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Black Adder
08-10-2012, 18:00
...and why some First Founding Legions have been left aside in the codex releases ?

It really bothers me, in particular because a reasonable company should have seen another money opportunity there...

iamcjb
08-10-2012, 18:04
You can field bikes as troops, bring 9 landspeeders and put any elites into Drop Pods. I would say thats a fairly good representation of White Scars.

Black Adder
08-10-2012, 18:12
So you say the common Codex is good enough... i was thinking about the Wolves

Lord Damocles
08-10-2012, 18:15
It's certainly a better representation of White Scars than under either the vanilla 3rd edition (nothing special) or 4th edition (bikes as Troops, transports royally screwed) codexes.

Even the Index Astartes list (like most of the other variants) was unnecessarily strict in it's arbitrary restictions, and in return you got... Power Lances. which were a bit rubbish.


Representing Chapters/Legions/Craftworlds/Regiments etc. shouldn't be about restrictions or special wargear - it should be about painting/modelling your army appropriately, and building your list/playing in a way which fits the background.

alextroy
08-10-2012, 18:15
Say what you want to about the balance of the Space Wolves Codex, it does show a bit more difference between them and vanilla marines then say the Blood Angels Codex. Other then moving Bikes to Troops, what more would you expect from a White Scars Army List?

iamcjb
08-10-2012, 18:17
If you want to represent wolves use the Sapce Wolves codex.

blackcherry
08-10-2012, 18:43
I would say that the current space marine codex can perfectly capture the white scars feel. You can use a captain to make bikes troops and then use the white scars special character to allow most of your army to ourflank. Jobs as good as done and all you need is a good way of painting white :).

Black Adder
08-10-2012, 19:27
Well White Scars is not all about bikes you know ? There's also some of the savage tendency that steps in the way and Wolves helped much in that way, in particular for troops. But sure, bikes are not their strongpoint (WS3 bleah...)
Maybe a Ravenwing list could be better but my point is that apart from bikes as troops there is nothing appealing in the vanillla codex. And as i said bikes are not the whole deal, at least to me...


all you need is a good way of painting white :).

I found that already thanks to Youtube :D

Still Standing
08-10-2012, 21:16
Have you thought about using the Grey Knights book? I feel it most accurately represents White Scars. Or perhaps Space Wolves so you can use Thunderwolf Cavalry, you can use them as super sized bikes.

SoulFire S
08-10-2012, 21:23
Personally I would use Dark Angels as I like the idea of having a jet bike in a White Scars force. Personally I'm not a fan of the brutal side of the scars and would rather show them as dirty nobles lol. But yea personal vote is for Dark Angels dex which hopefully with the new dex will be a bit more competitive.

Black Adder
08-10-2012, 21:52
Have you thought about using the Grey Knights book? I feel it most accurately represents White Scars

Are you serious ?

Zanzibarthefirst
08-10-2012, 22:30
White Scars is pretty much about bikes. they are based on Mongol culture who were famed for their savage horsemen. As for savage, I'm not sure how you think SW portray that so well but I for one wouldn't fancy meeting a space marine of any flavour down a dark back alley.

There is never going to be a separate codices for every single first Founding Chapter and I do not know what people expect but the current codex is probably as good as it'll ever get for White Scars and IMO it does a pretty good job.

Maidel
08-10-2012, 22:49
Im a bit confused as to what you expected a white scarrs army to look like?

How you expect an army that puts 'scouts' in power armour on their bikes to represent a veteran founding chapter bike army I will never know.

Normal space marine codex:

Captain on bike makes bikes troops

Command squad can be on bikes

All the characters can be on bikes



Im struggling to see the issue really. Everyone else can deepstrike, be in drop pods and use lots of speeders, scout bikers can infiltrate etc. The only thing missing from the index astarties was the power lance, and frankly it was rubbish anyway!

The_Klobb_Maniac
08-10-2012, 22:53
Grey Knights++. Dread Knights are perfect for White Scars. Purifiers can represent savagery.

Black Adder
08-10-2012, 22:54
I thought about the Wolves because i already had a list and some things like tactical squads seemed to be better looking. But then yes, bikes were awful and represented half of the fast units you had to use; maybe not mandatory but you know... It was more about the background than actual rules. I think you guys are right, maybe I would like to see some more fluff represented in games without simply changing names you know ?

I will stick to the old C:SM list i had until another option from the Dark Angels codex comes out. Their Ravenwing organization could be the only REAL alternative. don't you think ?




+++ White Scars (1500pts) +++

+ HQ + (550pts)

* Captain (165pts)
Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Relic Blade, Space Marine Bike

* Command Squad (260pts)
Apothecary, Company Champion, Space Marine Bikes
* Veteran
Power Weapon
* Veteran
Plasma Gun
* Veteran
Flamer
* Veteran
Flamer


* Librarian (125pts)
Terminator Armour


+ Troops + (660pts)

* Space Marine Bike Squad (195pts)
2x Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine Biker
* Biker Sergeant
Power Fist


* Space Marine Bike Squad (195pts)
2x Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine Biker
* Biker Sergeant
Power Fist


* Tactical Squad (135pts)
Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant
* Drop Pod


* Tactical Squad (135pts)
Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant
* Drop Pod


+ Fast Attack + (290pts)

* Land Speeder Squadron (290pts)
* Land Speeder
Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter
* Land Speeder
Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launcher
* Land Speeder
Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launcher


Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

DietDolphin
08-10-2012, 22:56
The white cars don't have a codex for the same reason many other chapters/legions don't, lack of time and lack of interest. In fact there is less interest in white scars then almost any other legion (arguably iron hands), and unlike the iron hands they still got a special character. A white scars codex really isn't a massive money opportunity at all.

Honestly the vanilla codex is perfect for white scars. Bikes as troops, tactical marines and scouts, land speeders and land speeder storm, drop pods and everything else! White scars is one of the few chapters that the vanilla codex as always been able to represent (even the 3rd edition, there's a sample white scars army in the book!)

No I don't think the space wolf codex is good at all (it's about as good as the grey knights codex at representing white scars as someone else jokingly pointed out). They don't have rules like auto senses and counter attack because they are savage, they have them because they are genetically part dog/wolf. It really seems like you want special rules for the sake of it so you can feel like a special snowflake.

If you want a savage army, then use savage tactics. It's that simple

Black Adder
08-10-2012, 23:24
For the sake of fluff, not for OP ;)

althathir
08-10-2012, 23:30
I thought about white scars as well at first they were going to be allies to my wolves. Now though if I ever start them, I decided I would use vanillas and have blood angels as allies. Have vanillas be the primary the detachment with a bike captain, and some bikers, joined with a BA detachment, with a libby (not sure if they can be on bike don't have my dex with me), a couple of assault squads in rhinos, and a maybe a vindicator. That way you'd have both the bike troops and the supercharged tanks that scars are supposed to have. The red thirst is the one thing thats hard to explain but the assault marines could be fresh and seeking to prove themselves while the libby is struggling with the warp.

S_A_T_S
08-10-2012, 23:31
White Scars is pretty much about bikes. they are based on Mongol culture who were famed for their savage horsemen. As for savage, I'm not sure how you think SW portray that so well but I for one wouldn't fancy meeting a space marine of any flavour down a dark back alley.

Quoted for truth. White Scars are no savages at all. As Zanzibar points out, they are based on the traditional mongol culture, which is usually seen as one of the more horse-dependant in history - they are a major factor in mongol history and culture, and most other cultures historical experience of mongols is hordes of fast, light cavalry armed with bows, lances and swords sweeping down on them in a gargantuan ball of dust, backed up by even more foot troops, archers and some light artillery. Marines can't ride horses > closest thing they have is bikes > C:SM allows you to take bike command and troops, and is best 'dex to represent them. Depending on how the Ravenwing portion of the next DA book goes, it might be better, but White Scars are a codex chapter, and shouldn't really be using a non-codex book in my view.

Freman Bloodglaive
08-10-2012, 23:42
Given the way in which relic blades have been nerfed (AP3) I would suggest a power axe with artificer armour instead. You gain AP2, an extra attack, and a 2+ save, and you lose 1 point of strength and striking at initiative. The alternative is thunder hammer and storm shield, but that is a little more pricey.

The Space Marine Codex does a pretty good bike list (a little overpriced now, but that's how the marines roll).

Your command squad is all over the place. Either roll shooty or assaulty, and equip based on that. Shooty, take four plasma guns. Assaulty, take a Champion (to suck up the challenges you don't want your Captain to take) three storm shields and a couple of power fists. Expensive, but that's how command squads roll.

Stick attack bikes with multi-meltas in with your bike squads, and I don't think you'll need the power fists.

You can't take any special weapons in a Tactical Squad until it's 10 man strong. You have bikes, you don't need tactical squads anyway.

Run Land Speeders as individual models always, until you run out of fast attack slots. If you do have to combine them make sure they have identical weapons so they're shooting at the same targets. Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter is not a good armament for an armour 10, 2 HP model. Take typhoon launchers and try to stay 48 inches away from the enemy.

Your librarian should be on a bike to fit with the theme.

Salmon
08-10-2012, 23:42
How you expect an army that puts 'scouts' in power armour on their bikes to represent a veteran founding chapter bike army I will never know.

I'm struggling to see the issue really. Everyone else can deepstrike, be in drop pods and use lots of speeders, scout bikers can infiltrate etc. The only thing missing from the index astartes was the power lance, and frankly it was rubbish anyway! I think the power lance is still in by virtue of it being a sub-category of power weapons, though I'd never begrudge a White Scars player for using relic blade rules for suitably impressive lance; I also seriously hope that the people mentioning Space Wolves are mucking about, representing the most talented biking chapter with a codex that can't even take bikes as troops, really?

The White Scars in the Index Astartes were not allowed to use vindicators nor dreadnoughts or any unit not mounted in a transport on a bike, land speeder or with a jump pack save for scouts. Their bikers were relatively more elite and numerous than any other codex compliant chapter's bikes, possessing additional close combat weapons, the skilled riders, counter attack and hit and run special rules (except attack bikes, who only benefited from skilled riders). Veteran squads could be mounted, their scout bikes possessed an early version of the outflank rule and finally the holy relics carried by the chapter's chaplains were Mongol-themed.

When the 4th edition codex was released they lost many of these themed rules. They were permitted vindicators in limited numbers, had their access to other tanks reduced,and were prohibited from using crusader or annihilator variants wholesale. Their close combat prowess was still represented by counter attack (along with true grit). They lost hit and run and had to pay for skilled riders, however their veterans gained access to either tank hunters or furious charge.

The current Codex: Space Marines, by is easily the best of the current codices for representing White Scars if you limit your heavy armour and ensure every unit is in some way mobile (be it through drop pod, transport, bike, speeder or jump pack), though it must be remembered that the White Scars are no way as specialized as the Ravenwing. The current codex is still imperfect, for it lacks the representation of the skill of the regular biker in this chapter and only represents veteran bikers using the command squad. Nonetheless bikers as a scoring troops choice without a special character unlock are pretty hard to pass up and the codex represents the Chapter as well as it does the other medium-codex compliant first founding chapters, like the Iron Hands and Salamanders.

DietDolphin
08-10-2012, 23:45
For the sake of fluff, not for OP ;)

What fluff exactly supports anything you say? All fluff I have read on white scars says that they are a codex chapter that makes uses of a lot bikes and other fast stuff. Nothing much about being exceptionally skilled bikers (like ravenwing, ravenwing bikers are all veterans remember) and nothing about an enhanced sense of smell, novice bikers/assault marine, veteran scouts or lack of land speeder storms (space wolves).

ehlijen
09-10-2012, 01:27
Back in the 3rd ed SM codex, a white scars army was just a SM army that favoured fast and combat units over heavy weapons. No reason you can't do that now.

Yes, the mongols used horses, but if they'd had rhinos they'd have used them a lot too. So don't discount transports for making a fast army.

You want them to be fast? Bikes as troops, troops in transports, Jump packs for variety.
You want them to be vicious: CC scouts as troops (can go in a Storm), take more CC units than fire support units.
Paint them white.
Take Kahn if you like him
Done, you have a white scars army.

althathir
09-10-2012, 01:39
Man, I really thought a small blood angel detachment to get some fast vehicles in was a good ideal, but clearly its gained no traction :(.

Black Adder
09-10-2012, 08:17
Thanks Freman, but those errors you pointed out correctly, are in fact typos. Battlescribe left aside the total number of marines (they are 10) and I put together all the speeders to be quick.


Yes, the mongols used horses, but if they'd had rhinos they'd have used them a lot too. So don't discount transports for making a fast army.

You want them to be fast? Bikes as troops, troops in transports, Jump packs for variety.
You want them to be vicious: CC scouts as troops (can go in a Storm), take more CC units than fire support units.
Paint them white.
Take Kahn if you like him
Done, you have a white scars army.

This is good, fast advice :) Only drawback the Storm sucks in 6th Edition they tell me. Too fragile now.


What fluff exactly supports anything you say? All fluff I have read on white scars says that they are a codex chapter that makes uses of a lot bikes and other fast stuff. Nothing much about being exceptionally skilled bikers (like ravenwing, ravenwing bikers are all veterans remember) and nothing about an enhanced sense of smell, novice bikers/assault marine, veteran scouts or lack of land speeder storms (space wolves).

The fluff i meant was the fluff without Codex and i was merely looking around for something aesthetically similar. I don't need to be investigated on looking for special rules. I said more than once that the only good thing from the Wolves are the GHs setup because it's "faster" and I never mentioned something so advantageous like LFs because White Scars are suspected not to have a single unit of Devastators.


Man, I really thought a small blood angel detachment to get some fast vehicles in was a good ideal, but clearly its gained no traction http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/smilies/frown.png.

No Brother, I thought about it and that list I proposed is an old one. Moreover Red with White looks nice :)

mughi3
09-10-2012, 10:10
Best way to make white scars-codex space wolves, take logan grimnar to unlock wolf guard as troops. put them on bikes, give them jump packs or in transports and equip them however you like(lots of options for WG).

It is sad to say but wolf guard can more effectively do any build in any other codex or themed force for marines and do it better in most cases.

Maidel
09-10-2012, 10:17
Oh for goodness sakes. How is that remotely more white scary than using the normal marine codex?

It's not, it's just more power gamy. Why is every army 'better represented' by using spacewolves? Answer - because people see the codex as being over powered and thus want to crowbar in any army into that codex.

Tourniquet
09-10-2012, 10:29
It's been said to death

Codex CSM

Bikes as troops, Land speeders, drop pods ect.

The Units I would use to represent White scars

Biker Lord + Command Squad
Bikes as troops
Stern Guard in pods (elite/veterans who pin point units)
Tank Support
Units in transports.
Land Speeders
Scout Bikes

Its easy
Any one tryingt o use BA/SW/ect.
Just want a power gamey army, and will make any excuse to make it fit the fluff they like

Black Adder
09-10-2012, 11:08
Answer is because classic tacticals are not fast deployment looking to me while 2 special weapons are. But by the tone of you guys I guess it won't be enough as explanation.

People are getting overheated, but the best choice is clear: C:SM and nothing else.

Thanks everybody for their time