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View Full Version : Chaos Terminator Champions and stupid priced wargear



Rovient
04-10-2012, 00:41
Having glanced over the entry for Chaos Terminators, the costs of melee wargear has dropped a little (yay), EXCEPT, not for the Champion. While any regular Terminator can take a pair of lightning claws for the same price as an IG veteran, the champion would need to replace his combi-bolter for the cost equal to about that of a loyalist marine, and then also replace his power weapon for the cost of a Tau Firewarrior.

This means, if I'm reading it correctly, the different between a regular terminator with dual LCs and a Champion with dual LCs is a whopping 20pts!

Wat?!

Flufflyrabbit
04-10-2012, 00:48
I don't think that's the case. The normal options in the same entry applies to the Champion as well. The only difference from the wargear list is you can mix weaponry slightly differently, f.e. champ with CF + LC

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 01:03
Having glanced over the entry for Chaos Terminators, the costs of melee wargear has dropped a little (yay), EXCEPT, not for the Champion. While any regular Terminator can take a pair of lightning claws for the same price as an IG veteran, the champion would need to replace his combi-bolter for the cost equal to about that of a loyalist marine, and then also replace his power weapon for the cost of a Tau Firewarrior.

This means, if I'm reading it correctly, the different between a regular terminator with dual LCs and a Champion with dual LCs is a whopping 20pts!

Wat?!

15 points.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 01:49
Yeah the champion terminator options are a joke

As to the codex itself well.....

The poor thing has caught a bad case of Nid syndrome.

As in this is not quite the finished product it should be. The Nids codex also had delayment rumours surrounding it and i have a feeling that this is what happens when for some reason large sections of the codex are changed just before printing, ias in perhaps the paradigm shift due to the CHS case managed to just clip the chaos codex and they dropped a lot from it due to model support.

As it stands GW has basically put minimal effort into this codex and relied on the popularity of "chaos" to sell it, they did the same thing with the nid dex, which was the most popular after space marines, and it blew up in their face.

Rovient
04-10-2012, 02:03
I'm also noticing that Icons no longer allow a safe deepstrike (but rather +1 to result of assault phase), which means my Daemon allies and massive terminator blob will no longer be lower risk around my CSM units.

Annoyingly, since I went to the effort of making icons for all of my units, I feel compelled to give them all at least Icon of Vengeance which is more than double my old favourite icon.

Finally, the removal of the old Daemon weapons in favour of the incredibly expensive 3 we have now is a real shame. Especially as the most useful one requires the Mark of Khorne to even use it.

There's plenty of good stuff in the codex too, but so far, nothing that makes my Word Bearers smile.

ehlijen
04-10-2012, 02:28
I can see why a champion would pay slightly more, given that he'd have better stats and can challenge/accept and land precision strikes.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 02:30
yeah but 3 times is a bit steep when the only benefit over a single claw for a third of the price is a single attack.

Gig
04-10-2012, 02:31
Shame that he has to challenge so the instant he encounters a TH/SS terminator or Necron Lord he is dead

ehlijen
04-10-2012, 02:34
Not neccessarily. If he encounters one of this with his claws, he gets to strike first and potentially drop the I1/2 opponent. Even a 3+ invul save is not infallible.

Gig
04-10-2012, 02:43
His Lightning claw doesn't even penetrate there 2+ save, and he also has to pass a 3d6 leadership test against the Necron Lord

ehlijen
04-10-2012, 03:02
True, but he would almost certainly defeat a power fist power armour model.

If you're worried about him facing 2+ save models, give him an AP2 weapon (and take the I hit they have to take to get through your 2+ save). Or get a maul and try to get more wounds, hoping to gring through the 2+ save.

And if the lord has the scarabs you want claws so as to avoid piercing your own armour! :p

Rovient
04-10-2012, 07:55
I can see why a champion would pay slightly more, given that he'd have better stats and can challenge/accept and land precision strikes.
You would think so but he has exactly the same stats as the regular terminator. Even Ld.

RTB01
04-10-2012, 08:18
The issue raised here is the general issue with the codex in that there is so much room for customization but the cost is prohibitive unless you want a couple of squads and little else. It's a shame as the dark eldar and necron codexes are both superb yet the ball seems to be a little dropped on this. I'll give it a go, but it's a mare trying to put together a 1500 point list!

FallenAfh
04-10-2012, 08:56
You're not reading the book right. You get 4 autocannon havocs for 115, and double melta/plasma bikes for 90/100, no other codex does this as cheaply or efficiently.

Johnmclane
04-10-2012, 09:02
Exactly. Havocs will be the way to go. At 2 S7 shots each at BS 4 they hit pretty good. That's 8 S7 BS4 shots each turn for halv the price of a forgefiend (8 S8 shots at bs 3 with shorter range).

Rovient
04-10-2012, 09:07
As a little experiment, I built my regular 1500 list again using the new codex. It came to 1536, which is annoying. There are pros and cons to this new 6th edition list:

Terminator Lord with Daemon weapon
8 Terminators
2 x 10 CSM with Plasma, ML and Icon
Rhino for one CSM unit
Dread/Helbrute with Reaper
Defiler
2x2 Oblits

Pros:
+ Lord in Terminator armour is cheaper
+ The icon I chose provides Fearless and +1 to assault result (much better than just Re-roll Ld tests with the old equivalent)
+ Dread is a little cheaper and now way more useful due to the change in the crazed rule (all results are GOOD, even if they're not quite what you'd have liked perhaps).
+ Defiler now has a 5++, it will not die, Daemon forge special rule and comes with Battle cannon, Reaper and TL Heavy Flamer as standard.
+ I now have access to 4 assault cannons from Oblits

Cons:
- Oblits are now not fearless
- Lord no longer has access to a simple daemon weapon, must choose an artefact which have restrictions, high cost and pros and cons in themselves
- Terminator champion weapon upgrades are disgustingly expensive (unless I'm reading the entry wrong).
- Icons are now 25 pts for the cheapest (unless you take marks) for marines, and 35 for Terminators
- Icons no longer prevent scatter of DS units. No one can buy personal icons either. No teleport beacons that I can see at all.
- Defiler is now 45 pts more standard (but I believe probably worth the extra points still).
- I cannot attack with my oblits twice in a row with the same weapon

So a mixed bag really. In some ways my army is better, in other ways it is worse. I'll have to play some games to see what works and what doesn't.

Rovient
04-10-2012, 09:08
Duplicate post. Please delete if you can.

Athlan na Dyr
04-10-2012, 09:31
Exactly. Havocs will be the way to go. At 2 S7 shots each at BS 4 they hit pretty good. That's 8 S7 BS4 shots each turn for halv the price of a forgefiend (8 S8 shots at bs 3 with shorter range).

I think your cost comparison for havocs vs. the Forgefiend is off, as the five basic havocs are over 100 and the Forgefiend is sub 200. Not to mention the better mobility, improved hardiness, strength + other benefits the Forgefiend receives. To summarise, I don't think the way to go is all too clear just yet.

As a general question, how many were using twin LC Terminator Champions before?

Johnmclane
04-10-2012, 09:41
I'll probably use a forgefiend and a havoc squad. The havocs still have longer range and are not as 'all eggs in one basket' as the forgefiend.

Athlan na Dyr
04-10-2012, 10:04
I'll probably use a forgefiend and a havoc squad. The havocs still have longer range and are not as 'all eggs in one basket' as the forgefiend.

I'm thinking the same. Except maybe two of the former and one of the later (I'm a sucker for large machine guns :D). Depends on how much the FW autocannon set ends up being (Should be 11 pounds for a set as that seems to be the norm at the moment).
Oh god, just looked at the FW site. Must. Restrain. Urge. To. Empty. Wallet.

BTJ
04-10-2012, 10:36
I read it that the champion can take the same options the squad can.Just that if you use the armoury list, it's a bit dearer for different combos of options

Narf
04-10-2012, 10:59
the champion also has advantages of rolling on the boon list, yes you've paid more for some lightning claws, however the first squad sageant he kills can do anything from spawn him, to DP him, with lots of stuff in between.

Its the reverse of older edition where the summoned GD that killed a character cost 60pts, because it removed the character, here you pay extra points as each character from squad level updwards has the chance of becoming a daemon prince.

when you factor that in, you can see why they want you to pay more for squad level characters, so that you dont spam them to much, its quite good in its own way

daboarder
04-10-2012, 11:23
I read it that the champion can take the same options the squad can.Just that if you use the armoury list, it's a bit dearer for different combos of options

I'm not sure how.

A chaos terminator is not the same thing as a terminator champion.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 11:42
Am i the only one that finds it disturbing
that there is not a single unit in the codex that can infiltrate.

Beeing how chaos has two legions know for their infiltration skills (alpha legion and knight lords)
And a big part of choas fluff is the loyalist first having to find out that chaos is indeed behind the problems on a world)

Also its a fairly common ability in fact as far as i can tell every army except demons has at least one unit whit infiltrate.

Thank god they changed chosen to marines whit two attacks cause in a armie whit possesd beserkers and marks of khornes all round more combat specialist was surely needed.

All in all I find this book lack luster in desing. It just pushes the new vehicles and i gues they want to sell more bikes but thats about it

I makes me sad .

;-(

daboarder
04-10-2012, 11:44
Nid syndrome

Threeshades
04-10-2012, 12:04
i havent seen the Terminator options yet but to me it sounds a lot like what happened with the Wolf Guard 'nator options.

Can someone confirm/debunk what flufflybunny said, about the normal temrinator options applying to the champ as well?

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:19
i havent seen the Terminator options yet but to me it sounds a lot like what happened with the Wolf Guard 'nator options.

Can someone confirm/debunk what flufflybunny said, about the normal temrinator options applying to the champ as well?

already have,

Options are for CHAOS TERMINATORS, TERMINATOR CHAMPION has access to the terminator weapons section of the wargear.

Rovient
04-10-2012, 12:36
already have,

Options are for CHAOS TERMINATORS, TERMINATOR CHOSEN has access to the terminator weapons section of the wargear.

Chosen can't take terminator armour. Do you mean Terminator Champion? Honest mistake to make.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:41
yeah fixed thanks

Latro_
04-10-2012, 12:47
Am i the only one that finds it disturbing
that there is not a single unit in the codex that can infiltrate.

Beeing how chaos has two legions know for their infiltration skills (alpha legion and knight lords)
And a big part of choas fluff is the loyalist first having to find out that chaos is indeed behind the problems on a world)

Also its a fairly common ability in fact as far as i can tell every army except demons has at least one unit whit infiltrate.

Thank god they changed chosen to marines whit two attacks cause in a armie whit possesd beserkers and marks of khornes all round more combat specialist was surely needed.

All in all I find this book lack luster in desing. It just pushes the new vehicles and i gues they want to sell more bikes but thats about it

I makes me sad .

;-(

D3 units can infiltrate, you just have to take Arhiman or Huron :D, huron aint to shabby really

DarkMark
04-10-2012, 12:59
it's a mare trying to put together a 1500 point list!

Its almost as if GW wants people to up the average game point values, or you stay at 1500 and miss all the fun. Hmm... I wonder.:p

ehlijen
04-10-2012, 14:28
Its almost as if GW wants people to up the average game point values, or you stay at 1500 and miss all the fun. Hmm... I wonder.:p

Or maybe GW is trying to reduce the number of models required to lower the barrier of entrance into the hobby as some people occasionally suggest while reminiscing about 2nd ed? Hm, nah, that's not sufficiently pointlessly evil.

IcedAnimals
04-10-2012, 23:02
My army got nothing but better. Fabius no longer has any negative. And Lucius and my noise marines are all amazing. Throw in my bikers being crazy good for huge point reduction

dOOHICKY
04-10-2012, 23:57
My army got nothing but better. Fabius no longer has any negative. And Lucius and my noise marines are all amazing. Throw in my bikers being crazy good for huge point reduction

If you run lucius you HAVE to run a full 20 man MON CSM squad. 20 S5, T5 CSMs... why yes please!
OR Mark of slaneesh on them with Icon of Excess and 2 x CC weapons. Huron as Warmaster.
Huge S5 I5 squad in your face very quickly!

TK-421
05-10-2012, 00:03
Looking at the new models and everything I'm thinking might as well just go grab a FW heresy army instead of splashing out on more CSM

Chem-Dog
05-10-2012, 00:33
As far as I understand it a Termi Champion can get incredibly well buffed by God boons.
A champ who can potentially grab extra strength, attacks and all other kinds of scary melee enhancing abilities (not to mention turning into a DP), having no cheap weapon swap options makes a certain amount of sense, 2+ saves can knock back a phenomenal amount of damage, especially in combat where not everyone is able to bring AP 2 in decent quantities and even when they can it often comes at the expense of striking at I1.
No, I don't think that guy should get any breaks when purchasing wargear.

slave
05-10-2012, 03:24
The demon weapon thing is just silly. There are now 6 demon weapons in the entire universe. One Black Mace, One axe of blind rage, Typhus has a scythe, Abbadon has a sword, and the imperium has two (GK, SW).

The fact that our box of terminators is down right criminal. You can upgrade the combi-weapon OR the power weapon.

If you have P fists on your models and used the combi-weapons, that combo is now illegal.

The mace price replaced the lash prince. I was on the somethingawful forums, they where discussing the codex. Even those degenerates agreed, the mace prince is the new lash prince.

Our characters MUST challenge, yet have no reliable way to beat artificer armor or terminator armor. It's best to keep your lord to killing sergeants, least he get his teeth kicked in.

Noise marines get a 5 initiative, yet can't assault due to the sonic blaster being salvo.

If you had a fluffy squad of 6 noise marines, you now have 5, as you can not take your blast master anymore, not until you have an unfluffy squad of 10.

A DP of Khorne does not have the mark of khorne, so can not take the axe of blind fury.

A model with the mark of khorne already has rage, yet the axe gives you rage.

Princes must be marked, if your lord has no mark, and rolls the DP boon, he can't become a prince. Do you remove him?

Keys gives boost to deep strike, yet very little in the army uses deep strike.

Wow, glad I saw the leaked one, saved me $50 USD. I can sit out of 40K for the next 4 years until they fix this book.

Daedalus81
05-10-2012, 04:24
CSM champion costs 10 points.
Cultist Champ is 10 points.
All the others (except TS) seem to be 10 points.
Terminator champ is 2 points, but pays a few extra points for options.

Big whoop.

blackcherry
05-10-2012, 08:38
Ha. Well I'm glad someone said it :p. Cheers Daedalus81.

Its as if the internet can't accept a chaos codex unless its as broken as the 3.5 dex. Which of course the designers never want to repeat again. Why can't people accept that?

daboarder
05-10-2012, 09:11
The terminator champion can take the options as the Terminators can, it would be idiotic for him not to. RAW yes maybe, but it's simply put total tosh. You're quibbling over word errors. This level of gravitas would make you think we are speaking about government policy that would adversely effect you're lives. It's a games book, using legalese is moronic.

And really was the whining not enough on one thread that ANOTHER had to be made?! Is your need to vent your rage so great? Buy a punch bag or something.

UM NO!

the wording for model names that designates what options he can or cannot take is VERY specific,

its also why you do not get upgrades on sanguinary initiates in BA honour guards, apothecaries in SM command squads, why squad leaders may not take special or heavy weapon, why you cannot gie a terminator champion a reaper auto cannon or a terminator sergeant an assault cannon.

The terminator champion may ONLY take weapons from the terminator section of the wargear, he DOES NOT get the options from the army list entry.

edit: Not to mention that this thread is DAYS old so if you feel the need to whine so much about someone elses expression of thought go grab some cheese.

Excessus
05-10-2012, 10:37
Haha, so the champ have no AP2 weapons if he wants a LC? Seriously? You know what, a chainfist is also a specialist weapon, so just take a chain/power fist and a lightning claw, choose every turn wich one you want, and gain an attack for both options! :P

t-tauri
05-10-2012, 17:52
A number of posts removed. Please discuss without resorting to insults.

thanoson
08-10-2012, 17:26
Ha. Well I'm glad someone said it :p. Cheers Daedalus81.

Its as if the internet can't accept a chaos codex unless its as broken as the 3.5 dex. Which of course the designers never want to repeat again. Why can't people accept that?

That's just it though. 3.5 isn't as broken with the newer codex's that have come out. It's about on par with blood angels and Grey Knights. You could make your army any way you wanted with pros and cons to each list. Yes, some folks abused the hell out of it, but no more than what people are abusing in other codex. And looking how some of the rules work now, the most abusive thing in that list can't be done now anyways; Demonbomb.

I think what people wanted was something that feels like we have something special and not rushed. We want the 'OMG" moment in our codex.

A.T.
08-10-2012, 17:31
Yes, some folks abused the hell out of it, but no more than what people are abusing in other codex.Siren prince uses immunity to attack - it's super effective! (yes, I know it was mostly due to the daemonbomb followup)

Vaktathi
08-10-2012, 17:37
I can see why a champion would pay slightly more, given that he'd have better stats and can challenge/accept and land precision strikes.The problem is that he doesn't actually have better stats (champ is identical to everyone else), doesn't have a choice in accepting or issuing challenges (must always challenge, must always accept), and for many options pays *significantly* more for everything and not just "a bit" unfortunately. No other armies have pay such a premium it'd be surprising to see others follow the CSM book and force them to pay more as well.

A.T.
08-10-2012, 18:07
No other armies have pay such a premium it'd be surprising to see others follow the CSM book and force them to pay more as well.It's the old wargear list system, once price fits all. Sisters of Battle were using the same system until the pamphlet last year.
The templars still use a variant on it with weapons priced twice (for single wound and multi-wound models) - that codex is still current.

It's a drawback to having such a large wargear selection - the choice is to either have a confusing templar style split price or just price on a 'worst case scenario' basis and try to either mitigate it (mutations) or ignore it (sisters).

Flufflyrabbit
08-10-2012, 21:55
I still stand at what I said. I believe the option listed in the entry still applies to the champion itself, rather than the Champion choosing his TLC through the Wargear list. Above the unit entry it's listed "Chaos Terminators". Either you're a normal Terminator or a Terminator Champion, it's still a Chaos Terminator... so all options apply to the whole squad, even the champion. The only difference the champion can make is to gear himself a bit differently from the whole squad.

F.e.: You're equipping the whole unit with combi-melta for DSing near vehicles. Doing this your unit cannot choosing another option because of their limitation of choosing 1 of the 3 only. Despite this, only the Champion can add something more to the unit using his privilege accessing the wargearlist, so you're choosing f.e. a Chainfist as a safety measure aside the combi-melta.

Same applies to many entries in our codex.:

- Can't a Cultist Champion swap his autopistol for a autogun because he isn't a Chaos Cultist? Nonsense, ofc he can. He might be a champion, but still a Chaos Cultist.
- Can't a Chosen Champion get a combi weapon? He isn't a Chosen.... Nonsense, ofc he can. He might be a Champion but he is still a Chosen.

and so on and so on. Take a good look at other entries and you can probably make up as well we shouldn't read some things too literally.

Freman Bloodglaive
08-10-2012, 23:11
A Terminator Champion is not a Chaos Terminator, he's a Terminator Champion.

Just like you can't give the squad heavy weapon to a tactical squad sergeant because he's not a tactical marine, he's a sergeant.

Where it says "any model may" then the sergeant can take the option. Where it says "a Chaos Terminator can" then it's Chaos Terminators only.

The Chaos Cultist Champion cannot take an autogun because he's not a Chaos Cultist, he can take a shotgun because he has it as an option for the Chaos Cultist Champion to take a shotgun.

The Chosen have the option for up to four "models," note not specifically Chosen. Therefore the Chosen Champion can be one of the four models that can take options from their list. That said, if you were making a melee squad you'd buy weapons for four Chosen, then take the weapons for the Champion from the wargear list.

This has been the rule for every Codex since at least second edition. Sergeants cannot take squad equipment unless there is a provision that the upgrade is for "models."

Athlan na Dyr
08-10-2012, 23:15
I disagree Fluffy.
The Chaos Terminators entry is split into two parts: The Terminator Champion and the Chaos Terminator. Options are provided for Chaos Terminator and the Terminator Champion, not the Chaos Terminators which is the unit entry. Also note that the unit options are specified as such (one model in the unit may take an icon and so on). They aren't reffered to as 'any chaos terminator may take a mark'.
The two are clearly separated.

Similarly the Cultist Champion can't take an autogun, nor a heavy stubber or flamer. He isn't a Chaos Cultist.
Chosen Champs can't take lascannons and so on (unless its an option in the melee weapons/ ranged weapons).

How else are we supposed to read rules if not literally?

Edit: What Bloodglaive said.

Rovient
08-10-2012, 23:29
Yep, so in conclusion, if I know for a fact that my Characters will always challenge Hive Tyrants etc. to honourable combat, there's no point in spending points on them. Sadly, instead I've made my TLC wielding Terminator Champion just a regular terminator, and have upgraded a Combi-bolter and a Power Axe armed Terminator to the Champion. That's 20 pts saved! nearly enough to buy an icon that makes the whole unit fearless.

I know which one will be more useful.

I think this thread can be put out to pasture now. Leave me to my misery...

Flufflyrabbit
08-10-2012, 23:29
Ok, I give up.