardless of the fact that it's all allowed in the rules): Energy comes in the form of heat, and in the form of light. The energy you impart to this conversation may either inflame, or illuminate. Choose wisely, please.

Chicago Slim
22-09-2012, 13:06
As a side-note, I'm interested and amused to find that the database programmer for Army Builder clearly assumed a minimum of 7 squigs, and will not allow the program to include any fewer than that. This means nothing, of course, and is in fact unsupported by the rules-- but I think it's a funny example of how people interpret rules and intentions, etc...

Abetorius
22-09-2012, 13:32
As I have said before, I dont think a unit of only 10 herders would be all that usefull.
It will almost never win any combats on its own, so is prone to break as soon as it doesnt. So the only real gain is the damage it does when it do break.
You could easily compare it to the Fanatic or the Mangler.
The herders costs 30p, is very controllable in where it will meet its opponent, and is removed right after it explodes (also giving VP when it is removed)
The Fanatic costs 25p, is rather uncontrollable except at the moment of its release, and stays in play after its d6s5 hits.(doesnt give any VP unless its parent unit does)
The Mangler costs 65p, is very controllable in where it will meet its opponent, and stays in play after its damage of 2d6s6(AP) hits. (but also gives VP when it is removed)

When I make the comparison like this I find the Fanatic of a bigger use then the small Herder unit. So when fielding the Squig herd I think I would rather bring at least 2 squigs in the unit. This makes them rather likely to beat small chaff without getting destroyed themselves, but still keeping the cost at only 40-45p.

Kalandros
22-09-2012, 15:15
Quote from Da Warpath -

I'll just chuck my oar in to this debate.

I've look at this alot, because i've been running my spider-squig herd all year. To begin with, we played that if there were no squigs, then no going wild. However, while playing one of the top uk tournament players, and seeing all my squigs die and the unit failing its leadership, he said the go wild still takes place.

Apparently, its a subject that tournament organisers and the ETC board looked over and decided that, RAW, the squigs go wild whether any are left alive or not.

Given that those guys pretty much live an breathe competitive warhammer, and as the biggest rule sticklers I know of, i'm happy to take their word for it.

ETC allows for 0 Squig explosion.
ETC might not be the perfect system in everyone's eyes but it is one of the most popular series of tournaments right?
Interesting that they go for RAW to the letter on this odd situation that hasn't been FAQd

As for the minimum, I'm going with 3 in my current list - 2 units of 3 squigs + 7 herders.
It is the easiest way to interpret it as the minimum without thinking. Its written "Must take a minimum of 1 herder for every 3 squigs" - so 3 squigs to begin with, add 1 herder - then add more squigs and herders if needed while respecting the minimum ratio, with no maximum herder in the ratio.

The Low King
22-09-2012, 15:47
ETC might not be the perfect system in everyone's eyes but it is one of the most popular series of tournaments right?
.

It is a single tournament, its the comp pack that is popular. Plus the entire thing is about changing the rules so i dont think it is a good example.

zoggin-eck
23-09-2012, 07:57
Since the 4th edition book I've never liked seeing more squigs than herders, it just looked odd, so the new rules suit me fine. I'm going to go for the first rank being squigs (five, probably), then a second rank if I ever buy more of the models.

I honestly don't care what other people use, it's their choice. If pushed, I'd say the front rank should be squigs.

Kalandros
23-09-2012, 08:12
That defeats the purpose of the bomb herd though, as all squigs will die first and unless played per ETC-ruling (RAW - explodes with no squigs) - no explosion at 0 squig
Mine are gonna be

[H][H][H]
[H][S][H]
[H][S][H]
---[S]---

Last edition I had to present my unit's rear as I always placed squigs in front, but giving the rear almost guaranteed a break - only possible to attack goblins and an extra -2 to CR - thats more why I showed my unt's rear end instead of the front when planning on exploding or taunting the opponent with something like that VERY in the way.

Morglum Necksnapper
23-09-2012, 19:15
Thanks for the replies. It goes to show people think very differently about the subject.
I agree most with Zoggin-eck, I don't like to see more squigs than herders too and at least the front rank filled with squigs.

badguyshaveallthefun
26-09-2012, 20:29
Just read the original thread, and I must say...WOW.

I'm content to just lurk most of the time, but this is one issue that I thought I would come forward and offer my opinion (for what it's worth)

If the codex designers had intended for squig herders to, you know actually have squigs in them, then they would have made a minimum number of squigs required for the herd. I know in the past this has been the case but for some reason they either overlooked it or DELIBERATELY left it out this time around.

Now, I don't play O&G, but I have no problem with my opponent having NO squigs in the unit and still taking advantage of all the unit's rules. I actually like the idea of the squig herders having "lost" their squigs and are in the process of hunting them down, or the idea of 8 or 9 squig herders trying desperately to control one or two overly maniacal squigs; to me that's what the O&G are all about.

Malorian
26-09-2012, 20:56
Personally I love them in a horde and I take 40 along with 15 handlers, however the damage they kick out also makes them a strong flanking force, but then you have to worry about exploding and killing your other small units.

As for the suicide units, I've never bothered. I'm not willing to take the chance it's going to blow up in my own face and kill my own stuff, and if I really wanted to use something like this to kill elite units I would take fanatics. Yes they can be used to also redirect, but they are just too slow to do it effectively.

In the end squigs are very powerful and you would be unwise to not want any in a unit.

Lord Cedric
26-09-2012, 21:39
I answered a very similar thread in the O&G site, Da Warpath, so I'll just chip in here what I said over there.

The rule book states that a herd "consists of both Night Goblins and Squigs". So, to me that means I *have* to have both in order for this unique unit to be legal. With the ratio as written, 3 squigs to 1 NG minimum, I take it as you need to have at least 3 squigs in a 10+ unit filled with the rest as NG's. So, in a minimum unit of 10 that would place it at 3 Squigs and 7 Handlers.

If you look at Lizardmen and their Salamnder/Razardon Packs, they have a 3 to 1 ratio minimum too with a max of 4 to 1 (we call it the extra "snack"), with 3 handlers to 1 salamander. Perhaps these rules were in a way to reflect this? Yes... I understand that the ratio is flipped monster/handler in this thought, but the ratio reminds me of it.

People need to understand that the "herd" isn't referring to just squigs.. it's referring to both squigs and the NG's. The word "herd" also refers to a "driver" or can also be defined as a "herd of people/things". It means a group and the group doesn't need to be all of the same type of species.

Is this rules lawyering? Nope, not in my opinion. It's simply following what the words in the rules mean. But the biggest thing that *should* be noted is how is this in relations to the Spirit of the Game? Basically, if your squig herd composition is fine with your oponent, then great! If it's not, then my suggestion is to have an alt list available as a just in case. Afterall, isn't the whole purpose of the game for both players to have fun? The fault, however, lies with GW and the originator of the rules for not clearly defining it.. making the ultimate decision placed on the players. That can make it a tough call for Tourney Organizers since this isn't the only rule that isn't written clearly.

Now... what do I "envision" a squig herd to be? I like seeing a lot of squigs. Now what is "a lot"? Yep.. that's a GW term isn't it? hehe. I would almost be inclined to suggest a 2:1 rounded up to match my thoughts and likes. Meaning 1 NG for every 2 Squigs. This places a decent amount of squigs and NG's in a unit.. so that would make it 6 squigs + 4 NG's. Excessive? Maybe.. but I just like the thought of having more squigs than NG's in a unit.

- Lord Cedric

Harwammer
28-09-2012, 12:38
I like the classic 3 squigs : 2 goblins. In my mind the squigs are pretty hard to control so the goblins wouldn't want to start outnumbered 2:1 and on the battlefield controlling 3:1 is the limit of their abilities.

I don't mind seeing small squig herds with a minimal number of squigs (interpret that as you will); to me the ITP of the unit doesn't just reflect the fact that squigs are in the unit, but also that the squig herders themselves are the baddest, most elite night goblins there are. Afterall, it takes a certain mindset to even become a squig herder! Finally, I'd be very reluctant to allow a player to take advantage of the 'squigs go wild' rule in a unit that had lost all its squigs. Indeed, the only time I'd do so was when playing under an official house rule (similar to the ETC's).

In short I agree with the OP; 1 goblin controlling 3 squigs does not make sense (except in a worse case scenario). Repeating myself, the rulebook backs up this idea by making the 3:1 ratio the limit of the goblins' ability to control squigs.

Yowzo
28-09-2012, 13:43
Personally I love them in a horde and I take 40 along with 15 handlers, however the damage they kick out also makes them a strong flanking force, but then you have to worry about exploding and killing your other small units.

I don't horde (still painting....) but I do max squigs, too.

Generally 15 squigs to 5 handlers, in a nice 5-wide formation covering one flank. I drool at the thought of a 40-squig horde, but still only 20 or so painted.

Some squig hoppers will get the rider filed off, and also bought some cheapo resin squigs made by a friend, but at my current painting pace it might take until next year to field.

Yowzo
28-09-2012, 13:47
In short I agree with the OP; 1 goblin controlling 3 squigs does not make sense (except in a worse case scenario). Repeating myself, the rulebook backs up this idea by making the 3:1 ratio the limit of the goblins' ability to control squigs.

I don't see squigs controlled as much as actually herded. That's why the gobbos carry big pointy sticks and loud pipes and cymbals, they're just prodding them along, not that much unlike human farmers and their cattle prods.

This would be reinforced by random movement or at least making movement compulsory, but at that point you might have to make them immune to animosity as well as ItP (which would be a major boost).

Malorian
28-09-2012, 15:04
The unit would be so much easier if they just took the handlers out of it. It's always been an odd unit and it has a very easy solution.

Hell, you could just change it so if there isn't a friendly unit within 6 inches they suffer from stupidity.

Harwammer
28-09-2012, 19:37
Yowzo, I think you misunderstood what I meant by 'controlled'. Perhaps corralled would have been a better word. Indeed your comparisson to a relatively docile creature such as a cow suggests you think the goblins have a higher level of control over the squigs than I believe they do.

The literature is full of examples of herders being attacked by the squigs, it is clearly a very dangerous occupation. I see the herders as defending themselves with their tools almost as much as they are prodding the beasts forwards!

Malorian that is a pretty good idea! Or to be really crazy how about having the squigs go wild if there isn't a night goblin unit within a certain range? :D

Kalandros
29-09-2012, 01:37
After trying the "oh so cheap and unfluffy and broken and disgusting ruleslawyery" herds of 3 squigs and 7 handlers, I've dropped the idea entirely.
They kill my stuff just as much as they kill the enemy's stuff.
Killing 4 White Lions cost me 45 pts for the Herd and 65 pts for the last wound on my mangler which was in the 2d6" range but had just gone through white lions killing 8 - somewhat fair trade off, made the white lions manageable by other blocks.
3 swordmasters and finishing my orc boar chariot's last wound with the other herd. D6 S5 is dangerous on single T5 models~

So they're useable but because I put so much stuff on the table already, they're not needed at all.

BooMeRLiNSKi
05-10-2012, 11:46
For pure fluffyness, I'd generally like to see the squigs outnumber the herders 2-1.

I wont actually balk overmuch until the herders are outnumbering the squigs 2-1.


For the record, in terms of "fluff", I tend to think of Squig Herd units less as an orderly group of shepherds and sheep, and more as a hunting party, driving the wild beasts before them... That might be part of why I don't mind the 10-goblin "Squig Herd": it's easy enough to fit into my mental model, as a small party that hasn't found any game...

But that would be very odd... Squigs are cave beasts that have been herded out of their caves by nightgoblins prodding them with pointy sticks, so that actually doesn't fit the fluff at all.


People need to understand that the "herd" isn't referring to just squigs.. it's referring to both squigs and the NG's. The word "herd" also refers to a "driver" or can also be defined as a "herd of people/things". It means a group and the group doesn't need to be all of the same type of species.

You are thinking of herd used as a verb, herd is never used to describe mixed animals and humans as a noun.

Squigs and herders are served at a 3-2 ratio and you can only buy the squigs separately, this suggests to me that they were envisioned to be fielded as is obvious... some herders goading a herd of squigs into the fight.

BigbyWolf
05-10-2012, 18:30
It is possible, however, to herd a single animal.

BooMeRLiNSKi
06-10-2012, 09:55
It is possible, however, to herd a single animal.

Yes, but a single animal is never a herd.

Actually, strictly speaking, you would be incorrect to use herd when referring to one animal.

Kalandros
06-10-2012, 17:51
Yes, but a single animal is never a herd.

Actually, strictly speaking, you would be incorrect to use herd when referring to one animal.
Except that GW doesn't hire English Majors (note: I'm just guessing, because if they are English Majors, they are failures) to write their armybooks.
Their writers rarely take wording into account and prefer to add their touch to the rules, hence for the same ruling, you will get 2 or 3 different wordings which can lead to as many or more interpretations.

If they'd learn their lesson and just add proper terminology to be used across every army and rules like Privateer Press did....

Chicago Slim
07-10-2012, 00:55
to me the ITP of the unit doesn't just reflect the fact that squigs are in the unit, but also that the squig herders themselves are the baddest, most elite night goblins there are. Afterall, it takes a certain mindset to even become a squig herder!

Well, I fundamentally agree (see my fluff comment, above, which has already drawn other criticism)-- though I'd describe these Night Goblins less as "bad" (as is "bad m-- f--", presumably), nor as "elite". What they are, I'd say, is the craziest, most prone to throw their lives away needlessly. Afterall, it takes a certain mindset to become a squig herder, as you say! :)