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_Chimaera
07-10-2012, 17:24
This caught my eye on Dakka. Maybe they will go with the bunker that is supposedly on route?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/480807.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/418511-.html

All Cing Eye
07-10-2012, 17:26
Good spot.

Those do look like a new plastic kit. What are those bronze Aquila's supposed to be? tank traps?

_Chimaera
07-10-2012, 17:28
Good spot.

Those do look like a new plastic kit. What are those bronze Aquila's supposed to be? tank traps?

Not sure what they are meant to be, just aesthetic I guess. The stupid thing is I must have looked at that picture 10 times browsing through the Codex and never spotted it. I am glad someone out there did.

I am really hoping they are the start of a new Space Marines fortifications roll out and the fabled Astartes Battle Fortress is made a reality. After all, what could the SM's get plastic wise in their next Codex?

Charax
07-10-2012, 17:31
Looks like they're just part of the defence line

Rogue Star
07-10-2012, 17:51
Looks like they're just part of the defence line

They look quite different to me?

Haravikk
07-10-2012, 17:56
Interesting, though I'm not sure exactly what it's supposed to be? It doesn't look much like a trench, though I suppose it wouldn't be hard to make a base for it and do some piled dirt. The icons also seem weird; they don't look like they actually fit onto it; I assume they'd be to look like supports bit it's a bit odd-looking.

It's of course entirely possible the picture is just bits and it doesn't represent a finished kit. Still, the possibility is interesting; I'm always eager for more scenery, though while the imperium is still a big majority it would be nice to see something for other races. Even the orks only get a few barricades.

Theocracity
07-10-2012, 19:09
I really like those piles of Guardsmen skeletons out front.

I wonder how these will be different from an Aegis, role-wise.

Charax
07-10-2012, 19:20
They look quite different to me?
:rolleyes:

Part of the new defence line being showcased in the image.​ Must I spell out everything?

MiyamatoMusashi
07-10-2012, 19:43
Must I spell out everything?

Communication is a two-person process.

Rogue Star
07-10-2012, 20:06
:rolleyes:

Part of the new defence line being showcased in the image.​ Must I spell out everything?

In this case? Yes, because I wouldn't know anything about a new defence line set of terrain, oh master of rumours and news. Rest assured I will submit myself to punishment for daring not to keep up on future releases. :angel:

Shibboleth
07-10-2012, 20:55
:rolleyes:

Part of the new defence line being showcased in the image.​ Must I spell out everything?
Seeing as there's apparently two 'defense lines', the Aegis and the one only you know about, then Yes...

_Chimaera
07-10-2012, 21:24
I really like those piles of Guardsmen skeletons out front.

I wonder how these will be different from an Aegis, role-wise.

I am sort of hoping you don't have to have the Guardsmen skeletons piled up next to them. it would be nice to have a choice that you could butt them up or not but from the look of them they come as one?

It definitely seems more of a trench line as it is shown with two sides to each line in the picture although for sure that will be optional. It would be cool if they had some tie in to the bunker that has been mooted to come with the Dark Angels release.

It could make quite a cool outer firebase defence line/perimeter.

Another interesting snippet from that thread below.


Stickmonkey wrote:
I heard a long time ago about tau, nid, ork, and eldar terrain being worked on, I can certainly see these coming with codex releases as fortifications. Xenos terrain is sorely missing, but the question is can they sell it? I think if it's army themed and in the codex they can.



librerian_samae wrote:
I can back up stick on the xenos terrain for what it's worth, it's been at least ready to be produced for 2ish years, about 2-3 gamesdays back Jez and phil when talking about dark eldar during their preview and were saying about webway kits etc being done and awesome.

At the time however all that was released was the small webway template, maybe they have kept all the xenos terrain back for a big release and/or gap in the release schedule

silverstu
07-10-2012, 22:40
I wonder if these "multiple" fortification kits are ready to go will be get a wave release of terrain for 40k? Maybe with race specific pieces as well as imperial stuff?
That fortified line does look really good- i like the dead guardsmen and the aquila shields [covering entry points?/separate emplacements?].

Hragnar Goreskull
07-10-2012, 23:01
FW used to have a trench system that they took off the website some time ago. Maybe those were discontinued to make room for this new system? The look great if thats the case

Baneboss
07-10-2012, 23:14
I love those dead guardsmen! Pretty original. I believe ill buy this set when (or if) it comes out.

Bigglesworth
07-10-2012, 23:14
FW used to have a trench system that they took off the website some time ago. Maybe those were discontinued to make room for this new system? The look great if thats the case

I think it was mainly because the demand dropped and the molds broke down, it looks like you can just plonk these defense lines on the table, while the the FW ones needed to be sunk into the board, so while these ones would be less realistic, they would be better for most gamers.

static grass
07-10-2012, 23:29
Wow that's alot of skulls. I take it that in the Grimdark future we don't bury the dead anymore we just leave them where they fall...

Bigglesworth
07-10-2012, 23:40
Wow that's alot of skulls. I take it that in the Grimdark future we don't bury the dead anymore we just leave them where they fall...

Well... yeah, that's how it is lol, billions sacrificed every day only so many shovels to go round.

They could be fairly fresh and just been rotted away by some sorcery

MajorWesJanson
07-10-2012, 23:50
They look like they are trench sections, as opposed to the Aegis Defense line which is a wall. The regular look seems to imply that they are either resin and cast for pictures, or a plastic kit. Imperial symbols and dead guard make it look like is is specifically Imperial Guard focused.

Doppleskanger
08-10-2012, 00:11
If that really is a future release those dead guards are going to find themselves everywhere! Sure, if you play against guard even semi regularly how could you resist covering your bases with those things? I sure wouldn't be able to :D

Cheexsta
08-10-2012, 02:01
Nice find, i quite like them. I hope those dead bodies are separate, they'll be awesome decoration for my Chaos bases :D

The Dude
08-10-2012, 02:15
Interesting. I wonder if it's a plastic kit or just a bunch of resin segments like the Ork Barricades.

The bearded one
08-10-2012, 02:20
Stacks of dead guardsmen = awesome! We ought to have a lot more dead guardsmen lying around anyway. They're supposed to come in insane numbers, utterly expendable.


Wow that's alot of skulls. I take it that in the Grimdark future we don't bury the dead anymore we just leave them where they fall...

We've done that in the past too. In WWI there was no way to clear out all the bodies between the trenches. In fact on the battlefield near Verdun they're presently still uncovering remains every so often.

Hendarion
08-10-2012, 05:35
Wow that's alot of skulls. I take it that in the Grimdark future we don't bury the dead anymore we just leave them where they fall...
Actually you do bury them, just not their skulls... most of the time at least.

prowla
08-10-2012, 07:18
I don't recall seeing any of those bits either, and there's a lot of dead guardsmen.. although the skull&shield motif does look a bit Warhammerish. But yeah, I would guess it's a generic version of the Aegis.

Zark the Damned
08-10-2012, 16:52
Hoping it's just a bad camera angle, but the width of the floor inside the 'trench' doesn't seem to be wide enough to hold IG Weapon Teams, which strikes me as particularly short-sighted of the designers. Unless they are also going to release special 'Heavy Weapon Emplacement' sections.

Still, looking nice. May pick some up if they get released and I start working on my 40k scenery collection again.

Aryllon
08-10-2012, 17:14
Well... yeah, that's how it is lol, billions sacrificed every day only so many shovels to go round.

In the 41st millennium, smart businessmen make shovels.

I totally understand the reasoning behind imperial scenery, but man it would be nice to play on a xeno themed board once in a while! Exodite township would be cool. Or Tau city.

static grass
08-10-2012, 17:27
Stacks of dead guardsmen = awesome! We ought to have a lot more dead guardsmen lying around anyway. They're supposed to come in insane numbers, utterly expendable.



We've done that in the past too. In WWI there was no way to clear out all the bodies between the trenches. In fact on the battlefield near Verdun they're presently still uncovering remains every so often.

This is sadly true but I was more surprised that there would be quite so many skulls just along the edge of the trench itself... Trench of Skulls it is then :D

But it seems Hendarion has it sussed.

nosebiter
08-10-2012, 17:54
So more imperial centric terrain. Great.

Sooooo dull.

Cthell
08-10-2012, 18:20
We've done that in the past too. In WWI there was no way to clear out all the bodies between the trenches. In fact on the battlefield near Verdun they're presently still uncovering remains every so often.

Heck, during the island hopping campaigns of WW2 they actually used the fallen in place of sandbags as reinforcement for trench parapets - if you're getting machine-gunned, I imagine that you'll accept any cover you can get. Mind you, the smell and the flies were apparently beyond horrendous

Beppo1234
09-10-2012, 02:57
So more imperial centric terrain. Great.

Sooooo dull.

they rule the whole galaxy... 99% of the architecture on battlefields is going to be imperial.

Baneboss
09-10-2012, 06:09
So more imperial centric terrain. Great.

Sooooo dull.

Then stop invading Imperial worlds you xenos scum!

Dead gurdsmen buys it for me.

shabbadoo
09-10-2012, 06:21
This stuff looks plastic to me. Note the lack of undercuts on the skulls in various places (that isn't really a factor on resin castings). It is really obvious on the skull just left of the IG armored skeleton at the far right front. I see some folks wanting less skeletons on their fortifications cutting away the skeletons to use for base dressing on their models. Chaos Marines...striding over the dessicated remains of Imperial lackeys! :D

anselminus
09-10-2012, 06:38
nice trench section, i think if they come one day it will be in plastic, these terrain don't correspond to FW design.

Faeslayer
09-10-2012, 07:55
I would certainly describe that as some kind of defence wall. The sort of defence wall that wouldn't look totally out of place as part of, say, a battle fortress.

_Chimaera
09-10-2012, 18:37
I would certainly describe that as some kind of defence wall. The sort of defence wall that wouldn't look totally out of place as part of, say, a battle fortress.

LOL my thoughts exactly. I know the Hobbit rumour list Astartes Battle Fortress got foo foo'd but I live in hope.

Mad Hatter
10-10-2012, 12:10
The fortress is real... it has been seen..

orik
10-10-2012, 12:27
where/when exactly... and by whom?

_Chimaera
10-10-2012, 22:42
Come on Mad Hatter spill the beans if what you are saying is true?

If you are on a wind up you know we are going to have to get the big sticks out :)

Just for those who never saw the defunct Hobbit thread list for the said Astartes Battle Fortress. I have cut and pasted it below.

Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Defence Wall Plastic- box (land raider size)
Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Tower / Pillar of Heroes Plastic- box (land raider size)
Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Monastery Plastic- box (oversize)

Here is a parting thought before I turn on for the night & this only crossed my mind after revisiting the Hobbit list.

These supposed new trenches may not actually be trenches, we may just be assuming they are. It was mentioned earlier that they have the Imperial symbols spaced between them and are nothing like the Aegis Defence line and follow a completely different aesthetic.

So what about if they aren't actually trenches but the upper part of the Defence Wall for the Astartes Battle Fortress or whatever it may be called. They would then be much more in keeping with a Fortress aesthetic like the Fortress of Redemption.

GW may have been sneaky in how they portrayed them in that picture but maybe they are not trenches but have just been used that way. Maybe the dead guardsmen were added as some sort of red herring to disguise their true nature?

Anyway I am probably just clutching at straws but those walls/trenches would be much more befiting at the top of a defence wall than a stand alone trench line?

Shibboleth
11-10-2012, 02:27
That sounds reasonable, except the line is a bit too zig-zaggy for a wall.

RedemptionNL
11-10-2012, 06:50
That, and those Imperial Guard corpse piles seem to lack undercuts, which probably means they're integrated into that segment.

The Dude
11-10-2012, 07:02
That, and those Imperial Guard corpse piles seem to lack undercuts, which probably means they're integrated into that segment.

It's a VERY big pile of corpses :p

RedemptionNL
11-10-2012, 07:07
I suppose they could use it as an access ramp in that case? :)

Son of Morkai
11-10-2012, 14:19
Imperial Guard corpses are a cheaper building material than concrete. :p

DoctorTom
11-10-2012, 15:56
This is sadly true but I was more surprised that there would be quite so many skulls just along the edge of the trench itself... Trench of Skulls it is then :D.

The skulls are what's left of the people Commissars shot in order to improve morale. ;)

shaso_iceborn
11-10-2012, 18:23
The fortress is real... it has been seen..

Russ,

Opened up a can of worms a little early don't you think?


On topic, The battle fortress has been rumoured to be seen in pre-production sprues according to my sources.

_Chimaera
11-10-2012, 18:36
That sounds reasonable, except the line is a bit too zig-zaggy for a wall.

When you look at the them they are set that way but look a bit closer and they would make a hexagonal shape quite easily a bit like the FoR.


Russ,

Opened up a can of worms a little early don't you think?


On topic, The battle fortress has been rumoured to be seen in pre-production sprues according to my sources.

Thanks for that tidbit. Umm strange the rumour guys haven't picked up on this.

If the Fortress rumour is true it would open up the Hobbit can of worms list again. Maybe the Orks will also be getting their Fort that was also on that list?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?349410-HUGE-40k-(-amp-Hobbit)-release-list

Hokiecow
11-10-2012, 20:42
Initially, weren't the rumour guys were backing up the list until Hastings nixed it?

dean
11-10-2012, 20:53
Well I imagine that if the Hobbit list was accurate the GW guys are scrableing to change it up just so that we wont know what's next. Hastings is voiding it cause his sources are voiding it regardless of whether it was accurate at one time or not

ctsteel
12-10-2012, 23:28
One thing I note in the image is that the pile of guardsmen bodies is both on the front of the foreground wall (on the outside of the direction the occupying guard are facing) AND also on the walls in the background of the image, but facing in the same direction (as the guardsmen face). If that walled area is meant to be an enclosure of some kind, it would seem odd to have bodies stacked up in 'front' of both walls from the perspective of the viewer. This leads me to think that the sections are moulded with the guardsmen as part of it, and the modellers have placed the wall sections in such a way as to show the same side to the camera (ie the bodies-piled side).

_Chimaera
13-10-2012, 02:03
One thing I note in the image is that the pile of guardsmen bodies is both on the front of the foreground wall (on the outside of the direction the occupying guard are facing) AND also on the walls in the background of the image, but facing in the same direction (as the guardsmen face). If that walled area is meant to be an enclosure of some kind, it would seem odd to have bodies stacked up in 'front' of both walls from the perspective of the viewer. This leads me to think that the sections are moulded with the guardsmen as part of it, and the modellers have placed the wall sections in such a way as to show the same side to the camera (ie the bodies-piled side).

You make a good point and this would possibly suggest these are not a new trenches kit but possibly part of something else? Why would you have dead Guardmen on the reverse/friendly side of a trench? Unless these are not meant to be presented this way or there is non piled up corpses on other sections?

ctsteel
13-10-2012, 08:16
They could 'just' be a trench kit, but let's say (this is just speculative) you have 6 sections in the box, and 2 of those have cadian guard bodies moulded in. The GW scenery team who made the terrain for that particular picture, may have just taken a number of the 'dead guard' sections (from multiple kits perhaps) and used them in such a way that you can see the 'bodies' side from the viewer's perspective.

Chances are both sides are identical in terms of posing/angle of the walls and aquilas - that way you can flip them round and position them however you want. So some sections have the bodies, some may have some other feature like a vox unit, and some are plain on both sides, but it's up to us how we arrange them.

Aryllon
13-10-2012, 09:32
It just looks like two lines of trenches, bodies are exactly where they should be... on the front, in both cases.

silverstu
13-10-2012, 10:09
It just looks like two lines of trenches, bodies are exactly where they should be... on the front, in both cases.

Yes- as can be seen by the aquila blast shields/entry points being on the same side in both sets of trenches.

Xeones
15-10-2012, 21:51
Also note that the "front" edge of the trench (or whatever it is) has spikes on it on both the front and the back fortification but the back edge does not --leading me to assume that both the front and the rear fortifications have a definite direction that they face and both are facing toward the camera.

shaso_iceborn
15-10-2012, 22:27
Ok, I really shouldn't but I have heard about a new "expansion"? that will deal with fortifications. The trenches are but one part of that "expansion". Trying to get more out of my source but their staying tight lipped for now.

By "expansion" I mean a minor supplement to the rules not an actual expansion.

Xeones
15-10-2012, 22:38
By "expansion" I mean a minor supplement to the rules not an actual expansion.
So basically instead of something like the Spearhead expansion, it'll be more like a few more "named" terrain items with specific special rules --ala Sky Shield, Aegis Defence Line, et al-- with their rules released in a WD article?

prowla
15-10-2012, 22:38
Ok, I really shouldn't but I have heard about a new "expansion"? that will deal with fortifications. The trenches are but one part of that "expansion". Trying to get more out of my source but their staying tight lipped for now.

By "expansion" I mean a minor supplement to the rules not an actual expansion.

Probably a WD supplement, then. Makes sense; it seems to me GW is very conscious about making the rules help to sell the models - the larger emphasis on terrain in 6th edition would mean that there's more terrain pieces inbound - not to mention, those mentioned in the 6e book are specifically introduced as imperial pieces and not as "generic fortress" or "generic defense line". Adding more pieces later and not putting them in the BRB sounds very much like a GW sales tactic.

silverstu
16-10-2012, 20:15
Any chance of a xenos kit in this rumoured expansion??:shifty:

TK-421
16-10-2012, 20:35
Any chance of a xenos kit in this rumoured expansion??:shifty:

If I know GW then no I admire your optimism

shaso_iceborn
16-10-2012, 21:26
So basically instead of something like the Spearhead expansion, it'll be more like a few more "named" terrain items with specific special rules --ala Sky Shield, Aegis Defence Line, et al-- with their rules released in a WD article?

Basically, but with several named pieces and a few Xenos ones as well, though I understand it will be bigger than Spearhead but not an actual expansion.


Probably a WD supplement, then. Makes sense; it seems to me GW is very conscious about making the rules help to sell the models - the larger emphasis on terrain in 6th edition would mean that there's more terrain pieces inbound - not to mention, those mentioned in the 6e book are specifically introduced as imperial pieces and not as "generic fortress" or "generic defense line". Adding more pieces later and not putting them in the BRB sounds very much like a GW sales tactic.

Good guess see above.


Any chance of a xenos kit in this rumoured expansion??:shifty:

There are some according to my source, He didn't say what. However, he did mention that it's not all "Imperial" Terrain

MajorWesJanson
16-10-2012, 22:07
Basically, but with several named pieces and a few Xenos ones as well, though I understand it will be bigger than Spearhead but not an actual expansion.


So more like the Liber Apocalyptica datasheets they were adding for a while. Hopefully they go the route of additional booklets like they did for Daemons. Not only are they easier to transport than full White Dwarves, they keep the new rules concentrated in one place.

silverstu
16-10-2012, 22:38
If I know GW then no I admire your optimism

That's me! Mr Optimistic!


...... a few Xenos ones ..


There are some according to my source, He didn't say what. However, he did mention that it's not all "Imperial" Terrain

Cheers!Thats good to hear!

Megacut
23-10-2012, 07:56
I saw the new unreleased White Dwarf today, this in the pre-order section for AUS$205/NZ$240. You get 3 defense lines, 2 encampments and 1 bunker, plus a bunch of barricades. It has special sections for heavy weapons teams. It looked quite extensive. There was a bunch of new Chaos too, plus some old Chaos being re-done in finecast.

DarkWarrior1981
23-10-2012, 08:16
That's cool. Thanks for the info!

Shibboleth
23-10-2012, 08:46
...There was a bunch of new Chaos too, plus some old Chaos being re-done in finecast.
Thanks for the info,
but this would be the fantasy WoC then, or more CSM's?

RedemptionNL
23-10-2012, 09:47
AUS$205? That's even more than the Fortress of Redemption or Imperial Strongpoint. So that's either a huge kit, some sort of megabundle or hugely overpriced. :)

The Dude
23-10-2012, 09:54
I'm guessing mega bundle. They'll likely release the separate elements individually later, much like the different imperial building bundles.

Megacut
23-10-2012, 10:20
I think it was CSM. I didn't really look at them much. It looked like marines of some sort, but don't take my word for it. And like I said, new finecast stuff. Judging by how the wall was shown, I'm thinking megabundle. The box cover showed the whole defence line with some smaller barricades about it.

silverstu
23-10-2012, 10:43
Fantasy warriors of chaos has mentioned in the relevant fantasy rumour thread as being in the WD [warshrine etc..].
The fortifications do sound like a bundle- like the imperial sector? Sounds great- hopefully will see more diverse[xenos!] terrain/fortifications over the next 6 months.

RedemptionNL
23-10-2012, 10:57
I'm guessing mega bundle. They'll likely release the separate elements individually later, much like the different imperial building bundles.
Aye, but even the current bundles, the Imperial Strongpoint and Imperial Sector, are AUS$150, AUS$55 less than the reported cost of this bundle. That has to got to be some serious kit. :)

BTJ
23-10-2012, 11:24
Megacut, would it be possible if you could get any pictures? Also, is there any mention of there beinany Christmas army bundles?

Megacut
23-10-2012, 11:34
No possibility whatsoever I'm afraid. The WD in question was shown to me by an employee of the store who was casually reading it in the store. I don't remember anything about bundles. But I only really skimmed it anyway, all I remember is this terrain and some massive release of new and redone Chaos.

BTJ
23-10-2012, 11:42
No worries, I just wasn't sure how you had access, so it was worth a shot. Sounds likely that there will be anyway, the price tag on that sounds like it's the same price as last year's megaforce boxes. I wonder what new chaos marines there are though, they didn't exactly show anything new in the Codex which is odd if the new stuff was only a month out. Maybe it is fantasy CHaos that's coming

RedemptionNL
23-10-2012, 12:05
I assume any Christmas deals would be in the December White Dwarf instead of November's issue?

BTJ
23-10-2012, 12:37
I assume any Christmas deals would be in the December White Dwarf instead of November's issue?

They came out in November the last two years, and were apparently due last friday

RedemptionNL
23-10-2012, 13:09
They came out in November the last two years, and were apparently due last friday

Ah, fair enough. Just noticed this on Faeit 212's blog (http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-latest-on-bundles.html) too, so it seems they're delayed.
Ah well, hopefully we have some White Dwarf scans somewhere today or tomorrow, like they usually do. As I like GW's terrain kits, I'm very curious on how these turned out. :)

BTJ
23-10-2012, 13:12
According to the WHFB rumours board, there's two for fantasy, so I reckon the same for each of the other games as well

TimLeeson
23-10-2012, 15:12
all looks like Fantasy warriors of chaos to me, going by this list of stuff : http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/october-27th-releases-revealed.html

underhivetrader
23-10-2012, 21:37
So basically instead of something like the Spearhead expansion, it'll be more like a few more "named" terrain items with specific special rules --ala Sky Shield, Aegis Defence Line, et al-- with their rules released in a WD article?

I really hope not WD articles are nice but you end up taking half a dozen WD's to any event plus the usual suspects rules, codex, note pad, dice etc. Over doing that and I don't own an Ipad.

Other than that I would love too see even half the stuff on that Ork list get released, might be a new codex in the next year? Current book is what five (?) years old now.

Can see myself getting several Ork Klan Forts

Shibboleth
24-10-2012, 04:02
I saw the new unreleased White Dwarf today, this in the pre-order section for AUS$205/NZ$240. You get 3 defense lines, 2 encampments and 1 bunker, plus a bunch of barricades. It has special sections for heavy weapons teams. It looked quite extensive. There was a bunch of new Chaos too, plus some old Chaos being re-done in finecast.
There are pics for WoC, how come no pics for this?:cries:

The Dude
24-10-2012, 05:10
There are pics for WoC, how come no pics for this?:cries:

Entierly likely the pic taker was onluy interested in the WoC stuff. The Cultists only snuck in because they're on the same page as the WoC weapon options ;)

The French Guy
24-10-2012, 08:27
http://s1306.photobucket.com/albums/s579/kurl1/?action=view&current=Scan122980003_zps82ca7add.jpg

Here you go guys, those defenses look nice!

Kurl Veranek
24-10-2012, 08:27
I postet the pics of the fortifications just now. Sorry I must have mistaken them for self made terrain. 130€ for the bundle btw

silverstu
24-10-2012, 08:31
Cheers for sharing Kurl!
Those fortifications look pretty nifty- the bunkers in particular look great.

stahly
24-10-2012, 08:40
Nice - but expensive.

RedemptionNL
24-10-2012, 08:49
Ah, very nice! Is the mega bundle going to be a permanent item, or a limited release? And are there any savings or is it going to be one of the bundles where buying everything separately costs just as much?

VenomBlood
24-10-2012, 09:14
Fortifications look good side by side with IG tanks. Well done and not bad at all, I believe so at least.

eldargal
24-10-2012, 09:14
They look really very impressive, I'm surprised. To date I haven't liked GWs Imperium terrain as much as their WFB stuff.

Shibboleth
24-10-2012, 09:30
Thanks Kurl!
Most impressive.

prowla
24-10-2012, 09:44
Actually, I'm not very impressed by those fortifications. Let's see if additional pics make it nicer.

I'm happy that we get more easily scratchbuildable stuff, though :)

RedemptionNL
24-10-2012, 09:59
Any idea what the official name is of the set?

Zark the Damned
24-10-2012, 10:02
I like the new trenches, can see myself picking a set up at some point. I just hope the piles of corpses are optional as no-one around here plays Cadians.

Lance-a-lot
24-10-2012, 11:36
155733
They look really nice!
Wallet hurts, btw.. :D

BTJ
24-10-2012, 12:23
I like them quite a bit, can see myself picking them up. Not as amazing the the FW ones were though :(

The Dude
24-10-2012, 12:25
So the "back" wall has stacks of ammo crates.

RedemptionNL
24-10-2012, 12:27
I like them quite a bit, can see myself picking them up. Not as amazing the the FW ones were though :(
Of course, the FW ones required you to sink them into your gameboard. More realistic, but not something everyone was able/willing to do.

RedemptionNL
24-10-2012, 12:42
Ah, the official name is apparently is the 'Wall of Martyrs'. Suitably grim dark. :)

Charax
24-10-2012, 12:44
the "Martyrs" presumably being everyone who was sacrificed so that their skulls could be used in its construction

MajorWesJanson
24-10-2012, 12:50
Ooh, I'll have to grab a set. I wonder if they will have new rules for it as a purchasable fortification, or if it is just scenery.

eldargal
24-10-2012, 13:27
I don't think all the dead chaps are load bearing, I think they died after it was built.

the "Martyrs" presumably being everyone who was sacrificed so that their skulls could be used in its construction

Aryllon
24-10-2012, 15:51
Hahaha, I think he was being sarcastic ;)

This kit is really nice. Really really nice. I can definitely see myself using it (defiled) with my fledgling chaos guys.
Awesome!

ChromeZephyr
24-10-2012, 19:04
Interesting. Not cool enough for me to abandon the ones I'm scratchbuilding, but nice nonetheless. Like Wes, I wonder if there will be rules for it.

de Selby
24-10-2012, 19:21
Hey, that does look cooler than the aegis defence line. I thought the terrain went downhill a bit around the time of planetstrike, but I quite like this stuff.

Thanks for pictures.

Commissar Merces
24-10-2012, 19:27
That looks fan freaking tastic

EDIT: Just heard it is $205 AUS?! Can anyone confirm?

dean
24-10-2012, 20:30
That looks fan freaking tastic

EDIT: Just heard it is $205 AUS?! Can anyone confirm?

Seems low... just converted Euro to $168USD....

Theocracity
24-10-2012, 21:17
...is it my lying eyes, or are those new Guard models at the back of the trench line?

I could definitely be mistaken - a blurry image on an iPhone doesnt have the best quality - but I don't recognize those.

Bigglesworth
24-10-2012, 21:23
...is it my lying eyes, or are those new Guard models at the back of the trench line?

I could definitely be mistaken - a blurry image on an iPhone doesnt have the best quality - but I don't recognize those.


Looks like the classic metal storm troopers painted in a new scheme to me, perhaps a finecast release for them?

I.E this lot

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod810031a

Theocracity
24-10-2012, 21:38
Ah, I think you're right. I was under the belief that those models all had masks, so the faces on the ones in the picture were throwing me off. The new paint scheme made it look new too.

Beppo1234
25-10-2012, 03:09
does the defence line have a back and front... or is it just one sided? I can't really tell from the pics if they have just taken two matching pieces and put them back to back, or if they are one larger piece. NM, looks like one big piece, with boxes on one side, and skulls on the other.

another question though: do you think that bunker can be assembled with the lower section on either side of the higher section?

I've been re thinking my gaming table for something like this. Right now I have 3 4x4 tables... which I'm thinking of scraping in favor of 2 4x6 tables, with a raised city area on 1" high density foam... and this defence line looks like a perfect edge for that city area.

The Dude
25-10-2012, 03:20
another question though: do you think that bunker can be assembled with the lower section on either side of the higher section?

Judging from the base at the front they seem to be separate elements, so a good possibility. Then again, the parapet appears to only extend on the near side, and seems to be a single moulded wall, so unless the interior has some detail that works as an exterior wall too, it may only work on the one side.

Azzy
25-10-2012, 03:42
Nice, I can't wait until this is released.

Snitchey
25-10-2012, 09:18
I really like the look of these, has anybody got the price in £ ?

Iron_Fang
25-10-2012, 19:11
Looks like from WD it may be out in a week!

tiger g
25-10-2012, 19:33
Looks like the classic metal storm troopers painted in a new scheme to me, perhaps a finecast release for them?

I.E this lot

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod810031a

I was hoping for the stormtroopers with berets

tiger g
25-10-2012, 19:34
Looks like from WD it may be out in a week!

Out this saturday as per their website announcement yesterday

Tokamak
25-10-2012, 19:43
I'm not sure, could do with some more skulls...

Bigglesworth
25-10-2012, 19:55
I was hoping for the stormtroopers with berets

No, those would be the Classic CLASSIC "who you gonna call?" stormtroopers;)


and Tiger g, do you have a link for this announcement? Have not seen it on their website

tiger g
25-10-2012, 21:28
No, those would be the Classic CLASSIC "who you gonna call?" stormtroopers;)


and Tiger g, do you have a link for this announcement? Have not seen it on their website

Go to the wihite dwarf daily section and look at Wednesday post. It is titled White Dwarf released this Saturday :>))

Iron_Fang
26-10-2012, 08:29
I mean the trenches, they will be out in a week tomorrow I think

underhivetrader
26-10-2012, 10:34
I've just noticed under 40k scenery, they keep adding then removing the crashed aquila lander. I swear it was up there within the last four weeks, now it's gone again.
Sucks cause I've always wanted one but every time I'm ready to buy it's not there.

Balerion
26-10-2012, 13:15
I'm fairly certain the Imperium could afford to equip every Guardsman in the galaxy with a plasma cannon if they only laid off on decorating their disposable, prefab structures for a couple of generations. I have doubts that the Ornamenti-care program is going to stay solvent into the 50th millenium...

eldargal
26-10-2012, 13:21
Not really. One assumes this is all mass produced with moulded scifi-concrete-analogue, it wouldn't be particularly expensive. We used to make very ornate architecture quite cheaply out of cast concrete too, from Second Empire style to Art Deco.

salamandercaptain
26-10-2012, 15:49
iWhite Dwarf (just downloaded on a Friday!) has in at £100, Euro 130 etc.
It looks bloody huge and I for one am sold and I've not even got as far as it's rules yet.

SC

Kijamon
26-10-2012, 16:49
iWhite Dwarf (just downloaded on a Friday!) has in at £100, Euro 130 etc.
It looks bloody huge and I for one am sold and I've not even got as far as it's rules yet.

SC

How many bits are you getting. Bunkers, straights, corners, ends, etc?

salamandercaptain
26-10-2012, 16:54
How many bits are you getting. Bunkers, straights, corners, ends, etc?

1 bunker which looks like it has different r and l sections.
3 defence lines
3 defence emplacements (corner/end bits)

BTJ
26-10-2012, 17:38
1 bunker which looks like it has different r and l sections.
3 defence lines
3 defence emplacements (corner/end bits)

Bundle prices and contents? Or are they next month?

Kijamon
26-10-2012, 17:45
Bundle prices and contents? Or are they next month?

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1939352925 but it's been down since it got so popular

Space Marines and Necrons for 40k, you get a lot of stuff.

Aryllon
26-10-2012, 17:52
Wow yeah, iWhite Dwarf already available.

That link above doesn't seem to show Necrons btw (my wireless is slow, Dwarf is going to take 30 mins to download at this rate...).

anselminus
26-10-2012, 22:42
really hurry to see it in store

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.fr/2012/10/new-fortification-set-from-gw.html

defunct
27-10-2012, 01:34
That trench system looks incredible.

Will the Paint Set be limited numbers again?

Light and Fluffy Time
27-10-2012, 01:36
"Oh yeah man, let's build some trenches! but don't forget to put skulls on them."

suprememidgetoverlord
27-10-2012, 02:06
From the white dwarf, says it's really custumizable.

The giant box is limited time only, no news on smaller ones with the different parts in seperate kits, but I wouldnt be surprised if they would show up next month. A lot like they did with dark vengeance and the limited version; the regular one was only available once the limited sold out.

160$ US 195$ CAN

On a side note, white dward is filled with nice conversion and more design notes on the defense network too. Would have liked rules to use the said defense network, but that might come later I guess.

MajorWesJanson
27-10-2012, 06:05
Absolon over at Dakka posted the box cover:

156134

eldargal
27-10-2012, 06:45
Very pretty, I just hope the kit is modular.

MajorWesJanson
27-10-2012, 07:24
Very pretty, I just hope the kit is modular.

Well, all of those little barricades are designed to be end caps for various sections, and I see several joins, so I'm positive it is modular.

DarkWarrior1981
27-10-2012, 08:29
The amount of stuff is quite okay for 130€/160$ I think. Any info if this will be available from stores or is it GW only?

prowla
27-10-2012, 08:37
Seems that there's enough stuff to split between two or three players.

MajorWesJanson
27-10-2012, 08:50
Seems that there's enough stuff to split between two or three players.

Well, 3 people could each get one annex and set of trenches, but then have to fight over the bunker.

I expect this to be like a spearhead/megaforce bundle, a holiday big set of the defenses all together, while say January we will get individual kits and rules in WD for it.

Goatboy
27-10-2012, 09:20
Hmm I wonder if the hatch on top of the bunker is the right size to also double as a quad gun/lass cannon mount?

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 09:29
It should be. The trenches themselves are wide enough to put the large-base IG heavy weapon teams in and the bunker is wider.
The roof also comes off so you can put guys inside. If you want.

I'm wondering about leaving the backs of the trenches off to in effect double the length of the available wall sections.

Binky
27-10-2012, 09:47
I notice that the new WFB WOC stuff is up for pre-order on the GW website, but the trenches aren't. Does that mean they are a mid month release rather than coming out next weekend as predicted?

eldargal
27-10-2012, 09:50
Yep, November 17 I believe is the release date.

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 10:12
Yep, November 17 I believe is the release date.

Correct, pre-orders on the 10th

MajorWesJanson
27-10-2012, 10:35
Cool, I should have the money to grab one from my FLGS then.

As for the trenches, I wonder if they are two part front and back, or one part, cast from the top down, as it appears from some of the detailing.

duffybear1988
27-10-2012, 10:57
Wow they are nice.

Shame about the price though. Quick question - would you rather own some trenches at an extortionate price, or the aegis defence line, that you can actually field in your army?

eldargal
27-10-2012, 11:08
Extortianate? For what you get most GW terrain is damned good value for money compared to what else is on the market, and the amount of plastic you get in the trench set for one hundred pounds is astounding. It's a bargain, not extortion.

Binky
27-10-2012, 13:23
Strangely White Dwarf says the defence line is available to advance order today and on sale on the 3rd, guess the date changed after WD went to print.

anselminus
27-10-2012, 13:39
i understand limited ed. its true or not?

MajorWesJanson
27-10-2012, 13:51
i understand limited ed. its true or not?

The bundle will likely be limited, but later they will release separate parts as individual kits.

nagash66
27-10-2012, 15:43
Excellent terrain at a solid price :yes:.

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 17:32
Strangely White Dwarf says the defence line is available to advance order today and on sale on the 3rd, guess the date changed after WD went to print.

Yeah the release calendar in the back of the digital edition has updated details.

And slightly OT, but I have to say the digital WD is fantastic. All the usual content plus full-scene zoom on loads of the photos, 360 degree rotating views for new release models, video summaries of battle reports and I don't have to wait for a physical delivery (I hate physical media; waste of resources, slower to acquire and waste of space once acquired). Plus, it comes out a day before the print version and is more accurate!

The sooner they feel suitably experienced with digital products & expand to Android, the better for sure. Very very impressed with GW digital output so far.

Haravikk
27-10-2012, 17:40
I really like the set, but at £100 I doubt I'll get one as it seems most useful for open battlefields for bigger games which personally I find boring. It seems like they're missing a golden opportunity by not providing a couple of smaller versions of the kit (e.g - one with a medium stretch of trenches and one with a bunker plus a couple of trench sections) as it just seems far too expensive for a lot of players to drop their money into. Regular players who prefer to spend money on squads and vehicles that is, I fully expect 90% of Armies of Parade boards next year will have an ill-advised number of trench sections on them ;)

With smaller kits though it'd be easier for someone to just set up a simple bunker or a fox-hole, and then build from there. Also, why don't the people building these kits to showcase actually glue them together straight? It doesn't inspire much confidence if the professionals can't glue the thing together properly…

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 17:47
Haven't seen what you mean, but probably the same reason as the 'how to paint' guides that look pretty ham-fisted; just so the core target group don't feel overawed / unable to reproduce it.

Older audiences spend more, but the best way to get them is to reel them in while they're young :)

ForgottenLore
27-10-2012, 18:19
I really like the set, but at £100 I doubt I'll get one as it seems most useful for open battlefields for bigger games which personally I find boring. It seems like they're missing a golden opportunity by not providing a couple of smaller versions of the kit (e.g - one with a medium stretch of trenches and one with a bunker plus a couple of trench sections) as it just seems far too expensive for a lot of players to drop their money into.

I would be surprised if smaller kits didn't come later. Remember The Cities of Death terrain? They came out with a big $200 box first, then a bit later you got the kits of the individual buildings and the $90 set.

Binky
27-10-2012, 18:24
The description of the set says, 1 Bunker, 2 Emplacements (or 3, depending on which page of WD you read) and 3 defence lines. Each of those includes multiple sections, so I would assume that it is referring to what the smaller sets will contain.

salamandercaptain
27-10-2012, 19:43
updated idwarf still has bunker, 3 emplacements, 3 defence lines. release dates updates as other posters have stated. (10th and 17th)

by the way it's the second update to idwarf and I only downloaded the November issue yesterday, lot of errata this month??

Clang
27-10-2012, 20:19
I would be surprised if smaller kits didn't come later. Remember The Cities of Death terrain? They came out with a big $200 box first, then a bit later you got the kits of the individual buildings and the $90 set.

Agreed, it's 'sell the big box to the impatient fanboys first, then release individual smaller boxes over a few months'. The big box will be slightly cheaper than buying all the equivalent smaller boxes, i.e. worth getting if you want it all, but otherwise you'll save money by waiting and getting just the bits you need.

And speaking of Cities of Death, I still have a million bits of that (left over from the big box :) ), and could probably make something quite similar to the new Wall of Martyrs out of it. Would take some planning and conversion to look good though...

ForgottenLore
27-10-2012, 20:33
And speaking of Cities of Death, I still have a million bits of that (left over from the big box :) ), and could probably make something quite similar to the new Wall of Martyrs out of it. Would take some planning and conversion to look good though...

A friend of mine got the big box at games day a couple weeks before its official release date (back when games days were good). He was sooo happy that he got the set early. He still hasn't taken any of the sprues out of the box, much less built anything out of them.


As for the new terrain, are there some better pictures than the 2 scans linked to in this thread? You all seem to be talking about these things in much greater detail than the pictures I've seen seem to warrant.

WordBearer
27-10-2012, 20:39
The description of the set says, 1 Bunker, 2 Emplacements (or 3, depending on which page of WD you read) and 3 defence lines. Each of those includes multiple sections, so I would assume that it is referring to what the smaller sets will contain.Yeah, it's looking like it's all modular. I probably won't go all-in for the full Wall of Martyrs, but I might get some of the sub-sets and gradually build my way up.

MagicHat
27-10-2012, 20:56
As for the new terrain, are there some better pictures than the 2 scans linked to in this thread? You all seem to be talking about these things in much greater detail than the pictures I've seen seem to warrant.

They have a painting guide, some of the designers WIP pictures and how you can assemble the pieces, as foxholes for example.

jimbo1701
27-10-2012, 20:57
Any ideas if it will be gw only or if indy stores will offer it? I could possibly justify 80 but 100 is too steep at the mo.

Darnok
27-10-2012, 21:09
Any ideas if it will be gw only or if indy stores will offer it? I could possibly justify 80 but 100 is too steep at the mo.

I'm pretty sure it is GW only. "While stocks last" offers have been GW only in the past, I don't see why they would change it.

Since the components will come out seperately in the future, there is no need to get this box set now. It seems to be good value though.

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 22:15
They have a painting guide, some of the designers WIP pictures and how you can assemble the pieces, as foxholes for example.

Would the mods mind if I took a screenshot of the relevant page? I'd be glad to if it's allowed, seen as people want better pics.

Secondary thing; all the descriptions say 1 bunker, 3 emplacements, three lines. But all the photos have 4 emplacements. Or am I going mad?

Darnok
27-10-2012, 22:26
Would the mods mind if I took a screenshot of the relevant page? I'd be glad to if it's allowed, seen as people want better pics.

We would mind. This would be against our rules concerning IP infringement.


Darnok [=I=]

Aryllon
27-10-2012, 22:50
Wo would mind. This would be against our rules concerning IP infringement.


Darnok [=I=]

Knew it would be best to check first! Duly noted :)

For the people asking, I'll describe the bits not obvious in the pics;
Bunker roof comes off so you can place models inside the ground level. The ground level firing point is correct height for IG heavy weapons teams to shoot out of (er, except mortar teams...). Roof appears to have some sort of hatch for moving between levels.
The weapon emplacements are basically a widened trench section (which can also act as a junction), big enough for a dreadnought sized base and with an ornate firing point. The article says you get three but at least some of the the photos have 4. Including the box cover.
Defence lines are wide enough to place large (IG heavy weapon team size) bases in. Everything else is wider.
Totally modular and comes with a bunch (12?) of end pieces so you can build it in any configuration you choose. Or stick them on the emplacements to create standalone fox holes.

No mention of special rules or points, but fairly sure the BRB supplies enough generic building rules to use it however you choose. Although it might be difficult to 'buy' it in your fortification slot without house ruling what counts as what (I can't see the bunker counting as a bastion, you'd be short of 4 built-in heavy bolters for a start...).

Cthell
27-10-2012, 23:57
The rules are definitely in the BRB - the "trenches" would be defence lines, and the "bunker" a building without built in weapons; the big issue is the points costs

shaso_iceborn
28-10-2012, 04:33
The rules are definitely in the BRB - the "trenches" would be defence lines, and the "bunker" a building without built in weapons; the big issue is the points costs

While true, it does not quite cover the upcoming "Wall of Martyrs" rules.

Clang
28-10-2012, 05:31
Presuming the Wall doesn't get its own Special Rules, hopefully next month's WD will take this ideal opportunity to explain how the generic BRB terrain rules apply to something like the Wall. Otherwise I can see endless 'does so' / 'does not' arguments re simple things like whether the 'trench' sections use Aegis Defence line rules for example.

No, I don't trust players to sort out such things themselves, having witnessed a 15 minute agument over what cover save a half-inch wooden fence gave :)

Gir
28-10-2012, 08:08
The weapon emplacements are basically a widened trench section (which can also act as a junction), big enough for a dreadnought sized base and with an ornate firing point. The article says you get three but at least some of the the photos have 4. Including the box cover.

The box cover has 6.

Aryllon
28-10-2012, 08:43
The box cover has 6.

Oh yeah, correct!
Think it's post 135 if anyone's interested.

andyg2006
28-10-2012, 10:48
Box front covers are advertising about what is inside. GW already has to say "miniature supplied unpainted + unassembled" (or whatever) in order that they don't get sued for advertising painted mini's in the boxes, but not supplying it painted.

However: When you buy this kit (based on the box front advertising) you are thinking that the box contains everything which is displayed on the front of the box (because that's how every company operates, not just GW) , but then the contents of the box are less than what is displayed and it doesn't say on the box that what is on the front is a combination of x number of kits/extra's (or some similar statement)?

BTW, the big foldout pics in WD also say it's "1 bunker, 3 emplacements, 3 defence lines". The product price listing says "1 bunker, 2 emplacements, 3 defence lines".
Are not both of these (or at least the first one) surely breach(es) of the Trades Descriptions Act?! :-(

Gir
28-10-2012, 12:09
How do you know 1 emplacement box doesn't contain 2 emplacements?

Binky
28-10-2012, 12:17
I think the emplacement consists of 3 sections each big enough for a 60mm base, they can be assembled together with the end pieces to make an emplacement for 3 guns and there's a picture of them set up like that in WD, or the sections can be used individually to make junctions and corners in a larger trench system.

mikehunthurts
28-10-2012, 15:48
Not too impressed to be honest. The trenches are not deep enough and don't really look the part, you can get better and doubtless cheaper elsewhere.

Shibboleth
28-10-2012, 15:52
They're not trenches though. They're 'defence lines'.

Charax
28-10-2012, 16:11
They're not trenches though. They're 'defence lines'.

Really? I thought you said I was the only one who knew about the defence lines?

BTJ
28-10-2012, 17:26
For €130 that's not bad. And it's out three days after my 21st too.....

Gir
28-10-2012, 22:00
Not too impressed to be honest. The trenches are not deep enough and don't really look the part, you can get better and doubtless cheaper elsewhere.

Awesome, where?

absolon
29-10-2012, 23:46
I think everyone who gets one will be pretty happy once they realize the different options they can build with what comes in the box

stevegill
29-10-2012, 23:55
Looking exceptionally flexible in WD - good design work.

It looks like this set is mainly aimed at guard (and maybe sisters) use, I'm thinking it may make the Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress sets in the Hobbit list more likely.

Baneboss
30-10-2012, 00:18
Awesome, where?

Seconded, I would like to know that too.

Inquisitor Samos
30-10-2012, 04:11
On the subject of similar trench/emplacement modular sets:


Ziterdes (http://www.ziterdes.de/ziterdes/en/index.php) makes trench sections and emplacements; these are made of "hardfoam," and come pre-finished.

Armorcast (http://armorcast.com/store/index.php?cPath=115_39) makes some unpainted resin trench sections and emplacements. (I have quite a few of these.)

Amera Plastic Mouldings (http://www.amera.co.uk/product.php?range=z) makes some fairly affordable sections in vacuum-formed white polystyrene (thinner material, more flexible).

J G Miniatures (http://www.jgminiatures.com/category.php?cid=3&startid=0&totals=4) makes some very nice, fully-finished deep slit trench / earthed walls sections and emplacements, but they are relatively expensive.

None of these would meet the "better and cheaper" definition when a roughly equivalent layout is compared to what appears to be included in the "Wall of Martyrs" box, at least in my opinion.

Baneboss
30-10-2012, 07:31
None of these would meet the "better and cheaper" definition when a roughly equivalent layout is compared to what appears to be included in the "Wall of Martyrs" box, at least in my opinion.

That is true. I wouldnt call them bad, theyre just... normal.
When youre a 'monopolist' you have money and technology to set the bar higher.

The Dude
30-10-2012, 08:00
If there's alternatives available, how is GW a Monopolist?

Beppo1234
30-10-2012, 09:36
When youre a 'monopolist' you have money and technology to set the bar higher.

when you're a monopolist, you do have the money and technology to set the bar higher, but you don't because you don't have to... you are a monopolist. GW isn't a monoply by strict definition, but it does hold overwhelming market share over demand, and can therefore act like one, ie. their pricing strategy is in no way competitive, yet they persist.


back on topic... does anybody know the full contents of the box?

Shibboleth
30-10-2012, 14:04
Really? I thought you said I was the only one who knew about the defence lines?
It's all in the timing.

Inquisitor Samos
31-10-2012, 01:01
back on topic... does anybody know the full contents of the box?
Based on a combination of the pictures and the descriptions in the Nov digital edition of White Dwarf, it looks like it's one Bunker, three Defense Emplacements, three sets of two Defense Lines segments, and twelve end pieces.

Gir
31-10-2012, 07:39
Based on a combination of the pictures and the descriptions in the Nov digital edition of White Dwarf, it looks like it's one Bunker, three Defense Emplacements, three sets of two Defense Lines segments, and twelve end pieces.

I think there'll be 18 end pieces, 3 for each emplacement. You can see a bunch are used on the model displayed, with the extra floating around.

Rhurick
31-10-2012, 18:10
I saw the same trench system in the holiday gift guide at our local store. Not sure if this was already mentioned though.

Jericho
31-10-2012, 18:14
I think I have to bite the bullet and buy this. Love the idea of trenches I don't have to scratchbuild myself :D

Lars Porsenna
31-10-2012, 21:17
when you're a monopolist, you do have the money and technology to set the bar higher, but you don't because you don't have to... you are a monopolist. GW isn't a monoply by strict definition, but it does hold overwhelming market share over demand, and can therefore act like one, ie. their pricing strategy is in no way competitive, yet they persist.

If anything, GW is Monopolistic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopolistic_competition

Damon.

Starchild
31-10-2012, 22:57
I look forward to using these with the 3rd edition Blitz attacker-defender scenario from the old rulebook! :skull:

Beppo1234
31-10-2012, 23:22
If anything, GW is Monopolistic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopolistic_competition

Damon.

monopolistic competion is not monopoly: monopolistic competition is Coke and Pepsi... they compete and are in competition in the longrun, but their products are not perfect substitutes. Monopoly is different, where there is only one firm in the market.

GW could be said to be in Monopolistic Competition, but it has economies of scale, so it doesn't have to compete with other manufacturers in the short or long run.

The Dude
01-11-2012, 00:29
monopolistic competion is not monopoly: monopolistic competition is Coke and Pepsi... they compete and are in competition in the longrun, but their products are not perfect substitutes. Monopoly is different, where there is only one firm in the market.

GW could be said to be in Monopolistic Competition, but it has economies of scale, so it doesn't have to compete with other manufacturers in the short or long run.

But Coke and Pepsi ARE perfect substitutes. Both are Cola drinks. You can't get much more perfect than that. Just because they attempt to differentiate themselves from each other does not impact this. Their products are priced the same. FMCGs are rarely subject to Monopolistic Competition due to their nature of high purchase rate and therefore increased opportunities for repetoire buying.

Wargames miniatures, however, are not FMCGs.

GW has for some time been attempting to draw out it's ability to remain Monopolistic by first denying the existence of other games, then improving the quality of their products to keep them in another league (i.e. not direct substitiutes), and now by shutting down anything that could be used as a substitute (quite fair on the IP front though).

Despite all of this, I think they are going to have to accept that they are reaching the end of this cycle. Other manufacturers are reaching (or sometimes exceeding) GW's level of quality in sculpting and casting. The Internet is helping their target market become aware of these alternatives. People in general are becoming more price sensitive.

All GW can hope to do is milk the last few drops while they can and set up for a major shake up of pricing. Once they have paid for all their new casting technology (maybe even moving to full plastic production with the mini-sprue clampacks) then they can effectively price all competition out of the market whilst still turning a profit.

Just don't expect any huge advances after that ;)

Aryllon
01-11-2012, 17:51
Plus they can focus more on the kids, whereas other companies tend to focus more on the far end of the scale where the established gamers are.

Which is probably the reasoning behind more monsters (and flyers) and a GW design ethos which leans more towards the big toyish centrepiece rather than grimdark look.

Keep the 'new business' money rolling in virtually unopposed, use FW to be extremely competitive in the low volume / high value mature marketplace and hope for brand loyalty earned when these customers were kids to swing the percentages in their favour. Which in turn might be a reason for moves to get FW stuff accepted in tournaments etc (where the mature gamers are).

To be honest, there are very few companies I see whose stuff I prefer to FW. Some fantasy stuff is great (Avatars of War etc) but there's very little to compete on the 40k front bar shoulder pads and head / weapon swaps.

Thuggrim
01-11-2012, 20:33
I think it seems a reasonable set, price point seems a little high to be perfectly honest, and white dwarf did a really poor job of advertising it well in my view. Really didn't communicate how flexible and the scale effectively. I won't be buying one, largely as I personally think that given my collection an aegis line and the imperial sector would be better bang for my buck. In addition - removing all the imperial bits and corpses the basic structure is something i could pop together in a weekend with about 20 pounds worth of materials - if that. (If only I still had access to a band saw it could be done in a under a day)

Oh and GW do behave as if they have a monopoly, and as a entry level high street wargame they still kinda do in most locales. While other have really come along to challenge in areas of the market they haven't been challenged in enough to break this mindset.

Oh and despite the theoretic simularity between coke and pepsi - they are very different in as much as people do generally have a definate preference, in my view one is a tasty beverage and the other might as well be carbonated urine given how it tastes.

The Dude
01-11-2012, 23:04
Oh and despite the theoretic simularity between coke and pepsi - they are very different in as much as people do generally have a definate preference, in my view one is a tasty beverage and the other might as well be carbonated urine given how it tastes.

Again, that's repertoire buying. At the point of sale you go through your repertoire of drinks (not even just carbonated ones) and get something from there.

It depends on how you segment the market, but with FMCGs you would never segment as discretely as "Cola" because only a fraction of a percent of people have nothing but cola in their repertoire ;)

spaint2k
02-11-2012, 08:43
I've been interested and involved in plenty of tangential discussions in the past that were mercilessly stomped on and pruned out of existence. The topic of GW's monopoly is no less off-topic than countless others I enjoyed, the difference here being that a mod is interested in this one and I'm not. It still doesn't belong in News and Rumours.

Note I don't advocate for virus bombing this talk out of existence - merely that it should be moved elsewhere where the lively discussion can continue for those who are interested in it. I also hope that the mods can consider this action for future off-topic, tangential and interesting (to the participants) discussion - the mods should be so much more thoughtful than simply administering the banhammer and deleting subjectively unworthy posts.

Beppo1234
02-11-2012, 11:04
Again, that's repertoire buying. At the point of sale you go through your repertoire of drinks (not even just carbonated ones) and get something from there.

It depends on how you segment the market, but with FMCGs you would never segment as discretely as "Cola" because only a fraction of a percent of people have nothing but cola in their repertoire ;)

Coke and Pepsi are not perfect substitutes... both products experience product differentiation, which is a characteristic of monopolistic competitive market structures.


but on topic, I like the new defense line, and I hope to get a better look at the contents sometime soon... so that larger plans can be drawn. I wonder if GW will release a paint set to go along with these larger terrain pieces... because like the ROB board, it'll be a pain to paint this with individual bottles of paint. Doable, but it'd be nice to get a big jug of some basic colours, to get the model started, just like the ROB board paint and flock box.

Nickolas94
02-11-2012, 11:27
I haven't bought the white Dwarf yet, then I ask you. But when will be in preorder the Wall of Martyrs?

Binky
02-11-2012, 15:09
Should be up for pre-order on the 10th, comes out on the 17th.

BTJ
02-11-2012, 17:52
Coke and Pepsi are not perfect substitutes... both products experience product differentiation, which is a characteristic of monopolistic competitive market structures.


but on topic, I like the new defense line, and I hope to get a better look at the contents sometime soon... so that larger plans can be drawn. I wonder if GW will release a paint set to go along with these larger terrain pieces... because like the ROB board, it'll be a pain to paint this with individual bottles of paint. Doable, but it'd be nice to get a big jug of some basic colours, to get the model started, just like the ROB board paint and flock box.

If all goes well I'll have one on release day, I'll get photos up for you if I do

Thomson
02-11-2012, 18:06
Other manufacturers are reaching (or sometimes exceeding) GW's level of quality in sculpting and casting.
Well, GHQ for example has more details and a better casting quality than GW has today, and they had the same quality as they have today 20 years ago. So then GW was behind them by more than 20 years ;). However, GW always had the best total package for most gamers, if you take fluff, quality of miniatures and the rules into account. Also GW was very good in understanding that power creep makes people buy miniatures...

pingualoty
02-11-2012, 18:43
I haven't bought the white Dwarf yet, then I ask you. But when will be in preorder the Wall of Martyrs?

I asked my local store and they said preorders will start 10th Nov with release a week later. It is limited as a box set, the parts inside will be sold separately sometime later on.

Nickolas94
02-11-2012, 18:45
Should be up for pre-order on the 10th, comes out on the 17th.


I asked my local store and they said preorders will start 10th Nov with release a week later. It is limited as a box set, the parts inside will be sold separately sometime later on.

Ok, thanks :D

shaso_iceborn
03-11-2012, 04:01
I asked my local store and they said preorders will start 10th Nov with release a week later. It is limited as a box set, the parts inside will be sold separately sometime later on.

Jan. 5th from what I hear but who knows for sure. (the sold separately pieces I mean)

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-11-2012, 06:59
However, GW always had the best total package for most gamers, if you take fluff, quality of miniatures and the rules into account.
The most widely used package and the one most easily available, yes. I don't know if I'd use the term best, especially today. I think their two biggest advantages is that most other competing games are not direct substitutes ( most are a different scale when it comes to the number of models used or the models themselves) and that they are still the most common wargame. The last one could be slipping in a umber of areas, but the first haven't changed much. But equally, its also why GW can't prise their competition out of the market, even if they went to exclusive plastic production and dropped their prices drastically. If I only need a dozen models for two crews in Malifoux I can pay more per model and still come out cheaper than if I'm buying 120 models for a GW game. And of course those competitors are doing various plastic models too.

Interestingly I've always thought that their terrain kits provided better value for money than most of their other kits, perhaps because there is more obvious direct competition so they have to do better than in their normal business? Now I haven't much liked a lot of their recent offerings (too zany/grimdark ). But that's besides the point, and they certainly so the job of reinforcing GWs own special aesthetics very well.

P.S: Pepsi and Coko taste differently?

Thuggrim
03-11-2012, 08:49
@ THe dude, fair point - in that sense GW doesn't monopolise as they almost exclusively promote and support large battle gaming. An through shoddy design they don't properly cater to those seeking a balance system either.

However they are making a strong play for quick and easy scenary - although the trend is towards being costly, as I mentioned there is a tipping point between convience and quality - and time. I personally think given its design and cost this model falls on the wrong side of that balance for them, as I don't see it being a particularly difficult to replicate as close an approximation as I would want (As in minus the skulls) and that wouldn't represent a investment of time that I would say I'd rather buy the model.

Aryllon
03-11-2012, 13:39
I don't think most people could make a substitute or this. And of those who could, there will be plenty who either generally prefer this option, or whose feel the cost of the kit does outweigh the time and effort (and cost) of self made. I had a look at all the alternative suppliers people posted and none of them were as good, while many were more expensive.

Overall I'd say this would be a very good value kit even if it were lower quality, judging by what else is out there and the volume of stuff you get.

Plus, for people who do like to self build - this could be a very attractive proposition anyway, considering what you could use it as the basis for.

Regards other game systems - the cost justification is not realistic if you choose an indirect comparison. You can play a dozen models of Grey Knights more cheaply than a dozen Malifaux models, so the fact that 120 GW models would cost more than 12 Malifaux is not indicative of anything. And that's before taking game size into account - a 3000 point GW army can't be used as an example of high cost versus other game systems if you're only looking at the equivalent of 1000 points games in their case (an all day game versus an hour's play). Also, I just bought some Raging Heroes models; they are like-for-like swaps with Dark Eldar Wyches but are much more expensive... and as beautiful as the RH models may be, it can't be said GW's DE sculpts lack anything in the aesthetics department. That is a much more relevant comparison and it works very much in GW's favour unless you have good reason to not want yet more plastic Wyches...:angel:

Thuggrim
04-11-2012, 12:53
Aryllon, I would respectfully disagree - GW kits since the imperial sector offer little to the self-builder - unless you have access to massive multiple kits. This set in particular I feel offers nothing for self build purposes, while modular its is highly inflexible in terms of construction. The decision to purchase or build will always be entirely personal but for me this kit offers very little to make it have value. I will in fact be purchasing the imperial sector as my next scenary buy.

I must also say that the comparison with other companies is entirely fair - I would also observe depending on models selected grey knights are not cheaper than malifeux models. However that is not were your argument falters, it is the fact that the dozen grey knights, in order to be cheaper than malifeux miniatures would not allow you to play a standard size game, while the malifeux ones would. Base line is that for comparable gaming experience (average evening of gaming) GW is more expensive by a factor of between 2-3 times the cost of other systems. If you happy with that and through preference believe that is a personally justifiable use of your cash then great, but it just highlights their pricing is out of kilter. Your next argument will likely be that you will have more models for the GW system, which is entirely true for some and incorrect for others (KIngs of War etc) however you will not have a better experience unless you only like GW games in which case you will pay what they ask without question regardless. They may also track you down and try to clone you to protect future sales.

If your just comparing model for model cost than GW can do quite well, but then you have walked down the road of comparing a 1980's skoda with a Ferrari - well they are both cars right :P. Especially when you add in fine cast - and the fact if I buy privateer press "plastics" (a superior material to fine cast) they come removed from the sprue with little cleaning up to do and hand packaged and subjected to a much more stringent quality control process. Ultimately your happy to buy GW models and that feels like money well spent to you then great, I am not knocking you for it. I still buy gw models occassionally, filling in gaps I want to plug to complete my armies or if it is that good a model (festus) but I won't buy any new armies from them - and I generally don't buy direct from them as often I feel they do not offer value for my money. As someone that has worked for them and promoted their hobby through clubs and tournaments I am not anti-gw but I do feel currently they are going in the wrong direction that will ultimately prove detrimental to our hobby and them as a business. WHich is why releasing a trench set at a cost of 100 pound that could be easily replicated for 20 quids worth of materials and a weekends work (and taylored to my board and armies) is a bad move.

Aryllon
04-11-2012, 13:57
Fair enough, each to their own :)

I'm just saying that for anyone who can't make their own it's a good deal. Cheaper than buying the bits individually and a better kit compared to most alternative suppliers' stuff (opinion notwithstanding). I'll be buying it and will deff be modding it to integrate into something else. Thinking about a modular 'city under siege' board (like the new FW sections... as much as I love them, now that is an example of something many people could do for much less than £75 per section, just for a flat base + raised flat areas + rubble + a bit of detail).

Regards other game systems, yes it's hard to make a direct comparison - a good one is the Avatars of War plastic chaos and dwarf regiments (versus the GW plastic chaos & dwarf regiments). The AoW kits are fantastic and cheaper per model. 12 GW chaos warriors cost £20, 20 AoW 'Chaos Warriors' cost €37.50. So yes GW are in this case comparatively overpriced. But GW's versus RH's Wyches comes out in GW favour, because GW's are cheaper and are equally good sculpts.

I wasn't saying Grey Knights are de facto cheaper than Malifaux - I was showing that it's easy to make an unfavourable comparison by being selective about which models to compare :)

IcedCrow
04-11-2012, 20:31
Very few people could replicate this AND make it look good. Ive seen a lot of attempts at things like this and they just always fall flat.

Great piece of terrain. It costs but in the end id rather pay a bit more than look at rubbish on the table. Im also a more aesthetic player. Appearance counts most to me.

_Chimaera
04-11-2012, 22:02
Regards other game systems, yes it's hard to make a direct comparison - a good one is the Avatars of War plastic chaos and dwarf regiments (versus the GW plastic chaos & dwarf regiments). The AoW kits are fantastic and cheaper per model. 12 GW chaos warriors cost £20, 20 AoW 'Chaos Warriors' cost €37.50. So yes GW are in this case comparatively overpriced. But GW's versus RH's Wyches comes out in GW favour, because GW's are cheaper and are equally good sculpts

i think you need to re-check your figures. GW come out cheaper in your comparison :)

Maybe GW aren't as bad as you thought?

Beppo1234
04-11-2012, 23:24
P.S: Pepsi and Coko taste differently?
[/SIZE]

Same type of drink, different flavours: product differentiation

same with plastic miniature companies, same product (plastic minis) but different flavour.



still looking for the set on pre order, but not to be found

eldargal
05-11-2012, 07:05
Advance Order for it should go up saturday 10th for a 17th November release.

Beppo1234
05-11-2012, 08:13
Advance Order for it should go up saturday 10th for a 17th November release.

I'm dumb, I keep thinking this weekend was the 10th

underhivetrader
05-11-2012, 09:51
Would love this for my jungle table. I could see myself buying this, dreading oz retail pricing though.

eldargal
05-11-2012, 09:59
205AUd according to someone on Dakkadakka.

Aryllon
05-11-2012, 17:31
i think you need to re-check your figures. GW come out cheaper in your comparison :)

Maybe GW aren't as bad as you thought?

1/ Er, I was the one supporting GW
2/ GW come out more expensive in that comparison

Did you forget breakfast or something?!

Edit: can we forget the Pepsi/Coke convo?? There's less difference in taste between the two brands than there is between the premixed and vendor-mix version of each brand anyway.

_Chimaera
05-11-2012, 19:03
1/ Er, I was the one supporting GW
2/ GW come out more expensive in that comparison

Did you forget breakfast or something?!

Edit: can we forget the Pepsi/Coke convo?? There's less difference in taste between the two brands than there is between the premixed and vendor-mix version of each brand anyway.


Edit - put me down for another Weetabix :) I didn't notice first time (or the 2nd for that matter) around the AoW ones were quoted in Euros.

Thuggrim
05-11-2012, 20:28
Would love this for my jungle table. I could see myself buying this, dreading oz retail pricing though.

In evil belgium accent - one million dollars? :P

@Aryllon agree about the Forgeworld board sections, if you do do something along those lines would be great to see it posted. I am contemplating a mechanicum refinery, reinforced for my gaurdsmen - a mixed regiment. However I am running low on space. If this was at the 80 pound mark I would probably pick it up but not at the hundred.

Clang
06-11-2012, 07:38
Would love this for my jungle table. I could see myself buying this, dreading oz retail pricing though.

AUD$205, according to WD

The Marshel
07-11-2012, 13:46
Would love this for my jungle table. I could see myself buying this, dreading oz retail pricing though.

http://www.bunkergames.net/product_info.php?cPath=188&products_id=1552 Fair bit easier on the wallet here. Kinda silly that you can pre-order from this flgs before GW though.

Really tempted to get one myself, but tbh i don't need to be spending the money on it right now

eldargal
07-11-2012, 13:48
Well it obviously isn't Direct Only then.

The Dude
07-11-2012, 20:35
Kinda silly that you can pre-order from this flgs before GW though.

It wouldn't be the first time a FLGS or online retailer put something up for ore-order based on the expectation of getting it.

BTJ
07-11-2012, 22:58
Well my LGS owner says he CAN order it, so I'd say it's legit

The Dude
07-11-2012, 23:08
So long as they know HOW MANY they can get and only pre-order that many ;)

Sophet Drahas
07-11-2012, 23:11
My FLGS said they'll be getting them. Also mentioned they'd be getting one each of the megaforces. They said the quantities available to FLGS's are extremely limited this year. Sounds like GW wants folks buying directly from them.

Azzy
08-11-2012, 01:53
No, it's not direct-only. Only stores with preferred accounts (don't know the actual term used or what it construes, I'm just going off what I heard second-hand) are guaranteed a certain number of the boxes, though other stores may be able to get some depending on supplies and finagling. My FLGS is hoping to get 2, but isn't certain. If they do, one box, at least, is already spoken for.... so here's hoping! :)

Gen.RifulasDykes
09-11-2012, 17:45
Well, since no one else has said it I shall, Advance Order for it went up today, with a big "While Stocks Last" stamp. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1770002a

Thuggrim
09-11-2012, 20:15
The video actually gives a much better idea of the size and what you get. Which makes it considerably more impressive, still won't be buying one though.

prowla
09-11-2012, 21:38
There's also a Heavy Metal "Edge" set and 4 basing kits in the pre-orders.

The basing kits seem to be in the style of current kit, except comes in 4 different flavours - the "Under-Empire" one has green crystals in it and Northern Wastes has clear icicles. Two other have brass vegetation. Kinda hard to tell from the pics, but I think these have mostly "natural" or "ancient" resin bits in them, plus maybe one or two 40k bits thrown in, so "fit for all". Old "40k" and "fantasy" basing kits are still there.

The Edge set has 9 layer paints that are of lightly lighter shade, plus a brush and a booklet, for only 47 eur or so :p

Vaulkhar
10-11-2012, 11:57
Looks like GW are gearing up for Christmas already...those trenches do look tasty if you're as lazy as me when it comes to scenery. Plus, only in the Imperium could a 'Wall of Martyrs' be exactly what it said on the tin...

WordBearer
10-11-2012, 17:36
Looks like GW are gearing up for Christmas already...those trenches do look tasty if you're as lazy as me when it comes to scenery. Plus, only in the Imperium could a 'Wall of Martyrs' be exactly what it said on the tin...It's especially nice because they've been focusing on giving you a level of detail you generally don't get with scratch-built trenches and bunkers. Keeping everything modular is nice too, with the emphasis they've put on modular tables and fortifications in recent years.

Tastyfish
13-11-2012, 16:51
Well, since no one else has said it I shall, Advance Order for it went up today, with a big "While Stocks Last" stamp. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1770002a
Red shirt rumour so bare that in mind...

Apparently it is geniunely a limited edition product, so once this set has sold out theyre not going to be splitting it up but instead using the factory time for more terrain (so this stuff might come out in cycles). This stuff is kind of an offshoot of what they've previously done with studio terrain bits (where they do a very limited resin run) with their stores amost being the main intended customer. Chaos warprift may also be in the works.

BTJ
13-11-2012, 17:11
I really doubt that tbh.They can't expect to sell loads, and Indies normally get more than what GW are offering them when it's truly limited, as opposed to a bundle. Also, on the topic of the basing kits, there's no limited stamp on them, just wondering has anyone heard for sure that they aren't, I'd love to use a couple of them

MajorWesJanson
13-11-2012, 20:11
Red shirt rumour so bare that in mind...

Apparently it is geniunely a limited edition product, so once this set has sold out theyre not going to be splitting it up but instead using the factory time for more terrain (so this stuff might come out in cycles). This stuff is kind of an offshoot of what they've previously done with studio terrain bits (where they do a very limited resin run) with their stores amost being the main intended customer. Chaos warprift may also be in the works.

I doubt a "really limited" product, but I do think that they could treat it like they used to do the Fortress of Redemption- only released around the holidays then taken off the market. Especially if they don't have fortification rules for it.

tiger g
13-11-2012, 20:34
I doubt a "really limited" product, but I do think that they could treat it like they used to do the Fortress of Redemption- only released around the holidays then taken off the market. Especially if they don't have fortification rules for it.

Well sold out in the USA already so you might doubt it is limited but right now no longer can buy.

tuo
13-11-2012, 20:53
I guess that it is like the Imperial Sector. That one also was "while stocks last", and now is back in stock (ordered another one with the walls-set).

If you take a look at the description of the set, it consists of three standalone kits. 3x the walls, 2x the fortification, 1x the bunker, it is even displayes like that on the page. They will release these smaller boxes shortly, and might turn the "big set" into the same cyrcle like the Imperial Sector. Not a limited edition, but at the same time not available all the time.

Clang
14-11-2012, 05:22
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting too, the same as they did with Cities of Death. The smaller individual boxes will be on sale soon, although collectively priced a little more than the big box. So by all means get the big box if you'll use all of it, but otherwise just wait.

Azzy
14-11-2012, 07:21
Red shirt rumour so bare that in mind...

Apparently it is geniunely a limited edition product, so once this set has sold out theyre not going to be splitting it up

Translation: Red Shirt trying to convince people to buy it now by lying about there not being an opportunity to buy it later as individual sets.

eldargal
14-11-2012, 07:43
If it were limited edition surely it would have the limited edition stamp on the webpage?

The Dude
14-11-2012, 08:57
Translation: Red Shirt trying to convince people to buy it now by lying about there not being an opportunity to buy it later as individual sets.

Maybe not lying per se. More likely just making assumptions based on what HQ has told them (i.e. nothing)

Tastyfish
14-11-2012, 09:20
If it were limited edition surely it would have the limited edition stamp on the webpage?

Possibly, though in this case it's not quite like the various dice and bags that are made by an outside company, but possibly something that they don't plan to keep in stock (so there's 'X' amount of factory and warehouse space dedicated to 'large terrain' and it cycles between Imperial trenchlines, chaos warp rifts, webway gates, area denial nodes, reclaimation pools etc - a bit like the wierd Disney Vault thing they used to do).

With the plastic range getting larger and larger, and the kits themselves getting bigger and bigger, I can definitely see them having warehousing issues, especially when just-in-time manufacturing isn't going to be as easy for them as other companies. Wouldn't be suprised either way really - that it comes out in smaller sets later on or whether it stays part of the christmas terrain megadeal range.

stevegill
14-11-2012, 09:28
Well sold out in the USA already so you might doubt it is limited but right now no longer can buy.

But that would be the same as when the original Imperial City box came out, that also sold out quite quickly but was followed soon after by the smaller sets we have now. The boxed set was limited but the contents are still available.

dean
14-11-2012, 16:06
Or every army deal box ever made... It is just a short term chance to pick it up a bit cheaper...

Austinitor
15-11-2012, 15:07
I'm really hoping the rules make it into the next White Dwarf.

Schelle
15-11-2012, 18:46
The boxes will be sold seperately

megatrons2nd
15-11-2012, 18:59
I'm really hoping the rules make it into the next White Dwarf.


There are rules for trenches in the main rulebook. I think the most you will see is they add fearless to Imperial units that are in it.