PDA

View Full Version : How many points should a Vendetta be?



TheBearminator
08-10-2012, 16:00
I overheard this conversation from my hobby room the other day. It was my LAS-cannon armed heavy sentinels that had just found an unopened box with a Vendetta.

Sentinels: Hey, that's a fancy box man. What are you gonna be?

Vendetta: Well, I'm a an armour 12 LAS-cannon armed vehicle...

Sentinels: *taunting laughter* Is that all you've got man? So are we!

Vendetta: Well, actually, I've got armour 12 on three sides, and one more hull point than you. And I've got three of these LAS-cannons things. All of them twinlinked.

Sentinels: Wow, that's really something!

Vendetta: Yeah, it's kinda cool. And then I've got transport capacity for 12, and I come with these really neat special rules that allows me to deploy troops even when I zoom through the air like a fighter jet.

Sentinels: You do? Man, you must be pricy!

Vendetta: Nah. I'm about the same as you two guys.

Sentinels: Come on, that's just silly.

Vendetta: Nope. That's just what I am really. No, one more thing, as I can fly I also have this bonus thing that's makes me almost impossible to hit. And then of course I'm immune to close combat.

Sentinels: You said you were a fast choice? Man, we're out of the job...


So what do you say? How much would you pay for a Vendetta? :)

Nurgling Chieftain
08-10-2012, 17:06
In fairness, Armored Sentinels are generally overpriced, and 6th edition did them no favors.

That being said, a vedetta packs 2.25 lascannon hits per turn, or 1.5 lascannon HWT's worth. 1.5 lascannon HWT's should be the absolute floor price of the vendetta, IMO. And then it should add some points for its transport and flyer abilities. It ought to cost as much as a Heldrake, maybe more.

TheBearminator
08-10-2012, 17:26
I think it's disturbing really, what you get for the price. I bought it when it was new along with all the IG stuff I found best looking (like the sentinels). But comparing them is like like comparing firecrackers and atomic subs.

Lord Damocles
08-10-2012, 17:29
A Stormraven is 200 base with slightly more durability and better unit delivery, but less firepower base. Although you can take far more Vendettas.

I'd put it at 180-200 ish.

Murphey
08-10-2012, 18:05
Personally, at least in the current meta, I'd say 220. If there were more anti-flyer weapons on the ground and in codices, 200 would be far more to my liking. But at current, if you compare it to the Chaos dragon, it's pretty much better in the majority of roles, and can transport, and can do squadrons. For that, I'm going to have to say it should cost more than the dragon by a significant margin.

Kevlar
08-10-2012, 18:14
A Stormraven is 200 base with slightly more durability and better unit delivery, but less firepower base. Although you can take far more Vendettas.

I'd put it at 180-200 ish.

Vendettas only transport guardsmen though, not super space marines and their dreadnoughts, so it should get a small discount. 170-180 sounds about right.

13713
08-10-2012, 18:17
I have to agree with the above poster, 180. Honestly we are going to see less Vendettas as more armies go with AA and flyers later on in this edition.

TheBearminator
08-10-2012, 18:18
Vendettas only transport guardsmen though, not super space marines and their dreadnoughts, so it should get a small discount. 170-180 sounds about right.

Good point. And flyers have their issues as transports. As I haven't played it yet I can't appreciate the value of grav chute insertion.

Daedalus81
08-10-2012, 18:20
I have to agree with the above poster, 180. Honestly we are going to see less Vendettas as more armies go with AA and flyers later on in this edition.

Yea - Dark Angels might shut the door a bit more on flyer spam with a whirlwind that can take anti-air (if it pans out to be true).

Corvus Corone
08-10-2012, 18:28
At least 180pts.

They are shockingly underpriced.

Three TL/ Lascannons @ BS3 on an AV12, 3HP flier transport? 1-3 for a single choice to boot. Come on, Cruddace.

Lord Damocles
08-10-2012, 18:31
Come on, Cruddace.
To be fair - while still stupidly undercosted - prior to becomming fliers with 3 hull points and hover, the Vendetta wasn't as absurd as it is currently.

Xeen
08-10-2012, 18:40
A great thing is now we have a true 6th edition flyer to compare them to. The dragon is AV 12 3 HP, has all of the deamon/IWND upgrades, Vector Strike, and has the 4 St8 shots at BS3 for 170. The Vedentta has AV 12 3HP, Transport, 3 twinlinked St9 shots at BS 3, and can be taken in squads for 130. The armor is a wash, and I would much rather have 3 twin-linked St 9 shots (hell I would rather have 3 twinlinked Str8 Shots) So the Vedetta is better there. Is the transport better than the deamon/IWND and vector stike? Tough call, but I think this is a wash at best, maybe the deamon has a light edge. Based on this alone, the Vedentta should be at least 170 (same armor, better shots, maybe lesser on special abilities). I think really it should probable be like 180 or 190 as it can be taken in squads.

In general all of the flyers have to high an armor value, they should max out at 11.

Formerly Wu
08-10-2012, 18:40
Personally I'd drop the armor on all the Valkyrie-chassis fliers to 11/11/10 and point the Vendetta in the 150-160 range.

It's dangerous to price things "for the meta," though, since the meta is so fluid compared to the codex update schedule.

Vaktathi
08-10-2012, 18:42
Personally, and I may be mad here, but I actually found the Vendetta to be more abusive in 5th than in 6th. In 6th the Vendetta gains annoyance factor and survivability against most foes, but loses a lot of turn 1 deployment utility (hey, I scout up, turn 1 my troops disembark and move and melta somthing while the vendetta moved back and shoots) as, most importantly, no longer is there for the turn 1 Alpha Strike, meaning enemy transports and MC's are more likely to be alive longer as a result.

Formerly Wu
08-10-2012, 18:46
Personally, and I may be mad here, but I actually found the Vendetta to be more abusive in 5th than in 6th. In 6th the Vendetta gains annoyance factor and survivability against most foes, but loses a lot of turn 1 deployment utility (hey, I scout up, turn 1 my troops disembark and move and melta somthing while the vendetta moved back and shoots) as, most importantly, no longer is there for the turn 1 Alpha Strike, meaning enemy transports and MC's are more likely to be alive longer as a result.
Good point.

Not to mention troops being able to score from inside, or for its pre-hull points ability to largely ignore successive unlucky damage results.

13713
08-10-2012, 19:19
When more and more flyers come out for armies like the helldrake people will stop complaining about the Vendetta.

Poseidal
08-10-2012, 19:23
When more and more flyers come out for armies like the helldrake people will stop complaining about the Vendetta.

The Heldrake might be fairly costed. The problem with the Vendetta is that it does pretty much everything the Heldrake does and more for about 60% of the points.

ColShaw
08-10-2012, 19:24
I think 180 is about right for Vendettas, for the reasons noted by previous posters.

RanaldLoec
08-10-2012, 20:34
Vector Dancer is a major advantage, the biggest draw back to fliers is the single 90 degree turn and 18 inch min move it means lining up a decent secondary target the second turn is difficult.

Having played with vendetta's and vulture's I know which makes a massive impact yet costs more the vulture hands down.

Yes its not a codex unit but the extra manoeuvre ability is such a great asset to have.

The helldrake has vector dancer plus it was designed for 6th ed let's remember the guard codex is three years older and was written and priced for 5th edition.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-10-2012, 20:45
The Heldrake has Vector Dancer? I hadn't heard that. Crazy that chaos gets the first non-FW vector dancer. Should've been Dark Eldar! Or at least Eldar.

...Actually I don't think Vector Dancer should exist. You can basically just hop 18" back and forth staying more or less in place while dumping fire downrange. Doesn't act like a flyer at all.

Asher
08-10-2012, 20:48
The Heldrake has Vector Dancer? I hadn't heard that.

Of course you hadn't; becaus it has not Vector Dancer!

Valorel
08-10-2012, 21:02
I'd say 180-190 points would be fair.
As it is, it's just ridiculous...

druchii
08-10-2012, 21:04
The heldrake doesn't have vector dancer. I wonder what gave him that idea?

Also the vendetta was cheap by LAST edition's standards and so is certainly underpriced for this edition's. The vendetta should be at least 180pts.

d

Still Standing
08-10-2012, 21:12
They have Vector Strike. Easy mistake to make.

Xerkics
08-10-2012, 21:35
175-180 points i guess.

Eldoriath
08-10-2012, 23:38
I'm voting for 180p based on gut feeling and comparison to the heldrake. Sure, it doesn't have vectorstrike, but it does have 3 TL lascannons and can transport and drop a squad. As for anti-flyer duty it's about the most optimal unit there is. Heavy hitting power, can opt for skyfire and has good armor. What more can you ask for?

At 180p it's still a good unit, but not a no-brainer or spam option as it is now. When now taking 3 without a second thought you would perhaps instead stay at 2 which is about the same total points.

Khornies & milk
09-10-2012, 00:21
I'd go for 180 pts as well, but mainly for the reason that it's always been undercosted, not because it's excessively spammed or ultra effective.
I know dozens of IG players and only 2 or 3 have Air Cav lists with 6 Vendettas (well more likely 4 Vendettas and 2 valkyries), and the majority of us only have 2 or 3 Vendettas, so hardly spammed at all really.

They are effective, especially in 6th Ed, but in 5th ed Air-Cav lists were rather poor imo because once everyone had played them a couple of times people simply started targetting them relentlessly and they were blown from the sky by Turn 3 in 90% of games, as were the weak Vet Squads inside. I've read that many IG players say that they were good for last turn Objective-taking. I call BS on that unless their opponent had no clue on how to deal with them, or played with an outdated Codex so had no way of dealing with them, but that's GW's fault not IG's fault for been slow at updating said outdated armies.

With 6th ed I haven't seen any increase in IG Air-Cav lists, so still only 2 or 3 Flyers taken, and I think that once more armies get Flakk Missiles this number will likely fall or stay the same.

Necron Flyer lists are a whole other story though.:rolleyes:

Voss
09-10-2012, 00:26
Personally I'd drop the armor on all the Valkyrie-chassis fliers to 11/11/10 and point the Vendetta in the 150-160 range.

It's dangerous to price things "for the meta," though, since the meta is so fluid compared to the codex update schedule.

Agreed. The 6th ed FAQ should have done more than 'it is a flyer now.' 11/11/10 and dropping extra armour should have been a given with the way other flyers are shaping up, even if they didn't want to directly address point costs in the FAQs. As it stands it is an absurdly effective interceptor (probably one of the best in the game), that can switch handily to anti-armor, anti-transport and anti-terminator roles without blinking.

Formerly Wu
09-10-2012, 00:34
Agreed. The 6th ed FAQ should have done more than 'it is a flyer now.' 11/11/10 and dropping extra armour should have been a given with the way other flyers are shaping up, even if they didn't want to directly address point costs in the FAQs. As it stands it is an absurdly effective interceptor (probably one of the best in the game), that can switch handily to anti-armor, anti-transport and anti-terminator roles without blinking.
I think extra armour is fine, since it prevents the slightly "huh?" situation of a hovering gunship getting stopped dead in its tracks. EA is a pretty marginal benefit nowadays anyway.

The interceptor/dual role issue is another problem, but it's a problem with the rules implementation of flyers in general and not the Vendetta specifically.

ehlijen
09-10-2012, 01:13
The basic loadout of the Vendetta should be a TL lascannon in the nose and 2 hellstrike missiles for the cost it has now. Armour should be 11/11/10. The transport capacity should go down to 10 because of the extra cannon in the nose.

The missiles should be swappable for two TL lascannon at +50 points. The hellfury missiles should be a free or cheap swap for the Valkyrie's Hellstrikes, I never got why the AT flyer got the best anti horde missiles.

Aluinn
09-10-2012, 01:47
I think 180 is about right for Vendettas, for the reasons noted by previous posters.

Yeah that's what I came up with roughly (that it needs to be ~60 more points than it currently is) when comparing the costs of twin-linked lascannons on other vehicles, accounting for BS3, armor value, HP, being a flier, and having transport capacity. Of course anyone who takes the stance that you can't balance units cross-codex at all will find this meaningless, but I don't subscribe to that really and I think that the rules for allies make it an even weaker case. It does what it does and things should be priced, though not in a vacuum, on what they can be expected to accomplish in a game against a variety of opponents.

I'll agree with others though that the main problem with it in 6th has shifted from the fact that it's a huge threat to vehicles to the fact that it's ridiculously hard to kill and is really good at shooting down other fliers. Its horrifically underpriced weapons aren't useless by a long shot, but they've lost some value due to meta shifts (in some areas; I hear of odd local metas where everyone still seems to be playing mech). It is now OP more for its obscene reliability (i.e. the very high chance that it will survive a full game and thus be shooting things every turn that it's on the board, even considering that it has to begin in reserve) than for its front-load damage output potential. Having said that, its damage output is still stupid for the cost compared to vaguely similar platforms like the Predator Annihilator with lascannon sponsons.

So, yeah, long story short, ~175-200 points, but I'd rather see it nerfed down to AV11 and/or 2 HP, and cost something less than that, personally.

MajorWesJanson
09-10-2012, 03:02
I would give it the missiles base, make the TL Las cannons a +30 point swap for the missiles (so 160 total) and give the Valk and Vendetta a "gunship" rule that they do not have skyfire.

Athlan na Dyr
09-10-2012, 03:08
I think all flyers (except dedicated interceptors) should have a similar rule MajorWesJanson.
EDIT: What ehlijen says below is a better solution than mine.

as it is currently, 170-180 points

ehlijen
09-10-2012, 03:21
Or rather, no flyer should have the skyfire rule; it should remain a weapon specific rule, given to those weapons a flyer is meant to use on other flyers.

TheBearminator
09-10-2012, 06:36
To be honest. I don't think anything that mobile and that hard to kill should be allowed to have that much firepower AND transport capacity. As the LAS-cannons aren't even on the sprue, maybe when it's time for a codex update, those LAS-cannons should be un-twinlinked? Not that it will happen though. Just an idea. :)

Ruination Drinker
09-10-2012, 08:22
The thing is a flying Godhammer pattern Land Raider and should be priced as such. Fine it isn't AV14 all around but it might as well be with flyer rules. Oh, it's actually better than a standard LR because it gets one extra TL Las shot...neat.

TL Las cannons in marine codex' usually run about +35 points per, so that's 105 point on the LC's right there. Add Flyer, and AV12, transport capacity, EA (a +10 point upgrade for most codex'), 3 HP, and hover (which I believe should be costed) and you'll be around the 240 point range. Oh, lets not forget squadronable which also should have a cost associated with it.

As it's costed right now, the Vendetta makes a mockery of the game. Take for example the Dakkajet. In comparison the Dakkajet is an over-costed PoS! Fully outfitted, a Dakkajet is ~120 points (can't remember) for an AV10 Flyer that can put out 9 S6 shots. That's pretty laughable compared to what you can get for +25 more in an IG army.

Poseidal
09-10-2012, 09:11
The basic loadout of the Vendetta should be a TL lascannon in the nose and 2 hellstrike missiles for the cost it has now. Armour should be 11/11/10. The transport capacity should go down to 10 because of the extra cannon in the nose.

The missiles should be swappable for two TL lascannon at +50 points. The hellfury missiles should be a free or cheap swap for the Valkyrie's Hellstrikes, I never got why the AT flyer got the best anti horde missiles.
This is probably my favourite so far.

OgreBattle
09-10-2012, 09:56
So what do you say? How much would you pay for a Vendetta? :)

I think they are fine at their price IF YOU DO THE FOLLOWING:

-Reduce armor to 11/11/10
-Wing hardpoints cannot hold lascannons or other heavy weapons, only missiles.


It is now a more reasonable gunship.

Linoosthelost
09-10-2012, 10:26
Dakkajet is 135 fully kitted, but that includes Red paintjob witch I find kinda pointless, so IŽd say 130.... so yes by comparason , as a ork player I feel kind of [insert bad word here]... then again Dakkajet is awesomecool :D

tu33y
09-10-2012, 10:26
i am shaking my head at all of you. the basic 100pt Valkyrie is just a waste of a FOC slot... and 130 for the Vendetta is dead on. it really is. I cant believe there are so many injustices in this game and you have two pages saying this flyer is 50pts too cheap. It is in a very competitive slot, as Hellhounds of various flavours are very useful, and in the right hands rough riders can be a left field problem for your opponent. armoured sentinels are the most overcosted unit in the codex, along with all the "weird".
Priests, Ogryns, Commissars, penal troops... all should be right there in the mix of IG, and instead we all use veterans with meltas/plasma because they are far too expensive. 130 is dead on, and you are mad if you think in a game "meta" like this is it a problem to have it at that.

probably

Archibald_TK
09-10-2012, 13:59
I cant believe there are so many injustices in this game
I know, us the poor citizen of 40K are suffering so much under that inhuman system. :( But don't worry I have faith that one day a man will rise against the many injustices of the game in the form of a masked vigilante and protect us against the oppression!

... no, just kidding, I don't care for a vigilante as I play Necrons and wear a monocle! :D Now if you'll excuse me I have a few Nightscythes to paint with the fresh tears of kittens.

PS-
- On a more serious note, I'm 100% with those who believe the Valk/Ven shall see their armour reduced to 11/11/10. I firmly believe there are 2 main issues currently with the flyers system, the spam of large amount of cheap flyers (Nightscythes) that overload AA defenses, and AV12 that neuters a lot of the AA weapons as they tend to be limited in S. AV12 shall be limited to the heaviest and costliest flyers.
- I also like a lot the idea that the slowest flyers, or the ones lacking the maneuvering capabilities of jet, shall lose the Skyfire rules on weapons that are not mounted on turrets.
- Finally, Lascannons tend to eat up space for their generators on other vehicles, I see no reason for the Vendetta to be an exception. Its transport capabilities shall be either reduced or removed entirely.

In the end, instead of increasing the price of a Vendetta, I feel it's more interesting to reduce the bang you get for your bucks.

tu33y
09-10-2012, 14:45
.
- Finally, Lascannons tend to eat up space for their generators on other vehicles, I see no reason for the Vendetta to be an exception. Its transport capabilities shall be either reduced or removed entirely.

.

actually- i buy in to that. reducing capacity WOULD make sense. if you knocked it down to 8 or 6 (is it 12 at the moment?) would mean you could only put command squads in. that makes sense compared to say the Razorback etc.

and yes... maybe "injustices" was a slightly over-egged term! :-) MAYBE.

Wyrmnax
09-10-2012, 14:51
To be fair - while still stupidly undercosted - prior to becomming fliers with 3 hull points and hover, the Vendetta wasn't as absurd as it is currently.

This.

Vendetta was good but not absurd before being made a flyer.

Id think something like 180 points would be good. I would still be willing to pay for it, but not automatically include them on any guard list.

Radium
09-10-2012, 17:11
Or rather, no flyer should have the skyfire rule; it should remain a weapon specific rule, given to those weapons a flyer is meant to use on other flyers.

This. Just this. Would make AA warfare a lot more interesting, and it would stop the equivalent of Apache Gunships being the best anti-jet units out there. That just makes no sense at all. Dedicated jets (Razorwing, Nightwing, Lightning etc) should be the ones that take out flyers left and right. Vendettas/Voidravens/Valkyries etc should be nuking ground forces.

Formerly Wu
09-10-2012, 18:21
This. Just this. Would make AA warfare a lot more interesting, and it would stop the equivalent of Apache Gunships being the best anti-jet units out there. That just makes no sense at all. Dedicated jets (Razorwing, Nightwing, Lightning etc) should be the ones that take out flyers left and right. Vendettas/Voidravens/Valkyries etc should be nuking ground forces.
As long as both players agree, this doesn't even need a house rule. Flyers can always opt not to utilize Skyfire.

It would be nice if it was codified, however.

unknown_lifeform
09-10-2012, 20:14
In the end, instead of increasing the price of a Vendetta, I feel it's more interesting to reduce the bang you get for your bucks.

This. As Archibald and the OP suggest the Vendetta is simply too much in one place - some of the best long ranged AT in the imperial guard list, resilient, fast, transport, aircraft hunter... It simply shouldn't exist in its current form.

I'd be in favour of an armour reduction (11/10/10? but keep 3hp), removal or severe restriction of its transport capacity and removal of the ability to skyfire. And it says a lot that I'd still happily pay the current cost for that... Once it has a defined role (tank hunting gunship) they become less attractive to spam as they no longer do everything.

Vaktathi
11-10-2012, 07:10
GW really did bork the implementation of Flyers, they streamlined them from FW's old rules, but took away everything that differentiated fighters/interceptors made to engage other aircraft and just gave it to everything. While I'm still of the opinion that the Vendetta was actually of greater use last edition for various reasons, it shouldn't be a capable anti-aircraft platform, it should be a tank hunter. That said, the Vendetta isn't the only flyer with that issue, just the most prominent (practically none of the flyers we've currently got outsize the razorwing and *maybe* heldrake and Dakkajet should be good anti-aircraft platforms).

Shamana
11-10-2012, 09:19
i am shaking my head at all of you. the basic 100pt Valkyrie is just a waste of a FOC slot

I think you are joking... aren't you? An AV 12 fast skimmer with a slew of special rules, that can now work as a flier as well, has transport capacity, at 100 points, with affordable upgrades for more AI firepower, and you call that a waste of a slot? Hey, remind me what armies have AV 12 fliers/skimmers with 9 S5 and 6 shots (valkyrie with HB sponsors) for just over 100 points. Oh yeah, and they are transports, too.

Just in case you aren't trolling:

Let me see, what loosely similar units can you find in other codices to the vendetta:
SM/CSM predator: 3 lascannons, one of them TL; average of 2.(2) LC hits (chance to hit: 2x 2/3 + 8/9), compared to 2.25 (3x 0.75) for the vendetta. Slower, HS instead of FA, generally more expensive. Cannoy skim or fly, most aren't even fast; not a tranport, cannot be taken in squadrons (much better in 6e than 5e), front AV 1 point higher, side 1 point lower.
Eldar Falcon: (with brightlance to emulate a 3rd "lascannon" shot): average of 1.5 S8 hits (2 if corsair) one with the lance rule (worse against AV 10-12, better against AV 14, shorter range). HS instead of FA, more expensive, cannot fly, cannot be taken in squadrons, lower transport capacity, same armor.
DE Ravager (3 lances): Average of 2 S8 AP 2 lance hits, lower range. HS instead of FA. Cheaper without upgrades, but not a tranport, cannot be taken in squadrons, lower armor & open-topped.

Overall, no similar unit before or since is nearly as efficient as the vendetta in firepower and durability alone - nevermind the transport capacity and the various deploment/movement tricks.

Hendarion
11-10-2012, 09:40
Take a serpent. Remove the powerfield. Remove the Eldar-points-bonus. Add rear armour 12. Add additional las-cannons. Add additional transport capacity. Make it a flyer including skyfire. 180 points.

RanaldLoec
11-10-2012, 14:19
How many points should a night scythe be?

Lord Damocles
11-10-2012, 14:22
The Night Scythe isn't too bad so long as it isn't spammed (and I'm not entirely convinced that just spamming Scythes is all that great an idea anyway).

It would have helped if the minimum unit size of Warriors wasn't reduced though.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-10-2012, 14:24
How many points should a night scythe be?

My gut instinct is 125pts. Just seems right for what it does.

TheBearminator
11-10-2012, 14:25
You hijacked my thread! :D

I can't tell since I haven't even read the rules for the night scythe. Would perhaps be even more interesting to hear if the nigh scythe (or any other flyer) should cost more or less than the Vendetta should do. :)

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
11-10-2012, 14:42
I use 1 in my IA8 Elysian drop troop list. We house ruled valkyries and vendettas to armour 11/11/10 and removed their ability to skyfire. Much better that way. If you also remove the ability to squadron them like in the IA8 list, it is much less abusive and not as under costed.

I never use it to transport troops, but a reduction in capacity to 6 sounds good. That limits it to command squads and small storm trooper squads.

II Orar II
11-10-2012, 15:48
I use 1 in my IA8 Elysian drop troop list. We house ruled valkyries and vendettas to armour 11/11/10 and removed their ability to skyfire. Much better that way. If you also remove the ability to squadron them like in the IA8 list, it is much less abusive and not as under costed.

I never use it to transport troops, but a reduction in capacity to 6 sounds good. That limits it to command squads and small storm trooper squads.

To be fair 12 is similar to a Blackhawk capacity, and I think everyone can agree they love the concept of an airborne army, Apocalypse now style. It's a shame if they were given a fair point increase then this kind of army would barely be playable, in a 1500 point army you would then only be able to play 3-4 of them realistically if they were 200 points or there abouts like many people here are suggesting. Maybe reducing them to AV 11 would and a 10 point increase would make them less ridiculous while keeping them competitive, not sure I can honestly say they wouldn't still be too overpowered though.

Kevlar
11-10-2012, 15:55
To be fair 12 is similar to a Blackhawk capacity, and I think everyone can agree they love the concept of an airborne army, Apocalypse now style. It's a shame if they were given a fair point increase then this kind of army would barely be playable, in a 1500 point army you would then only be able to play 3-4 of them realistically if they were 200 points or there abouts like many people here are suggesting. Maybe reducing them to AV 11 would and a 10 point increase would make them less ridiculous while keeping them competitive, not sure I can honestly say they wouldn't still be too overpowered though.

The problem is it has the carrying capacity of a blackhawk, but the armament of a main battle tank for no points increase.

WildWeasel
11-10-2012, 16:15
This.

Vendetta was good but not absurd before being made a flyer.

Id think something like 180 points would be good. I would still be willing to pay for it, but not automatically include them on any guard list.

It was absurd the moment the current IG codex dropped. 130 points for three TL-LC on an immobile AV12 box would be a good deal. The Vendetta then piles all sorts of craziness on top. 6E then makes it even better.

And the Valkyrie is very under costed as well. You don't see much because IG doesn't hurt for mass AI fire, so the cheap effective AT of the Vendetta just out shadows it.

BaloOrk
11-10-2012, 17:30
Vendetta spam was horrifying in 5th.

Either keep it at 130 and drop squadron option, or increase points to 170/180.

ilikebmxbikes
11-10-2012, 18:19
Armor and stats should stay as they are but as many have noted it should be priced at 170-180.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2012, 18:59
The Heldrake has Vector Dancer? I hadn't heard that. Crazy that chaos gets the first non-FW vector dancer. Should've been Dark Eldar! Or at least Eldar.
It should have vector dancer! It's a freaking dragon. It looks like it should be able to make manoeuvers mid-flight like a bird or bat not like a plane.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with some posters that the Vendetta's problems really lie in the design (or lack thereof) of the vehicle not just the underpriced points tag.

This has annoyed me since IG came out. Look at Space Marine vehicles, the capacitors to power a twin-linked lascannon are pretty bulky. The turret arrangement on a razorback sacrifices 4 "marines-worth" of transport capacity. (Henceforth abbreviated as MW). A Land Raider without the two godhammer twin lascannons sponsons gains an additional 5-6 MW of capacity. The Terminus Ultra sacrifices a further 10 MW capacity for another 4 lascannon. Roughly speaking, we're looking at about 1.5MW of capacity per lascannon.

Yet the Vendetta carries more anti-tank capacity than a Land Raider (at least 7.5 MW of capacity) without sacrificing transport capability and it flies! It has more anti-aircraft and anti-tank punch than any true fighter craft of the Navy. It carries more armour than the ground APCs like rhinos and chimera. The Vendetta looks like they spent time designing the Valkyrie and then threw in the option for a lascannon variant at the last moment in a fit of MOAR OPTIONS for the IG.

The Vendetta just shouldn't exist and if it does it certainly shouldn't have a transport capacity!

Aluinn
11-10-2012, 19:35
As a case for not nerfing it (much) but increasing the points cost substantially, we should also probably account for the fact that it's an extremely expensive model. The games designer in me says it should be nerfed (AV reduction, transport capacity reduction, HP reduction; take your picks) and end up at somewhere in the region of 150 points, but the player in me says it costs a lot of money to the point where, if it's fairly cheap in points (and this applies to the Valkyrie as well, which may even deserve some sort of minor buff and minor points increase, though I can't think of specifics), the air-cav-themed army becomes so expensive to build that it isn't a viable option, financially, to a lot of players. I know a lot of us here have secure careers that pay reasonably well, but remember that a lot of gamers are college students and/or recent graduates who are unemployed, from lower-middle class families and not receiving tons of money or the free use of a credit card from Daddy. One way to make the game more accessible to more players (and thus selling more models, from GW corporate perspective, and expanding the community, from gamer perspective), while still achieving a good profit margin per unit, is to sell expensive kits but make the points costs for those models pretty high such that, to carry on this example, an IG air cav army may have 3-4 of these vehicles, but they'd still be hard to kill and reliable at moving around troops throughout the course of a game. GW already prices (in currency) proportionally to points costs in a lot of cases and it really isn't a bad idea. The Vendetta is pretty enormous violation of that, whereas most other flyers are far more in line with the pricing/points ratios of the ranges in general (e.g. the Ork flyer is a cheaper kit with many more options).

TheBearminator
12-10-2012, 15:13
Very good point. Not many years ago I would ALWAYS make that points/price calculation. I still do, even though I'm now work full time and play an expensive forgeworld army. I really think it's sad what happened to this hobby. Would probably not have picked it up if it had been this expensive when I started at the age of 16.

Hendarion
12-10-2012, 16:08
Points and $-price in my eyes has no relation. You might want some "oomph" for your hard earned money, but there are enough point-cheap units out there that cost vast amounts of money. Money should *never* be the key to get point-cheap and unbalanced units. Paying more real money to get unbalanced stuff in order to win is just not acceptable. Neither for those who do that, nor for GW offering such stuff. If a unit costs many $, you might want it to also have a large point-value in the game and being powerful, but it shouldn't be out of order point-cheap AND powerful.
That's like pay-2-win. :wtf:

Depulsor
12-10-2012, 16:58
As it is, it should be around 200 points.
But as the whole imp-army codex is overpowered, it maybe should be around 175. I mean, a fair unit in an unfair codex doesnt make any sense. :angel:


...The Vendetta just shouldn't exist and if it does it certainly shouldn't have a transport capacity!

Thats 100% true. Somehow cruddace just didnt put any thought in it, when he designed that unit.

RanaldLoec
12-10-2012, 17:07
As it is, it should be around 200 points.
But as the whole imp-army codex is overpowered, it maybe should be around 175. I mean, a fair unit in an unfair codex doesnt make any sense. :angel:



Thats 100% true. Somehow cruddace just didnt put any thought in it, when he designed that unit.

Yes as Cruddance is renowned for writing the most over powered codexs going.

Like grey knights, necrons etc etc.

Erwos
12-10-2012, 17:40
This has annoyed me since IG came out. Look at Space Marine vehicles, the capacitors to power a twin-linked lascannon are pretty bulky. The turret arrangement on a razorback sacrifices 4 "marines-worth" of transport capacity. (Henceforth abbreviated as MW). A Land Raider without the two godhammer twin lascannons sponsons gains an additional 5-6 MW of capacity. The Terminus Ultra sacrifices a further 10 MW capacity for another 4 lascannon. Roughly speaking, we're looking at about 1.5MW of capacity per lascannon.

Yet the Vendetta carries more anti-tank capacity than a Land Raider (at least 7.5 MW of capacity) without sacrificing transport capability and it flies! It has more anti-aircraft and anti-tank punch than any true fighter craft of the Navy. It carries more armour than the ground APCs like rhinos and chimera. The Vendetta looks like they spent time designing the Valkyrie and then threw in the option for a lascannon variant at the last moment in a fit of MOAR OPTIONS for the IG.

The Vendetta just shouldn't exist and if it does it certainly shouldn't have a transport capacity!
I hate Land Raider comparisons. Land Raiders are hugely overcosted, and have been for a long time.

But your fluff rant does provide a very good solution to the Vendetta problem. Here's my take on how to fix the Vendetta without invalidating everyone's models:
1. Dump the transport capacity and scouts.
2. Reduce the lascannons to S7 AP3 when in flyer mode, to compensate for the increased power draw of flying vs hovering.
3. No squadrons.
4. Bump up to 150 points.

This makes the Vendetta less amazing as a flyer killer, and gives it a risk/reward choice for using those lascannons at full power. It also removes the possibility of spamming it, which has certain good meta effects.

(Incidentally, I'd give scouts to Hellhounds and variants instead, which might even make them worth their points cost.)

TheBearminator
12-10-2012, 17:59
Points and $-price in my eyes has no relation. You might want some "oomph" for your hard earned money, but there are enough point-cheap units out there that cost vast amounts of money. Money should *never* be the key to get point-cheap and unbalanced units. Paying more real money to get unbalanced stuff in order to win is just not acceptable. Neither for those who do that, nor for GW offering such stuff. If a unit costs many $, you might want it to also have a large point-value in the game and being powerful, but it shouldn't be out of order point-cheap AND powerful.
That's like pay-2-win. :wtf:

That's not what I meant. Of course a thick wallet should never let you field a better army. But when I started playing as a teenager I always calculated how many points I got for my bucks. In the end the price I pay for my army is that's the price I pay for my hobby. Today that's not my problem. My problem is I don't paint fast enough to get troops on the table. But I feel sorry for the younger players who don't have the financial resources.

Archibald_TK
13-10-2012, 21:18
Yes as Cruddance is renowned for writing the most over powered codexs going.

Like grey knights, necrons etc etc.
The two most powerful Codexes before the release of the GK were IG and SW, and more than one player would point IG as the most OP of the two due to how they could abuse alliances with the Inquisition. (One of the first abuse that appeared was people Fielding squads of GK Terminators in Vendettas, how funny!).
Are we supposed to ignore that period and also pretend that Necrons in 5th were as powerful than in 6th just for the sake of blaming Mat Ward?

rcal13
05-11-2012, 12:15
As one of the air cav players I would reather have them as fast skimmer then flyers. Being a flayer hurts the transpot ablities a lot. They beco.me drop off ships that may kill the unit and unless you hover you can't pick up. And they may not come in till turn 4. 5th they where way worse and people dint scream as much as they are now. Yes I think they should be in the 150 range and honestly I tend to put them in to hover as I need them on the borad. I really think flyer are not as good as some of you think they are. But then I use missle luanchers and greande luncher in platoons cause I like them. So yes they are alittle under coasted but as more things get skyfire and interceptor they will be back to being a weak ig unit

Nym
05-11-2012, 12:33
I agree with some posters, it should lose its transport capacity at least to get all these TL-Lascannons. But as it is now, it should cost 170-180.

Weapon systems apart, an Ork Dakkajet costs the same but is only AV10, cannot be taken in squadrons, doesn't get a hover mode, doesn't have any transport capacity... People at GW should *really* hire someone to take care of the rules because clearly, "writers" don't know anything about how to price a unit.

Minsc
05-11-2012, 12:56
175 pts minimum, and remove the squadron rules.
It should probably also have to sacrifice some of it's lasercannons to maintain it's transportcapacity.

TheBearminator
05-11-2012, 13:01
175 pts minimum, and remove the squadron rules.
It should probably also have to sacrifice some of it's lasercannons to maintain it's transportcapacity.

Well, they do have that possibility when the codex gets an update, since the parts aren't yet included in the box. :)

damiengore
05-11-2012, 13:01
Since its a pussy guard vehicle with AV 10 on the rear and no assault capacity it should be 110pts. I mean its not like its AV 12 all around, immune to melta, packs 4 S8 ord missiles, TL multimelta and TL las cannon for free, can carry terminators and a dreadnought that can assault out of it. Now that would be ridiculous regardless off the cost!

Okay mere 100pts and a free upgrade to ceremite armour at the cost of extra armour!

BigHammer
05-11-2012, 13:32
Personally, if they keep all its rules intact right now, I'd say 250 points each would be a good starting point.

The logic: what has more than one set of twin linked lascannons anywhere else? A Land Raider. The Vendetta replaces the LR's heavy bolters with another TL LC, though, so they're slightly better for firepower (though down on BS, they can get the HB's as well as the LC's...)
Land Raiders can fire one more weapon than most other vehicles whilst on the move. Vendettas can fire even more than that.
LR's have transport cap of 12. So do vendettas.
LR's have AV14 all round, but are huge, and assaultable. Vendettas have hard-to-hit, and can stay in zoom-mode without compromising their functionality in the slightest, as well as AV12 front and centre.
LR's are assault vehicles with 4 hull points. Vendettas can drop troops from a zoom move and come in squadrons.
BA LR's can deep strike. All Vendettas can deep strike.

So in terms of firepower, the Vendetta wins.
In terms of survivability, they both take specialist weaponry to take down effectively (melta and lance for the LR, str7+ skyfire for the Vendetta).
In terms of transport capacity and versatility, they're evenly matched, though the LR is transporting significantly more dangerous troops.
In terms of maneuverability, the Vendetta wins hands-down, regardless of which mode it's moving in; The LR balances this maneuverability disadvantage by being able to deploy on the table and stay there for its entire lifespan.

So yeah, 250 points sounds about right to me. Or maybe Land Raiders need their cost brought down to the Vendetta's level? I know a fair few Blood Angels players that would be delighted by that news...

Haravikk
05-11-2012, 13:46
For one thing the Vendetta shouldn't have Transport capacity at all; Lascannons are meant to have huge power requirements so with three lots it should barely have room for the pilots unless it's only been designed to fire a couple of shots then run back to the nearest charging station. Even before it became a Flyer it was over-priced, it should be around the 200 mark easily, though really it needs less armour and no Transport capacity, and maybe something to reduce its effectiveness against other flyers since. I mean, even the Storm Talon Gunship can only have one Twin-Linked Lascannon, and it has to pay extra for those. Vendettas also shouldn't be in squadrons (half of the stuff in the Imperial Codex shouldn't, I really hate that Codex).



In terms of survivability, they both take specialist weaponry to take down effectively (melta and lance for the LR, str7+ skyfire for the Vendetta).
All sound points above, except that the specialist weaponry against a Land Raider can at least be used against any other ground vehicle as well, and also tough infantry if you have no other targets. So Skyfire is far more specialist, especially any with Strength 8 or higher.

Jonny Draigo
05-11-2012, 15:24
As it is now, I would say around 200pts, something like a 220 would be adequate. It is generally a flying Land raider, just with more weapons, better maneuverability, squadron rule, scout rule and is in uncontested fast attack slot, fulfilling the role of tank hunter, interceptor, horde infantry killer, reliable transport and scout, all in one

carldooley
05-11-2012, 15:53
Leave the points and rules where they are, reduce the AV on all the facings to 10 (of ALL flyers, with no way to increase it - I'm looking at you QS), and bring back the PM=AA mount rules.

Hawkkf
05-11-2012, 15:53
A few things I have noticed is that there are very little complaints about the valkyrie. The main problem is the massive firepower without losing anything or going up in points. GW tried to make a heavy support variant of the valkyrie without stepping on the toes of the vulture and went overboard. My opinion is that the vendetta needs to be scrapped. Parts for it arent in the box so its no bid deal. They should instead make a dedicated air-to-air fighter (as if forgeworld doesn't have enough available). Also, the scout ability should be replaced with an upgrade option that allows scouting (long range auspex or something?). If they really want to keep the vendetta in the codex they can make an upgrade kit. Something along the lines of 'any valkyie can be upgraded to a vendetta replacing all of its weapons and tranpsort capacity for 3 twin linked lascannons for 75 points'. They could even have other variants if they dont get carried away. In any case a valkyrie varient with heavy weapons should lose its transport capacity, be a point increase, and still be less cool than a vulture.

duffybear1988
05-11-2012, 20:48
185 points.

Shamana
05-11-2012, 21:45
I imagine it would depend on just what rules and availability it has in the next codex, but I'd be surprised if it's under 180 if it is anything like its current incarnation.

Chem-Dog
05-11-2012, 23:23
A Stormraven is 200 base with slightly more durability and better unit delivery, but less firepower base. Although you can take far more Vendettas.

Bloodstrikes, TL Lascannon + TL Multimelta and Hurricane Bolters plus PotMS, the SR outstrips a Vendetta every time. That's even before considering the kind of units they are capable of transporting.


The thing is a flying Godhammer pattern Land Raider and should be priced as such. Fine it isn't AV14 all around but it might as well be with flyer rules. Oh, it's actually better than a standard LR because it gets one extra TL Las shot...neat.

Sure, if you want to ignore the yawning gulf between Bs4 and Bs3.


Lascannons tend to eat up space for their generators on other vehicles, I see no reason for the Vendetta to be an exception. Its transport capabilities shall be either reduced or removed entirely.

This is what I've been saying about the 'detta from day 1. triple lascannons should take up enough space to drop the thing to a 6 man squad (leaving it as a officers only transport) or take up all the space in the hul. Though I would then see it placed in the HS section or as an upgrade for one Valk per squadron.


GW really did bork the implementation of Flyers, they streamlined them from FW's old rules, but took away everything that differentiated fighters/interceptors made to engage other aircraft and just gave it to everything. While I'm still of the opinion that the Vendetta was actually of greater use last edition for various reasons,

I'm not sure if it's borked or just a best fit for what they hope to be able to achieve in this edition. Giving every faction some answer to the various types of flyer that can exist would represent a fairly significant stream of new miniatures in a field where the one-kit-serves-all formula of yesteryear isn't going to cut it. So instead of giving each faction one or the other, they've made them fairly univeral this time round and, in 5 years or so, the next 40K will give us more aircraft choices for everybody and allow you to differentiate between bombers, ground attack craft, interceptors and drop-ships (and so on).


I
1. Dump the transport capacity and scouts.
2. Reduce the lascannons to S7 AP3 when in flyer mode, to compensate for the increased power draw of flying vs hovering.
3. No squadrons.
4. Bump up to 150 points.

This makes the Vendetta less amazing as a flyer killer...

It makes the vendetta bloody pointless to take, if I'm being honest.
Reduce/dump the transport capacity, fine. It stands to reason in the fluff and in balancing the thing in game. The second it stops being able to cart triple-melta Veteran squads places it becomes less attractive.

Scouts, I'm ambivalent about to be honest. too many units seem to get it for no good reason (Baal) and it's handed out willy nilly as a commander perk either by named guys (CREEEEEEEEEEED!) or by some other means.

Reduce the Lascannons for flying? Nonsense, the thing carries banks of power cells dedicated to the weapons, that's why you're loosing the transport capacity.

No squadrons. Kinda meh, shooting squadrons can drop a whole flight if your Dice-fu is strong.

Points hike. After robbing it of everything that makes it such a prime option in the IG 'Dex you're going to make it cost more? Sorry, alone I'd accept it, but with everything else you've done to neuter the thing, it's worthless to take, not a more challenging choice, worthless.


Leave the points and rules where they are, reduce the AV on all the facings to 10 (of ALL flyers, with no way to increase it - I'm looking at you QS), and bring back the PM=AA mount rules.

If any craft should be able to rely on better armour, it should be the ones designed to insert troops into a battle zone. This would be something that needs addressing at the core mechanics level though.


A few things I have noticed is that there are very little complaints about the valkyrie. The main problem is the massive firepower without losing anything or going up in points. GW tried to make a heavy support variant of the valkyrie without stepping on the toes of the vulture and went overboard. My opinion is that the vendetta needs to be scrapped. Parts for it arent in the box so its no bid deal. They should instead make a dedicated air-to-air fighter (as if forgeworld doesn't have enough available).

My thoughts on the subject entirely here. I do hope we'll see a Thunderbolt/LightningII/Avenger/new Citadel designed fighter or interceptor sat in the HS section of an IG codex at some point in the not too distant future and the 'Detta will be just a bad memory.

MagicHat
05-11-2012, 23:32
Sure, if you want to ignore the yawning gulf between Bs4 and Bs3.

BS4 twinlinked is 88.88%
BS3 twinlinked is 75 %

MajorWesJanson
06-11-2012, 02:16
150 points
Add "Gunship" rule: Fliers with the "Gunship" rule are dedicated ground support craft, and not optimised to aerial combat. Therefore, they can not choose to use the skyfire rule.

rcal13
06-11-2012, 03:17
This a good sultion. I know I just don't see valk, vendettas and vultures being used as anti air in fluff, and would have no problem with the pts of 150, I even can see the vendetta droping to a capcity of 6 for sws and cs. But at the same time I don't want to go back to when I was laughed at when I took gaurd to a tornament. I also think sentnills and rough riders shoud see a pts drop. If the flyers had compition for what they did and fa slots people would see less of them. Just a thought one unit by it self can't make a broken army.

Kevlar
06-11-2012, 03:51
Just a thought one unit by it self can't make a broken army.

Err, they sort of can if they are spammable.

That is the whole problem with vendettas, grey hunters, longfangs, purifiers, obliterators (to a little lesser extent)...

If stuff like this was limited to 0-1 choice per army list then yes one unit wouldn't be able to make a broken army. But when you can spam 6-9 of them they can in fact break an entire army list.

Prisoner24601
06-11-2012, 04:48
Err, they sort of can if they are spammable.

That is the whole problem with vendettas, grey hunters, longfangs, purifiers, obliterators (to a little lesser extent)...

If stuff like this was limited to 0-1 choice per army list then yes one unit wouldn't be able to make a broken army. But when you can spam 6-9 of them they can in fact break an entire army list.

and when 9 are 1170 pts.. and the cheapest troops and hq = 220..

lose 1-3 squadron. and make them 150/160pts

Donnie Darko
06-11-2012, 06:12
As has been mentioned the problem lies with the fact they wanted a gun ship introduced too but then went and re-used the valk hull/rules.

Having a vendetta load out on the vulture platform makes sense and would slot in to the HS list nicely at 130 or so without transport cap or scout nonsense. Also for anything that has hover mode it shouldn't be able to sky fire guns. Helo's and volt aircraft are not designed to effectively engage fast targets with their cannon type weapons.

This would bring them in line with the intent and cost model.

Guard could still play Air Cav without the one model to rule them all.

A simple price bump doesn't help anything. What they are overly good at they remain overly good at, and where they are balanced/ok they just get over costed. There's no middle ground for the vendetta, just like there's no middle ground for the vanquisher. People's main complaint is it does everything for the points cost, not that it does one thing well. Take away the AA and transport ability and it looks pretty good otherwise.

Also, the vendetta shouldn't get hard points upgrades without sacrificing transport capacity.

I would like to see:
Valk - 12 man transport w/ door guns, not the chin gun.
Valk w/ rocket pods or a punisher cannon - 6 man transport, may upgrade to door guns
Vendetta = Vulture (ie 4 hard points and chin gun), no transport

Nothing get's sky fire or scout.

For scout you can have a dedicated mini but guard doesn't seem to fit the scout craft model. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to kitbash a sentinel with a land speeder :P

MajorWesJanson
06-11-2012, 08:09
Wing mounted weapons should not affect the carrying capacity. And a Valk cannot take a punisher cannon.

If I was doing a bit more fine tuning of the Guard fliers, I'd do the following:
Add "Gunship" rule: Fliers with the "Gunship" rule are dedicated ground support craft, and not optimised to aerial combat. Therefore, they can not choose to use the skyfire rule.

Valkyrie- Add gunship rule. Replace scout with outflank, as that is effectively the same thing now for fliers. Change weapon options-
Base multilaser + 2 missiles (any combination):
Hellstrike- S8 AP3 Armorbane Oneshot
Hellfury- S5 AP4 Large Blast Ignores cover Oneshot
Skyfury- S7 AP4 Skyfire Ignores cover Oneshot

May replace Multilaser with Lascannon for +15 points, or TL Lascannon for +25 points
May replace both Missiles with Lascannon, Autocannon, or rocket pod for +15 points each, or with Assault Cannons or TL Lascannons for +25 points each.
Remove from FA, and make dedicated transport option for Company Command, Stormtroopers, and Veteran Squads.

Vendetta- remove entry.

Add thunderbolt in Heavy Support- 155 points, AV11/11/10, 3 HP. 2 TL Autocannons, 1 TL Lascannon. Can take up to 4 missiles (Hellstrike, Hellfury, Skyfury) in any combination for 10 points each.

Donnie Darko
06-11-2012, 14:15
I guess I wasn't very clear. I was suggesting removing the vendetta entirely and replacing it with the vulture in the codex as a heavy support option.

Given the model it would be hard to do from a modeling perspective so probably not worth the time but the reason I said punisher is there is no better mini gun in the game. It would be gun on one side ammo drum on the other but that assumes hull hard points to work for modeling reasons. Rocket pods would be my other option.

I like all your missile suggestions but find them to heavy for what is suppose to be a flying chimera. LCs or ACs on the hard points would be logical too but being able to take trip LCs defeats the need for a heavy support gunship.

It's a dedicated transport and should be kept that way FA slot or not.

I would also make it at 12/10/10 like the chimera and keep it cheap.

jt.glass
06-11-2012, 15:15
Would perhaps be even more interesting to hear if the nigh scythe (or any other flyer) should cost more or less than the Vendetta should do. :)(empasis mine).

Well, I'm pretty confident in saying the Manta should...


-------------

Anyway, I'd say 180-200 as written, or drop the capacity down a little and armour to 11/11/10 and keep it at the current price or a bit more. Oh, and since it is both shooty an fast, I'd make it take a HS and an FA slot either way.


glass.

Shnerg
06-11-2012, 15:27
Currently? I would think about 210.

Remove the transport capabilities, and I'd say about 180.

Knock off one twin-linked Lascannon and I'd say 145.

Blinder
06-11-2012, 16:04
Personally, I'd be quite happy to see 9+ vendettas on the field... sure it means the Russ is toast but after that I'm really not nearly as worried about them as I would be about a dakkajet... 9+ valks is what would scare me, but it seems that nobody really cares about them because they can't burn up flyers.

IMO, pick one-
Max 6 passengers, BS2 when using skyfire
LC's no longer linked
Can't skyfire
Can't transport

Yeah, it's currently under-pointed for what it does, but mainly because it's a good tank/MC-killer that can drop off a good tank/MC killing suicide squad and is one of the few true threats to flyers. Making it immensely overpriced (equivalent to a land raider? really? I didn't know guardsmen maybe shooting on turn 3 were as scary as marines likely punching your face in on turn 2) is just spiteful, it'd be far better to tone down it's capabilities so it isn't as good at as many things (be it by reducing a couple capabilities or removing one).

As far as the AV goes, that's a top-level problem. GW looks to like AV12 for "big" flyers though, personally if that's the case I'd prefer to see anything with AV > 11 take a big hit to maneuverability while zooming.

damiengore
06-11-2012, 17:06
Wait wait. Grey hunters are broken? Huh? No combat tactics no free heavy weapon, have to buy a character separately, max unit size 10. Until you've seen combat tactics used properly you have no idea what broken is. So they have counter attack and a ccw, so what this is 6th edition and assault is dead!
Never even thought for a second grey hunters could be considered broken! Crazy!

Chem-Dog
06-11-2012, 17:30
BS4 twinlinked is 88.88%
BS3 twinlinked is 75 %

As I said, a yawning chasm.

jt.glass
06-11-2012, 17:57
Never even thought for a second grey hunters could be considered broken! Crazy!Not broken, but clearly superior to vanilla or BA Tacticals. IMO, the problem is on the vanilla side of the equation.


glass.

Prisoner24601
06-11-2012, 19:15
As I said, a yawning chasm.

I'd have to agree with Chem here.. 13% can make or break a game.. I'd rather be ~90% accurate to 75%

Haravikk
06-11-2012, 21:00
Add "Gunship" rule: Fliers with the "Gunship" rule are dedicated ground support craft, and not optimised to aerial combat. Therefore, they can not choose to use the skyfire rule.
Something like that also makes sense on the basis that the twin linked lascannons seemingly have no dedicated power sources onboard, so putting a Vendetta in a dogfight would see it drop from the sky after too many shots fired :)

Darth Bobo
06-11-2012, 23:54
My solution. at the current points the Vendetta is armed with 3 TL Autocannons, for 35pts you get TL Lascannons but loose 50% of the transport capacity.

Don't mess with the armor value, IG vehicles are well armored while the troops are not, this is one of the hallmarks of the IG

xxRavenxx
06-11-2012, 23:59
A few things I have noticed is that there are very little complaints about the valkyrie.

I think the problem is that the vendetta is so good that noone ever sees Valks. If you hit the vendetta with a points correction, but didn't adjust the valk, it would start showing up everywhere, and then would indeed be complained about.

Prisoner24601
07-11-2012, 00:35
I think the problem is that the vendetta is so good that noone ever sees Valks. If you hit the vendetta with a points correction, but didn't adjust the valk, it would start showing up everywhere, and then would indeed be complained about.

i often see a valk more than a vend.. because 90pts saved is basically an extra valk for the price of 3 vend..

chuck in the fact that you can get 7 valks into 1k games

TheBearminator
07-11-2012, 07:45
I count 100 angry posts. ;)

About the valkyrie then. Is it more accurate? The price I mean.

Poseidal
07-11-2012, 09:18
I think the Vendetta outclasses the Valkyrie so much most players have never seen a Valkyrie in play.

Commotionpotion
07-11-2012, 09:50
In fairness to the codex author, the Vendetta looks very much like a last-minute addition to the codex, probably imposed by management fiat - I think this is probable, given that you can't build it straight out of the box of what was a 'flagship' kit for the codex. Contrast that with the reissued Leman Russ and Demolishers, where pretty much all the options were available. Unlike the logistics of creating the other 'artillery' vehicles, it wouldn't have been too much of a challenge to create a twin-linked lascannon wing pod.

The Vendetta's issues, aside from its points cost, is that it is simply 'better' than the Valkyrie by a considerable margin, for no apparent downside. Also, it's weapon options don't make any sense - have you ever seen one with Hellfury missiles, for example?

As of now, I'd say is probably worth about 180 points. But looking long term, I can seen the Valkyrie box having its sprues recut and its options changed - perhaps they'll do a WD rejig as they did with some of the Daemon units? I'd hope its a possibility.

To make the Valkyrie and Vendetta atttractive, they need to have their purposes redefined. My suggestions would be the following:

-Valkyrie - the 'dedicated transport' option. Keeps its cargo bay, basic Multilaser fixed weapon, but mounts Hellfuries instead of Hellstrike (for clearing LZs with anti-personnel firepower) - can replace these with Rocket Pods. Retains heavy bolter door-mount sponson upgrade. Retain squadron structure of 1-3 as this allows for an 'air-landing' platoon using a conventional IG platoon (minimum of 3 separate units).

-Vendetta - the 'dedicated gunship' option. No transport capacity, or capacity 6 maximum - enough to hold a strike team of Storm Troopers or similar troops. This machine is all about providing heavy support for flights of Valkyries. Basic nose-mounted fixed weapon is a twin-linked Lascannon. Wing mounts start as twin-linked Multilasers, but can be upgraded to twin-linked Lascannons for a hefty price increase (probably 40 or 50 points). The Vendetta then has extra wing hardpoints, which take Hellstrike Rockets but can also be upgraded to Rocket Pods. Retain option for door-mount heavy bolter sponsons. 1 model only per slot - this vision of the Vendetta is menat to make it almost the IG equivalent of a flying MC, since the IG don't have this type of unit (nor should they).

Basically, I see the Vendetta as the Hind-D to the Valkyrie's Black Hawk or Jolly Green Giant - it goes in first, shatters any armoured resistance in the LZ. The Valks then go in, mop up any remaining resistance and the debus their cargo.

This is a pipe-dream, but I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta issue deserves more thought than just tinkering with the points. Both units need a clear purpose - at the moment, they sort of have the same purpose, but one is just much better at it than the other.

TheBearminator
07-11-2012, 15:46
In fairness to the codex author, the Vendetta looks very much like a last-minute addition to the codex, probably imposed by management fiat - I think this is probable, given that you can't build it straight out of the box of what was a 'flagship' kit for the codex. Contrast that with the reissued Leman Russ and Demolishers, where pretty much all the options were available. Unlike the logistics of creating the other 'artillery' vehicles, it wouldn't have been too much of a challenge to create a twin-linked lascannon wing pod.

The Vendetta's issues, aside from its points cost, is that it is simply 'better' than the Valkyrie by a considerable margin, for no apparent downside. Also, it's weapon options don't make any sense - have you ever seen one with Hellfury missiles, for example?

As of now, I'd say is probably worth about 180 points. But looking long term, I can seen the Valkyrie box having its sprues recut and its options changed - perhaps they'll do a WD rejig as they did with some of the Daemon units? I'd hope its a possibility.

To make the Valkyrie and Vendetta atttractive, they need to have their purposes redefined. My suggestions would be the following:

-Valkyrie - the 'dedicated transport' option. Keeps its cargo bay, basic Multilaser fixed weapon, but mounts Hellfuries instead of Hellstrike (for clearing LZs with anti-personnel firepower) - can replace these with Rocket Pods. Retains heavy bolter door-mount sponson upgrade. Retain squadron structure of 1-3 as this allows for an 'air-landing' platoon using a conventional IG platoon (minimum of 3 separate units).

-Vendetta - the 'dedicated gunship' option. No transport capacity, or capacity 6 maximum - enough to hold a strike team of Storm Troopers or similar troops. This machine is all about providing heavy support for flights of Valkyries. Basic nose-mounted fixed weapon is a twin-linked Lascannon. Wing mounts start as twin-linked Multilasers, but can be upgraded to twin-linked Lascannons for a hefty price increase (probably 40 or 50 points). The Vendetta then has extra wing hardpoints, which take Hellstrike Rockets but can also be upgraded to Rocket Pods. Retain option for door-mount heavy bolter sponsons. 1 model only per slot - this vision of the Vendetta is menat to make it almost the IG equivalent of a flying MC, since the IG don't have this type of unit (nor should they).

Basically, I see the Vendetta as the Hind-D to the Valkyrie's Black Hawk or Jolly Green Giant - it goes in first, shatters any armoured resistance in the LZ. The Valks then go in, mop up any remaining resistance and the debus their cargo.

This is a pipe-dream, but I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta issue deserves more thought than just tinkering with the points. Both units need a clear purpose - at the moment, they sort of have the same purpose, but one is just much better at it than the other.

Very thoughtful! I love the look of the rocket pods, and the idea of two large blasts every turn. Hard to get in range though. But I will at least magnetize them to use them now and then. But the hell strike and hell fury alternatives are big mistakes by the designer I think. Of course it's reasonable that a bomb can't be dropped more than once, but from a gaming perspective, they're just boring.