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Poseidal
04-10-2012, 16:02
Just as the Orks are sort of the barbarians at the gates of civilisation now (in a manner), did the Necrontyr (or were they Necron by then?) regard the Eldar as similar? (as they would be, in comparison, a collection of barbarian tribes with primitive technology; the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

Palvinore
04-10-2012, 16:27
Except with the use of psychic powers, the seemingly primitive can end up doing things that would seem impossible. Witchblades and Singing Spears piercing advanced armor alloys, psychic heavy flamers from the palm of one's hand (Destructor), and other weirdness.

blackcherry
04-10-2012, 17:00
I tend to view the Eldars view of their war in heaven as more allegorical than literal. So perhaps they were fighting with more primitive weapons than they possess now, but they weren't fighting a galactic war using actual spears and swords and nothing else.

As much as 40k doesn't make perfect sense, its not that stupid.

Firaxin
04-10-2012, 18:01
Not necessarily. Don't forget they were created (partly) as warrior-fodder for the Old Ones, and that the Old Ones were like Gods to them. Their perspective wouldn't be that much different from crusaders (pick one) fighting the infidels (pick one) in our history--the main difference being they travel to battle through these shimmering portals created by their Gods. Heck, it's even feasible the Eldar weren't even initially aware they were leaving their homeworld when they would go off to battle, the same way Columbus thought he was landing in India/Asia.

In the end though, the primitiveness of Eldar weaponry isn't at issue; a more accurate description of the time period would be that the necrontyr were the barbarians at the Old Ones' gates.

Horus38
04-10-2012, 19:11
I tend to view the Eldars view of their war in heaven as more allegorical than literal.

This. Although there are mentions of Eldar heroes fighting with swords, there's also "wraith-knights" created by Vaul (I picture proto-wraithlords) which use soul fire to burn wave after wave of necontyr constructs.

Still Standing
04-10-2012, 19:13
Sometimes the Barbarians cause such a fuss that the universe itself decides to eat you all...

Lord Damocles
04-10-2012, 20:03
Given most of the quotes we have from Necrons on the various Young Races, they seem to view pretty much everything which isn't Necron(tyr) as inferior at best, and simple animals at worst.

To be fair, they often have a point.

Still Standing
04-10-2012, 20:04
To be far, so do the Eldar, Humans, Tyranids and Daemons too. Basically the only race who don't look down their noses at aliens are the Orks.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-10-2012, 20:10
I don't think there are any direct quotes that relate to the way the necrontry viewed the eldar. I think it is likely that they viewed them as fools. During the war in heaven the eldar, orks and other subject races seem to be used as pawns in the war. There's nothing stating that these races were anything more than living weapons to the old ones.


In the end though, the primitiveness of Eldar weaponry isn't at issue; a more accurate description of the time period would be that the necrontyr were the barbarians at the Old Ones' gates.

Hardly. The necrontyr were masters of technology and were able to outdo the old ones in a straight up fight. The sticking point in the war in heaven was the webway which gave the old ones superior mobility and allowed the too retreat and hide without reprisal until the C'Tan and necrons broke in. Perhaps the old ones viewed the necrontyr as cultural barbarians, but that is a bit of stretch given that we know next to nothing about their culture aside from the mortuary cult aspect.

Still Standing
04-10-2012, 20:22
As I understood it the Old Ones almost destroyed the Necrontyr, but then they discovered the C'tan and Necroned themselves (doesn't matter how or why). Despite some initial victories the Old Ones were beating the Necrons again until the Enslaver plague all but wiped the Old Ones out and forced the Necrons into hibernation.

Lord Damocles
04-10-2012, 20:28
As I understood it the Old Ones almost destroyed the Necrontyr, but then they discovered the C'tan and Necroned themselves (doesn't matter how or why). Despite some initial victories the Old Ones were beating the Necrons again until the Enslaver plague all but wiped the Old Ones out and forced the Necrons into hibernation.
The Old Ones basically defeated the Necrontyr but chose not to wipe them out.
The Necrontyr encountered the C'tan and became the Necrons.
The Necrons/C'tan all but wipe out the Old Ones and the Young Races. They rule the galaxy for an unspecified - but long - time.
Eventually the Old Ones create highly psychic races in desperation. These races push the Necrons/C'tan back. (This is where all of the Eldar (+gods) battles fit in)
The Enslaver plague happens and everyone loses.

At some point the Necrons now defeat the C'tan as well. This could fit between stages three and four and the old and new continuities coexist fairly happily together.

Firaxin
05-10-2012, 01:14
Hardly. The necrontyr were masters of technology and were able to outdo the old ones in a straight up fight. The sticking point in the war in heaven was the webway which gave the old ones superior mobility and allowed the too retreat and hide without reprisal until the C'Tan and necrons broke in. Perhaps the old ones viewed the necrontyr as cultural barbarians, but that is a bit of stretch given that we know next to nothing about their culture aside from the mortuary cult aspect.
So by your own description, the steps were a) the Old Ones built galaxy-spanning infrastructure, b) the necrontyr arrive and attack the Old Ones, forcing them to garrison themselves in the safest sections of this infrastructure, c) the C'tan/Necrons 'broke in.'

And yet somehow that's NOT the necrontyr at the Old Ones' gates? :eyebrows:

Stonerhino
05-10-2012, 01:31
It was the Necrontyr who had the galaxy spanning empire and picked a fight with the Old Ones because they wanted to stop infighting. The new codex lays that out pretty clear. The Old codex has the Necrontyr more technologically adavnced then the Old Ones before finding the C'Tan.

Meaning that in the existing fluff the Necrontyr were never the "Barbarian" because they always have had the technological edge.

Edit:
We don't however know that the Necrontyr never fought against another more technologically advanced race that had superior tech. We just know that if it did happen, it has not been talked about yet.

Firaxin
05-10-2012, 02:52
Gah, curse you Newcrons!

But don't we definitively know the Old Ones were the first sentient race in the galaxy? At some point the necrontyr had to be the fledgling new kids on the block.

Stonerhino
05-10-2012, 04:43
Not really the "New kid". Just the "Slower expanding kid". And given the difference in intersteller travel. The Necrontyr, had to have a huge head start to be a galactic power at the time of the first war.

TheDungen
05-10-2012, 09:11
does it matter if the necrons had better stuff the old ones still won, its like saying hey i have better weapons based on newtonian physics when you opponent shows up with the a bomb. the old ones might not have understood the dimensions they worked with as thoroughly as the necrotyr did their but on the other hand they worked with more dimensions than the necrotyr ever knew existed. The necrotyr had better more well crafted stuff but the old ones werent playing the same game, so it didnt really matter.

Techonlogy is just the study of how to do things. Which means its a matter of knowledge, the old ones knew things the necrotyr didn't thus they were more advanced.

The c'tan on the other hand saw the old ones weakness that they were few and that every old one that fell in battle could not easily be replaced, so they made the necrotyr into necrons so they could be made and remade indefinitely and thus slowly win a war of attrition against the old ones. When the old ones realised the momentum was going agaisn tthem they did what the c'tan had done. they created a servant race that had the same skill with the warp but were far more numerous than the old ones allowing them to take casualties that the old ones could not afford.

I cna imagine the eldar fought with spears and swords and magic armour. Or at least that is what it would've seemed to them. All magic is really only magic until you understand how it works and at this point the old ones knew how the warp worked (pre chaos) so to them it was techonlogy (possibly far more advanced than the current eldar of dark eldar technology), but to the eldar it was simply the magic of their gods.

and when the old ones passed away they took up residence in the warp where they existed until the comming of slaanesh killed them.

Well at least that's my interpretation.

Lord Damocles
05-10-2012, 09:55
Techonlogy is just the study of how to do things. Which means its a matter of knowledge, the old ones knew things the necrotyr didn't thus they were more advanced.
Lets not go here again. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?341338-Which-Race-Was-The-Most-Technologically-Advanced-At-Their-Peak&highlight=advanced)

Tonberry
05-10-2012, 10:29
the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

Hey, this is the 41st Millenium, where hitting someone with your gun is usually more effective than firing it at them anyway.

TheDungen
05-10-2012, 11:40
ha Tonberry havent you played inquisitor, space marine kills people easier by throwing their bolters at them than firing them =P

Sorry Damocles but the emperor was right, there are no gods and there is no magic. Its all about failure to understand.

Poseidal
05-10-2012, 22:37
The reason I thought of it was I got the impression from when the Necrons began their sleep in the new codex.

Kakapo42
05-10-2012, 23:30
the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

They were however very advanced high-tech spears and javelins, not so much the kind of pole-arms you're used to, but energy/laser/power/phase spears that skewered through reality to get at enemies in cover, or mind-seeking laser-guided warp-travelling javelins with dark-matter implosion warheads. Or something like that. They also had the support of early wraith-constructs and the Talismans of Vaul.

Stonerhino
06-10-2012, 00:12
Techonlogy is just the study of how to do things. Which means its a matter of knowledge, the old ones knew things the necrotyr didn't thus they were more advanced.That's fine believe that if you wish. It does not change:


[Snip]The Necrontyr could never win. Their superior technology was constantly outmanoeuvred by the Old Ones thanks to their mastery of the webway portals.So by your own ideas of what counts as technonlogy the Necrontyr were still superior. The Old Ones just a faster means of transportation.

Poseidal
06-10-2012, 06:42
I'm not sure they would have had high tech spears at the beginning. I get the impression the Eldar were young during the Necron domination, which was after they did the bio transference. They likely developed from primitive savages to a space-faring race during the time of the conflict. They would have been used by their 'allies' in the old ones early on but eventually developed over time.

Lord Damocles
06-10-2012, 08:09
Copy/Paste (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?341338-Which-Race-Was-The-Most-Technologically-Advanced-At-Their-Peak&p=6225252&viewfull=1#post6225252):

According to Inquisitor Horst recounting the tale of how the Eldar fought against the Void Dragon during the War in Heaven - 'These events occured aeons before the Eldar had mastered such things [plasma weaponry]. They fought with swords, spears and their own twisted version of faith. And it was found wanting' ('The Cripple and the Dragon' in 'Translations of Pretinent Eldar Mythic Cycles', in White Dwarf 273, pg.29).

Of course, they 'cheated' somewhat in the account, with their god(s) granting them access to the Talismans of Vaul, Swords of Khaine, and [presumed] wraith technology.


The Eldar didn't spend the whole of the War in Heaven with such a technology level though - the description of Zapennec (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.16) shows that the Eldar had a sizeable fleet towards the end of the War, and 'Kal Jericho: Above and Beyond' in Warhammer Monthly #67 features a picture of War in Heaven -era Eldar wearing armour and wielding weapons which don't look too dissimilar to 'present day' kit (although the image might not be accurate; it could be Inquisitor Orechiel's imaginings of the scene).

Palvinore
06-10-2012, 08:40
Copy/Paste (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?341338-Which-Race-Was-The-Most-Technologically-Advanced-At-Their-Peak&p=6225252&viewfull=1#post6225252):

According to Inquisitor Horst recounting the tale of how the Eldar fought against the Void Dragon during the War in Heaven - 'These events occured aeons before the Eldar had mastered such things [plasma weaponry]. They fought with swords, spears and their own twisted version of faith. And it was found wanting' ('The Cripple and the Dragon' in 'Translations of Pretinent Eldar Mythic Cycles', in White Dwarf 273, pg.29).

Of course, they 'cheated' somewhat in the account, with their god(s) granting them access to the Talismans of Vaul, Swords of Khaine, and [presumed] wraith technology.

The Eldar didn't spend the whole of the War in Heaven with such a technology level though - the description of Zapennec (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.16) shows that the Eldar had a sizeable fleet towards the end of the War, and 'Kal Jericho: Above and Beyond' in Warhammer Monthly #67 features a picture of War in Heaven -era Eldar wearing armour and wielding weapons which don't look too dissimilar to 'present day' kit (although the image might not be accurate; it could be Inquisitor Orechiel's imaginings of the scene).

Got a picture of that by any chance?

Lord Damocles
06-10-2012, 18:55
As a matter of fact, I do.

From Warhammer Monthly #67

(I don't know if the cropped version will make them any clearer)

malika
06-10-2012, 18:58
Just as the Orks are sort of the barbarians at the gates of civilisation now (in a manner), did the Necrontyr (or were they Necron by then?) regard the Eldar as similar? (as they would be, in comparison, a collection of barbarian tribes with primitive technology; the early Eldar fought them with spears and javalins didn't they?)

The concept of barbarians at the gates might be fitting, but note that barbarians aren't always savages. The ones who were about to invade Rome were quite civilized, it's just that the Roman depicted them as savages.

Stonerhino
06-10-2012, 21:13
True but they had an "Inferior1" civilization. Except for maybe Carthage and Greece.

1: By "inferior" I mean less advanced technology, socially, culturally and application of knowledge. For example having the knowledge of how to build a paved road is worthless unless you actually make paved roads. At least at some point.

Which is why after the fall of Rome. The other cultures were unable to continue the advancements that Rome had. Literacy rate dropped to almost nothing, the construct all but stopped and the huge empire split apart (Just looking at the western empire). Bad leadership already had The Roman Empire falling apart.

Still Standing
07-10-2012, 11:51
It's quite well established and common knowledge that the Necrontyr were masters of the immaterium (i.e. technology), the Old Ones were masters of the matterium (i.e. psychics), and the Eldar are somewhat in between.

innerwolf
07-10-2012, 12:07
It's quite well established and common knowledge that the Necrontyr were masters of the immaterium (i.e. technology), the Old Ones were masters of the matterium (i.e. psychics), and the Eldar are somewhat in between.

Don't you mean the other way round? Inmaterium=psychics and "Materium"=technology?

Still Standing
07-10-2012, 13:24
Yes, yes I do. :)

TheDungen
07-10-2012, 21:35
which brings me back to the likeness with newtonian physics and relativistic physics.

Stonerhino
08-10-2012, 00:22
And the Necrontyr was still had superior "Technology".

Poseidal
08-10-2012, 17:35
I don't really like the separation of the two like that. The Warp is a naturally occurring phenomenon in the 40k universe, and is a pretty unified thing. I like that Mat Ward made the Necrons based around it more, relying on sleeper ships but the scale having a large empire makes no sense, when communication would take 1000 or so years when they are far apart; separate enclaves would have made more sense then.

Actually, if the Necrons (before the Burning one taught them Dolmen gates) used something like the Tau did from reverse engineering something a sleeper ship found to expand, that would be cool (with a sort of echoing impact).