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bad dice
07-10-2012, 09:27
Since there where apparently problems whit the other post a re-post

So:
Did flyers ruin the game for you?

For me they kind of did a littlle
At first I found them very refreshing and fun as hell finely there was real air power in the game.

But then things started to pick up and the nasty side was show.

First off flyers have all the advantages over normal troops
1) They always get their shots in first.
2) There is no way to hid from them.
3) They are ultimate point denial.
4) Shooting them is highly in effective
5) A lot of them can deal whit any thing you can field but few things can deal whit them.
6) Lot of armies have no effective answer to flyers especially not since flyers get to alpha strike there counter first. (well except things whit intercept but those are really limited.

Now it's not that bad if you only face one or two cause in the end they lack the fire power to get you off objectives.
But silly armies like Necrons whit 11 flyers or IG whit 9 just are a pain to play against

Sure you might still win but was there any fun involved.

I for one would hate to play against flyer spam and although I don't see myself as a quitter. I would rather do something else whit my time than play a frustrating battle

Maidel
07-10-2012, 09:33
If they are spammed then that army is putting a lot of points into units that aren't troops and thus can't win games for you unless you are playing purge. I think the biggest problem is most games I see played are simply 'blow up ****' with no objectives or point. Thus taking things like fliers become unbalanced because you get all their benefits with no draw backs.

DeeKay
07-10-2012, 09:45
I'm of the opinion that fliers are not fit for the scale of the game. In 6-15mm games, (Epic, Dropzone Commander, etc) there is enough space on a 6' by 4' board to properly manouveur with fliers. In a company scale game like 40k, the amount of space to properly accomodate fliers would be prohibitive. Before people start with "but what about on-table artillery?" the artillery could be considered a stopgap for tanks, or the artillery could be what is under attack and so on.

With regards,
Dan.

Haravikk
07-10-2012, 09:46
Anything that is spammed can ruin the game, so flyers aren't really all that different, especially since armies that take the maximum flyers may leave themselves unable to hold objectives etc. So as long as you're playing random scenarios then flyers aren't all that good, as a unit properly entrenched on an objective isn't going to be any easier for them to shift than any other shooting unit.

It's not really true that there are no options to deal with flyers, as everyone can take fortifications so a quad gun can work wonders in that regard. Also, heavy weapons that have moved may as well try some pot-shots at flyers for good measure, since they'd be Snap Shots anyway so it's not such a big deal. It is true that only a handful of codexes have proper anti-flyer options, and a lot of these are currently flyers of your own, but that's something that should change over time as more codexes come out. Particularly as more units come out that are good dual-purpose non-flyers, as it should be possible to take a viable army without flyers if you want.

I think they add something new to the game, which is fine. I'm not personally too fussy about them myself, as I think that handling flyers in a tabletop game is more of a pain than anything else. The problem with them is simply that they've leapt in from apocalypse without the FAQ's giving us Skyfire or Flakk Missiles to balance them, but that's the kind of oversight to be expected from GW's FAQ's :)

nedius
07-10-2012, 10:07
I'm of the opinion that fliers are not fit for the scale of the game. In 6-15mm games, (Epic, Dropzone Commander, etc) there is enough space on a 6' by 4' board to properly manouveur with fliers. In a company scale game like 40k, the amount of space to properly accomodate fliers would be prohibitive. Before people start with "but what about on-table artillery?" the artillery could be considered a stopgap for tanks, or the artillery could be what is under attack and so on.

With regards,
Dan.

Agreed.

There is an entire game over at forgeworld dedicated to fliers. And that is the right scale for them, and there they should remain.

Hovering craft, or skimmers, are fine for 40k. Fliers? They just don't 'fit' a 40k table.


Game scale aside, I think that fliers have been added to sell models, not to enhance the game. This leads to the problems people have mentioned; their effectiveness balanced against their counters is currently too heavily skewed towards the flier (hmmm... gw giving rules boosts to new models they are trying to sell... surely not!). In small numbers, one or two, that's not too bad. They can have an impact, but it will be limited. When they are spammed, even when playing objective games, their ability to deal damage whilst taking little in return gives them a reasonable chance to table the opposing army, negating the objectives or anything else altogether.

RanaldLoec
07-10-2012, 10:17
Fliers haven't really caused any issues in my gaming group.

I can remember 5th edition rhino walls and guard tank spam.

The issue for me isn't fliers its spam list. Two or three fliers or tanks I can deal with with most my lists. But when I face 9 it becomes more of an issue.

The codex or armies are rarely the problem what you should be really looking at is your opponent who has chosen to field that list or unit you object to or have difficulty with. I personally enjoy going away finding a counter to that form of spam list trashing it in a few games till my opponent adapts or changes his tactics or lists to counter my solution to his spam list.

You tend to find some opponents will always gravitate towards the latest spam list as its there play style which is there right to.

Out right decrying a whole unit type simply because a section of the community believes they don't fit in is as bad as banning a whole army because its seen as being more abuseable eg grey knights, necrons.

One issue I do have is that some armies have been left with out fliers eg Tau, Eldar etc. Not an issue in my gaming group as 40k approved forgeworld units are readily accepted which includes a few fliers for these armies.

OgreBattle
07-10-2012, 10:17
The problem is when flyers are as tough as a tank, in addition to being a flyer

The problem is when flyers have more firepower than a tank, in addition to being a flyer

The problem is having a flying doubleshooty tank that costs less than a normal tank

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 11:33
Now it's not that bad if you only face one or two cause in the end they lack the fire power to get you off objectives.
But silly armies like Necrons whit 11 flyers or IG whit 9 just are a pain to play against
This is the problem; not fliers generally*

The ability for a couple of factions to spam relatively cheap, effective, fliers.

Contrary to seemingly poular belief though, not every Necron/Guard player is taking a dozen fliers every game (and if they do, you're not forced to play them). Even then, there are some pretty large weaknesses with flier spam armies at sensible (~1500pts) points levels.


*although there are problems with fliers generally - for example fitting into the scale of game - but these hardly ruin the game any more than special characters or whatever

bad dice
07-10-2012, 11:45
This is the problem; not fliers generally*

The ability for a couple of factions to spam relatively cheap, effective, fliers.

Contrary to seemingly poular belief though, not every Necron/Guard player is taking a dozen fliers every game (and if they do, you're not forced to play them). Even then, there are some pretty large weaknesses with flier spam armies at sensible (~1500pts) points levels.


*although there are problems with fliers generally - for example fitting into the scale of game - but these hardly ruin the game any more than special characters or whatever

Well that depends
Normally speaking I never run into any one whit such a list.
But on tournaments it happened 3 times now (out of 2 tournaments).
And then I am forced to play them sadly.

Also I think the main problem is indeed that both the flyers that get spammed are also capable of dropping troops on objectives at the end of the game.

Maidel
07-10-2012, 11:49
But in order to do that he's kept that unit of troops inside the flyer all game. They have done nothing to make their points back and have run the risk of ending up as a dead model on the roll of a 2 or more if the vehicle crashes.

Basically, lots of risk to that strategy.

Lord Damocles
07-10-2012, 11:51
Tournaments are a different kettle of fish entirely though.

At tournaments you got/get Starcannon gunlines of doom, Assault Cannon gunlines of doom, flying circus armies of doom, Long Fang spam armies of doom, MSU mech MEQ armies of doom, Lash/Oblit spam armies of doom, and now flier spam armies of doom.

None of those styles of lists were 'good for the game' or massively enjoyable to face, but it's a tournament; what else do you expect but the best (most spammy) possible list(s)?

Vaktathi
07-10-2012, 12:05
As others noted, there's a scale issue where aircraft, especially entire squadrons, making appearances for more than a couple of seconds on any battlefield that a 40k game would be representing becomes kinda silly. They're really just inappropriate to the size of battle that a 40k game represents. That said, the same could be said of other things that also show up, so...


Aside from that, there's been a lot of changes to Flyers from their old FW rules. Aside from how they come on and make their attack runs, they're significantly cheaper with noticeably better armor than they used to have. An Imperial Navy Valkyrie was a 200something point unit after kit and only AV11 under FW's rules, which was then changed to AV12 and ruled as a Fast Skimmer for the IG codex being given "additional armor for close support operations and a subsequent reduction in performance" or somesuch. Most FW flyers were AV10 with a few rare AV11 vehicles, most flyers now are AV11 if not AV12 with the ability to get Jink saves (which FW rules didn't have) and 60% of the cost of their FW incarnations (if they had any) and most have some sort of damage reduction capability (Living Metal, Demonic Possession, free extra armor, PotMS and immunity to melta, etc). Couple this with the massive nerfs to ground vehicles in 6th, and we get aircraft with roughly the same armor, similar armament, and similar costs to ground vehicles, but are drastically more effective.

I don't think the current implementation of Flyers was done particularly well.

lanrak
07-10-2012, 12:52
Hi.
I have to agree with Vaktathi.
IF they wanted to implement flyers to add more depth and variety to the game, fair enough.

But its obviuos the way they have been implemented is just to sell as many new flyer models as possible.
(With very little thought to the negative impact on game play.)
Mind you its no real surprise is it...

TheBearminator
07-10-2012, 12:52
I think flyers are now the pain that skimmers were when I started playing. I played orks (and sometimes salamanders) and my pal played mechanized eldar with this forcefield thing that makes every penetration roll being made with two dice where only the lowest count. On top of that, a moving skimmer counted all penetrating hits as glancing hits and could only be hit on sixes in close combat. No fun to play for an ork.

Murphey
07-10-2012, 13:09
Honestly, flyers really mess with the dynamic of 40k for several reasons, in my opinion:

1: They're immune to close combat. In an edition where close combat is already struggling, this pretty much seals the deal that putting points into a close combat army, or even sinking a significant number of points into close combat units (especially if they happen to lack extremely good saves) is a tactically non-viable approach.

2: Many of the older flyers (Fast skimmers that got changed in the 6th edition update) like the vendettas are woefully undercosted. Brokenly so. The new Chaos dragon is closer to how much they should cost in general (which is why it's very much not competitive compared to other flyers), but instead we get vendetta gunships and doomscythes that should cost 80% more in the current meta (see below).

3: There is an utter lack of anti-flyers in most armies. Yes, I realize that people can get Aegis Defense Lines, but that's still a lousy counter. It's generic, dependent on the BS of the firers (meaning many armies are muuuuch less effective with them), limited to one per army, and utterly lacks any personal flavor of each army. I was extremely surprised at the lack of anti-flyer options in the newest Chaos codex, I honestly figured GW would be trying to re-correct for the horrible turn the meta has taken with flyers. Instead we get bizarrely expensive missile options on an extremely limited number of units that have a pretty poor chance of taking down flyers. (On 12 armor flyer, 22.22% to inflict a hullpoint of damage and a 1.85% to get a destroyed result)

All of the above create a dynamic where flyers cost-to-benefit ratio is so insanely advantageous that it's a no-brainer to take them, and most options that people have to try and take down enemy flyers literally cost several times more than the flyers they're trying to counter.

Now, for the sake of full disclosure, flyers are not the only reason that the current dynamic of 40k is so horribly unbalanced. Frankly, it's probably the worst I've seen except for some of 5th (lolz, musical chairs!). Flyers are a big part of it, but they are only the symptom. There is a massive gulf between the power level of the current codices out there. Even if flyers were magically removed from the game, the Tyranid, SoB, and Tau codices would still be ridiculously, laughably underpowered, and Grey Knights, Necrons, and Space Wolves would still be ridiculously overpowered. Imperial Guard, ironically, would actually be brought much more in line with the change, although still be much higher on the power spectrum.

So to summarize; Yes, Flyers are currently a very bad thing for 40k in the current dynamic. They are not the devil or the single reason for the imbalance, but they are a very significant contributing factor.

Sparowl
07-10-2012, 17:12
It's interesting that when people talk about fliers, they always mention Necrons, IG and GK. Now Chaos will get a mention of having a "bad" flier (I have no experience with it). I almost never hear mention of the Ork fliers. Do people not consider then as bad? Or is it just that the Ork book feels like it needs/doesn't need them to be competitive?

Commandojimbob
07-10-2012, 17:27
Fliers = great addition to the game, but.........problem is that at the moment they are not fully integrated because not everyone has standard codex access to them - once that happens, then we will see the fully dynamic game 6th edition promises.

At the moment, however, there is the chance of too many uneven match ups and 1 Quad gun is not going to be good enough for some versus the established few.

Poseidal
07-10-2012, 17:33
Ork and Dark Eldar flyers aren't complained about. The Chaos one has high armour value and points cost, which is probably actually fair for the armour value and firepower, but next to a Vendetta looks severely overcosted. Weapons that would be traditionally 'anti-flyer' are less effective or even ineffective against this armour armour value.

The big problem is, no flyers should have had armour greater than 11. The second problem is they are then given too much firepower for the points cost.

Horus38
07-10-2012, 17:58
Ork and Dark Eldar flyers aren't complained about. The Chaos one has high armour value and points cost, which is probably actually fair for the armour value and firepower, but next to a Vendetta looks severely overcosted. Weapons that would be traditionally 'anti-flyer' are less effective or even ineffective against this armour armour value.

The big problem is, no flyers should have had armour greater than 11. The second problem is they are then given too much firepower for the points cost.

Hear hear. The only follow up I've noticed is that certain factions do not have access to reliable anti-air weapons, I'm hoping as more codexs are released this will be addressed.

Kevlar
07-10-2012, 18:16
Flyers devalue assault troops even more than they have already been devalued with other rule changes. They render assault based monstrous creatures, who already had their attacks against vehicles halved, useless. They are immune to assault squads with power/chain fists, assault oriented dreadnoughts, etc.

Flyers just push the meta change to an even greater extreme. Their protection from shooting, especially twin-linked shooting, isn't that great.

Gaargod
07-10-2012, 19:08
To be fair, the Ork Dakkajet is actually pretty good. 130pts with upgrades is fairly angry. Especially as it's a Waaaghplane - it's great at zooming in and wreaking other flyers in one go.
It's just that the Ork codex isn't super broken, so people object less to it. With proper anti-flyer options, it should die fairly easily - although perhaps another few points added onto its cost wouldn't hurt...


The vendetta and nightscythe are the worst examples of flyers. The vendetta is drastically underpriced - it's always been good for the cost, but with flyer rules it's nuts - it has a great damage output with 3 twin-linked lascannons as well as decent transport and Av12. When you consider it's only just over twice the price of a Chimeras... Yeah.
The nightscythe is similarly a great transport. If it wasn't a dedicated transport, it'd be much less offensive to players - as it is, it allows Necrons to utterly spam flyers for not much of a problem. Again, for 100pts... no.

The doomscythe... Well that thing just has a silly gun.

mughi3
07-10-2012, 20:19
No

Our group was using flyers in normal games via the FW rules long before 6th. the only real problemi see is the removal of the ability to assault them with jump infantry as per the FW rules. especially now with the way assauting vehicles in 6th has been super buffed. if anything flyers became a bit less flexible with the new movement rules, but are otherwise fine. All those FW AA vehicles now have a purpose.

Xeen
07-10-2012, 20:28
I personally wish they would have left flies in Apoc only or limited to games 2000 pts or above.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 20:38
Fliers = great addition to the game, but.........problem is that at the moment they are not fully integrated because not everyone has standard codex access to them - once that happens, then we will see the fully dynamic game 6th edition promises.

At the moment, however, there is the chance of too many uneven match ups and 1 Quad gun is not going to be good enough for some versus the established few.

Yea well that's what I tought until the chaos dex came out.
And that smashed that idea to bits.
Not only did they not get a decent anti air unit (lest face it havocs are not going to be effective)

Secondly the chaos fliers is crap at anti air in fact it probably the worst anti flyer flyer even whit the vector strike. (great vs MEQ trough) And he is very expensive in points (as it should be whit that flamer)

This means that we can not realy expect to get a lot more out of the following books.

The saddest thing is that the most broken flyer spam is by necrons. And those are not going away any time soon

AlphariusOmegon20
07-10-2012, 20:43
Dark Eldar flyers aren't complained about ANYMORE.

There, fixed it for you. With the changes to how many missiles you can fire per turn, the DE flyer isn't that bad anymore.

No one has ever complained about the Ork flyer. Why? Well, let me point out something to you.

The complaints come mainly from one of 4 things. Either an upgrade is too OP for it's cost to begin with and shouldn't be on a vehicle to start with or is already figured into the cost ( Cermite armor on the Stormraven, I'm looking at you), the Flyer is a dedicated transport when it really shouldn't be (Necrons, now I'm looking at you and your night scythes), the fact the damn thing can be spammed from hell, either individually or in squadrons (Night Scythes and Vendettas, I'm looking at BOTH of you), or the base cost of the flyer makes it a ridiculously obvious option because it's so undercosted for what it does. ( Night Scythes, you made the list 3 different times. Vendettas, you're on here twice.)

The Ork flyer can not be spammed beyond 3 on table total, doesn't have massively OP upgrades, and isn't a dedicated transport., The fact it's also competing for FA slots in the Ork book, which is full of good choices, also helps keep the numbers down.

The reason why the DE Razorwing is such a no brainer, is it has a damage output per turn equivalent or higher to the Ravager, and is a far superior choice to the Talos and Cronos. Only the Voidraven can challenge the razorwing's output per turn, and surprise, surprise, it's a flyer too!

Believe it or not, the reason why you never hear complaints about the Stormtalon is, it's also competing for good FA slots, just like the Bomma does.

The BA Storm raven, I rarely hear any complaints about, because it's competing for HS slots in a very full FOC choice. It's always the GK one I hear the complaints about, because the GK competes for FA slots against ONE other unit, Interceptor squads, and I rarely see those on the table. That the Stormraven in general gets ceramite armor as standard makes it only worse.

Now here comes the inevitable Mat Ward/Robin Cruddace rant. Notice, that most flyers someone has a complaint with come from either a book written by Ward or Cruddace. I will say no more on the issue, other than this proves further that neither have any business writing codexes.

Poseidal
07-10-2012, 20:55
The Razorwing has higher anti-infantry firepower (all of the missiles are generally better against infantry for the most part, and all expire after use), but anti-vehicle (apart from against flyers) is worse than the Ravager, which has exactly 50% more firepower. The Ravager is also significantly cheaper in points than both flyers.

The Talos and Chronos have the problem of being on 'foot' for the most part, either having the foot slog into their short range or rely on Webway portals.

unknown_lifeform
07-10-2012, 20:59
The actual flyer rules don't intrinsically hurt the game - rather they add a new dimension to it which I think is rather fun. The only change I'd like to see made is jump units and jetbikes being able to do some sort of vector strike attack vs flyers.

However the way some flyers have been implemented does hurt the game in my opinion. Firstly the current patchy availability of flyers and AA is unbalancing. Secondly, some flyers (and flying monstrous creatrues) are far too resilient for their costs (set under previous editions and totally different rules) which don't represent their current worth. I feel the vast majority of flyers should have AV10 and 2 hull points and it is when an army can spam multiple more resilient flyers that things break down.

Things like the vendetta were overpowered and undercosted before the introduction of flyer rules and are even more so now. They need to be restatted and re-costed, although it hasn't been GWs practice to do stuff like this in the past. I'd say the problem isn't the flyer rules but GWs inflexible and infrequent system for updating codexes. It would be nice if they could automatically update and "patch" their rules like computer games do.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-10-2012, 21:12
The Razorwing has higher anti-infantry firepower (all of the missiles are generally better against infantry for the most part, and all expire after use), but anti-vehicle (apart from against flyers) is worse than the Ravager, which has exactly 50% more firepower. The Ravager is also significantly cheaper in points than both flyers.

The Talos and Chronos have the problem of being on 'foot' for the most part, either having the foot slog into their short range or rely on Webway portals.

I don't dispute that. I was looking at damage output per weapon, not at a particular target.

TheDungen
07-10-2012, 21:36
i dont mind, this flier spam is just something that happens right now cause no one have good anti air capabilities. but as soon as one or two armies have a reliable way of dealing with fliers they'll start dropping in numbers very quickly.

Poseidal
07-10-2012, 21:43
I don't dispute that. I was looking at damage output per weapon, not at a particular target.

The Razorwing has the same weapons as the Ravager, but only has two of them while the Ravager has three. Is this per choice? because the other weapons on the Razorwing (missiles) are mismatched with the targets its Lances prefer, so it would be a one or the other most of the time. I would say the Ravager, having more guns and lower points cost is where to go for firepower; the Razorwing can fill an anti-infantry role as well, but doesn't do the firepower job as well. It would be a trade-off for those heavy support choices.

I think that unlike certain codices, in the Dark Eldar book there is genuine choice between them with tradeoffs depending on what you take. Even the slow movers can fill a role (maybe attacking from Webway Portals) and not be bad.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 22:06
i dont mind, this flier spam is just something that happens right now cause no one have good anti air capabilities. but as soon as one or two armies have a reliable way of dealing with fliers they'll start dropping in numbers very quickly.

I put the wishful thinking in bold for you
no need to thank me.

Scribe of Khorne
07-10-2012, 22:17
I do not think that flyer spam can be seen as any more competitive then the other top level lists. Answer is no, they dont hurt the game, poor expectations and assumptions hurts the game.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-10-2012, 22:47
The Razorwing has the same weapons as the Ravager, but only has two of them while the Ravager has three. Is this per choice? because the other weapons on the Razorwing (missiles) are mismatched with the targets its Lances prefer, so it would be a one or the other most of the time. I would say the Ravager, having more guns and lower points cost is where to go for firepower; the Razorwing can fill an anti-infantry role as well, but doesn't do the firepower job as well. It would be a trade-off for those heavy support choices.

I think that unlike certain codices, in the Dark Eldar book there is genuine choice between them with tradeoffs depending on what you take. Even the slow movers can fill a role (maybe attacking from Webway Portals) and not be bad.

You're forgetting the missiles.

bad dice
07-10-2012, 23:36
Hmm I am a little put of by the fact that Yes is almost equal to no and that YES If Spammed if the most popular choice by far.

And here I was hoping it was my
usual DOOOOOOOOOOOM attitude that got to me.

Gues I need to think about limiting the number of fliers if I organise events

How much seems enough to you guys

3?

Poseidal
07-10-2012, 23:53
I mentioned the missiles in that they're mismatched with the targets of its guns so the two never contribute firepower at the same time (effectively).

Maidel
07-10-2012, 23:55
I wouldn't limit them at all. It's a gw authorised part of the codexes, doesn't putting these sorts of limitations on people just make them less likely to play?

Vaktathi
08-10-2012, 00:25
I wouldn't limit them at all. It's a gw authorised part of the codexes, doesn't putting these sorts of limitations on people just make them less likely to play?As much as I think GW has hosed flyer implementation, I'd agree with this statement, and for tournaments, the design studio already came right out and said that organized competitive play was not something they intended the game for, so let people go wild.

Aside from that however, GW really didn't implement flyers particularly well, too low cost on *most*, too high AV, too much damage mitigation, they essentially just end up being superior iterations of ground based vehicles.

ehlijen
08-10-2012, 02:58
The inability of a flyer to keep firepower concentrated on one target (unless that ork mob is reeeeally spread out) means they do have significant drawbacks over ground vehicles, even with vector dancer. They are not actually guaranteed the first shot; interceptor weapons get a free attack just before they fire. They get free pick of target on arrival, but after that their movement rules will seem the drastically reduced in flexibility. Having three TL lascannon and only some gretchin you can get them to point at is frustrating. Extreme example, but that's the weakness of flyers and it's factored into their cost, I dare say, so armies need to exploit that.
Yes, some flyers can just go into skimmer mode and avoid that, but then they lose all that flyer status protection and are still on stupidly high bases, probably without cover.

Yes, AV12 is too much, yes the Vendetta is stupidly undercosted, but assuming those things are fixed, flyers wouldn't destroy the game. They still don't belong in this scale in the quantity now available, but they wouldn't kill the game.

Treadhead_1st
08-10-2012, 03:17
I voted "Yes, but only if spammed" in the poll.

I love the addition of Flyers into the game - yes, it was to sell models (it's almost as if GW were a company that makes models and not a charity!) and we have had some damn fine models (the Razorwing, Ork Bommas, the Scythes). They add a nice tactical element to the game - sure, they may appear a little "out of scale" for the battlefield, but without a "Hover" mode they are essentially making "combat passes" anyway and only engaging for a few turns of the battle. The flyers differ between designed for shredding ground-targets (which makes them weak to other flyers) or for protecting your own army from other flyers (but being less good against ground targets). Whilst there is some duality as anti-vehicle guns can be fired at ground-targets, what I mean is this: the Razorwing can butcher infantry with Disintegrator Cannons, Splinter Cannon and Missiles, whilst a Storm Talon can make a mess of Flyers with Assault Cannon, Lascannon/Skyhammers. Even single Flyers can be customised for cost/benefit: Storm Ravens can have good AI firepower but little AT/Flyer power (Plasma Cannon, Cyclones, Hurricane Bolters), and same with the Ork Bomma variants.

At the moment there do seem to be too few counters - either grab a flyer of your own, or take a Fortification. The Chaos Codex seems to have balanced things quite well - you have a Flyer that can hurt others (even Vector Strike) and Havocks can take Flakk Missiles (whilst still being effective against infantry/armour too), but the force wasn't stuffed full of anti-flyer weaponry that will render flyers into a pointless waste. Hopefully other Codexes will go downs this route, and I think that flyers will be well-balanced in the game.

That is not to say they are without problems - the Vendetta was always too good for its points, and it has had a major buff with the upgrade to Flyer status. It has far too high an armour value - AV12 is just obscene on this thing. I'm still not sure with the Storm Raven - if it is actually used as a transport then it would be suicidal with AV11 (losing the SR, a Squad and a Dreadnought in one go), but it is a little too tough for the current AA weapons to take out. At the same time, the presence of AV12 Flyers makes the Icarus Lascannon a tempting choice on Fortifications, which grants a little longer lifespan to the lower-armoured Flyers (by virtue of not dealing with a Quad Gun!). By far the largest problem is spam. A single Vendetta is a pain (and undercosted) but can be dealt with (even without a single AA weapon), but 9 is obscene. The same goes for the Necron Scythe-spam, if not moreso as the units deployed on-the-board are far more resilient (and usually smaller, thus can hide more easily). Hopefully the spam will be reduced when more Codexes are released - either directly through adding more AA weaponry (such as the Chaos book), or indirectly by making the compulsory "on the board" units much more easy to kill (as, I suspect, Tau will be able to).

All-in-all, I think they are fine and add some great things to the game, but they can be a detriment if spammed (like everything else that has been spammed over the decades).

Chacim
08-10-2012, 03:27
On a 6 x4 table, my group has found that you can maneuver 6 flyers around but with some difficulty. In terms of AA, the quad gun is an excellent choice. Also TL lascannons and multimeltas also work well too. When I play Tau I can knock down flyers fairly easily. Orks as well. BAs and GKs have an excellent flyer. IG too. With the allies rule you can bring flyers yourself or even the hydra flak tanks or whatever they are called (the IG AA tank). If your local gaming group spams flyers like it's no ones business then take a quad gun with TL lascannons and melts guns (you know the stuff you have loads of anyway) and shoot them out of the air!

bad dice
08-10-2012, 08:47
I wouldn't limit them at all. It's a gw authorised part of the codexes, doesn't putting these sorts of limitations on people just make them less likely to play?

Usely not over here since there is no fun to be had playing against 11 necron fliers changes are that if ppl know that if they dont have to face that they are more likely to turn up.

Also if you look at the poll almost 50% of the ppl think the game gets hurt if they get spamed. So if I was looking to please a crowd limiting them might be a idea.

TheBearminator
08-10-2012, 08:54
As of now, I'd say flyers ruin the game if spammed. I mean come on, am I supposed to bring an aegis defence line with me every time I launch an attack on a necron planet? Are tyranids supposed to play with aegis defence lines?

Maidel
08-10-2012, 10:45
As of now, I'd say flyers ruin the game if spammed. I mean come on, am I supposed to bring an aegis defence line with me every time I launch an attack on a necron planet? Are tyranids supposed to play with aegis defence lines?

Well I would have said that any decent non imperial player would simply create their own version in keeping with their own army, but that's just me.

Surely it's just another part of the game and the tactics need to evolve. Simply HAVING to take anti air weapons should be no more problematic than HAVING to take guns that can penetrate av 14.

TheBearminator
08-10-2012, 11:22
I stick with my opinion for now. When there are so few anti-air guns in the game there is no fun playing against an all out flying army. But I hope in time they will add to the dynamics of the game.

Hrw-Amen
08-10-2012, 11:33
I just think the board space represents such a small part of the battle field that flyers in real life would be overhead and gone in a slit second leaving little if any time if any to react. They are OK in large games like Apocalypse but in W40K they do fit the nature of those small battles.

HereticHammer01
08-10-2012, 11:36
Yeah I think they will add to the game in time, it does seem obligatory to take a flyer or flyer defense, but is that really such a bad thing? Only when spammed does it become a problem but like others have said that is true for other units. More unit types should add diversity. If flyers weren't so effective, nobody would bother to change up their armies to include them and they would just be neglected, which would lead to people complaining they are pointless.

Daedalus81
08-10-2012, 11:41
Has anyone been following tournaments and seeing if flyer spam is actually taking top tables?

Maidel
08-10-2012, 13:50
I stick with my opinion for now. When there are so few anti-air guns in the game there is no fun playing against an all out flying army. But I hope in time they will add to the dynamics of the game.

Serious question here - can any army actually make an all flying army? Wouldnt they instantly lose on turn one if they didnt deploy anything?

Poseidal
08-10-2012, 14:00
Isn't the Necron dedicated Transport a flyer? If it is, just buy one for each warrior squad and your HQ rides with them.

mughi3
08-10-2012, 14:01
I think a point also needs to be added about how they changed certain flyers to make them fit into 4th/5th ed.

Originally flyer rules were a bit messy with interupting your opponants movement phase, call it MK1 rules.

refined by FW in apocalypse games(MKII) it was pretty usable for gameplay because-

AV-
all flyers in the game were AV10 or 11 save a couple special ones like the thunderhawk(AV12) and the manta(AV12), which means nearly any gun can hurt them.
by forcing valks/storm ravens into the game early they had to buff the armor beyond what it ever should have been to make them "skimmers" instead of the flyer rules balance of range penalties and movement requirements.

ASSAULT-
in the old rules any jump capable unit could assault a flyer and it even shows up in the books as well as the space marine video game(storm boys Vs valks)

MOVEMENT-
Previously a flyer had to move a minimum of 36" or it would crash and die or it had to go to hover. otherwise turns and such were not important
they also buffed survivabilty as old rules said an immobilised non-superheavy flyer crashed and burned and killed everything aboard, now they just vector lock.

while i am happy to see them in the core game, i think they should have left most of the rules as they were to avoid overbuffing aircraft, however they are new release models, so selling them is GWs priority mission. what better way to do it than just give them better rules so people feel they have to take them.

Daedalus81
08-10-2012, 14:03
Serious question here - can any army actually make an all flying army? Wouldnt they instantly lose on turn one if they didnt deploy anything?

Yes - they need to deploy a unit. If it isn't hidden well they could still lose turn 1.

Haravikk
08-10-2012, 14:13
by forcing valks/storm ravens into the game early they had to buff the armor beyond what it ever should have been to make them "skimmers" instead of the flyer rules balance of range penalties and movement requirements.
I think that this is probably the most important issue; I think that most vehicles that were simply Fast Skimmers before should go back to how they were, and leave Flyer for recent additions that fit properly. Ork jets and the Heldrake would seem fine, with everything else as it was.
I mean the Storm Talon and Storm Raven don't look much like high speed flyers anyway, with the former seeming more like an attack helicopter (better represented by fast skimmer IMO) and the latter too lumbering to get to any practical speed or make much of a strafing run anyway, certainly not within the scale of 40k games.

DaHedd
08-10-2012, 14:33
Id say that Vendettas should lose the multiples in a squadron rule and lose at least half their carrying capacity if not all of it. There is precident for this in the game, the Razorback losing 5 models over the rhino and the Hellhound losing all its troop capacity both due to them sporting bigger guns.

If you want a Gunship use the Vulture rules from FW, dont like the kit, use the vendetta but class it as a Vulture. It seems unfair and very overpowered to sport such a rise in firepower for no penalty. If you want a real life comparison (as much as i hate doing it for 40k) look at the Cobra. It started off as a Huey uh1 then when they realise they needed a dedicated gunship they ditched the troop capacity all together. Even now Helicopters such as Blackhawks and Lynx sport at maximum a mini gun or 2, those that carry even unguided rockets tend not to carry troops.

And before folk start having a go at me for being anti Guard the Imperial Guard are the only real force i have now. I just realise when something is ott.

Haravikk
08-10-2012, 14:39
Id say that Vendettas should lose the multiples in a squadron rule and lose at least half their carrying capacity if not all of it. There is precident for this in the game, the Razorback losing 5 models over the rhino and the Hellhound losing all its troop capacity both due to them sporting bigger guns.
Actually an even better precedent would be the Land Raider Crusader; they may have tweaked the fluff a bit but when it was introduced it specifically described the larger passenger capacity as a result of removing the power systems needed for the lascannons; those things have got to take up a lot of space, and a lot of weight for a flyer.

IcedCrow
08-10-2012, 14:46
Yeah. Flyers are cool. Spam is what the problem is...

Easy E
08-10-2012, 19:01
Spam of any variety sucks. Unless it is made by Hormel, and then it is delicious.

Fliers aren't the problem so much as the match up of player types. You have to make sure you talk with the person you are going to play against to make sure you have a similar thought process on playing the game. If you don't click, then no amount of flyers will matter.

nedius
08-10-2012, 19:44
The poll is certainly showing interesting results.

70% currently think fliers at least can hurt the game; a strong suggestion that what ever else, their implementation has been poor. Less than 27% think they are ok as they are. The thing is with such things I just want to know more! Do they run a flier-heavy list? Do they have an army that has good AA abilities?

And how many of the 'yes' votes are due to game play? How many due to issues of scale?

This is turning into a pretty interesting thread!

The_Klobb_Maniac
08-10-2012, 20:27
It's more accurate to say that "spam ruins the game" and less that "flyers ruin the game." Spammed Oblits + Lash was annoying. Spammed Chims and Spammed Razors are annoying. Spammed flyers are annoying.

Spammed stuff is annoying. The fact that flyers are the latest breed is unfair to flyers.

That said, many lists (even themed) are spam; just not the most optimal unit. I have a footslogging guard (there's like.. 3-4 units you'll use in the list..), anyone with Cults are usually spammed pretty heavily. Maybe my comment should be amended that "Tourny spam lists" are annoying; simply because it's taking an unfairly optimal choice over and over. If the choice had been balanced the list would merely be spam and not annoying.