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View Full Version : Are Blood Angels still a better World Eaters codex than the new Chaos codex?



OgreBattle
07-10-2012, 05:08
So there's a lot of hubbub about the new chaos 'dex not being good enough or abandoning the 9 legions.
With that being said, does that mean you can do a legion army better in a 'counts as' Loyalist codex?

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Grey Knights

Using these three as counts as, can you still form a better Legion army than the Chaos 6e codex?
World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and so on.

spaint2k
07-10-2012, 05:16
So there's a lot of hubbub about the new chaos 'dex not being good enough or abandoning the 9 legions.
With that being said, does that mean you can do a legion army better in a 'counts as' Loyalist codex?

Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Grey Knights

Using these three as counts as, can you still form a better Legion army than the Chaos 6e codex?
World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and so on.

I'm personally having a hard time making an interesting 1500 point berserker force from the new CSM codex. Ruleswise the berserkers are good enough I suppose, but the composition of the force is dull. I'd much rather use Space Wolves and see things like juggernaut riders (counts-as thunderwolves). I am not familiar enough with the other codices to know what I could do with those instead and as for the CSM codex I think I'm probably not thinking outside the box enough to figure out how to make it interesting for myself.

starlight
07-10-2012, 05:59
Black Templars and Dark Angels are also options...

Voss
07-10-2012, 06:25
I'm personally having a hard time making an interesting 1500 point berserker force from the new CSM codex. Ruleswise the berserkers are good enough I suppose, but the composition of the force is dull. I'd much rather use Space Wolves and see things like juggernaut riders (counts-as thunderwolves). I am not familiar enough with the other codices to know what I could do with those instead and as for the CSM codex I think I'm probably not thinking outside the box enough to figure out how to make it interesting for myself.
You could... use more than just berserkers. Contrary to the the impression the 3.5 codex established for no apparent reason, the legion (and followers of Khorne in general) are just frothing idiots that charge straight into guns- Khorne only cares that blood is spilled, the how is pretty irrelevant. Even if you don't want to pick up the daemon engines, there is a lot of stuff for the world eaters. Bikes, raptors, warp talons, traditional tanks, even havoc units, where the non-heavy weapon troops are packing pistol and axe, backed up by counter attack are pretty rock solid.

spaint2k
07-10-2012, 06:37
You could... use more than just berserkers. Contrary to the the impression the 3.5 codex established for no apparent reason, the legion (and followers of Khorne in general) are just frothing idiots that charge straight into guns- Khorne only cares that blood is spilled, the how is pretty irrelevant. Even if you don't want to pick up the daemon engines, there is a lot of stuff for the world eaters. Bikes, raptors, warp talons, traditional tanks, even havoc units, where the non-heavy weapon troops are packing pistol and axe, backed up by counter attack are pretty rock solid.

You make good points. I just have a collection of axe-wielding frothing madmen that I'd like to use and they're probably limiting me mentally in terms of what I can add.

magnum12
07-10-2012, 07:53
Off all the much demanded "cult terminators", the codex is pretty close when it comes to making World Eaters Terminators. With Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath, all that's missing is WS 5. 5 attacks on the charge when given Lightning Claws is just hateful (except on 2+).

Polaria
07-10-2012, 08:22
Off all the much demanded "cult terminators", the codex is pretty close when it comes to making World Eaters Terminators. With Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath, all that's missing is WS 5. 5 attacks on the charge when given Lightning Claws is just hateful (except on 2+).

I personally wouldn't even take Icon of Wrath. The icons can be sniped out of the unit so unless you have a very specific purpose in mind you are better off with just Marks.

As for "which makes the best World Eaters legion army" all I can say is: Forge World Horus Heresy part I - Betrayal. That book has the proper "legion" army lists. If you want to make 40k era World Eaters, then stick with Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You get much fluffier army than using some counts-as shenanigans and Codex Space Wolves.

blackcherry
07-10-2012, 09:02
Words fail me.

xxRavenxx
07-10-2012, 09:59
Words fail me.

I know. Everyone knows that GKs are the obvious choice to represent khorne bezerkers.

Power weapons to represent the deadly axes of khorne, and the powers represent their rage giving them strength. Its perfect.

OgreBattle
07-10-2012, 10:12
I know. Everyone knows that GKs are the obvious choice to represent Tzeentch Sorcerers.

Power weapons to represent the deadly force weapons, and the powers represent their brotherhood of sorcery. Its perfect.

Fixed it for you.

the_picto
07-10-2012, 10:30
I'm personally having a hard time making an interesting 1500 point berserker force from the new CSM codex. Ruleswise the berserkers are good enough I suppose, but the composition of the force is dull. I'd much rather use Space Wolves and see things like juggernaut riders (counts-as thunderwolves). I am not familiar enough with the other codices to know what I could do with those instead and as for the CSM codex I think I'm probably not thinking outside the box enough to figure out how to make it interesting for myself.

Not sure what wolves have that chaos marines don't. You can ally with daemons to get actual juggernaut riders, plus bloodthirsters, bloodletters and fleshhounds.

totgeboren
07-10-2012, 10:36
If I wanted to play a WE warband, I think I would at most include a single unit of 'Berzerkers'. Give them Chain axes and just say that they are especially loony World Eaters. The rest of my force, the Lord included, would be made up of CSM with the mark of Khorne. That way I would get much better consistency with the rules, plus a warband that is fun to field (special weapons, heavy weapons, jump packs, bikes, terminators, in addition to all the new daemon engines and allied Khorne Daemons, you name it).
I think I would do the same if I had a Death Guard army. Slaanesh and Tzeentch have it a bit worse, but a WE warband could be done without including a single unit of Berzerkers. It might even be more fun (and consistent) that way.

blackcherry
07-10-2012, 10:38
Or, you know, just use bikers. Juggers and their riders have a combined profile anyway, so its not as if you would be missing much and gaining a lot more.

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 10:57
Yes, of course.

The lists without access to Berzerkers, Kharn, Daemon allies, Terminators with Chaosy gear, Forgeworld Khornate daemon engines etc. are totally a better way to represent an army containg those things than the list(s) with them.

TK-421
07-10-2012, 12:13
Use the forgeworld heresy stuff then you get Angron as well

KharnTheBetrayer01
07-10-2012, 12:29
This again?

World Eaters are some of the easier legions to represent in the new codex. We have A Khornate Lord with a variety of options and the only god-exclusive daemon weapon in the book. If that's not Khornate enough for you, take Kharn. Because our HQ is dedicated to Khorne, we can take World Eaters as Troops, and they're insanely good at representing khornate Troops, or we can take Cultists, whom make superb bodies to "lead the charge" and get gunned down to a resounding "meh" from everyone else.

The Fast Attack is rather sparse, but we still have Raptors and Warp Talons, and of course Bikers, all of whom fit the "Lunatic speeding into the enemies face to slice them to pieces), most of whom can deep strike or else get up in the enemies face swiftly and shut down shooting helping your others get across the table. Hell, even the spawn are pretty good as caged beasts unleashed at the enemies face to spread the blood all across the battlefield.

As for heavy Support, if you can't see the Close Combat potential in our Heavy Support section (Maulerfiends and Defilers are both pretty hard in combat)

Elites... If I have to tell you why our elites section is fine for Khornate armies, then please go collect another army, it's clear nothing interests you except power-gaming.

And of course thats only using troops that focus on Combat. Khornate Troops are all about efficient, bloody killing (Compared to the more artistic killing of slanneshi troops), and if they can make someone pop like an overripe fruit from a distance with Autocannon fire, missiles or sheer weight of bolters, then they'll do that. a Havoc Squad with a Mark of Khorne is a nasty proposition in combat AND at range. Mutilators and Obliterators are people who are so obsessed with mastering the weapon that they've become the weapon.

If you're willing to use your imagination (A terrifying prospect for many these days), then everything in the book, including all the marks, icons and even sorcerers, can be used to great effect. Most Biomancy spells improve a units fighting prowess, which can be replicated with a "Blood Priest" and if your opponent allows it, selecting the first spell of the Tzeentchian lore let's someone take wound "Letting Blood" if you will, for a roll on the boon of chaos table, which is pretty damn Khornate. And then theres Slanneshi first spell, which buffs a unit with strength, initiative or attack... All of which have been khornate staples in the past.

Marks of Slannesh or Nurgle for those people so used to battle that they shrug off wounds that don't kill them outright. Marks of Tzeentch for those people so good at feeling the flow of battle they know when to dodge even the most deadly blows, Marks of Khorne for... you know, stabbing.

How is this NOT an amazing rulebook to represent a khornate force?

spaint2k
07-10-2012, 12:43
Or, you know, just use bikers. Juggers and their riders have a combined profile anyway, so its not as if you would be missing much and gaining a lot more.

There we go! That's a great idea and one I might follow up on. I should have thought of it myself.

sprugly
07-10-2012, 12:55
Not having the book yet, I can't really give comments of much worth, however...

As someone who has been playing a khorne (not berzerker or world eater) army for a while with the wolves book and is looking to switch to the "proper" codex I will miss the thunderwolves. None of the possible count as replacements (bikes or bloodcrushers) really have all that I was looking for.

Sprugly

bad dice
07-10-2012, 13:10
I think bloodangels would probebly make a better nightlords list.

Just get pods and assault marines and decent on the prey form above
But hey that's just what I think

Col. Dash
07-10-2012, 18:06
For a jump pack army/drop pod army, it fits the MO perfectly. For a customizable termy army, Space wolves is still better. I am still on the fence about buying the chaos codex since both of the others seem to do it far better and fluffier.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:11
World eaters are TERRIBLE under the new codex. Chaos has absolutely no way to deliver assault troops. Bikers and Raptors are okay but they aren't troops and compete for the same limited slots. You can't get your berzerkers, or even mark of khorne CSM into combat. So yes, blood angels would do a much better job representing them with drop pods, storm ravens, and DOA.


With chaos you slowly drive your berzerkers forward in their rhinos, wait two turns, and assault turn 3.

Wyrmwood
07-10-2012, 18:13
Can't Dreadclaw Assault Pods be used in conjunction with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, or am I misremembering?

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 18:18
With chaos you slowly drive your berzerkers forward in their rhinos, wait two turns, and assault turn 3.
You could take Land Raiders.

Or (shock, horror!) you could take units other than just Berzerkers and model/paint them appropriately to be World Eaters - Raptors, Warp Talons, Bikes, Daemons etc.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:18
Can't Dreadclaw Assault Pods be used in conjunction with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, or am I misremembering?

Not in any tournament I have ever been to.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:20
You could take Land Raiders.

Or (shock, horror!) you could take units other than just Berzerkers and model/paint them appropriately to be World Eaters - Raptors, Warp Talons, Bikes, Daemons etc.

Yes you can waste all your heavy support slots on worthless overcosted land raiders and have zero fire support.

You can take a max three units of non-scoring bikers or raptors or warp talons.

Or you can take blood angels and have deep striking dedicated transport land raiders, storm ravens, drop pods, and scoring assault marines.

sprugly
07-10-2012, 18:22
I don't personally there is a lack of delivery options for chaos. They don't get pods but that's the only difference between them and most loyalists. If you want the premium transport with assault ramp to really be safe then you have to pay for the raider like everyone (and its cheaper is it not?) Or with average rolls a rhino should be able to get you there by turn 2.

move 6 in the rhino, disembark 6, run d6 (3.5). Turn 2 move 6 charge 2d6 (average 9" with rerolls) a little over 30" on average rolls should get you to someone most of the time unless they're really hugging the back edge.

Sprugly

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 18:24
Or you can take blood angels and have deep striking dedicated transport land raiders, storm ravens, drop pods, and scoring assault marines.
Because if the World eaters are known for anything, it's deep striking Land raiders, Storm Ravens, and Drop Pod assaults.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:24
move 6 in the rhino, disembark 6, run d6 (3.5). Turn 2 move 6 charge 2d6 (average 9" with rerolls) a little over 30" on average rolls should get you to someone most of the time unless they're really hugging the back edge.

Sprugly

What if they are (surprisingly) moving away from you? (And shooting you?)

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:26
Because if the World eaters are known for anything, it's deep striking Land raiders, Storm Ravens, and Drop Pod assaults.

They are known for assaulting. Using a codex with no assault delivery systems for an assault based army is just stupid.

sprugly
07-10-2012, 18:33
What if they are (surprisingly) moving away from you? (And shooting you?)

It would be lovely if they didn't I know but my opponents never seem to sit still and do nothing when I want them to! Lol

In all seriousness, if they spend first few turns running from you like that a couple of cheap scoring units (cultists) will be able to take the objectives while they cower at the edge. Plus your faster support units (raptors and bikes) will be able to get to your opponents lines and hamper any retreats they plan.

It might not be as simple as having a special rule or 2 but they're hardly out of luck.

Sprugly

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 18:33
So it's not about better representing World Eaters at all; it's about Blood Angels being percieved as more powerful.

Got it :yes:

Wyrmwood
07-10-2012, 18:38
Not in any tournament I have ever been to.
In which case, would you kindly dispense with the idea that you're in it for the theme? If you just want to win, be honest and say it.


Because if the World eaters are known for anything, it's deep striking Land raiders, Storm Ravens, and Drop Pod assaults.
Not to mention copious amounts of Librarian Dreadnoughts :yes:

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:38
So it's not about better representing World Eaters at all; it's about Blood Angels being percieved as more powerful.

Got it :yes:

No, its about 6th edition boning assault based tactics in general. Having nothing to help deliver those assault units passed all the invincible fliers, overwatch, increased rapid fire range, tesla weapons, psybolt ammo, and new psychic powers means you are just going to get hosed.

Blood angels are one of the few codex lists that can reliably deliver scoring assault troops into battle. Sure, he could use the dark eldar or ork book, but that might look a little silly.

Col. Dash
07-10-2012, 18:44
No, its about having a fluffy themed army that is competitive. Sorry in the fluff chaos legions have plenty of access to drop pods, thunderhawks, Cestus Rams, and have likely stolen or salvaged storm eagles and ravens. There is no reason half of these shouldnt have been in the book. More than anything drop pods at a minimum should have been in the book before a stupid looking dragon thing.

blackcherry
07-10-2012, 18:59
They are known for assaulting. Using a codex with no assault delivery systems for an assault based army is just stupid.


But it does have an assault delivery system. More than that, the legions are known for not having as technologically advanced gear as loyalists. It seems you want a powerful army over an army that is perhaps slightly less powerful, but you know, is an actual World Eater force


No, its about having a fluffy themed army that is competitive. Sorry in the fluff chaos legions have plenty of access to drop pods, thunderhawks, Cestus Rams, and have likely stolen or salvaged storm eagles and ravens. There is no reason half of these shouldnt have been in the book. More than anything drop pods at a minimum should have been in the book before a stupid looking dragon thing.

Yeah, there is a reason. Its called game balance. But hey because its a faction you like, to hell with that :rolleyes:.

If people want chaos to have access to all the bits loyalists have with all the sparkly chaos stuff sprinkled on top it only strengthens the idea that there should just be one tome for types of Space Marine. Now wouldn't the internet love that.

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 19:08
From reading the web its apparent what is wanted are easy to use tactics and the ability to assault turn 2 like before.

Im glad that has died. Let it stay dead.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 19:18
I don't personally there is a lack of delivery options for chaos. They don't get pods but that's the only difference between them and most loyalists. If you want the premium transport with assault ramp to really be safe then you have to pay for the raider like everyone (and its cheaper is it not?) Or with average rolls a rhino should be able to get you there by turn 2.

move 6 in the rhino, disembark 6, run d6 (3.5). Turn 2 move 6 charge 2d6 (average 9" with rerolls) a little over 30" on average rolls should get you to someone most of the time unless they're really hugging the back edge.

Sprugly

you do know that there is a HUGE Diffrence between the cl raider and the assault landraiders in the loyalist book right

If they could take a redemer i think thy would not bee that pissed about it.
Also let me sum up the list of thing that loyalist get that chaos has not

1) teleporer homers
2) Scouts
3) scours on bikes
4) landraider options
5) drop pods

all of these give you options to get your assault troops there faster or to supress the enemys shooting fro them to get there in a better shape

Maidel
07-10-2012, 19:20
Are we really complaining that chaos doesn't get SCOUTS??

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 19:21
...complaining... chaos...
Seems about right :shifty:

Clarkson
07-10-2012, 19:21
From reading the web its apparent what is wanted are easy to use tactics and the ability to assault turn 2 like before.

Im glad that has died. Let it stay dead.

or turn 1 if you are smart :P

Clarkson
07-10-2012, 19:27
you do know that there is a HUGE Diffrence between the cl raider and the assault landraiders in the loyalist book right

If they could take a redemer i think thy would not bee that pissed about it.
Also let me sum up the list of thing that loyalist get that chaos has not

1) teleporer homers
2) Scouts
3) scours on bikes
4) landraider options
5) drop pods

all of these give you options to get your assault troops there faster or to supress the enemys shooting fro them to get there in a better shape

Dimensional Key springs to mind... get a kill in combat turn 1 and from turn 2 onwards you have pinpoint DS? yes please.

we dont need scouts as we can take 35 cultists and sit them on an oblective. hell even 2 objectives if you conga line.

I agree we need access to more LR types.. but not stuff SM's get.. new ones for just Chaos.. Like the daemon of___ addon..

but lets face it.. this dex is far better than the last.. and if on day 2 of the book people are bitching that the new dex should be better.. **** off to another game system where updates are few and far between, which sees you returning with the tail between your legs,

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:27
Are we really complaining that chaos doesn't get SCOUTS??

No, we are complaining that chaos does not have any option to deliver an assault based army into close combat.

Rhinos are only good at transporting shooting units into rapid fire range.

The chaos pattern land raider is a poor assault platform to begin with, and it has to be fielded in your heavy support slot meaning its worthless to assault troops.

Chaos has no scoring assault marines.

The World Eater Legion is impossible to represent in the 6th edition chaos codex in any kind of competitive form.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:29
we dont need scouts as we can take 35 cultists and sit them on an oblective. hell even 2 objectives if you conga line.


Ah yes, cultists are the pinnacle achievement of the 6th edition codex, and so wonderfully represent the World Eaters. I mean World Eater players have been screaming for cultists forever and a day.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 19:33
No, we are complaining that chaos does not have any option to deliver an assault based army into close combat.

Rhinos are only good at transporting shooting units into rapid fire range.

The chaos pattern land raider is a poor assault platform to begin with, and it has to be fielded in your heavy support slot meaning its worthless to assault troops.

Chaos has no scoring assault marines.

The World Eater Legion is impossible to represent in the 6th edition chaos codex in any kind of competitive form.

And all of that would be solved with scouts?

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:43
And all of that would be solved with scouts?

Honestly scouts aren't even on my radar for fielding a world eater legion. Blood talon dreads in Storm Ravens on the other hand....

Maidel
07-10-2012, 19:46
Honestly scouts aren't even on my radar for fielding a world eater legion. Blood talon dreads in Storm Ravens on the other hand....

Right...

So, how about space marines getting all the chaos options?

totgeboren
07-10-2012, 19:48
As others have said, you can move forward around 15" first turn by using a rhino and a run move. If you have both the mark and an icon, you can often move and assault over 15".
If you get first turn, your opponent only has a single shooting phase before you can reach his lines. Just include a pair (or three!) cheapish Maulerfiends to run in front of your berzerkers, as they move 12"+ a fleet run-move, meaning they can often cover at least 17" in a turn, a bit more than your berzerkers/Khorne marines.
Your opponent now has to try and kill your daemon engines and your marines, all in a single phase. Sure this setup has no way of dealing with fliers, unless you bring your own flyer (meaning less boots on the ground), but that is something everyone has to deal with. At least fliers would be fairly ineffective against your army, as they would be either in close combat most of the time, or really close to his table edge, meaning his flyers only get to do a single attack before either flying around having nothing to shoot, or if your opponent is smart, speed of the table edge and back into reserves.
Still, that is only two or three times the flyer can attack during the entire game.

But really, if ones makes an army around a certain tactic, you will lose out on stuff that does not fit that tactic. It's called balance.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:50
Right...

So, how about space marines getting all the chaos options?

Most of the chaos options aren't legion specific which is what this thread is about. World Eater players don't care if Slaanesh marines can take an apothecary now, or that Typhus can make plague zombies.

Do you not understand the point of this thread? That the chaos codex has no way of fielding an assault based army list? And world eaters are an assault based legion?

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:52
As others have said, you can move forward around 15" first turn by using a rhino and a run move. If you have both the mark and an icon, you can often move and assault over 15".

And your opponent can just run away from you. 15" isn't closing the 24" gap you start with, and then you are out of your transport, taking fire, and your opponent just slowly backs away from you.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 19:53
Most of the chaos options aren't legion specific which is what this thread is about. World Eater players don't care if Slaanesh marines can take an apothecary now, or that Typhus can make plague zombies.

Do you not understand the point of this thread? That the chaos codex has no way of fielding an assault based army list? And world eaters are an assault based legion?

But you simply do. People are pointing it out all over the place and you are ignoring it. It just doesn't get everything you want. Seeing as how you appear to be asking for garanteed safe assaults, you are going to disappointed.

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 19:53
No way of fielding an assault list or no way of fielding an assault list that will get to attack on turn 1/2?

Youre right in that theres not much / nothing for fielding a one dimensional assault list anymore.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:55
But you simply do. People are pointing it out all over the place and you are ignoring it. It just doesn't get everything you want. Seeing as how you appear to be asking for garanteed safe assaults, you are going to disappointed.

You simply do? Moving your rhino up 6", getting out and running is the chaos version of an assault force? Wow who would have thunk it? That sounds so awesome! I bet there is no way your opponent can figure out a way to counter that!

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 19:58
No way of fielding an assault list or no way of fielding an assault list that will get to attack on turn 1/2?

Youre right in that theres not much / nothing [in the chaos codex] for fielding a one dimensional assault list anymore.

I agree completely.

totgeboren
07-10-2012, 20:00
And your opponent can just run away from you. 15" isn't closing the 24" gap you start with, and then you are out of your transport, taking fire, and your opponent just slowly backs away from you.

How slow can you move away with Maulerfiends moving+running around 17" a turn and moving+assaulting around 21" a turn? I don't know what table you are playing on, but mine is only 48" across. And if he deploys a long way away, you can drive your rhinos 18" turn one and hope it survives. And if he deployed that far away, you would not have been able to assault him turn 2 during 5ed rules anyway.

But sure, it's harder to use close combat units now than in 5ed. But if you dedicate for it, it can still be done successfully.

Remember that rhinos are dirt cheap. If they were great assault vehicles, they should cost more.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 20:02
You simply do? Moving your rhino up 6", getting out and running is the chaos version of an assault force? Wow who would have thunk it? That sounds so awesome! I bet there is no way your opponent can figure out a way to counter that!

Shock.

I've got an idea. Stay in the rhino longer, try and assault turn 3. Or take raiders?

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 20:02
I meant csm codex yes.

Freakiq
07-10-2012, 20:03
Still don't see why they didn't get Drop Pods, they're mentioned in the fluff all the time and were even mentioned as being used by chaos in the last codex.

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 20:05
When youve had years of the one dimsensional turn 1/2 charge, i can understand how it may seem that not being able to do that is weak, but the players who really are good and werent just relying on that crutch will adapt and overcome with little problem.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 20:08
When youve had years of the one dimsensional turn 1/2 charge, i can understand how it may seem that not being able to do that is weak, but the players who really are good and werent just relying on that crutch will adapt and overcome with little problem.

There is no way to adapt and overcome this problem if you are a world eater player. They simply killed off the world eater legion. You know, one of the big four.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 20:13
There is no way to adapt and overcome this problem if you are a world eater player. They simply killed off the world eater legion. You know, one of the big four.

Well, that assumes you fall into the idea that world eaters are ONLY crazy assault troopers.

blackcherry
07-10-2012, 20:15
Thats just it. Players don't want to do that. Change is nasty and difficult and requires effort. Why else do people ask for optimized lists on the net? They don't want to have to expend time and effort to become a good player when its easier just to take an army that doesn't require much effort to win.

Wyrmwood
07-10-2012, 20:15
Kevlar: World Eaters and "World Eaters" as you understand them are not the same. They have never been able to take drop pods, deep striking Land Raiders (including variants) and Storm Ravens in any Codex. The only exception to this is the Dreadclaw Assault Pod and you can have that. You're not actually a World Eater player at all. You want Blood Angels, not World Eaters. :rolleyes: Please just stop trolling.

If you truly want them, at least don't mention vehicles that they've never been able to use. Drop Pods? That's fine, just use the Dreadclaw in Imperial Armour Aeronautica.

Mr Zoat
07-10-2012, 20:17
Well, that assumes you fall into the idea that world eaters are ONLY crazy assault troopers.

No, I think that he's realised that Blood Angels do it too.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 20:20
Shock.

I've got an idea. Stay in the rhino longer, try and assault turn 3. Or take raiders?

So your solution is

a) Take 3 turns of fire to the face
or
b) Take a really bad transport for assault that cost on his own more than 10% of your army?

Why dont ppl just admid that indeed the chaos codex is lacking for a assault armie and yes if you want that kind of thing you are better of takeing the blood angle codex. Thats a fact

Now a other thing is do you need to build a assault based armie whit chaos
the answer is no
Just like you are porbebly not going to sucseed at useing dark eldar as a stand and shoot armie.So one is probebly better of not doing it.

The problem now is that ppl feel that you should be able to field a khorne bezerker armie that is great in assault and wins the game just based on that .

So if they want that are they better of useing a other codex

Well yes

So in that case blood angels do make a better codex for them.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 20:22
If you are facing fire for 3 turns, then all I can say is put more terrain on the board.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 20:25
Kevlar: World Eaters and "World Eaters" as you understand them are not the same. They have never been able to take drop pods, deep striking Land Raiders (including variants) and Storm Ravens in any Codex. The only exception to this is the Dreadclaw Assault Pod and you can have that. You're not actually a World Eater player at all. You want Blood Angels, not World Eaters. :rolleyes: Please just stop trolling.

If you truly want them, at least don't mention vehicles that they've never been able to use. Drop Pods? That's fine, just use the Dreadclaw in Imperial Armour Aeronautica.

The problem you seem to miss is that edition changes happen. Other codex releases have kept pace with the edition changes and supplied new vehicles that allow their armies to continue to work a certain way.

Chaos has always been a strong assault based army. 6th edition put a big obstacle in front of assault based armies. That obstacle can only be overcome by assault transports. Chaos hasn't had a new assault transport since the late 1980's.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 20:29
If you are facing fire for 3 turns, then all I can say is put more terrain on the board.

yea well that's a nice escape right
there are two senarios for me

a) its a tournament so i have no effect on the terain (which is sparse here in the Netherlands cause terrain is the biggest time drain on organising such a thing so tends to be sparse)
b) In a pick up game whit a normal opponent. He will just realise that i have a assault army and make sure only the absolute minimum gets on the table.

Wyrmwood
07-10-2012, 20:29
The problem you seem to miss is that edition changes happen. Other codex releases have kept pace with the edition changes and supplied new vehicles that allow their armies to continue to work a certain way. Chaos has always been a strong assault based army. 6th edition put a big obstacle in front of assault based armies.
I seem to miss that? Really? Yet you fail to grasp that your favourite tactic is now invalidated by an edition change. Simply adapt, or use a Dreadclaw to simply bypass being shot at. Hell, Terminators are very durable this edition - use them as a screen, or perhaps cultists or even rhinos. Use some imagination.


That obstacle can only be overcome by assault transports. Chaos hasn't had a new assault transport since the late 1980's.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_VEHICLES_AND_ACCESSORIES/CHAOS-DREADCLAW-ASSAULT-POD.html

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 20:34
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_VEHICLES_AND_ACCESSORIES/CHAOS-DREADCLAW-ASSAULT-POD.html
Also
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/STORM_EAGLE.html

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 20:38
I dont see them having killed off world eaters. I see them having killed off power gaming with a one dimensional tactic in regards to the csm list.

There will still be plenty of world eaters players, just not any power gamers using them at tournaments.

HereComesTomorrow
07-10-2012, 20:56
Chaos has no scoring assault marines.

Fairly sure I saw that a chaos lord with the mark of khorne makes berzerkers a troops choice.

Grimtuff
07-10-2012, 22:03
Because if the World eaters are known for anything, it's deep striking Land raiders, Storm Ravens, and Drop Pod assaults.


Also
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/STORM_EAGLE.html

Hypocritical posts are hypocritical.

You're fine with CSM having "proper" access to Storm Eagles yet lambaste someone for using a Storm Raven in a counts-as WE list from a BA dex? :eyebrows:


I dont see them having killed off world eaters. I see them having killed off power gaming with a one dimensional tactic in regards to the csm list.

There will still be plenty of world eaters players, just not any power gamers using them at tournaments.

You're funny. Since when in the last codex was a Zerker spam list the go to list for power gamers at tournaments?

IcedCrow
07-10-2012, 22:10
A bezerker army hasnt been a powergamer army since the 3.5 codex and predating grey knights and the current space wolf list (space wolves were also a power gaming choice back then)

So no i wasnt saying that suddenly chaos armies wont be represented. Optimizers havent used chaos in years since iron warrior heavy support basilisk spam was legal, so nothing new here...theres nothing busted in the new codex so optimizers will still not use it.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the optimizer dexes are neutered.

xxRavenxx
07-10-2012, 22:40
The chaos dex has the optimum number of Dinobots. Its clearly the best dex out there.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 23:16
A bezerker army hasnt been a powergamer army since the 3.5 codex and predating grey knights and the current space wolf list (space wolves were also a power gaming choice back then)

So no i wasnt saying that suddenly chaos armies wont be represented. Optimizers havent used chaos in years since iron warrior heavy support basilisk spam was legal, so nothing new here...theres nothing busted in the new codex so optimizers will still not use it.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the optimizer dexes are neutered.

But those optimizer sure bought a lot of necron flyers

Also seeing your response now I think this:



I dont see them having killed off world eaters. I see them having killed off power gaming with a one dimensional tactic in regards to the csm list.

There will still be plenty of world eaters players, just not any power gamers using them at tournaments.


needed a bit more context

Worldeaters
07-10-2012, 23:26
I seriously don't get this at all.
I play world eaters and chaos codex is fine. I like to play in tournaments, I'm not super competitive and do it more for the day out and still do well, last time won 3 drew 1 and lost 1. And that was with the 'poor codex' I am stoaked about this new book.
Next tournament is early November and I can't wait, you want to assault early get a dreadclaw or storm eagle. By the time your 12 inch moving spawn, fiend, bikes and raptors are done, won't be much left for zerkers to mop up.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 23:32
I seriously don't get this at all.
I play world eaters and chaos codex is fine. I like to play in tournaments, I'm not super competitive and do it more for the day out and still do well, last time won 3 drew 1 and lost 1. And that was with the 'poor codex' I am stoaked about this new book.
Next tournament is early November and I can't wait, you want to assault early get a dreadclaw or storm eagle. By the time your 12 inch moving spawn, fiend, bikes and raptors are done, won't be much left for zerkers to mop up.

yea well the thing I get to play at (aka every thing whitin 100km of my house) Don't let me take dreadclaw and storm eagels to tournamnts cause FW pissed of the competitive scene a bit to much whit the heavy mortar squads back in the day. And the fallout from that still hasn't blown over

Worldeaters
07-10-2012, 23:41
I don't use them myself, I meant for people to use them if they weren't happy with just the codex,

Col. Dash
08-10-2012, 00:21
HAHA Raven, thats the funniest thing I have heard yet, especially coming from you whom I rarely agree with. Thanks for the laugh.

Here is the problem, why should we be forced to go to FW or other codices to get the transports we have absolutely no reason not to have in the first place. Chaos has more than Rhinos at its disposal. They are the most diverse army out there, easily more varied than all the good guy chapters combined yet....

The Dark Mechanicus did not make a command decision early on after the Heresy to maximize efficiency and only produce Rhinos and Preds for 10000 years straight. I thought my job was boring. "I am menial serf 554, my job is to put the 4th and 5th tracks on rhinos." or "Stamp of Approval, Dark Inspector Bob, 8 billion rhinos and counting."

Also I dont know if Aeronauticus changed things but in the most recent book I have Dreadclaws count as fast attack choices.

IcedCrow
08-10-2012, 00:42
The optimizers bought a lot of necron flyers simply because currently that build is an easy crutch to use because there isnt a lot out there to counter them.

Once more anti flying items hit, those optimizers will be selling those night scythes on ebay and picking up the next easy thing to use.

The chaos list i feel is adequate and i feel can produce good lists, even assault lists.

What the new chaos codex doesnt have is an obvious power build that one can exploit like with the flyers,and it follows the new 6th design of not allowing turn 1/2 assaults.

That doesnt mean you cant build a solid assault list. It means you dont get a power build to trump the space wolves and grey knights (a good thing to me as if csm codex was as broken as the gk or sw codex youd basically not need an army list, just the optimal broken internet list that the codex produced ala draigo before the wound loophole closure and purifier spam list that is so popular) and you cant use the old one dimensional assault tactic and must coordinate and support your assault whereas before no support was required.

IcedCrow
08-10-2012, 00:44
Also integrating forge world closes off a lot of the flier issues as well as gives more build options.

KharnTheBetrayer01
08-10-2012, 01:39
Ah, what you're looking for is a flawless plan for getting your men directly into combat, bypassing all fire and completely disarming anyone who plays a shooty army (Tau and imperial guard jump immediately to mind. Eldar and a fair few types of Space Marine army too) with your combat specialised force who should be shredding most armies up close

Well that's totally reasonable and not at all wholly unfair to anyone else.

No. You have Power armour, suck it up, weather the fire and throw your men into the meat grinder where they belong. Power Armour and toughness 4 means you don't get to complain about massed firepower. If Orks can do it, so can you. (I'm aware they have assault vehicles. But unless they're paying for battlew wagons, they have assault vehicles that may as well be made of cardboard.

You can be in combat by turn 3 if you footslog and that's if they backpedal away from you. And then you'll absolutely tear most armies asunder.

If you choose to take an Assaulty Chaos Army, one of the peculiar things about them is thta they're Power Armoured psychopaths who will happily weather fire. You know, how World Eaters armies ALWAYS do in the fluff? It's their canon mode of attacking. Charging headlong into guns, shedding their own blood for Khorne before shedding the enemies blood for Khorne, there literally isn't a more Khornate thing to do, and it can be represented perfectly. Weathering the fire, losing hundreds then slaughtering people with the five or ten men they've got left. Lord above, Kharn killed a planetsworth of marines singlehandedly because they had your mindset.

Man up. If you want an army that deep-strikes in, or drives forward to surgically kill the enemy with as few personal casualties as possible, then you want a Blood angels army, or a Night Lords army, or a White Scars army. And that's fine, go collect them and have an amazing time. But don't complain that you can't make a World Eaters army with only World eaters equipment, units, marks and characters.

IcedCrow
08-10-2012, 01:54
I love this response :-D

althathir
08-10-2012, 03:24
To the OPs main question, it really depends on a players personal opinion to an extent. If they see a certain legions rules being represented better by a different book than that book may be a better option (and it might not even be a power thing). Count-as is always going to be a debated concept so this a thread I expect to see reposted every couple of weeks.

Scammel
08-10-2012, 09:13
I'll give Kharn something else to add to his sig - Those last few posts have excellently summed up what I've felt on the issue all this time but not been able to put quite so eloquently.

Wishing
08-10-2012, 10:42
I personally agree with Kharn entirely. But it's not a black and white thing, it's a question of points on a sliding scale. The Kharn position can be summarised as "play for character, stop worrying about your odds of winning or losing". Which is a great attitude, and one that GW games are to a large extent based on. However, it’s an attitude that nobody (or at least very few) who plays can actually adhere to 100%, in my experience. There is always some part of us that wants our stuff to be more effective in game so we have a better shot at doing well when we play. Few people think it is fun to play an army of 25 grots against 50 marines and getting slaughtered – for those that like some degree of competitive nature to the game, scenarios like that are pointless and frustrating. We want to feel like we are competing on a relatively even footing. And how much the game devolves into min-maxing and “powergaming” just depends on where our personal tolerance level is for handicapping ourselves competitively, based on our subjective feel of how good our army is.

Maidel
08-10-2012, 10:56
Khan. Seriously. I wish my posts were that good.

HereticHammer01
08-10-2012, 11:32
Looks like Kharn spilt plenty of blood for the blood god in this thread...

Well said though, I think people should also consider allies alongside the chaos dex, which can potentially fill gaps in making it more themed and perhaps making it more competitive.

Nonalyth
08-10-2012, 11:37
I fondly remember back in the 3.5 ed codex when World Eaters could take drop pods, flying transports and scoring jump infantry.

Oh wait.

The new codex is far closer to that divine tome than the abortion that was 4th ed, so when you say that it can't properly represent a World Eaters army, what you're actually saying is it can't represent a Blood Angels army. Funny that.

HereComesTomorrow
08-10-2012, 11:37
I personally agree with Kharn entirely. But it's not a black and white thing, it's a question of points on a sliding scale. The Kharn position can be summarised as "play for character, stop worrying about your odds of winning or losing". Which is a great attitude, and one that GW games are to a large extent based on. However, it’s an attitude that nobody (or at least very few) who plays can actually adhere to 100%, in my experience. There is always some part of us that wants our stuff to be more effective in game so we have a better shot at doing well when we play. Few people think it is fun to play an army of 25 grots against 50 marines and getting slaughtered – for those that like some degree of competitive nature to the game, scenarios like that are pointless and frustrating. We want to feel like we are competing on a relatively even footing. And how much the game devolves into min-maxing and “powergaming” just depends on where our personal tolerance level is for handicapping ourselves competitively, based on our subjective feel of how good our army is.

But there's a difference between playing a gimped army and complaining that a theme you like is ruined due to the army book not accommodating it when it clearly is. If he wanted to play World Eater because yay World Eaters, then he would take the time and play testing to find a list and strategy that works within the book of the faction, but it's pretty obvious he just wants to use a book with already established cookie cutter lists and strategies to skip the hard part and go straight to winning.

KharnTheBetrayer01
08-10-2012, 11:48
I personally agree with Kharn entirely. But it's not a black and white thing, it's a question of points on a sliding scale. The Kharn position can be summarised as "play for character, stop worrying about your odds of winning or losing". Which is a great attitude, and one that GW games are to a large extent based on. However, it’s an attitude that nobody (or at least very few) who plays can actually adhere to 100%, in my experience. There is always some part of us that wants our stuff to be more effective in game so we have a better shot at doing well when we play. Few people think it is fun to play an army of 25 grots against 50 marines and getting slaughtered – for those that like some degree of competitive nature to the game, scenarios like that are pointless and frustrating. We want to feel like we are competing on a relatively even footing. And how much the game devolves into min-maxing and “powergaming” just depends on where our personal tolerance level is for handicapping ourselves competitively, based on our subjective feel of how good our army is.

Can't disagree with you. Sooner or later the competitive streak comes out in all of us. It's all about what is best for one person's personal gaming style.

That said, most armies, while maybe disadvantaged, can at least compete with all the others (The Tyranids may be an exceptions if internet scuttlebutt is to be believed. Wouldn't know, have never faced them), and if you're playing for theme, you're generally only looking for a chance to win, rather than a guarantee. (Unless your theme is undefeated Lord willing to use any and all the tactics at his disposal to wipe the foe off the planet, regardless of doctrine, honour or innocent lives lost. Which is a perfectly acceptable theme for probably every army)

As an aside. 25 Grots versus 50 Space Marines wouldn't be fun at all. However, points appropriate numbers of Grots versus 50 marines would be hilarious if no tanks, flyers or walkers were involved. A veritable green tide...

Lord Damocles
08-10-2012, 11:56
You're fine with CSM having "proper" access to Storm Eagles yet lambaste someone for using a Storm Raven in a counts-as WE list from a BA dex? :eyebrows:
When the only reason you're taking a Storm Raven is that you percieve the Codex it's from as being more powerful, but hide behind 'it's more fluffy' (when much of that Codex isn't at all), yeah :eyebrows:
(You could take an actual Storm Eagle with the Blood Angels list, but obviously the Raven is more fluffy for World Eaters..?)


Besides which, it was more a further rebuttal of the claim that 'Chaos hasn't had a new assault transport since the late 1980s' which is just more wild hyperbole attempting to mask 'I want a more powerful army'.

Fizzy
08-10-2012, 12:01
The betrayal book.

Use preator and take Orbital assault as a rite of war.
Use rampagers.

Tada perfect to represent World eaters.

OgreBattle
08-10-2012, 15:07
If you choose to take an Assaulty Blood Angels Army, one of the peculiar things about them is thta they're Power Armoured psychopaths who will happily weather fire with Feel No Pain. You know, how Death Company armies ALWAYS do in the fluff? It's their canon mode of attacking. Charging headlong into guns, shedding their own blood for da Emperor before shedding the enemies blood for Sanguinus, there literally isn't a more Death Company thing to do, and it can be represented perfectly. Weathering the fire, losing hundreds then slaughtering people with the five or ten men they've got left. Lord above, Sanguinus killed a dozen bloodthirsters single handedly because they had your mindset.

154359


Man up. If you want an army that can't deep-strikes in, can't drives forward and suffers heavy casualties because they don't have Feel No Pain, then you want a World Eaters army.




Fixed it for ya.

Now I want to see infantry Death company vs Khorne Berserkers!
Whoever loses their head, Khorne Wins :)

Wishing
08-10-2012, 15:36
It's true that in terms of blood-soaked berserker status, death company and world eater berserkers seem pretty much interchangeable.


Can't disagree with you. Sooner or later the competitive streak comes out in all of us. It's all about what is best for one person's personal gaming style.

That said, most armies, while maybe disadvantaged, can at least compete with all the others (The Tyranids may be an exceptions if internet scuttlebutt is to be believed. Wouldn't know, have never faced them), and if you're playing for theme, you're generally only looking for a chance to win, rather than a guarantee. (Unless your theme is undefeated Lord willing to use any and all the tactics at his disposal to wipe the foe off the planet, regardless of doctrine, honour or innocent lives lost. Which is a perfectly acceptable theme for probably every army)

As an aside. 25 Grots versus 50 Space Marines wouldn't be fun at all. However, points appropriate numbers of Grots versus 50 marines would be hilarious if no tanks, flyers or walkers were involved. A veritable green tide...

True, and it all boils down to what a person considers to be 'viable' for their gaming needs. For some, charging a bunch of berserkers into an enemy gunline and having them cut down like chaff is great fun. For others, that just doesn't cut it - they need to have some way of effectively mitigating the cutting down part to be playable. Each person has their own individual criteria for what makes the game fun, so what works for one might not work for all...

HereComesTomorrow
08-10-2012, 15:40
It's true that in terms of blood-soaked berserker status, death company and world eater berserkers seem pretty much interchangeable.
And maybe that's the lesson we've learned here...

FADE TO BLACK

CUE MUSIC

ROLL CREDITS

GodofWarTx
09-10-2012, 04:53
So...how exactly are 13 point chaos marines with BP+CC weapons not assault marines? They score, hurt in CC, are tough, and are cheap. All the core characteristics of what one would want.



What I have learned in this thread is there are some chaos players who are super cool guys,and others who just want to WAAC, and squeeze their chosen paint scheme/model mix into whatever power book they find. I am still laughing at the complaining about no chaos scouts.

dtjunkie19
09-10-2012, 05:10
So...how exactly are 13 point chaos marines with BP+CC weapons not assault marines? They score, hurt in CC, are tough, and are cheap. All the core characteristics of what one would want.



What I have learned in this thread is there are some chaos players who are super cool guys,and others who just want to WAAC, and squeeze their chosen paint scheme/model mix into whatever power book they find. I am still laughing at the complaining about no chaos scouts.

They aren't 13 points if they are khorne marked. So just regular marines.

Hellebore
09-10-2012, 05:21
Not to mention copious amounts of Librarian Dreadnoughts :yes:

2 years ago it wasn't representative of BLOOD ANGELS armies either :shifty:

Hellebore

Max_Killfactor
09-10-2012, 13:39
For a jump pack army/drop pod army, it fits the MO perfectly. For a customizable termy army, Space wolves is still better. I am still on the fence about buying the chaos codex since both of the others seem to do it far better and fluffier.

Well, Space Wolves certainly do it fluffier.

Because of the fur.

I read the title of the thread as "Are the Blood Angels still a better codex than the new Chaos codex?". It's what it really boils down to.

Luckily, my group is fine with Forgeworld units. I'm still unsure though if I'm going to take Dreadclaws, or just have a blob of cultists with a lord on a juggy screening a swarm of berzekers. Toss in some bikes, a heldrake or two, and maybe some Maulerfiends (on the fence about them). Boom. I've got myself a list worthy of Khorne.

And uh, I agree with Kharn. He rules.

Baluc
09-10-2012, 14:09
These sorts of thread supply my gaming group with hours of laughs.

Its funny because death company also can't score. Neither can the dreadnoughts... So maybe try again to justify the WAASness.

Khorne bezerkers, option to score

Chaos space marines always score

khorne bikes... can score depending on mission

Khorne raptors... can score depending on mission

khorne havocs... can score depending on mission

Khorne chosen can't score but have bolters, bp, and ccw, 2 attaxks base, and rage for 5 attacks a model. Options for power weapons, and shooty weapons, seem like neat rampagers to me.

So lets look at the army list from betrayal

we have

marines (not all bezerkers) with bolters, or bp ccw, or option to buy all three

bikes

assault marines

rampagers

termies (who are just run of the mill terminators no rampager terminators)

Anyway its almost like phil kelly wanted chaos to play like a balanced force in warhammer 40k 6th edition. Shooting supported by assault. Complaining that being an army with one of the few units that can rampage even blob squads seems a little off key. I love that you can complain the land raider is an over priced unit at 230 but the more expensive less armour, less likely to get cover( you can't assault without coming into hover mode) storm raven is a great buy.

Shamana
09-10-2012, 22:07
They aren't 13 points if they are khorne marked. So just regular marines.

Even world eaters probably have newbies. It takes great deeds to earn Khorne's blessing, as I'm seeing it. That, or 2 points more per model ;) .

Blackwolf
09-10-2012, 23:41
If you take large squads of Beserkers then loseing a bunch to shooting will not be a problem. One of my gameing buds uses 6 16 man Beserkers and Kharn and up until flyer spam he basically crushed everything he faced.