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View Full Version : So the Legion of Azgorh Chaos Dwarfs have been our for about a year now...



Veshnakar
08-10-2012, 02:33
As the title says, the Legion of Azgorh Chaos Dwarfs have been out for about a year and a half now and have been allowed at multiple big name GTs including almost all of the ones I have attended in the US and the ETC as well.

I am wondering how people feel about the Chaos Dwarfs now that it's been over a year and a half since their release, and if anything has changed in your mindset in regards to facing them.

Kalandros
08-10-2012, 05:29
played once against the "pre-Forgeworld fan-made version", only won because double boxed cars on his General's stubborn 10 break test.
That thing was broken.

But I've yet to face a chaos dwarf player.. they be rare :[ They're allowed in our tournament scene as well but none has shown up.
I'd love to play 'em though. I've faced the toughest cheese of other armies, bring on a different flavor!

GrandmasterWang
08-10-2012, 05:48
Praise be to Hashut!!

Loa as a whole is really quite balanced vs most armies, there are just a couple of things in their list which irk most people. (magma cannon, destroyer & ashstorm are the most common)

Thyphs
08-10-2012, 08:04
People who write ETC rules can do what they like - i dont play nor want to play ETC so doesn't bother me in the slightest.

However "Official" Tournaments run by GW - No never.

Forgeworld items - both Fantasy and 40k are not balanced against mainstream books..............then again i could say that some of the mainstream books are not balanced against eachother either :-D

Oh sod it - yes allow them just for a bit of variation from the usual dull star games

Rakariel
08-10-2012, 09:10
I play em myself sometimes and like playing against them. More variation is always good and if people dont turn up with the uttmost cheese of lists theres nothing speaking against fielding them imo.

lisaundead
08-10-2012, 09:15
Well, as a dedicated LoA player I may be biased but I would have no problems facing the corrupt stunties either in Tournaments or friendly games, just as I wouldnt have problems facing ANY other army.

It all adds to the fun and variety of the game and gives the player something new and challenging to face......plus, I have only won 1 game so far using them, so they cant be THAT broken or unbalanced!

So far I have had no players (friends or strangers) turn their noses up at facing my CDs and I do try to mix and match, varying my lists so they dont get boring to play/face while I learn what works for me.

Artinam
08-10-2012, 09:17
I have no problems facing them. My army is hardly top tier and for me its all seeing cool armies and painted models and have a cool battle.

Commodus Leitdorf
08-10-2012, 10:18
I can use all the Minis I've been collecting over the years! (with the exception of Hobgoblin Bolt throwers which I can live with!) I approve!

The Low King
08-10-2012, 11:00
I would be fine playing them in any game because it says in the book they are legal...

But i wouldnt want to. Noone i know collects them because they are soo expensive to collect, so i have never played them. This alone gives them an unfair advantage when playing.

Plus i play dwarfs, we deny the existance of any such thing as Chaos Dwarfs.

Urgat
08-10-2012, 11:37
But i wouldnt want to. Noone i know collects them because they are soo expensive to collect, so i have never played them. This alone gives them an unfair advantage when playing.

:wtf: Wasn't that true for every single army at one point or another? Did you refuse to play ogres when they were released? Bah, playing them once and that pb goes away anyway, no big deal :p

edit: as for me, I'm fine with them, the more the merrier. I'm actually paitning some chaos dwarfs that will no doubt end up fighting alongside the chaos warriors of one of my regular opponents. I'll just houserule away the fact the destroyer can't be wounded if you roll a 6 (my models, my tamurkhan book? My rules.).

Da Crusha
08-10-2012, 11:56
as a regular tournament goer with chaos dwarfs for the last 4 years or so, I would say Im happy to play against or with the chaos dwarfs





edit: as for me, I'm fine with them, the more the merrier. I'm actually paitning some chaos dwarfs that will no doubt end up fighting alongside the chaos warriors of one of my regular opponents. I'll just houserule away the fact the destroyer can't be wounded if you roll a 6 (my models, my tamurkhan book? My rules.).

house rule not needed. check out the faq (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/tamurkhanQA.pdf)

Urgat
08-10-2012, 12:17
I know the faq, it is even worse. It gives an infinitesimal chance to wound with lower strenght attacks, and makes you reroll high strengh attacks that would work fine before. Makes it absurdly resilient against everything instead of just invulnerable to attacks under S4 (which is still almost that, since you need to roll a 6 twice to wound).

Phazael
08-10-2012, 20:06
I accept it as a valid army for play, even though it is not a style I like. What I hate is the Kadai Cheerleader lists 99% of the CD players seem to run. You know, minimum core blocks to screen the half dozen war machined that pelt you while the Kadai comes right up the middle to faceroll your army. That army is just just an obstacle course, not a strategic challenge. If I saw more armies build around a descent mix of combat with shooting as the supplement, I might feel differently.

Daniel36
08-10-2012, 20:28
The positivity of this thread makes me happy. I am glad to read the "more the merrier" comments.
I would love to play against them... as long as the player isn't a powergamer. I am all for fun and thematic games and I am sure the Chaos Dwarfs at one point or another would go up against the Empire, be it alongside other armies or alone.

The Low King
08-10-2012, 23:22
:wtf: Wasn't that true for every single army at one point or another? Did you refuse to play ogres when they were released? Bah, playing them once and that pb goes away anyway, no big deal :p


I said i would play them, not that i wouldnt. Just that i wouldnt want to play them, in the same way as people dont go seeking dwarf Gunlines to play.

Ogres were released before i was really playing, so i dont know about them.

I still regard Chaos Dwarfs as not quite a full army book though; whatever Forge wants it is still different from normal warhammer.

Da Crusha
08-10-2012, 23:43
I accept it as a valid army for play, even though it is not a style I like. What I hate is the Kadai Cheerleader lists 99% of the CD players seem to run. You know, minimum core blocks to screen the half dozen war machined that pelt you while the Kadai comes right up the middle to faceroll your army. That army is just just an obstacle course, not a strategic challenge. If I saw more armies build around a descent mix of combat with shooting as the supplement, I might feel differently.

are you talking about the destroyer (not the fireborn) coming up the middle by itself? throw ANY cavalry model with the dragonbane gem at it. you wont have to worry about this "obstacle course" any more.

between me and the other 2 chaos dwarf players in the area there has been a variety of lists at our tournaments.

Da Crusha
09-10-2012, 01:10
I know the faq, it is even worse. It gives an infinitesimal chance to wound with lower strenght attacks, and makes you reroll high strengh attacks that would work fine before. Makes it absurdly resilient against everything instead of just invulnerable to attacks under S4 (which is still almost that, since you need to roll a 6 twice to wound).

S8+ is easier to wound with the faq.

logan054
09-10-2012, 01:33
I would have no problem, like anybook, it has some silly options, gives you something different and interesting to play against, besides, if you spend that much cash on a army, you should be allowed to use it.

dusk1983
09-10-2012, 02:15
I'm currently in the process of planning and *saving* for a chaos dwarf forgeworld army. And its only because I love the models so much. In my opinion the Kdaii are the only truly broken things in the army and as a result Im not buying them and I wont field them.

The thing to remember as well is when 2015 hits and we get another edition, The LoA are probably going to be left behind as far as power playing goes. Seeing as I dont think they'll ever be re-introduced into standard GW fare, they'll be out of date and underpowered soon enough.

Also Ive written up a 2000 point list. It consists of about 46 models. Hard or not, I imagine when i get my models and start playing I'm going to be outnumbered and outmaneouvred at every turn thanks to the high points costs.

Da Crusha
09-10-2012, 02:38
I'm currently in the process of planning and *saving* for a chaos dwarf forgeworld army. And its only because I love the models so much. In my opinion the Kdaii are the only truly broken things in the army and as a result Im not buying them and I wont field them.

The thing to remember as well is when 2015 hits and we get another edition, The LoA are probably going to be left behind as far as power playing goes. Seeing as I dont think they'll ever be re-introduced into standard GW fare, they'll be out of date and underpowered soon enough.

Also Ive written up a 2000 point list. It consists of about 46 models. Hard or not, I imagine when i get my models and start playing I'm going to be outnumbered and outmaneouvred at every turn thanks to the high points costs.

the destroyer is undercost to help with the general overcost of our army. good luck winning without him. generally I feel without the destroyer the list sucks. Ravening hordes was super old but I felt it was more competitive than LoA. now we are cursed with a small army with large models that cost too much, points and money, and generally suck (bar the destroyer).

dusk1983
09-10-2012, 02:45
the destroyer is undercost to help with the general overcost of our army. good luck winning without him. generally I feel without the destroyer the list sucks. Ravening hordes was super old but I felt it was more competitive than LoA. now we are cursed with a small army with large models that cost too much, points and money, and generally suck (bar the destroyer).

Its allright. Im a wood elf player, so Im used to all that. :-p

GrandmasterWang
09-10-2012, 06:32
LoA isnt a bad list even without the destroyer. If you want to take out the undercosted stuff the magma cannon also needs to go. Ive had some pretty good success running fluffy loa lists without the destroyer. The lore of hashut is devastating and units like centaurs can be very good for the points. With castellans granting stubborn its quite hard to get the blocks to run. Earthshaker and rerollable hell cannon can put the fear into any opponent

My personal joke theory for the destroyer is that they only playtested vs chaos dwarfs where most thing have a ward save vs its flaming

Urgat
09-10-2012, 08:56
S8+ is easier to wound with the faq.
That totally made me change my mind :p


the destroyer is undercost to help with the general overcost of our army. good luck winning without him. generally I feel without the destroyer the list sucks.

Funny that, I go on CDO (coz I'm slowly making my own CD army), and I remember you saying that the destroyer isn't mandatory to win :p

Da Crusha
09-10-2012, 10:46
That totally made me change my mind :p

Strengths 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 10 were all changed by the faq to wound the destroyer easier. only Strengths 5, 6 and 7 were adversely affected.


Funny that, I go on CDO (coz I'm slowly making my own CD army), and I remember you saying that the destroyer isn't mandatory to win :p

I dont think it's madatory to win, but it sure helps, and there isnt a better value in the loa list. many of the things in the list are way too expensive... and I guess I just got irked when dusk1983 said they "are truly broken" so much he wouldnt even field them. I mean really? stoppable by a goblin on a wolf with the dragon bane gem, does wounds to itself, crumbles when loses combat. is that the what truly broken looks like? of course not, its a good value and its good to use in the game. it helps out our overcosted army.

The Low King
09-10-2012, 10:58
I dont think it's madatory to win, but it sure helps, and there isnt a better value in the loa list. many of the things in the list are way too expensive... and I guess I just got irked when dusk1983 said they "are truly broken" so much he wouldnt even field them. I mean really? stoppable by a goblin on a wolf with the dragon bane gem, does wounds to itself, crumbles when loses combat. is that the what truly broken looks like? of course not, its a good value and its good to use in the game. it helps out our overcosted army.

Teclis is stopped by anything with sniper, Hydras and A-Bombs fall to flaming cannons....just because it is stoppable by something specifically tooled up to take it down doesnt mean it isnt too good.

Przemcio251
09-10-2012, 11:02
Well i hate plating against CHD their list is broken:/ As you already mentioned Ka’dai Destroyer was strengthened with the update and despite what someone said charging him with a dragonhelm or gragonbane gem doesn’t solve anything the fellow has like between 7-9 S7 attacks your hero will die eventually. Also he is fairly fast so catching him before he eliminates your army might also be problematic. Once I saw the Destroyer taking on the whole Empire army and won… he had Demigryphs in front and flank and some cav on the other… and he just slaughtered the poor empire fellows.
Another broken mechanic is Doom and Darkness/Chalice/WM Combo… just cast D&D use the chalice before your opponent dispels the spell (he usually ends up without and dispel dice after that) then shoot your Hellcannon and Deathshrike rockets at the target (if you miss no worries you have rerolls) and your opponent needs to pass a LD test at -4…
Problem with FW book is the author who probably never played WFB and decided whoopee lest make a strong list.
You will see in a year when more books for WFB will be released by GW and they will most likely be balanced we will be left with OP CHD FW list.

dusk1983
09-10-2012, 11:20
and I guess I just got irked when dusk1983 said they "are truly broken" so much he wouldnt even field them. I mean really? stoppable by a goblin on a wolf with the dragon bane gem, does wounds to itself, crumbles when loses combat. is that the what truly broken looks like? of course not, its a good value and its good to use in the game. it helps out our overcosted army.

Sorry to irk. Wasnt my intention. Just an opinion.

Athlan na Dyr
09-10-2012, 12:36
Well i hate plating against CHD their list is broken:/ As you already mentioned Ka’dai Destroyer was strengthened with the update and despite what someone said charging him with a dragonhelm or gragonbane gem doesn’t solve anything the fellow has like between 7-9 S7 attacks your hero will die eventually. Also he is fairly fast so catching him before he eliminates your army might also be problematic. Once I saw the Destroyer taking on the whole Empire army and won… he had Demigryphs in front and flank and some cav on the other… and he just slaughtered the poor empire fellows.
Another broken mechanic is Doom and Darkness/Chalice/WM Combo… just cast D&D use the chalice before your opponent dispels the spell (he usually ends up without and dispel dice after that) then shoot your Hellcannon and Deathshrike rockets at the target (if you miss no worries you have rerolls) and your opponent needs to pass a LD test at -4…
Problem with FW book is the author who probably never played WFB and decided whoopee lest make a strong list.
You will see in a year when more books for WFB will be released by GW and they will most likely be balanced we will be left with OP CHD FW list.

154459

Dude, the K'daai Destroyer is really the only OP thing in the book. I suggest you read it before you start coming out with crap such as this.

And your 'broken mechanic' relies on 555 points to have a chance of working, and a poor one at that (aside from the other obvious downside of having Death as your main lore).

Aside from the K'daai destroyer, the magma cannon vs. certain armies and Ash Storm, the rest of the book is balanced to underpowered

Da Crusha
09-10-2012, 12:38
Sorry to irk. Wasnt my intention. Just an opinion.
no prob, I was quite irkable yesterday ;)



Well i hate plating against CHD their list is broken:/ As you already mentioned Ka’dai Destroyer was strengthened with the update and despite what someone said charging him with a dragonhelm or gragonbane gem doesn’t solve anything the fellow has like between 7-9 S7 attacks your hero will die eventually. Also he is fairly fast so catching him before he eliminates your army might also be problematic. Once I saw the Destroyer taking on the whole Empire army and won… he had Demigryphs in front and flank and some cav on the other… and he just slaughtered the poor emre fellows.

I have also seen him fail his first 2 toughness tests and die before causing a wound. Ive seen empire rip him to shreds with cannonballs. Ive seen him die on the first turn because of gateway. Ive seen him crumble to death because the dwarfs he was supporting were no match for the abom. I have not seen him take on whole armies like so many people claim though and I have had tons of games playing LoA.



Another broken mechanic is Doom and Darkness/Chalice/WM Combo… just cast D&D use the chalice before your opponent dispels the spell (he usually ends up without and dispel dice after that) then shoot your Hellcannon and Deathshrike rockets at the target (if you miss no worries you have rerolls) and your opponent needs to pass a LD test at -4…
Problem with FW book is the author who probably never played WFB and decided whoopee lest make a strong list.

That chalice trick is just pure cheese and you know it wont be allowed on the tournament scene. causing panic tests with hellcannons comes from WoC and we will get any changes they make to it. and each reroll for a warmachine comes from a deamonsmith thats like 100 points!


You will see in a year when more books for WFB will be released by GW and they will most likely be balanced we will be left with OP CHD FW list.

unlikely.

Urgat
09-10-2012, 13:55
First, let me point out that all my comments are based on my own playing group. Tournament mentality, list tailoring and min-max list making don't apply. This is very important because I'v been talking about this from the beginning. I guess the fact I mentionned I'll house-rule it made it clear, but just in case, I prefer to insist on this fact. Now, keeping this in mind:

Strengths 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 10 were all changed by the faq to wound the destroyer easier. only Strengths 5, 6 and 7 were adversely affected.
S1 to 4 attacks need to roll a 6 twice to wound, I'll let mathammer fans calculate this, but that's really anecdotical. S5 to 7 attacks, which are the ones you will find most often in non-tailored army lists, were the strenght values hwich had a chance to deal damage to it. They've basically nerfed the most efficient S bracket that could deal damage to the destroyer with the FAQ. S8 to 10? Dunno, I don't have access to that kind of strenghts unless I specifically make a character for it, and we don't tailor in my gaming group, we make all comers lists.


I dont think it's madatory to win, but it sure helps, and there isnt a better value in the loa list. many of the things in the list are way too expensive... and I guess I just got irked when dusk1983 said they "are truly broken" so much he wouldnt even field them. I mean really? stoppable by a goblin on a wolf with the dragon bane gem, does wounds to itself, crumbles when loses combat. is that the what truly broken looks like? of course not, its a good value and its good to use in the game. it helps out our overcosted army.

I'd say there isn't better value in any other lists. There's been discussions about the destroyer before, and even enthusiast defenders of the destroyer agreed that they'd still field it even if didn't have the -1 to wound and it costed more. That clearly means what it means.
I am myself quite a CD enthusiast, always been, back then, when I picked up my gobs, it was really a close call I didn't pick chaos dwarfs instead. So I tried to defend the destroyer when we discovered the LoA list, I even tried to defend the new FAQ. But I have the book now, I've made mock face-offs with my minis and proxies, and the destroyer is way too powerfull for what it costs.
The only real weakness of that kind of monsters in melee (attack saturation or high strengh attacks) are cancelled by rules that should not exist (a stapple of FW rules saddly. Like the colossal beast rule. Why are FW monsters more "colossal" than GW ones?).
Regarding the goblin with the dragon bane gem: you got wolf riders of your own to intercept that. If the enemy player can dedicate a goblin hero to cancel the destroyer, surely you can dedicate a goblin-killing Khan on wolf to prevent that.
Crumbles when it loses combat? Does it ever loses combat? The thing's damage output is enormous, it can quite litterally lay waste to entire units in one turn. It's got 6+1D3 attacks, it's got monstrous stomp, and there's the blazing body rule. No doubt that's at the very mininmum 5 bases in contact. That's a minimum of 13 attacks against a 5-wide unit, 6 of which autohit (max is up to 20 attacks if my maths aren't off. An entire minimum-sized unit...). Incredibly resilient, M9 (that's as fast as that wolf gob, and that lone gob will have to pass the ld test for terror on his own, most likely). At this price range, it shouldn't have that custom frenzy rule, for starters, not when you combine it with blazing body. There is no other monster than can take a unit from the front and expect it to win.
As for overcosted army, the LoA players often say that, but they also often refuse to use hobgoblins. Ok, that the raiders are rare sucks, but that aside, both hobgoblin units are great value, they're better than the equivalent common goblins for near the same price (the cut-throats with AHW are awesome for that price, a killy horde of chaff? Send them my way, I awnt them in my goblin army). They are perfect to cover any weakness the pricey, elite chaos dwarfs may suffer from. As a goblin player, I can tell that those will be mandatory in my own LoA army. If a LoA player fields a unit of hobgobs (or a taurus, or a khan, or whatever else that moves fast), the hero with dragon bane gem is dead meat. And it's not like you can ignore the rest of the army while dealing with the destroyer, it's not like you can ignore the destroyer either, so what do you kill? The anti-dragonbane khan? The destroyer? the warmachines?

So, well, the point is thus: because I am the one with the room to play Warhammer and my friends come to my place to play, since I'm the one who buys the rulebook every edition, since I'm the only one who bothers making terrain, since I'm the one who got Tamurkhan, and the one who is building the LoA army, I am the one who makes the calls for this kind of things in our playing group. Yup, screw democracy, my playing group is under the tyranic rule of Urgat The Megalomaniac (well, it is only propper that goblins should rule anyway, so it's fine). Now we're also a bunch of laid back players who enjoy a relaxed gameplay and churn overpowered stuff, so there's only two options for me regarding the destroyer: I refuse to apply the FAQ because of the points I have explained above, so it's either "we keep the original rules, but cap the "to wound" malus to 6+ max", or the destroyer is forbidden. As I don't like to forbid stuff if I can hel it, I've opted for caping the blazing body rule (even with that, it's not like the destroyer doesn't remain the most formidable monster in the game by far anyway).
If you wonder, I've ever imposed a similar ruling once since I've played Warhammer, it was in 5th ed for a nasty combination of magic items. It's not like I apply my tyranic, megalomaniac right to bend the rules at the first occasion ;) Hargh, I didn't plan on writing a whole novel ><

Storyteller
09-10-2012, 21:52
I'd have no issue playing the Chaos Dwarfs in any format (though I'm not a tournament player). As many have said, I love variety so the more the merrier. That said, my opponents pick armies because they love them and get into the spirit of them so I can't say I ever feel like I'm playing against a stacked hand.

Phazael
09-10-2012, 22:25
I didn't even make the argument that the Kadai was broken (which it clearly is by any objective measure), just that the kind of army typically fielded from this book tends to be an obstacle course rather than a tactical balanced army. I have no issue with a Kadai in a list with a tame amount of war machines and lots of infantry, in fact I think such an army would be a vastly superior take all comers army. What I do have issue with is the guy who brings minimum core, 2 pairs of Doom Rockets and Flame Cannons, and then buffs the Snuffatron and sends it up the gut. The game is not at all unlike playing the DoC guy with two giant bloodletter hordes backed by a couple of Tzeench heralds or the Lizardman guy with a bajillian Saurus backed by the etherial light slaan. At that point, the game simply becomes a checklist of if you have the various tools to jump through the checklist of hoops the army has made for you to jump through and strategic decisions about movement cease to matter.

I have faced the Kadai Cheerleading Squad army several times and its never been fun, win or lose. And I do not see how playing that army would be enjoyable, but I understand its place in the game. On the other hand, I faced a solidly built combat army with two war machines and some bull centaurs, backed by some magic, and that was a lot of fun to play against and actually made me want to make a CD army for myself. The first list is a much easier path to victory and people tend to take the easy route, but I wish more people actually tried the combat version of the army.

FashaTheDog
09-10-2012, 23:14
All this talk about K'Daai Cheer Leading Squad armies makes me want to actually build one, but only model all of my Chaos Dwarves with matching short skirts and pompoms. Unit fillers can include Chaos Dwarves being tossed into the air and pyramids.

TheSultanofBillGates
10-10-2012, 04:56
The Destroyer and Magma Cannon are too cheap.

The Iron Guard and Iron Sworn and Fireborn and Giant and Dreadquake Mortar are too expensive.

The rest is about right.

Great list. Too easy to make a gunline, but the same can be said of Empire. Chaos Dwarf players just need to get over the idea that they need a gunline to win. They don't. These aren't regular boring Dwarfs, no need to play like a regular boring Dwarf player.

Chaos Dwarf players who play gunlines should face criticism. Not for taking Chaos Dwarfs, but for taking a gunline. Same as an Empire gunline or a Dwarf gunline or a Wood Elf gunline.

dusk1983
10-10-2012, 05:30
Great list. Too easy to make a gunline, but the same can be said of Empire. Chaos Dwarf players just need to get over the idea that they need a gunline to win. They don't. These aren't regular boring Dwarfs, no need to play like a regular boring Dwarf player.

Chaos Dwarf players who play gunlines should face criticism. Not for taking Chaos Dwarfs, but for taking a gunline. Same as an Empire gunline or a Dwarf gunline or a Wood Elf gunline.

Completely agree with this.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 13:03
Chaos Dwarf players who play gunlines should face criticism. Not for taking Chaos Dwarfs, but for taking a gunline. Same as an Empire gunline or a Dwarf gunline or a Wood Elf gunline.

I agree, gunlines dont work any more :p


I have to concede that the CDs have some cool and fluffy rules, but they have too many special rules, all the other new books seem to be trying to reduce special rules.

BigbyWolf
10-10-2012, 14:59
played once against the "pre-Forgeworld fan-made version", only won because double boxed cars on his General's stubborn 10 break test.
That thing was broken.

Yeah, before the FW book came out I still used the 5th edition Ravening Hordes list for mine. The Fan-made book was just what most unofficial books turn out to be, a huge Fanboi-love-in that ends up with a totally mismatched army.

I've not used mine yet with the LOA rules, but I've played against them and they are quite fun. The Destroyer is hardly something to cry over. Sure, it's tough, but so are other things. I just played my own game and took it in my stride.

Brother Haephestus
10-10-2012, 19:51
I'm not going to say that everything is perfectly balanced, however:

Generally speaking, Forgeworld models tend to be overcosted as opposed to undercosted. However, don't start your counter-arguments until we get to the end

Forge World KNOWS they're going to be dealing with "upset" players. Producing material that is overpowered/undercosted results in them getting banned from general/tournament play. "Illegal" figures don't sell as much (generally hobbyists and collectors) as "fully legal" figures (as before, but now including players as well), so they are going to be very careful on how they scale things.

It is never the individual model that's "unfair", but rather, the entire game context. Most Forge World items have unique or powerful combinations that most other armies don't have access to, and this is where Forge World materials make things skittish. For example, Army A gets some awesome new Forge World abilities. Army B, however, is not currently supported by any specific materials. This means that the Army B player is most likely 1) unawares of the capabilities of the Forge World materials because he doesn't have access to the rules, 2) most likely didn't take these capabilities into account when he built his forces, and 3) is most likely going to be steamrolled because he is inprepared to answer the tactical challenge of handling said Forge World figure.

LOA tiptoes even further in because it's not just one or two items, but an entire army. Players who are unprepared for this challenge are going to feel pretty raw because their delicious plans for conquest just got seasoned with entirely too much hot sauce.

My own personal opinion: My personal generalship and tactical ability should be able to handle anything my opponent throws at me. If he wishes to use Chaos Dwarves, then I am going to enjoy myself facing a difficult challenge and a new nut to try and crack.

As to Destroyer/Magma Cannon abuse lists, et all: Players who abuse these elements when building their armies are the same players that will play Chosenstars, Irongutstars, etc. They are not looking for a tactical challenge and an enjoyable game - they are looking for a win at all costs. It is very hard for me to look at a tournament player and say that you cannot do this: the ultimate goal of the tournament is to win. However, to me, such army lists goes against the spirit of the game, and I would prefer not to play against you. I can't however call you wrong for doing so.

What I would LIKE to see, however, is that the Forge World releases are advertised/covered in White Dwarf (not necessarily rules-published) so that it would raise awareness of these items and stop taking people by surprise.

(Caveat: I own a few Forge World items, all 40K. I wanted alternate armor schemes for my Space Marines and their vehicles to make a kind-of pre-Heresy force. I have not yet, however, purchased any new unit stuff.)

FashaTheDog
10-10-2012, 20:44
I concur with Brother Haephestus in that Forgeworld units and lists really should be featured in White Dwarf battle reports, articles, and ads. In fact, I would actually like to see perhaps a monthly or ideally, but likely far from practical, weekly user submitted battle report on the website as well that meets White Dwarf standards and format and encourages inclusion of Forgeworld as part of the standard lineup. There are plenty of players who very well can and will do this. Perhaps a particularly good one could even get a White Dwarf feature. Regardless of source, by featuring Forgeworld units in battle reports, the increased exposure to the player base will not see wider acceptance for the lists and units, but also the sales thereof.

The website already shows more 40K Forgeworld units in the daily blog and I have noticed an increased acceptance of them, although the allies and second FOC rules has probably contributed to that more, but I did have one player request to fight my Death Korps of Krieg specifically because he saw an army of them featured on the website. Doing similar with the Legion of Azgorh or Great Host of Chaos armies and a variety of units added in, such as Nuln Ironsides or Marienburg Land Battleship, would likely see similar. I know many of the 40K crowd I play with widely accepts Forgeworld, but the Fantasy crowd is far more reserved when it comes to allowing Forgeworld on to the table. A few of them are more than accepting, but there are some who are steadfast against it (and in some cases also scornful of the Daemon book, but that is another topic altogether), granted this lack of acceptance comes mainly from the constant preparation for tournaments. I know it won't solve the problem overnight, but with an increased focus on Forgeworld, over time all that exposure will start to win over more and more players and dispel many of the misconceptions of Forgeworld.

Urgat
10-10-2012, 20:51
What I would LIKE to see, however, is that the Forge World releases are advertised/covered in White Dwarf (not necessarily rules-published) so that it would raise awareness of these items and stop taking people by surprise.

I never quite got why WD never really covers anything beyond what is released by the studio. It's not only FW stuff, it's everything: all the videogames, that space marine movie, the RPG, they never ever get more than a passing mention, like a quarter page saying "oh btw, this has been released this month". I have never managed to find a single reason besides "they don't like if it doesn't come from them". It makes no sense.

Hashut-Up!
11-10-2012, 06:54
Wow, two very differing sides in this discussion! I have a 3000 point legion of Azgorh army and must admit I think it is an absolutely brilliant addition to 8th edition. The models are AMAZING and it's power level is honestly right in the middle of the 8th edition books. As people have said, there are some units that are a serious bargain points wise, but the army really does balance itself out in other units points wise. I am usually horribly outnumbered in every battle, even against chaos warriors, and movement 3 is a killer.

To the gunline haters, is it just the magma cannon/deathshrieker spammers that you don't like? I run one of every war machine (due to looks, no duplicates) and have yet to ever hear a bad thing about it in any of my games (no destroyer though). My opponents and myself all love the sight of a varied, daunting group of warmachines on the board rather than your typical hordes of infantry built for close combat. Adds some serious flavour to the game.

Also, the new white dwarf actually had a decent sized forgeworld section in it, but it was almost all about the new 40k horus heresy book they released (though the preyton was shown). Maybe thats a good sign of things to come?

Wishing
11-10-2012, 07:32
I never quite got why WD never really covers anything beyond what is released by the studio. It's not only FW stuff, it's everything: all the videogames, that space marine movie, the RPG, they never ever get more than a passing mention, like a quarter page saying "oh btw, this has been released this month". I have never managed to find a single reason besides "they don't like if it doesn't come from them". It makes no sense.

It presumably makes sense from a world of business strategies and sales targets and so on. WD is an advertising pamphlet, after all. It's not made by gamers for gamers - it is made by businessmen for their target audience as a means to increase and control what their audience buys.

Urgat
11-10-2012, 08:17
Well, I'd be a busissman, I'd like my IP to be popular and sell more and for a higher price , so I'd advertise that kind of stuff :p

Phazael
11-10-2012, 15:51
Gunlines come in two flavors.

First is the "I am going to supplement my army with some threat removal shooting to counter monsters/take away ranks." variety. This type takes 2-4 units of dedicated shooters, often a pair of war machines and a pair of light shooters for chaffe removal. You might also see some long range magic to supplement that tactic. The bulk of the army points, however, are stuck in fighting and the shooting is simply meant to tip things in the persons favor by hitting a few key things before the combat gets going. A lot of times these shooting units might be capable of fighting, themselves, in a late game capacity, like Sea Guard, Iron Blasters, or Ancient Stegadons. No one minds this type of army, unless they are an over the top close combat maniac (which is another problem player, honestly).

The second is the Full Frontal Male Nudity Gunline. This army takes the absolute minimum of core options and puts them in a big line (with a stubborn crown in it) in front of as many war machines as their points will allow. There is also usually a small bunker unit to hide all of the characters as far back as possible. Often, these core units are all pure shooters themselves, with a general inability to do anything beyond run out the clock on the survivors that make it across the table. There is often a wizard running shadow tucked in the back and/or (in the case of the smarter ones) a series of chaffe units designed to eliminate any real possibility of close combat from happening in the game. This guy's plan is to play a game of 40k, where he shoots at you non stop and stall the game so that time is called at the bottom of turn three and he wins by 101 points. If there is anything capable of fighting in the list, its because its so indestructable and undercosted that there is zero risk in taking it (Kadai, Double Hydra, Abomb, ect) and just running it directly at the enemy battle line. This guy generally (and genuinely) wonders why he does not win all the time, despite his vast intellect of stacking 6-8 war machines across from everyone, blaming every loss on bad luck and not grasping the fact that all it takes is about 5 guys to make it across the table alive to crush what little combat elements exist in his army. Thats assuming that he does not slow play his butt off to prevent combat from ever occuring. He also really hates armies that can raise guys or that have lots of ward saves. This guy is a tool and generally only plays in tournaments because you can't stall in a casual game and no one ever wants to play this sort of army twice.

Right now, most people I have faced running LoA fall in the second catagory. The one I did not was actually a lot of fun to play and the game went down to the wire. The gunline ones are just an obstacle course of "run entire army straight at *********, tarpit Kadia with ward/cavalry unit, hope handful of shooting survivors are enough to kill the one block guarding all 8 war machines" decided entirely by the dice with no strategy involved. That is the principle issue I have with gunline lists, and I am fairly certain I am not alone in this regard. The only full on gunline that I think is even slightly acceptable are wood elves, because thats sort of the only thing they have, but after playing my Orion led forest spirit list lately, I am not so sure about that anymore.

Veshnakar
12-10-2012, 20:20
Right now, most people I have faced running LoA fall in the second catagory. The one I did not was actually a lot of fun to play and the game went down to the wire. The gunline ones are just an obstacle course of "run entire army straight at *********, tarpit Kadia with ward/cavalry unit, hope handful of shooting survivors are enough to kill the one block guarding all 8 war machines" decided entirely by the dice with no strategy involved. That is the principle issue I have with gunline lists, and I am fairly certain I am not alone in this regard.

You aren't at all alone in this sentiment. It's the same reason I am disappointing with so many dwarf players. It's so much easier to take two huge blocks of defensive great weapon dwarfs and back them up with nasty war machines, castle in a corner and either win or give their opponent a very difficult to achieve win.

Chaos Dwarfs suffer the same curse. Whereas you COULD field a cool army of really awesome miniatures (infernal guard, hobgoblins, bull centaur and kdaai) we instead often see minimum core, 2 deathshriekers, 3 magma cannons, and a Kdaai Destroyer. You won't see that out of me though! It's just a shame that a few bad apples always ruin the bunch. I really wish they would replace the Destroyer in the rare slot with a Bale Taurus instead. Similar role, but better costed and much less nasty, and very characterful for the army.

Perhaps if rules were put into effect to limit the use of war machines the game would take a step away from gunlines even being a possibility, and I really feel like that would be a great step into the right direction.

Anyhow, keep the feedback coming guys!

Urgat
12-10-2012, 21:08
I wonder, btw, all these people who field destroyers, what mini do they use, usually? Stonehorns, stuff like that?

Veshnakar
12-10-2012, 21:31
Usually, from what I have seen. Stonehorns or some large converted action figure. I made mine from a large bull toy from a model train shop as a base, added the head of a Ghorgon, and did all of the skin up as armor, with chains holding it together, with a magma/fire interior.

Plexi
15-10-2012, 03:12
It's an army list designed for a campaign, to be used within the confines of said campaign. How many people that have bought the book have actually played out the entire campaign? I'm willing to bet that the percentage is fairly low.

Veshnakar
15-10-2012, 04:38
It's an army list designed for a campaign, to be used within the confines of said campaign. How many people that have bought the book have actually played out the entire campaign? I'm willing to bet that the percentage is fairly low.

Might want to check page 105 of the Tamurkhan book at the very end of the text on that page. That seems to me that its not just meant for the confines of a campaign.

lisaundead
15-10-2012, 10:24
I played a friend yesterday who is a regular opponent of mine.
we had 2 smaller 1000pt games to try using different variant themes of both our armies.
He used High Elves for the first time against my Chaos Dwarves.

My friend repeatedly commented how "broken" the LoA rules were as he fought me to a draw in the first game (granted, due to horrendous bad luck with my dice - 2 miscasts in turn 2 and 2 misfires on magma cannon...BOOM!) and slaughetered me in the 2nd!
Yeah, broken, I told him!
I personally feel that the LoA rules allow the savvy CD player to field some awesome "themed" and "varied" lists that are in no way overpowered and should be a lot of fun to play and play against! :)

Veshnakar
15-10-2012, 15:26
I played a friend yesterday who is a regular opponent of mine.
we had 2 smaller 1000pt games to try using different variant themes of both our armies.
He used High Elves for the first time against my Chaos Dwarves.

My friend repeatedly commented how "broken" the LoA rules were as he fought me to a draw in the first game (granted, due to horrendous bad luck with my dice - 2 miscasts in turn 2 and 2 misfires on magma cannon...BOOM!) and slaughetered me in the 2nd
Yeah, broken, I told him
I personally feel that the LoA rules allow the savvy CD player to field some awesome "themed" and "varied" lists that are in no way overpowered and should be a lot of fun to play and play against! :)
That's one of the unfortunate downsides of playing a list that isn't known by many and many don't consider part of the core rules. If someone gets trounced by let's say tomb kings or warriors of chaos, they will be more inclined to believe it was personal error but if they get wiped out by a list that they don't consider part of the core rules, aren't used to, or weren't aware of they will almost always claim that its overpowered.

Only suggestion I can offer is to switch armies for a couple of games and see of they still feel the same. Usually is a hasty decision made without proper judgement. It definitely doesn't help that so many do gunline lists with the Chaos Dwarf list. Everyone hates facing a gunline.

Montegue
15-10-2012, 17:50
As a dwarf player, I look at their list, then I look at my list, and I have to sadly laugh. Not only do they get a dwarf list with excellent magic, the best monsters in the game, amazing artillery, and excellent core troops, but they also have a Dwarf army that can compete in the movement phase. The T8, W8, S8 chariot of death, the K'dai destroyer, the Lore of Hashut...they have an amazing army, probably the best in the game.

I got run off the table by turn 4 this past weekend basically just watching the other player play. It's all the little details that make the CD army broken - the penalties to wound, the amazingly resilient and combatively effective powerful wizards, etc. They went way, way overboard with that army. Monstrous infantry? Sure! Here you go. Flying monsters? Swift cav? Enjoy!

Djekar
15-10-2012, 18:30
I really think chaos dwarves need a down side. I've thought that since I started back in 4th/5th edition. It seems (from my admittedly limited experience with the LoA) that they are still dwarves with slightly different war machines, cheap chaff, big scary monsters and magic - you know, all the things that keep dwarves from being a powerhouse. So while I voted that I would play them regardless of the situation, I still don't think that they are a particularly enjoyable army to square off against.

Phazael
15-10-2012, 19:16
Their problem is not their power level. They actually are a mid tier list, in my experience. Its just that they tend to have one boring playstyle that involves little in the way of strategy and more in the way of "do I have the counter for this" checklist type play. Most CD armies get stuffed if you can tarpit the Kadai and your army can handle the shooting while crossing the table. Its a shame too, because the combat oriented list (even with a Kadai) is fairly interesting, but almost no one uses it.

GrandmasterWang
16-10-2012, 01:55
Heh, I play dwarfs and chaos dwarfs and overall feel dwarfs are the stronger army. Chaos dwarfs are certainly not dwarfs +. An infernal guard with a gw is 15 pts. While better armored, these guys are less skilled (ws 4) than the stubborn 12 pt hammerers.

dusk1983
16-10-2012, 02:45
Heh, I play dwarfs and chaos dwarfs and overall feel dwarfs are the stronger army. Chaos dwarfs are certainly not dwarfs +. An infernal guard with a gw is 15 pts. While better armored, these guys are less skilled (ws 4) than the stubborn 12 pt hammerers.

To play devils advocate Hammerers are not a core choice. but the points difference is definitely a thing. Plus the complaint that CD get faster units in the form of bull centaur and K'daii isnt taking into account that the core of the army is still movement three. Which means those fast moving units are either unsupported (admittedly not a big deal for the Cheese Destroyer) or have to hold back for a few turns anyway.

But its all semantics. I've not played dwarves although Ive read the book and they are sorely in need of an update, one which they will doubtlessly see within the next two years (and proabbly before my beloved wood elves on an unrelated note). Tamurkhan will have to do CD players for at least a decade. If anything its probably indicative of some of the kind of things dwarf players may have to look forward to in their next update (stretching I know)

lisaundead
16-10-2012, 11:09
That's one of the unfortunate downsides of playing a list that isn't known by many and many don't consider part of the core rules. If someone gets trounced by let's say tomb kings or warriors of chaos, they will be more inclined to believe it was personal error but if they get wiped out by a list that they don't consider part of the core rules, aren't used to, or weren't aware of they will almost always claim that its overpowered.

Only suggestion I can offer is to switch armies for a couple of games and see of they still feel the same. Usually is a hasty decision made without proper judgement. It definitely doesn't help that so many do gunline lists with the Chaos Dwarf list. Everyone hates facing a gunline.

Thats the way I look at it, Im going to try mixing and matching the CD lists as well as playing my other armies so that he can beat me without feeling that he's facing a broken list.
I dont usually field a gunline, although during the 1000 pt games, we both tried different variations of our lists so it was expected that I would at least try a gunline ONCE!
I really like the idea of a combat heavy list for larger games, with NO warmachines at all....Ill see how he likes playing against that :)

Montegue
16-10-2012, 15:04
To play devils advocate Hammerers are not a core choice. but the points difference is definitely a thing. Plus the complaint that CD get faster units in the form of bull centaur and K'daii isnt taking into account that the core of the army is still movement three. Which means those fast moving units are either unsupported (admittedly not a big deal for the Cheese Destroyer) or have to hold back for a few turns anyway.

Not only are the Hammerers not a core choice, but they only have heavy armor, as opposed to the Chaos version of Gromril. Every CD on the field is essentially an Ironbreaker if you give them the cheaper HW/S combo. Furthermore, they get a magic banner which can draw from the book. Put a castellan in there and now they have stubborn. In order for a Dwarf to make his Ironbreakers stubborn he has to not only spend points in Special, which is where all of his best stuff is, but he also has to buy a Dwarf Lord and then give that lord a 100pt Runic Talisman. Even if you don't use a castellan, you can drop 35 points on the crown of command and have a very resilient caster that makes an entire unit stubborn.

A group of WS4, S4, T4 dwarfs with a 3+ AS and a 6+ parry save, not to mention the possibility of being augmented by the magic phase (via hex on the enemy) is basically far and away superior to anything the Dwarfs can put on the table. And it's core. The fact that the Castellan makes them stubborn means, pound for pound, that horde of Chaos Dwarfs is going to wreck shop.

The caster miscasts and gets tougher. The monsters force a -1 to wound while being T6 (essentially making them T7) and having a ton of wounds and other special rules. The chariot is like a steam tank on steroids. Sure, there's no cannon, but who cares? T8 with 8 wounds and a ton of impact hits, including a super thunderstomp, is amazing. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the artillery. They have a flame cannon that not only works, unlike the dwarf flame cannon, but works amazingly well. They have a rocket launcher that hits at a high strength on the large template. Ugh. They have access to a hellcannon for the S5 stone thrower template. Many of their war machines also force a panic test.

Think about it this way - regular Dwarfs trade their Magic phase, their movement phase, and any model types beyond infantry and war machines for strong anti magic, WS4, and T4. Chaos Dwarfs get a magic phase (Which is much more useful than simply eliminating an enemy's magic phase..if you're lucky and they don't IF), access to all troop types (monstrous infantry, monsters, cavalry, swift cav, monstrous cav, etc), an army that can actually bring the pain immediately, and superior war machines.

Regular dwarfs do have some customization options for runes, which can be nice for our artillery, but in the end, I'd rather have a big template without a reroll than a small template with one.

They're not Dwarfs+, they're Dwarfs +++.

GrandmasterWang
17-10-2012, 03:15
Haha montegue... I just read your rant and have to say something...

Chaos dwarfs can have rerolls for their templates too ;)

I have significant experience with both armies and stand by my opinions on dwarfs being stronger. In a straight shootoff dwarfs crush chaos dwarfs hands down with rerolling cannons, bolt throwers, and strength 5 rerolling grudge throwers which are substantially cheaper than the cd artillery. For a dreadquake (with ogre obviously) you can have 2 cannons and a bolt thrower.

Re: The steam tank on crack comment, the iron daemon really isnt all that. Its slow, and if you use the skull cracker (super thunderstomp) it cant shoot. While it can thunderstomp dwarfs, a gyrocopter (or any other army's mounted plebs) actually have a good chance of beating it in combat. For roughly 300 pts, 3 strength 3 attacks isnt that fearsome ;)

re: the stubborn castellan. This is a big boon for chaos dwarfs, however they are 40 pts more than the thane for the same stats etc.

Re: infernal guard. They are ws 4 so not as good as iron breakers. Very solid though, not knocking them. I love my parry saving blunderbuss troops.

Re: magic. Chaos dwarf lore is brutal, however they pay through the nose for it. A lvl 4 with NOTHING is already 300 pts. You can get a runelord with an anvil for those pts

Chaos dwarf army has two broken things in it... Destroyer and Magma cannon (trust me montegue as a dwarf player with 2 lovely flame cannon models I feel your pain here). Exclude these and they are one of the weaker armies out there (not that I have a problem with that). Even uncluding them they are still not 'top tier'

For the record I have actually run pure melee chaos dwarfs without a destroyer(hate the ire it brings the dark stunties) and had some great games. At 275 pts, no one complains when they see a seige giant :)

Da Crusha
17-10-2012, 11:02
thank you grandmaster wang, too much complaining going on here without knowing the facts.

some more bad things about the list:

no kdaii without a wizard
no Bull centaur hero without a unit of bull centaurs
Bull centaur hero cannot be the general or the Battle standard bearer
Bulll centaur hero cannot carry the Black hammer of hashut
Chaos dwarf heros cannot be in hobgoblin units
fireborn cost 55 pts and only have 2 wounds and 2 attacks and are unstable.
bull centaurs are 40 pts, on a 50x75mm base and only have 2S4 attacks
basic chaos dwarf upgrades cost 3 pts for great weapons, 5 for fireglaives and 6 for blunderbuss.
fireglaives are poorer handguns, yes they are halberds but, they are 18" S4 with no +1 to hit modifier like normal dwarfs.

also, if a low level wizard miscasts, it has practically a 1/3 chance of taking 2 wounds from it and dying immediately. 1 from the miscast and the second from a failed Toughness test.

Iron deamon (train) only has impact hits on the turn it charges with specifically no thunderstomp and 3 S3 Chaos dwarf attacks. later it only has the 3 attacks and thunderstomp making it extremely easy to stop with light cavalry or anything bigger. 300 points down the drain. also it can only charge straight forward. it cannot pivot before hand, meaning the target could possibly move 4 inches to the left or right and the iron deamon can no longer charge it.

the dreadquake costs more than twice as much as the older earthshaker and its quake is less than half as effective. it will also blow up 50% of the time it misfires.




They have a rocket launcher that hits at a high strength on the large template. Ugh. They have access to a hellcannon for the S5 stone thrower template. Many of their war machines also force a panic test

the Deathshrieker rocket launcher can either fire a S8 D6 wound shot that can only effect one model or a S3 1 wound Template that can be either the 5" or 3" template depending on a scatter result.

only the Low strength rocket shot and the hellcannon (which will be nerfed soon because we take the rules from WoC) cause panic tests.

Karak Norn Clansman
17-10-2012, 11:30
As long as the Chaos Dwarf player uses his common sense and avoids too many warmachines and K'daai Destroyers no one should have a reason to refuse playing against the army simply because its list was published in Throne of Tamurkhan.

GrandmasterWang
17-10-2012, 12:36
For balance reasons I am very glad a centaur boss cant use the black hammer.

I had enough tears when my 540 pt fluff prophet on taurus insta killed a tomb king off a chariot.

Death shriekers are good, but grudge throwers and cannons are better (cheers for enlightning those that misinterpreted the rules Da Crusha)

Chaos dwarfs have one big advantage over Dwarfs and that is versatility. Dwarfs do guns and troops better which is how it should be. Im actually pretty happy with the loa but miss my normal (dwarf equivalent) troops and would have liked a combat lord option (yes, I do use them lol)

To nitpick ~ iron daemon is t7 with 7 wounds. Great fluffy choice (both options) and artillery train is an awesome idea.... however this example of chaos dwarf engineering should really not be complained about as being too powerful.

People are being turned off the children of Hashut by destroyer shennanigans and boring gunline tactics. This is a damn shame as they have so much more to offer.

I wish I could play a lot of the 'haters' on here with my chaos dwarfs. I'm not saying I would win or lose but from what im reading by some it would be a much better game than what they are used too. Damn these waac types giving the Rulers of the Darklands a bad name with their boring lists.

Serious question, for those who have faced the Chaos Dwarfs, how many games vs them have you had and have you ever faced a seige giant?

Montegue
17-10-2012, 17:51
thank you grandmaster wang, too much complaining going on here without knowing the facts.

some more bad things about the list:

no kdaii without a wizard

This is a problem how?



no Bull centaur hero without a unit of bull centaurs

This is a problem how?



Bull centaur hero cannot be the general or the Battle standard bearer

Why is this a problem?



Bulll centaur hero cannot carry the Black hammer of hashut

Why is this an issue?



Chaos dwarf heros cannot be in hobgoblin units

Irrelevant. Within 12 inches of the general that unit will be leadership 10, most likely, with a reroll. Nearly unbreakable to be honest, so long as it maintains steadfast. Then again, why get hobgoblins when you have access to 3+ armor save S4 ws 4 dwarfs?



fireborn cost 55 pts and only have 2 wounds and 2 attacks and are unstable.

And a stomp. And I imagine other rules you have not mentioned here. They're monstrous infantry and move faster than a 3.



bull centaurs are 40 pts, on a 50x75mm base and only have 2S4 attacks

And a stomp, yes? Also, they actually have a movement phase to work with.



basic chaos dwarf upgrades cost 3 pts for great weapons, 5 for fireglaives and 6 for blunderbuss.


Which is why you take them with HW and Shield, giving you Ironbreakers for one less point per model.



fireglaives are poorer handguns, yes they are halberds but, they are 18" S4 with no +1 to hit modifier like normal dwarfs.

So, you have a group of 4+ armor save, S5, WS 4 dwarfs that get a stand and shoot in addition to an 18 inch S4 armor piercing ranged weapon. How is this bad?



also, if a low level wizard miscasts, it has practically a 1/3 chance of taking 2 wounds from it and dying immediately. 1 from the miscast and the second from a failed Toughness test.

Doesn't he gain toughness? Also, how hard it is to miss a T5 toughness check?



Iron deamon (train) only has impact hits on the turn it charges with specifically no thunderstomp and 3 S3 Chaos dwarf attacks. later it only has the 3 attacks and thunderstomp making it extremely easy to stop with light cavalry or anything bigger. 300 points down the drain. also it can only charge straight forward. it cannot pivot before hand, meaning the target could possibly move 4 inches to the left or right and the iron deamon can no longer charge it.

Doesn't it have an upgrade to give it 2d6 on the Thunderstomp? T-stomp is also at S8, and those little dwarfs are treated as T8 for some inexplicable reason. given that the tank has 8 wounds, if it gets into your lines (and it very well could, given it's charge range) it's going to punish you turn after turn. It's better than a steam tank in my opinion.

The rocket launcher I was seeing used the large template at a high strength, and could make it's way back to your troops on the small template. It hit like a mack truck and was as likely to hit as a doom driva. And even if it did screw the pooch, the soul seeking ammo could just as easily send it careening into your lines anyway. Hands down probably the best artillery in the game.

Chaos Dwarfs have access to everything the Dwarfs must sacrifice to be dwarfs. Here's for hoping that, should they ever actually get around to doing a new Dwarf book, they use the Chaos Dwarfs as a model in terms of troop diversity and power.

Urgat
17-10-2012, 18:04
Why is this an issue?

It's an issue because the only bull centaur I converted is sporting a banner and was supposed to be my BSB (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?101658-The-Gut-Reapa-(orcs-and-gobs-army-probably-image-heavy-soon)&p=3795974&viewfull=1#post3795974) :o
I'll ask my friends if they're fine with ignoring the restrictions on him, I'll barter that with not fielding a destroyer, I suspect they will agree :p


Then again, why get hobgoblins when you have access to 3+ armor save S4 ws 4 dwarfs?

If you think about it for a few moments, maybe it'll click.

Hashut-Up!
17-10-2012, 18:38
Doesn't it have an upgrade to give it 2d6 on the Thunderstomp? T-stomp is also at S8, and those little dwarfs are treated as T8 for some inexplicable reason. given that the tank has 8 wounds, if it gets into your lines (and it very well could, given it's charge range) it's going to punish you turn after turn. It's better than a steam tank in my opinion.

The rocket launcher I was seeing used the large template at a high strength, and could make it's way back to your troops on the small template. It hit like a mack truck and was as likely to hit as a doom driva. And even if it did screw the pooch, the soul seeking ammo could just as easily send it careening into your lines anyway. Hands down probably the best artillery in the game.

Chaos Dwarfs have access to everything the Dwarfs must sacrifice to be dwarfs. Here's for hoping that, should they ever actually get around to doing a new Dwarf book, they use the Chaos Dwarfs as a model in terms of troop diversity and power.

Montegue I have a feeling that you got cheated by the Chaos Dwarf player you went up against, or he had no idea what his units actually did. So much of what you are saying is overpowered and trumps all other things is quite a bit over-inflated (with the exception of the destroyer, it's gross but can be countered with a small points investment that is not typically found in an all-comers list). Where to start is the hard part.....

The skullcracker (the 2d6 super chariot of death you so aptly named) is honestly considered a poor choice by many chaos dwarf players, along with the iron daemon. First, unless it is fighting infantry or war beasts, it gets a whopping 3 str 3 attacks per turn. I know, amazing for the low, low cost of 300 points. These iron monsters are also very unwieldy, but can be great in the hands of a canny general. Since you are a dwarf player, I imagine these must be frightening as you essentially only have infantry, but two cannons guided by an engineer will make scrap metal out of them quickly, and other races can just counter them with monstrous beasts, cavalry of all sorts, or a monster and it quickly becomes 300 wasted points. No thunderstomp=no damage, seriously, and the steam cannonade on the iron daemon is only decent at best and doesn't really do too much at all barring lucky rolling/targets. This thing is a very expensive tar-pit most of the time (a very good one in my opinion, but I'm partial to the model as well), and has to be deployed/used very well to even come close to seeing its points come back.

The deathshrieker (the rocket launcher) has a str 3 large blast or a str 8 hits one target shot. The two shots are never combined, so your opponent cheated you by accident or on purpose. That being said, the deathshrieker is a superb weapon but not nearly as devastating as you say it is. I can see how a str 8 large blast that homes in on missed targets would be disgusting.

The chaos dwarfs don't really have access to that much diversity either. We have one lord choice, and 2 core choices. The lord slot being our highest level wizard as well as general makes him an enormous target, and he is not very difficult to kill if you anyone touches him in close combat. He has to be built to survive and this is not very flexible, otherwise we can quickly lose one of our most important models. Our core chaos dwarf unit, the infernal guard, is a very pricey unit and given the large majority of other units in the chaos dwarf list are pricey as well, sees that any chaos dwarf army is typically outnumbered even by other elite armies such as warriors of chaos. This is also where a unit of hobgoblins comes in as necessity. We need bodies, otherwise any army can put the chaos dwarfs into a grinder they will eventually lose to attrition.

I would suggest you read (or reread) the tamurkhan book, look at it from a different angle and forget about your previous experience with a cheating/poor player. It really is a great addition to the warhammer world, and not one that just rolls over all of the competition. Anything in warhammer can look overpowered if given the right or wrong context.

Petey
17-10-2012, 18:56
Montegue I have a feeling that you got cheated by the Chaos Dwarf player you went up against, or he had no idea what his units actually did. So much of what you are saying is overpowered and trumps all other things is quite a bit over-inflated (with the exception of the destroyer, it's gross but can be countered with a small points investment that is not typically found in an all-comers list). Where to start is the hard part.....

The skullcracker (the 2d6 super chariot of death you so aptly named) is honestly considered a poor choice by many chaos dwarf players, along with the iron daemon. First, unless it is fighting infantry or war beasts, it gets a whopping 3 str 3 attacks per turn. I know, amazing for the low, low cost of 300 points. These iron monsters are also very unwieldy, but can be great in the hands of a canny general. Since you are a dwarf player, I imagine these must be frightening as you essentially only have infantry, but two cannons guided by an engineer will make scrap metal out of them quickly, and other races can just counter them with monstrous beasts, cavalry of all sorts, or a monster and it quickly becomes 300 wasted points. No thunderstomp=no damage, seriously, and the steam cannonade on the iron daemon is only decent at best and doesn't really do too much at all barring lucky rolling/targets. This thing is a very expensive tar-pit most of the time (a very good one in my opinion, but I'm partial to the model as well), and has to be deployed/used very well to even come close to seeing its points come back.

The deathshrieker (the rocket launcher) has a str 3 large blast or a str 8 hits one target shot. The two shots are never combined, so your opponent cheated you by accident or on purpose. That being said, the deathshrieker is a superb weapon but not nearly as devastating as you say it is. I can see how a str 8 large blast that homes in on missed targets would be disgusting.

The chaos dwarfs don't really have access to that much diversity either. We have one lord choice, and 2 core choices. The lord slot being our highest level wizard as well as general makes him an enormous target, and he is not very difficult to kill if you anyone touches him in close combat. He has to be built to survive and this is not very flexible, otherwise we can quickly lose one of our most important models. Our core chaos dwarf unit, the infernal guard, is a very pricey unit and given the large majority of other units in the chaos dwarf list are pricey as well, sees that any chaos dwarf army is typically outnumbered even by other elite armies such as warriors of chaos. This is also where a unit of hobgoblins comes in as necessity. We need bodies, otherwise any army can put the chaos dwarfs into a grinder they will eventually lose to attrition.

I would suggest you read (or reread) the tamurkhan book, look at it from a different angle and forget about your previous experience with a cheating/poor player. It really is a great addition to the warhammer world, and not one that just rolls over all of the competition. Anything in warhammer can look overpowered if given the right or wrong context.

QFT. words for the word god

Da Crusha
17-10-2012, 22:43
@ montegue: all of these restrictions reduce our versatility that you keep saying we have. thats why they are problems.

Ironbreakers also have +1 WS over our infernal guard.

fireglaives are 17 points per model thats how its bad.

we bring hobgoblins to make up for our lack of numbers. a whole bunch of expensive unit choices lead to small armies. when a chaos dwarf hero cant be in a unit of hobgoblins they are not as reliable. I use the HGs to form a steadfast unit on a flank. if the unit is outnumbered or the general has died the the unit is useless. useless choices in an army that already outnumbered is not good. thats why it is relevant.

Toughness 4 on the low level wizard. after they fail the T test he gets the +1 to Toughness. which often means he dies.

2 upgrades required for the +1W +1T and the 2d6 Thunderstomp. 340 point total and can be held u by 60 points of wolf riders or anything better that isnt infantry. thunderstomp only works on infantry, swarms and beasts,.. thats it.

you were misinformed about the rocket launcher.

TheSultanofBillGates
17-10-2012, 23:00
Chaos Dwarfs are a decent army. Dwarfs are a bad army.

Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs are both annoying when the player fielding them is an ass and takes a gunline.

That's all we are learning here.

I'd much rather play AGAINST a list with some varied unit choices - some monstrous infantry, some monsters, some magic, some ability to move around the table - than against regular Dwarfs.

"Oh, 3 hordes of GW infantry and a bunch of war machines. How unusual. See you in the corner then."

How to spell boring: D - W - A - R - F

Just because GW has screwed up the Dwarf army ever since they removed the M penalty for wearing armour (which Dwarfs ignored - thus making them seem faster in comparison), is no reason to complain that FW gave Chaos Dwarf players something useable and fun.

GrandmasterWang
18-10-2012, 08:51
Dwarfs are not a bad army.

With strollaz, challenbe rune, scouts, miners and the anvil they can arguably pull more movement shennanigans than any other armies in the game. They are currently the only army that can pull a magic phase charge.

Re: the iron breaker / infernal comparison, it's the 17 pt ironsworn that ironbreakers should be compared to as they are both special and have the same stat line. Ironsworn (i like em) have ensorcelled weapons for the 4 points difference.

Montegue, I dont know which army's rules you have been playing against but it is not the loa. Strength 8 large templates with doom diver accuracy lol........ Yep, you definitely got screwed.

dusk1983
18-10-2012, 10:10
...They are currently the only army that can pull a magic phase charge...


Wood Elves Lore of Athel Loren has a charge spell.

Antipathy
18-10-2012, 23:09
Technically they do. But that is like saying a Chocloate Fireguard is still a fireguard.

Da Crusha
20-10-2012, 01:35
so with all of the ranting of chaos dwarf vs good dwarfs I decided to look over the dwarf army book. its got me drooling over runic cannons and catapults and my beloved bolt throwers. also the shear diversity to make my own magic items. a fighty lord, scouts, magical charges, cheap dwarfs. Im tempted to pull the army out and start using again.

Morhgoz
20-10-2012, 18:35
I really like LoA and I'm planning to build 3000 pts army of them. I think nobody can say that list I'm planning is broken or cheesy, with no K'daai and over 100 hobgoblins on foot or mounted. I have loved those sneaky little bastards and they fluff from 5th edition when I had them as allies in my O&G army.

Here is link to list I'm planning to build: Morhgoz 3000 pts LoA (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355603-3000-pts-Legion-of-Azgorh-with-lots-of-models)

Da Crusha
21-10-2012, 10:10
I really like LoA and I'm planning to build 3000 pts army of them. I think nobody can say that list I'm planning is broken or cheesy, with no K'daai and over 100 hobgoblins on foot or mounted. I have loved those sneaky little bastards and they fluff from 5th edition when I had them as allies in my O&G army.

Here is link to list I'm planning to build: Morhgoz 3000 pts LoA (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355603-3000-pts-Legion-of-Azgorh-with-lots-of-models)

I used a similar (kinda) list a while ago. 2500 points, it relied on some 150 hobgoblins and 5 or 6 warmachines, iron deamon and I think 2 deamonsmiths and a Sorceror lord. my plan was to shoot the heck out of everything relying on deathshrieker rockets and hellcannon to cause panic. flame cage, ashstorm and dreadquake shells to slow the enemy. and 3 units of hobgobs to tarpit. had no infernal guard or kdaai. it was the cheesiest list I could think of and it didnt slow the enemy enough or cause enough damage. eventually I scrapped it and have been running a typical list, well, with usually just one or 2 war machines.

Urgat
21-10-2012, 10:15
I'm kindda tinckering with a 1500 pts list now... the one I originally made was before the LoA list was made (heck, it was during 7th ed anyway), so obviously it's no good at all anymore >>
So many stuff out... my bull centaur BSB, my black orcs ><

Da Crusha
21-10-2012, 11:20
I feel ya man. I used to LOVE my earthshakers. now the dreadquake just doesn't compare. my RH list was pretty mean in general. I tried making a similar LoA list but it just doesnt work out with the expensive Infernal guard and Hobgoblins costing twice as much. low level wizards have no access to Shadow magic. I had to change everything, but now I feel like my current list is pretty competitive. currently running 3 units of IG, 1 is a Blunderbuss unit (not the most competitive option I know), a prophet, a deamonsmith 2 castellans, 1 is a bsb, a deathshrieker and a destroyer. the list holds up pretty well. will probably bring it to the next few tourneys.

Urgat
21-10-2012, 12:01
Blunderbusses seem good to me? If you take enough to get all the bonus (20 or 30? don't remember) and put them in two ranks, they seem able to dish out a lot of pain (although for only one or two turns, granted), then still act as a decent anvil unit. Well, that's my reading on them at elast, it's all theory, not going to be tried before at least 2 or 3 months.
Honestly 2pts hobgobs was absurd :p

Morhgoz
21-10-2012, 13:36
Honestly 2pts hobgobs was absurd :p
Yep, at the prize of lowly skaven slave, you did get model with stat almost same as human soldier...

Kallstrom
21-10-2012, 13:51
Blunderbusses seem good to me? If you take enough to get all the bonus (20 or 30? don't remember) and put them in two ranks, they seem able to dish out a lot of pain (although for only one or two turns, granted), then still act as a decent anvil unit. Well, that's my reading on them at elast, it's all theory, not going to be tried before at least 2 or 3 months.
Honestly 2pts hobgobs was absurd :p

The blunderbuss is range 12" and Str 3. But it can be really good, if you get a good matchup. However, if you get flanked or reared you can be picked on pretty easily in CC. :)

jimbo2
22-10-2012, 18:38
Out of curiosity does anyone know if FW have mentioned producing a Blunderbuss weapon kit at some point? Or was it just one of those rules entries included so people could still use their old models like Hobgoblins?

Da Crusha
23-10-2012, 01:25
the thing about blunderbuss is they cost too much. sure they can wipe out units in a few volleys but for +6 points a model, I am spending 156 points (26 Blunderbuss) on a 12" ranged attack. I could just as easily spend 145 points on a magma cannon and have a threat range of 34" + the flame template. the damage output can be comparable but the range difference is significant, not to mention the D3 wounds.

@jibmo: havent heard anything about them.

Urgat
23-10-2012, 07:20
the thing about blunderbuss is they cost too much. sure they can wipe out units in a few volleys but for +6 points a model, I am spending 156 points (26 Blunderbuss) on a 12" ranged attack. I could just as easily spend 145 points on a magma cannon and have a threat range of 34" + the flame template. the damage output can be comparable but the range difference is significant, not to mention the D3 wounds.

But it's useless the moment the enemy reaches your lines, unlike the blunderbusses. Those guys are still among the most resilient cores in the game.

Da Crusha
23-10-2012, 08:21
say I put the points to a magma cannon, the Infernal Guard will still be there. they won't be holding blunderbuss anymore but now the points won't be tied up in combat. the magma cannon will be free to fire at any target like it has from turn 1. the resilient infernal guard will still hold the line.

Urgat
23-10-2012, 09:26
I'm not saying the magma cannon isn't good (heck no :p), I'm saying that against, say, my regular chaos warrior opponent, there comes a moment (and it comes fast, especially if I bring shooting) where everything is in melee, and well at that point the magma cannon can't shoot at anything anymore, worse, it's probably toast if anything gets its chaos-armored paws on it. The blunderbusses, on the other hand, can join the fray and even not be wiped out in one turn. My problem with loading on cannons is that, as been widely discussed, chaos dwarfs are very expensve. I'm a horde player at heart (well I'm a goblin player, what do you expect? :p), and I wouldn't feel at ease without at least 3 or 4 core blocks. One at least should be a propper anvil (warriors with boards and HW), one should bring steadfast (hobgobs), and one should be versatile, and I always expect that one to be expensive (blunderbusses). Maybe I'm wrong ( entirelly too possible, it's all theory for now, I don't have half my chaos dwarf stuff painted yet and I don't play stuff I haven't painted), but it doesn't sound wrong to me at least :) Of course, there's also the fact I don't have a model for it (only got the old doom rocket), but I do have 22 blunderbusses :p

Da Crusha
23-10-2012, 10:16
hmmm, the one thing I do like about using the blunderbuss unit over the magma cannon is the blunderbuss can't misfire. and isn't easily destroyed by fast cav war machine hunters.

GrandmasterWang
24-10-2012, 12:40
I tried a fluff list with a 40 strong blunder horde (740pts... Ouch) with bsb in it. (2500pts).Ended up dominating the 2 games I played with it but the blunders didnt do much except look great. As you can imagine my opponents treated the unit like it had the plague. Great for area denial.... I mean who wants to risk taking a potential 120 shots in the way in. Both games they killed about 150 pts worth of stuff but didnt die. Going that many the sheer size of the unit with their short range is a problem. My 560 pt prophet with black hammer managed to pump and not die in both games. Hashut must have been watching over him (didnt take a wound and never miscast).

Glory to Hashut!

Far2Casual
24-10-2012, 13:30
LoA is a list that will make you win big against beginners and horde users. LoA is also a list that will make you happy when you get draws against good players. In tournaments, it's a mid-tier amy at best.

The Skaven-LoA matchup for example is retarded, it's worse than the Skaven-WoC matchup. With the standard Dreaded 13th, WLC, slaves, Doomrocket and the like, the Skavens can just sit back and roll dices to take the win.

Montegue
24-10-2012, 19:42
Greetings,

The monster truck with the big hammers did a massive amount of impact hits, had a very high toughness, and very high wounds. It went up against my war machine, so I didn't see the T-stomp, but I thought I recalled my opponent thinking it had some sort of strong melee attack in addition to it's high toughness and wounds. Either way, I wasn't going to break it with a horde of great weapons before that horde got flanked and run off.

The versatility I talk about is in comparison with Dwarfs, the crux of my overall point. When compared with dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs have an insane amount of versatility at precious little in terms of cost. Their leadership, toughness, high weapon skill, and armor are all in line with dwarfs. Their artillery is arguably better, or at least more interesting, and they have access to all troop types available in the game (Monstrous cav, cav, swift cav, infantry, ranged infantry, war machines, monsters, monstrous infantry, etc etc). This allows them to field a diverse army that can compete in every single phase of the game.

Dwarfs, by contrast, can field war machines and infantry (ranged and melee). We have no magic phase, and while it's true that we can shut down our opponent's, any roll of boxcars means we just watch as our lines get decimated by dwellers or some other horrible spell. The Lore of Hashut is badass. The wizards that use the Lore of Hashut are tough as any Dwarf Lord. Their core troop is basically just as good as our Ironbreakers, and if you stick a Castellan in there they are stubborn. That's such a huge advantage.

The comparison is valid, even if the information I had wasn't remembered correctly or delivered correctly. The Chaos Dwarf list has some severely overpowered options (the Destroyer), and when you put them up next to traditional dwarfs our chaos worshiping cousins are significantly better. Don't get me wrong - cannons are great. But when you have only one round to deal with something with T8 and 8 wounds, you better hope your rolls are on fire, or you're going to lose.

GrandmasterWang
25-10-2012, 01:21
Dwarfs are the least versatile army in warhammer though. Chaos dwarfs actually struggle a lot with dwarf gunlines. Re: the t8, 8 wounds engine, it is only 2d6 for movement so you will have several turns to shoot at it (cds dont have great war machine hunters). With the 3 cannons you can have for cheaper than its points, there is a great chance to take it out turn 1!! (2+ to wound, d6 wounds). Its basically guaranteed to die before it hits the dwarf lines.

No one would argue that Dwarfs are more veratile than Chaos Dwarfs. That said, they do have some big advantages with miners and scouts, in addition to being able to beat them in a straight up infantry or shooting war (if chaos dwarfs could take 10pt gw infantry you wouldnt see many Ig around)

Basically chaos dwarfs pay a lot for their versatility and every one of their options is inferior to an equivalent in another army book (hobgobbos vs goblins/marauders, wolf riders vs wolf riders, centaurs vs trolls/demigryphs etc etc)

The prophet really isnt all that. Given a lvl 4 naked costs 300 pts and is only weaponskill 5 it should be somewhat hard to kill. Most armies have superior wizard options. Dwarfs can have 2 runelords (+4 dispell dice) for the same, each being harder to kill than the prophet.

Destroyer and magma cannon are op. Everything else is balanced to overpriced. A waac dwarf army is much more fearsome than a waac chaos dwarf one.

Montegue
25-10-2012, 21:14
Destroyer and magma cannon are op. Everything else is balanced to overpriced. A waac dwarf army is much more fearsome than a waac chaos dwarf one.

Gotta disagree with that last one. Dwarf artillery may or may not win the artillery war, but CD troops are much better than ours. First of all, the heroes make them stubborn. They have a 3+ armor save with the standard load out of HW/S. Their WS has them hitting and wounding on 4s. They can take book-based magic items, including magic standards. The standard Chaos Dwarf warrior is a lot better than the Standard Dwarf warrior with a great weapon, for only 2 points more. Give them a castellan, and they're better than hammerers. They swing first, they have a 6+/6+ save against the wounds, and they are stubborn just the same. Not to mention a magic phase that, if it gets through, will turn the course of the fight completely. Their core troops dominate the basic great Weapon warrior, who only makes their save a 5+/6+, has the same WS, etc etc.

However, every large unit the CDs can field - the Taurus, the K'dai, the artillery, is an absolute must-kill for the Dawi, or it's game over. A could of rocket hits and your units are done for. Don't kill the K'dai or other large monster? it's curtains. And with Chaos Dwarfs, you can include cavalry, monstrous cavalry, etc, to provide a real and powerful movement phase. The Dwarfs cannot compete in two of the three phases, and can only barely compete in combat. Chaos Dwarfs are strictly better than their non corrupted cousins.

Da Crusha
26-10-2012, 00:40
I disagree. I wouldn't say that one is better than another but you are making it seem like it would be a one sided killing. good dwarfs have scouts, strollaz's rune, Rune of slowness, miners, non dispelable magical charges. all of those things equate to a competitive movement phase. and the ability to stop a magic phase is powerful on it's own. your anti magic can stop our magic phase with ease, putting some 500 points down the drain.

as far as close combat goes you can have combat lords. we cannot. our lords has to use the magic phase to be worth it and you can shut that down easily. our castellans provide us with stubborn but once they are killed we no longer have stubborn unlike hammerers. and you have thanes that rival our castellans and cost 40 points cheaper. our troops cost so much more it is likely we will be taking front and flank charges further tipping close combats in your favor.

Personally I have never seen a dwarf general worry about killing a monster. usually they are just waiting for the game to begin to blast him to pieces.

I have participated in and seen 3 games so far with chaos dwarfs vs good dwarfs and we lost 2 of the matches due to cannons out shooting us.

GrandmasterWang
26-10-2012, 01:07
Chaos dwarfs have no infantry option as good as hammerers.

Maybe some mathhammer whiz can elaborate. Ig with hw/shield is 12 pts, same as a hammerer.

Ig strike first, hitting on 4, wounding on 4. Hammerer then gets a 6+ save

Hammerer hits back, hits on 3, wounds on 2. Ig gets 6+/6+ save.

I know who my money is on. Add a castellan to make them stubborn.... The hammerers can then take a thane with higher magic allowance (same stats & save) and an extra 3 hammerers. No way ig win that battle.

I would like to see the mathhamer with gw/ normal troops vs gw & standard ig. Most people seem to think Ig are overpriced and not good (i disagree).

Dwarfs have better artillery period. Think of the most lethal cd artillery lineup and the dwarfs can beat it for less points. Rerolling cannons & grudge throwers ftw. Going brutal dwarf funline with 3 cannons and 3 grudge throwers destroys chaos dwarfs. Besides the destroyer, what can make it up and remove them quickly? Centaurs are good but only 2 attacks. Chaos dwarfs have no flyers besides mounted monsters. Hobgobbos will bounce off.

Chaos Dwarfs can take general magic items, you are right in this is a big drawback for dwarfs.

Im curious to see what you think a waac cd list would include? I have never lost to chaos dwarfs with my dwarfs.... Although I guess I play chaos dwarfs so am familiar with the list.

I would like to add that dwarfs really dont fear the shrieker rockets that much. They are only strength 3 and dwarfs still get a save. Going sniper mode (vs the dwarf war machines) will wound on 3+ as opposed to the 2+ the much more accurate cannons will wound on.

With the various tricks (anvil, miners, challenge rune, gyrocopters) dwarfs can actually win the movement war. Chaos dwarfs have the advantage there (like all armies lol) but it isnt a write off. Dwarfs have a flying rare choice, chaos dwarfs dont have any flyers but character mounts.