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Hudson Gameover
24-09-2012, 20:40
I love my monsters, my giants, my thundertusks, my stegadons and my shaggoths but I know that my armies would be better without them.

We play these monsters because thay look cool and they ooze warhammer but is there an army book monster thats points wouldnt be better spent on another unit?

pointyteeth
24-09-2012, 20:53
Having been on the receiving end of the Hellpit many a time I would say it is one of the monsters out there that is worth every penny...probably worth a few pennies more than it costs but hey.

tmarichards
24-09-2012, 20:55
The Hellpit is absolutely worthwhile, as is the Bloodthirster.

SimaoSegunda
24-09-2012, 21:04
Hydras. I would say Arachnaroks too, but I've only used one a few times, and even tho it's always been worthwhile, I haven't used it enough to be definitive.

Hudson Gameover
24-09-2012, 21:05
The Hellpit is absolutely worthwhile, as is the Bloodthirster.

How many bloodletters can you get for a bloodthirster?

Ghremdal
24-09-2012, 21:11
How many bloodletters can you get for a bloodthirster?

How many of those bloodletters can fly?


Anyway, I've used the wyvern and the arachnarok a lot, and I can say they come up around even on points. The spider is a big bad threat that usually dies before it reaches anything worthwhile, but it takes a extreme amount of shooting to get rid of it, that it makes up its points in that alone.

The wyvern lends me a great mobility factor that my OnG don't have otherwise, and is pretty fearsome against infantry.

sugnathefeeble
24-09-2012, 21:18
Hell cannon is worth the points

Kayosiv
24-09-2012, 21:19
The worth of any monster can pretty much be determined by the following factors. Give it one point on the following chart for each "yes."

1. Does it have an armor save?
2. Does it have a save versus cannons, more than 6 wounds, or a method of reducing multi-wound weapons?
3. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's attacks?
4. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's special abilities, breath weapons, thunderstomps, and riders?
5. Is an equivalent amount of points elsewhere in the army incapable of doing the same amount of damage or filling the same role? Example: You can get a lot of strength 6 white lions for 300 points, but none of them can fly like a moon dragon.
6. Is it Immune to Psychology, stubborn, or unbreakable?

Obviously this is an imperfect system because a monster that costs 1000 points would be terrible even if it met all the above criteria. Still, Most monsters aren't terribly overpriced in their books. There are bad monsters for sure, but they aren't bad because they cost too much but rather because they don't meet the above points and still cost a lot of points.

EDIT: Because a few posts appeared before mine as I was writing this, I'll go ahead and use those monsters.

Wyvern:
1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. Yes when ridden by a big ol' mean Orc Warboss.
5. Yes, flight is unattainable in an Orcs and goblin's army besides a flying carpet, very handy.
6. No

So the Wyvern is a decent but not amazing monster. It is helped by it's cheap price but hindered by it's lack of attacks and save.

Arachnarok Spider:
1. Yes
2. Yes, 1 wound for each leg, giving it an impressive 8.
3. Yes, due to an impressive 8 attacks and the venom surge ability, although only useful on multi-wound models.
4. Yes, due to lots of goblin crew on top. It also has some decent ranged options.
5. No, strength 5 is not hard to gain in the army and it isn't particularly fast compared to other things.
6. sort of, it is immune to psychology AND stubborn, but on a measly leadership of 6 it is only so-so.

The Arachnarok Spider is an awesome monster but held in check by it's low leadership and expensive cost. Still, if were to fight 2 wyvern's simultaneously I think it would easily be able to defeat them both.

Hellcannon:
1. Yes
2. sort of, on a 5-6 the crew is hit by missile attacks.
3. No
4. Yes, with it's awesome shooting power.
5. Yes. It adds a shooting attack to an otherwise shooting inept army.
6. Yes. Unbreakable!

The hellcannon is a very solid monster.

Lets take a monster now that everyone considers pretty bad.
Manticore:
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Maybe. If a particularly nasty Chaos lord is on top it has potential, but likely it doesn't.
5. No. Flight is attainable from disks of Tzeentch or Dark Pegasus and it's killing blow can also be gained elsewhere.
6. No.

It's no wonder so few players take these things. Easy to hurt, not impressively offensive, what's the point?

Graxy
24-09-2012, 21:33
Hellcannons, sphinx, greater daemons, hellpits, treemen (to an extent), hydras.

Some people like arachnoroks I despise them.

EDIT: Also Soulgrinder, terrogheist and destroyer.

The Odor
24-09-2012, 21:37
.... K'Daai Destroyer?

Montegue
24-09-2012, 21:53
Stonehorn, Hydra, Abom, Destroyer, Great Unclean One...that's just off the top of my head.

Morkash
24-09-2012, 21:53
There are quite a few monsters which are useful. In fact, there are a few which are not that good but next to no one is "useless", usually they are the ones with a more specific role.

Good monsters are:
- Hydra: Resilient, killy, cheap. Well worth it.
- Greater Daemons: Some more, some less, but a Bloodthirster or Great Unclean One always have an impact on the battlefield. They're expensive but crucial.
- K'daai Destroyer: Fast, very resilient, incredibly killy. There's more than one reason why it is feared.
- Hellcannon: Strong shooting, immune to Warmachine hunters and if in doubt, stomp something with it. Even the misfires can help you!
- Arachnarok: I love my big gribbly. She's mobile, has lots of attacks and looks stunning. Not a nobrainer choice, but she's worth it most times.
- Hell Pit Abomination. Charge it, they said. You got a horde of soldiers around you, they said... Sadly, they're all dead. The HPA/H-Bomb still is one of the best monsters around.

These are the ones I regular face or field. There are many more which aren't bad either, like Stegadons, Sphinxes, Thundertusks & Stonehorns etc.

Blkc57
24-09-2012, 21:59
A monster worth his points? Let me introduce you to my friend, the K'daai Destroyer. It does as its name implies. It is a monster thats worth its wieght in gold. I believe your question is not what monster is worth his points, for at the end of the day even a gaint has a use in game, the million dollar question is what RIDDEN monster is worth his points? That is a much harder question my friend.

Quinzy
24-09-2012, 22:25
I'd say the Treeman is worth his points. Or rather, I'll field one gladly enough at the points he costs right now.

nurgle5
24-09-2012, 23:36
I quite like a Giant with the Mark of Slaanesh, the always strikes first is a lot of fun! Took it to a tourney, didn't even do that badly with it. At the very least it wasn't blown off the board cannons or magic :p.

The Keeper of Secrets is a monster that is definitely worth its points. It can be quite scary if you combo LD-bombing shenanigans with the daemonic gift that makes enemies in base contact take a LD test so they can attack.

Maoriboy007
24-09-2012, 23:49
Just a note, for all intents and purpouses a hellcannon gets 2 equivalent 5+ ward saves called crew due to the monsters and handlers rules.

Kayosiv
24-09-2012, 23:54
Totally forgot about the dwarfs that operate it.

Rosstifer
25-09-2012, 00:12
3 of them. They pretty much make the Hellcannon worth it's points, otherwise it would just be too squishy. Hellcannons die like anything to opposing Warmachines, especially if they are on the now offical 150x100mm base.

A solid monster that I'm happy to use and pay 205pts, I've used a single Hellcannon in 18 Tournament Games and Double Hellcannon in 6, and alot of casual games and I think they are what alot of monsters should aim for. Good enough to take competitively, but not too good or a no brainer auto include.

Other solid monsters that are costed about right are Stonehorns, Arachnoraks, War Sphinxes, Soulgrinders and Terrorghiests. All good fun to use, and decent enough that you don't hamstring yourself by taking them.

Our local Vampire player ran Double Terrorgheist and 4 Vampires with the -1LD aura thingy, killed an entire Bretonian Lance in one round of Screaming!

Maoriboy007
25-09-2012, 01:09
3 of them. They pretty much make the Hellcannon worth it's points, otherwise it would just be too squishy. Hellcannons die like anything to opposing Warmachines, especially if they are on the now offical 150x100mm base.I don't know if they are more vulnerabe than a lot of other monsters out there even without the Dwarf wards, and they are also war machines in themselves, being just (if not more) as dangerous at range as up close. They could probably afford to be a little squisher.


Our local Vampire player ran Double Terrorgheist and 4 Vampires with the -1LD aura thingy, killed an entire Bretonian Lance in one round of Screaming!If used in conjunction with a lord thats pretty close to 1000 points so nasty, yae , unwarranted, well considering the cost the payout sounds about right. Personally I'm not sold on the terrorheists, too much expense and effort just to make them work for my liking, but I can see why some people might like them. I like the mortis engine better.

Sunner
25-09-2012, 01:46
If you can, take the Hellcannon. I'm going to try some of the beastmen monsters this week,I'll let you know how they'll fare but I'm not expecting much due to the lack of saves.

Lord Inquisitor
25-09-2012, 02:19
Too good for their points? Hellpit, hydra and not least the Destroyer. Not a long list!

About right? Hellcannon, greater daemons, warsphynx, terrorgheist.

Most of the other 8th Ed monsters, soul grinders, arachranoks, thundertusks and stonehorn, etc are passable and can work but just too easy to kill. Excluding ridden monsters of course, which are still unusably bad even in the new books.

Kayosiv's chart was pretty spot on. In 8th a monster needs a save against cannons and decent damage output to be anything but a liability.

GrandmasterWang
25-09-2012, 03:00
Varghulf. Fast, cheap and regen. Can flex without the general.
Solid for the points

Taurus, bale taurus and zombie dragon are good for the points. If you could run them un~mounted you would see them a lot. As mounts they are functional. Lamassu also is fine, a lore of shadow mount is always going to have uses.

Elemental of beasts is good for its 275 pts (arcanum). Been running it a bit. Killed a keeper of secrets the other day. Strength 7, panic howl, t6, 5 wounds, d3 impact hits, swiftsfride, 6 attacks and finally a 5 + ward save...... This thing is no joke. Several of the arcanum monsters are a bit too good I believe.

Majinmonkey
25-09-2012, 08:25
I've used the stonehorn a few times, and what he does is smash the unprepared. Anyone who is prepared for monsters to hit the board likely won't flinch.

The thundertusk I also used once, and it's stone thrower snowball murdered a bunch of wood elves, but that's but that hard really.

The hell pit abomination is very scary, it had ruined me so many times. The most dangerous part about it is the random movement. You cannot be safe out of its front arc, and it is actually very good at killing knights, which are the next best things to cannons for monster hunting.

I think part of the cost of monsters that might make them seem inefficient is their intimidation factor.

Your opponent sees you place this huge model that he knows hits hard and can take them back in turn, and that becomes a priority. Dictating where your opponent puts his firepower has many game play advantages that are difficult to quantify.

T10
25-09-2012, 10:40
I notice that this thread will happily list undercosted models as "worth their points". The K'dai Destroyer, the Hellpit Abonination, the War Hydra.

In my opinion, a monster is worth it's points if it's cheap enough that I'll take it, but also expensive enough that I'm ok with my opponent using it.

-T10

Gary wyper
25-09-2012, 11:40
Dragons :p

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Lord Inquisitor
25-09-2012, 11:47
T10, depends on whether people take "worth their points" to mean "balanced" or "worth taking". Hellpits and abombs are heavily in the second category. ;)

However it had been noticeable that even in the 8th Ed books most of these gorgeous big centerpiece models GW are making for each army are mediocre at best in-game.

Empire - Ulric
25-09-2012, 17:44
I'm a Big fan of the Cursed Ettin........ Hi I'm a Monster......... and I SCOUT!

Not to mention Hatred, and funky double CR for flank and rear charges. Oh and I can do d6+1 Impact hits on the charge for a mere 15 more points.

innerwolf
25-09-2012, 18:19
I will say two that are not. Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons.
Simply having independently killable crew make them already weaker than most unridden monsters of their category. They are also less resilient and/or killy than their counterparts in other armies (Warsphynxes on the lower end of the spectrum, Stonehorn/Thundertusk in the middle and Arachnarok at the top end).

One of the most interesting variants, the Engine of the Gods, suffers a lot from being dependent on the squishiest wizard in the game.

I would honestly take any of the monsters mentioned above instead of the different Stegadons. People can complain about 8th edition monsters not being ubber-competitive, but they are at the very least at the balanced level. I hope the new Lizardmen armybook will bring Stegadons in line with them.

The Low King
25-09-2012, 18:27
Stegadons arnt that bad, there are a lot of monsters that are worse.

innerwolf
25-09-2012, 18:52
Stegadons arnt that bad, there are a lot of monsters that are worse.

Unridden monsters? There are worse monsters, yes, but there are many more better than them. I didn't say they are the worst Warhammer monsters, just that they aren't worth their points on 8th edition.

Skarsnik, the Lord
25-09-2012, 18:52
K'Daai the Destroyers, Hell Pit Abominations and Hydras are just ridiculously under-costed monsters, they're definitely worth of their points and would be even if they were more expensive. Other good monsters are Terrorgheists, Hell Cannons, almost all Greater Daemons (Lord of Change isn't too impressive compared to the others IMO) and Treemen. Some people say Sphinxes and Varghulfs are good too, and they may be right, but I don't have opinions about those as I haven't seen them in action lately.

So there unquestionably are good monsters, but there's a good bunch of the worse ones too. Unfortunately one of my favorite monsters, Giant, is on the latter group, it'd be very cool to use him in competitive lists.

Gary wyper
25-09-2012, 19:34
I'm sorry but the treeman is a complete liability

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Jind_Singh
25-09-2012, 19:40
I love my Giant and Massive Spider for the Orcs & goblins - best monsters in for me - well costed, they cause a nice distraction - and sometimes they even do damage!

Askari
25-09-2012, 20:16
A Terrorgheist is pretty perfect for it's cost.

So long as you don't stick a Strigoi Ghoul King on one.

The Low King
25-09-2012, 20:19
Unridden monsters? There are worse monsters, yes, but there are many more better than them. I didn't say they are the worst Warhammer monsters, just that they aren't worth their points on 8th edition.

Depends what you want them for. Its outdated rules for crew are problematic vs cannons, wich pinball through them, but vs any non-template shooting attack it effectively gives the stegadon an extra 5+ save.

Using the suggestion on the previous page for measureing monsters:
1. Does it have an armor save? Yes, 4+ for a stegadon, 3+ for an ancient
2. Does it have a save versus cannons, more than 6 wounds, or a method of reducing multi-wound weapons? No, it is very vulnerable here
3. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's attacks? no, low number of base attacks
4. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's special abilities, breath weapons, thunderstomps, and riders? Yes. 4 attacks, 5 crew, D6+1 impact hits, thunderstomp
5. Is an equivalent amount of points elsewhere in the army incapable of doing the same amount of damage or filling the same role? Nothing else in the army has impact hits, has a warmachine weapon on is back, or is Toughness 6,
6. Is it Immune to Psychology, stubborn, or unbreakable? ITP, stubborn and cold blooded

I find them very useful in a list, maybe not worth it in raw power but they offer a huge amount of utility and can be very useful tactically.

Kayosiv
25-09-2012, 20:21
I'm sorry but the treeman is a complete liability


In what sense?

AmaroK
25-09-2012, 20:34
Most of the other 8th edition monsters are too easy to kill because of the cannon/catapult rules, designed for previous editions and much shorter bases. New monsters have huge bases that make almost imposible to not hit the target unless you get a missfire. A rework of the cannons must be done in 9th, maybe 2d6 scatter or dunno... Magic can be a bit too powerfull to kill those big monsters (stat checks that kill the model outright), but besides that, the rest of the mechanics (usual balistics, close combats etc) seems correct for the big gribblies.

Jagosaja
25-09-2012, 20:45
As someone has mentioned, Varghulf. Or better to say, a pair of them. They win games. No armour save but regeneration 4+. They have 4 wounds each. It saves versus cannons, just not "flaming rune" dwarf cannons. 2 Varghulves have 10 WS5 attacks with hatred that have S5, so theoretically they are capable of dealing 10 wounds. 2 thunderstomps can produce 10+ wounds. Strigoi Ghoul King or Blood Knights can produce more wounds, but are reasonably more expensive. They are undead. They have no flanks or rear, something which is unique in the game (except maybe some virtued bretonnians).

innerwolf
25-09-2012, 21:40
Depends what you want them for. Its outdated rules for crew are problematic vs cannons, wich pinball through them, but vs any non-template shooting attack it effectively gives the stegadon an extra 5+ save.

Using the suggestion on the previous page for measureing monsters:
1. Does it have an armor save? Yes, 4+ for a stegadon, 3+ for an ancient
2. Does it have a save versus cannons, more than 6 wounds, or a method of reducing multi-wound weapons? No, it is very vulnerable here
3. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's attacks? no, low number of base attacks
4. Is it capable of doing 10+ wounds with it's special abilities, breath weapons, thunderstomps, and riders? Yes. 4 attacks, 5 crew, D6+1 impact hits, thunderstomp
5. Is an equivalent amount of points elsewhere in the army incapable of doing the same amount of damage or filling the same role? Nothing else in the army has impact hits, has a warmachine weapon on is back, or is Toughness 6,
6. Is it Immune to Psychology, stubborn, or unbreakable? ITP, stubborn and cold blooded

I find them very useful in a list, maybe not worth it in raw power but they offer a huge amount of utility and can be very useful tactically.

Note that Stegadons don't fulfill at least 2 of those points, and barely do for some of them (#4-average of 9 wounds against bog standard infantry, #5-they bring pretty much the same to the table as Cold One Riders, even when they are also pretty overcosted).
What do you mean by utility? They only bring CC potential and very weak shooting.

Jind_Singh
25-09-2012, 22:37
Cannons!

Too bad they didnt' have:

Pick a point on battlefield visable to the cannon
Roll artillary scatter die, scatter & D6

This way the cannons would still be good but not so stupidly accurate!

Why
26-09-2012, 05:39
In what sense?

Mine always seems to die:p
But maybe I should stop playing against armies with cannons:D

Omnichron
26-09-2012, 08:15
Whether a monster is worth it or not, depends way to much on what armies you meet and what anti-monster weapons he rolls with. Hell a double hydra is nothing if they both are pit'ed/flamed down and killed outright... even though a hydra is clearly underpriced.

Are monsters worth it in general? I'd say yes, as there are some lists out there which has less monster destruction abilities. In this edition, I'd say that the monstrous infantry/cavalry is more worth it though (And somehow what GW releases the most of in 8th edition... what a coincidence (NOT!!))

Urgat
26-09-2012, 09:50
Somehow they don't release a big monster or two per army, heh? :p

Lord Solar Plexus
26-09-2012, 10:09
Hellpits (and Doomwheels) are strictly speaking not monsters but unique. In this sense, I find my Steam Tank to be a pretty good stand-in for a monster:

Armour save: Yes, 1+
More than 6 wounds: Yes, 10. Possible ward save versus cannon from a Lumi.
More than 10 wounds with attacks: Barely (3 * d3 grind + 1 Engineer). Limited to fighting on its own turn.
More than 10 wounds overall: Yes, with impact and breath attacks. Limited to fighting on its own turn.
Equivalent unit in the army? Not really. A lot can tarpit, dish out high strength attacks or shoot but nothing does it in one tough bundle.
ItP/Unbreakable: Yes.

Omnichron
26-09-2012, 10:32
Somehow they don't release a big monster or two per army, heh? :p

Sure do, and with more weight on the re part of release. Although there's new monsters, both monsters and cavalry had their biggest glory in the last edition. Those we get today are huge and not very flexible, nor as hard to take down as they were in the past... which I think is for the better. The old monsters dominated to much.

I think my main issue in 8th is that some of the monstrous infantry/cavalry is just getting to powerful. Especially as they cost just slightly more than heavy knights (Which dies more easily and has weaknesses to things like KB), and they are a lot better than knights.

Anyways, the monster I feel is absolutely not worth its points, is the manticore.

captain strongfist
26-09-2012, 14:09
I'm a big fan of the good old fashioned giant for my chaos, having two in my standard army. True they can die easily and sometimes it seems as if they can't be bothered to do anything,let alone make their points back. However when the big lads are in the right mood they are fantastic.
I've also got a chaos lord on manticore and i have to agree its not worth the points at all, no save and now less strong than a griffon makes it a poor choice indeed. Also going to have to say that about the deamon prince.

Gary wyper
26-09-2012, 15:35
Even a lv1 metal mage can kill a treeman stone dead along with many other things including cannons and any initiative test or die spells oh and lets not forget he's flammable, so he dies to a 10pt banner or even peasant bowman

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Why
26-09-2012, 23:35
He is still the baddest guy in the army. He is better than a great deal of other monsters.

You should know that all monsters die to the things you listed, including hydra's and HPAs.

The Low King
26-09-2012, 23:53
Even a lv1 metal mage can kill a treeman stone dead along with many other things including cannons and any initiative test or die spells oh and lets not forget he's flammable, so he dies to a 10pt banner or even peasant bowman

A level 1 metal mage can kill a hydra aswell, doesnt make it bad. Cannons and initiative test spells are the bane of almost every monster.

Sure, Banner of eternal flame means double wounds, but you have to get past the high toughness, high armoursave and the ward save to get the wound in the first place.

samael
27-09-2012, 07:11
The Chaos Dwarf K'daai Destroyer, or the eater of armies as I've started calling mine is fantastic. I would even go as far too say that they might put an extra 100 points on it's cost for it's complete awesomeness and to lessen the gnashing of teeth and moaning of souls when it eats complete horde units of Bloodletters/Ironguts/Chaos warriors.