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View Full Version : thoughts on the horus heresy : betrayal army lists ?



drear
28-09-2012, 13:53
i understand it only went on general release today, however a good number of folk managed to pick it up at games day , so there should be a few opinions of the lists one can make with the new book !

reading through it, there are a alot of entries i glossded over initially..however re-reading the book. i can honestly say there are some amazing units to choose from.

my favorite so far are the 10 man marine units all armed with melta or plasma guns, arriving via dropod, along with the land speeders arrmed with plasma cannons or gravitation guns .


i dont see the point however of only sons of horus being given access to dreadclaw dropods. i know the rest of the legions can have them throuhg specific hq choices, but it imposes alot of restrictions on the list by doing so. whereas a sons of horus list can have them as standard..

Navar
28-09-2012, 15:28
I plan on use the book (that I just ordered) to field my Sons of Medusa.

I don't think that there will be a "rites of war" doctrine in this book that will fit the list, but the second book should have something that will fit with Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa.

My plan is to take 1 Breaching Squad, a couple of Tactical Squads, An Assault Squad, and a Recon squad with Sniper Rifles as troops.

I will build onto that with a pair of Medusa, and a Land Raider Achilles to provide Fire Support.

And then I will likely have my elite slots be 3 Apothecaries and a squad of Catfracti Terminators.

I don't have the book yet, so I am not sure on points levels though.

angelofrage
29-09-2012, 08:04
Planning on using the list for Imperial Fists. Looks to be lots of fun actually, with some interesting choices for the usually un-loved tactical squads.

nagash66
29-09-2012, 10:03
If ever there was a book not meant to be used by the hardcore 'win at all costs' crowd this is it. It is a great book filled with interesting and fun choices but from my initial reading very open to abuse if one fields it with a tournament mentality.

It is also abundantly clear that these rules were never meant to be played against anything from the 40k setting.

stereynolds
29-09-2012, 11:48
Having just removed the Paladins and Nobs are characters thing via FAQ this puts in back in on some units :P

Navar
29-09-2012, 13:13
If ever there was a book not meant to be used by the hardcore 'win at all costs' crowd this is it. It is a great book filled with interesting and fun choices but from my initial reading very open to abuse if one fields it with a tournament mentality.

It is also abundantly clear that these rules were never meant to be played against anything from the 40k setting.

First off how is this relevant to the OP?

But also by and large the book isn't even really out yet. From what I have seen and heard about it though it seems to really be well balanced. Like there is a way that someone could take all Terminators with a 4+ save and Vets, but if someone kills all of your vets or terminators they receive an extra objective point.

superdupermatt
29-09-2012, 13:22
Opening post asks about your thoughts on the book, nagash gave his thoughts on the book...

I love the book, as stated its not tournament standard but lots of fun, although the ten man Melta squad is just absolute over kill haha!

Maidel
29-09-2012, 13:28
My thoughts are that its the most overpriced book ever put on sale, at 70 its just simply ridiculous.


I however ordered it the second it came on line at forge world because its the one thing ive been waiting for since 1987 (actually, was it 89 when the chaos 'codex' was released, I forget.)

Very annoyed that it still says 'awaiting dispatch' on my account.

Ill give a better answer in a couple of days when it turns up, but I am very much looking forward to having an excuse to buy a load of forge world stuff.

drear
29-09-2012, 15:12
it has some interesting entries, and it seems to have been worded in each entry to give everybody their flavour of army , whether its emporer children or world eaters etc.

i wanted lotsa of marines with chainswords, and i get the option to have them as troops..but whats more they can have 2 chainswords !?
i wanted my hq to be a combat beast..i have an option to stick him in 2+ armour with a 5+ invun, and give him a massive mastercrafted chainblade with ws6

the points are right aswell , the 10 man melta/plasma units cost 300 points plsu for 10 , and they are just marines , so its a fragile unit against the right opponent.
the limitation of droppods though does irritate me, but i supose the hq options gives you the options to change how the army plays for that reason.

having your hq open up an all assaulkt list/deepstrike, or all tank army etc is what codex space marine should have been

Maidel
29-09-2012, 16:34
Whats the benefit to two chainswords?

Mandragola
29-09-2012, 16:56
An HQ that actually leads your army in some meaningful way, rather than just by bashing stuff, is a great move in my opinion. My book is on order but I like the idea of having a siege master to lead my 7th legion army (2nd model nearly finished!) regardless of whether he's actually much good. Not that it would be a bad thing if he was good...

I hope I can make the army work for normal 40k. That to me means either using it straight off in 40k or buying stuff carefully that can be used as either. This will probably mean either having some spare guys to come out for the different versions, or splitting up my squads with special/heavy weapons to join the others.

I might not bother. I've actually got a perfectly servicable 40k marine army that I've been building up for years, so maybe this will be a stand-alone project.

Emeraldw
29-09-2012, 18:46
I'm not posting anything about the power of the legion lists as it is WAY too early to be claiming anything alone that line. I've read opinions that think it is trash against normal 40k and some here sound like it is OP against normal 40k. Then supposedly at the FW panel they said it can work fine. So I am going to avoid that.

That said, I like the sound of the legion lists. Massive amounts of marines with bolters and squads to support these large marine blobs with some rules to make them each unique in their own way. I was originally concerned with some of the cost options, but hearing things like no special/heavy in tacticals and no ATSKNF makes it sound a lot more reasonable in that area.

Mr.Sparkle
29-09-2012, 21:10
hearing things like no special/heavy in tacticals and no ATSKNF makes it sound a lot more reasonable in that area.

Really? Wow, it may be for balance reasons etc, but marines in 30k had basically conquered the galaxy without ever facing defeat on a war basis(they might have lost the occasional battle, but never the war), surely ATSKNF seems a much more relevant rule for legions than chapters.

superdupermatt
29-09-2012, 21:24
It represents the fact that the marines are shaken about the thought of fighting brothers. During a time where they're encountering things that are anathema to what they know (daemons and stuff).

Also ATSKNF is removed to make sure Primarchs have a bigger impact (the unit getting assaulted takes a fear test at -1 Ld).

Leth Shyish'phak
29-09-2012, 22:16
Also, they haven't become fanatically religious yet, which I'm sure makes a difference to morale.

Emeraldw
30-09-2012, 03:19
Really? Wow, it may be for balance reasons etc, but marines in 30k had basically conquered the galaxy without ever facing defeat on a war basis(they might have lost the occasional battle, but never the war), surely ATSKNF seems a much more relevant rule for legions than chapters.

They never lost largely due to raw power and numbers. They could field thousands of marines easily, unlike 40k.

Mr.Sparkle
30-09-2012, 13:15
They never lost largely due to raw power and numbers. They could field thousands of marines easily, unlike 40k.

That was kind of my point, thanks for that.

SuperduperMatt makes a good point though, I can see that working as reasoning behind them not getting ATSKNF.

Gaargod
30-09-2012, 14:17
That was kind of my point, thanks for that.

SuperduperMatt makes a good point though, I can see that working as reasoning behind them not getting ATSKNF.


Well, the point is, if they never lost due to numbers and power, they're now suddenly confronted with having to fight on equal terms - space marine versus space marine. They may well have had an equivalent to ATSKNF (Primarch being around would have helped) when they were actually on crusade against the universe but fighting against their brothers for the first time? Nah.

Sqallum
30-09-2012, 14:27
The Primarch rules are spot on, Mortation especially. Its so good it has inspired me to start a pre heresy Death Guard army with Mort as the main leader. It is just great :)

RunepriestRidcully
30-09-2012, 15:24
I am looking forward to the books detailing the Salamanders and Prospero, Salamanders as I have started a small heresy era force of them, and Prospero just because the models for the Thousand sons should be gorgeous and would be great to use with a bit of conversion for my main 40k army, Thousand sons.

Disciple of Caliban
30-09-2012, 16:09
Salamanders make the next heresy book, so shouldnt have to wait too long.

I love the army list, it is what codex space marines should be. It enables so much variety, without any auto includes (except your primarch of choice, whats the point of playing 30k if not to field a primarch???)

Emeraldw
30-09-2012, 16:33
Salamanders make the next heresy book, so shouldnt have to wait too long.

I love the army list, it is what codex space marines should be. It enables so much variety, without any auto includes (except your primarch of choice, whats the point of playing 30k if not to field a primarch???)

I disagree on the implication of codex space marines. That is designed to represent a very different kind of marine army. An army that is smaller, has more rare gear, a different structure and thousands of years worth of indoctrination.

Legions are big masses of Space Marines who can field thousands in any given battle and really only have bolters on the average marine.

Maidel
30-09-2012, 17:09
Salamanders make the next heresy book, so shouldnt have to wait too long.

I love the army list, it is what codex space marines should be. It enables so much variety, without any auto includes (except your primarch of choice, whats the point of playing 30k if not to field a primarch???)

That's like saying what's the point in playing ultra marines without Calgar or wolves without Ragnar. It's just changing the setting, the theme and the style of play, but the primarch I'd hardly an auto include.

Kijamon
30-09-2012, 18:12
Definitely making a World Eater force. Thinking about making a themed first assault force. Boarding shields squads leading the fray.

Just a shame they don't have the option for drop pods, guess I won't be picking that particular trait.

koran
30-09-2012, 18:31
I havent scratched the surface but but this book is awesome. The content is great (and from the look of it quite fair in my PoV) with tactical marines being cheaper but loosing the special and heavy weapons and ATSKNF.

As for the quality of the book its out of this world. Yes 70 is a lot of money but I get the feeling that when I compare it to the new CSM codex Im going to find that at just over double the price but maybe 3 times the amount of pages and leather bound and with silver edging that that CSM codex will be found wanting.

Disciple of Caliban
30-09-2012, 23:15
I disagree on the implication of codex space marines. That is designed to represent a very different kind of marine army. An army that is smaller, has more rare gear, a different structure and thousands of years worth of indoctrination.


Ok, it seems i wasnt clear here. I dont mean the army list options are what codex marines should have. Rather the variety and flavour is what should have been allowed in codex marines, essentially the ability to field different chapters, without the need for a special character to access their chapter tactics


That's like saying what's the point in playing ultra marines without Calgar or wolves without Ragnar

Ok, this is so blatantly not close to the same thing so i wont even bother explaining the huge differences since i'm sure you can see them for yourself and are just being deliberately combative

Maidel
30-09-2012, 23:22
Ok, this is so blatantly not close to the same thing so i wont even bother explaining the huge differences since i'm sure you can see them for yourself and are just being deliberately combative

Not in the slightest.

Why is the primarch an auto include? He's an over powered character who will get held up in assaults with the new rule set and left killing sergeants who have challenged them.

I don't understand why a game set around LEGIONS of 100k+ marines are more likely to include their sole primarch than a game set in 40k with 1k marines per chapter would be to include their chapter master. Even numerically it doesn't make sense.

So if perhaps you could explain why you think they are a mst to be included rather than flippantly dismissing me I might actually understand your perspective.

Emeraldw
01-10-2012, 02:17
Not in the slightest.

Why is the primarch an auto include? He's an over powered character who will get held up in assaults with the new rule set and left killing sergeants who have challenged them.

I don't understand why a game set around LEGIONS of 100k+ marines are more likely to include their sole primarch than a game set in 40k with 1k marines per chapter would be to include their chapter master. Even numerically it doesn't make sense.

So if perhaps you could explain why you think they are a mst to be included rather than flippantly dismissing me I might actually understand your perspective.

They are a must because you CAN. It is a fluffy reason, they are the Freaking primarchs! I personally want to just use the model and I think that's what he means too. Including them because this is the only place you can. Not because of rules or likely numbers.

Maidel
01-10-2012, 06:24
They are a must because you CAN. It is a fluffy reason, they are the Freaking primarchs! I personally want to just use the model and I think that's what he means too. Including them because this is the only place you can. Not because of rules or likely numbers.

But you can say that about any powerful character in any army list.

I'd expect to see them used over and over agin to start with before people get bored with spending all those points on one model and want to use the rest of the army list.

Disciple of Caliban
01-10-2012, 10:00
They are a must because you CAN. It is a fluffy reason, they are the Freaking primarchs! I personally want to just use the model and I think that's what he means too. Including them because this is the only place you can. Not because of rules or likely numbers.

This. The army list isnt designed to be powerful, the legion lists exist solely for fluff gamers (i will hold this view until someone ruins it by trying to hold a tournament using the heresy lists, that will be a sad day), and from a fluff perspective the idea of finally being able to field a primarch is simply awesome, not to mention if Angron is anything to go by the models will be exceptional (i've just finished spraying my Angron, giddy as a school girl).

The point isnt that the primarchs will be all powerful (though Horus does look like he could be used for some serious rules abuse if you were so inclined), but rather that they are the epitome of their legions (in a way in which no chapter master could ever be) and therefore just too cool not to field on a regular basis.

Emeraldw
01-10-2012, 12:20
But you can say that about any powerful character in any army list.

I'd expect to see them used over and over agin to start with before people get bored with spending all those points on one model and want to use the rest of the army list.

Well, your thinking of the actual Primarch rules, which can only be used in special high point games. Most of the time, people are more likely going to use the model as a "count as" primarch, rather than the actual 500+ primarch. Will they be cost effective if they are? Likely not, but there is a reason for wanting to take the dudes that started it all.


This. The army list isnt designed to be powerful, the legion lists exist solely for fluff gamers (i will hold this view until someone ruins it by trying to hold a tournament using the heresy lists, that will be a sad day), and from a fluff perspective the idea of finally being able to field a primarch is simply awesome, not to mention if Angron is anything to go by the models will be exceptional (i've just finished spraying my Angron, giddy as a school girl).

The point isnt that the primarchs will be all powerful (though Horus does look like he could be used for some serious rules abuse if you were so inclined), but rather that they are the epitome of their legions (in a way in which no chapter master could ever be) and therefore just too cool not to field on a regular basis.

I would argue that the list holds it own in 40k. Yes, the book is designed for play against each other, but we know they tested it against other 40k codex's. The list is fluffy, but I am sure it would work fine in normal games, which is important to me because I am likely to be the only legion around (if I can get the gumption to front the cost).

Col. Dash
01-10-2012, 12:32
I was excited to hear about this new series. Hoping once released people give some details on the army lists. I remember not too long ago people were complaining the marine seige list was OP, and then it wasnt, so I take the OP stuff with a grain of salt since this is FW were are talking about and very little FW is even in par with regular 40k, let alone OP. Now I await the Night Lords which likely will be the last book, since they will save the best army for last.

Clarkson
01-10-2012, 14:29
Not in the slightest.

Why is the primarch an auto include? He's an over powered character who will get held up in assaults with the new rule set and left killing sergeants who have challenged them.


Have you SEEN what angron can do? Tie him in combat by giving him the chance to pull an IC, every other character and get bonus attack to a max of 10 (not including his base attacks) that is 17 if i remember from the glance through the book.

sure he will be tied in combat for a turn.. with marines that know fear... he is -1ld already iirc, chuck in the dead guys of at least 2 maybe 3.. you need double 2's to survive.. good luck

Bonzai
01-10-2012, 15:10
i dont see the point however of only sons of horus being given access to dreadclaw dropods. i know the rest of the legions can have them throuhg specific hq choices, but it imposes alot of restrictions on the list by doing so. whereas a sons of horus list can have them as standard..

That sort of makes sense though. The Sons of Horus specialize in Spear tip/decapitation strikes. Dop pod assaults would be a pretty standard tactic.

OgreBattle
01-10-2012, 18:29
This. The army list isnt designed to be powerful, the legion lists exist solely for fluff gamers

Bleh, that's a lame excuse. Every list should aim to be a righteous combination of fluffy and competitive, to create enjoyable experiences.

Maidel
01-10-2012, 18:36
Have you SEEN what angron can do? Tie him in combat by giving him the chance to pull an IC, every other character and get bonus attack to a max of 10 (not including his base attacks) that is 17 if i remember from the glance through the book.

sure he will be tied in combat for a turn.. with marines that know fear... he is -1ld already iirc, chuck in the dead guys of at least 2 maybe 3.. you need double 2's to survive.. good luck

And if he's on his own he can be challenged by a squad sergeant and kill exactly 1 model...

Which isn't entirely my point. My point is that the primarch is hardly an auto include for 30k army lists. End of.

Warllama
01-10-2012, 20:21
I can't wait to give playing with a Primarch a go, however I won't be using them in every game just because there's so much cool stuff to try out in that slot like a fellblade!

Bigglesworth
01-10-2012, 20:46
And if he's on his own he can be challenged by a squad sergeant and kill exactly 1 model...

Which isn't entirely my point. My point is that the primarch is hardly an auto include for 30k army lists. End of.


Primarchs would be fun to field, but if your going for a narrative themed game, it means its always going to be the primarch doing the cool stuff, forget the lowly marines who made amazing rolls ect... the primarch just killed two squads.

So yes, have the primarch, and use him, just not in every single game.

Maidel
01-10-2012, 20:52
Primarchs would be fun to field, but if your going for a narrative themed game, it means its always going to be the primarch doing the cool stuff, forget the lowly marines who made amazing rolls ect... the primarch just killed two squads.

So yes, have the primarch, and use him, just not in every single game.

That's my point.

I can't wait to field corax or Russ (god damn you forge world I want my heresy wolves!!!!)

I won't want them in every single game, that would just be boring.

RunepriestRidcully
02-10-2012, 09:40
How do the legion lists work at lower then 2000pts? A friend of mine has bot Betrayal and he says with the legions there is not much point to using it in games smaller then 2000pts, and I was kinda hoping to use the Salamanders I am slowly building before I got to the 2000pts mark.

Zanzibarthefirst
02-10-2012, 10:31
Its the same with any list, the more points = more good stuff. The list still works; some of the missions are aimed at the 1500-2000pts. even at 2000pts you can still fit in Horus

RunepriestRidcully
02-10-2012, 11:56
I don't suppose their is any sort of special rules/fluff on devastator companies? The fluff for my Salamanders is that they are the 13th Company which is a devestator/heavy support company, I'm thinking Whirlwind squadrons, Devestator squads, Rapier Batteries and possibly a Contemptor with claw, multie melta and the giant missile launcher and a land speeder squadron as I have two of the old metal ones that I want to use :P.

drear
02-10-2012, 13:24
I don't suppose their is any sort of special rules/fluff on devastator companies? The fluff for my Salamanders is that they are the 13th Company which is a devestator/heavy support company, I'm thinking Whirlwind squadrons, Devestator squads, Rapier Batteries and possibly a Contemptor with claw, multie melta and the giant missile launcher and a land speeder squadron as I have two of the old metal ones that I want to use :P.


dev squads are much more uniform, as they all have to have the same weapon loadout. but can still get access to a signum ( sorta) and gain flakk upgrades and interceptor for some points.
the artillery platforms are more fun, including thudd guns and heavy bolter turrets etc. and you can feild squadrons of most tanks.

Disciple of Caliban
02-10-2012, 17:20
No rules that would enable you to field a devastator company yet. Its possible when the rules for one of the more heavy weapon orientated legions come out there may be a way to make heavy weapon marines a troops choice, but for now you'd struggle to get a lot of heavy firepower on the board. Its not even like you can field small tac squads with heavy weapons, though you can field veterans with heavy weapons, and squads of marines all armed with assault weapons, so i suppose its possible to get a lot of firepower on the board still. i'm thinking something like:

2 veteran squads with a heavy weapon,
2 devastator squads,
2 tactical support squads (plasma guns, or mini assault cannons)
dreadnoughts,
landspeeders/jetbikes

Not exactly a dev company, but about as close as you can get with the current list

drear
02-10-2012, 18:43
youd still have to include 2 normal tactical or assault units to cover the basic troop choice, as support units dont count towards the min requirment for 2 troops.

but why wouldnt you want to take bolter marines in the list?! the normal , just with bolters ( option to take a chainsword along with it) can pump out a damn impressive amount of firepower, a unit of 20 can rapid fire, and has a special rule to shoot twice in a turn, nothings living afterb that!

Disciple of Caliban
02-10-2012, 18:46
sorry, i should have been clear. I was cheating and using the veterans as troops with the pride of the legion rule ;)

drear
02-10-2012, 20:51
ahah completely forgot about that rule! its nice that it can be done like that as well. all terminator army or all 'sternguard' etc

ive mentioned the tactical support squad to a few friends and they seem to think 10 marines with plasma guns is abit over powered, and wont mix well with 40k..
guard can spam melta etc easily, and definitly out shoot marines if they want/out meq..so i see it as a nice option to take out maybe a unit or two. but a massive point sink on my behalf. so if they get hit with somthing nasty like a vindicator. they still die like meq, despite their weapon load out .

Jericho
02-10-2012, 20:59
Unless Forgeworld starts coming out with sets that are useful for heavy/specials, I can't see too many people making much use of the support squads just yet.

I have 4 each of the heavy weapons and flamer/melta, but no heresy era plasma at all... and ordering more of the existing sets is not much use at the moment :)

Maidel
02-10-2012, 21:08
Hah, I hadn't noticed there wasn't even a p,as a gun in any of the sets.

I'm sure they will release them in due time.

RunepriestRidcully
02-10-2012, 22:56
I would use the 20 man tactical squads, but the theme would be a devastator company so the core would be two twenty man tactical squads and a Whirlwind squadron with other heavy units such as other tanks, Devastator squads, weapon batteries with the odd land speeder and dreadnought thrown in.
Jet bikes are out as I don't like the fw models, plus I could buy another power armour box for the cost of one.

Zanzibarthefirst
02-10-2012, 23:01
I'm sure Iron warrior plays are glad they get their basilisks back; just like CSM 3.5 :D It is also worth pointing out that the medusa and the basilisks aren't open topped.

I'm really tempted to use a siegebreaker and load those medusas up with phosphex shells. S5 AP2 and poisoned will hurt.

kafrique
03-10-2012, 00:35
I'm going to be ordering my first BA assault squad along with the book. Can anyone tell me what options they have? I assume there's no special weapons but can the sergeant take anything?

superdupermatt
03-10-2012, 06:52
Legion assault Squad starts with 9 Marines and sergeant, you can purchase up to 10 more. The entire squad may take melt bombs. The entire squad may take combat shields. For every five Marines, one can swap their ccw or bp for a power weapon/hand flamer/plasma pistol.

The sergeant can have either a hand flamer or plasma pistol instead of his bp. He can swap his ccw for a power weapon/lightening claw/thunderhammer/power fist. He can swap both ccw and bp for a pair of lightning claws. He can separately take melt bombs and a combat shield if the unit has not. He can take artificer armour.


I wonder if a HH FAQ should be opened up.

Emperors Teeth
04-10-2012, 14:16
I'm really looking forward to painting up a Medusa-or-3 in Blood Angels colours. Sorely tempted to model and recast space marine style armour for the flanks and some other bits to fit them thematically with the rest of the army. Maybe.

There are some wonderful hidden gems in the list, for example:

Centurion with Moritat upgrade - That's totally the Cypher for a DA army, right there.
Command squad - all Characters for challenging purposes
Veteran Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers with Suspensor Webs!
Reconnaissance Squad - Scouting + Outflanking Marines!
Seeker Squad - OMG. BS5 Combi Weapons with Preferred Enemy on 1 unit! Wow.
Vehicles in general - Heavy Pintle Weapons, even on Rhinos!
Predator Tanks - The Autocannon has 4 shots!
Vindicator - Can swap Demolisher for Laser Destroyer Array (nod to the Sabre?)
Malcador Assault Tank - It's a FAST super-heavy, not a slow one as in Vraks

So much fun to be had in this army, if you can find someone else making one.

Khorneguy
04-10-2012, 14:26
i don't have the book yet, but i like what i'm hearing on here. I'm going to do a post-istvann sons of horus force.

Quick question, what are boarding marines armed with. obviously the shield, but what else?

Fizzy
04-10-2012, 14:35
Bolters, bolt pistol.

You can give them lascutters, grav guns, power weapons and so on.

Sqallum
04-10-2012, 17:40
BTW, will the next book ,Massacre contain all the army lists/background in Betrayal as well, like the Centurion + stuff.... I guess a better question would be... Do you need Betrayal beforehand to play, or is it fine just having Massacre?

drear
04-10-2012, 17:54
ive been wandering that as well. i think it makes sense that this book was so expensive because it contained the main army list that the other books will be used around . the next 2 books would then be cheaper as theyd have fluff and a few pages for army specifics

Maidel
04-10-2012, 17:58
ive been wandering that as well. i think it makes sense that this book was so expensive because it contained the main army list that the other books will be used around . the next 2 books would then be cheaper as theyd have fluff and a few pages for army specifics

Honestly, my bet is you will need at least the first book, if not each in the sequence, to use the next book.

And I'll be shocked if the next ones any cheaper.

Navar
04-10-2012, 19:33
In the UK you can send FW to a store?

Murdoch
04-10-2012, 20:44
Ordered mine on Saturday, arrived yesterday: I was amazed it came so quick!!! hats off to FW for that...

The stellar news is that this is the single best gaming book I have ever purchased (including the original realms of chaos books!), beautifully crafted, wonderfully illustrated and dripping with rich lore gravy: This is the roast beef of gaming books... Superb!

Shame I won't use it in anger....

Polaria
05-10-2012, 07:29
A couple of questions for those who have the book:

Are there 40k style tactical squads with a special weapon and heavy weapon inside a tactical squad?

Can tactical squads take Drop Pods?

I'm mainly interested because I started my Heresy Era army before this book came and based it on regular 40k codex Space Marines. Now I'm thinking if I should try to covert it into Betrayal army list or is it just too much work...

superdupermatt
05-10-2012, 07:53
No there are no "current" day version of the tactical squad. In betrayal all marines bar the sergeant can only take bolters. The sergeant has a chainsword and bolt pistol, and can change his weapons similarly to his present day version.

Tactical squads can only take rhinos if they number 10 or less, although if you take a praetor hq he can take a Rites of War special rule that unlocks other dedicated transports.

Polaria
05-10-2012, 08:36
Wait a sec... So NO drop pods? At all?

Navar
05-10-2012, 13:47
Wait a sec... So NO drop pods? At all?

Only with the Preator.

My book isn't in yet, and I ordered in on Friday as well if it makes you feel any better Maidel.

But I do have a question. What are the default arms of the "devastator" (I forget the name) squad? I am starting to build my force, but don't want to screw up Wargear.

Thanks.

Zanzibarthefirst
05-10-2012, 13:51
@Navar, the Legion Heavy support squad default weapon is the heavy bolter and they can change for for a heavy flamer, autocannon, missile launcher, multi-melta, plasma cannon, volkite culverin or lascannon. All team members must have the same weapon.

I'm a bit disappointed by the inclusion of multi-meltas and plasma cannons; these were rare weapons used virtually exclusively on vehicles, it was unlikely that they would be able to field large numbers of these weapons (Dark Angels and a few others maybe but as a rule of thumb. This was also the argument that was given as to why Havocs did not have these options,)

Maidel
05-10-2012, 13:55
I'm a bit disappointed by the inclusion of multi-meltas and plasma cannons; these were rare weapons used virtually exclusively on vehicles, it was unlikely that they would be able to field large numbers of these weapons (Dark Angels and a few others maybe but as a rule of thumb. This was also the argument that was given as to why Havocs did not have these options,)

They have slowly gone away from that. The HH period is a time of lots of more exotic weapons now.

Navar
05-10-2012, 14:01
@Navar, the Legion Heavy support squad default weapon is the heavy bolter and they can change for for a heavy flamer, autocannon, missile launcher, multi-melta, plasma cannon, volkite culverin or lascannon. All team members must have the same weapon.

I'm a bit disappointed by the inclusion of multi-meltas and plasma cannons; these were rare weapons used virtually exclusively on vehicles, it was unlikely that they would be able to field large numbers of these weapons (Dark Angels and a few others maybe but as a rule of thumb. This was also the argument that was given as to why Havocs did not have these options,)

Do they have a bolt pistol or a Chainsword or anything?

I am trying to do bionic left arms for every member of the unit, and every bionic left hand I have found is either a "pistol" hand, or a "grasping" hand.

OgreBattle
05-10-2012, 14:05
Are the legions basically organized like power armored Aspect Warriors? A squad of guys with only boltguns and boltstorm, a squad of guys with only meltaguns, a squad of guys with only missile launchers, and so on.

Zanzibarthefirst
05-10-2012, 15:18
Do they have a bolt pistol or a Chainsword or anything?

I am trying to do bionic left arms for every member of the unit, and every bionic left hand I have found is either a "pistol" hand, or a "grasping" hand.

I'm away from my book so don't quote me on this but Im gonna say that the equipment they have is power armour, heavy bolter, bolt pistol and grenades. The sarge can swap his heavy bolter for a chainsword and vox along with gaining access to all the normal options.

Navar
05-10-2012, 15:22
I'm away from my book so don't quote me on this but Im gonna say that the equipment they have is power armour, heavy bolter, bolt pistol and grenades. The sarge can swap his heavy bolter for a chainsword and vox along with gaining access to all the normal options.

Awesome. I think I am just going to wait until I get the book to work on the Heavy Weapon Troopers anyway (I have enough tacticals to do anyway.)

I did a concept one, but just gave him a pair of magnoculars (or whatever they call them) I have a lot of the FW Bolt Pistols so that will be great if true.

superdupermatt
05-10-2012, 15:31
Awesome. I think I am just going to wait until I get the book to work on the Heavy Weapon Troopers anyway (I have enough tacticals to do anyway.)

I did a concept one, but just gave him a pair of magnoculars (or whatever they call them) I have a lot of the FW Bolt Pistols so that will be great if true.

The Heavy Support Squads come with a heavy bolter and bolt pistol as standard. The sergeant may swap his heavy weapon for a nuncio-vox and chainsword/combat weapon for free.

Fizzy
05-10-2012, 16:07
Yes there are Drop pods in the book what are people talking about?

I got 3 in my army.

Navar
05-10-2012, 16:48
Yes there are Drop pods in the book what are people talking about?

I got 3 in my army.

You can only access them as dedicated transports if you take the Orbital Assault Rite of War though, (no?)

superdupermatt
05-10-2012, 17:22
You can only access them as dedicated transports if you take the Orbital Assault Rite of War though, (no?)

Rite of War: Orbital Assault to be specific.

Although the drop pod entry says:

"Transport Capacity
- The Legion Drop Pod may transport 10 models or 1 Legion Dreadnought or 1 Rapier carrier and Crew"

It should be noted that in the Dreadnought/Rapier entries do not state you can take a dedicated transport as an option.

Navar
05-10-2012, 18:02
It should be noted that in the Dreadnought/Rapier entries do not state you can take a dedicated transport as an option.

Though the Rite of War: Orbital Assault says that Dreadnoughts can take a Drop pod and Contemptors can take a Dreadclaw Drop pod as dedicated transports.

I don't know what to say about the Rapier though.

drear
05-10-2012, 18:31
the only way to have access to dropods is to either play sons of horus, who get the option to use them as dedicated transports .

or to include the rite of war : orbital assaulkt, which imposes the restriction that everything has to either deepstrike or take a dropod, and no tank type units can be taken.

so its all in dropods or nothing. or play sons of horus

superdupermatt
05-10-2012, 18:40
the only way to have access to dropods is to either play sons of horus, who get the option to use them as dedicated transports .

or to include the rite of war : orbital assaulkt, which imposes the restriction that everything has to either deepstrike or take a dropod, and no tank type units can be taken.

so its all in dropods or nothing. or play sons of horus

Ah thank you! It was driving me crazy trying to figure it out haha!

Polaria
05-10-2012, 20:03
You can only access them as dedicated transports if you take the Orbital Assault Rite of War though, (no?)


Rite of War: Orbital Assault to be specific.

Although the drop pod entry says:

"Transport Capacity
- The Legion Drop Pod may transport 10 models or 1 Legion Dreadnought or 1 Rapier carrier and Crew"

It should be noted that in the Dreadnought/Rapier entries do not state you can take a dedicated transport as an option.


Though the Rite of War: Orbital Assault says that Dreadnoughts can take a Drop pod and Contemptors can take a Dreadclaw Drop pod as dedicated transports.

I don't know what to say about the Rapier though.


the only way to have access to dropods is to either play sons of horus, who get the option to use them as dedicated transports .

or to include the rite of war : orbital assaulkt, which imposes the restriction that everything has to either deepstrike or take a dropod, and no tank type units can be taken.

so its all in dropods or nothing. or play sons of horus

Well now... This is actually GOOD news for me since I'm doing a Heresy Era Raven Guard, which would mean everything will be Deep Striking or Drop Pod anyway. :)

Endobai
06-10-2012, 08:59
I'm very happy with the book as a new Alpha Legion player (curse you Dan Abnett - but he signed the book so I am fine now).

Originally I planned to create an infantry force flexible enough to use the Space Marine codex and any thing the FW book could offer.
So I've buit some tactical and scout squads, took a Librarian (since he fit the profile well - Telepathy? Why not!).

I was very suprised that only a single model from my assembled force of thirty plus doesn't really fit it - a scout-like model with a Hv. Bolter.


When it comes to the army list I am planning to field:

a Vigilator,
a Librarian,
two compulsory Tactical Squads (in full Alpha Legion colours - somene has to be) which might later be merged and will still be useful for vanilla SM codex,
two recon squads (one with converted stalker bolters) which AL rules should make ordinary, not supporting troops,
one or two Seeker squads,
up to two Veteran Tactical squads with their flexible options,
a Heavy support unit or two,
and up to three apothecaries with scanners to add even more flexibility,

Jetbikes (but not locomotive-like Scimitars) might be added later and maybe a unit of Terminators in armour different than Cataphractii.



Lots of options to choose from so I am very happy with the book which is possibly the best gameplay book I ever had for anything.
I'll have to scan the army list and armoury pages and print them because the huge volume is both heavy and too beatifull to be carried for every bloody battle.


Anything they give the AL later will be a bonus to a great starting point so no complains from me.

shaw3029
08-10-2012, 09:32
I think the army list is great. It allows you to field some a small veteran force or a massive army with tons of bodies and everything else in between. The list captures the legions nicely and we should see some fantastic armies being made from it.

The HQ options are great they have included everything in one easy to use selection. The squads are full of options and the addition of the rites of battle means you can take some really specific army builds.

I am a little confused as to why vindicators cannot be taken as a squadron like predators (4 shot autocannons!!), landraiders, contemptors or Imperial Guard artillery can.





A couple of questions for those who have the book:

Are there 40k style tactical squads with a special weapon and heavy weapon inside a tactical squad?

Can tactical squads take Drop Pods?

I'm mainly interested because I started my Heresy Era army before this book came and based it on regular 40k codex Space Marines. Now I'm thinking if I should try to covert it into Betrayal army list or is it just too much work...

There are. They are called legion veteran tactical squads and they allow you to take a special or heavy weapon for every 5 memebers. They are however a elites choice. But your Legion Preator cane take a rites of war called pride of the legion. That will let you take terminators or veterans as troops.