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victorvictor6
08-10-2012, 18:20
The scene is VC lord plus two vampire with Spirit leech all in one unit , a knights bus perhaps.
So in the rulebook 1.5 FAQ page 4 . It says that the unmodified leadership is the highest characteristic in the unit.

So when spirit leech is cast by the vampire , which LD do you use : his original stat or his NEW unmodified leadership stat while he's in his lords unit???

laribold
08-10-2012, 18:36
Unfortunately (and massively stupidly IMO) you use the Lords Ld stat. That's what the FAQ defines unmodified leadership as...

The Low King
08-10-2012, 19:03
Im pretty sure that FAQ only applies when taking leadership tests

Hell Storm
09-10-2012, 01:17
Im pretty sure that FAQ only applies when taking leadership tests

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. it states:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

You get to use LD 10 for that spell. What it should have stated is a unit's unmodified leadership is the highest in the unit. A model's unmodified leadership is the number printed on his profile.

Blkc57
09-10-2012, 01:22
Im pretty sure that FAQ only applies when taking leadership tests

The answer to the FAQ Question itself doesn't involve leadership tests, it only mentions unmodified leadership.

Bitten Black Sheep
09-10-2012, 02:17
You have to read the answer in the context of the question though. This FAQ only applies to leadership tests as per the question.
Spirit Leach is not a Ld test so you use the printed leadership statistic.
This one has been discussed ad infinitum before with the usual angst.

decker_cky
09-10-2012, 03:40
You have to read the answer in the context of the question though. This FAQ only applies to leadership tests as per the question.
Spirit Leach is not a Ld test so you use the printed leadership statistic.
This one has been discussed ad infinitum before with the usual angst.

Erm....have you read what the question it? "What is your unmodified leadership?" That's all the question is.

"When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership."

All this line does is set up one situation where unmodified leadership is used, but the question is still "What is your unmodified leadership?".

The answer applies to Spirit Leech.

Bitten Black Sheep
09-10-2012, 04:03
Sorry but I disagree. You have to take the earlier sentence to keep it in context IMO.
Still it is a very badly worded FAQ and I can accept your interpretation. In a tournament I would ask for a TO ruling, in a friendly I would do something else. I wonder if there was any dispute before the FAQ was put out? To me, unmodified leadership was quite straightforward before this FAQ.
Come to think of it, can you think of any situation where you do use unmodified Ld for a Ld test? If there isn't one then it must be applying to spirit leech and I'll agree with your interpretation.

sulla
09-10-2012, 05:06
Sorry but I disagree. You have to take the earlier sentence to keep it in context IMO.
Still it is a very badly worded FAQ and I can accept your interpretation. In a tournament I would ask for a TO ruling, in a friendly I would do something else. I wonder if there was any dispute before the FAQ was put out? To me, unmodified leadership was quite straightforward before this FAQ.
Come to think of it, can you think of any situation where you do use unmodified Ld for a Ld test? If there isn't one then it must be applying to spirit leech and I'll agree with your interpretation.There was debate before the ruling unfortunately becausse unmodified leadership is not defined anywhere in the rules so the question was mostly asked in regards to whether replaced /substituted ld was 'modified' Ld. GWs boffins have decided that replaced/substituted ld is not modified.

Do I particularly agree? Not really, but a poor ruling is almost always better than no ruling. Anything that shortens the argument phase inevitably increases the duration of the other, more enjoyable phases of the game. :)

Artinam
09-10-2012, 06:51
I agree that the leadership test thing is just a setup for the question, which is mentioned in the second sentence: what is unmodified leadership.

And yes spiritleech works in such a way, although my opponent had some trouble convincing me (partly because he didn't bring an FAQ and the rule judges felt they didn't one and expected everyone else to bring one).

Wesser
09-10-2012, 17:18
There's like a huuuge threat going on at Carpe Noctem about this.

Personally, I'm with the Low King on this. It is open to interpretation, and frankly it's dick move to even try and claim it.

I'd certainly not play you twice

Smogg
09-10-2012, 17:52
Sprit Leech state that you add your unmodified leadership to the test.
The FAQ state that unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

And thats supposed to be ambiguous???? seriously guys.... o... m... g...

sulla
09-10-2012, 18:28
There's like a huuuge threat going on at Carpe Noctem about this.

Personally, I'm with the Low King on this. It is open to interpretation, and frankly it's dick move to even try and claim it.

I'd certainly not play you twiceKinda bullying to refuse to play someone who is only playing by GWs own FAQs isn't it? Suck it up and play on, I say. It's not the first bad/silly ruling and it won't be the last but it's not enough to rage over IMO.

Zeroth
10-10-2012, 07:16
The FAQ is crystal clear on this matter.

"Eric is wearing a black t-shirt"
"No, I disagree"

It doesn't matter, it's still a black t-shirt.

AMWOOD co
10-10-2012, 09:20
Sprit Leech state that you add your unmodified leadership to the test.
The FAQ state that unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

And thats supposed to be ambiguous???? seriously guys.... o... m... g...

No, it quite clearly states how you would determine the unmodified Ld of a unit for a Ld test (like how steadfast is written in the books, which I'm sure had every skaven and goblin player in a mild panic).

However, spirit leech is asking for the Ld of a model, not a unit. Let me clarify:

Could the ruling of this FAQ be extended to a hypothetical spell demanding a Strength Test on a model using it's unmodified Strength? "What is the unmodified Strength for a Strength test?" Well it's the highest in the unit. "But don't models only use their own Strength when asked for that?"…Ld tests aren't characteristic tests.

This was a hot topic not too long ago and still pops up with Dwarfs on occasion (why dwarfs specifically?…wait, don't answer, I don't really care). Every time, the same answer is given. When tests for individuals are made, each model uses its own value (its actually just three questions up from the unmodified Ld test question on p4 of the FAQ). So, are we dismissing that the unmodified Ld of a model would be different than the unmodified Ld of a unit simply to avoid actually thinking about it?

As long as I'm ranting, anyone else think that GW has given up on updating the Erratas and FAQ's except to remove books as new ones become published?

The Low King
10-10-2012, 11:41
Sprit Leech state that you add your unmodified leadership to the test.
The FAQ state that unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

And thats supposed to be ambiguous???? seriously guys.... o... m... g...

No, the problem is that the FAQ says that the unmodified leadership when taking leadership tests is the highest in the unit, wich makes complete sense when applied to the unit.

However, GW makes it clear (including in other FAQs) that when a model has to take a characteristic test it uses only the models characteristic, regardless of what else is in the unit.

Thyphs
10-10-2012, 12:14
No, it quite clearly states how you would determine the unmodified Ld of a unit for a Ld test (like how steadfast is written in the books, which I'm sure had every skaven and goblin player in a mild panic).

However, spirit leech is asking for the Ld of a model, not a unit.

+1 for you - totally agree with this logic. The purpose of the unmodified leadership is to counter other effects - for example - your wizard lord at ld 10 targets another ld 10 wizard with spirit leech, now there is a 50/50 chance to do some wounds because there both ld 10. however if you factor in other effects - for example Doom and darkness (-3 ld) then its ld 10 vs ld 7 which is already a huge advantage. Alternatively you could target a ld 7 wizard but within an inspiring presence range of ld 10. The unmodified leadership part is written so its simple to work out. At least thats how it works in my mind......

Smogg
10-10-2012, 12:37
You guys are clearly confusing Unmodified Leadership with Leadership written in the models profile.
Leadership written in the profile is only used for mindrazor as I recall, and in this case it is specified in the eratta.

DaemonReign
10-10-2012, 12:47
As long as I'm ranting, anyone else think that GW has given up on updating the Erratas and FAQ's except to remove books as new ones become published?

No tangible profit in doing things differently I reckon. :shifty:

I don't know what to make of this issue. It just looks like Another botched set of rules really. Boiling down to what-ever resolution you prefer, with the ad-hoc emphasis on whatever Words in the text you decide to put weight on.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 13:42
You guys are clearly confusing Unmodified Leadership with Leadership written in the models profile.
Leadership written in the profile is only used for mindrazor as I recall, and in this case it is specified in the eratta.

No, we are distinguishing between a units leadership and a models leadership

DaemonReign
10-10-2012, 13:50
No, we are distinguishing between a units leadership and a models leadership

Isn't Smogg simply questioning whether the RULES actually make that distinction for LD-checks?

Oh I don't know.. To me the FAQ-bit reported upthread seems to read: Just use the best LD in the unit, damn you..
But it is sort of 'off' somehow.. I can see how you'd come to Another conclusion..

decker_cky
10-10-2012, 15:03
Let's assume that the intro sentence means something....then what is unmodified leadership for a model? Find me a rule without you inventing it.

There's two interpretations, one leads to an ambiguity and one leads to clarity. The one leading to clarity must be correct.

Necromancy Black
10-10-2012, 15:16
This is why I love the wording of the Blade of Realities, where is clearly says use the models own unmodified leadership.

The problem here is that the wording of the question and answer don't match up properly. The answer isn't directly referring to unmodified leadership for leadership tests, it's referring to what unmodified leadership is generally. But then the question is talking about for leadership tests.

I think GW have given the answer they wanted to a poorly bloody written question. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with a straight up "What does Unmodified Leadership mean."?

The Low King
10-10-2012, 15:52
Let's assume that the intro sentence means something....then what is unmodified leadership for a model? Find me a rule without you inventing it.

There's two interpretations, one leads to an ambiguity and one leads to clarity. The one leading to clarity must be correct.

Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Seems pretty clear. If the UNIT is taking a leadership test on its unmodified leadership then is uses the highest in the units (as per the other FAQ). If a MODEL is using its leadership then the model uses its own characteristic.

Oh, and defining our argument as 'ambiguous' means nothing unless you can demonstrate why it is ambiguous.

Harwammer
10-10-2012, 16:17
My house rules follow the principle you mention there The Low King.

Going back to the FAQ, for the purposes of Spirit Leech I treat the two 'units' as the model casting the spell and the model being targetted when determining 'unmodified leadership'. In spirit of the rule you mention, The Low King, I do not allow these two models to benefit from the stats of a unit they may be accompanying when resolving the spell.

They would, however, benefit from any magic resistance the unit carries.

Smogg
10-10-2012, 16:36
Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Seems pretty clear. If the UNIT is taking a leadership test on its unmodified leadership then is uses the highest in the units (as per the other FAQ). If a MODEL is using its leadership then the model uses its own characteristic.


Seems pretty clear but unfortunately a leadership test is not a characteristic test.
P10. "A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristics test. Such a test could be applied against any characteristic the model has, save leadership"

Secondly it was pointed out earlier that Spirit Leech does not invoke a Leadership or Characteristic test in the first place.

Spirit Leech require use of Unmodified Leadership, and the only definition of this that I know of was already referenced in the FAQ: "Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit."

And no. I don't think GW is gonna try to write it any more crisp. There are always gonna be people that will claim anything open for interpretation no matter how much effort is put into the sentence structure and wording.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 17:24
stuff


So you dismiss our argument because we focus on the use of the word 'leadership test' but then do exactly the same thing yourself?

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 17:47
I used to be firmly in the camp of "highest in the unit". I thought it was bizarre to say the least but I really saw no other way of reading it. It didn't even occur to me that there was anything else to it and I just chalked it up s

However...

Discussions about this have actually opened my eyes to what the intent of the FAQ was and I've actually changed my position on this. The key problem is: what does "your" mean in the context of the question and answer?


Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

Your by itself doesn't actually tell us whether they meant your unit's or your model's or both. The question and answer is simply vague. Given that the preamble mentions Ld tests, it seems likely that it meant your unit's unmodified Ld.

This makes a whole lot more sense when we all knew what our "unmodified" Ld should be for Spirit Leech before the FAQ came along - whatever Ld value you have on your profile!

I personally think this FAQ should apply to units and for Spirit Leech you should take the highest value on the model in question. Saying that the FAQ applies to cases where a model's unmodified Ld is used means assuming that "your unmodified Ld" refers to specifically "your model's unmodified Ld" which I feel is a loophole and not the intent of the rule.

Smogg
10-10-2012, 18:09
@ Lord Inquisitor

Hmm ok, so is your view that:
For leadership and leadership tests against a unit, use highest leadership in the unit and allow IP and modifiers.
For unmodified leadership and unmodified leadership tests against the unit, use the highest leadership in the unit (as printed in profile)
For leadership and leadership tests against a model use the model's printed leadership but allow IP and modifiers.
For unmodified leadership and unmodified leadership tests against the model use, use the leadership printed in the profile.
?

Harwammer
10-10-2012, 18:20
incorrect, Lord Inquisitor. The word 'your' is clearly refering to the player. So a OnG player has a black orc warboss in a unit of night goblins that player's unmodified leadership is 9.

Kidding, obviously, you raise a very good point!

Smogg
10-10-2012, 18:22
I mean I really see the logic, and it would be a fine ruleset indeed, that I have no problem with, if that was what they wrote. But just to point to another place in the rules where it's quite clear:

P. 100 Leadership Tests:
"As we have already mentioned way back on page 10, Leadership tests are always taken using the highest value present in the unit. In case of a combined unit, this will normally be the character, but might occasionally prove to be the rank and file of the unit themselves, particularly in the case of elite warriors"

Now the word "always" is pretty straight forward. True, it does not mention if they meant unit tests or model tests or both. But the fact that they write "always" should logically cover all cases.
Now adding that it has to be an Unmodified Leadership test, logically you would need to take the highest unmodified value present in the unit. This is also supported by the FAQ, but even without the FAQ, it is actually what the rules state already, and likely the reason no errata was needed on this.

Thyphs
10-10-2012, 18:22
Spirit Leech require use of Unmodified Leadership, and the only definition of this that I know of was already referenced in the FAQ: "Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit


Since certain people love to focus on one part of a piece of text i shall do the same - can someone please look at the wording of the spell (i dont have the BRB with me atm) does the spell say at any point "their or their own" - i dont care about the deffinition of unmodified leadership.

If it does say "their or their own" then use the profile
if it just says unmodified leadership then we have a problem.

Spirit leech is not a leadership test - it takes a value to roll off against
the only reference we have to unmodified leadership is for a unit taking a leadership test - hazy - i know :P

Dare i raise the point that if a hero is in a unit with a lord how can the hero use the lords leadership - each hero is a unit within another unit.

Harwammer
10-10-2012, 18:36
P. 100 Leadership Tests:
"Leadership tests are always taken using the highest value present in the unit."

Now the word "always" is pretty straight forward. True, it does not mention if they meant unit tests or model tests or both. But the fact that they write "always" should logically cover all cases.
Now adding that it has to be an Unmodified Leadership test, logically you would need to take the highest unmodified value present in the unit. This is also supported by the FAQ, but even without the FAQ, it is actually what the rules state already, and likely the reason no errata was needed on this.
Remember, Spirit Leech is not a leadership test, so the 'always use the highest value present in the unit' clause wouldn't be invoked.

Not that this undoes any other points in the discussion.

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 19:23
@ Lord Inquisitor

Hmm ok, so is your view that:
For leadership and leadership tests against a unit, use highest leadership in the unit and allow IP and modifiers.
For unmodified leadership and unmodified leadership tests against the unit, use the highest leadership in the unit (as printed in profile)
For leadership and leadership tests against a model use the model's printed leadership but allow IP and modifiers.
For unmodified leadership and unmodified leadership tests against the model use, use the leadership printed in the profile.
?
Yes, I'd agree with that.

Note that it has a parallel with another area of common confusion. The wording for characteristic tests is confusing and seems to suggest that you can use the highest in the unit, but that only applies for a characteristic test that affects the unit. A net of amnytok is a strength test for the unit, so you use the highest in the unit. A dwellers below is a strength test for each model, so each model uses his own (but the highest per model if a model has more than one value).


incorrect, Lord Inquisitor. The word 'your' is clearly refering to the player.
But I only have Ld6!


Since certain people love to focus on one part of a piece of text i shall do the same - can someone please look at the wording of the spell (i dont have the BRB with me atm) does the spell say at any point "their or their own" - i dont care about the deffinition of unmodified leadership.
It says it "targets a single enemy model (even a character in a unit). Both caster and target roll a D6 and add their respective unmodified Leadership values. For each point the caster wins by, the target suffer a wound with no armour saves allowed."

decker_cky
10-10-2012, 19:32
I used to be firmly in the camp of "highest in the unit". I thought it was bizarre to say the least but I really saw no other way of reading it. It didn't even occur to me that there was anything else to it and I just chalked it up s

However...

Discussions about this have actually opened my eyes to what the intent of the FAQ was and I've actually changed my position on this. The key problem is: what does "your" mean in the context of the question and answer?



Your by itself doesn't actually tell us whether they meant your unit's or your model's or both. The question and answer is simply vague. Given that the preamble mentions Ld tests, it seems likely that it meant your unit's unmodified Ld.

This makes a whole lot more sense when we all knew what our "unmodified" Ld should be for Spirit Leech before the FAQ came along - whatever Ld value you have on your profile!

I personally think this FAQ should apply to units and for Spirit Leech you should take the highest value on the model in question. Saying that the FAQ applies to cases where a model's unmodified Ld is used means assuming that "your unmodified Ld" refers to specifically "your model's unmodified Ld" which I feel is a loophole and not the intent of the rule.

It's ambiguous, therefore I take the path where I invent the rules I want!

There's only 1 fully functional interpretation to that sentence. Your has to refer to the model or unit being targeted.

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 20:06
It's ambiguous, therefore I take the path where I invent the rules I want!
Indeed. One can throw that accusation at both sides that try to resolve an ambiguity though.


There's only 1 fully functional interpretation to that sentence. Your has to refer to the model or unit being targeted.
I remain unconvinced, I find the wording continues to be ambiguous. Even if it were the case, I think there's a good argument to be made that the FAQ is referring to the situation of unmodified Ld tests, given this is the setting of the question, and that there was never any intent to make this apply to spirit leech. RAW vs RAI, blah blah blah.

I believe the intent of the spell was never to allow your Ld9 or 10 buddy (particularly if not a wizard!) to bump your Ld. This FAQ was frankly unnecessary and confusing as hell. Saying that this FAQ applies here requires an assumption that "your Ld" means "your model's Ld". Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but I find the most conservative approach is to say that I won't be making the assumption that the FAQ applies anything more than a unit's unmodified Ld. Then the spell works just the way it appears to in the spell description and the tactic of sticking multiple Ld7 wizards in a unit with a Ld9 or 10 character and chain-gunning spirit leech doesn't work, for which I shed no tears.

decker_cky
10-10-2012, 20:21
Indeed. One can throw that accusation at both sides that try to resolve an ambiguity though.


I remain unconvinced, I find the wording continues to be ambiguous. Even if it were the case, I think there's a good argument to be made that the FAQ is referring to the situation of unmodified Ld tests, given this is the setting of the question, and that there was never any intent to make this apply to spirit leech. RAW vs RAI, blah blah blah.

I believe the intent of the spell was never to allow your Ld9 or 10 buddy (particularly if not a wizard!) to bump your Ld. This FAQ was frankly unnecessary and confusing as hell. Saying that this FAQ applies here requires an assumption that "your Ld" means "your model's Ld". Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but I find the most conservative approach is to say that I won't be making the assumption that the FAQ applies anything more than a unit's unmodified Ld. Then the spell works just the way it appears to in the spell description and the tactic of sticking multiple Ld7 wizards in a unit with a Ld9 or 10 character and chain-gunning spirit leech doesn't work, for which I shed no tears.

Your is pretty unambiguously referring to whatever is being targeted. It works for both unit and model. Without depending on this, you just have to invent a rule whenever spirit leech is cast, or pack up your models.

I think your previous post was actually pretty telling. You read it and interpreted it as applying to all instances of unmodified leadership, didn't like it, then went in word by word and found a way to interpret it as ambiguous, and used that to justify the answer you intuitively wanted.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 21:42
I mean I really see the logic, and it would be a fine ruleset indeed, that I have no problem with, if that was what they wrote. But just to point to another place in the rules where it's quite clear:

P. 100 Leadership Tests:
"As we have already mentioned way back on page 10, Leadership tests are always taken using the highest value present in the unit. In case of a combined unit, this will normally be the character, but might occasionally prove to be the rank and file of the unit themselves, particularly in the case of elite warriors"

Now the word "always" is pretty straight forward. True, it does not mention if they meant unit tests or model tests or both. But the fact that they write "always" should logically cover all cases.
Now adding that it has to be an Unmodified Leadership test, logically you would need to take the highest unmodified value present in the unit. This is also supported by the FAQ, but even without the FAQ, it is actually what the rules state already, and likely the reason no errata was needed on this.

As pointed out by others in answer to this and previously: the spell is not a leadership test.

belgarath97
10-10-2012, 23:21
Kinda bullying to refuse to play someone who is only playing by GWs own FAQs isn't it? Suck it up and play on, I say. It's not the first bad/silly ruling and it won't be the last but it's not enough to rage over IMO.


Bullying?!? Choosing not to play someone because it's not fun for you, is not Bullying. It's actually a reasonable response, so long as you do it in a non-aggressive manner. There are players in my area I don't like playing for various reasons, but all ultimately come down to, I won't have fun.

And before anyone says it, I am known for having more fun in games I lose then ones I win. Also I've never had anyone not play me if I asked. So I'm not only playing inferior opponents. I'm actually on a woeful losing streak.

DaemonReign
10-10-2012, 23:24
As pointed out by others in answer to this and previously: the spell is not a leadership test.

That definately ought to resolve this issue.
Then we're simply talking about two models using their unmodified leadership in a deadly prick-measuring contest.
Arn't we?
Seriously? :)

belgarath97
10-10-2012, 23:26
Sprit Leech state that you add your unmodified leadership to the test.
The FAQ state that unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

And thats supposed to be ambiguous???? seriously guys.... o... m... g...


Absolutly, un-ambiguous, but so is this:


Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Seems to me, this puts in question when a model is required to take a test, it uses it's characteristic.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 23:39
That definately ought to resolve this issue.
Then we're simply talking about two models using their unmodified leadership in a deadly prick-measuring contest.
Arn't we?
Seriously? :)

I think you need to reread this entire discussion from the begining again.

DaemonReign
11-10-2012, 01:39
I think you need to reread this entire discussion from the begining again.

Probably.. :p

Maoriboy007
11-10-2012, 02:15
That definately ought to resolve this issue.
Then we're simply talking about two models using their unmodified leadership in a deadly prick-measuring contest.
Arn't we?
Seriously? :)
[Wizard one] "bet you it is..."
[Wizard two] "bet you it isn't..."
(sound of robes rustling)
[Wizard one] "told you"
(Wizard two dies....)

Bitten Black Sheep
11-10-2012, 05:15
Well Mr. Maori boy at first I'd thought we'd settled the issue.
But then again how could my Bretonnian Damsel measure up to your wizard?
This hardly seems fair and I'm sure its not the intent of the rule.
In fact, once you see what's behind her robes.... no better not go there... but I'm sure you would get even more of an advantage.
This definitely needs an FAQ or the whole game will collapse.

Smogg
11-10-2012, 05:44
Absolutly, un-ambiguous, but so is this:

Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Seems to me, this puts in question when a model is required to take a test, it uses it's characteristic.

P10. "A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristics test. Such a test could be applied against any characteristic the model has, save leadership"

Thyphs
11-10-2012, 06:53
We have a few steps here

Is spirit leech a leadership test - NO
Can charachters pass stats onto other models apart from leadership - NO
Can Charachters pass leadership to their own unit for leadership tests - YES
Does the FAQ mention unmodified leadership tests for the purposes of leadership tests - YES
Does lore of Death allow you to target any model you like - YES
Does the spell specifically state that the model has to use thier own Leadership without any outside interferance(This is called unmodifed leadership. i.e nobody can interfere or pass any benefit) - YES

Please someone come and disagree with these facts


You know why there isnt an FAQ - because most people can read a set of rules and look at unmodified leadership and look at the spell and actually work out that you use the profile.

Lets look at another example that i mentioned earlier

In a unit of Empire Swordsmen (LD 7) we have a battle wizard (LD7) and an Arch Lector (LD9) - an enemy Death wizard lord - lets say LD8
Now by the logic of saying unmodified leadership is allowed to be passed on if the death wizard targets anything in that unit it is leadership 9
But wait ....... the spell isnt a leadership test, ok lets use Caress , thats a strength test, shall you use the Arch lectors strength value too?...oh no you cant because you cant pass on charachteristics to other models. So lets spirit leech the wizard....now how can it use the Arch lectors leadership. For 1 hes a charachter and therefore his own unit (within another granted - but thats allowed by the rules) and second and this is the most important part - ITS NOT A LEADERSHIP TEST therefore any model with a higher leadership cannon pass it on - this isn't a game of pass the best stat - models have profiles for a reason.

Im going as far as to say some people are streching rules so thin to get an advantage that it borders on cheating - again similar to other threads im sure any tournament referee would bitch slap anyone for trying to use someone elses leadership...................

Smogg
11-10-2012, 07:42
Is spirit leech a leadership test - NO
Agreed.

Can charachters pass stats onto other models apart from leadership - NO
Agreed.

Can Charachters pass leadership to their own unit for leadership tests - YES
Agreed.

Does the FAQ mention unmodified leadership tests for the purposes of leadership tests - YES
Agreed.
However Leadership Test is only mentioned in sentence leading to the question. The actual question and actual answer is not limited to leadership tests only. It deals with the more general question "What is unmodified leadership"

Does lore of Death allow you to target any model you like - YES
Agreed

Does the spell specifically state that the model has to use thier own Leadership without any outside interferance(This is called unmodifed leadership. i.e nobody can interfere or pass any benefit) - YES
Disagree. It specifically state that you add the unmodified leadership value to the roll.

In closing. Yeah I agree Spirit Leech is not using a leadership test. Yes, I do understand why some people draw parallel to leadership tests/characteristics test.

If you choose not to draw parallel to leadership tests/characteristics test thats fine, and then the only defenition of unmodified leadership is found in the FAQ.
If you do choose to draw parallel to leadership tests/characteristics test thats fine too. Then you will notice that leadership works different than remaning characteristics. For leadership tests you always use the highest leadership within the unit where as for characteristics test on models, the individial profile is used.

It's fine if some people wish to draw parallels to "tests". Both approaches support that you use the highest leadership within the unit for spirit leach. Just remember if you do wish to draw parallel to the tests that characteristics tests and leadership tests work differently, and excatly that difference support what is already spelled out in the FAQ about unmodified leadership
It's fine if others don't want to draw parallels to the "tests". I do agree that spirit leech is not a "test". In that case only the FAQ remains, and there the answer is clear.

Thyphs
11-10-2012, 08:38
ok so heres the contradiction then

Skaven.........

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

So by that argument for spirit leech Skaven must take their unmodified leadership test

SO say a slave unit (ld2) with a warlord (LD7)
spirit leech a slave, unmodified leadership of 7 for the warlord - but its not a leadership test so therefore does the strength in numbers special rule come into effect so actually it will be leadership 10.

Same goes for Inspiring presence - you could argue becasue its not a leadership test its the highest availible.


Your taking 1 example (granted its the only example) and trying to bend its meaning to a situation that actually is different enough to warrant its own FAQ point. Your also ignoring the logicial reason why in the example above your allowed to use the highest leadership. Because the unit involved is made up of multiple units and the thing with the highest leadership (most likely a charachter) is directly affected. with spirit leech it is not if hes not targeted hes not affected therefore cannot "help" in any way shape or form.

Leadership is meant to represent courage - hence if a big gribbly monster charges a unit with a charachter the charachter will steady his men.....if they get shot by guns he certainly aint going to suddenly make them tougher -thats logic!! then again when did logic come into a fantasy game :-p

We wont agree, i have resigned myself to that....you are quite free to play it how you like within your own gaming areas - i know how we play and how the official GW tournaments run it so i can still sleep happy in my bed tonight

Smogg
11-10-2012, 08:50
If you read the answer as is...

"Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell"

...without inventing stuff that limits it to leadership tests only, then its very clear that Strength in Numbers, IP and so forth does not apply for spirit leech.


I don't get your point at all. It seems you have just highlighted all the problems with your own interpritation.

Harwammer
11-10-2012, 09:06
Absolutly, un-ambiguous, but so is this:



Seems to me, this puts in question when a model is required to take a test, it uses it's characteristic.

Characteristic tests are fundamentally different to leadership tests because characteristic tests use the model's stat whereas a model can use a nearby friend's stat for a leadership test.

What is unclear is if a model can use a nearby friend's leadership for a procedure that isn't a leadership test (i.e. spirit leech). The wording of the 'unmodified leadership' FAQ allows this if we read it without the context that the QnA refers to leadership tests.

At my house we play a model's unmodified leadership for non-tests is not effected by stat modifiers, ip or nearby models. For Ld tests when a unit uses it's unmodifed Ld we use the FAQ. For Ld tests where a model in a unit uses it's unmodified Ld I don't think we've made a ruling.

Thyphs
11-10-2012, 10:23
If you read the answer as is...

"Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell"

...without inventing stuff that limits it to leadership tests only, then its very clear that Strength in Numbers, IP and so forth does not apply for spirit leech.


I don't get your point at all. It seems you have just highlighted all the problems with your own interpritation.


You say that without inventing stuff that limits it to leadership tests are you not by definition creating stuff that doesnt limit it to leadership tests? exactly the opposite. Are either of us right or wrong - maybe not.
What i am actually doing is creating other posibilities by your definition that would become applicable.

DaemonReign
11-10-2012, 13:27
Damn it people if it's not a leadership test (which it isn't!) but instead a comparative roll with added (unmodified) leadership on a model-to-model basis then.. Doesn't that just Close this subject?
I know you told me to read the entire thread again The Low King, and maybe I should, but just looking at the posts made over the last 12 hours since I made my comical remark about two guys measuring their genitals we just seem to be going 'round a loop:
Leadership tests are not Characteristic Tests, per say.
Unmodified leadership is the best value in the unit.
When individual models take Characteristic tests they use their own written stat.

We can all see the flagrant contradictions in the different page-references and FAQ-instances posted upthread.. But at least I'm becoming increasingly convinced that RAI is simply that two models (with Spirit Leech in effect) simply use their (individual) unmodified (i.e. stated!) Leadership-value for the roll-off.

hamsterwheel
11-10-2012, 17:19
Spirit Leach
"Both caster and target roll a D6 and add their respective unmodified Leadership values."

Just for curiosity's sake. How were people playing it before the FAQ?

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2012, 17:33
Your is pretty unambiguously referring to whatever is being targeted. It works for both unit and model. Without depending on this, you just have to invent a rule whenever spirit leech is cast, or pack up your models.
Spirit leech works perfectly well without a FAQ. ;)


I think your previous post was actually pretty telling. You read it and interpreted it as applying to all instances of unmodified leadership, didn't like it, then went in word by word and found a way to interpret it as ambiguous, and used that to justify the answer you intuitively wanted.
Not really, I played it the way I had initially read it, but in a discussion regarding this exact topic (where I was arguing for using the highest Ld in a unit), it was pointed out to me the context of the question and the ambiguity of the answer. I addressed my own assumptions regarding the question and answer.


Spirit Leach
"Both caster and target roll a D6 and add their respective unmodified Leadership values."

Just for curiosity's sake. How were people playing it before the FAQ?
Before the FAQ I certainly wouldn't have even considered anything but using the model's Ld and I didn't see it played any other way.

Kalandros
11-10-2012, 17:53
I'm thinking the issue was first because of all the annoying Skaven players wanting Strength in Numbers for EVERYTHING leadership-related, even 'unmodified' - they almost got their wish granted, almost.

Mr_Rose
11-10-2012, 18:21
That is kind of annoying. Skaven have low leadership for a reason, it's a part of why they're so cheap; allowing it to be boosted by SiN on every conceivable occasion Ld is required is too close to just giving them extra base Ld for me.

Maoriboy007
11-10-2012, 18:51
Well Mr. Maori boy at first I'd thought we'd settled the issue.
But then again how could my Bretonnian Damsel measure up to your wizard?
This hardly seems fair and I'm sure its not the intent of the rule.
In fact, once you see what's behind her robes.... no better not go there... but I'm sure you would get even more of an advantage.
A damsel that can win a **ick measuring contest? Most...frightening...damsel...ever...

I'm kind of on the fence with the whole issue. Allowing Ld substitution leads to abuse, hi Ld armies being able to easily pick off vulnerable models easily, but then it also allows you to somewhat protect models in the same way, although I suppose that is what magic resistance is supposed to be for. As far as I can tell the FaQ allows it, its just another one of thos e things GW needs to clarify in the next long awaited FaQ.

Wesser
11-10-2012, 22:39
Kinda bullying to refuse to play someone who is only playing by GWs own FAQs isn't it? Suck it up and play on, I say. It's not the first bad/silly ruling and it won't be the last but it's not enough to rage over IMO.

FAQ tells us nothing.

In fact I can't think of anywhere beyond Spirit Leech and some (much better explained) Lizardmen weapon that use the phrase "unmodified leadership".

Is there actually any such thing as an unmodified leadership test? Steadfast/Stubborn uses all kinds of modifiers. Even Spirit Leech isn't an LD test, so wth is the FAQ talking about anyway?

But I digress. Spirit Leech isn't an LD test or even a characteristics test. First because LD can't be a characteristics test (it would create confusion between LD char tests and regular LD tests) and second because you are comparing the values of two models instead of rolling against the characteristics of one model.


And if you wonder why Spirit Leech then uses "unmodified LD" then look at VC screams. They are affected by SiN, Inspiring Presence and Doom n Darkness (geesh the stuff used in the FAQ. Oh my), and it's obvious that the spell was worded like it was so it was clear that these things didnt affect it?


I'm genuinely surprised at people who'd claim this FAQ. Anyone can hack Warhammer rules to bits. It rly doesn't mean you should try

Spirit Leech is a special case in that regard. It's not a test of any kind, and there are no other examples of unmodified LD anywhere else.

That's why I wouldnt wanna play a person who'd claim this. He's basically inventing a rule out of the blue based on his interpretation of an unrelated piece of FAQ. It's an exploit and it's damn obvious one

DaemonReign
11-10-2012, 23:28
I'm increasingly finding myself in support of Wesser's position..

Blkc57
12-10-2012, 00:26
I suppose there are two ways to look at it, the FAQ refers only to leadership tests, or it refers to any usage of unmodified leadership.

I'll state my case again.

The ACTUAL QUESTION part of the question is "What is your unmodified leadership?" (by the way I don't believe the question was written by GW only submitted to them) The sentence about Leadership Tests seems to only be a statement of fact and doesn't seem to have any bearing on the answer. GW doesn't use the words "leadership test" anywhere in their answer, they only describe what is a model's "unmodified leadership".

jindianajonz
12-10-2012, 04:12
GW doesn't use the words "leadership test" anywhere in their answer, they only describe what is a model's "unmodified leadership".

Technically, this isn't true, and this is what makes the situation ambiguous.

Rather than define a "model's" unmodified leadership, this FAQ defines "your" unmodified leadership. It doesn't specify whether this applies to a unit or a model, and if you want to go a strictly RAW route, you could feasibly make an argument that this only applies to the general, which the BRB states is "a miniature representation of you on the field."

This FAQ would have been much more helpful if it was worded to refer to a model's unmodified leadership or a unit's unmodified leadership. My hunch is that it is supposed to apply only to units, and a models unmodified leadership is the stat given in its profile, but I'm not gonna try to claim that I know what the designers actually intended on this or any other poorly written ruling.

AMWOOD co
12-10-2012, 06:45
If I may, once again, I will demonstrate the relevance of the Characteristic test FAQ to this topic. Some will accuse me of 'making things up', but I am simply generalizing from an existing answer, so while it isn't written word for word, it can be acquired.

The generalization I speak of is that one can acquire the following principal from said text: when a value from a unit is called for, use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model. This general principal would apply to areas outside of tests, and we can already see an application of it in the Mindrazor spell. The debate as to whether a unit with mindrazor benefited from a hero's Ld was put to rest with the FAQ, but it set a strong precedence for GW's intent regarding such effects.

Oh, and decker_cky, how do you interpret Blade of Realities or the Greenskins old Skull Wand, which called for a model to make a Ld test on his own unmodified Ld? I'd like to know how you incorporate the FAQ with these items.

Smogg
12-10-2012, 07:21
The generalization I speak of is that one can acquire the following principal from said text: when a value from a unit is called for, use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model. This general principal would apply to areas outside of tests, and we can already see an application of it in the Mindrazor spell. The debate as to whether a unit with mindrazor benefited from a hero's Ld was put to rest with the FAQ, but it set a strong precedence for GW's intent regarding such effects.

Sure we can use a generalization. But then let's do it correctly:
For characteristics test: Use the best in the unit; when a value for a model is called for, use the best on the model
For leadership test: Always use the highest within the unit.
Assuming the same can be applied more generally when asked to use characterisitics outside tests, the precedence is that for leadership use the highest value within the unit where it for other characteristics would depend on if it was the unit or model that was in question.

However trying, as you do, to generalize characteristics test into leadeship is simply invalid since characteristics test and leadership tests differ on excatly the issue you are trying to generalize.

And thanks for bringing up "mindrazor". The issue was not resolved with a FAQ as you claim. It was an actual errata where the text was corrected to use the written leadership value in the models profile. The fact that they choose that wording rather than "Unmodified leadership" also indicate that Unmodified Leadership is not the same as the value in the models profile.


blkc57 got it right when he states that "What is your unmodified leadership?" is the question answered in the FAQ.

The question was:
When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

One could also ask:
When working out spells, sometimes you have to use your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

The answer would be the same. You can't possibly expect two different answers here. Ok some can. But that makes no sense to me.
Sometimes when working out A, you have to apply B. What is B?
Thats the structure of the question. The answer only deals with B. That is: "Unmodified Leadership".

Either way, weird that people insist on this applying only to tests.
If someone wants to sniper my LD 10 Vampire Lord using lvl1 death wizards with low leadership and insist on playing it that way, I certainly wont make a big deal out of it. But in the back of my head I will be thinking "One born every minute"

decker_cky
12-10-2012, 17:15
Oh, and decker_cky, how do you interpret Blade of Realities or the Greenskins old Skull Wand, which called for a model to make a Ld test on his own unmodified Ld? I'd like to know how you incorporate the FAQ with these items.

There is no real difference between your and your own, so those would just be unmodified leadership tests.

I think it's worth noting that simultaneous with releasing this FAQ question, GW developed a mechanic for using what people are arguing is the unmodified leadership of a model in the mindrazor errata which uses "the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile." Not definitive, but still more useful than attempting to generalize from a FAQ question on a totally different mechanic.

Blkc57
12-10-2012, 23:44
Technically, this isn't true, and this is what makes the situation ambiguous.

Rather than define a "model's" unmodified leadership, this FAQ defines "your" unmodified leadership. It doesn't specify whether this applies to a unit or a model, and if you want to go a strictly RAW route, you could feasibly make an argument that this only applies to the general, which the BRB states is "a miniature representation of you on the field."

This FAQ would have been much more helpful if it was worded to refer to a model's unmodified leadership or a unit's unmodified leadership. My hunch is that it is supposed to apply only to units, and a models unmodified leadership is the stat given in its profile, but I'm not gonna try to claim that I know what the designers actually intended on this or any other poorly written ruling.

Out of curiosity jindianajonz, what about the FAQ makes you think it only applies to units and not any model using unmodified leadership? I'm not accusing you of being wrong, but where does your hunch come from? Your can just as easily make reference to a model's AND a unit's therefore encompassing both situations, with the word "your" unmodified leadership.

jindianajonz
13-10-2012, 05:06
Out of curiosity jindianajonz, what about the FAQ makes you think it only applies to units and not any model using unmodified leadership? I'm not accusing you of being wrong, but where does your hunch come from? Your can just as easily make reference to a model's AND a unit's therefore encompassing both situations, with the word "your" unmodified leadership.

I just feel that having a unit's unmodified leadership equal the highest in the unit but a model's unmodified leadership equal it's own leadership stat just makes more sense. As people have pointed out, that's how Mindrazor is played, and conceptually it makes sense to me that this is how a true battle of the minds would work. I guess it's more the fact that if I were writing the game rules, that's how I'd have Spirit Leech work. But of course I'm not, so my hunch is pretty damn moot.

DaemonReign
13-10-2012, 08:09
+1.
It's obviously an individual model using it's leadership in the Spirit Leech roll-off.
GW's failed to hammer out a good 'answer', but 'unmodified' Leadership should be interpreted as being the 'greatest value' derived without outside influence.
So for a unit it's the Highest Leadership in the unit (no IP, HoldYourGround!, SiN, etcetera) and for a model it's simply the written value since (in this case) even 'another' LD-value in the unit then becomes "and outside modifyer".
And YES this is border-line 'making stuff up', and YES (just as with the currently discussed over-run from crumble issue) you can wrap yourself in the confused rules-text to derive 'another' answer - but the bottom line for me is, and as jindianajonz also says, my opinion falls where the resolution appears as the most intuitive.
RAW just seems to be a dead end.

Wesser
13-10-2012, 10:03
Bottom Line.

Was anyone, ANYONE, in doubt over how Spirit Leech worked before this hitty little piece of FAQ came out? No

Does That little piece of FAQ relate to Spirit Leech? No


Spirit Leech is a unique case and whoever did that FAQ-answer was only thinking LD-tests, and simply didnt think about this. Lets give GW some credit (at the rate these FAQs come out I'm not not sure why we should). It's rare even for them to take a crystal clear spell and turn it into an incomprehensible mush.

It is obvious the that FAQ answer didn't consider or want this.
It is damn silly for an "unmodified" spell effect to have one meaningless exception.

Heck, to even make the argument people have wring every word of the FAQ, never once taking the whole FAQ into account and the applying a good deal of interpretation.'

But heck, it's people own miniatures. Cheat if you want to

Blkc57
13-10-2012, 10:23
Bottom Line.

Does That little piece of FAQ relate to Spirit Leech? No


Spirit Leech is a unique case and whoever did that FAQ-answer was only thinking LD-tests, and simply didnt think about this.

It is obvious the that FAQ answer didn't consider or want this.

Heck, to even make the argument people have wring every word of the FAQ, never once taking the whole FAQ into account and the applying a good deal of interpretation.'

But heck, it's people own miniatures. Cheat if you want to

Uh? Not trying to be combative here Wesser, but you seem to be imposing your own opinion as fact an awful lot there. I agree with nothing in your post, and I can't help it. You state that whoever did the FAQ answer was only thinking ld test. Really? Is that why he never mentioned the words "leadership test"?

Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!

The Low King
13-10-2012, 10:58
Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.!

Its funny how both sides are saying exactly the same things about the other side (you also are treating your opinion as fact just as much as Wesser)



In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!

Thats because they work differently in every book and in every case are different. Kroxigores go in a unit differently from a slan wich is different from a screaming bell.

Wesser
13-10-2012, 13:10
Uh? Not trying to be combative here Wesser, but you seem to be imposing your own opinion as fact an awful lot there. I agree with nothing in your post, and I can't help it. You state that whoever did the FAQ answer was only thinking ld test. Really? Is that why he never mentioned the words "leadership test"?

Wring every word of the FAQ? We are the ones Wesser trying to state that the simple statement of fact at the introduction of the question has no bearing on the actual answer that was given, since GW only seems to answer the question of "what is your unmodified leadership?'"

Again I'm not trying to be curt with you and state things like "Cheat if you want to", but you seem to be inventing a context and placing imaginary restrictions on something GW laid out rather clearly, Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

In the end I am looking forward to the day GW retracts that question from the FAQ for the simple fact that if they ever wanted to define something as important as the game mechanic Unmodified Leadership they should have done it in the Errata section proper without complicating it with extraneous words and not in some out of the way place like a question in the back. Its the same as my complaint with their definition of "Mixed Unit", that exits in separated parts in about 3 or 4 Army Book FAQ's rather in the main rule book Errata proper. Wanna know the rules for a mixed unit? Well, get ready for a treasure hunt!

You talk about context as if you know what it is. Yet you ignore the part of the actual FAQ question that deals with leaderships tests and only use the part of the FAQ that byou want to.

Also Unmodified LD isnt an important mechanic. It is extremely rare.

Finally you ignore the whole question. Noone was in any doubt how to handle spirit leech before. Only because someone pulled a piece of FAQ and applied it to a totally different and unrelated context did the question even arise.

Bitten Black Sheep
13-10-2012, 21:30
blkc57 got it right when he states that "What is your unmodified leadership?" is the question answered in the FAQ.

The question was:
When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

One could also ask:
When working out spells, sometimes you have to use your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?

The answer would be the same. You can't possibly expect two different answers here. Ok some can. But that makes no sense to me.
Sometimes when working out A, you have to apply B. What is B?
Thats the structure of the question. The answer only deals with B. That is: "Unmodified Leadership".

Either way, weird that people insist on this applying only to tests.


When I go out on a date with my mother, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?
When I go out on a date with my girlfriend, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?

When I am cooking on the stove, I've been told to be careful as the stove is hot. What is hot?
When I gaze at the stars, I've been told they are hot. What is hot?

When I am out in the garden, I notice the weeds grow very fast. What is fast?
When I am out in the garden, I notice the cars travel past very fast. What is fast?

The answers are not the same. The first statement is a positioning statement so we have a context about the topic. Are we talking about the love for a mother, a lover, a child, an animal? We cannot answer the question meaningfully unless there is a context.

In this case the positioning statement says quite clearly "When taking a Leadership test,...". The answer to the question has to be seen in the context of the positioning statement otherwise the answer is taken out of context and is misleading.
We might also discover that we don't have a girlfiend anymore.

Kalandros
13-10-2012, 22:26
What is love?
Baby don't hurt me.
Don't hurt me.

No more~

Smogg
13-10-2012, 22:27
When I go out on a date with my mother, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?
When I go out on a date with my girlfriend, she likes to hear me tell her that I love her. What is love?

When I am cooking on the stove, I've been told to be careful as the stove is hot. What is hot?
When I gaze at the stars, I've been told they are hot. What is hot?

When I am out in the garden, I notice the weeds grow very fast. What is fast?
When I am out in the garden, I notice the cars travel past very fast. What is fast?

The answers are not the same. The first statement is a positioning statement so we have a context about the topic. Are we talking about the love for a mother, a lover, a child, an animal? We cannot answer the question meaningfully unless there is a context.

In this case the positioning statement says quite clearly "When taking a Leadership test,...". The answer to the question has to be seen in the context of the positioning statement otherwise the answer is taken out of context and is misleading.
We might also discover that we don't have a girlfiend anymore.

Funny way to try prove your point, but in all of your examples you use expressions as "love", "hot" and "fast" are extremely subjective by their nature, and almost meaningless without a more specific context. Where the FAQ is seeking to provide a fixed definition for something that is not meant to be subjective in any way. "Unmodified Leadership" and is already born with a context: Within Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

More relevant examples would be sentences of the same nature and within the context of warhammer.

When targeting an enemy model with a shooting attack, there has to be in Line of Sight. What is Line of Sight?

Some death magic spells cause direct damage. What is direct damage?

After failing an armor save, you can take a ward save. What is a ward save?

In all the the above the leading sentence is only that. But the question and the answer to follow would cover the term itself in a broader context. That is within warhammer fantasy battle.


I think my examples are far closer the the FAQ structure than your "love" and "hot" examples.
So yeah, even though the leading sentence mention Leadership tests, it does not limit the definition of "Unmodified Leadership" to leadership tests only.

Don't get me wrong. I would never use the above examples to "prove" that I am right in this debate. Just to point out, that your examples makes for a very weak argument as I can demonstrate the opposite, with better and more relevant examples.

Kalandros
13-10-2012, 22:28
was gonna edit to add more but hey, someone posted something before I could~

So anyway, other than Spirit Leech, where and what asks for Unmodified Leadership exactly?
What are the situations this FAQ refer to?
What leadership tests are asked to be on unmodified LD?

Smogg
13-10-2012, 22:38
was gonna edit to add more but hey, someone posted something before I could~

So anyway, other than Spirit Leech, where and what asks for Unmodified Leadership exactly?
What are the situations this FAQ refer to?
What leadership tests are asked to be on unmodified LD?

Steadfast or Unbreakable units making making a reform amid defeat P 55:
"the test is taken on the unit's unmodified Leadership"

decker_cky
14-10-2012, 01:53
Steadfast or Unbreakable units making making a reform amid defeat P 55:
"the test is taken on the unit's unmodified Leadership"

Page 54 – Steadfast
Change the first paragraph to “If a defeated unit has more
ranks than its enemy, it takes a Break test without applying the
difference in the combat result scores.” Change the fourth
paragraph to “Steadfast units don’t apply the difference in
combat result scores to Break tests.”

Page 60 – Steadfast
Change “[...]can use its unmodified Leadership[...]” to
“[...]doesn’t apply the difference in combat result scores[...]”.
Change both references to “[...] any enemy units [...]” to “[...]
all enemy units [...]”.

Lord Inquisitor
14-10-2012, 04:12
Yet it doesn't actually errata p55. So page 55 still reads "unmodified".

This wasn't a helpful example, Smogg. It just opens another can of worms, another RAW vs RAI debate.

Smogg
14-10-2012, 08:02
Yet it doesn't actually errata p55. So page 55 still reads "unmodified".

This wasn't a helpful example, Smogg. It just opens another can of worms, another RAW vs RAI debate.

Kalandros asked where Unmodified Leadership was used for leadership tests. I gave an answer.

The Low King
14-10-2012, 10:16
Funny way to try prove your point, but in all of your examples you use expressions as "love", "hot" and "fast" are extremely subjective by their nature, and almost meaningless without a more specific context. Where the FAQ is seeking to provide a fixed definition for something that is not meant to be subjective in any way. "Unmodified Leadership" and is already born with a context: Within Warhammer Fantasy Battle.


How about:

To be able to fire my missile weapon i must first check to see if i am in range, what is range?
To be able to charge something i must be in range, what is range?
To be able to use the wizard towers effect my wizard must be in range, what is range?

Because each would give a different answer

Smogg
14-10-2012, 10:30
No, the answer is:
In warhammer, distances are measured in inches with a tape meassure. You can always check the distance before you declare an action, such as charging or shooting.
This allows you to check whether your units are in range of their target before they launch an attack.

If you want more specific answers you need to write your questions like this:
To be able to fire my missile weapon i must first check to see if i am in range of the weapon, what is the range of the weapon?
To be able to charge something i must be in charge range, what is charge range?


Just as if unmodified leadership was different in different circumstances the FAQ would have asked:
What is a Leaderhip test against unmodified leadership?

and likely followed by:
What is unmodified leadership if used outside a Leadership Test?

But again, the whole idea that Unmodified Leadership should be one thing when applied in a leadership test, and another thing when applied outside a leadership test is overcomplicating the rules for no real game purpose. I would never imagine GW wanting to make that distinction.

The Low King
14-10-2012, 10:59
No, the answer is:
In warhammer, distances are measured in inches with a tape meassure. You can always check the distance before you declare an action, such as charging or shooting.
This allows you to check whether your units are in range of their target before they launch an attack.


that doesnt answer any of the questions because you still havent said what range is

Smogg
14-10-2012, 11:47
I am not gonna let you make this into a discussion where I somehow have to come up with a perfect warhammer definition for "range" in some kind of far our strawman example. "range" is explained on page 6. If you don't get it, I can't help you.

The Low King
14-10-2012, 12:19
I was illustrating the idea that the question changes the answer, because you dismissed Bitten Black Sheep's examples (previous page) on the basis that they were not relevent to warhammer.

You then responded with a supposedly 'universal' answer wich, as i pointed out, doesnt actually answer the question at all.

(i have no idea what you are on about at the end there though, why would i not know what range is?)

To further develope my point:

The answers:

To be able to fire my missile weapon i must first check to see if i am in range, what is range?
The range is the number given in the Weapons profile on page 90/91 or in the relevent army book for army specific weapons, it is the maximum distance the waepon can fire

To be able to charge something i must be in range, what is range?
The range is the lowest movement characteristic in the charging unit plus 2d6 inches, it is the maximum distance a unit can charge

To be able to use the wizard towers effect my wizard must be in range, what is range?
The range is 3" from the edge of the tower as specified on page 131, a single wizard within this distance may use the effect

Hence when looking at the FAQ:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

Is relevent only to "taking a Leadership test".

Had the question been just 'What is your unmodified leadership' then the answer would have been different.
Had the Question been 'When calculating the effects of things such as the Spirit Leech spell, sometimes a model has to use
its unmodified leadership. What is its unmodified leadership?' the answer would have been different.


Is that relevent to the discussion enough for you?

Smogg
14-10-2012, 12:53
1. You changed the question structure into a single sentence instead of two. That makes your examples invalid.

2. No. I don't believe for a second that your examples demonstrate a reasonable way to FAQ a question about range.

3. To make it into a FAQ, the quality of your examples would have to be raised to say either:

Q: To be able to fire my missile weapon i must first check to see if i am in range. How do I work out range?
A: Range is worked out by [insert some explanation of how to use the measuring tape and so on]

OR

Q: To be able to fire my missile weapon i must first check to see if i am in range. What is the range for weapons?
A: Range for weapons is found in the weapon profile and [insert some explanation how to apply the weapon range]

The only relevance your examples have to me, is that they don't follow the same structure as the FAQ for Unmodified Leadership, but when they are raised to the same quality as the FAQ, they actually do support my argumentation.

jindianajonz
14-10-2012, 15:02
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

Is relevent only to "taking a Leadership test".

Had the question been just 'What is your unmodified leadership' then the answer would have been different.
Had the Question been 'When calculating the effects of things such as the Spirit Leech spell, sometimes a model has to use
its unmodified leadership. What is its unmodified leadership?' the answer would have been different.


Is that relevent to the discussion enough for you?

There are two ways of looking at the question stated in the FAQ- Is the first sentence directly tied to the second, or is it just meaningless filler. I see FAQs all the time for unrelated products where the customer prefaces a question with unrelated background information, i.e. "The other day I came home after a long day at work and my computer was frozen. How do I hard reboot my computer?". The first sentence is totally inconsequential, it just serves as a segue into the second because often people (myself included) are afraid of appearing brusque and rude when asking a question.

You obviously believe the first sentence does have some bearing on the overall question; Smogg (and for the record, myself) do not. I can totally understand where you're coming from, but I think there's an assumption that the two sentences are linked and I try to avoid assumptions when possible. Had they worded the question part slightly differently (I.E. "In this situation, what is unmodified leadership?") then there clearly would have been a link between the two, but as it stands it's not unreasonable to believe that the first sentence is just meaningless background to set up the overall question.

On a related note, there's a question in the BRB "Certain spells, most notably from Regrowth from the Lore of Life, allow you to resurrect models that have been killed or even add extra models to a unit. What happens if some or all of the models added to a unit don't fit?" I think it is pretty clear that the first sentence is just to help you understand the concept that is being talked about; if there is some non-spell ability that brought units back to life I think the FAQ would be completely applicable. Additionally the question about removing models from the rear rank on page 6 of the BRB FAQ starts with a totally meaningless background sentence that could be removed entirely and still preserve the content of the question.

Zentdiam
17-10-2012, 08:37
This argument first came up in our group over skaven, but actually not because of SiN. The argument first came up because people were using the spell to instantly pop plague furnaces and screaming bells. People were shouting why would the Grey Seer not get to use his unmodified leadership against the spell and not just let the wizard pretty much destroy said bell with next to no leadership. We actually played it where unmodified leadership is the highest in the unit based off our previous conceptions about how leadership confers and other points. We all came to the conclusion that it was extremely silly that a furnace could be attacked by the spell and not have a ridden char use his leadership to fight it. When the faq came out, almost all of our group was happy about it as it stops this silly (in our opinion) combo from happening. I am just pointing out not everyone comes to the conclussion that Lord Inquisitor stated was the most obvious one, from the start. We figured this one out after much debate and discussion one night of hobbying.

I agree completely that the wording of the faq is ambiguous and needs to be defined better. The way it is written is that your can be taken as either pertaining to the unit or to an individual model. Since this is the only real place we hear about unmodified leadership it is sadly important. This is why we don't play RAW and instead discuss this before we have a game. We play RAG, Rules as Gentlemen, and come to an agreement over a hearty guffaw and mutual respect before the game starts. :P

belgarath97
17-10-2012, 23:38
I agree completely that the wording of the faq is ambiguous and needs to be defined better. The way it is written is that your can be taken as either pertaining to the unit or to an individual model. Since this is the only real place we hear about unmodified leadership it is sadly important. This is why we don't play RAW and instead discuss this before we have a game. We play RAG, Rules as Gentlemen, and come to an agreement over a hearty guffaw and mutual respect before the game starts. :P

+1

This is the only way to really handle this, talk about it before the game. The problem really is that both answers have merit both in the sense of interpretation and in the rules sense. I can justify both positions. I generally go with the more restrictive side of any argument, but in this case I think the side that unmodified leadership as mentioned in the FAQ applies all the time is probably the less ******* position. In my heart though I would prefer it to be the other way.

DaemonReign
18-10-2012, 04:19
[QUOTE=belgarath97;6472304I think the side that unmodified leadership as mentioned in the FAQ applies all the time is probably the less ******* position. In my heart though I would prefer it to be the other way.[/QUOTE]

*lol*
Well put.
I have to say I'm an ******* at heart too.. :p

belgarath97
18-10-2012, 04:55
Wow I guess I am a d**k. I just admitted it in public.

LOL

misomiso
21-10-2012, 22:32
It would probably be more balanced to allow look out sire for the lore of Death assasination spells. IMO anyway

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2012, 22:43
Uh, that would entirely neuter the Lore of Death. If you allowed look out sirs against the snipes you might as well call it the Lore of Purple Sun.

Harwammer
21-10-2012, 23:02
Don't forget Soulblight and Doomy darky! Those are two pretty sick spells. ;)