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Navar
03-10-2012, 19:51
So help me understand the value in the Icon of despair.

Without getting into points values lets say that it often costs a dime, but can sometimes cost a nickel.

With that said is it ever worth it?

Full Disclosure the entire concept of the Icon upsets me because I can't see the fluff justification, AND the mechanics seem to just completely fail on every level.

So what does it do? It gives a unit with Mark of Nurgle (almost always the most expensive mark in the book) Fear and +1 to combat resolution.

There are even units in the book that already have Fear who can buy it. They literally pay almost the cost of another Chaos Space Marine (and more than the cost of 2 cultists) for +1 to combat resolution.

I know that most codices have some WTF options, but as a mono Nurgle player I find this one extremely offensive.

Any good ideas about a way to put a positive spin on this upgrade would be appreciated.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-10-2012, 20:28
Maybe the despair is yours.

Scammel
03-10-2012, 20:29
Positive? Well, you positively need to take it easier if you're getting 'offended' by a slightly naff upgrade. The reason it's the worst of all the icons is because, if you hadn't noticed, there are an awful lot of Nurgle players around. PMs have been one of the best troops choices in the game for ages, the mark itself has been solid on several units and with the advent of 6th Nurgle CSM gained some fantastic synergy with their daemonic allies. With the new book on the horizon, we're also looking at Typhus bringing loads of undead friends to the party, a solid lore, being able to get the mark on a bunch more things where it's clearly a good option (T5 Oblits again!) and PMs gaining poisoned attacks as well. The icon is a bit sucky because the designers would quite like to see other gods being played once every so often.

red_drake
03-10-2012, 20:29
not much in the way of positive spin but...

you have the best mark, hands down.
your icon is the worst, but its also the cheapest.
(on what unit does it cost a nickel? o.o)

Navar
03-10-2012, 20:32
(on what unit does it cost a nickel? o.o)

Some units that already have Fear.

Yep, Some units that already have fear pay twice that much for +1 Combat Resolution.

And to clarify I didn't mean that it offended my moral code or anything. More offensive in the same way that something can have an offensive smell. Abhorrent may have been a better word.

Edit: Also Nurgling Chieftain just won the internet.

Kijamon
03-10-2012, 20:35
Maybe the despair is yours.

It's my despair at having my current terminator load out being completely non points effective. Oh well, I've waited this long for a new codex, silly things like points aren't going to stop me now.

Scammel
03-10-2012, 20:37
And to clarify I didn't mean that it offended my moral code or anything. More offensive in the same way that something can have an offensive smell. Abhorrent may have been a better word.


Heh, I'd say even 'abhorrent' would be a little strong, try 'odd', 'silly' or 'bizarre'. Just chalk it up to the usual costing slip-up and the fact that Nurgle already has a lot of maggot-ridden cake to eat.

red_drake
03-10-2012, 20:38
It's my despair at having my current terminator load out being completely non points effective. Oh well, I've waited this long for a new codex, silly things like points aren't going to stop me now.


apparently t5 terminators arent good enough for you :P
save yourself a dime and dont bother with the icon.

Lord Inquisitor
03-10-2012, 20:48
Some of the points values make sense in how they vary yet others make me a little puzzled. Not sure why the icon for noise marines is cheaper than for CSM? A points drop for lack of choice? The main one I noticed is the value of Long War upgrades - this seems to vary quite a bit depending on access to hatred/Ld10/fearless making one or both halves of the upgrade less useful.

Virulentus
03-10-2012, 20:53
I'm just happy to have a new book. Confusing point-costs be damned.

Kijamon
03-10-2012, 20:54
apparently t5 terminators arent good enough for you :P
save yourself a dime and dont bother with the icon.

Now now, let's not open another t5 fnp debate.

I'm just bawking at the price of a 7 man death guard squad with the options I've already given them (in the region of 350 points!)

All in all, the rules make me happier, points are for sissies.

Lord Damocles
03-10-2012, 21:39
Any good ideas about a way to put a positive spin on this upgrade would be appreciated.
Pretend it's an Icon of Fearless?

Maxis Lithium
03-10-2012, 21:40
I'm just bawking at the price of a 7 man death guard squad with the options I've already given them (in the region of 350 points!)


Really? because I ran the number last night and found the cost of a unit of Plague Marines has actually come DOWN by about 10 points for me. I have droped the icons as a whole, as I only ever used them for teleport homers anyway, and that's not a must have for me in this new book. paying less for my icon, and cheaper champions intigrated into the cost seems good over all to me.

Kijamon
03-10-2012, 21:44
Really? because I ran the number last night and found the cost of a unit of Plague Marines has actually come DOWN by about 10 points for me. I have droped the icons as a whole, as I only ever used them for teleport homers anyway, and that's not a must have for me in this new book. paying less for my icon, and cheaper champions intigrated into the cost seems good over all to me.

Terminators I meant sorry. I don't remember shelling out that much for 7 before. Still, it won't stop me. I have to spread those plagues around somehow.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-10-2012, 21:59
...I only ever used them for teleport homers anyway, and that's not a must have for me in this new book.I heard it's more of a "can't have", as in it's very difficult to get any sort of teleport homing in the list at all. Chaos keeps getting these huge swings in what they can and cannot do. Once upon a time, they had the lock on charging from deep-strike, then vanilla got that, then chaos lost it; once they had homers everywhere, now they're gone.

Vaktathi
03-10-2012, 22:06
Very few of the points costs make any sense. 22pt chainfist upgrades, 6ppm for 6++sv's on Spawn, +1ld and Hatred Space Marines is 1ppm but Fearless is 25pts no matter the size of the unit and can be lose, etc.

There's a whole lot about this book that feels very confused and not entirely thought out, from Ld8 Oblits that aren't Fearless anymore, to Berzerkers having only 1A base, 31pt Terminators and 7pt fist upgrades, etc.

Jericho
03-10-2012, 22:18
I kinda like how they aren't throwing Fearless around quite as much as before. The rule got way better in 6th, so it should be less ubiquitous.

Can't comment on the pricing issues yet, but the costs do seem more than a little bit random. I tend to prefer the books where almost everything is a multiple of 5, makes the math a ton easier when list building, even if it does lead to some units being a little off in their valuation :)

Ozendorph
03-10-2012, 23:37
+1 to combat resolution is not bad considering how stingy most nurgle-marked units are with their casualties. I could see that turning a few narrow losses to ties, and ties to victories. Consider the fear some sort of creepy icing.

prowla
03-10-2012, 23:41
I heard it's more of a "can't have", as in it's very difficult to get any sort of teleport homing in the list at all. Chaos keeps getting these huge swings in what they can and cannot do. Once upon a time, they had the lock on charging from deep-strike, then vanilla got that, then chaos lost it; once they had homers everywhere, now they're gone.

Not gone.. there's the Key in Chaos Artefacts that makes all DSing CSM units non-scattering.. well, after you 'activate' it, of course. I'd estimate you start to see a whole bunch of Key + Warp Talons Lists around very soon :p

It's an interesting take on the "narrative" side of things - having to "perform a quest" to unlock something.

red_drake
03-10-2012, 23:56
What Is this key you speak of. Why do I feel like people have the codex already?
*feels left out* :(

Charax
03-10-2012, 23:59
Put blood on it, it opens a doorway to hell.

Vedar
04-10-2012, 00:08
The problem with the Key is you need to kill something in close combat first. By then most of your reservse should have come on.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 01:48
The whole codex is full of almost.

The poor thing has caught a bad case of Nid syndrome.

As in this is not quite the finished product it should be. The Nids codex also had delayment rumours surrounding it and i have a feeling that this is what happens when for some reason large sections of the codex are changed just before printing, ias in perhaps the paradigm shift due to the CHS case managed to just clip the chaos codex and they dropped a lot from it due to model support.

As it stands GW has basically put minimal effort into this codex and relied on the popularity of "chaos" to sell it, they did the same thing with the nid dex, which was the most popular after space marines, and it blew up in their face.

Athlan na Dyr
04-10-2012, 02:16
The whole codex is full of almost.

The poor thing has caught a bad case of Nid syndrome.

As in this is not quite the finished product it should be. The Nids codex also had delayment rumours surrounding it and i have a feeling that this is what happens when for some reason large sections of the codex are changed just before printing, ias in perhaps the paradigm shift due to the CHS case managed to just clip the chaos codex and they dropped a lot from it due to model support.

As it stands GW has basically put minimal effort into this codex and relied on the popularity of "chaos" to sell it, they did the same thing with the nid dex, which was the most popular after space marines, and it blew up in their face.

Care to expand on this point? As someone interested in picking up the codex in the not too distant future, what exactly feels half-baked?

Sorry if this is off topic

daboarder
04-10-2012, 02:25
Well a couple of exmples:

There is the classic gripe that the new system of icons and marks and wargear would have been the perfect way to implement a "psuedo" cult abillity into the list, as in mark give stat increase, icon gives rules and access to cult wargear.

But the ones in the codex are,

Terminator champions are stuck paying THREE TIMES the regular price for a pair of lightning claws because some fool didn't add the option to the terminator wargear list

The wording for spawndom OR daemon hood mean that they are BOTH terrible things to roll for your lord, he loses all his gear and gets no options from either keeping his mark for both and getting power armour for the daemon. If you cannot palce the replacement model within 3'' of your where the lord was he is removed as a casualty. You are also no longer engaged in combat and therefore are shooting bait next turn.

Nothing saves the special characters form this, so Abby is going to gimp himself every couple of games.

The artefact list is so short its almost pointless, there are a grand total of 6 options and 2 of them are mark specific. the Axe is by far the best but only khorne can get it.

Navar
04-10-2012, 02:41
We are getting off topic, but I don't really object to the direction.

I think (at this point) the comparison to 'nids is a bit extreme, but there is some truth in it.

Am I to take it that +1 combat resolution is really the only reason to ever take the Icon of Despair.

Is that ever worth 10 points?

I agree that the "almost" bit is apt as well. It is crazy that so many units already cause fear in the codex, yet have to pay for the icon.

Athlan na Dyr
04-10-2012, 02:58
Well a couple of exmples:

There is the classic gripe that the new system of icons and marks and wargear would have been the perfect way to implement a "psuedo" cult abillity into the list, as in mark give stat increase, icon gives rules and access to cult wargear.

But the ones in the codex are,

Terminator champions are stuck paying THREE TIMES the regular price for a pair of lightning claws because some fool didn't add the option to the terminator wargear list

The wording for spawndom OR daemon hood mean that they are BOTH terrible things to roll for your lord, he loses all his gear and gets no options from either keeping his mark for both and getting power armour for the daemon. If you cannot palce the replacement model within 3'' of your where the lord was he is removed as a casualty. You are also no longer engaged in combat and therefore are shooting bait next turn.

Nothing saves the special characters form this, so Abby is going to gimp himself every couple of games.

The artefact list is so short its almost pointless, there are a grand total of 6 options and 2 of them are mark specific. the Axe is by far the best but only khorne can get it.

Thanks for the quick reply.

No offence, but that does seem a short list for a large codex.
Still, unless that's just a selection of the major flaws, sounds like this codex will be one hell of a lot better than the previous one. I'll have to see if I can borrow it from a friend before buying it myself I think.

Charax
04-10-2012, 03:12
The big one for me is that only Lords unlock cult units as troops (sorcerers for thousand sons).

If you don't have a Legion list this may seem trivial, but as someone who has, for over a decade run an army consisting of a Daemon Prince leading a force of Plague Marines it's an army-breaking change, for no logical reason.

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2012, 03:36
Yeah I've been trying to absorb that change for my Emperor's children. While we do have the option of the SC as well as the Lord it does mean some big changes for cult armies. We either take The Lord or we have to make do with cultists and marked CSM as troops. Neither is necessarily horrible, but perhaps needlessly restrictive when the same rule could have been applied to sorcerers and daemon princes too.

Lord Damocles
04-10-2012, 10:12
Just as well Lords (/Sorcerors) are dirt cheap now - with a mark they're still under 90pts. It's not a huge tax to pay in order to get cult units as Troops.

Charax
04-10-2012, 10:15
It is when you only have two HQ choices, you have to essentially sacrifice one

bad dice
04-10-2012, 11:52
Some of the points values make sense in how they vary yet others make me a little puzzled. Not sure why the icon for noise marines is cheaper than for CSM? A points drop for lack of choice? The main one I noticed is the value of Long War upgrades - this seems to vary quite a bit depending on access to hatred/Ld10/fearless making one or both halves of the upgrade less useful.

IT's both the same price on CSM and noise mariens

Haravikk
04-10-2012, 12:43
I heard it's more of a "can't have", as in it's very difficult to get any sort of teleport homing in the list at all. Chaos keeps getting these huge swings in what they can and cannot do. Once upon a time, they had the lock on charging from deep-strike, then vanilla got that, then chaos lost it; once they had homers everywhere, now they're gone.
Hopefully it's something that Daemons will get instead (can Deep Strike without/with less scatter if within X" of an icon) so that the synergy is maintained but from the other direction; sucks for the time being of course, but there's still hope that it's an option that isn't gone for good, but since it was a good option for combined chaos marine and daemon lists then it may become a feature of the daemons themselves since it makes more sense for them to have it rather than the other way around.

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 14:45
Very few of the points costs make any sense. 22pt chainfist upgrades, 6ppm for 6++sv's on Spawn, +1ld and Hatred Space Marines is 1ppm but Fearless is 25pts no matter the size of the unit and can be lose, etc.

There's a whole lot about this book that feels very confused and not entirely thought out, from Ld8 Oblits that aren't Fearless anymore, to Berzerkers having only 1A base, 31pt Terminators and 7pt fist upgrades, etc.

I'm cool with the Oblits not being Fearless anymore since it means I can "go to ground" if I must. Obliterators tend to get a lot of saturation fire that goes straight to their Invulnerable save. Most people would rather Mark them Nurgle and plant then in some nice cover save terrain feature than have to Mark them all Tzentch. :)

A.T.
04-10-2012, 15:00
There's a whole lot about this book that feels very confused and not entirely thought outYou could almost say it's (puts on sunglasses) chaotic.

There are worse things to be than odd, at least the codex has plenty of viable options and a range of workable playstyles - the old one was falling a bit into "prince, plagues, and oblits" territory.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-10-2012, 19:07
Yeah I've been trying to absorb that change for my Emperor's children. While we do have the option of the SC as well as the Lord it does mean some big changes for cult armies. We either take The Lord or we have to make do with cultists and marked CSM as troops. Neither is necessarily horrible, but perhaps needlessly restrictive when the same rule could have been applied to sorcerers and daemon princes too.

Well, I think I get why that was done. Think of the BL books for a minute.

How many of those have a Sorcerer leading an army of cult troops, beyond the Thousand Sons? I can't think of any. Come to think of it, the only one I can remember where a sorcerer was leading the Dragon Warriors CSM at all is in the Salamander books, and they are an Undivided group. Every time I've ever seen a sorcerer in a BL book, he's subservient to a Chaos Lord.

Similarly, There's not that many DP's leading Cult armies either. Kor Megron and Voldorius are the only two that I can think that weren't previously Primarchs, and both of those led Undivided armies also (Word Bearers and Alpha Legion respectively.)

So it DOES kind of make sense when you look at the fluff coming out of BL.

Navar
04-10-2012, 19:28
Well, I think I get why that was done. Think of the BL books for a minute.

How many of those have a Sorcerer leading an army of cult troops, beyond the Thousand Sons? I can't think of any. Come to think of it, the only one I can remember where a sorcerer was leading the Dragon Warriors CSM at all is in the Salamander books, and they are an Undivided group. Every time I've ever seen a sorcerer in a BL book, he's subservient to a Chaos Lord.

Similarly, There's not that many DP's leading Cult armies either. Kor Megron and Voldorius are the only two that I can think that weren't previously Primarchs, and both of those led Undivided armies also (Word Bearers and Alpha Legion respectively.)

So it DOES kind of make sense when you look at the fluff coming out of BL.

Eh, you are looking at a very small segment, and then forgetting about Ve'Meth, Gelentius Vorp, and their Plague Marines.

This just reinforces my opinion that Forgeworld is the real GW.

I am sure that we will have an awesome Death Guard list with Plague Marines, Bikes, Havocs, Terminators, etc. before we get a new Chaos Codex (and even then it might still fail to mean expectations.)

AlphariusOmegon20
04-10-2012, 19:47
Eh, you are looking at a very small segment, and then forgetting about Ve'Meth, Gelentius Vorp, and their Plague Marines.

This just reinforces my opinion that Forgeworld is the real GW.

I am sure that we will have an awesome Death Guard list with Plague Marines, Bikes, Havocs, Terminators, etc. before we get a new Chaos Codex (and even then it might still fail to mean expectations.)

Considering I'm sitting right next to a very large book case filled with over 300 BL novels on it, I doubt it. ;)

That doesn't count every codex ever printed for every army, and White Dwarf, going back to Issue 190, sitting on a separate book case, right next to the BL one.

So no, not a small cross section, there just aren't that many examples of either Sorcs or DP's leading armies to begin with, and only a small percentage of those are cases of Cult troops being led by either.

Navar
04-10-2012, 20:14
Considering I'm sitting right next to a very large book case filled with over 300 BL novels on it, I doubt it. ;)

That doesn't count every codex ever printed for every army, and White Dwarf, going back to Issue 190, sitting on a separate book case, right next to the BL one.

So no, not a small cross section, there just aren't that many examples of either Sorcs or DP's leading armies to begin with, and only a small percentage of those are cases of Cult troops being led by either.

I didn't mean to AT ALL insult your collection. Please let me be very clear. I am VERY SORRY that I unintentionally insulted your collection. I should have been more clear and I was not. Again I am sorry.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant was that Black Library is a small sample of the events that are going on in the 40k universe.

I will try to think of some examples, but Vraks comes to mind off of the top of my head, and of course Ve'Meth.

My point was though that it is a big, big universe out there, and we can only obtain so much information about it.

Again I am sorry that I insulted you, it was not my intent.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-10-2012, 21:34
I didn't mean to AT ALL insult your collection. Please let me be very clear. I am VERY SORRY that I unintentionally insulted your collection. I should have been more clear and I was not. Again I am sorry.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant was that Black Library is a small sample of the events that are going on in the 40k universe.

I will try to think of some examples, but Vraks comes to mind off of the top of my head, and of course Ve'Meth.

My point was though that it is a big, big universe out there, and we can only obtain so much information about it.

Again I am sorry that I insulted you, it was not my intent.

LOL first off I wasn't insulted. It takes far, far more than that to insult me. The point of bringing up my "colllection" was that I do research such things, and use that collection as reference material, as I do have the same questions and curiosity as everyone else, including on the issue we are discussing. My point was in all that "collection", there aren't a lot of examples of it happening. That's not to say it can't, I never said that. I said that looking at what we do have, it hasn't been a common thing. Another sorc that hasn't been mentioned is Ygthmor the Deceiver, invader of Medusa V, but it could be argued that, even in that case, Abbadon was pulling the strings.

Second, even Vraks is a bad example. I assume you're referring to Mamon or Uraka. Mamon didn't become a DP until much later in the war (he was originally human at the start of the war and only became a DP after he and Xaphan were removed from power by Zhufor) and prior to that, EVERYONE deferred to Zhufor post coup,with the exception of the Tainted, who paid only lip service to him for the most part. Even Necrosius ( Who is a sorc that leads the Apostles of Contagion, I'll admit I had forgotten about him until writing this answer to your post) deferred to Zhufor as Supreme War Commander, for at least a while.

Neither Uraka nor Mamon was in charge until after Zhufor had been defeated and the war was winding down by that point.

Also I have to point out to others that Neither An'ggrath nor Scabeithrax are listed as Daemon Princes because they are not, someone posted that they were, either in this thread or the other similar one. They are a Bloodthirster Lord and a Great Unclean One lord, respectively.

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2012, 21:51
Nevertheless, it is unnecessarily limiting. While cult warbands may well be lead by a Chaos Lord, that's pretty much true of most chaos forces with some exceptions. There's no restriction if you want CSM as troops and you're free to take whomever you wish as your HQ. If a Daemon Prince can lead an Iron Warriors or Black Legion warband, why is it disallowed for a World Eaters warband? A simple rule allowing Cults as Troops providing they shared a mark with the Warlord could achieve this with much less rules wording than what we have now.

I guess it really makes an incentive to take Chaos Lords but as usual it feels like a hamfisted way of doing it. A Chaos Lord (or SC) now seems the default choice. Daemon Princes are priced so high I fear we won't see them at all anymore. The other HQs seem to have their uses as a secondary HQ.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-10-2012, 23:29
Nevertheless, it is unnecessarily limiting. While cult warbands may well be lead by a Chaos Lord, that's pretty much true of most chaos forces with some exceptions. There's no restriction if you want CSM as troops and you're free to take whomever you wish as your HQ. If a Daemon Prince can lead an Iron Warriors or Black Legion warband, why is it disallowed for a World Eaters warband? A simple rule allowing Cults as Troops providing they shared a mark with the Warlord could achieve this with much less rules wording than what we have now.

I guess it really makes an incentive to take Chaos Lords but as usual it feels like a hamfisted way of doing it. A Chaos Lord (or SC) now seems the default choice. Daemon Princes are priced so high I fear we won't see them at all anymore. The other HQs seem to have their uses as a secondary HQ.

No offense, LI, but since when was GW NOT hamfisted about their approach to things that would make sense to do?

Lord Inquisitor
05-10-2012, 00:08
Well yeah.

Actually I had a bit more foolish hope that 6th ed would see a reboot of the codex design the way the 8th ed WFB books did. At least they do seem to be making an effort not to continue codex creep and there were a number of things that are quite cool but, much like the 6th ed core rules themselves, it feels like a lot of cool ideas and none of them were quite followed through to completion. I wasn't a big fan of the 8th ed core rules and it was the army books that have really made this the best edition yet and I had this silly hope 40K would follow suit.

Of course, there's always the conspiracy theory perspective. "We've sold lots of daemon princes, now let's make everyone buy SCs and Chaos Lords!" I normally dismiss this line of thinking but it is hard to ignore the possibility with the massive points hike in daemon princes. Daemon princes might have been great in 4th but in 6th I've been getting to the point of dropping my prince in favour of characters as he just dies turn 1. The new costs with no increase in durability even after buying upgrades makes it hard to justify one ever.

IcedCrow
05-10-2012, 16:00
Nevertheless, it is unnecessarily limiting. While cult warbands may well be lead by a Chaos Lord, that's pretty much true of most chaos forces with some exceptions. There's no restriction if you want CSM as troops and you're free to take whomever you wish as your HQ. If a Daemon Prince can lead an Iron Warriors or Black Legion warband, why is it disallowed for a World Eaters warband? A simple rule allowing Cults as Troops providing they shared a mark with the Warlord could achieve this with much less rules wording than what we have now.

I guess it really makes an incentive to take Chaos Lords but as usual it feels like a hamfisted way of doing it. A Chaos Lord (or SC) now seems the default choice. Daemon Princes are priced so high I fear we won't see them at all anymore. The other HQs seem to have their uses as a secondary HQ.

My 40k league army features two configurations (both nurgle)
* Demon prince with dark apostle
* Sorcerer with dark apostle

I don't feel the compulsorary urge to always have a chaos lord so I can min/max my cult troops. I field two units of plague marines and a unit of terminators, and sometimes drop a unit of plague marines for another elite slot. I feel this is ok. My troops are loaded out with two CSM units with mark of nurgle and two units of nurgly cultists.

I may at times take a chaos lord, but it's not so I can field plague marines as troop choices. It's because I may want to have a chaos lord leading my army. My background for our league/campaign is that it is a mixture of a fictional just-turned chapter led by a demonically possessed librarian so it features veteran units (plague marines) with newer converts (CSM unit without veteran of the long war benefits). The only issue I am having with this is that without the veteran of the long war, my units are no longer WYSIWYG as my chaos marines have mixed chainswords and bolters and without the veteran status, my guys technically don't have combat weapons.