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View Full Version : Why didn't the Emperor destroy Angron's homeworld?



Kiro
01-10-2012, 20:59
Says it all in the title, really; a corollary of 'why didn't the Emperor remove the Butcher's Nails?' - given the indigenous population had the means and technology to enslave and, to a degree, control a Primarch, why wasn't the planet destroyed, invaded, or at least the High Riders(?) removed from power? Given that the Emperor took the time to wipe out the 'other' occupants of Barbarus, I'd have thought the technology displayed on Angron's home planet would have made it a serious threat.

Thoughts?

Inquisitor Engel
01-10-2012, 21:13
On the other hand, the population was cowed and entire cities destroyed by a large band of roaming barbarians with axes and car batteries strapped to their heads, so perhaps they weren't that much of a threat after all. ;)

Scalebug
01-10-2012, 21:20
The planet could have been rather unimportant, of little worth, with other than those bionic berserker implant (which most likely were rote-manufactured Dark age of technology artifacts rather than something invented just for Angron) no obvious technological finds...

The Emperor had to teleport Angron (against his will) away from the final battle he was about to enter, or lose a Primarch. There were no time to launch a full scale invasion to counquer the planet, or try diplomacy. It was a matter of hours.

The "others" on Barbarus were most likely not even human, and fairly few in numbers, while Angrons 'owners' believably could be brought into the Imperium at a later point, it was just it would be a bit awkward to try it before Angron had calmed down... :p

Khorneguy
01-10-2012, 21:20
Maybe they swore fealty to the Imperium?

Maybe they weren't capable of intersteller travel? Don;t forget they were probably a world coming out of Old Night, so maybe they hadn't even regained void travel yet? If so, it would've been a simple matter of leaving them be - the Crusade only really wiped out Xenos species. It'd make sense not to go back there as Angron has sworn to go down fighting. With the EWar Hounds at his back, he could've easily overun the world. But Angron wouldn't have stopped there. He would've fought until every last man woman and child in the society that enslaved him were dead. Think about it, would you really want the first action fought by a legion under their newly rediscovered primarch to be one of mass genocide against a human world? (no matter how evil or twisted they were, they were still human).

Also, IIRC the Emperor destroyed the Overlords of Barbarus because they were Xenos. There's also the fact Barbarus became a recruiting ground for the Dusk Raiders/ Death Guard, due to being populated by a hardy, resilient people. Angrons world was left and forgotten about, as the only real potential recruits for the War Hounds on the planet were killed as result of the Emperor kidnapping Angron himself. It wouldn't have been worth the war effort, or the moral cost to the newly-reunited War Hounds

As for why the Nails weren't removed. Maybe he couldn't without killing Angron in the process. They were wired into his brain after all. Maybe when they were implanted, they were wired to take over control of a vital function in his brain that if they were removed would kill him.

Or maybe he didn't want them removed. They'd been with him his whole life. He probably saw them as an advantage rather than a curse.

All Cing Eye
01-10-2012, 21:21
Says it all in the title, really; a corollary of 'why didn't the Emperor remove the Butcher's Nails?'

Now I haven't listened to the HH Butcher's Nails audio drama, so that might have some more information, but as far as I'm aware other than the Emperor plucking Angron off the plains of De'Shea we have no info on what happened afterwards to the planet. It is suspected Angron destroyed it on his retreating rampage after the failure of the Siege of Terra.

Londinium
01-10-2012, 21:47
I'm pretty sure if the Butcher's Nails were removed the process would kill Angron. I haven't read 'Butchers Nails' but from what I've read online they are slowly killing him anyway and he can't sleep because of that; the only reason he is still alive is because of his superior Primarch physiology. So you'd imagine that removing them would cause such a shock as to kill him or they'd have already gone.

As for Angron's homeworld, I suspect we might discover a bit more during Betrayer. Although my pet theory is that while he had Angron on board and was trying to pacify and bring Angron into the fold, some great crisis kicks off somewhere and the Emperor has to scoot off there with Angron and the War Hounds in tow to deal with it. One thing after another happens and they never get back to Angron's homeworld. Although the Emperor has been shown to have faults and make bad decisions in the Heresy books, he's never done anything as downright stupid and negligible as to just leave Angron's homeworld for no reason; although maybe this will be one of the few totally idiotic things he does do.

Kiro
01-10-2012, 22:16
I'm pretty sure if the Butcher's Nails were removed the process would kill Angron. I haven't read 'Butchers Nails' but from what I've read online they are slowly killing him anyway and he can't sleep because of that; the only reason he is still alive is because of his superior Primarch physiology. So you'd imagine that removing them would cause such a shock as to kill him or they'd have already gone.

See, that's the thing; I always figured if anyone could remove the Nails, it would be the Emperor.


he's never done anything as downright stupid and negligible as to just leave Angron's homeworld for no reason; although maybe this will be one of the few totally idiotic things he does do.

I hope it is covered in Betrayer as well, because as it stands, the Emperor just took Angron and left.

As for the civilisation of Angron's world not necessarily being part of an Empire, nor expansionist, it's a perfectly valid assumption, and probably the first one we'd jump to, but I think the point still stands that any technology that could potentially subvert a Primarch should be considered too dangerous to exist, unless it's in the 'care' of the Emperor or the Council of Terra.

On a minor side note, I don't have my copy of Tales to hand, but wasn't the meeting of Angron and the Emperor retconned, with the Emperor landing on the planet as he had with other Primarchs?

wyvirn
02-10-2012, 01:48
Because when the Emperor was reunited with Angron, Angron was in a pretty bad mood already. I think destroying everyone and everything Angron's ever known would have pushed the berserker psychopath into a completely uncontrollable mindset. But I'm not extremely familiar with the subject in question, just my 2 cents

Joewrightgm
02-10-2012, 14:26
To be honest, 'after De'shea' set it up that the emperor came to Angron on the planet, and when he realised Angron didn't want to leave, he teleported him away.

The common theme with the primarchs is once they're reunited with their legion, they either subdue or rule there home planets already.

Given that Angron did for few custodians before being sundued, leaving the planet was probably an exercise in removing angrons source of stress and generally leaving well enough alone.

Lupe
02-10-2012, 14:45
Because when the Emperor was reunited with Angron, Angron was in a pretty bad mood already. I think destroying everyone and everything Angron's ever known would have pushed the berserker psychopath into a completely uncontrollable mindset. But I'm not extremely familiar with the subject in question, just my 2 cents

And look how the alternative turned out...

Personally, I think the Emperor didn't think things through as thoroughly as you're doing. Heck, pretty much everything we've seen shows he was a pretty poor judge of character, and he wasn't too great at dealing with his sons when they didn't go his way... He just wanted to get his son back and another world under control and didn't pause for a blink to see what his son wanted.

TheDungen
02-10-2012, 23:56
i've always figured they bowed to the empreror before he even realised that that guy leading the slave rebellion was one of his missing primarchs. Thats why he didnt want agnron to destroy the ruling class since once they had bowed they were the imperial authority on that world.

Phoebus
05-10-2012, 16:48
I think it's a reach to assume the Emperor could remove the Butcher's Nails as easily as some think.

It took a very long time for the Emperor to create the Primarchs. For him to repair Angron, he likely would have had to do what he wasn't able to until after Ullanor and the recovery of all the Primarchs - leave the Great Crusade and go back to his Terran laboratories. So now you're stalling the Great Crusade and the process of recovering the other Primarchs in order to fix one of them. And that's assuming it's a short-term process; I'm assuming that fixing the brain of such a being was something that would require the Emperor's attentions for several years, if not longer. And that's assuming he didn't need to tap into the powers of Chaos again (assuming the daemon from "The First Heretic" is honest)... a door that was likely closed to him by then.

Furthermore, you have to remember that Angron's fall to the depths he was in prior to Isstvan III was gradual. He didn't start off by converting his whole Legion over to the Butcher's Nails and butchering entire planets. That came later. For the Emperor, his decision to keep Angron as is was probably akin to "being handed lemons and making lemonade out of them". :)

randian
06-10-2012, 04:05
I'm pretty sure if the Butcher's Nails were removed the process would kill Angron. I haven't read 'Butchers Nails' but from what I've read online they are slowly killing him anyway and he can't sleep because of that; the only reason he is still alive is because of his superior Primarch physiology. So you'd imagine that removing them would cause such a shock as to kill him or they'd have already gone.

Who says they need to be removed? They only need to be disabled. They do have off periods when they do not have their usual deleterious effects.

La'mour Le Breton
06-10-2012, 04:50
Is there anything in the fluff about Angron searching for his home planet? Maybe the big E left it so Angron could come back and get his revenge later. You have this big scary whiny baby, the size of 100 babies and your trying to get him ready to run an ENTIRE legion, he probably needed a little extra push, in the form of revenge, to get him going. You tell Angron you destroyed his home planet, he's liable to just say **** it and go ultraviolence on the universe.

ryng_sting
06-10-2012, 07:14
That's different to what he eventually did...?

TheDungen
06-10-2012, 10:35
nah the empreror seems to be sort of a sociopath, brilliant and all that but doesnt have a clue to how normal (and not so normal) people react to things. Kinda like sheldon cooper from big bang theory or perhaps even more like sherlock holmes from the tv series sherlock.

BigbyWolf
06-10-2012, 10:43
Says it all in the title, really; a corollary of 'why didn't the Emperor remove the Butcher's Nails?' - given the indigenous population had the means and technology to enslave and, to a degree, control a Primarch, why wasn't the planet destroyed, invaded, or at least the High Riders(?) removed from power? Given that the Emperor took the time to wipe out the 'other' occupants of Barbarus, I'd have thought the technology displayed on Angron's home planet would have made it a serious threat.

Thoughts?

The technology wasn't a threat to the Imperium, so why would he?

Kiro
07-10-2012, 12:25
The technology wasn't a threat to the Imperium, so why would he?

Because at the least, the natives had technology that could subvert a Primarch. Pretty impressive dog collar.

Askil the Undecided
07-10-2012, 14:27
Because at the least, the natives had technology that could subvert a Primarch. Pretty impressive dog collar.

I wouldn't say making a massively powerful superhuman much, much, angrier is particularly great of a system of control.

Vaulkhar
07-10-2012, 17:54
Especially not since he wound up leading a slave rebellion that became known as the Eaters of Cities...

HH1 sheds a little more light on the matter. It confirms that the Butcher's Nails couldn't be removed without killing Angron (though stays silent on merely disabling them). It also notes that the Emperor had formed the "Bloody 13th" Crusade just before encountering Angron...from the wildest, bloodthirstiest, meanest and most unsavoury units available, including the XIIth Legion. Sanguinius described it as a "carnival of monsters". The Emperor may have decided that putting the biggest monster of the lot in charge of what was essentially a berserker formation was a good idea. Of course, the Emperor could be a colossal idiot at times.

Scalebug
07-10-2012, 19:49
What people are doing wrong here is assuming that there was an actual need or want of disabling/removing the things... there wasn't. Angron worked just fine for what he was supposed to do, it wasn't until he had copies made of the implants and put into his men that he was told off by the Emperor (possibly after having recieved complaints from patent lobbyists of the Primarchs former homeworld), and that wasn't until they had done enough butchery for it to be "too much"... and probably not long before the Heresy broke out anyway.

Kiro
07-10-2012, 19:56
I wouldn't say making a massively powerful superhuman much, much, angrier is particularly great of a system of control.

I would say that's more an indication of Angron's character. Besides, he was a gladiator before he revolted, meaning the Nails did their job just fine until Angron learned to work with them. Hell, getting close enough to subdue Angron and perform surgery on him is a feat in itself considering he'd already taken out a Dark Eldar warband.

BigbyWolf
08-10-2012, 14:35
Because at the least, the natives had technology that could subvert a Primarch. Pretty impressive dog collar.

Well, mainly because it didn't really work out to well for them, did it? ;)

Kiro
08-10-2012, 15:48
Well, mainly because it didn't really work out to well for them, did it? ;)

See: above.

Jeez.

BigbyWolf
08-10-2012, 16:31
See: above.

Jeez.

Seen above, but didn't see any convincing information.

Slaver develops technology to make someone fight for them.
Enslaves Angron (who had been recently flung from the warp into a mountain and set-upon by lots of Eldar, so probably not in the best of condition...possibly not even awake...)
Technology fails, repeatedly, as Angron leads multiple revolts, the last of which is successful.

I don't see anything there that would worry the Imperium in the slightest.

Kiro
08-10-2012, 20:11
Technology fails, repeatedly, as Angron leads multiple revolts, the last of which is successful.

Erm, I wouldn't call Angron's Rebellion a success by any stretch given that when he met the Emperor, he was preparing himself to die in a last stand.

I never said the High Rider's technology was perfect; but given how the other Primarchs rose to positions of rulership while Angron was enslaved speaks volumes for both the technological level of Angron's homeworld (if you think subduing a Primarch is easy work, I really don't know what to say) and the indigene's inhumanity (given the majority of indigenes on other Primarch worlds were awed by their Primarchs), not to mention that the Nails could be refined by a potential third party...

khirsath
08-10-2012, 23:09
My take is that the planet agreed to join the Imperium somewhat willingly. Perhaps they had some advanced STC tech (the butcher's nails being only a small part) that could have been lost forever if a full scale war erupted. The Emperor didn't want to lose a valuable planet, lose the tech and tarnish the alliance with Mars. The Emperor encountered a non-ideal world where bringing it into the fold of humanity was going to be messy. So he took his son back and let the planet end its insignificant rebellion from the 'entertainment'. Not an ideal situation, but making the best of what he was dealt.

I also believed that at some point later(during the Heresy or Scouring) Angron flattened the planet.

Fizzy
08-10-2012, 23:33
Angron was not fully a primarch at the time so yes it is that easy. The training adn equipment they gave him did a lot as well as the training.

And yes Angrons rebellion was a sucess. For only having CCW's and thin armour to conquer city after city after city is quite an accomplishment.


Seing the choices of the Emperor kinda makes me think he was a bit stupid ( being m-o-r-o-n was to rough) and a bad father.

BigbyWolf
09-10-2012, 10:09
Erm, I wouldn't call Angron's Rebellion a success by any stretch given that when he met the Emperor, he was preparing himself to die in a last stand.

Successful in that during his last attempt to escape, he escaped. What happened after isn't the subject of the debate.


I never said the High Rider's technology was perfect; but given how the other Primarchs rose to positions of rulership while Angron was enslaved speaks volumes for both the technological level of Angron's homeworld and the indigene's inhumanity

I'd suggest it says more for the population that they were happy to see the use of such things. Some cultures would see a big man and say, "Wow! I'd sure like to worship him" others may think "Wow! I'd sure like to stick him in an arena and pay money to see him kill people". I don't see any evidence in there that would suggest their technology is noteworthy. Just that the locals seem to be a bit Roman.


not to mention that the Nails could be refined by a potential third party...

If the Imperium could improve on them, why should they fear them. Similarly, wanting to develop their technology would probably require leaving certain parts of the world alive. If they feared someone else would get their hands on them, then they would have destroyed the planet. However, none of those seem to have been the case. Meaning that they probably didn't see them as useful, or a threat. So why destroy a planet when you clearly don't care about their technology?


(if you think subduing a Primarch is easy work, I really don't know what to say)

I don't, I didn't ever say I did, in fact I clearly made reference to what had happened to him in the build-up to his capture, namely "who had been recently flung from the warp into a mountain and set-upon by lots of Eldar", but thanks for putting words into my mouth.:yes:

And, I'll leave it at that. You're quite clearly trying to read a lot into something that is incredibly simple to answer and I doubt repeating myself will help convince you.

Kiro
09-10-2012, 13:07
Successful in that during his last attempt to escape, he escaped. What happened after isn't the subject of the debate.

If escape was the only objective, rather than 'destroy the High Riders', I'll give you that.




I'd suggest it says more for the population that they were happy to see the use of such things. Some cultures would see a big man and say, "Wow! I'd sure like to worship him" others may think "Wow! I'd sure like to stick him in an arena and pay money to see him kill people". I don't see any evidence in there that would suggest their technology is noteworthy. Just that the locals seem to be a bit Roman.

I didn't explain myself very well: it's pretty much a given throughout the HH series that the Primarchs exude an aura of, shall we say, majesty - their place in the Imperial hierarchy notwithstanding, normal humans are inherently awed by the physical presence of Primarchs. On Angron's world, this wasn't the case, perhaps even the opposite. Unless I've forgotten a particular scenario, the textbook humans who are nonplussed about Primarchs are worlds that need to be brought to compliance or destroyed.


If the Imperium could improve on them, why should they fear them. Similarly, wanting to develop their technology would probably require leaving certain parts of the world alive. If they feared someone else would get their hands on them, then they would have destroyed the planet. However, none of those seem to have been the case.

But we don't know what happened to Angron's world, that's why I'm asking. Unless something has been mentioned in the FW book, as far we know from IA the Emperor just took Angron and left, for x,y,z reasons.



I don't, I didn't ever say I did, in fact I clearly made reference to what had happened to him in the build-up to his capture, namely "who had been recently flung from the warp into a mountain and set-upon by lots of Eldar", but thanks for putting words into my mouth.:yes:

Apologies if you feel that was a snipe at you, but you misunderstood me; that paragraph was not for you in particular, as I was going beyond his initial 'implantation'.