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Murphey
04-10-2012, 10:36
So, I've had a chance to sit and really read the new codex through and digest it for a while, and I have a number of impressions coming away from it.

First off, I enjoy the codex. It's artwork is, overall, quite good. It has a ton of different options when compared to the previous codex, and it has an armory, which is a huge plus for me.

(Subnote on the art: There's two pieces that feature the Heldrake, one looks awesome because it looks nothing like the model (looks waaaaay more dragonesque) and another that looks lame because, well, it looks like the model. Dinobots, Go!)

Kelly did a great job of trying to give people the options to make diverse army builds all themed to certain gods. I'm disappointed there's no special rules for legions like in the 3.5 codex, but this is about the best we could expect from the current style of codices.

Mechanically, many things in the codex seem very high cost/overcosted. This might just be because of the insanely unbalanced point costs we've seen coming from codices by Ward (Or Cruddace's IG), but I do feel like many of the units are not that competitively costed for their capabilities. The heldrake in particular seems about 30 points over what it should be, mainly due to it's lackluster offense, especially when you look at vendetta gunships and the like.

Many of the new units seem to virtually lack any options, which is irksome to me. This is so heavily contrasted compared to other units that it's even more glaring. I feel like things like the fiends and heldrake really should have had more customizability.

Some of the icons are terribly overpriced for what they do. The Tzeentch and Nurgle ones are the most guilty of this. When you run the math with both of them, they're simply not worth the cost, in my opinion.

The demon princes are a bit of a head scratcher for me. They lack Eternal Warrior, have less leadership than what one would expect, and don't benefit from marks in the same way. They also get VERY expensive very quickly. Also, weirdest of all, they don't get to roll on the boon table when they kill enemy characters. I still plan on using one in my army, but that's more due to a thematic idea than anything else.

One thing that surprised me is the lack of solid anti-flyer options in the codex. Havoks can get flack missiles, but the math on them is hardly advantageous given the cost of the missile launcher and the upgrade. The Heldrake simply gets outclassed in flyer v. flyer combat by many things 50 points cheaper. I guess I just expected that, with how powerful, omnipresent, and cheap many flyers are in the game, that 6th edition codices would try and bring them better in line. A bit disappointing, but manageable. (My main is currently Tau, and it's not like they are overwhelmed with all their access to skyfire.)

Also, I'm a little surprised that they didn't really play up the allying with demons angle in this codex. There's no access to teleport homers or anything focused on synergizing with demons (overtly, anyhow).

Overall, I'm enjoying the codex, although I'm a little worried about the high costs of many of the units when compared to what they can do, and when compared to the current game context.

Scammel
04-10-2012, 11:21
I must say I'm feeling a tad disappointed. I'm comfortable with the power level (though 'balanced' in today's game really means 'a bit underpowered'), it's just that I don't really feel I'll be playing a different book to the previous one. I was hoping for a grand 'Kellification', where every unit has cool rules and unique weapons and options pouring out of their noses, but it strikes me that on a large number of units all we got were more icons and VotLW. A couple of the new units are pretty cool, but the ones that could have been really snazzy (the Daemon Engines) seem a little boring on the tabletop. The Drake is little more than a standard flyer with VS, the FF isn't much more than a boggo shooting platform and the MF, whilst awesomely fast, isn't much more terrifying than A.N.Other Dread. Heck, they actually cut back on the number of Daemon Weapons! I can't shake this feeling that I'll still be seeing the same armies, with roughly the same points, with roughly the same rules. There was an opportunity for a shake-up but it doesn't seem to have really happened.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 11:22
Personally I love the background, artwork and its a joy to read the book.

But it has Nid syndrome!

Depulsor
04-10-2012, 11:27
Well, this codex is MUCH better, than the last chaos codex.

But sadly, the writer seemed to be TERRIBLY afraid to make anything overpowered. Everywere it seems, were some random points added, just to make sure, its not too powerfull.
I mean... whats with all these AV12 vehicles that cost more than AV14 leman russes? Really???

But all in all, I think its a codex, which is OK. Could have been much more, but its not horrible.
And it has some nice options, synergies and little gems.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 11:29
eh, If anything I'd say its merely on par with the old one.

Old options are gone and new ones are in. The drastic problems have been fixed but other's have taken their place...

for example, the spawn or daemon boon is basically jsut going to kill your model more often than not as if it can't be placed "within 3"" it is removed. and even if it does get placed it is then "unengaged".

Rovient
04-10-2012, 11:48
Lots of good stuff, lots of bad. One that hits me as being just a real let down is being unable to re-roll your Gift on the D66 table if a model already has that ability or power (such as fearless or Eternal Warrior etc). That roll is just lost!

I guess that's why you take a dark apostle?

Dark Apostles aren't as bad as I initially thought - their 3+/4++ could actually make them more survivable in general (assaults in particular), especially if you drop the pts on mark of Tzeench too to give him a 3+/3++. However, if you've taken his already high standard pts cost, add on an artifact like the Black Mace, and then a mark, then a gift to roll for at the start of the game, we're talking near 200 pts for a 2W character.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 11:56
So, legion rules are out? Does this mean Khorne armies made up of all berserkers are out? What about the silly retcon that has Night Lords having mass raptors? Are cult terminators in, as in do I have a purpose again for my highly customized sonic terminators?

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:01
NOPE! nothing zip nilche, what was rumoured in the last couple of weeks was pretty much the whole codex.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 12:07
I am a little sad about it

I can't believe some of the choise they mad

i mean a defilers is 195 points? come on that is just insanely over priced for what is basicly a dreadnought whit a battle cannon.
Sure it got a lot better than it was but a 30% price increase.

Also I hate all the none wierd changes

Ah marines got 2 points cheaper but lost their combat weapon ah and you can get that back for 2 points. Oh nice.

Ok now you can play them as normal marines for less if you want. But if you wanted to do that why not just use the normal marine codex?

It also pisses me off as a alpha legion player that there is no way to get infiltrate on any unit.
We went form all infiltrate to no infiltrate in 2 versions of the book. Nice

Not to mention that the army as a whole realy realy realy did not need the chosen to change into a combat unit. It's not like there is not enough choice for that already.

OH and OMG are bikes undercosted compaired to normal marines

lets pay 5 points to get my weapon twinlinked a impact hit double movement and +1t hell yes.

Also I hate how the hid all the old runes in the new special rules.
Sure oblitorators are still 2+/5++ but only if you realise that they are deamons and deamons get a 5++ save.
Could they not at least print it in the unit entry?


Overall I feel
This version took away some options
Added a lot of needles complexion, and realy pushes the new deamonengine models cause they are awesome
And i gues they wanted to sell more bikes

Omegon
04-10-2012, 12:13
I disagree on the point of everyone taking the same army, I think the opposite will take effect (bar some exceptions; everyone will take a black mace). I think peoples army lists will become more diverse if anything due to the large number of options available. There are some very nice options. I am still really annoyed about the Terminators being nerfed (the nerfing itself isn't annoying it's having to remodel centre piece models to make them WYSIWYG that infuriating).
Daemon Princes.... yeah bit of a head scratcher, but hey! No more Telekinesis instead they get Biomancy; WIN!
With things being overcosted, which basically is the Icons IMO. I think why these are so expensive is that they favour the large unit. Take a particular one that grants Fearless. for a 10 man unit it adds 2.5 points per model, a unit of 20, 1.25, much more respectable.

To summarize I think the winners in this new codex are thus: Spawn, Bikes, Raptors Hell lets just say fast attack, Havocs, Lords, Cultists, Psykers (ish)

Spawn: Seriously Spawn... They're winners?! yes... yes they are shockingly enough. No more Mindless, no more Slow and purposeful. Instead they they get Rage and Fear and able to get to T6 for 6pts more. They are now an effective tarpitting unit with a potential 9 poisoned S5 attacks potentially able to engage anything 24" away. Shame they're competing in the FA slots because....

Bikes:They are competing with Bikes! They're now 20 points a model and they still have base 3 attacks on the charge, and marks are quite cheap for them. a 5 man unit for 110 points is a nice little sucker punch.

Raptors:Same as bikes, not much new (save fear) but they are simply costed correctly now. A unit of 10 with a powerfist in will cost you 205 points rather than 242. Plus Marks and Icons are the winners here.

Havocs: Again, like Raptors and Bikes, they are simply costed far better. Autocannons now only cost 10pts making my inner IW happy as they sit pretty in a Bastion blasting away with entrenched H.Bolters and firepoint Autocannons. The only rather disappointing expensive is a flakk launcher weighing in 25pts total... I guess I understand when compared to the AV10 of most flyers (it's just IG and Crons who like to take the **** with their high AVs).

Lords: They are where they should be now, at the top. They weigh in cheap so if you want a dirt cheap HQ who makes a unit fearless for only over twice the cost of the Icon of Vengeance, he's your man. Equally if you want a killing machine at 210 points that have 2+/3++ save, 13 attacks on the charge and killing everything in base contact on a failed toughness test, he is equally your man.

Cultists:I was ambivalent about these guys as frankly they aren't as good or cheap at tarpitting at the Spawn (seriously, I'm talking tactically about Spawn), nor are they is as good in combat as dedicated units. What they are though are a total game changer for CSM. for 300-320 points (depending on upgrades) your army has 70 extra bodies to deal with... who are scoring, who all have 3 attacks on the charge, that's naked. Stick a lord in there and a unit is fearless. Stick a Dark Apostle in there and they all have Ld 10, and one unit has hatred. Those anti MEQ armies will pee themselves. If an enemy doesn't deal with them they will simply be swamped in bodies.

PsykersWhiles its a mixed big (Kelly why are Sorcerers BS4 now?!?!), Our psykers have lost Telekinesis (OH NOES! *sarcasm) and gained Biomancy... So now the Prince can mess with himself like Flyrants, then Hulk smash a large unit of grunts (Black Mace+Prince+wings+Biomany=********)

So yeah, I will post later what isn't so good, though everything seems at first glance solid.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:15
the defiler is tricky to place,

It has gained 2 power fists without losing its shooting,
iWnD
5++
Fear

not sure if its worth the inccrease....but its close, gonna take a lot of firepower to put one of those down.

Haravikk
04-10-2012, 12:16
I've only had a chance to quickly look over some of it but it's about what I expected to be honest; it seems they're going the same route with the 40k hard-backs that they are with the fantasy ones, with greater balance overall. Unfortunately this means that the early codexes are likely going to be severely outclassed by the massively unbalanced books we've had during 5th edition. With fantasy they seem to be addressing this by bumping up some of the most broken books on the todo list, which likely means some of the most broken books will be getting rewarded with updates fairly soon and leaving the older ones languishing even further, which may mean Tyrannids getting stuck with a White Dwarf update, though if all books are being toned down then they may find themselves on a more level playing field in spite of a lack of an update.

One of the things it seems to have done is made everything a bit uncertain, which sounds weird but is actually a good thing as it means there are very few things you will automatically want to take. This is good since it means that in theory you can just take what you want and make a decently viable list out of it, but given the current state of the other 40k armies it's not quite that simple.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:23
The stupid thing is if they'd kept to the 5th ed level (baring the stupid GK codex) they would be ballanced, as they are pretty much all completely over the top (baring Nids)

bad dice
04-10-2012, 12:25
@daboarder

You do know that getting the extra attacks form the 2 extra close combat weapons now cost points

It also already had two powerfist but they where called dreadnought close combat weapons

What it really gained was

5++
fear
it will not die
and deamon engine

Those are all nice.

But I seriously doubt they are worth the point increase.
Not to mention that whit
oblitorators, havocs and the other engines . Heavy support is crowded ass all hell already.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:27
yes and unless I'm mistaken there is no way to get more attacks, just because you swap out the reaper for a powerfist doesn't give you an extra attack as you already have 2 CCW's

bad dice
04-10-2012, 12:27
I've only had a chance to quickly look over some of it but it's about what I expected to be honest; it seems they're going the same route with the 40k hard-backs that they are with the fantasy ones, with greater balance overall. Unfortunately this means that the early codexes are likely going to be severely outclassed by the massively unbalanced books we've had during 5th edition. With fantasy they seem to be addressing this by bumping up some of the most broken books on the todo list, which likely means some of the most broken books will be getting rewarded with updates fairly soon and leaving the older ones languishing even further, which may mean Tyrannids getting stuck with a White Dwarf update, though if all books are being toned down then they may find themselves on a more level playing field in spite of a lack of an update.

One of the things it seems to have done is made everything a bit uncertain, which sounds weird but is actually a good thing as it means there are very few things you will automatically want to take. This is good since it means that in theory you can just take what you want and make a decently viable list out of it, but given the current state of the other 40k armies it's not quite that
simple.

I doubt they will be remakeing Necrons soon. But if this is what 6th is going to look like
Necron players are going to have a great time

Rovient
04-10-2012, 12:28
the defiler is tricky to place,

It has gained 2 power fists without losing its shooting,
iWnD
5++
Fear

not sure if its worth the inccrease....but its close, gonna take a lot of firepower to put one of those down.

And daemonforge, useful re-roll to wound or pen once per game. Nice when you manage to catch a 10 man strike squad of GK out in the open and you want to guarantee every model that's hit is killed!

Haravikk
04-10-2012, 12:33
yes and unless I'm mistaken there is no way to get more attacks, just because you swap out the reaper for a powerfist doesn't give you an extra attack as you already have 2 CCW's
Don't vehicles get +1 Attack for each close combat weapon after the first, rather than just a flat +1 Attack?
To be clear, are the options for Power Fists or Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons? If the former then it seems like a mistake as they can't get additional attacks due to the Specialist Weapon rule I think, and also strike last due to Unwieldy.

orkmiester
04-10-2012, 12:35
I've only had a chance to quickly look over some of it but it's about what I expected to be honest; it seems they're going the same route with the 40k hard-backs that they are with the fantasy ones, with greater balance overall. Unfortunately this means that the early codexes are likely going to be severely outclassed by the massively unbalanced books we've had during 5th edition. With fantasy they seem to be addressing this by bumping up some of the most broken books on the todo list, which likely means some of the most broken books will be getting rewarded with updates fairly soon and leaving the older ones languishing even further, which may mean Tyrannids getting stuck with a White Dwarf update, though if all books are being toned down then they may find themselves on a more level playing field in spite of a lack of an update.

One of the things it seems to have done is made everything a bit uncertain, which sounds weird but is actually a good thing as it means there are very few things you will automatically want to take. This is good since it means that in theory you can just take what you want and make a decently viable list out of it, but given the current state of the other 40k armies it's not quite that simple.

exactly...

until other codexes are released, the chaos codex is the elephant in the room. Really we cant say "its meh" until other 6th ed books are released, and if GW decide to tackle some of the "broken" books then GK and IG* will feature in there somewhere.

:angel:

*though in my opinion all GW really need to do is nerf the cost of vendettas and nerf the vets in someway- other than that the codex is ok

daboarder
04-10-2012, 12:37
Don't vehicles get +1 Attack for each close combat weapon after the first, rather than just a flat +1 Attack?

Oh thats nice, was a little worried. in that case I think the CC defiler is still a decent choice, not as fast but can fire support on the way in still and really wont go down easy.


exactly...

until other codexes are released, the chaos codex is the elephant in the room. Really we cant say "its meh" until other 6th ed books are released, and if GW decide to tackle some of the "broken" books then GK and IG* will feature in there somewhere.

:angel:

*though in my opinion all GW really need to do is nerf the cost of vendettas and nerf the vets in someway- other than that the codex is ok

Chaso has been stuck in the "toned down" paradigm twice now and last time the idea was dropped shortly after leaving us in the lurch, with the experience of the nid codex I expect nothing but the regular GW head in the sand

Rovient
04-10-2012, 12:39
Walkers and MC ignore unwieldy rule.

Shadow Lord
04-10-2012, 12:40
Well, I just had a deja-vue feeling when I read my copy. I mean it's just like the last edition: new core rules (6th), first new codex = perfectly balanced but not in the same league as the other power codeci. But that doesn't have to be bad thing tho...we gained some nice stuff, we lost some other stuff...some is overpriced (well...most nice stuff is overpriced) and the basic stuff is about correctly priced (a lascannon for 20 points unlike 40 in the previous edition)...
Overall feel: good
OP'ness: okay

Murphey
04-10-2012, 13:04
I do want to address the Nid/chaos parallel with this codex that people have mentioned. First off, there are some that stick out. For instance, demon princes cannot gain assault grenades in any way, which is a huge problem considering they're only T5 and do not have ID protection. This definitely parallels the issues with the lack of assault grenades in the Tyranid codex.

However, I in no way think that this codex is as badly written, terribly balanced, and generally raped as the 5th ed Tyranid codex. The Tyranid codex showed an insane, almost criminal lack of knowledge about basic game mechanics such as charging into cover, not to mention an utterly flawed ability to understand basic mathematical consequences. So, yes, there are certainly some disturbing parallels, but it is no where near as bad.

In regards to the codex's power in the current context: Yes, it does seem like they may be trying to go for a more balanced approach. But I am highly skeptical of this. The 5th ed Tyranid codex certainly didn't usher in a golden age of low powered codices or anything. I'd have to have a lot more data points before I'd be willing to state that this is a new trend GW is going to push. Honestly, if this were a perfect world, GW would simply errata the costs and abilities of many of units in the Grey Knights, Necrons, and IG codices and that would bring everything much better in line. (Although if you wanted to be perfectionist about it, some of the other space marine chapters need to have some options toned, the Eldar's runes of warding need to cost around 60 points since it causes a 50% failure rate of all enemy psykers on the board, etc)

Now, 4 years ago I would have laughed my ass off at the notion that Games Workshop would actually errata point costs, abilities, or stat lines. But seeing as they have been nothing short of amazingly badass on their FAQs lately, it might just be possible. I wouldn't count on it, and if I were a betting man; I'd note some long odds on that one. But who knows, if GW actually is committed to having something close to balance in the game, something that is currently completely lacking, they might actually do that. They certainly seem to be moving super hard towards the digital age.

Polaria
04-10-2012, 13:09
A few questions:

Is it true that you need a certain type of HQ (like, for example, a Lord) to get Cult units as Troops? Or can any HQ do it if it has the correct mark?

How much options do Cult units get? Can you get heavy or special weapons for Thousand Sons or Berzerkers for example, or are they just one-trick ponies?

How much options do Cultists get? Do they get marks and/or icons or only heavy/special weapons?

daboarder
04-10-2012, 13:14
Lords only for PM, KB, NM

Sorcerers only for TS

pretty much same options they used to,

NB: Blastmaster 1 per 10
chainaxe's

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 13:15
Since it wasnt answered clearly. No cult terminators? I cant give termies MoS and then equip them with sonic weapons? Way to FAIL gw. Hopefully my Night Lords wont be as nerfed. Really debating getting the book as opposed to selling off my almost 20 year old army. This all sounds catastrophic for chaos and definately not the way it was supposed to go.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 13:16
Since it wasnt answered clearly. No cult terminators? I cant give termies MoS and then equip them with sonic weapons? Way to FAIL gw. Hopefully my Night Lords wont be as nerfed. Really debating getting the book as opposed to selling off my almost 20 year old army. This all sounds catastrophic for chaos and definately not the way it was supposed to go.

wow mate seriously this is all we have been talking about for weeks

NO CULT TERMINATORS

and yes I agree it sucks.

basically its the 4th ed codex with points and a few options adjusted, they really probably could have just released the drake and fiends as a WD update and called it a day.

Murphey
04-10-2012, 13:25
Yeah, I would give a lot for a return of the 3.5 codex, updated of course. I'm frankly confused as to why they didn't go ahead and do something along those lines, as it seems to be what most people want.

Polaria
04-10-2012, 13:26
Since it wasnt answered clearly. No cult terminators? I cant give termies MoS and then equip them with sonic weapons? Way to FAIL gw. Hopefully my Night Lords wont be as nerfed. Really debating getting the book as opposed to selling off my almost 20 year old army. This all sounds catastrophic for chaos and definately not the way it was supposed to go.

Ummm... As far as I undertand you could not give sonic weapons to termies in last edition codex either? So who ate your cake now all of a sudden?

mattschuur
04-10-2012, 13:26
regular chaos space marines, Defilers and the helldrakes are major dissapointments.

Regular chaos space marines got worse. Alot of people are talking about their base price as if it is a good thing,but it isn't. no ccw, -1 leadership and to get those back they are more base than they were before with the only benefit being against space marines, which technically only benefits you half the time. In addition we still pay the premium cost for special weapons, which is a travesty. I know the whole vacuum argument isn't the greatest, but in comparison to grey hunters with 2 plasma's and a wulfen, Chaos space marines with ccw, champion, power weapon and 2 plasma is still 30 points more expensive than the pups. And yet they are equal in shooting but worse in combat. We could take VotLW and/or marks to equal things out, but then were 40 or more points expensive. fail.

Defiler, 195 points, really? 5+ invuln is good, but not that good. IWnD is only effective if it isn't blown away. And fear only works against Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG (who can reroll it in most cases), necrons (who will rarely fail it) and Tau. So really 2 and 2/3. None of these 'benefits' warrant a 45 point increase.

The Helldrake. This seems to defeat the whole 'make it good and cheap so people buy it' concept i've seen from GW. I seriously can't see myself taking one. Especially when it's compared to the other, way cheaper flyers floating around.

Flakk missiles will work against half the flyers, but not all. S7 against AV12 is a crap and shoot, especially for the points cost.

Things I like, marks are back. Bikes got way better, raptors got cheaper and as far as I can tell oblits weren't neutered.

Now, I've only had glimpses of the book, but what I'd like to know is what about the cult troops? Did they get better? Cheaper? What about possessed? Sorcerers? The costs of vehicles?

matt Schuur

Raibaru
04-10-2012, 13:31
This is the problem with multiple designers working independantly on a codex. Some people make balanced rules and others try to one up the competition. Kelly is clearly the type who makes balanced rules (but he must play Space Wolves I guess?).

The defiler is overcosted even with the improvements. It's blatantly obvious they screwed it over to sell the new kits.
Thousand Sons are still god awful. They are horrendously over priced for what they get, I'm sorry. And then to find out SoulBlaze isn't built into them?
Tzeentch in general is awful still as the marks/icons are very over priced given cover etc.
Only 2 demon weapons? Come on.
Land Raiders ignored? Again?
Would it really have killed them to give cult terminator options?

Now all that said, there are some highlights.

Ahriman honestly looks amazing. A shame he can't use the same power 3 times in a row, but he's certainly fairly priced now.
Sorcerers are also very good and reasonably priced. With options they can now be 2+/3++, mastery 3 and be about 200pts? That's amazing.
Bikers are good if you wanted to use them.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 13:31
@daboarder

You do know that getting the extra attacks form the 2 extra close combat weapons now cost points

It also already had two powerfist but they where called dreadnought close combat weapons

What it really gained was

5++
fear
it will not die
and deamon engine

Those are all nice.

But I seriously doubt they are worth the point increase.
Not to mention that whit
oblitorators, havocs and the other engines . Heavy support is crowded ass all hell already.

Its completely worth it on a model with 4 hull points.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 13:33
The defiler is overcosted even with the improvements. It's blatantly obvious they screwed it over to sell the new kits.


I'm so tired of this ******** statement. I guess they nerfed bikes and spawn to sell the heldrake and talons/raptors. :rolleyes: Give me a *******' break.

Polaria
04-10-2012, 13:41
This is the problem with multiple designers working independantly on a codex. Some people make balanced rules and others try to one up the competition. Kelly is clearly the type who makes balanced rules (but he must play Space Wolves I guess?).

People should really jump off the Ward-is-bad bandwagon by now. The sad fact is that Kelly writes far worse rules than Ward does. My proof? If we take all the Ward codices (SM, BA, GK and Necrons) on the same field, each of them is roughly balanced against others. Throw in the Kelly codices and SW stand out as clearly superior to most (if not even all) Ward codices and a whole nine yards ahead of other Kelly codices... So basically Kelly doesn't know balance even if it hit him in the head.

Narf
04-10-2012, 13:45
Having not read the codex, i think the defiler is about worth the points.

Remember it has 4 hull points, vehicle FnP which repairs damage results, and invulnerable save, move and fire ordnance.

Yes a lucky pen can destroy it, however glances will need ot take it out in one go, as otherwise it will just pick itself back up and carry on going, hell even if the battle cannon is destroyed, it can regorw it!

all for an extra 40ish points! thats great on paper, no idea how it will work in reality, but i like it

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 13:45
My view is that Games Workshop really need to start looking at balance across the board. It is pointless for them to close the barn doors AFTER the horses have gotten out. That is what has happened here. They released, right prior to 6th Edition, multiple power creep books with HUGE issues for the META. Then, when they have the chance to fix the problem with the first 6th Edition book, they scale it in a manner that does nothing whatsoever. :) They really are asleep at the wheel over there.

Is the book terrible? No. It has lots of FAIL. It has some good. All in all CSM are no better or worse off than before. Oddly enough, it is my personal opinion that you will see exactly the same kind of build at competitive games (assuming all CSM and not allies) which means lots of Obliterators and shooting. There will be different builds if/when allies see a lot of the light of day but so far that really isn't catching fire. The clunky rules (and slower speeds) of 6th seem to be decreasing the average game size and thus taking away much of the benefit of allies in the first place. My thoughts are:

1. Shooting options increased.
2. Certain overcrowded slots just got more crowded.
3. Close combat options interesting but irrelevant since we have no reliable delivery system.

Many of the things that "look" great are simply paper tigers because actual use on the table is curtailed by the realities of 6th Edition. The book isn't awful. It isn't good. It is largely pathetic rehash of information that could have easily been done in a White Dwarf update treatment (there really isn't enough new material to require a book) rather than charge us $50.00 for most of what we already had.

zippy_tang
04-10-2012, 13:47
My first impressions after having a flick through at the store today seems quite good to be honest. I am holding judgment on how bad the tzeentch powers list is until I have played a few games with it, however as a thousand sons player I was quite enjoying the rulebook powers on my aspiring sorcerers and this change alone has soured my overall opinion of the book since the rumors circulated, but i digress.

The first thing I realised was while I was busy wishing the cult troops came down in cost pretty much everything else I usually field did, thus freeing up points in my lists regardless. this makes me a happy tzeentchling! The change of stats on the sorcerer plus cost reduction was something I predicted back when the SM dex released the new libby stat line, once again making more room in my lists with pretty much the same effect.

Havocs have generally become cheaper meaning my small 4x heavy bolter squad has become that little bit more field-able.

POINT REDUCTION ON PREDATOR ANNIHILATOR!!!....nuff said.

unfortunately I will be unable to really give an overall opinion of the book since its still sitting in a warehouse in GW (serves me right for pre-ordering thinking I would get it before the indy stores). I will say however that the new book at first glance has made an improvement in just about every area except for cult legion representation....go figure.

So its time to grab a neat glass of Bushmills and theory craft/ math hammer my new list ideas...just as planned :shifty:

Raibaru
04-10-2012, 13:50
I'm so tired of this ******** statement. I guess they nerfed bikes and spawn to sell the heldrake and talons/raptors. :rolleyes: Give me a *******' break.

The defiler is bad. It was bad before at its cost point. It's now even more with only slight improvements. It's bad.

Bikers and Spawn weren't nerfed... they were buffed. By alot. So perhaps give us a break?

mattschuur
04-10-2012, 13:51
Daedalus81- No, they didn't have to nerf the raptors, bikes and spawns because they were already nerfed the previous edition. Spawn were useless, bikes and raptors were overcosted. They expect the Helldrakes to sell because they are 1.) new and 2.) a flyer. The only thing that will compete with the helldrake is another flyer. Show me how a spawn or raptor squad can only be hit on 6's, skyfire and move 36" and smack a unit in the face without being hit, and I'd agree with you.

Defilers on the other hand were the 2nd best choice in Heavy last book, behind oblits. Now oblits will still run wild, havocs might see some increased use, but not necessarily, so the only thing left the fiends can really compete with is the defiler and oblits. A really nasty Heavy support is not 2 defilers and a havoc squad, it's 2 squads of oblits and a forgefiend with the big guns. They will due more damage than any other combination. So yes, Defilers being overcosted is a way to get the Fiends bought.

darn, Raibaru beat me to it

daboarder
04-10-2012, 13:51
My view is that Games Workshop really need to start looking at balance across the board. It is pointless for them to close the barn doors AFTER the horses have gotten out. That is what has happened here. They released, right prior to 6th Edition, multiple power creep books with HUGE issues for the META. Then, when they have the chance to fix the problem with the first 6th Edition book, they scale it in a manner that does nothing whatsoever. :) They really are asleep at the wheel over there.


the tragedy is that baring a few glaring frak ups (GK's and Nids) the 5th ed codexes WERE reasonably balanced with each other...

Raibaru
04-10-2012, 13:55
People should really jump off the Ward-is-bad bandwagon by now. The sad fact is that Kelly writes far worse rules than Ward does. My proof? If we take all the Ward codices (SM, BA, GK and Necrons) on the same field, each of them is roughly balanced against others. Throw in the Kelly codices and SW stand out as clearly superior to most (if not even all) Ward codices and a whole nine yards ahead of other Kelly codices... So basically Kelly doesn't know balance even if it hit him in the head.

The wolf codex is overpowered because of a couple things in it. Kelley also failed pretty badly with the Dark Eldar, not because it can't compete with Wards books perse, but because half the units in the book are awful. Ward honestly makes fairly good rules like you said, so long as you're against other Ward books. Ward is hated simply because of his fluff additions imo. Dark Eldar is a fine book too and it shows Kelley's subtle touch. It just fails miserably if you were expecting to play Dark Eldar differently then you did a decade before because most of what didn't work before still doesn't and most of what was added also doesn't work.

Omegon
04-10-2012, 13:56
The defiler is overcosted even with the improvements. It's blatantly obvious they screwed it over to sell the new kits.

You're wrong, on all points. The Defiler is a profitable kit, it has 4 hull points an auto 5+ save, and IWND, it's costed correctly. By comparrison, anything that gets close to an IG Russ screws it, a Defiler will tear most things a new one.



Thousand Sons are still god awful. They are horrendously over priced for what they get, I'm sorry. And then to find out SoulBlaze isn't built into them?
Tzeentch in general is awful still as the marks/icons are very over priced given cover etc.

Wrong again. TS are not a swiss army knife, they do one thing and they do it well; killing MEQ. Tzeentch's Psychic Powers are the weakest of the 3 but not unusable.
Tzeentch lords in Terminator armour, or Tzentch Apostles, or hell, anything on a Disk? A Jetbike with +1 attacks with a unit of Bikers?



Only 2 demon weapons? Come on.
You've got no argument from me, there should be 4 mark Specific Wargear, the 3 they have (Tzeentch don't get a daemon weapon they get scrolls, I'm fine with this) are good, but where are Nurgle and Slaanesh specific Champion gear?

Land Raiders ignored? Again?
I don't understand, what do you mean? LR have stayed the same for years. Did you want a new one?


Would it really have killed them to give cult terminator options?
Yes. Ward bludgeoned them to death with his cheese wheel he uses for writing for daring inpune his codixes

Valorel
04-10-2012, 14:07
I really can't understand how one can think this codex is on par with the old one... Everyone has his opinion, but wow, how can one not see the upgrade in almost all regards?

This codex is not perfect but it's really good. I, for one, didn't want a new necron or GK, and I can understand people wanting this kind of level are disapointed, but I hate having an auto-win army, I hate being ashamed to win cause my army was pure cheesiness of cheese with extra cheese-flavour. i have fun and enjoy a battle in which I strugle to win, and that I win cause my list was solid and my tactic was better than my opponent.

For people wanting to roll over their opponent and who don't care about fun, GK and necrons are here! I'm pleased with the codex, even though I would have liked some units to be better or more playable, but i know my army will be far more competitive than with the crappy 4th codex.

All this is IMHO of course.

Latro_
04-10-2012, 14:09
Now the dust has settled and i'v read it all my opinion is its a bit like a wall with a painting of a boat on it.
The wall has been repainted the same colour and the picture of the boat has been replaced by a picture of a car...

Fresher and different but still the same.

There are very few risks taken with the book and at least now some of the crapper units move up the food chain a bit. Its no longer a no-brainer to just take princes, plague marines and obiltertors as standard, even though those units got better in their own ways.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 14:13
I didnt want GK or BA. I wanted chaos with cult termies, legion rules, troops that reflect they are actually 10000 years old and still fighting with vet skills. What we get is marine recruits you have to spend out the wazoo just to get them on par with basic marines from other chapters and dinosaurs with guns.

trigger
04-10-2012, 14:16
How's abbadon ? Is he the super bad ass we all hoped he would be ?

Latro_
04-10-2012, 14:19
How's abbadon ? Is he the super bad ass we all hoped he would be ?

About the same really, can make chosen troops and hes good in hth he also makes everyone within 12" have preferred enemy space marines.

Somwhat urks me that the unlocks are 'become' not the option to. So if you took abaddon and two units of chosen you cant use em as elites and take 6 units of cultists for example.

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 14:19
How's abbadon ? Is he the super bad ass we all hoped he would be ?

He is pretty much the same.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 14:21
Are there any new characters or the same old guys we have had for years?

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 14:21
The defiler is bad. It was bad before at its cost point. It's now even more with only slight improvements. It's bad.

Bikers and Spawn weren't nerfed... they were buffed. By alot. So perhaps give us a break?

I think you missed the sarcasm. Hence the rolleyes.

I wasn't arguing whether or not the Defiler was bad. I was arguing that your statement that they made the Defiler bad to sell other models was ********, because
1) They have new models in fast attack for raptors/talons and heldrake
2) They still vastly cut costs and improved bikes and spawn which have no new models.

Now based on your logic the defiler is bad at 20 points more than the forgefiend, because they really wanted to sell the forgefiend when in reality the defiler has an extra HP and that is a pretty damn good deal.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 14:23
"Hey, it's balanced as long as you ignore Ward's later codexes" is basically the least helpful comment ever, because people in tournaments will be seeing those armies across the table in large numbers. You cannot "fix" an overpowered codex by making the others average, especially when the balance is so blatantly off as it currently is.

There are some viable builds in Codex:CSM, but it's stupidly clear that it's not going to be dethroning GKs or Newcrons anytime soon. Some specific complaints:
1. Points costs are WAY off in some critical spots. Many CSMT and Chosen melee upgrades are absurdly pricey, Heldrakes are meh, and DPs are generally high.
2. Complete lack of deployment options. No units have infiltration (sans CL/Sorc w/ SoS), there are no teleport homers (sans Dimensional Key, which is almost useless), there's no reserves control, and no improved transports.
3. The rules and points costs seem balanced towards rhino rushing... which is dead in 6E due to rules changes. It's almost like PK didn't understand this.
4. Bike army? Terminator army? Legion army? Enhanced Warriors army? Well, you can have a cultist army. *sigh* It would have been so easy to include options for these, and they were just left out.
5. Cultists' sole charm is that they're cheap. As an army entry, they're basically half-assed and under-developed. Coming from the guy who wrote the IG codex, this is mind-blowing, and I theorize that these rules directly reflect what's coming with the DV set for trademark reasons (see: GW vs CHS).
6. No special synergy with allied CDs or IG.

Honestly, the whole codex feels... rushed. Like they had some new models, and marketing just wanted some rules to sell them with. You'd figure the marketing department might insist on balanced rules for balanced sales, but maybe they're not that sophisticated yet. I am, however, worried about my "trademark protections" theory, because that seems to have harmed available options and flexibility in a huge way here.

Zen21
04-10-2012, 14:29
Can cultists be armed with a mix of CCW/pistol and autoguns, or is it a case of them all having to change?

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 14:33
Can cultists be armed with a mix of CCW/pistol and autoguns, or is it a case of them all having to change?

It says "any model may".

Zen21
04-10-2012, 14:37
It says "any model may".

Sweet, thanks!

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 14:42
The heldrake in particular seems about 30 points over what it should be, mainly due to it's lackluster offense, especially when you look at vendetta gunships and the like.


I don't think it has lackluster offense at all. The vendetta may be undercosted, but the Heldrake will average 2.5 auto-hits from vector strikes PLUS 2 hits from the autocannon or whatever it can get under the flamer (obviously at different targets) - with a max of 8+ hits. The vendetta averages 2.25 hits with its lascannons with a max of 3 hits.

Murphey
04-10-2012, 14:43
the tragedy is that baring a few glaring frak ups (GK's and Nids) the 5th ed codexes WERE reasonably balanced with each other...

I would disagree, honestly. Although the power disparity was less severe between some of them than with, say, the Nids and the Grey Knights, you did run into other armies that were simply considerably better than others, as well internal balancing that were beyond schizophrenic.

Also, I'm not sure the value of all codices made in edition X being balanced against each other (I disagree with your statement that this was true, but even assuming). As long as there are other, still valid codices out there, the writers should really work to try and keep things in line. Anything less is simply terrible game design and highly unfair to the players.

sayles78
04-10-2012, 14:50
I notice someone said no nurgle specific daemon weapon. What does typhus' manreaper do in new edition? It used to be a cross of a nurgle daemon weapon and force weapon.

Also, what is typhus like in general? Many changes,or same as?

Erwos
04-10-2012, 14:55
Typhus is a pretty tough customer, but he costs so much that I don't think he's viable outside of Plague Zombies builds. Manreaper is still a daemon weapon.

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 14:56
I think you missed the sarcasm. Hence the rolleyes.

I wasn't arguing whether or not the Defiler was bad. I was arguing that your statement that they made the Defiler bad to sell other models was ********, because
1) They have new models in fast attack for raptors/talons and heldrake
2) They still vastly cut costs and improved bikes and spawn which have no new models.

Now based on your logic the defiler is bad at 20 points more than the forgefiend, because they really wanted to sell the forgefiend when in reality the defiler has an extra HP and that is a pretty damn good deal.

The defiler is a horrible deal.

It wasn't a very good deal at its old price. It didn't get any better at shooting, and all those defensive bonuses aren't very enticing for a model that has a 72" range gun on it. You can't justify that little damage output for that huge of a cost, and things that can kill it in one shot are still going to do so quite easily.

In fact combined with losing lash all the chaos template weapons took a big nerf. I'll probably just field a bunch of cheap missile launching havocs now.

Johnmclane
04-10-2012, 14:59
Slowest army in the game ( no infiltrate, droppods, fast vehicles, skimmers etc). Got the dragonflyer but that one seems almost useless (but need to be tested to see).

I think most ppl will add a mark of nurgle on their csm which put them up one point from before (T5, but lose one attack due to no extra CCW). Overall the dex looks really nice, but it isn't inspiring. Already started building my revamped chaos force, but feel a bit : meeeh ... .

Secretly I think I'm waiting for my new shiny eldar codex.

Murphey
04-10-2012, 15:10
I don't think it has lackluster offense at all. The vendetta may be undercosted, but the Heldrake will average 2.5 auto-hits from vector strikes PLUS 2 hits from the autocannon or whatever it can get under the flamer (obviously at different targets) - with a max of 8+ hits. The vendetta averages 2.25 hits with its lascannons with a max of 3 hits.

1st off, you cant honestly use vector stike against an enemy flyer. To do so will leave your rear armor completely exposed and you will die. Secondly, the autocannon only has a 45 degree arc of fire, so you're very limited on what you can shoot if you're also going to try and vector strike things.

Here's some math on the exchange between the two, assuming front or side armor:
Drake averages 2 hits on a vendetta. 50% that it will get a penetrating or glancing hit. So average damage in Hull Points to a vendetta from the helldrake is 1 per shooting phase. The chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33%, with a 16.6% chance of an explodes result. So total average explode results vs a vendetta per shooting phase is .1111 Meaning, on average, it will take 9 shooting rounds to get an explode result. Obviously, the hull points is the best chance, but even then, it's not exactly a high rate.

Conversely, here are the Vendettas numbers in the exchange:
An average of 2.25 hits against the drake. 44.44% chance of a hull point removed per shot (factoring in invuln save). Average hull points taken off the drake per shooting phase is 1. Chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33.33%, with a 33.33% chance of an explodes result. Total average explode results vs drake per shooting phase is .25 That's over 2 times higher.

Now, consider that the vendettas are 45 points or so cheaper, has a better cadre of weapons with longer ranges/better ap/better to-hit, and you realize that it's a pretty bad deal, and not a solid anti-flyer unit in the least. If you take any unit who's main purpose is to fight a certain type of unit, but there's another unit out there that does it better, has more versitility, and does it all for 25% cheaper, then I don't know what to call that other than 'lackluster'.

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 15:21
Now, consider that the vendettas are 45 points or so cheaper, has a better cadre of weapons with longer ranges/better ap/better to-hit, and you realize that it's a pretty bad deal, and not a solid anti-flyer unit in the least. If you take any unit who's main purpose is to fight a certain type of unit, but there's another unit out there that does it better, has more versitility, and does it all for 25% cheaper, then I don't know what to call that other than 'lackluster'.

I see the dragon as a nice anti-infantry vehicle more so than an anti-flyer. Chaos has plenty of alternative anti-flyer options. Flakk missiles and flying allied demon princes will most likely be my choice.

I can see the dragon coming in, zooming someplace nice, then going into hover mode to roast something tasty. Maybe zoom again for a turn to get into position, then roast something else. If it can neutralize an expensive enemy unit it makes back its points. If it can do so twice it might win you the game.

Combined with some other nasty chaos tricks like cover ignoring sonic weapons and chosen or plague marines doing drive bys with squads full of special weapons I think chaos will fare pretty well. Especially with new tactically viable fast units like bikers and jet bike HQ's that should synergize well with a unit of allied screamers.

duffybear1988
04-10-2012, 15:24
So basically CSM are the Nids of 6th edition, and they chucked in a price hike for dessert!

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 15:28
So basically CSM are the Nids of 6th edition, and they chucked in a price hike for dessert!

No, chaos has assault grenades and access to eternal warriors.

MvS
04-10-2012, 15:30
Couple of questions that have confused answers in the rumours section (I don't have the new Codex yet to check myself):

1. Is there a Land Raider wargear option called Sonic Blaster? If not, what is this wargear upgrade really called? But if so, do Noise Marines still get Sonic Blasters and are they the same rules as the Land Raider upgrade...?

2. Do Thousand Sons still get AP3 Inferno Bolts?

Thanks all! :)

The_Klobb_Maniac
04-10-2012, 15:32
Don't kid yourselves, being a more balanced approach (I.E. not saying WTF at every unit) is good, but the book was still buffed heavily.
-No paying for psychic powers
-Massive cost reduction on HQ
-Dreads are more reliable/usable
-CSM have options to be cheap, choppy, or the way they were but with a free (or cheaper) champ (depending)
-Havocs and Heavies are usable/good. Havocs being the most efficient autocannon out there now
-Preds got a 15 point reduction for the AC/LC variant, cheapest in the game for that (and were already quite good.)
-Fast attack isn't balls. Cheapest bikes in the game (sort of.) Bikes have come a long way since my ork codex :(
-All cult troops received minor buffs
-Marks are in and cost effective (depending on the unit); icons are just a bonus now

It's seriously a much better book; people jsut noticed that CSM aren't SW 2.0 in the troops section and figured that it means they suck.

EDIT: CSM aren't the nids of 6th, they're the Innistrad of 40k. Decent but stopped upping the ante by gobs and gobs each time.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 15:37
The defiler is a horrible deal.

It wasn't a very good deal at its old price. It didn't get any better at shooting, and all those defensive bonuses aren't very enticing for a model that has a 72" range gun on it. You can't justify that little damage output for that huge of a cost, and things that can kill it in one shot are still going to do so quite easily.

In fact combined with losing lash all the chaos template weapons took a big nerf. I'll probably just field a bunch of cheap missile launching havocs now.

Ok, so please go back and reconcile that with your previous statement that the Defiler got nerfed so that they could sell the new models, because its 20 points more with the same abilities, different weapons, but an extra hullpoint.

And everyone else does just fine with templates without needing lash. I'm sure we'll get by.

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 15:43
Ok, so please go back and reconcile that with your previous statement that the Defiler got nerfed so that they could sell the new models, because its 20 points more with the same abilities, different weapons, but an extra hullpoint.

And everyone else does just fine with templates without needing lash. I'm sure we'll get by.

I believe it is a bit more than 20 points more, and it has always had 4 hull points.

Shamana
04-10-2012, 15:45
I'm wondering why the heck are obliterrators not fearless. I mean, seriously, CSM seem to have a Ld issue this codex. If at least they got double slots like wolves, the cheap lords could fix that - but no such luck.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 15:45
1st off, you cant honestly use vector stike against an enemy flyer. To do so will leave your rear armor completely exposed and you will die. Secondly, the autocannon only has a 45 degree arc of fire, so you're very limited on what you can shoot if you're also going to try and vector strike things.

Here's some math on the exchange between the two, assuming front or side armor:
Drake averages 2 hits on a vendetta. 50% that it will get a penetrating or glancing hit. So average damage in Hull Points to a vendetta from the helldrake is 1 per shooting phase. The chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33%, with a 16.6% chance of an explodes result. So total average explode results vs a vendetta per shooting phase is .1111 Meaning, on average, it will take 9 shooting rounds to get an explode result. Obviously, the hull points is the best chance, but even then, it's not exactly a high rate.

Conversely, here are the Vendettas numbers in the exchange:
An average of 2.25 hits against the drake. 44.44% chance of a hull point removed per shot (factoring in invuln save). Average hull points taken off the drake per shooting phase is 1. Chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33.33%, with a 33.33% chance of an explodes result. Total average explode results vs drake per shooting phase is .25 That's over 2 times higher.

Now, consider that the vendettas are 45 points or so cheaper, has a better cadre of weapons with longer ranges/better ap/better to-hit, and you realize that it's a pretty bad deal, and not a solid anti-flyer unit in the least. If you take any unit who's main purpose is to fight a certain type of unit, but there's another unit out there that does it better, has more versitility, and does it all for 25% cheaper, then I don't know what to call that other than 'lackluster'.

That all really depends on positioning - its not as easy as you think to get rear armor unless you have vector dancer. One does not need to come in perpendicular to get a vector strike.

I'm not worried about catching explode results against the vendetta since most flyers will be AV11. And its 2.5 hits on average, .83 hull points, .55 after jink. Then I can skyfire at another if possible (which it is) for 2 hits, 1 hull point, .66 after jink. And that is another thing - making the vendetta jink affects its shooting next round. The heldrake doesn't need to jink.

The vendetta does 2.25 hits, 1.5 hull points, of which 1.13 can be pens, .75 after daemon save with a 33% chance comes to about 25% (like you said). Otherwise it will average 1 HP in damage, which the heldrake does 1.11 cumulatively if targets are available.

And of course if it doesn't blow up then you have 33% to restore that hull point, but honestly i'm going to use it to fry out missile launcher squads.

CrownAxe
04-10-2012, 15:46
I believe it is a bit more than 20 points more, and it has always had 4 hull points.

Regardless, the adding of the Daemon and It Will Not Die rule makes up for the price hike.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 15:49
So did they at least bring back the giving of benefits to cult units with the favored numbers? Thats been in the game fluffwise since the old days, it would be silly not to hae included that.

CrownAxe
04-10-2012, 15:51
So did they at least bring back the giving of benefits to cult units with the favored numbers? Thats been in the game fluffwise since the old days, it would be silly not to hae included that.

Bring it back? They made it worse. Noise Marines need 10 to get the blastmaster.

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 15:51
So did they at least bring back the giving of benefits to cult units with the favored numbers? Thats been in the game fluffwise since the old days, it would be silly not to hae included that.

No, even worse, they force you to take champions in every unit whether you want them or not, and you are paying extra for them still.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 15:55
Well I will at least be selling all my parts for my Emperor's Children. Verdict is still out for my Night Lords. Highly disappointed at this point.

Fear Ghoul
04-10-2012, 16:02
But it has Nid syndrome!

You hear that noise? That's the sound of the world's collective Tyranid players laughing at the suggestion that the Chaos Space Marines codex is as bad as theirs.


for example, the spawn or daemon boon is basically jsut going to kill your model more often than not as if it can't be placed "within 3"" it is removed. and even if it does get placed it is then "unengaged".

Why not just place the model at the back of the combat?


However, if you've taken his already high standard pts cost, add on an artifact like the Black Mace, and then a mark, then a gift to roll for at the start of the game, we're talking near 200 pts for a 2W character.

Well then maybe it's not a good idea to load up your Dark Apostles with so many upgrades?


i mean a defilers is 195 points? come on that is just insanely over priced for what is basicly a dreadnought whit a battle cannon.
Sure it got a lot better than it was but a 30% price increase.

A dreadnought with a battle cannon, additional attacks, an additional hull point, a 5+ invulnerable save, fear, regeneration...


Ah marines got 2 points cheaper but lost their combat weapon ah and you can get that back for 2 points. Oh nice.

Ok now you can play them as normal marines for less if you want. But if you wanted to do that why not just use the normal marine codex?

If you're going to complain that having an additional hand weapon is the only reason to use the Chaos Space Marines codex then that's the least of our worries. Tactical, Assault, and Devestator squads appear in multiple codexes nearly exactly the same, and yet it doesn't stop people playing those armies. I wonder how all those Blood Angels and Dark Angels players can live with themselves, knowing they should just play vanilla marines.


It also pisses me off as a alpha legion player that there is no way to get infiltrate on any unit.
We went form all infiltrate to no infiltrate in 2 versions of the book. Nice

Alpha Legion don't have a monopoly on infiltrate. Any argument made that it should be reflected in their rules wouldn't equally apply to any other veteran unit from any other codex. If you want to believe the background, then most Alpha Legion players should just use someone else's codex anyway.


Also I hate how the hid all the old runes in the new special rules.
Sure oblitorators are still 2+/5++ but only if you realise that they are deamons and deamons get a 5++ save.
Could they not at least print it in the unit entry?

So now we're criticizing GW for standardizing their rules and not overcomplicating their codexes with endless unit-specific rule printings?


The stupid thing is if they'd kept to the 5th ed level (baring the stupid GK codex) they would be ballanced, as they are pretty much all completely over the top (baring Nids)

You are joking right? Most of the 5th edition codexes were horribly unbalanced both internally and externally. The less like them Chaos Space Marines turns out to be the better off we'll all be.


basically its the 4th ed codex with points and a few options adjusted, they really probably could have just released the drake and fiends as a WD update and called it a day.

And the raptors/warp talons, warpsmith, dark apostle, points adjustments, rules additions, etc...


Yeah, I would give a lot for a return of the 3.5 codex, updated of course. I'm frankly confused as to why they didn't go ahead and do something along those lines, as it seems to be what most people want.

Just because it's what some people want, doesn't mean it's a good idea. The old Legion rules were highly proscriptive, unbalanced, and resulted in a skewed version of the background that persists to this day. For instance, the old rules gave Alpha Legion infiltrate, however the whole point of Alpha Legion was that they didn't prescribe to a specific method of warfare, infiltrate included. It doesn't stop people continually insisting that infiltrate is the Alpha Legion "thing" now does it? This is probably why GW has moved away from this model of codex.


I know the whole vacuum argument isn't the greatest, but in comparison to grey hunters with 2 plasma's and a wulfen, Chaos space marines with ccw, champion, power weapon and 2 plasma is still 30 points more expensive than the pups. And yet they are equal in shooting but worse in combat. We could take VotLW and/or marks to equal things out, but then were 40 or more points expensive. fail.

Comparing Chaos Space Marines to the undercosted Grey Hunters isn't going to get you anywhere.


Kelley also failed pretty badly with the Dark Eldar, not because it can't compete with Wards books perse, but because half the units in the book are awful. Ward honestly makes fairly good rules like you said, so long as you're against other Ward books. Ward is hated simply because of his fluff additions imo. Dark Eldar is a fine book too and it shows Kelley's subtle touch. It just fails miserably if you were expecting to play Dark Eldar differently then you did a decade before because most of what didn't work before still doesn't and most of what was added also doesn't work.

Now I HAVE see everything.


4. Bike army? Terminator army? Legion army? Enhanced Warriors army? Well, you can have a cultist army. *sigh* It would have been so easy to include options for these, and they were just left out.

If you mean having these options in troops, then you're asking for far more flexibility and choices than any other army in the game. You can already move five of your Elite units to Troops for Gods's sake.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:03
Regardless, the adding of the Daemon and It Will Not Die rule makes up for the price hike.

No it doesn't
When it comes to point cost Certainly for expensive things only one thing matters.
KILLING POWER
since it only got a bit better at that (due to the once per game re-roll) it not worth the 30% point increase

Also it is mainly good vs infantry whitch is of no use

Since chaos now lacks anny reasonable options to deal whit early game shooting. (since we have no droppods or infiltrate)
I would think that assault armies are going the way of the dinosaur. (unless of course ppl start the cheap ass bike love)
That beeing the case. We are going to see a lot of marines spam. And marines come whit anti infantry bolters. So
what do you want in those Heavy support slots. Right anti tank so hello forgefiends and oblitorators.Cya defiler.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 16:04
Well I will at least be selling all my parts for my Emperor's Children. Verdict is still out for my Night Lords. Highly disappointed at this point.

You're going to toss EC simply because you can't spam blastmasters? Really?

Its 234 for a squad of 10 with 8 sonic blasters and 1 blastmaster. Last edition that ran 295 points.

Raibaru
04-10-2012, 16:05
Ok, so please go back and reconcile that with your previous statement that the Defiler got nerfed so that they could sell the new models, because its 20 points more with the same abilities, different weapons, but an extra hullpoint.

And everyone else does just fine with templates without needing lash. I'm sure we'll get by.

2 different people. And as I said, the defiler was too expensive in the old edition. These improvements at the same price could have been acceptable. If you don't agree that they did it strictly to sell models, so be it. I'm convinced. Us arguing over it won't change either of our opinions.

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 16:12
Yes, they scrapped fluff, denied marked terminators, this is not a chaos codex. There should be far more customizing and versatality than any other army in the game except maybe IG. This should allow more army types than any other codex. They have had 10000 years to go off in different directions. Every army type, drop pod, troop type etc should have been on the table. GW failed.

Murphey
04-10-2012, 16:12
You hear that noise? That's the sound of the world's collective Tyranid players laughing at the suggestion that the Chaos Space Marines codex is as bad as theirs.

Yeah, as a guy who started the game with Nids, and has probably several thousand dollars of them, I can't even pretend that this codex is as bad as the current Tyranid one. Don't get me wrong, there are the parallels I mentioned earlier, but so far I wouldn't say it's anywhere near as bad. Ironically, this codex is probably the strongest out of all the armies I play, by far. My current primary is Tau (which, let's be honest, hasn't won a major tournament in forever), and my retired, "waiting for a new codex" army the Tyranids. Compared to those two, this book is a powerhouse :P

Now if you'll excuse me, I may have to go cry.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 16:16
If you don't agree that they did it strictly to sell models, so be it. I'm convinced. Us arguing over it won't change either of our opinions.


Convinced on a faulty premise.

Valorel
04-10-2012, 16:17
No it doesn't
When it comes to point cost Certainly for expensive things only one thing matters.
KILLING POWER
since it only got a bit better at that (due to the once per game re-roll) it not worth the 30% point increase.

Oh... You're just forgetting one thing: the longer something is on the field, the more damage it deals. Defiler got his durability upped, and by a large amount (getting 25% covered for the cover save was a pain sometimes)
Killing power is not only per turn, but per game.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
04-10-2012, 16:20
Tzeentch's Psychic Powers are the weakest of the 3
Makes perfect sense fluffwise… oh, wait !

Scammel
04-10-2012, 16:23
denied marked terminators

Whuh? Check your facts.


. There should be far more customizing and versatality than any other army in the game except maybe IG. This should allow more army types than any other codex. They have had 10000 years to go off in different directions. Every army type, drop pod, troop type etc should have been on the table. GW failed.

Yeah, not going to happen. If you can't see why these expectations are so hilariously misguided then there's not much point showing you why.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:23
@ fear ghoul

I like how you resoned to every one in the tread but not mention thier names. That was a easy read to find out you where responding to me and others.

Any way you said that you "wonder" how ppl get by whit thier marine codex if they are al so alike. And that I should thus not complain about it being like marines.

That's the point a bit
This books feels like marines whit crappy build in imperial gaurd allies and gun dinosaurs.

Sure you have cult troops and these are nice but the fact that you cant even make a lord whit a deamon weapon for each god is (*&*(&*&^^& **((^&*&*^% (&*(^&%^^) _<-- put bad words here. FAIL.

ALso I know inflatrate is not a Alpha legion thing per see.
But you are probably right I should use a other codex . since alpha legion should be about attacking from as many directions as possible. This book has just one .FROM THE (more bad words) FRONT. There is no infiltrate, only a single melee charcter that can outflank if you buy a steed for him and less then desirable deep strike options.


Truely khorne takes skulls from all sides.
Cause in they thousands of years since they old legions fell to himm
They haven't come up whit a better option to get to the enemy then walking there.

I mean landraides are still really expensive whit a gun that does not match the role.
Rhinos are useless for combat troops.
There are no droppods and no flying transports.

All of those every other army in the game has at least one off. Except maby eldar. But hell those are even more ancient then the chaos codex.

All in all the book makes me think two things

MEH
and
WOW THEY REALY WANT US TO PLAY BIKES THIS EDITION

Scammel
04-10-2012, 16:25
There is no infiltrate

You've not read the book then.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:28
You're going to toss EC simply because you can't spam blastmasters? Really?

Its 234 for a squad of 10 with 8 sonic blasters and 1 blastmaster. Last edition that ran 295 points.

Yea i would think that a EC list would do great.

For starters noise marines got better at mowing down infantry for the point cost.
And you can get a outflanking hq that's nice.
And that psyicpower list is looking good.

Hel i bet EC is on a rise.

Scribe of Khorne
04-10-2012, 16:28
I am actually quite happy with it so far. Havent had time to really dig and work with it, but at a glance its doing the job.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:31
You've not read the book then.
I have

WHERE IS IT

Erwos
04-10-2012, 16:35
There is no infiltration. Or scouts. Or teleport homers (sans the useless Dimensional key). Or reserves control. Or outflanking (short of using a Steed of Slaanesh, which is a ludicrous way to get it).

It is stupid how little the new codex has in the way of alternative deployment and reserves options. It is rather embarrassing how simplistic your options really are.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:37
There is no infiltration. Or scouts. Or teleport homers (sans the useless Dimensional key). Or reserves control. Or outflanking (short of using a Steed of Slaanesh, which is a ludicrous way to get it).

It is stupid how little the new codex has in the way of alternative deployment and reserves options. It is rather embarrassing how simplistic your options really are.

I would use stronger words for that
But yes I agree

On that fact alone I hate this codex.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 16:39
I would use stronger word for that
It's a crime that they'd let it out in this state. I'm not asking for the world here, but at least give me some options beyond "stand and shoot" and "run forward and hope for the best". It's almost like a 3E codex in that sense.

Another kick in the balls: no unique squad upgrade characters whatsoever, and no 1-3 elites characters. It's amazing how half-assed they did this thing when they had some really decent examples to follow.

The_Klobb_Maniac
04-10-2012, 16:43
....? Every squad has the upgrade character included. EVERY squad.

Depulsor
04-10-2012, 16:43
There is no infiltration. Or scouts. Or teleport homers (sans the useless Dimensional key). Or reserves control. Or outflanking (short of using a Steed of Slaanesh, which is a ludicrous way to get it).

You can get infiltrate as a warlord trait, or am I mistaken here?

But all in all I have to agree, that there is much missing in this book.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 16:46
....? Every squad has the upgrade character included. EVERY squad.
Sorry, meant "unique" upgrade character.


You can get infiltrate as a warlord trait, or am I mistaken here?
That's so unreliable as to not be worth mentioning.

Chapters Unwritten
04-10-2012, 16:47
I like the new style of the book, I'm not surprised to hear complaints about costs. Squads that are lowered, no one cares about; people just look at things out of context. Basic troops are much cheaper, and there are cheap cultist options as well, so the heavy hitting stuff costs more. As a Space Wolf, I'm used to this concept, but other people don't seem to take well to it, units in a vacuum and all that.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:48
....? Every squad has the upgrade character included. EVERY squad.

No i think hem means more like the once in the newer dexes

Like bastion or barker or something

Named unit upgrade characters. I gues there was no room in the dex or something.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 16:50
I like the new style of the book, I'm not surprised to hear complaints about costs. Squads that are lowered, no one cares about; people just look at things out of context. Basic troops are much cheaper, and there are cheap cultist options as well, so the heavy hitting stuff costs more. As a Space Wolf, I'm used to this concept, but other people don't seem to take well to it, units in a vacuum and all that.

lol after mentioning space wolfs in the same part as not complaining about the cost of our troops i know you most be trolling.

Cause you do know that almost every thing you have is
a) cheaper
b) better

Right

Col. Dash
04-10-2012, 17:15
Speaking of Space Wolves, I guess my Night Lords will continue to be using the Space Wolf rules since those rules at least reflect the individualism and veteran abilities of chaos marines. Sad that loyalist marines are more chaos than the actual ones. I havent heard anything so far that even remotely looks like my idea of Night Lords. Even when they were pushing the silly notion that Night Lords were all about raptors, I had a good idea of the force I was going to field, raptors as troops backfilled by full squads of termies. Now its back to Logan and his 25 terminator retinue and drop pods. Even having drop pods as transport options would have been a bonus that might make me buy the book. In the fluff they use flying transports like thunderhawks, storm eagles and drop pods all the time in fast assaults. WTF is wrong with the idiots at GW? Did the designer forget to take his anti-depressants and go for bland?

Major_Blackhart
04-10-2012, 17:18
Ok, so for people that have perused the warbook with some detail, I have some really nagging questions about it all and I don't want point costs, but rather just simple yes or no answers and maybe a bit of detail here or there.

Daemon weapons-
how many are there?
Are they marked or simply generic?
Can multiple HQ units take the same daemon weapon?
Is it 1 per army?
Besides Lords and DP's, who else has access to them? Apostles? Warpsmiths? Sorcs?
Are they cost effective? - not really important, I'd prolly take em regardless.
Are they varied in style?

HQ Demonic Gifts
Besides killing a champ, can the HQ's get them any other way?
Can a lord or other HQ unit roll for one at the beginning of the game?
Can a lord or other HQ unit pay for one?
How varied are they vs 3.5? Same big ones? (Eternal W, +1 S, +1 A, +1 T, +1 W, etc)

Demon Mounts and Bikes
Besides a Lord, can a sorc or apostle take one?
Can a DP take any type of daemonic mount?
Can any units outside HQs take Daemonic Mounts? Chosen?

Wargear Options
I've seen rumors for entires like Thunder Hammers and the such. This deals with those questions:
Can the Lord or Warpsmith take a Thunder Hammer or is it something limited to Dreads?
Do they differentiate in point cost for specific power weapons?
Can HQ units get access to cult specific wargear under any circumstances? Examples are blight grenades, plague knives, chain axes, sonic weapons.
Are there any significantly different wargear options for Cult sergeants vs. normal CSM sarges? (Thunder hammer type question)
Is there any god specific wargear for characters of any kind that aren't demon weapons?

Special characters
Is Huron any different? Not in point cost but in rules? What about his weapon loadout? Is it a power fist and a power axe along with a H.Flamer? Is there any reason to ever strike with his power axe anymore besides the lack of a specialist weapon option? What about the Hamadraya? Can he choose from psychic powers per turn? Roll per turn? Or is it a roll or choose at the beginning of the game and stick with it kind of deal?
Kharn - What's the deal? Is Gorechild a power axe or a special power weapon? Does it get the bonuses of a power axe and none of the drawbacks? Does he get additional attacks per successful to-wound roll like earlier rumors indicated? Does he hit on a +2 always or is it only on the charge now? Does he get any additional protections from instant death like an improved Invulnerable save or some sort of rule as the Blood God's chosen champion? Does his axe grant him any anti-armor capabilities like last codex? Does he provide any boons to Berkzerker cult marines that he joins?

The Dark Apostle
Ok, there's been a lot of jibber jabberin about this guy, and I'd like to get the skinny.
Can he take Marks?
What benefit does he give to cult units? Does he act as an Icon would or is it a specific specialist Dark Apostle only benefit?

Edit: This is really aggravating that my indents aren't showing up.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 17:34
Ok, so for people that have perused the warbook with some detail, I have some really nagging questions about it all and I don't want point costs, but rather just simple yes or no answers and maybe a bit of detail here or there.

Daemon weapons-
how many are there? (2 standard and a few for the special charters)
Are they marked or simply generic? (mostley marked)
Can multiple HQ units take the same daemon weapon? (no see below)
Is it 1 per army?(yes one artifact total even)
Besides Lords and DP's, who else has access to them? Apostles? Warpsmiths? Sorcs? (well DP dont get all the deamon weapons not the marked once anny how)
Are they cost effective? - not really important, I'd prolly take em regardless. (not realy)
Are they varied in style? (yes)

HQ Demonic Gifts
Besides killing a champ, can the HQ's get them any other way? (you can buy a roll before the game)
Can a lord or other HQ unit roll for one at the beginning of the game? (yes)
Can a lord or other HQ unit pay for one? (no only for a roll)
How varied are they vs 3.5? Same big ones? (Eternal W, +1 S, +1 A, +1 T, +1 W, etc) (they are realy varried but the table is pretty bad if you already have some of the rules)

Demon Mounts and Bikes
Besides a Lord, can a sorc or apostle take one? ( sorcer yes apostle only bike)
Can a DP take any type of daemonic mount?(sadly no)
Can any units outside HQs take Daemonic Mounts? Chosen? (also sadly no that would be to cool)

Wargear Options
I've seen rumors for entires like Thunder Hammers and the such. This deals with those questions:
Can the Lord or Warpsmith take a Thunder Hammer or is it something limited to Dreads? (only dreads)
Do they differentiate in point cost for specific power weapons? (nope)
Can HQ units get access to cult specific wargear under any circumstances? Examples are blight grenades, plague knives, chain axes, sonic weapons. (nope)
Are there any significantly different wargear options for Cult sergeants vs. normal CSM sarges? (Thunder hammer type question) (Not realy your noise marine one can't even get a sonicblaster tough some have special upgrades in their unit entry)
Is there any god specific wargear for characters of any kind that aren't demon weapons? (nope)

Special characters
Is Huron any different? Not in point cost but in rules? What about his weapon loadout? Is it a power fist and a power axe along with a H.Flamer? Is there any reason to ever strike with his power axe anymore besides the lack of a specialist weapon option? What about the Hamadraya? Can he choose from psychic powers per turn? Roll per turn? Or is it a roll or choose at the beginning of the game and stick with it kind of deal?( he's somewat differend his fist is now a sort of poweraxe whit less ap but no cubbersome. And his pet gives a random power every turn also he has a fixsted warlord trait that will make him popular I gues)
Kharn - What's the deal? Is Gorechild a power axe or a special power weapon? Does it get the bonuses of a power axe and none of the drawbacks? Does he get additional attacks per successful to-wound roll like earlier rumors indicated? Does he hit on a +2 always or is it only on the charge now? Does he get any additional protections from instant death like an improved Invulnerable save or some sort of rule as the Blood God's chosen champion? Does his axe grant him any anti-armor capabilities like last codex? Does he provide any boons to Berkzerker cult marines that he joins?(hes like he was before )

The Dark Apostle
Ok, there's been a lot of jibber jabberin about this guy, and I'd like to get the skinny.
Can he take Marks?
What benefit does he give to cult units? Does he act as an Icon would or is it a specific specialist Dark Apostle only benefit?

Edit: This is really aggravating that my indents aren't showing up.


There I hope it helps

Chem-Dog
04-10-2012, 17:34
You're going to toss EC simply because you can't spam blastmasters? Really?

Its 234 for a squad of 10 with 8 sonic blasters and 1 blastmaster. Last edition that ran 295 points.

What are Sonic Blasters like now? BM's are one per squad, fair enough, but what about the gun that goes on every other dude in the squad?
Also. Doom Sirens, they still kick ass?

Furor Teutonicus
04-10-2012, 17:34
I'm really disapointed!

In my opinion it's just the old bland codex with some silly alterations and additions, which don't bring the codex on par with the current power level.

Worst of all I'll have to rip arms off from my terminators and one DCCW from my scratch built defiler.




Lords: They are where they should be now, at the top. They weigh in cheap so if you want a dirt cheap HQ who makes a unit fearless for only over twice the cost of the Icon of Vengeance, he's your man. Equally if you want a killing machine at 210 points that have 2+/3++ save, 13 attacks on the charge and killing everything in base contact on a failed toughness test, he is equally your man.



Huh??? How is that possible? I can't find the options for that.

Buddha777
04-10-2012, 17:35
Ok, so for people that have perused the warbook with some detail, I have some really nagging questions about it all and I don't want point costs, but rather just simple yes or no answers and maybe a bit of detail here or there.

Daemon weapons-
how many are there?
Are they marked or simply generic?
Can multiple HQ units take the same daemon weapon?
Is it 1 per army?
Besides Lords and DP's, who else has access to them? Apostles? Warpsmiths? Sorcs?
Are they cost effective? - not really important, I'd prolly take em regardless.
Are they varied in style?

HQ Demonic Gifts
Besides killing a champ, can the HQ's get them any other way?
Can a lord or other HQ unit roll for one at the beginning of the game?
Can a lord or other HQ unit pay for one?
How varied are they vs 3.5? Same big ones? (Eternal W, +1 S, +1 A, +1 T, +1 W, etc)

Demon Mounts and Bikes
Besides a Lord, can a sorc or apostle take one?
Can a DP take any type of daemonic mount?
Can any units outside HQs take Daemonic Mounts? Chosen?

Wargear Options
I've seen rumors for entires like Thunder Hammers and the such. This deals with those questions:
Can the Lord or Warpsmith take a Thunder Hammer or is it something limited to Dreads?
Do they differentiate in point cost for specific power weapons?
Can HQ units get access to cult specific wargear under any circumstances? Examples are blight grenades, plague knives, chain axes, sonic weapons.
Are there any significantly different wargear options for Cult sergeants vs. normal CSM sarges? (Thunder hammer type question)
Is there any god specific wargear for characters of any kind that aren't demon weapons?

Special characters
Is Huron any different? Not in point cost but in rules? What about his weapon loadout? Is it a power fist and a power axe along with a H.Flamer? Is there any reason to ever strike with his power axe anymore besides the lack of a specialist weapon option? What about the Hamadraya? Can he choose from psychic powers per turn? Roll per turn? Or is it a roll or choose at the beginning of the game and stick with it kind of deal?
Kharn - What's the deal? Is Gorechild a power axe or a special power weapon? Does it get the bonuses of a power axe and none of the drawbacks? Does he get additional attacks per successful to-wound roll like earlier rumors indicated? Does he hit on a +2 always or is it only on the charge now? Does he get any additional protections from instant death like an improved Invulnerable save or some sort of rule as the Blood God's chosen champion? Does his axe grant him any anti-armor capabilities like last codex? Does he provide any boons to Berkzerker cult marines that he joins?

The Dark Apostle
Ok, there's been a lot of jibber jabberin about this guy, and I'd like to get the skinny.
Can he take Marks?
What benefit does he give to cult units? Does he act as an Icon would or is it a specific specialist Dark Apostle only benefit?

Edit: This is really aggravating that my indents aren't showing up.

Kinda asking for most of the codex so i'll summarize what I can.

Daemon Weapons: there are only 2 that are takeable. One is marked khorne, the other isn't marked anything. The daemon weapon entry from the last codex is gone as we know it

Gifts: For the cost of a metlagun non-named characters can buy a roll on the chart, most champs can as well.

Mounts: Won't getinto their details, should be posted, but lords and sorcs can get them. DP cannot. Apostle cannot.

Wargear: Anything like thunderhammers is referenced only to hellbrutes. No real cult specific wargear options except blight grenades.

Special characters: Huron is pretty different now, lotsa wargear, makes D3 units infilitrate; might become the standard undivided lord choice. Kharn is a beast, gorechild is NOT unwieldy and is AP2 and has armorbane. He is str.5 base, gorechild gives +1 as does his furious charge meaning he is str.7 on the charge. He has the eternal hatred warlord trait so he gives his unit hatred. Note that with hatred, his chance of rolling 1s is very, very low now.

Dark apostle: Can take marks, gives a 6" leadership bubble, has the zealot special rule, allows anyone in his unit to re-roll a boon of mutation roll. Not all that great for anything but leading cultists IMHO but time will tell how players use him.

Major_Blackhart
04-10-2012, 17:43
Only two Demon weapons? Seriously?
Dammit dammit dammit. What the hell?
Pardon my language, but really? Come on!
What happened to the rumors early on about 4 demon weapons, 1 axe, 1 mace, 1 sword, and the flamer that was prolly nurglized? All gone now?
Thanks for the other answers tho, that helps and explains a helluva lot for me.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 17:45
I forgot that Huron got Master of Deception... he's an interesting choice for builds that need reliable outflanking, maybe in concert with a CL on SoS? *ponder*

Major_Blackhart
04-10-2012, 17:46
Yaay for Kharn and Huron.
I'm certainly glad that they beefed up Huron especially quite a bit with rules.
He was an underperformer in the last codex to the say least. This time around, he sounds like a winner.

Vedar
04-10-2012, 17:56
Daemon weapons-
how many are there? - CHARACTERS HAVE ARTIFACT VERSION, BUT THERE ARE 2 OTHERS (ONE IS KHORNE ONLY)
Are they marked or simply generic? ONE IS MARKED KHORNE
Can multiple HQ units take the same daemon weapon? NO
Is it 1 per army? YES
Besides Lords and DP's, who else has access to them? Apostles? Warpsmiths? Sorcs? ALL OF THE ABOVE
Are they cost effective? - not really important, I'd prolly take em regardless. AROUND A RHINO OR MORE...
Are they varied in style?

HQ Demonic Gifts
Besides killing a champ, can the HQ's get them any other way?
Can a lord or other HQ unit roll for one at the beginning of the game? IF YOU PAY FOR A ROLL ON THE CHART.
Can a lord or other HQ unit pay for one? PAY TO ROLL
How varied are they vs 3.5? Same big ones? (Eternal W, +1 S, +1 A, +1 T, +1 W, etc). A HANDFULL OF UPGRADE BUT THE BIG STUFF IS RANDOM ON THE CHART.

Demon Mounts and Bikes
Besides a Lord, can a sorc or apostle take one? YUP AND NOPE
Can a DP take any type of daemonic mount? NOPE
Can any units outside HQs take Daemonic Mounts? Chosen? NOPE

Wargear Options
I've seen rumors for entires like Thunder Hammers and the such. This deals with those questions:
Can the Lord or Warpsmith take a Thunder Hammer or is it something limited to Dreads? ONLY HELBRUTE.
Do they differentiate in point cost for specific power weapons? NO.
Can HQ units get access to cult specific wargear under any circumstances? Examples are blight grenades, plague knives, chain axes, sonic weapons. YES-BLIGHT,CHAIN AXE NO-KNIVES SONIC.
Are there any significantly different wargear options for Cult sergeants vs. normal CSM sarges? (Thunder hammer type question) NO
Is there any god specific wargear for characters of any kind that aren't demon weapons? YES LIKE ONE, BUT DON'T GET EXCITED.

Special characters
Is Huron any different? Not in point cost but in rules? What about his weapon loadout? Is it a power fist and a power axe along with a H.Flamer? Is there any reason to ever strike with his power axe anymore besides the lack of a specialist weapon option? What about the Hamadraya? Can he choose from psychic powers per turn? Roll per turn? Or is it a roll or choose at the beginning of the game and stick with it kind of deal? HE IS PRETTY GOOD. RANDOM PSY POWER, AXE IS FOR AP2, HAS A PIMPED LIGHTNING CLAW NOW.
Kharn - What's the deal? Is Gorechild a power axe or a special power weapon? Does it get the bonuses of a power axe and none of the drawbacks? Does he get additional attacks per successful to-wound roll like earlier rumors indicated? Does he hit on a +2 always or is it only on the charge now? Does he get any additional protections from instant death like an improved Invulnerable save or some sort of rule as the Blood God's chosen champion? Does his axe grant him any anti-armor capabilities like last codex? Does he provide any boons to Berkzerker cult marines that he joins? HE IS BACK TO THE OLD 5TH KHARN PRETTY MUCH, GIVES HATERED TO UNITS.

The Dark Apostle
Ok, there's been a lot of jibber jabberin about this guy, and I'd like to get the skinny.
Can he take Marks? YES
What benefit does he give to cult units? Does he act as an Icon would or is it a specific specialist Dark Apostle only benefit? LEADERSHIP, SO SO MELEE GUY. NOT REALLY THAT GREAT. RE-ROLL ON CHARTS.

Edit: This is really aggravating that my indents aren't showing up.

Kevlar
04-10-2012, 17:57
Oh... You're just forgetting one thing: the longer something is on the field, the more damage it deals. Defiler got his durability upped, and by a large amount (getting 25% covered for the cover save was a pain sometimes)
Killing power is not only per turn, but per game.

Its survivability isn't upped significantly. Like all vehicles its survivability from 5th to 6th is a net loss. It doesn't take much for anyone to look at what it does and realize it isn't worth those points.

Oh well, one less gigantic model I have to lug around.

d6juggernaut
04-10-2012, 17:58
The 6th edition Chaos book is pretty much the book of missed opportunities. It's pretty much the 4th edition book with some extra units and rules added in, slap on an army-wide rule that's straight out of fantasy and call it a day. The overall dynamic of the book hasn't changed, and it doesn't even reflect Chaos Marines that much.

I expect the Chaos Marine book to be similar to the Grey Knights, a collection of several relevant factions with an emphasis on marines. It shouldn't be all about marines, it's more about all the factions that opposes the Imperium. The fluff describes Chaos Marines as thousand year old veterans whose powers are further enhanced by eldritch powers, and how does the game rule reflect that? +1 leadership and hatred against marines. Are you serious?

The truth is, I DON'T want the Chaos book to play like any other marine books. What the chaos book needs is a true dynamic shift in their play-style to steer away from just hordes of marines. A true elite army backed up by cheap troops with real options and viable builds, with more Dark Mechanicus units and more more cultist options, it's quite ironic that the Grey Knight book is a better CSM book than the actual CSM book. I mean, which one of these have the stats of a true veteran enhanced by warp power, a paladin, or a stock Chaos Terminator?

Phil Kelly had a chance to do something truly interesting with this book, this is one of the few books where it's plausible to put MEQ and GEQ together, he had the chance to play around with the MEQ and GEQ dynamic to bring something fresh to the game. Imagine a horde of renegade guardsmen with Veteran Chaos Marines as sergeant, combining cultists squads with marine squads, the Dark Apostle gaining more power with more models in his squad, maybe even give the Dark Apostle a preaching ability that will work similar to orders, or feed units into possessed vehicles to gain buffs, the possibilities are endless. But instead it's just another marine book with some slightly different rules and stats, the Chaos armies will look like marines, play like marines, and die like marines.

A.T.
04-10-2012, 18:02
...which don't bring the codex on par with the current power level.By current power level I take it you mean 6th ed crons, 5th ed GK ?
From what I can see by the time the good units, builds, and combos have been shaken out of the dex it's going to be decent enough - perhaps not noob-friendly like the old 5th ed GK net lists or as annoying as crons but it's not - as another poster called it - the next nid codex.



Huh??? How is that possible? I can't find the options for that.Tzeentch in terminator armour, black mace, not sure about the 13 attacks but you wouldn't be far off after rolling 6 for the daemon weapon. Might be including a bonus from gifts or psychic powers.



Imagine a horde of renegade guardsmen with Veteran Chaos Marines as sergeant, combining cultists squads with marine squads..It's already been done - it's the traitor legion list out of Imperial Armour.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 18:23
By current power level I take it you mean 6th ed crons, 5th ed GK ?
From what I can see by the time the good units, builds, and combos have been shaken out of the dex it's going to be decent enough - perhaps not noob-friendly like the old 5th ed GK net lists or as annoying as crons but it's not - as another poster called it - the next nid codex.


Tzeentch in terminator armour, black mace, not sure about the 13 attacks but you wouldn't be far off after rolling 6 for the daemon weapon. Might be including a bonus from gifts or psychic powers.


It's already been done - it's the traitor legion list out of Imperial Armour.

Indeed that begs the question
WHY is the sub-division dooing a better job then the A-team?

Buddha777
04-10-2012, 18:26
The 6th edition Chaos book is pretty much the book of missed opportunities. It's pretty much the 4th edition book with some extra units and rules added in, slap on an army-wide rule that's straight out of fantasy and call it a day. The overall dynamic of the book hasn't changed, and it doesn't even reflect Chaos Marines that much.

I expect the Chaos Marine book to be similar to the Grey Knights, a collection of several relevant factions with an emphasis on marines. It shouldn't be all about marines, it's more about all the factions that opposes the Imperium. The fluff describes Chaos Marines as thousand year old veterans whose powers are further enhanced by eldritch powers, and how does the game rule reflect that? +1 leadership and hatred against marines. Are you serious?

The truth is, I DON'T want the Chaos book to play like any other marine books. What the chaos book needs is a true dynamic shift in their play-style to steer away from just hordes of marines. A true elite army backed up by cheap troops with real options and viable builds, with more Dark Mechanicus units and more more cultist options, it's quite ironic that the Grey Knight book is a better CSM book than the actual CSM book. I mean, which one of these have the stats of a true veteran enhanced by warp power, a paladin, or a stock Chaos Terminator?

Phil Kelly had a chance to do something truly interesting with this book, this is one of the few books where it's plausible to put MEQ and GEQ together, he had the chance to play around with the MEQ and GEQ dynamic to bring something fresh to the game. Imagine a horde of renegade guardsmen with Veteran Chaos Marines as sergeant, combining cultists squads with marine squads, the Dark Apostle gaining more power with more models in his squad, maybe even give the Dark Apostle a preaching ability that will work similar to orders, or feed units into possessed vehicles to gain buffs, the possibilities are endless. But instead it's just another marine book with some slightly different rules and stats, the Chaos armies will look like marines, play like marines, and die like marines.

I agree, for the most part in terms of substance there were a lot of wasted opportunities. I think though they were at least trying with all the new daemon engines and units like warp talons and mutilators (even if clumsily done) to allow players to take a force that really seemed mutated by the warp.

In terms of competitiveness I'm not worried I think with the dust settles they will be a tier 1 tournament army. Between the new daemon engines, and Abaddon's ability to make chosen troops (6 units of 5 meltagun toating marines here we come), special character boosts like typhus' plague zombies, I believe there will be some good variety of effective builds across the field and I do not believe we've been cursed to the shelves like poor tyranid players.

Szafraniec
04-10-2012, 18:31
I was really excited about Plague Zombies, but they messed up the rules. As written, it says Cultists nominated as Plague Zombies can't take any options. The first thing under options is adding guys to the squad. No options means 10 man squad.

No zombie horde until that gets fixed.

Noise Marines are sweet. I've seen a lot of people talking about them on this thread...I think they're the strongest cult unit out there now. With all of the 'blobs' out there, ignoring cover is fantastic.

The_Klobb_Maniac
04-10-2012, 18:31
The 6th edition Chaos book is pretty much the book of missed opportunities. It's pretty much the 4th edition book with some extra units and rules added in, slap on an army-wide rule that's straight out of fantasy and call it a day. The overall dynamic of the book hasn't changed, and it doesn't even reflect Chaos Marines that much.

I expect the Chaos Marine book to be similar to the Grey Knights, a collection of several relevant factions with an emphasis on marines. It shouldn't be all about marines, it's more about all the factions that opposes the Imperium. The fluff describes Chaos Marines as thousand year old veterans whose powers are further enhanced by eldritch powers, and how does the game rule reflect that? +1 leadership and hatred against marines. Are you serious?

The truth is, I DON'T want the Chaos book to play like any other marine books. What the chaos book needs is a true dynamic shift in their play-style to steer away from just hordes of marines. A true elite army backed up by cheap troops with real options and viable builds, with more Dark Mechanicus units and more more cultist options, it's quite ironic that the Grey Knight book is a better CSM book than the actual CSM book. I mean, which one of these have the stats of a true veteran enhanced by warp power, a paladin, or a stock Chaos Terminator?

Phil Kelly had a chance to do something truly interesting with this book, this is one of the few books where it's plausible to put MEQ and GEQ together, he had the chance to play around with the MEQ and GEQ dynamic to bring something fresh to the game. Imagine a horde of renegade guardsmen with Veteran Chaos Marines as sergeant, combining cultists squads with marine squads, the Dark Apostle gaining more power with more models in his squad, maybe even give the Dark Apostle a preaching ability that will work similar to orders, or feed units into possessed vehicles to gain buffs, the possibilities are endless. But instead it's just another marine book with some slightly different rules and stats, the Chaos armies will look like marines, play like marines, and die like marines.


This post is a joke. VotLW isn't the only warp affected/verteran bit. Why not forget that compared to most loyalists, if you want, you can be:
-Marked
-Iconed
-Have 2ccw + bolter
-have champ + 2 special weapons @ 10 members

Of course they live, fight, and die like marines;; they're marines. However writing off every upgrade because they don't start with every upgrade is an atrocious argument and belittling for the sake of belittling.


He took the two codices, smashed them together, and added some stuff. Seems plausible given that people liked both codices and hated both codices. Now we just have parts of each side whining in agreement because either the book they liked changed or they've waited for the book they didn't like to become 3.5 and it didn't.

cuda1179
04-10-2012, 18:36
I have a question regarding the Boon of Mutation. Hypothetically, if a model is effected by it several times in a single game, do the benifits stack, or get replaced each time? For instance, If a Lord gets +1 strength, the next turn gets +1 attack, then the next turn gets turned into a daemon Prince, is he a +1 strength, +1 attack daemon prince?

Szafraniec
04-10-2012, 18:40
I have a question regarding the Boon of Mutation. Hypothetically, if a model is effected by it several times in a single game, do the benifits stack, or get replaced each time? For instance, If a Lord gets +1 strength, the next turn gets +1 attack, then the next turn gets turned into a daemon Prince, is he a +1 strength, +1 attack daemon prince?

I believe it says they stack.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 18:44
This post is a joke. VotLW isn't the only warp affected/verteran bit. Why not forget that compared to most loyalists, if you want, you can be:
-Marked
-Iconed
-Have 2ccw + bolter
-have champ + 2 special weapons @ 10 members

Of course they live, fight, and die like marines;; they're marines. However writing off every upgrade because they don't start with every upgrade is an atrocious argument and belittling for the sake of belittling.


He took the two codices, smashed them together, and added some stuff. Seems plausible given that people liked both codices and hated both codices. Now we just have parts of each side whining in agreement because either the book they liked changed or they've waited for the book they didn't like to become 3.5 and it didn't.

VTOLW is a (&*(&^&^&* joke.
There was one armie before this that had a specific anti a other armie theme and that was deamon hunters.
And those where going no where no where till they became grey knights.

And yes he's right. mark all you want icon all you want. They still won't feel like uber marines just like paladins do.

Space wolves whit thier monster cavalarie and grey knight whit thier truley elite marines. Just make better chaos marines then the actual chaos marines.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 18:45
I think the new Doombolt is far and away much better. It merges the old bolt and doombolt. Its the same as the old bolt minus 6", which isn't a big deal. On average the old doombolt could kill 1.3 T4 power armor models. The new one can get 4.2 (if you can line up seven models) - even those in termie armor. If you can only line up 3 its 2.5 on average - still twice as good. It only gets worse with 1 model.

It makes putting a sorcerer on a jetbike seem like a lot of fun.

Vedar
04-10-2012, 18:47
I don't know why people are getting all excited about noise marines. They are worse now though being 4 points cheaper. Ignoring cover at 24" while you stand still is not that great.

If they still had assault weapons they might have been good.
If they had a 36" range they might have been good.
If they had Salvo 3/4 or even 2/4 they might have been good.

I used to run them as a harasment unit keep around 24" and blasting away or a shock unit deploying from a rhino, blasting away with 20 shots and then assaulting at I5. I can't do that any more.

They are pretty much only good for now keeping overwatch over a 24" bubble.

Valorel
04-10-2012, 18:48
I expect the Chaos Marine book to be similar to the Grey Knights, a collection of several relevant factions with an emphasis on marines. .


I've got excellent news for you! There's no law in the whole world that stops you from playing GK! You can even take CSM models if you don't want to buy/paint or find GK minis horrible!

Why can't we stop crying over what the codex could have been, or not being what some wanted? I really like the new codex, and I'm a Tzeentchian player... If I can find it good, anyone can :D
The dex is done. People need to get over it.

Latro_
04-10-2012, 18:49
They stack, i'd argue the daemon prince one does not keep the bonuses though as is specifically says 'replace model with daemon prince'

d6juggernaut
04-10-2012, 18:52
This post is a joke. VotLW isn't the only warp affected/verteran bit. Why not forget that compared to most loyalists, if you want, you can be:
-Marked
-Iconed
-Have 2ccw + bolter
-have champ + 2 special weapons @ 10 members

Point taken, but every marine book have marines that can take a bunch of upgrades. Doesn't make them special.



Of course they live, fight, and die like marines;; they're marines. However writing off every upgrade because they don't start with every upgrade is an atrocious argument and belittling for the sake of belittling.

I wasn't addressing the marines specifically, I was talking about the options given by the book didn't shift away from the loyalist books enough. I don't think I wrote off any upgrades, I simply said the Veteran rule seems a bit underwhelming.


He took the two codices, smashed them together, and added some stuff. Seems plausible given that people liked both codices and hated both codices. Now we just have parts of each side whining in agreement because either the book they liked changed or they've waited for the book they didn't like to become 3.5 and it didn't.

Who's "he"?

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 18:54
Either I'm not seeing it or the rumored "bolster" effect the Dark Apostle is supposed to provide to Cult troops was false. :( Too bad. That might have made it worth taking.

d6juggernaut
04-10-2012, 18:55
I've got excellent news for you! There's no law in the whole world that stops you from playing GK! You can even take CSM models if you don't want to buy/paint or find GK minis horrible!

Why can't we stop crying over what the codex could have been, or not being what some wanted? I really like the new codex, and I'm a Tzeentchian player... If I can find it good, anyone can :D
The dex is done. People need to get over it.

I'm just discussing my first impressions of the Codex, as the title of the thread suggests. Agree or disagree, I'm totally fine with both, but simply going "stop complaining and get over it" is a bit anti-discussion.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 18:57
I've got excellent news for you! There's no law in the whole world that stops you from playing GK! You can even take CSM models if you don't want to buy/paint or find GK minis horrible!

Why can't we stop crying over what the codex could have been, or not being what some wanted? I really like the new codex, and I'm a Tzeentchian player... If I can find it good, anyone can :D
The dex is done. People need to get over it.

the nid dex was done long ago ppl are still not over it (an yes thats way worse then this dex)

Just cause it done doesn't mean we have to like it.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 18:58
Either I'm not seeing it or the rumored "bolster" effect the Dark Apostle is supposed to provide to Cult troops was false. :( Too bad. That might have made it worth taking.

IT false.

He's like a chaplain. He gives reroll to hit on the first round and fearless.

MarshalFaust
04-10-2012, 18:59
Im actually really liking what im hearing about this book so far. Chaos is my main army and ive really been looking forward to this codex for a while now but my biggest concern has been that they might create an army book that is way over powered ala grey knights and become the new hot trendy codex for power gamers. But it seems kelly has done a great job of creating an internally balanced book with lots of options to create competitive and fluffy armies. Finally it seems chaos may have dreads worth taking! now im withholding my final judgement until i actually have the codex in-hand but im feeling very optimistic about my Iron Warriors.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 19:00
I don't know why people are getting all excited about noise marines. They are worse now though being 4 points cheaper. Ignoring cover at 24" while you stand still is not that great.

If they still had assault weapons they might have been good.
If they had a 36" range they might have been good.
If they had Salvo 3/4 or even 2/4 they might have been good.

I used to run them as a harasment unit keep around 24" and blasting away or a shock unit deploying from a rhino, blasting away with 20 shots and then assaulting at I5. I can't do that any more.

They are pretty much only good for now keeping overwatch over a 24" bubble.

I gues its cause. When you just move up the board a bit you can just shot at stuff till its dead.
Costing only 5 points more then a marine but having 3 times the fire-power goes a long way.
Also a 24 inch bubble is about the whole board if you move forward at the start of the game.

Jericho
04-10-2012, 19:00
I've got excellent news for you! There's no law in the whole world that stops you from playing GK! You can even take CSM models if you don't want to buy/paint or find GK minis horrible!

Why can't we stop crying over what the codex could have been, or not being what some wanted? I really like the new codex, and I'm a Tzeentchian player... If I can find it good, anyone can :D
The dex is done. People need to get over it.

Any Tzeentch player who doesn't embrace change should have their army confiscated by the irony police.

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 19:01
IT false.

He's like a chaplain. He gives reroll to hit on the first round and fearless.

So he is basically just filler to round out a page. :) I can't see ever having a reason to put that on the table. Our HQ options are as crowded as our Elite and Heavy. Everyone will take one Special Character for one HQ (probably to unlock one or another types of Cult troops), and then take a Lord or Sorcerer to unlock the other they are using. Too bad.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 19:09
He also give LD10 in a 6" bubble so pretty handy for keeping a couple of large blobs of cultists from going anywhere.

Jericho
04-10-2012, 19:12
By the sound of it, the Apostle seems like a bit of wasted potential. Time will tell if he gets any use, I guess. Might save me some dollars lol.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 19:13
I don't know why people are getting all excited about noise marines.
*snip*
I used to run them as a harasment unit keep around 24" and blasting away or a shock unit deploying from a rhino, blasting away with 20 shots and then assaulting at I5. I can't do that any more.
You haven't been able to jump out of a Rhino and shoot since 6E came out, so blaming the new codex is a bit silly. I agree that the loss of range on the move sucks, but that's life.

Noise Marines are now a mid-field play. You deploy them forward in cover, and then shoot anything within 24" (and in the mid-field, that's a lot of targets). Being fearless means that you can't just shoot them off the board, and having I5 makes assaulting them a much more tricky proposition. Ignores cover is just icing on the cake, and enhances their anti-horde abilities (look out, Orks!). Also, they're still doing pretty decent damage on the move, which is good when other troops get too close or you need to shift to objectives.

Do you understand why people see them as pretty damned good now that they're much cheaper? It's a mistake to just look at one aspect of them, it's the total package that's so compelling.

The_Klobb_Maniac
04-10-2012, 19:14
Re-rolls aren't bad? Chaplains have always been decent and it allows two things:
-Termies being ridic in combat
-Word Bearers lists

not filler per say; just less useful than the now appropriately costed lord/sorc

big squig
04-10-2012, 19:14
I have yet to see the codex myself, but if the wave of new codexes are indeed weaker on the power scale, and have less options, then good. Ward and CRUDdance are the worst thing to ever happen to 40k.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 19:18
Re-rolls aren't bad? Chaplains have always been decent and it allows two things:
-Termies being ridic in combat
-Word Bearers lists

not filler per say; just less useful than the now appropriately costed lord/sorc

Not to mention the model is *********** awsome

MarshalFaust
04-10-2012, 19:22
Not everyone uses the cult troops or even sorcerers. Why is the option to take a unit buffing combat HQ a bad thing?

Valorel
04-10-2012, 19:24
I'm just discussing my first impressions of the Codex, as the title of the thread suggests. Agree or disagree, I'm totally fine with both, but simply going "stop complaining and get over it" is a bit anti-discussion.

I don't think 7 pages of "OMG the codex is worse than 4th!! I'll sell my army" is a discussion, but I agree with you, everyone is totally free to have his opinion.
To be honest, I'm happy a lot of people don't see the potential of this codex, as the less it is played, the less my opponents will know what they'll face, the more I'll win my games/tournaments :D
I know very well what necron and GK can do, and hope they won't know what I can do with my army.

My first impression about this codex is that it is very good! A discussion is not repeating one's opinion without listening to the other's. As always on the net, everyone will get stuck with his opinion and won't take into account anything else. It's not against you personnaly, really, but comparing a codex to GK is just plain wrong, as it is, IMO a very bad codex.

Poseidal
04-10-2012, 19:24
I've always much preferred Fantasy Chaos to Chaos Space Marines, but this is the most compelling one yet.

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 19:29
Not everyone uses the cult troops or even sorcerers. Why is the option to take a unit buffing combat HQ a bad thing?

Several reasons. Bear in mind that I'm commenting from a purely competitive perspective. The gun is king in this edition and the kind of buff provided isn't going to happen enough or to your favor to be worth the slot loss. Noise Marines and Plague Marines remain the go-to guys and having them as scoring units is fairly important. Plague Marines didn't go down in cost but the Noise Marines did overall. PM shoot solidly. Noise Marines shoot well. Both have FNP naturally or via a purchase. The Special Characters that unlock them as troops are both excellent. It depends a great deal on whether you will want/need Outflank because if you do, you will choose Typhus OR Lucius and team up with Huron. Otherwise you will probably go with Typhus and Lucius to maximize gun line potential and durability with excellent special weapon choices. There will be other things thrown in of course, to modulate firepower and/or defend against fliers. But the heart and soul of competitive lists is going to be Noise/Nurgle. While overall the points have gone down, they have not gone down enough to not have them as scoring troops too.

Erwos
04-10-2012, 19:31
Not everyone uses the cult troops or even sorcerers. Why is the option to take a unit buffing combat HQ a bad thing?
I don't think anyone thinks DAs are bad, just that they're not as good as the Chaos Lord or Sorceror. 40k mechanics have always leaned towards "swing more", not "miss less".

Depulsor
04-10-2012, 19:35
I don't know why people are getting all excited about noise marines.
...
They are pretty much only good for now keeping overwatch over a 24" bubble.

That is true, but they really are the kings in that 24" bubble.

Yes, they not the solution to everything (They even lost some flexibility), but if you need a unit to camp on a midfield objective, they do that while beeing at their best.
Normal CSM with bolters or cultists can camp too... but honestly... they dont get anything done while doing that. Especially not against GEQ in cover.
(Ignoring cover can be VERY important ... at 24" against GEQ who go to ground behind 3+ cover, 1 noise marine has the killing power of 18 marines with bolters. Sure, now thats the 100% optimal situation, but even in normal situations, they are very good.)
With their new ability and their reduced costs, they got A: a very new and unique role and B: they got a lot more cost-effective.

And as I said, they arent the solution to everything, and they dont need to be. They are just really good at what they do now.

Shamana
04-10-2012, 19:43
Everyone will take one Special Character for one HQ (probably to unlock one or another types of Cult troops), and then take a Lord or Sorcerer to unlock the other they are using. Too bad.

Really? I thought a lord and a sorcerer would be an easy combo if you want to unlock 2 cults, but a dark apostle or a dark-techmarine (whatever its name was) could work just as well in some lists (cultist-heavy and ranged mech, respectively)

anarnii
04-10-2012, 20:07
Can someone with the book list the dreadnaught weapon options?

Have the basic dreads gone up, down, or stayed the same with points?

Can warpsmiths get bike options?

The_Klobb_Maniac
04-10-2012, 20:17
Space wolves whit thier monster cavalarie and grey knight whit thier truley elite marines. Just make better chaos marines then the actual chaos marines.

??
You still get Champ + 2 specials (which is better.) You still have marks (which can allow you to be better depending). Notice that you're down 1 defensive attack if you take MoK from SW, and the same price (but you have a champ + specials.) Also note that GH are OP by comparison to *Everything*. Sorry to tell you, comparing to the *best fraggin troop choice in the game* and mentioning their TWC doesn't make them better chaos marines; it makes you jealous. Why would they give chaos the same TWC reborn? People would just whine about that too.

Their marines aren't elite, they're just better all-rounders. You can still have better infantry, it just costs you points. What don't you get? You don't get better GH for the same points, you get better GH by paying more than them; that's how a game works. That's all you got. Do MoK IoW CCW upped champ double specials VotLW marines and tell me GH are better. They could be for the points, but they sure as hell aren't more elite.

You're complaining because you have to spend points to get that, but if they made marines come with all of that then people couldn't do a nice Word Bearers horde or just BP CCW marines, or myriad other options the flexibility adds.


Further, VotLW is a great upgrade as it is fantastic against the tourny-meta which is the only thing someone arguing about codex balance should be screaming about anyway. Compare to GH.

Neither charge let's say. Same attacks + you get re-rolls and better weapons or a champ (GH can only have one of those choices.) You win.

Both charge (impossible, but good for comparison) You have +1 attack over them. They charge, you're on even footing, but have re-rolls.

You win in every scenario. (you paid points to do it however, which agian... is how the game works?)

Shamana
04-10-2012, 20:17
No bike on a warpsmith as far as I can tell. Only lords and sorcerers. The hellbrute is a bit costlier than the old dread with the same configuration, and unless I'm counting it right has 1 less base attack as it doesn't get an automatic +1 from the dread CCW/powerfist. Otherwise, its options are pretty similar, with the hellbrute being able to substitute its power fist for a thunder hammer or a power scourge; also, the crazed special rule isn't nearly as bad.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 20:19
Can someone with the book list the dreadnaught weapon options?

Have the basic dreads gone up, down, or stayed the same with points?

Can warpsmiths get bike options?

No - mounts are lord and sorc only.

Hellbrute base cost is up about 15 - weapon options down 5-10.
-Multimelta
-TL HB
-TL Las
-Reaper
-Plasma
-Replace other arm w/ ML
-No havoc launcher available

Xerkics
04-10-2012, 20:19
Did you guys seriously expect legion rules and cult stuff after Forgeworld announced heresy? Why would they compete with themselves? They publish legion stuff exclusively in forgeworld so if you want that stuff you have to fork out cash for that.

Latro_
04-10-2012, 20:22
Can someone with the book list the dreadnaught weapon options?

Have the basic dreads gone up, down, or stayed the same with points?

Can warpsmiths get bike options?

Comes with fist and multi melta

Can replace MM with:
Powerfist, TL Heavy Bolter, Reaper autocannon, plasmacannon, TL lascannon

Can upgrade either PF to have:
Combi bolter, Flamer

CAn replace powerfist with:
Thunder hammer, Power scourge

Can replace one PF with missile launcher (frag/krak) (so you can have ML and PF still)

And no, no bike jump pack or steed for warpsmith

anarnii
04-10-2012, 20:25
So no double autocannon dread?

Shame theres none of the demon weapon options / way to make it venerable etc.

Any reason for it to go up in price when most vehicles went down, (unless they got better)?

Shamana
04-10-2012, 20:31
Any reason for it to go up in price when most vehicles went down, (unless they got better)?

It doesn't shoot up your own boys, for one ;) However, it may start running up towards the enemy if glanced or penetrated.

anarnii
04-10-2012, 20:33
so none of the demon engine buffs? thats a shame as its now a helbrute not just a dreadnaught.

how does the scourge work?

thanks for all the help

A.T.
04-10-2012, 20:35
Did you guys seriously expect legion rules and cult stuff after Forgeworld announced heresy? Why would they compete with themselves? They publish legion stuff exclusively in forgeworld so if you want that stuff you have to fork out cash for that.There would never be space for it in the codex anyway - legion stuff is easy enough to do with guard or tyrant legion allies without transposing a couple of dozen units into the CSM dex.

Shamana
04-10-2012, 20:38
The scourge is a power fist-like weapon with a special rule that reduces the WS of nearby models. Generally speaking, in practice this will usually mean hitting on 3. Not sure if two of them would stack, I imagine not.

BTW, I'm not sure - would a model get +2 attacks for 2 power fists and 2 scourges?

Navar
04-10-2012, 20:40
legion stuff is easy enough to do with guard or tyrant legion allies without transposing a couple of dozen units into the CSM dex.

Really, How do you do Death Guard?

bad dice
04-10-2012, 20:40
??
You still get Champ + 2 specials (which is better.) You still have marks (which can allow you to be better depending). Notice that you're down 1 defensive attack if you take MoK from SW, and the same price (but you have a champ + specials.) Also note that GH are OP by comparison to *Everything*. Sorry to tell you, comparing to the *best fraggin troop choice in the game* and mentioning their TWC doesn't make them better chaos marines; it makes you jealous. Why would they give chaos the same TWC reborn? People would just whine about that too.

Their marines aren't elite, they're just better all-rounders. You can still have better infantry, it just costs you points. What don't you get? You don't get better GH for the same points, you get better GH by paying more than them; that's how a game works. That's all you got. Do MoK IoW CCW upped champ double specials VotLW marines and tell me GH are better. They could be for the points, but they sure as hell aren't more elite.

You're complaining because you have to spend points to get that, but if they made marines come with all of that then people couldn't do a nice Word Bearers horde or just BP CCW marines, or myriad other options the flexibility adds.


Further, VotLW is a great upgrade as it is fantastic against the tourny-meta which is the only thing someone arguing about codex balance should be screaming about anyway. Compare to GH.

Neither charge let's say. Same attacks + you get re-rolls and better weapons or a champ (GH can only have one of those choices.) You win.

Both charge (impossible, but good for comparison) You have +1 attack over them. They charge, you're on even footing, but have re-rolls.

You win in every scenario. (you paid points to do it however, which agian... is how the game works?)

Eh hu

I agree that gray hunter are severely under costed. But thats not the point is was trying to make
The point was that the codex is bot stratigicly and tacticly un intresting

From a stratic standpoint. The list does not allow you much in terms of a battle plan. Cause the options are so limted
Marines and other like IG get options that allow them to build there list around a real stratig theme. Like droppods or air caf.

Chaos gets duded whit bolters. Sure some dudes are red some dudes are blue and some are even pink. But there is noting interesting to do whit these dudes.

For the same token tacticly they are boreing cause there is almost no way to suprise your opponent. Dudes whit bolters are dudes whit bolters. Haveing nog teleporter homers or troops whit outflank is just silly.

So its not so much about the point effectivness.

IT just that if I want to play a armie whit marines riding monsters . I need to play loyalists.
If I want to play marines back up by all sort of arcane toys I need to play loyalists.

That is the problem
SW and Grey knights feel more like chaos marines then chaos marines.

And then to get a codex the feels half done and does not even include the options you expect (like i don't know DEAMON WEAPONS FOR EVERY GOD OR A WAY TO GET INTO COMBAT MORE EFFICIENTLY THEN WALKING) That just feels like a kick in the nuts.

Despite the good points in this codex
Lets not forget that its rather nice two

I mean bikers are realy good.
Lord Huron BlackHeart is a bad ass now
The forgefiend seems pretty good to me two.( if only cause he helps whit the major problem of not having infiltrate)
Assault cannons on the oblitortors is nice (now we can kill hordes yeaa)
cheaper oblitorators is nice.
Raptors priced to move is nice
A cheaper predator is nice (although still more expensive then the loyalist one grrrr)

But overall i say meh

A.T.
04-10-2012, 20:44
Really, How do you do Death Guard?I was thinking of tyrant legion. Death guard is going to have to wait for one of the heresy books, siege of terra most likely unless GW starts to release chapter updates via white dwarf.

Not having the codex to hand - could somebody count up the number of entries (including named characters, transports, etc - but not marked vs unmarked cultists or anything like that).
How many are individual entries are there?

Chapters Unwritten
04-10-2012, 20:46
I would argue that the Chaos troops are one of the better sets in the game. Super cheap cultists, cheaper Chaos Marines with more abilities and upgrades...I see a lot of people talking about how shooting is king and assault is dead but isn't there an upgrade in the codex for vehicles that makes you unable to overwatch? That is huge.

You Chaos guys are surprisingly negative. I should know; I am a Wolves player, and you guys have been barking up our fenrisian tree about things for a long time. Ignoring all the positive things is pretty amazing. I wasn't particularly impressed with the book, but I can see a lot of useful things in it without a doubt. You are going to hate it if you just look for your glaring awesome bonuses and get pissed. Personally I think it's going to play more like Chaos than ever before.

A few things that stand out to me:

- I know it's unlikely, but you guys don't find a free daemon prince possibility at all enticing? What happens if the model turning into a DP is a troops choice; is he scoring?

- VotLW is pretty useful, to me. You can gear your CSM squads for Combat and use that to get Hatred(half the codexes in the game). Re-rolling all misses in the first round of a combat, even without a charge, is sick (and I would know, I used the Wolf Priest's PE to do this all through 5th). You have an advantage against every unit you fight that isn't a guard, tau, necron or eldar variant.

- I'm very surprised at the Terminator rage. They are the cheapest terminators in the game!

- The Obliterator got a buff with the addition of the assault cannon.

- The Lord is super cheap! Weren't you guys whining all last edition that they were too expensive?

- The Shatter Defenses move lets you ruin the effectiveness of a lot of cover.

- The Chaos boon table is pretty much universally buffs you and makes an amazingly fluffy background for your Champions. You can buy free rolls on it that ignore the worst result. Come on; that isn't good enough for you people?

- Nice machine curse rule. If techmarines had that maybe someone would field one once in a while.

- I like the vehicle upgrades. Dirge Caster can be taken for some of the walkers. Seems like a good investment if you plan on CC.

I know it doesn't seem like a killer book, but personally I think people are going to do some interesting and fun things with it. All this naysaying is very overdramatic.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 20:58
Building a strategy that depends on "surprising" your opponent seems rather foolish when they know what you have in reserve. We have plenty of fast units, but you limiting your thought process to cult troops on foot. We still have rhinos, bikes got awesome, spawn are great, maulerfiends are imposing, the heldrake can burninate stuff real good.

Huron
Lord on disc w/ daemon weapon and 3++
7 Chosen, MoK, stuff
10 CSM, MoN, stuff
10 CSM, MoN, stuff, rhino
5 spawn
5 bikes
Heldrake
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
7 Havocs w/ skyfire ML

Infiltrate chosen and a squad of CSM. Infiltrate the other squad if you can otherwise they ride in the rhino. Stick the disc rider in with the bikes and zip over.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 21:15
Building a strategy that depends on "surprising" your opponent seems rather foolish when they know what you have in reserve. We have plenty of fast units, but you limiting your thought process to cult troops on foot. We still have rhinos, bikes got awesome, spawn are great, maulerfiends are imposing, the heldrake can burninate stuff real good.

Huron
Lord on disc w/ daemon weapon and 3++
7 Chosen, MoK, stuff
10 CSM, MoN, stuff
10 CSM, MoN, stuff, rhino
5 spawn
5 bikes
Heldrake
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
7 Havocs w/ skyfire ML

Infiltrate chosen and a squad of CSM. Infiltrate the other squad if you can otherwise they ride in the rhino. Stick the disc rider in with the bikes and zip over.

Ha you be surprised how much you can surprise you opponent whit reserves and some nice special rules (pun intended).

But I like your list its not one I would use but it works fine I would assume.

But just takeing Huron for the infiltrated makes me a bit sad

Yes i would an will defnetly do it problem tough is
One he's a name character (which i find less appealing)
Two d3 is random and might go from 3 units in YOU FACE
to 1 unit from the side depending on what you roll.

Also i am not to found of those skufire ml. Auto cannons just seem better to me .

Vaktathi
04-10-2012, 21:17
- I'm very surprised at the Terminator rage. They are the cheapest terminators in the game! That now make a huge number of models illegal, were cheaper before and not by any means considered undercosted, and the Champion (who is otherwise identical to the rest of the squad) has to pay significantly more for wargear...just because. The Reaper Autocannon is still painfully overcosted.



- The Obliterator got a buff with the addition of the assault cannon. And is now Ld8, not Fearless, and can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row. They really did not get better.



- The Chaos boon table is pretty much universally buffs you and makes an amazingly fluffy background for your Champions. You can buy free rolls on it that ignore the worst result. Come on; that isn't good enough for you people? It's a hamfisted copy-paste of a Fantasy mechanics. Yes it has some charm, but being forced to always make and accept challenges is a huge drawback. It works in Fantasy because Chaos characters are designed for Character killing (there's very little that can match a generic fantasy Chaos lord in a challenge aside from some SC's and big monsters), and this rule/table reinforces that role and keeps them from otherwise butchering through units all the time. In 40k, Chaos characters aren't really different from half the armies in the game, the rule isn't reinforcing an aspect of the army, and the fluff with CSM's is different in that many CSM's would just as soon drown their worthy foes in weenies or blast them from orbit before fighting them face to face.



- Nice machine curse rule. If techmarines had that maybe someone would field one once in a while. given you have to be relatively close, and many weapons aren't multi-shot, it's of very limited and situational value, especially if the Warpsmith is in a unit that wants to do anything other than shoot at that vehicle.



I know it doesn't seem like a killer book, but personally I think people are going to do some interesting and fun things with it. All this naysaying is very overdramatic.There *is* some good stuff. Unfortunately there's just as much gak and stuff that got changed simply for the sake of change (e.g. Berzerkers getting dropped to A1/Ld9 and instead getting Rage and Counterattack, meaning they're less effective in subsequent combat rounds than they used to be and are potentially much less effective if charged and they fail their Ld test)

Vedar
04-10-2012, 21:22
I would argue that the Chaos troops are one of the better sets in the game. Super cheap cultists, cheaper Chaos Marines with more abilities and upgrades...I see a lot of people talking about how shooting is king and assault is dead but isn't there an upgrade in the codex for vehicles that makes you unable to overwatch? That is huge. No not realy

You Chaos guys are surprisingly negativeReally?. I should know; I am a Wolves playerOh that explains it..., and you guys have been barking up our fenrisian tree about things for a long time. Ignoring all the positive things is pretty amazing. I wasn't particularly impressed with the book, but I can see a lot of useful things in it without a doubt. You are going to hate it if you just look for your glaring awesome bonuses and get pissed. Personally I think it's going to play more like Chaos than ever before.

A few things that stand out to me:

- I know it's unlikely, but you guys don't find a free daemon prince possibility at all enticing? What happens if the model turning into a DP is a troops choice; is he scoring? Or he could turn into a Spawn

- VotLW is pretty useful, to me. You can gear your CSM squads for Combat and use that to get Hatred(half the codexes in the game). Re-rolling all misses in the first round of a combat, even without a charge, is sick (and I would know, I used the Wolf Priest's PE to do this all through 5th). You have an advantage against every unit you fight that isn't a guard, tau, necron or eldar variant. nobody is complaining about that

- I'm very surprised at the Terminator rage. They are the cheapest terminators in the game!And now all my metal terminators are modeled illegal...

- The Obliterator got a buff with the addition of the assault cannon. And a nerf by not being able to fire the same weapon twice

- The Lord is super cheap! Weren't you guys whining all last edition that they were too expensive? No, we were whining they were not worth taking bacause the Daemon prince was much better for about the same cost, now the Daemon Prince is so much more expensive they don't look as bad. Though it is looking liks special characters are the way to go. Huron looks pretty good for 160 points.

- The Shatter Defenses move lets you ruin the effectiveness of a lot of cover. Yup, My War(p)smith lives again

- The Chaos boon table is pretty much universally buffs you and makes an amazingly fluffy background for your Champions. You can buy free rolls on it that ignore the worst result. Come on; that isn't good enough for you people?10 points for something you might not use.... not so great

- Nice machine curse rule. If techmarines had that maybe someone would field one once in a while. close range, need to roll 1's then 1-3. I does not seem that game changing

- I like the vehicle upgrades. Dirge Caster can be taken for some of the walkers. Seems like a good investment if you plan on CC. maybe

I know it doesn't seem like a killer book, but personally I think people are going to do some interesting and fun things with it. All this naysaying is very overdramatic.It could have been great, but we will have to settle for it's slightly better than the last one

______________________________________________

Caitsidhe
04-10-2012, 21:30
I would argue that the Chaos troops are one of the better sets in the game. Super cheap cultists, cheaper Chaos Marines with more abilities and upgrades...I see a lot of people talking about how shooting is king and assault is dead but isn't there an upgrade in the codex for vehicles that makes you unable to overwatch? That is huge.

No, it isn't. Vehicles won't last long enough, much less get close enough to provide that kind of support. In regards to cheap units, you get what you pay for. The Chaos Marines aren't actually that cheap. Once you put back in what they had before they cost just as much as before (if not more).


You Chaos guys are surprisingly negative. I should know; I am a Wolves player, and you guys have been barking up our fenrisian tree about things for a long time. Ignoring all the positive things is pretty amazing. I wasn't particularly impressed with the book, but I can see a lot of useful things in it without a doubt. You are going to hate it if you just look for your glaring awesome bonuses and get pissed. Personally I think it's going to play more like Chaos than ever before.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm positive on what is positive and negative on what is negative. There is very little to be impressed with in the book. It is going to play exactly the same as it did before. Competitive lists will boil down to Plague Marines and Noise Marines backed up by Obliterators and perhaps a unit of Havocs sitting behind an Aegis Defense Perimeter.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 21:34
GW is reintroducing leadership as a factor in games. It has been a bit of a joke stat for a while now.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 21:45
I would argue that the Chaos troops are one of the better sets in the game. Super cheap cultists, cheaper Chaos Marines with more abilities and upgrades...I see a lot of people talking about how shooting is king and assault is dead but isn't there an upgrade in the codex for vehicles that makes you unable to overwatch? That is huge. No not realy Also 6 inched who get that in range and stil manage to charge whit something else at the same time

You Chaos guys are surprisingly negativeReally? Yea I wonder why. I should know; I am a Wolves player Oh that explains it...Yea trust me when wolves came out I wasn't negative about it , and you guys have been barking up our fenrisian tree about things for a long time Well maby that's Cause you got space marines on monsters and chaos doesn't . Ignoring all the positive things is pretty amazing. I wasn't particularly impressed with the book No one is, but I can see a lot of useful things in it without a doubt. You are going to hate it if you just look for your glaring awesome bonuses and get pissed. Personally I think it's going to play more like Chaos than ever before.

A few things that stand out to me:

- I know it's unlikely, but you guys don't find a free daemon prince possibility at all enticing? What happens if the model turning into a DP is a troops choice; is he scoring? Or he could turn into a Spawn Or since he's probebly in combat so he can't be placed he'll just die.

- VotLW is pretty useful, to me. You can gear your CSM squads for Combat and use that to get Hatred(half the codexes in the game). Re-rolling all misses in the first round of a combat, even without a charge, is sick (and I would know, I used the Wolf Priest's PE to do this all through 5th). You have an advantage against every unit you fight that isn't a guard, tau, necron or eldar variant. nobody is complaining about that. I am it's a lame rule and only good cause every one is addicted to marines

- I'm very surprised at the Terminator rage. They are the cheapest terminators in the game!And now all my metal terminators are modeled illegal... Not to mention they are also the worst terminators in the game so that goes hand in hand nicely.

- The Obliterator got a buff with the addition of the assault cannon. And a nerf by not being able to fire the same weapon twice Also no fearless any more and ld got dropped.

- The Lord is super cheap! Weren't you guys whining all last edition that they were too expensive? No, we were whining they were not worth taking bacause the Daemon prince was much better for about the same cost, now the Daemon Prince is so much more expensive they don't look as bad. Though it is looking liks special characters are the way to go. Huron looks pretty good for 160 points. Well chaos lords or now pretty fine choices only the gear you get is insultingly badly written and incomplete. WTF a teleporter homer that you need to kill someone whit before it start to work. Ok the other benefit is nice. But wth since teleporting was way more common back in they day did the legions just break all those they had?

- The Shatter Defenses move lets you ruin the effectiveness of a lot of cover. Yup, My War(p)smith lives again yea it's nice

- The Chaos boon table is pretty much universally buffs you and makes an amazingly fluffy background for your Champions. You can buy free rolls on it that ignore the worst result. Come on; that isn't good enough for you people?10 points for something you might not use.... not so great Or you could get something you already have .Yea a fearless berserker champ oh wait :-(

- Nice machine curse rule. If techmarines had that maybe someone would field one once in a while. close range, need to roll 1's then 1-3. I does not seem that game changing IT will most likely have zero effect. In fact getting that close is probably not a good idea to start whit or if it is you can probably kill it any way.

- I like the vehicle upgrades. Dirge Caster can be taken for some of the walkers. Seems like a good investment if you plan on CC. maybe Only the dreadnought and the defiler can take it . The defilers is over costed and the dreadnought is not that great in combat. Also I am not that afraid of getting killed whit walkers on a charge to start whit.

I know it doesn't seem like a killer book, but personally I think people are going to do some interesting and fun things with it. All this naysaying is very overdramatic.It could have been great, but we will have to settle for it's slightly better than the last one. It's just meh also cultist are like here take your bad IG and well *&* it's a thing live whit it. No we are not going to do any thing whit it. Just look dudes every one like dudes right.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 21:47
GW is reintroducing leadership as a factor in games. It has been a bit of a joke stat for a while now.

Yea and as we all knew its GW logic that the guys living whit the deamons and **** sould fear them more then the guys not liveing whit them.
OH WAIT.

Used to annoy me in fantasy a lot two

Look our leader is a deamon form hell and hes on fire. But omg a skeleton run for the hills

Scribe of Khorne
04-10-2012, 21:50
Working on some lists with it, I have certainly come around to it, and would happily put together a number of unique armies with the book that would do decently. It can also be used quite well as or with allies.

I dont think there will ever be a perfect book, but you take this, mess with some upgrades here or there, add an ally (guard, daemons for fluff, whatever else for competitive) and your off to the races. You can choose to build nearly anything you want, legion themed, whatever.

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 21:59
Yea and as we all knew its GW logic that the guys living whit the deamons and **** sould fear them more then the guys not liveing whit them.
OH WAIT.

Used to annoy me in fantasy a lot two

Look our leader is a deamon form hell and hes on fire. But omg a skeleton run for the hills

They're still mortal and self preservation applies.

bad dice
04-10-2012, 22:02
They're still mortal and self preservation applies.

Turst me if i was a deamon prince

Staying and fighting that skeleton would be self preseravtion

Daedalus81
04-10-2012, 22:08
Turst me if i was a deamon prince

Staying and fighting that skeleton would be self preseravtion

Ok, but DPs are fearless.

Morrslieb
04-10-2012, 22:15
I'm little disappointed that both warpsmith and dark apostle are footsloggers. I would've loved to see dark apostle on either bike or jump pack.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 22:21
You hear that noise? That's the sound of the world's collective Tyranid players laughing at the suggestion that the Chaos Space Marines codex is as bad as theirs.



nononononnonono

you missed heard, see that first noise....that was the nid players with two armies going HERE WE GO AGAIN.

codex has nid syndrome, not as bad sure, but its still got it and that thing is terminal.


I'm little disappointed that both warpsmith and dark apostle are footsloggers. I would've loved to see dark apostle on either bike or jump pack.

MOT? steed?

Chapters Unwritten
04-10-2012, 22:25
I agree, but unfortunately it seems many do not, especially from how my post is turning into a bag of skittles a few posts above.

I see a lot of complaining. What exactly were you guys expecting? I agree there are some things that are silly, but it's hardly a total wash. The post above illustrates this (the colorful one). Worst Terminators in the game? VotLW is lame because it works against popular armies? The Space Wolves are better because we have cavalry? How many 40k novels have you guys read where Chaos rode giant demons? When the T-wolves came out everyone called it the stupidest thing ever. Now, you can ally with Daemons and take one of the few units that can hold up to T-wolves that are also cavalry, and instead choose to whine that they aren't in the book? Really?

I don't mean to be dismissive but COME ON. This is just senseless. I know the book isn't godlike but it is hardly the complete and utter failure it is being made out to be. Most of the bitching I'm hearing is units that had no weaknesses actually getting balanced (Oblits...Zerkers...etc). I don't even see what is making the Terminators need to be remodeled, it looks like they have all the same options to me, did I miss something?

Those Troops with Marks and Icons look phenomenal to me. 20 Points for 10-man squad to have Rage and Counterattack, Initiative 5, etc. For another basic cost of ~20 points you stack up Icon of Wrath on MoK CSM and you have a pretty mean unit. Using it right with Slaanesh, you don't even need the Icon and you can use the I5 to take out challengers before they can swing, or take the Icon and have it for when they do. Khorne by far looks the best but this puts the classic 10 man unit at 180, and you still end up with a pretty hideous unit in the 240 point range once you add Champ gear and a Rhino.

Either way, it's the new book. My advice is to get started looking at it's strengths, because being upset about your weaknesses doesn't really amount to much. Honestly I'd be embarrassed.

Str10_hurts
04-10-2012, 22:33
Well, I read the codex...I just see posts about people whining, let me guess people will go ballistic once a new SW codex hits and grey hunters got more expensive. :shifty:
New codex new stuff, simple as that. This is always the case.

The troops/HQ, 13 .s and 4 .s and dirt cheap HQ (and sick, sick havoc/reapers).
All the stuff for solid tournament armies got cheaper, IMO.

The gimmicky stuff got a bit worse maybe?

It feels as if you have more options in the new codex, yes some options were lost but man you can go from cheap simple units to rock hard expensive units with a multitude of options.

I do not play chaos marines, but this codex looks full of potential.



Also 120 .s for a lvl3 Slaanesh scorc seems brokenly good. Roll once on the Slaanesh table and the rest on the telepathy table. (and can handle challenges due to I5)

DuskRaider
04-10-2012, 22:42
The 6th Edition CSM codex is more like 4th Edition 2.0... They fixed a lot of glitches, they did give us some cool new things like Cultists (which seem little too late w/ Allies rules anyhow), but... I think Phil was WAY too conservative with it. It's a continuation of the old book, rather than a re-write like most of the other codices have been. Things were given to us (Marks), things were taken away (WHY can't I get a Manreaper on my Chaos Lord?!), and things were never added that were no-brainers (Cult Terminators).

Forge World options make things a bit more bearable I suppose, but even then you're relying on some things that should have been in the book in the first place. The Heldrake was completely unneeded when we already have Hell Blades and Hell Talons. STILL no Drop Pods. The original talk was that they were completely re-building Chaos from the ground up to salvage what they destroyed with the last book, but they really didn't do that, did they? It seems like a good enough codex, but I really feel they missed the mark and missed a great opportunity to take what is easily one of the most diverse factions in the game and represent that on the table.

My only hope is that GW makes good on the idea of updates and additions via WD, maybe we'll see more Legion-specific rules or Cult entries that way... not holding my breath, however.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 22:43
Well, I read the codex...I just see posts about people whining, let me guess people will go ballistic once a new SW codex hits and grey hunters got more expensive. :shifty:
New codex new stuff, simple as that. This is always the case.

are we reading the same codex?

because the one I'm reading seems more like new codex same 'ole junk!

Str10_hurts
04-10-2012, 22:47
are we reading the same codex?

because the one I'm reading seems more like new codex same 'ole junk!

Then explain the flying mechanical dragon you are hiding behind your back ;)

cuda1179
04-10-2012, 22:49
I've noticed several people stating that their terminators are now armed illegally, and they might have to rip off arms. If I may ask, what happened? Please tell me that they still come with combi-bolters and poower weapons as standard.

trigger
04-10-2012, 22:49
So how's abbadon ? Is he evil draigo ?

DuskRaider
04-10-2012, 22:50
Terminator weapons options haven't changed from what I've seen. Lord options have. Most Daemon Weapons are useless, but I guess that's what the old "counts-as" argument is good for.

daboarder
04-10-2012, 22:51
Then explain the flying mechanical dragon you are hiding behind your back ;)

already have,

but basically they could have done with by releasing the miniatures and rules in a WD, THAT is about the ammount of effort that has gone into this release and its appalling.

For example, when they released the latest fliers they collectively released more new units (counting the scythe) than they have for chaos.

MvS
04-10-2012, 22:53
Second attempt:

Couple of questions that have confused answers in the rumours section (I don't have the new Codex yet to check myself):

1. Is there a Land Raider wargear option called Sonic Blaster? If not, what is this wargear upgrade really called? But if so, do Noise Marines still get Sonic Blasters and are they the same rules as the Land Raider upgrade...?

2. Do Thousand Sons still get AP3 Inferno Bolts?

Thanks all! :)

Scribe of Khorne
04-10-2012, 22:54
I've noticed several people stating that their terminators are now armed illegally, and they might have to rip off arms. If I may ask, what happened? Please tell me that they still come with combi-bolters and poower weapons as standard.

Other then 2 Lightning Claws, you may upgrade EITHER the gun, or the CCW, and you need 5 to take a Heavy Flamer or Reaper.

Scribe of Khorne
04-10-2012, 22:55
Second attempt:

Couple of questions that have confused answers in the rumours section (I don't have the new Codex yet to check myself):

1. Is there a Land Raider wargear option called Sonic Blaster? If not, what is this wargear upgrade really called? But if so, do Noise Marines still get Sonic Blasters and are they the same rules as the Land Raider upgrade...?

2. Do Thousand Sons still get AP3 Inferno Bolts?

Thanks all! :)

1. No, there are dirge casters that prevent overwatch though?
2. Yes.

Str10_hurts
04-10-2012, 22:57
already have,

but basically they could have done with by releasing the miniatures and rules in a WD, THAT is about the ammount of effort that has gone into this release and its appalling.

For example, when they released the latest fliers they collectively released more new units (counting the scythe) than they have for chaos.

Well I could see your argument, but when I read the codex (as a non-chaos marine player) it feels solid and has many options to develop a unique army that was not possible in the 4th ed. chaos codex. Standard chaos marines can be formed into any of the previous codexes and more. And even the cult marines (bit sad that sacred numbers are gone but did restrict some cult troops more than others) have more options.

MvS
04-10-2012, 22:58
1. No, there are dirge casters that prevent overwatch though?
2. Yes.

Perfect! Thanks.

The rumours were throwing around all sorts of odd names.

Lord Damocles
04-10-2012, 23:00
1. Is there a Land Raider wargear option called Sonic Blaster?
No

If not, what is this wargear upgrade really called?
What are you thinking this wargear does/looks like etc.? Dirge Caster, perhaps? (blasts out nasty sounds stopping nearby enemy overwatch)

But if so, do Noise Marines still get Sonic Blasters
Yes, they're still an option.

and are they the same rules as the Land Raider upgrade...?
The Land Raider can't get anything with the same rules as a Sonic Blaster (angry Stormbolter)

2. Do Thousand Sons still get AP3 Inferno Bolts?
Yes


EDIT: Chaos Ninja attack!

MvS
04-10-2012, 23:05
EDIT: Chaos Ninja attack!

Thanks anyway my friend.

Bonzai
04-10-2012, 23:13
I get my codex tomorrow. Overall I am not suprised by much of this. Months ago the rumors stated that this was not a Phil Kelly re-design, but a continuation of Gav's codex. That seems to be not far from the truth. My first impressions?

1. I'm going to be relying on Forge World to balance out my lists more.

Much of the stuff that's lacking is kind of covered by them. A nice, fairly cheap flyer/anti-flyer unit? Hellblades got a recent point reduction, and a slight buff. Plus they don't remind me of a power ranger villian like the Helldrake does. Heck, Blight Drones are also a fair option. No drop pods? We got the dreadclaws to help with that... sorta. It's a lot more expensive now, but it does have assault launchers to compensate, so 5 termies, a contemptor, or possessed can have assault grenades. The storm eagle and land raider variants also add some variety. No AV 13 dreadnoughts? Decimators and Contemptors add some relief there. Thankfully, my shop has started allowing FW and I've got a head start on some of my orders in anticipation of this.

2. I'm actually ordering more old units than new ones.

I've been wanting to order Havocs for a while now, and finally I get to. From what I have also heard, I may want to look into bikes as well. Heck, I have 10 spawn already (don't look at me like that), I may actually field them now, aside from gift of chaos and an apoc formation. I will probably pick up a few preds and vindicators as well. I already have a counts as dark apostle and warpsmith (dark magos). I don't care for the look of the new daemon engines, and unless the rules are really good I'll probably pass. I am happy with my current dreads, and I've already started converting my own cultists. So that covers a good chunk of the new stuff.

3. I may play a psuedo lash of submission list, just to @#$# people off.

I never played lash. Now it's gone... or is it? I'm thinking Daemon allies with a cheap squad of troops (5 plague bearers perhaps?), and two heralds of Slaaanesh with charios and Pavane, and maybe even a winged daemon prince of Slaanesh with Pavane and either gaze or breath if there are poins to spare. Otherwise 2 heralds and a 5 man squad of daemons are pretty cheap. Just when they thought it was safe...Mwuhahaha! Yeah... I'm that guy.

4. Cultists were the one thing I was looking forward to in the codex... and I was right about them.

Of all the stuff added to the codex, this is probably the biggest game changer. It allows CSM's to run a horde without allies. Drop them in cover, and sit on/near an objective. Some times there just isn't enough time or bullets to work through 30 bodies. Plus they are dirt cheap, so they can be taken in small games to free up points for the killy stuff. Forget all the random roll charts, and tacked on special rules, this is the biggest inovation in the codex.

5. My possessed are going to have to wait a while longer before they become "good".

Poor guys, they never seem to catch a break. It's ok, I still love them though. Did they at least get assault grenades this dex? I didn't see them on the rumor thread, though I hope that was an oversite. Wouldn't suprise me in the least if they didn't though.... that would make too much sense.

6. I'm gonna miss my lesser and greater summoned daemons... and safe deep strike in general.

I play Word Bearers. My style of list was usually based around safe deep strike off Icons. Combi plas terminators, lesser summoed daemons, and even a greater daemon at times. It was fun, some what fluffy, and even effective on occasion. I used Furies and a LotRs Daemon to keep things Chaos United feeling. My list as it was is dead. I was prepared for this well in advance however, and have already prepared to change to a more static shooting list that this edition seems to favor. I'll get a Storm Eagle for when I want to run my terminators.

7. I was disapointed in no new special characters or legion rules, but once again FW came to the rescue!

I thought it was crappy that there were no special characters for several of the legions. Heck, the EC had two. As a Word Bearer, I wanted Erebus. I followed the rumors though, and knew what was/wasn't coming. It wouldn't have been hard to devote a page to legion rules either. The excellent fan made great crusade campain did a great job covering 18 legions, with rules, characters, unique units etc.. Some small tidbit on the traitor legions should have been easy. Even if it was simple force organization swaps for the most part. Cult marines & raptors as troops for certain legions, IG becomes battle brothers for Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors could take Oblits as elites, Daemons get to use CSM's Icons to deep strike for Word Bearers and maybe a reserve re-roll), and Black legion continues to cherry pick. Lol, didn't take to long did it? It would have at least been a bone for the people still sore about the loss of the 3.5 dex. Even vanilla marines get some love in that regard (except for Iron Hands. No one apparently cares about them). Thankfully, we can get our legion love from FW, and the upcoming HH books. God Bless em!

8. The addition of the Dark Apostle is bitter sweet.

I love Word Bearers, and already had a Dark Apostle that I was using as a counts as sorcerer. I was stoked that they were going to be included. I still am. However, it saddens me somewhat that the Hallmark of the Word Bearers is now evidently wide spread across all the legions and traitor marines. At least with the Warp Smiths, I can tell myself that they aren't War Smiths. But a Dark Apostle has always been a Word Bearer thing, with possibly a few turn coats in the Black Legion. But having a Dark Apostle of Nurgle, or of the Night Lord legion kind of cheapens the fluff. When I see them, I'll shake my head, but leave it at that. At least I can finally field him as what he is, under his proper legion.

9. The defilers explain the Decimator pricing.

They may be a tad expensive, but they did get a pretty decent hike in survivability (5++, Iwnd, etc..). Combined with a Warp Smith, they should be able to do their job. Throw in some cultists and you pretty much have the list I intend to start fielding.

10. FW aside, this will be easier on my wallet than the Necron release.

The good news is that I won't be spending all that much to bring my force up to date. This is a good thing as the prices have gone Waaay up. The Necron release was expensive on my, and new purchases were needed to be competative. Not so much with this release. Again, I haven't seen the actual codex yet, but with the possible exception of a new daemon engine most of the new stuff seems completely passable. Unfortunately, my impulse buying is going to be picked up with the HH stuff from FW.

Morrslieb
05-10-2012, 00:16
nononononnonono

you missed heard, see that first noise....that was the nid players with two armies going HERE WE GO AGAIN.

codex has nid syndrome, not as bad sure, but its still got it and that thing is terminal.



MOT? steed?

Unfortunately both smith and apostle are forbidden to take mounts :(

Chem-Dog
05-10-2012, 00:18
I don't know why people are getting all excited about noise marines. They are worse now though being 4 points cheaper. Ignoring cover at 24" while you stand still is not that great.

If they still had assault weapons they might have been good.
If they had a 36" range they might have been good.
If they had Salvo 3/4 or even 2/4 they might have been good.




The Land Raider can't get anything with the same rules as a Sonic Blaster (angry Stormbolter)


OK guys you're confusing the hell out of me here, It's not Assault, It's not Salvo but it's like a Stormbolter, What is it? Heavy? Ordnance? Template? There's only a certain amount of weapon types out there....

Fagerlund
05-10-2012, 00:33
5. My possessed are going to have to wait a while longer before they become "good".

Poor guys, they never seem to catch a break. It's ok, I still love them though. Did they at least get assault grenades this dex? I didn't see them on the rumor thread, though I hope that was an oversite. Wouldn't suprise me in the least if they didn't though.... that would make too much sense.




No grenades, but they are always Fleet at least which does help. Definitely more reliable in this codex all though still pretty expensive.


OK guys you're confusing the hell out of me here, It's not Assault, It's not Salvo but it's like a Stormbolter, What is it? Heavy? Ordnance? Template? There's only a certain amount of weapon types out there....

The Land Raider is the same as the old Codex except it's 10 points more expensive. It can take the Dirge Caster which is NOT a weapon, it simply prevents units from firing Overwatch.
Noise Marines can take Sonic Weapons that are Salvo 2/3 and have nothing to do with Land Raiders. :)

bad dice
05-10-2012, 00:49
Well I could see your argument, but when I read the codex (as a non-chaos marine player) it feels solid and has many options to develop a unique army that was not possible in the 4th ed. chaos codex. Standard chaos marines can be formed into any of the previous codexes and more. And even the cult marines (bit sad that sacred numbers are gone but did restrict some cult troops more than others) have more options.

Eeh yea now you can take gun dinos and cults

Whop whop

And you can make your plage mariens cause fear.
or make you beserkers for ap 4 for 3 points per model

so awsome. A lot of non options realy and indeed realasing the deamon engines in wd would have changed about just as much to the feel of the armie as this book.

It just doesnt feel new and sparkling

kaintxu
05-10-2012, 00:56
1st off, you cant honestly use vector stike against an enemy flyer. To do so will leave your rear armor completely exposed and you will die. Secondly, the autocannon only has a 45 degree arc of fire, so you're very limited on what you can shoot if you're also going to try and vector strike things.

Here's some math on the exchange between the two, assuming front or side armor:
Drake averages 2 hits on a vendetta. 50% that it will get a penetrating or glancing hit. So average damage in Hull Points to a vendetta from the helldrake is 1 per shooting phase. The chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33%, with a 16.6% chance of an explodes result. So total average explode results vs a vendetta per shooting phase is .1111 Meaning, on average, it will take 9 shooting rounds to get an explode result. Obviously, the hull points is the best chance, but even then, it's not exactly a high rate.

Conversely, here are the Vendettas numbers in the exchange:
An average of 2.25 hits against the drake. 44.44% chance of a hull point removed per shot (factoring in invuln save). Average hull points taken off the drake per shooting phase is 1. Chance of getting a penetrating hit is 33.33%, with a 33.33% chance of an explodes result. Total average explode results vs drake per shooting phase is .25 That's over 2 times higher.

Now, consider that the vendettas are 45 points or so cheaper, has a better cadre of weapons with longer ranges/better ap/better to-hit, and you realize that it's a pretty bad deal, and not a solid anti-flyer unit in the least. If you take any unit who's main purpose is to fight a certain type of unit, but there's another unit out there that does it better, has more versitility, and does it all for 25% cheaper, then I don't know what to call that other than 'lackluster'.

Plus some of your ideas are wrong, or are a wrong usage of the dragon.

Don't face the vendetta on a shooting contest. If you vector strike a vendetta you don't leave your rear exposed, because you can just stop right after it and it will have to move its 18" and won't be able to shoot you, and even in that case and with the flamer, since it has torrent you can place the template 12" away.

You get 3 Hits, with do something on a 5+. So its average 1 Hoff and a max of 3. Remember, once per game, you can choose, to reroll the penetration rolls. And then you get to flame some other unit (or shoot if you go hades) meaning you can obliterate another unit with flamer of maybe damage a vehicle with hades

Then, that vendetta will do nothing to you due to you placement. Its true, yo won't be able to vector strike it again, but you can always vector strike another unit a flame yet another one, or get of the table and come back later vector striking again

Second, vector strike on a vendetta is 3 hits,


I see the dragon as a nice anti-infantry vehicle more so than an anti-flyer. Chaos has plenty of alternative anti-flyer options. Flakk missiles and flying allied demon princes will most likely be my choice.

I can see the dragon coming in, zooming someplace nice, then going into hover mode to roast something tasty. Maybe zoom again for a turn to get into position, then roast something else. If it can neutralize an expensive enemy unit it makes back its points. If it can do so twice it might win you the game.

Combined with some other nasty chaos tricks like cover ignoring sonic weapons and chosen or plague marines doing drive bys with squads full of special weapons I think chaos will fare pretty well. Especially with new tactically viable fast units like bikers and jet bike HQ's that should synergize well with a unit of allied screamers.

Sorry but no hovering for the dragon. Also, why would you want to hover? the only reason is for maneubravility, if not, there is not a real point

Omegon
05-10-2012, 01:00
Sonic Blasters are Noise Marine only weapons, they are Salvo 2/3 s4 AP5 ignore Cover. They have nothing to do with Land Raiders. Ever.

Dirge Casters are a Vehicle upgrade available to a few Vehicles (Hellbrutes cannot have them). any unit within 6" of a Dirge Caster CANNOT Overwatch, simple as that. They are dirt cheap at 5 pts, and frankly the look like they are intended to taken in combo on a vehicle while another unit assaults. I like the idea of them being on a Rhino that races alongside a unit of Fire Dragons just as they are about to be charge by a Maulerfiend. :- This is also a good example of what this codex does well, units working together. Spawn eat Overwatch and work well with charging units like Cultists. Warpsmiths buff your Vehicles. You can take super units in this addition but they cost a tonne.

Also on the note of the bitch fest for terminators; I was really angry about the change in load outs, but it makes sense. I had just made 10 models, and another 5 I had were metal. It took me 20 minutes to pull the arms off and reglue them to other models making them legal again. Now if it's converted to hell and thats not possible I feel your pain. Otherwise kindly stop trolling the thread.
Also, quick price comparison.
1 unit of 5 Vanilla Terminators with lightning claws: 200 pts
1 unit of 5 Chaos Terminators with Lightning claws and VoTW: 207
We're better in combat by a mile and have better Leadership. Ok no ATSKNF but tough, we don't get them, and for 25pts you can be fearless.
1 Unit of Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws and Terminator Armour: 247
The previous unit would still bring the hurt to these Wolf Guard (Re-rolling both Hits and wounds, yes yes I know they would be smacking each other for hours with 2+ saves but examples dammit!)
Lets upgrade a unit to be same points:
5 unit of Chaos Terminators: 247
They now have Counter attack, Rage, and Furious charge, and still re-roll misses and have better Ld. And get +1 Combat resolution.

The inevitable argument would be that WG and Vanilla both get TH/SS.... Well Vanilla I'm not touching with a barge pole as it's horribly horribly broken. But WG? They cost 63 points a model for that load out. So power Axes could out number them 2:1, not great but TH/SS are always pointed at being evil. 20 attacks re-rolling misses and some will stick, and you can shoot them first. You could have 8 Tzeentch Terminators, 3 with Combi-Plasma and a Icon of Flame (or 3 more Combi-Plasma). Your causing a lot of saves, and you're saving on 4+ yourself, and have ranged versatility, they cannot pass 3+ saves forever and you can keep them at a distance.

Omegon
05-10-2012, 01:06
Plus some of your ideas are wrong, or are a wrong usage of the dragon.

Don't face the vendetta on a shooting contest. If you vector strike a vendetta you don't leave your rear exposed, because you can just stop right after it and it will have to move its 18" and won't be able to shoot you, and even in that case and with the flamer, since it has torrent you can place the template 12" away.

Does the 12" have to be in the forward fire arc? It seems you're implying it can be 12" in any direction (The Warp hunter just needs in within 12" of the muzzle I think any direction, is it lie that?) It would be nice. Vector strike then fire flame up the bum.

Fagerlund
05-10-2012, 01:13
Plus some of your ideas are wrong, or are a wrong usage of the dragon.

Don't face the vendetta on a shooting contest. If you vector strike a vendetta you don't leave your rear exposed, because you can just stop right after it and it will have to move its 18" and won't be able to shoot you, and even in that case and with the flamer, since it has torrent you can place the template 12" away.

You get 3 Hits, with do something on a 5+. So its average 1 Hoff and a max of 3. Remember, once per game, you can choose, to reroll the penetration rolls. And then you get to flame some other unit (or shoot if you go hades) meaning you can obliterate another unit with flamer of maybe damage a vehicle with hades

Then, that vendetta will do nothing to you due to you placement. Its true, yo won't be able to vector strike it again, but you can always vector strike another unit a flame yet another one, or get of the table and come back later vector striking again

Second, vector strike on a vendetta is 3 hits,



Sorry but no hovering for the dragon. Also, why would you want to hover? the only reason is for maneubravility, if not, there is not a real point

Actually you're the one being wrong. You can't use Daemonforge for Vector Strikes since Vector Strikes are made in the Movement Phase and Daemonforge is activated at either the Shooting Phase or the Assault Phase.

Also, Heldrakes are type: Vehicle (Flyer, Hover) so they can indeed Hover should they want to.

Dooks Dizzo
05-10-2012, 01:45
I might be in the minority but I am thinking Chaos Terminators are the best thing since sliced bread.

For 10 points less than 10 loyalist terminators you can have init 5 and feel no pain on a 10 man squad. Drop in a chain fist or two in case of walkers and you're golden.

I'll be bringing along Ahriman to infiltrate my terminators or outflank them. And why has no one pointed out Ahriman is mastery level 4? Seems like a solid option for psychic fire power in addition to my outflanking terminators.

This book is subtly very very powerful. With 2 force organizational charts unlocking 6 heavies you would put in 2 maulers, 2 forge fiends and a squad of flak missile havocs for just under 800 points. My infiltrating terminators (which are horribly durable) and maybe a big blob on infiltrating cultists give you a close threat while the maulers speed towards the enemy for a turn 2 charge while the fiends and the havocs drop buckets of fire on scary things like vindicators and such. Maybe a jugger lord to run up with them?

Lots of potential.

Kevlar
05-10-2012, 02:23
Sorry but no hovering for the dragon. Also, why would you want to hover? the only reason is for maneubravility, if not, there is not a real point

So you don't waste a turn flying off the board and can breath fire on some infantry blocks. The dragon is not a good air to air combat vehicle. It will do much more damage to ground targets.

Chem-Dog
05-10-2012, 03:11
Noise Marines can take Sonic Weapons that are Salvo 2/3 and have nothing to do with Land Raiders. :)

Thank you SO much. It wasn't so much the Landraider reference as the "Angry Stormbolter" bit, hard to live up to the name if you're not chucking out at least the same number of shots as one.

As it stands it seems we have flamer rifles. :/
Ignoring cover is so ghetto, Necrons get flipping Tesla and Noise Marines get "Ignores cover" *sigh*
Ah well, at least Doom Sirens are still sexy. They are still sexy right?[/panic]



Don't face the vendetta on a shooting contest. If you vector strike a vendetta you don't leave your rear exposed, because you can just stop right after it and it will have to move its 18" and ....

Worth pointing out the Vendetta can hover? Could just turn around and blast the dragon in ithe face with a trio of twinlinked Lascannons.


I might be in the minority but I am thinking Chaos Terminators are the best thing since sliced bread.

I dunno, Sliced Bread is pretty F@*#ing awesome ;)

The Satyr
05-10-2012, 03:24
Can someone post whats changed about Fabius or point me to a post that already did.

Daedalus81
05-10-2012, 04:01
Can someone post whats changed about Fabius or point me to a post that already did.

One CSM unit gets +1S and Fearless at no cost. Otherwise the only other change is +5 points.

OgreBattle
05-10-2012, 05:38
One CSM unit gets +1S and Fearless at no cost. Otherwise the only other change is +5 points.

Can Bikers take that upgrade? s5 hammer of wrath, s6 power lance attacks,

Man, those bikers are lovely at their price. Is there any HQ that enhances bikers/

Dubba07
05-10-2012, 05:59
Sonic Blasters are Noise Marine only weapons, they are Salvo 2/3 s4 AP5 ignore Cover. They have nothing to do with Land Raiders. Ever.

Dirge Casters are a Vehicle upgrade available to a few Vehicles (Hellbrutes cannot have them). any unit within 6" of a Dirge Caster CANNOT Overwatch, simple as that. They are dirt cheap at 5 pts, and frankly the look like they are intended to taken in combo on a vehicle while another unit assaults. I like the idea of them being on a Rhino that races alongside a unit of Fire Dragons just as they are about to be charge by a Maulerfiend. :- This is also a good example of what this codex does well, units working together. Spawn eat Overwatch and work well with charging units like Cultists. Warpsmiths buff your Vehicles. You can take super units in this addition but they cost a tonne.

Also on the note of the bitch fest for terminators; I was really angry about the change in load outs, but it makes sense. I had just made 10 models, and another 5 I had were metal. It took me 20 minutes to pull the arms off and reglue them to other models making them legal again. Now if it's converted to hell and thats not possible I feel your pain. Otherwise kindly stop trolling the thread.
Also, quick price comparison.
1 unit of 5 Vanilla Terminators with lightning claws: 200 pts
1 unit of 5 Chaos Terminators with Lightning claws and VoTW: 207
We're better in combat by a mile and have better Leadership. Ok no ATSKNF but tough, we don't get them, and for 25pts you can be fearless.
1 Unit of Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws and Terminator Armour: 247
The previous unit would still bring the hurt to these Wolf Guard (Re-rolling both Hits and wounds, yes yes I know they would be smacking each other for hours with 2+ saves but examples dammit!)
Lets upgrade a unit to be same points:
5 unit of Chaos Terminators: 247
They now have Counter attack, Rage, and Furious charge, and still re-roll misses and have better Ld. And get +1 Combat resolution.

The inevitable argument would be that WG and Vanilla both get TH/SS.... Well Vanilla I'm not touching with a barge pole as it's horribly horribly broken. But WG? They cost 63 points a model for that load out. So power Axes could out number them 2:1, not great but TH/SS are always pointed at being evil. 20 attacks re-rolling misses and some will stick, and you can shoot them first. You could have 8 Tzeentch Terminators, 3 with Combi-Plasma and a Icon of Flame (or 3 more Combi-Plasma). Your causing a lot of saves, and you're saving on 4+ yourself, and have ranged versatility, they cannot pass 3+ saves forever and you can keep them at a distance.

What is VotW? What does it do? I can't seem to find this anywhere.


Sent via FedEx

CrownAxe
05-10-2012, 06:05
Can Bikers take that upgrade? s5 hammer of wrath, s6 power lance attacks,

Man, those bikers are lovely at their price. Is there any HQ that enhances bikers/

No and no

Ssilmath
05-10-2012, 06:05
Veterans of the Long War. +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (I think)

Ohris
05-10-2012, 07:52
Do any of the chaos units have Night vision (or is it acute sences now)?

Night fighting for the first round is so common now that we need some illumination... Or are the only options to use vehicles to illuminate a target?

daboarder
05-10-2012, 08:02
WOW just reread the terminator entry


FOR FRAK SAKE!! you cannot take a combi weapon and an combat upgrade at the same time......fraking stupid

Rovient
05-10-2012, 08:16
WOW just reread the terminator entry


FOR FRAK SAKE!! you cannot take a combi weapon and an combat upgrade at the same time......fraking stupid

Oh god. I think you're right. Just read it myself. This is literally terrible. If true, it means every one of my terminators is now illegal. I love their paint job and am NOT ripping their arms off!

daboarder
05-10-2012, 08:20
not even that, it severely limits the utility of the unit,

you can either tool it for mediocre once a game shooting,

or tool it or combat with terrible shooting

whereas loyalists get,

decent shooting with solid combat,
terrifying CC
a mix of the 2 depending on codex (DA, GK)

HOLY *****!!!
THE burniing brand has TORRENT!....FARK thats not bad at all

Rovient
05-10-2012, 08:47
Hilariously, this recent discovery means that one of the terminator models in the codex photos is illegal now.

Ohris
05-10-2012, 08:54
Can only hope its a mistake and will be faqqed.

Omegon
05-10-2012, 09:23
VoLW is the +1 Ld and Hatred Space Marines yes.
I was playing around with some lists night and oh god the dakka Predator is good! for 95 points you get a heavy bolters and an autocannon; cheaper than anything else in the army. I experimented a little for a 1500pts list:

Dark Apostle with 3++ and mutation
Warpsmith with 4++ and mutation
hellbrute with Reaper and ML
Hellbrute with Plasma C and ML
10 CSM with 2 meltas, Rhino, CCWs, VotLW Champ with Mutation and Powerweapon
10 CSM with 2 meltas, Rhino, CCWs, VotLW Champ with Mutation and Powerweapon
35 Cultists with Autoguns,
x2 Preds with Heavy bolters and autocannon
1 pred with Lascannons all round (still a cheap/cheaper than havocs).

Anyone think this is viable? The Warpsmith stays with the Mech gunline repairing while the CSMs hit the flanks and the Apostle rocks up the centre with the Cultists. Lots of Dakka and some counter charge ability. What it lacks is decent Tarpitting (and I would never take this against necrons; only ones that could deal with that much armour)

On another note
After re-reading the Codex, I think it's main flaw is the same dam flaw that comes with all codixes; lack of proper proofreaders and not listening to testers. Don't get me wrong, I had an initial liking for the list and now I'm liking it more and more, but silly things like the Terminator options not being explicit (where I think they're kind of obvious where it's intended, they didn't want to go through explaining, again that you cannot have a combi bolter with lightning claws), or the Axe of blind fury that grants rage to those with rage....

This attitude isn't something limited to GW either (before the Chaos Trolls start again), I've worked for several companies that have a design process (one of which was a Financial Software company making programs for big businesses accounting and payroll) and bejeezus they made some doozy errors; said Financial company, one release they ignored us poor testers on lots of things and well.... C:CSM is a thing of perfect beauty that will give you a lap dance for free by comparison.
What I'm saying is get a grip, there are errors in the V1.0 release of everything. What is different between said software companies, is we can interpret, we can made logical conclusions as to why a writer did something like that. Chaos terminators options are for both Champs and termy's; why because they're both terminators and it would be stupid not to be and it's clearly what's intended. Axe of Blind Fury can be given the Khorne Daemon Princes, why? Because it grants rage and the only logical unit it can give that to is the Daemon Prince.

Stop looking for goddammed inconsistencies and stop Chaos Trolling the thread
Stop Whining that you're current army needs tweaking and stop Chaos Trolling the thread
Stop Crying at the keyboard; it's electrical and you will break it with your tears
Be constructive.

mattschuur
05-10-2012, 09:41
I can't believe any of the comments that Gw is moving codex's in a different direction until after Ward's first 6Ed book. If Ward writes a balanced and not overpowered codex, then fine. But up until now, that hasn't been the case.

Question: Does the Terminator weapon option change mean a terminator can't have a combi weapon and a powefist? Can only have a power weapon with a combi?

This book could have been good if they had done a few things differently. 1.) more Daemon weapons. The black mace will be the most common one, which is stupid. 2.) Reduced the cost of special weapons for Chaos marine squads. Not to space wolf level, but more like vanilla marines. Free flamers, 5 for meltas, 10 for plasmas. I can't wait to see the next Marine dex because I have a suspicion they'll get cheaper special weapons. 3.) Not made the heldrake, but an actual flyer. This thing is just ridiculous. Only could have been worse if it was a marine riding a pteradactyl. 4.) Possessed made sensible. Sadly doesn't seem to be the case. 5.) If what i heard is true (haven't fully read the book) that berserkers are now 1 A, this is just a kick in the nether regions. counter-attack does not make up for this. 6.) Oblits keep fearless. the rule on shooting doesn't bother me so much, especially after my orks took 3 turns of pounding from 6 plasma cannons. But a mutated, "daemonic" gun swiss army knife gets scared? Absurd, unless they actually have the daemon rule. 7.) no drop pods, no decent amount of infiltrate, I.E., no way to engage the enemy other than on foot or in rhino going forward. In a shooting edition where there are some armies you 'have' to engage early, just doesn't work.

However, the things I like: 1)Raptors points 2.) Havocs points 3.) bikers points (all 3 units are actually viable now.) 4.) the boons table. Sure you might get a redundant option, but it's very unlikely. However additional attacks, stats, rules and abilities is always good. 5.) Lords got cheaper. Less daemon weapons hurt this but there seem to be other options to compensate.

Things I'm meh about: 1.) Cultists. Just a bleh unit to hold objectives and no other non chaos unit entry to tie them more into the army. 2.) Skyfire missiles. are okay but still not all that effective against AV12. 3.) Interesting rules for Warpsmith and apostle, but not really 'great'. 4.) psychic powers. Sure we don't pay for them, but they just seem bleh. Although getting biomancy is pants. 5.) Warp talons. seem good against certain armies, but blind does nothing to help them against, I don't know, shooting from farther away. Could have been good, just average.

All in all the codex is average. There will be some good builds, but as someone else said, kelly just seemed overly cautious in writing it. Wish he'd have done that for space wolves.

Matt Schuur

daboarder
05-10-2012, 09:43
Question: Does the Terminator weapon option change mean a terminator can't have a combi weapon and a powefist? Can only have a power weapon with a combi?


That is EXACTLY what it means, and form the wording it was entirely intentional.

as to omegon:

dude there is ONE daemon weapon in the codex for non special characters (two if you play khorne)


that's trash

TheDungen
05-10-2012, 09:47
damn are we having a party cause someone sure brought a lot of whine. Nah but that said why do we always do this every time a codex or army book is released? All this whining how this screws over the players just cause they cant field exactly the same army as last edition. Maybe just maybe you folks should lower your expectations?

That said i also miss the old 3.5 dex. Mostly the way they used to do chosen, a unit of champions that could all access the chaos armoury and basically take anything. Or that chaos sorcerers wasn't separate entries form the lord and lieutenant just and upgrade.

But that doesn't mean i hate everything that's less than that. I can still do the same things, I can make a squad of chosen on demonic mounts and use them as bikers, i can use my chosen in TA as Terminators. I can Use my cult chosen (never was any cult terminators cause there wasn't a terminator entry in 3.5 mind you) as marked terminators and life goes on.

Judging every codex against what might be the best codex ever written is only going to lead to disappointment.

Scammel
05-10-2012, 10:02
dude there is ONE daemon weapon in the codex for non special characters (two if you play khorne)

You missed one, but it's not a particularly good one.


Judging every codex against what might be the best codex ever written is only going to lead to disappointment.

I couldn't care less about 3.5, but almost every codex in 5th saw considerable re-vamps, swathes of new fluff and cool special rules and plenty of powerful units. This book doesn't appear to be much more than a few tweaks in the right direction and not a huge amount else.

Shamana
05-10-2012, 10:07
1.) more Daemon weapons. The black mace will be the most common one, which is stupid. 2.) Reduced the cost of special weapons for Chaos marine squads. Not to space wolf level, but more like vanilla marines. Free flamers, 5 for meltas, 10 for plasmas. I can't wait to see the next Marine dex because I have a suspicion they'll get cheaper special weapons. 3.) Not made the heldrake, but an actual flyer. This thing is just ridiculous. Only could have been worse if it was a marine riding a pteradactyl. 4.) Possessed made sensible. Sadly doesn't seem to be the case. 5.) If what i heard is true (haven't fully read the book) that berserkers are now 1 A, this is just a kick in the nether regions. counter-attack does not make up for this. 6.) Oblits keep fearless. the rule on shooting doesn't bother me so much, especially after my orks took 3 turns of pounding from 6 plasma cannons. But a mutated, "daemonic" gun swiss army knife gets scared? Absurd, unless they actually have the daemon rule. 7.) no drop pods, no decent amount of infiltrate, I.E., no way to engage the enemy other than on foot or in rhino going forward. In a shooting edition where there are some armies you 'have' to engage early, just doesn't work.

1. Sure, that would be nice. I hope there may be a WD article with extra goodies, like how it added the Spinner for Eldar and the ork and sm fliers a while ago. This is also abo
2: Yes, vanilla marines pay 5 points less for a special weapon. I'm not sure though - aren't those points already included in the tactical squad cost, when you count the point cost of a model and a sarge?
3: Again, I'm hoping for WD to fix this as soon as they get a decent model.
4: Aren't possessed better now, though? I think they may be some of the harder-hitting units in their slot.
5: And the difference between berserkers and death company grows. I wonder if DC will get the nerfbat to be about on par with berserkers again - 6E turned their weakness (rage) into a bonus, and now 'zerks are weaker? The point cost drop does not make up for it, imo.
6: True, fearless on obliterators makes sense. I'm afb, but I think they are daemons now. However, I'm not sure that gives them fearless by default - iirc it only means 5++ and causing fear?
7: Yes, the movement options do seem a bit poor. I never got why CSM don't get drop pods when regular ones do. I could understand them being mutated, different etc but they should either have "chaosified" versions or something new. Now pretty much every army has access to fast or DSing transports, even the Guard - why not CSM?

Ohris
05-10-2012, 10:08
Im also a bit worried that oblits might easily run away from the field because of the loss of fearless and ld only 8...
But then I remember hearing that they might be demons now and that gives the fearless rule does it not?


So are obliterators Demons? I think I heard someone say, they dont have 5+ inv save listed BUT that they are demons so they get it from that.

Rovient
05-10-2012, 10:08
[QUOTE=Scammel;6452792]You missed one, but it's not a particularly good one.

If you're talking about the Murder Sword, look again. It's not a Daemon weapon.

Kevlar
05-10-2012, 10:08
I love how the people who don't own the army like to chime in when they don't have any models ruined by the new rules. Especially $10 a miniature models like terminators. There was absolutely no reason to do what they did to chaos terminators. Take away homers, take away weapon options, make them more expensive. Luckily all mine are magnetized but they will see a lot less use than I had hoped for. Demon princes and defilers are wrecked too. So that is about half of the old units I used to field that won't see the light of day any more.

No more 3x3 terminators with reaper, chain fist, combi-meltas.

No more 2x lash princes.

No more defiler, guess its all obliterators now instead of 6 oblits and defiler.

Lucky for me I have lots of old demons to use as allies. The ones they screwed me out of using last edition. So I won't have to buy too many new models. I can just ally in my bloodthirster, flamers, bloodletters, and screamers. Oh and use my old CSM prince as an allied heavy support prince.

Scammel
05-10-2012, 10:18
If you're talking about the Murder Sword, look again. It's not a Daemon weapon.

Well roger me sideways, you're right. That's downright odd considering how Kelly expouses the virtues of DWs in the latest WD battle report. Surely this can't be it, surely they'll do a couple more in WD or somesuch?

Murphey
05-10-2012, 10:20
Plus some of your ideas are wrong, or are a wrong usage of the dragon.

Don't face the vendetta on a shooting contest. If you vector strike a vendetta you don't leave your rear exposed, because you can just stop right after it and it will have to move its 18" and won't be able to shoot you, and even in that case and with the flamer, since it has torrent you can place the template 12" away.

It's very hard to not face a unit in a shooting contest when it has 36 inches of movement and 48 inch range on top of that. That statement, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense. That's like saying "Just dont be in range of the tau railguns!" which is an impossibility for all intents and purposes. Also, you're assuming that the vendetta (or it's squadron) won't just hover and shoot you in the tail when you pull that maneuver, and that's further assuming that all the angles line up well enough for you to turn enough degrees to vector strike over them, have the distance, wont go off the board for certain, etc.

Also, in the case of the flamer, you're still restricted by your fire arc, which is only 45 degrees.



You get 3 Hits, with do something on a 5+. So its average 1 Hoff and a max of 3. Remember, once per game, you can choose, to reroll the penetration rolls. And then you get to flame some other unit (or shoot if you go hades) meaning you can obliterate another unit with flamer of maybe damage a vehicle with hades
As others have pointed out, you cant use the forge ability on vector strikes. Also, I don't know what you're referring to with "you get 3 hits". If you mean vector strikes, you're incorrect. [Edit!] My mistake! I was stupidly calculating the averages as the average of 3, rather than the average of the discrete rolls. My applogies.

Str 7 vs 12 side armor = 33.33% chance of inflicting a hull point of damage. 2.7% chance of explode result. Totals, on average, come out to [Edit] 1 hull points of damage done per vector strike, and it requiring an average of 37 vector strikes to get one explodes result.

This little of a gain for exposing your 10 back armor to 3 twin linked lascannons is, tactically, ludicrous. All the opponent needs to do is go into hover and skyfire mode (assuming that he's relatively safe in doing so from ground fire), and fire at your back armor. Let's look at his numbers:

75% to hit. Str 9 vs 10 armor = 100% chance of hull point loss. 20.8% of an explodes result per shot. Total averages come out to be 2.25 hull points lost by the drake, and an average of 62.4 explodes results.

Once again, this would be a terrible tactical move unless you had several multi meltas (magically) directly below your opponents vendetta. And even then, even in that situation, he's still actually coming out ahead, because he just killed your 25% higher cost flyer at the expense of his own.



Then, that vendetta will do nothing to you due to you placement. Its true, yo won't be able to vector strike it again, but you can always vector strike another unit a flame yet another one, or get of the table and come back later vector striking again

Second, vector strike on a vendetta is 3 hits,



As above: It can destroy you via rear armor + hover, vector strike is ([Edit] You're correct, 3 hits on average), and even assuming that the vendetta, for some reason, doesn't decide to destroy you, it's lascannons are far better at a wide range of uses than the hades, and can affect the rest of your army far more destructively (on average) than your hades can do. And, once again, all for 25% cheaper, with a transport capacity, ability to do squadrons, and backed up by a, frankly, more powerful cadre of other units. (Imperial guard are nothing if not very point efficient; something that the current CSM codex very much lacks)

Edit: My mistake on the math. Insomnia has not been kind to the brain. I apologize for the mistake.

Scammel
05-10-2012, 10:24
vector strke is only 2.5 hits on average

Not sure I'm understanding this maths.

Murphey
05-10-2012, 10:24
Im also a bit worried that oblits might easily run away from the field because of the loss of fearless and ld only 8...
But then I remember hearing that they might be demons now and that gives the fearless rule does it not?


So are obliterators Demons? I think I heard someone say, they dont have 5+ inv save listed BUT that they are demons so they get it from that.

The good news: Oblits can be Ld 9 with VotLW.

The bad news: Nope, Demon rule does not grant fearless. I kind of strongly believe that Kelly, or whoever worked on certain units in this codex, assumed that the Demon special rule granted Fearless and Eternal Warrior, but of course they do not. Honestly, I'm at a loss to explain the lack of EW on demon princes without it being a massive oversight.

Rovient
05-10-2012, 10:25
The magical thing about that Artifacts page is it had an edge of RPG to it that I found very exciting! Thinking of the sword my lord uses as this Epic Loot he'd found on a quest that took his warband across the universe. To know that there's actually only 1 daemon weapon that isn't mark specific, and only about 6 artifacts in total? Shame. They could have come up with 10 or so (expensive) little items that have real flavour and interest.

"My lord may be a regular lord, but he wears the "Helm of Blood", a special piece or armour that..." You get the idea.

As it happens we're about to see endless lists featuring The Black Mace, basically. Unless you manage to get into B2B contact with the IC you choose it to focus on, the Murder sword is essentially a 30+ point power sword.

Murphey
05-10-2012, 10:25
Not sure I'm understanding this maths.

1 hit is guarenteed. average of a d3 roll is 1.5. So 1.5+1=2.5 :)

Athlan na Dyr
05-10-2012, 10:25
I can't believe any of the comments that Gw is moving codex's in a different direction until after Ward's first 6Ed book. If Ward writes a balanced and not overpowered codex, then fine. But up until now, that hasn't been the case.

Question: Does the Terminator weapon option change mean a terminator can't have a combi weapon and a powefist? Can only have a power weapon with a combi? yep. To elaborate, each terminator may pick one option. These options are replacing the power weapon with x, y or z, replacing the combi bolter with a combi-weapon or replacing both stock weapons with lightning claws

This book could have been good if they had done a few things differently.
1.) more Daemon weapons. The black mace will be the most common one, which is stupid. I may be alone, but I don't mind the Murder Sword. Its a bit cheaper than the Mace, still does a number on Power Armour (unlike the mace :shifty:) and if you're intelligent with its use it can be a nice, striking-on-initiative solution to anything and everything you care to name (be it paladins, Nobs or other obnoxious, FnP, multi-wound models :)). I do agree that an expanded set of options would have been nice
EDIT: Just realised the damn thing isn't a daemon weapon. Bugger
2.) Reduced the cost of special weapons for Chaos marine squads. Not to space wolf level, but more like vanilla marines. Free flamers, 5 for meltas, 10 for plasmas. I can't wait to see the next Marine dex because I have a suspicion they'll get cheaper special weapons. Eh, the basic CSM's get a lot of scope for specialising towards either shooting or CC. For me, the points I'll probably save by gearing the basic squads towards shooting or CC would save me more points than that anyway. Would be nice though
3.) Not made the heldrake, but an actual flyer. This thing is just ridiculous. Only could have been worse if it was a marine riding a pteradactyl. DONT GIVE THEM IDEAS!!!!
4.) Possessed made sensible. Sadly doesn't seem to be the case.
5.) If what i heard is true (haven't fully read the book) that berserkers are now 1 A, this is just a kick in the nether regions. counter-attack does not make up for this. Agree. Whilst they got marginally cheaper, the points difference doesn't make up for the lower attacks (and hence losing 1/3 of their combat effectiveness)
6.) Oblits keep fearless. the rule on shooting doesn't bother me so much, especially after my orks took 3 turns of pounding from 6 plasma cannons. But a mutated, "daemonic" gun swiss army knife gets scared? Absurd, unless they actually have the daemon rule. They do have the daemonic rule. But I agree that running seems strange for a massive, heavily armoured warp monstrosity that could probably morph melta guns for eyes
7.) no drop pods, no decent amount of infiltrate, I.E., no way to engage the enemy other than on foot or in rhino going forward. In a shooting edition where there are some armies you 'have' to engage early, just doesn't work. agree

However, the things I like:
1.) Raptors points
2.) Havocs points
3.) bikers points (all 3 units are actually viable now.) Agree with all three above. Fast Attack seems to be much improved. Perhaps some mitigation of the lack of deployment options? I'm liking the look of Raptors and bikes especially.
4.) the boons table. Sure you might get a redundant option, but it's very unlikely. However additional attacks, stats, rules and abilities is always good. I dislike the 'must challenge' thing. Still, mandatory champs mean that it will be reasonably simple to keep Lords out of challenges (and hence spawndom/ princedom if you don't want that [especially for SC's])
5.) Lords got cheaper. Less daemon weapons hurt this but there seem to be other options to compensate.

Things I'm meh about:
1.) Cultists. Just a bleh unit to hold objectives and no other non chaos unit entry to tie them more into the army. They're a cheap meatshield and supplement to the main focus of the book (the CSM). It would be weird if they suddenly had three entries to themselves.
2.) Skyfire missiles. are okay but still not all that effective against AV12. Agreed! They are doubly effective than autocannons, yet cost a lot more, and lack mobility whilst using them (and are hence easier to avoid). Autocannons seem to be the best option for multi-tasking whilst maintaining some anti-flyer firepower
3.) Interesting rules for Warpsmith and apostle, but not really 'great'.
4.) psychic powers. Sure we don't pay for them, but they just seem bleh. Although getting biomancy is pants.
5.) Warp talons. seem good against certain armies, but blind does nothing to help them against, I don't know, shooting from farther away. Could have been good, just average.

All in all the codex is average. There will be some good builds, but as someone else said, kelly just seemed overly cautious in writing it. Wish he'd have done that for space wolves. His codecii and army books generally aren't pushing the balance boundaries in the way some of Ward's do (of note are Fantasy Daemons in 7th. Nothing in either system can hold a candle to the sort of crap they were able to pull, though edition change removed a lot of that). Obviously he has had some screamers (Flying circus Eldar, Space Wolves) but in general they are not abominations of power creep. His recent Vampire Book is amazing in this regard.

Matt Schuur

Responses in Red above. For the most part I agree with you.

Codex itself doesn't seem to be bad, a little lacking in character and options in a few areas, but solid enough and with enough of a scope to be enjoyable.

Scammel
05-10-2012, 10:29
average of a d3 roll is 1.5

I'm pretty sure it isn't? :confused: You get either a 1, 2 or 3. Add together, divide by 3 = 2, surely?

Latro_
05-10-2012, 10:32
Wow well spotted on the termie thing! glad i never bought any of the new ones and my old metal ones have not seen the light of day in over 12 years.

That really messes up a lot lists i'v seen over the years on WS, damn!

You cant even take three anymore and take a heavy wep, has to be 5.

At least the marks work out cheaper and the icons open up some new possiblites but yea, over all no thanks!

Best build i can think of on the face of it would be CC orientated with lighting claws a chainfist, heavy flamer and MoK, 5 with just LCs and MoK workout at 207 pts and charge in with 25! power weapon attacks re-rollin to wound. Again its bittersweet though as the loyalist version gets 5 less attacks but overall 7pts cheaper and get ATSKNF and can get TH/SS for free - a codex witten actual years ago

Murphey
05-10-2012, 10:36
I'm pretty sure it isn't? :confused: You get either a 1, 2 or 3. Add together, divide by 3 = 2, surely?

There is the possibility that my insomnia has killed the math center of my brain, so you might be right. If so, I apologize.

Edit: Yeah, you're right. I was foolishly calculating dice rolls like they were non-discrete numbers. my mistake. Time to go fix an above post!

Rovient
05-10-2012, 10:38
You cant even take three anymore and take a heavy wep, has to be 5.

Oh FFS, you're right. Today just gets better and better!

Scammel
05-10-2012, 10:44
Whilst it's very sucky that some options have been removed outright (part of me thinks this might be FAQ'd), did anybody really think Termies weren't going to take a hit of some sort with the steer towards non-AP2 power weapons? TDA is a very good thing to be wearing this edition. As long as it's consistently upheld, I'm fine to see it get a slight rebalance.

sayles78
05-10-2012, 10:48
Well, not a BAD dex by any means, but still lacks a lot of the feel we all expect from a Chaos dex. A lot of stuff just does not make sense and that is a HUGE let down. A few things:

1. When you use a Daemon Prince (space marine possessed by a daemon) it HAS to be dedicated to one of the 4 gods, which is fine. However, the Daemon Engines in the codex (Vehicles possessed by a dameon) CANNOT be dedicated to any god. That is somewhat of a contradiction. Also same for Hellbrutes. And no daemonic possession for dreadnoughts either. Even if the gaming effect was very small, we all know this would FEEL a lot better for fluffy lists.

2. Terminators. No Cult Terminatoors for one. Also, as mentioned in above posts, can only select one upgrade, either a gun OR a close combat weapon.

3. Icon of nurgle does not give Feel No Pain, but Icon of Slaanesh does. Just doesn't feel right.

4. Nowhere near enough artefacts. And nowhere near enough daemon weapons. And what the hell is with no Nurgle or Slaanesh DW's? Go figure.

5. Psychic Power disciplines are too small. And, Tzeentch one is nowhere near good enough. 4 powers per god (only 3 to randomly choose) is a bit lame. Could they not be arsed to come up with 6 + signature power like the one's in the BRB?

6. Special Characters have barley changed! I don't expect them to be RADICALLY different, but my god. They are almost carbon copies. Just seems, again, like they couldn't be arsed.

7. The fact that Abaddon / Typhus / Ahriman - very expensive characters, have a fairly decent chance to turn into a Spawn. Really? These guys have been around for 10,000 years +, but now, they will randomly turn into spawn (or DP's) once every few battles. If it was so easy to become spawn / princes, they would have done it 9,999 years ago.

I will make a list of things I like about the new Dex, and come back at ya!

Latro_
05-10-2012, 10:52
Whilst it's very sucky that some options have been removed outright (part of me thinks this might be FAQ'd), did anybody really think Termies weren't going to take a hit of some sort with the steer towards non-AP2 power weapons? TDA is a very good thing to be wearing this edition. As long as it's consistently upheld, I'm fine to see it get a slight rebalance.

Yea obv Mat Ward didnt get the regular 6th ed development memos when he was beavering away on the Paladins etc

Murphey
05-10-2012, 10:53
I personally actually like the limited spell list. (Although Tzeentch does, weirdly enough, suck as psychic powers now. Also, why do they not get some kind of bonus on psychic powers for MoT? Shouldn't it give you +1 mastery level or something?) The smaller list allows me to have a much better chance of nailing what I want on any given list, which is very important.

Although, for the life of me I can't understand why we're limited to only half powers from the gods table. I mean, would it really have been bad to be able to go pure Nurgle or something? Because, you know, no one in Chaos is prone to being obsessive about things like their areas of study or their gods or anything...

sayles78
05-10-2012, 10:56
Although, for the life of me I can't understand why we're limited to only half powers from the gods table. I mean, would it really have been bad to be able to go pure Nurgle or something? Because, you know, no one in Chaos is prone to being obsessive about things like their areas of study or their gods or anything...

Jesus - I never noticed that! Just re-read it, and by heck you're right. What were they thinking?

Latro_
05-10-2012, 11:00
I had a look at the powers lash night and for me the Slannesh lore seems pretty decent, esp the primis powers! 24" s4 ap4, I test or ws1 bs1 and concussive!

I think in general it is very clear now that taking a CSM army involves selecting from a range of Marks for your units, may urk some fluffwise but for me i'm just gonna paint them how i like take the mark i want and explain it with my own fluff! oh yea my Tzeentch themed army's sorcerer has the mark of slannesh... tzeentch makes him filicker in an out of time and space hence the I5...

Latro_
05-10-2012, 11:03
Jesus - I never noticed that! Just re-read it, and by heck you're right. What were they thinking?

Obv didnt want a lvl3 to grantee having all the spells in that lore and in doing so keep some of the random nature of it.

Murphey
05-10-2012, 11:10
I had a look at the powers lash night and for me the Slannesh lore seems pretty decent, esp the primis powers! 24" s4 ap4, I test or ws1 bs1 and concussive!

I think in general it is very clear now that taking a CSM army involves selecting from a range of Marks for your units, may urk some fluffwise but for me i'm just gonna paint them how i like take the mark i want and explain it with my own fluff! oh yea my Tzeentch themed army's sorcerer has the mark of slannesh... tzeentch makes him filicker in an out of time and space hence the I5...

See, that irks me. Not that you're doing it, personally, but that the codex represents things so badly that one has to seriously break theme in order to be competitive. I know people get a lot of crap for doing it, but I can honestly understand the frustration/draw that leads people to use Space Wolf rules for their Khornites, or something similar. There's a fine line of course, if your codex is perfectly viable, but not top tier, and you're codex jumping to try and get whatever edge you can; I think that's cheesy as hell.

But the fact that the God of Sorcery has such bad psychic powers compared to others that, in order to pull off something thematically appropriate in an already low powered codex, people have to jump the boat is just bad design.

duffybear1988
05-10-2012, 11:16
Hmmmm sounds like this chaos codex is as big a disappointment as the 6th edition rules set is.

Is the artwork in the book cool? Because that would be the only reason I would buy it now... at 30 I will probably still give it a miss.

Latro_
05-10-2012, 11:33
The problem with theme is its theme not the rules as a whole.

e.g. say grey hunters had this:
Mark of wulfen xpts a model - rage,counter attack
Wolf charms xpts a model - +1 inv save
Wolf legs xpts a model - +1 int
Fenris dragon scale armour xpts a model - +1 T

Same as CSM marks and in that context no one would go 'ooo thats unfluffy taking units with two types', in fact it enriches the fluff and conversion potential.

From a rules perspective one would 'assume' someone would take GH squads from all of these abilities to suit their army. THIS is how GW design chaos, they expect an army of variation because its possible within the fluff (chaotic nature) and therefore balance the rules.

But hang on lets say if the SW fluff had say a company that was renound for killing sea dragons (which they dont) then folks would 'expect' if you painted them like that (say they had a green hue) that your army would be made up of models with those abilities. But different companies can find along side each other right? like chaos... but you want your army to look consistent but kick face what then...

Its the path they have to walk to try an represent so much variation but allow for all that variation to be taken all at once. Therefore taking one one type of unit will always in this scope potentially limit you.

The difference with the SW example is that they encompass the same variation but fluffwise as they are one chapter with a common theme it is ok to take anything with anything fluffily (with some expections ofc).

Murphey
05-10-2012, 11:46
One thing that still is frustrating me is that demon princes do not get access to the Boon of Mutation table for killing enemy champions. Yes, I understand why they didn't give them champion of chaos, because people would have been able to just challenge him repeatedly, forcing him to accept, and ultimately bog him down with a very lame tactic that made no sense. But, they literally spelled out an entire new system for his marks (For reasons I don't honestly understand, since the benefits for them seem fairly weak in general), why couldn't they just give him:

Chaos Vassal: Demon Princes are above the petty insults and taunts of lesser creatures, and have no need to clamor for the adulation of their god like other Chaos Space Marines must.

Demon Princes have the Champions of Chaos special rule, except they need not accept or submit challenges whenever possible. Furthermore, ignore and reroll any Dark Apotheosis or Spawnhood results they receive on the Chaos Boon table.

Bam, done. It would fix the problem with them not benefiting from duels, when they are tailor made for duels (excepting the lack of EW, which they should also have, honestly)

I also am annoyed that they are apparently base Ld 8, which makes zero sense to me. As it stands, they can virtually never by my warlord because, you know, I also have any other HQ in my army.

Latro_
05-10-2012, 11:52
Well the think with the DP boon is that a DP has reached the pinicle of chaos gifts, hes now an imortal chamption of choas with nothing left to prove. hes not really looking for the favour of the gods anymore to gift him becasue they'v given him the ultimate gift already. I kinda see the boon as what a champion gets over the course of his path which end in him reaching daemonhood or spawndom! both of which are actually on the table!

I also think the deliberate warlord thing was to reprsent the trancendant nature of a DP. He'd care little for directly commanding his former underlings and leave that chore to those lower than him. Its kinda like the prince in the ADB NL novels or the daemon prince primarchs in the core fluff, they rarely bother with the affairs of troops management etc, they just comeout one day to punch face for their own ends.

A bit like the new necron ctan fluff but the inverse in that DPs are 'da bas' not a slave to the army.

Thats not to say he woudlent take that leader role if he had to, its he'd rather let the mortals get on with it given half a chance. Its also not to say they 'dont care' the surely direct their leiutentants and punish them (badly!) for failure, but its like any business management structure, they are the CEO makings global decisions (all 10k marines in the warband are gonna go attack that planet, go make it happen) not (attack that bridge) (take that trench) etc etc

ofc this is all 'fluff' and what i think GW was doing with the DP, GW in general designs like this with rules:
Model first (what he looks like etc)
then fluff (some overlap with the above)
then everything else (the actual rules and how said model fits in with them)

they all overlap but thats the priority they design to

sayles78
05-10-2012, 11:52
One thing that still is frustrating me is that demon princes do not get access to the Boon of Mutation table for killing enemy champions. Yes, I understand why they didn't give them champion of chaos, because people would have been able to just challenge him repeatedly, forcing him to accept, and ultimately bog him down with a very lame tactic that made no sense. But, they literally spelled out an entire new system for his marks (For reasons I don't honestly understand, since the benefits for them seem fairly weak in general), why couldn't they just give him:

Chaos Vassal: Demon Princes are above the petty insults and taunts of lesser creatures, and have no need to clamor for the adulation of their god like other Chaos Space Marines must.

Demon Princes have the Champions of Chaos special rule, except they need not accept or submit challenges whenever possible. Furthermore, ignore and reroll any Dark Apotheosis or Spawnhood results they receive on the Chaos Boon table.

Bam, done. It would fix the problem with them not benefiting from duels, when they are tailor made for duels (excepting the lack of EW, which they should also have, honestly)

I also am annoyed that they are apparently base Ld 8, which makes zero sense to me. As it stands, they can virtually never by my warlord because, you know, I also have any other HQ in my army.

LD 9.

It wont stop him getting bogged down - people can challenge him anwyas. He either accepts, or doesn't get to fight.

Denny
05-10-2012, 11:56
One thing that still is frustrating me is that demon princes do not get access to the Boon of Mutation table for killing enemy champions.

The boon of mutation represents the gods giving gifts to their followers, and there is no higher gift than daemonhood.
No subsequent gift would hold any meaning.

Ohris
05-10-2012, 11:57
Grey knights eat demon princes for breakfast... its what they do :D
No biggie for them...

sayles78
05-10-2012, 11:57
The boon of mutation represents the gods giving gifts to their followers, and there is no higher gift than daemonhood.
No subsequent gift would hold any meaning.

I dunno - I imagine Eternal Warrior would mean a fair bit to him/her.