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Sigtyr
09-10-2012, 06:18
I am thinking about starting up a Night Lords army soon and I wanted to know what kind of list people are using for a Night Lords themed army. Are you going to be running a lot of 'tac' squads? are you going to mech up with rhinos? are you going to take chosen? Raptors or Warp Talons; or a mix of both?. Are you even going to be running the CSM codex or going with another dex (I find this unappealing). I know the new CSM codex did not give any goodies like drop pods or gunships, or any way to infiltrate or outflank (without Huron; IMO lame), but with what it does offer what are you going to take?

I was thinking of running a bunch of 'tac' squads in variety of numbers along with squads of raptors and possibly warp talons (though they seem very meh). I was thinking running almost no mech except maybe a dreadnought, MAYBE a landraider or 1-2 rhinos and if I feel crazy, I may go to Forgeworld for some gunships/ dreadclaws, but I feel kinda weird about using Forgeworld stuff. I think for heavy support I will be taking a few squads of havocs as they seem to fit the theme of Night Lords the best and I would avoid daemon engines for obvious reasons. I would probably throw in some Chosen because I like the models.

What are your thoughts?

Col. Dash
09-10-2012, 13:32
Blood angels for a fast attack spinned army with lots of jumpers. Space Wolves for a terminator heavy army.
Space Wolf base rules represent Night Lords far better than any other codex having Night Vision, plus they actually seem like Vets with Counter Attack(they learned something after 10000 years). They arent subject to having chaosy stuff anyway so you arent missing anything there, although minor chaos powers are easily represented by Sagas. They also have drop pods, which are heavily used by NL, and mighty sounding SCs which transfer to chaos really well.

NL are probably least well represented by the farce called a chaos codex.

Murphey
09-10-2012, 13:54
Honestly, I'm not going to do a Night Lords army. I was planning on doing one when this recent codex came out, but after reading it, there's no really fluffy or viable way to do it. (IMO) No way to make jump packers troops, no solid options for infiltrate, no options for stealth, no options for night vision. Raptors are pretty good, but warp talons are terrible, especially as they lack grenades. The lack of teleport homers really shuts down some good "shock and awe" tactics that could have been done in the Night Lords style.

Frankly, the current Chaos codex just doesn't do Night Lords (or a lot of legions for that matter) even passable. I'd suggest Blood Angels, since they have access to very solid jump packers. But truthfully, Night Lords are just not well represented in the current rulesets.

A.T.
09-10-2012, 14:05
Space Wolf base rules represent Night Lords far better than any other codex having Night VisionSpace wolves don't have night vision.

OgreBattle
09-10-2012, 14:12
was there a difference between Acute Senses and Nightvision?

A.T.
09-10-2012, 14:13
was there a difference between Acute Senses and Nightvision?Night vision negates nightfighting.
Acute senses rerolls outflanking direction.

Warp Talons are the obvious Night Lords choice. Fear, blindness, big claws...

Col. Dash
09-10-2012, 14:21
Well Acute Senses is the closest we can get to army wide night fighting without playing DE or Tau with BSFs.

ChrisMurray
09-10-2012, 14:41
If I was going to run NL I would be taking my inspiration from ADB Night Lord series.

So I would take:

HQ:
Chaos Lord TDA

Elites:
Terminator Squad

FA:
Warp talon squad
Raptor squad
Raptor Squad

Troops:
CSM Squad + Rhino
CSM Squad + Rhino
Cultist squad

HS:
Land raider (Lord + terminators go in here)

That would be the bare bones of it, I might swap the terminators for chosen, also add what you want in the extra slots depending on the size of the game and any wargear but it is the core of what I would use for NL using the Chaos codex.

A.T.
09-10-2012, 14:49
Well Acute Senses is the closest we can get to army wide night fighting without playing DE or Tau with BSFs.Have you considered taking cron allies, modelled as possessed cultists or dark mechanicus, with a solar pulse, nightmare shroud, etc? They are normal allies for chaos marines.

Aiwass
09-10-2012, 15:02
I'm not thinking in make a NL arm, but always liked they very much (not as much as my WE, but anyways, if some day I feel the need to make another CSM army almost sure it will be a NL one).

My thoughts about the army, first, is to stick with the codex. That's a personal opinion and I'm not against 'count as' codices. With that in mind...

Lord:

Count as Huron. Huron is not fluffy, but Huron is just a given name for a set of special rules. Make your own mini or customize the GW one, his rules fit with the 'infiltrate' style (Master of Deception), and overall it's a good warlord.

The troops, in my case would consist in some blobs of cultists (20 -ish) and 'tactical' squads. The shock & awe doctrine of the NL can be a little difficult to show with our dex, but some chosen and dreads can help. All vehicles with Dirge Casters and Killdozers, a couple of heldrakes, and if you like, one unit of raptors/talons or two (fast CC units with the fear thingy). Bikers are also pretty good as shock troops (units of 6) w/ special weapons (mostly plasma or melta). One mid sized unit of terminators (reaper AC or HF, CF, power mauls, couple of LCs) with a secondary lord (Dark Aura, MoK, Axe of Fury).

Marks: Slaanesh & Khorne. I know, they hate each other, but...

MoS give us +1I and it's Icon give us FNP. Nice on bikers and Termies. Maybe Raptors too, or CC units. Talons are not included here, because they can't take icons so, MoK for them. If you MoS your termies, MoS your secondary lord in TDA too and change the Axe of Furries for the Black Mace of Whatever.

MoK give us counter-attack and rage, extra attacks (always nice for choppy units). IoW is also pretty good for that with Furious charge.

All this can make a nice NL list imho. Hope it helps.

Max_Killfactor
09-10-2012, 16:16
I'm generally against people using "counts as" armies, but Night Lords are the exception. I feel that Blood Angels can make a list closer to their background than the current Chaos army book, especially since Night Lords aren't all that into the Chaos Gods or Daemons.

If I had Night Lords, I would be very tempted to use the Blood Angels rules.

Inquisitor Engel
09-10-2012, 16:18
I will be making a Heresy army and therefore get to make them however I want. :D

SideshowLucifer
09-10-2012, 16:22
Yeah, my poor nightlords just aren't playable currently outside of the Blood Angles codex, which still doesn't quite do it justice, but it's close. I'm hoping the next HH book will make NL's playable again.

Lord Damocles
09-10-2012, 16:45
Yeah, my poor nightlords just aren't playable currently outside of the Blood Angles codex, which still doesn't quite do it justice, but it's close.
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?

shakedown47
09-10-2012, 16:52
Yeah I'm curious why people prefer Blood Angels as well. I don't have the codex, but can Blood Angels do assault marines as troops? If not, then it's not like you could get more than the 3 fast attack choices anyway. I personally don't see why Night Lords can't be done using the new book; take 3 big units of raptors and give everyone batwing helmets and a blue paint job. Bam, Nightlords. It's not like Nightlords don't use tac-type squads, it's not like they don't own tanks, right? This idea that everyone needs to have unique rules to feel like precious special snowflakes is annoying.

Besides, if Nightlords could take Raptors as troops, would that fit the fluff? Wouldn't their raptors still just fit the role of anyone else's, namely shock troops and DSing tankbusters? I mean at best I could see something like raptors being a 1-2 choice per slot at the expense of taking anything with the daemon speciale rule, or something like that, and that could be handily taken care of in a WD article.

nagash66
09-10-2012, 16:53
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?

Dont go there man, if they man use codex orcs because it is fluffier and more true to the TAU spirit just nod along.

SideshowLucifer
09-10-2012, 16:54
Well after responding to another thread, I think I could represent the NL's a bit better now. Mostly use Havoks, Bikes, Chosen, and Chaos Marines, and unfortunately Huron as a NL stand-in Warlord for the infiltrate. The only thing I really miss is Night Vision and the Age of the Emperor ability they have "And They Shall Know Fear" which is perfectly executed for them.

A.T.
09-10-2012, 16:54
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?The 3.5 night lords where characterised as having :
-Night Sight (freebie)
-4 fast attack slots for bikes and raptors, 1 heavy support slot
-No 0-1 limit on raptors
-Addition of 'stealth' to the list of veteran skills available in the wargear section

Lord Damocles
09-10-2012, 16:56
Yeah I'm curious why people prefer Blood Angels as well. I don't have the codex, but can Blood Angels do assault marines as troops?
Blood Angels can take Assault squads as Troops (so can vanilla Marines with Korvydae), but Night Lords have never had the ability to take Raptors as Troops, so it's a moot point anyway.


The 3.5 night lords where characterised as having :
-Night Sight (freebie)
-4 fast attack slots for bikes and raptors, 1 heavy support slot
-No 0-1 limit on raptors
-Addition of 'stealth' to the list of veteran skills available in the wargear section
And Codex: Blood Angels represents any of that, how exactly?

You don't get Night Vision.
You don't even have access to Raptors.
You don't have access to Stealth outside of Scouts.

You can take more Assault Squads as pretend Raptors (nobody ever seems to take Bikes, oddly) and have more than three, but then you've lost access to all the Chaosy units you can take with Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

If the reason that your army 'just isn't playable' is that you have ten models you can't use in standard games, then... boo hoo..?


You could get closer to the 3.5 rules using the vanilla Marine Codex with Korvydae for Assault Squads as Troops, and the Raptors Chapter Master for Stealth instead of Combat Tactics...

SideshowLucifer
09-10-2012, 16:57
Dont go there man, if they man use codex orcs because it is fluffier and more true to the TAU spirit just nod along.

No, it really was a good question that made me think. It wasn't so much what I could do like the 3.5 dex, but how I could make the army feel. I think it was a lot of fast choices, especially outflanking, fast vehicles, and drop pods that made it feel faster. In the End though, the question made me realize that wasn't really a good answer either, and I did come up with a method to play them from the chaos dex.

loveless
09-10-2012, 16:57
The 3.5 night lords where characterised as having :
-Night Sight (freebie)
-4 fast attack slots for bikes and raptors, 1 heavy support slot
-No 0-1 limit on raptors
-Addition of 'stealth' to the list of veteran skills available in the wargear section

Which are all options of the Blood Angels!

...wait.

Shipmonkey
09-10-2012, 17:00
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?

Storm Ravens to represent Storm Eagles, Librarian Dreadnoughts to represent Sorcerers intombed in dreads, Jumpers as troops, Mephiston as a deamon prince minus all the drawbacks, apothocaires to represent drug dealings terror mongers, Death Company with jump packs to represent the dreaded and overpowered Chaos Furies, bat winged deep striking Land Raiders...

Much more fluffy. The world is my oyster with this list.

A.T.
09-10-2012, 17:15
You could get closer to the 3.5 rules using the vanilla Marine Codex with Korvydae for Assault Squads as Troops, and the Raptors Chapter Master for Stealth instead of Combat Tactics...Issoden and a biker captain with the vanilla dex is probably about as close as anything is going to get to 3.5 Night Lords outside of the chaos codex itself.

Eldred91
09-10-2012, 17:16
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?

Before I answer some background, my first real knowledge of the Night Lords came from Lord of the Night where the protagonist is the first Raptor so my army was initially based on a raptor company.

For me its the following:

Not only can I take Raptors/Assault Marines as troops but I can take a variety of different types of them. For your basic Raptor you have the Assault Marines, for your jump pack Chosen you have Vanguard and for your commanders body guard (Sahaal had a raptor command company) you can take Honour Guard. Admittedly the 6ed codex provides more options in this regard with Warp Talons but they do have problems, firstly I don't want my elite to be all daemony and secondly if I take a unit of Warp Talons that's one less unit of Raptors I can take.

This is the big attraction, now for why other things work.

The Librarian power Shield of Sanguinius seems very Night Lordy, imagine it as an envelope of darkness and its exactly the sort of thing a Night Lord might cast.

If you want to go that route you can drop pod, something the chaos list won't let you do.

Units which suffer from Red Thirst can be seen as those Night Lords who either came from Nostramo in its final days and are particularly psychotic or as those units which are slightly more chaos afflicted.

Mephiston is effectively a daemon prince should you want to go down that route.

I don't take Sanguinary Priests as I don't think they really fit, however for the compulsory one in the Honour Guard squad I justify the FC bubble as some sort of combat drug effect.

Scribe of Khorne
09-10-2012, 17:31
Night Lords to me, can be whatever you want really. I dont see them all Marked Khorne or whatever but if your a NL company thats trapped on a Daemon World for a few hundred thousand years (its the Warp!) then you can do whatever you want.

Heres mine.

Lord, Jump Pack, 2 LC, VotLW, Melta-Bomb, Sigil
Sorc, Mastery Level 2 (Telepathy)

9 CSM, Melta, CCW (8), VotLW, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Rhino
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

Heldrake
6 Warp Talons, VotLW, 2 Gift of Mutation
7 Bikers, Power Weapon, VotLW, Melta x 2

5 Havocs, 4 AC
5 Havocs, 4 AC

Hrogoff the Destructor
09-10-2012, 17:55
Just house rule it and let your opponent know that you are giving your unmarked marines the fear banner. I would find it really hard to believe anyone would adamantly oppose it (outside a tournament setting of course). No one in their right mind would ever claim it's broken or unfair.

Inquisitor Engel
09-10-2012, 18:54
Before I answer some background, my first real knowledge of the Night Lords came from Lord of the Night where the protagonist is the first Raptor so my army was initially based on a raptor company.

Let me stop you right there.

A fantastical claim by a ridiculous egotist. Don't take ANYTHING Sahaal says as fact. If you haven't already, read Aaron Dembsk-Bowden's Night Lords trilogy, along with the short stories "Savage Weapons" and "Prince of Crows," while they're pre-Heresy, they show the Night Lords as they really are and the use of Raptors is minmal, at best.

The idea that Sahaal invented Space Marine assault troops (because that's what Raptors started as, after all, and he was in stasis while they were getting all Bleeding-Eyes on everyone like they are today) is laughable.


Blood Angels can take Assault squads as Troops (so can vanilla Marines with Korvydae), but Night Lords have never had the ability to take Raptors as Troops, so it's a moot point anyway.

Indeed. The Night Lords have always been a fairly balanced army, even in the Index Astartes variant list.


You could get closer to the 3.5 rules using the vanilla Marine Codex with Korvydae for Assault Squads as Troops, and the Raptors Chapter Master for Stealth instead of Combat Tactics...

Not a bad idea. I plan on allowing a few options with my Heresy-era Night Lords. They'll be able to be repurposed to 40k with minimal effort and this sounds like just the thing. Or the Huron thing is kind of cool too as an option...

Eldred91
09-10-2012, 19:24
Let me stop you right there.

A fantastical claim by a ridiculous egotist. Don't take ANYTHING Sahaal says as fact. If you haven't already, read Aaron Dembsk-Bowden's Night Lords trilogy, along with the short stories "Savage Weapons" and "Prince of Crows," while they're pre-Heresy, they show the Night Lords as they really are and the use of Raptors is minmal, at best.

The idea that Sahaal invented Space Marine assault troops (because that's what Raptors started as, after all, and he was in stasis while they were getting all Bleeding-Eyes on everyone like they are today) is laughable.


I have read all of those and don't see how they back up what you are saying or disprove my statement.
While ADB has said that Sahaal (and for that matter Talos's) views of the nobility of the Night Lords is incorrect that doesn't mean everything says is a lie.

So the small warband of Vandred/Talos represents the formation of every Night Lords warband? This seems somewhat unlikely. Even if it did at the beginning of Blood Reaver there are thirty Raptors in the Bleeding Eyes aboard the Covenant and they are only part of the larger cult of which there are several, to me that sounds like a fairly large amount of Raptors and not something I would describe as minimal.

Whether or not Sahaal was genuinely the first Assault Marine doesn't ultimately matter, the fact that he makes such a claim implies that Raptors were something which were important to the VIII Legion.

Inquisitor Engel
09-10-2012, 19:55
I have read all of those and don't see how they back up what you are saying or disprove my statement.

The evens in Blood Reaver show multiple companies of Night Lords in battle together, which shows a lot of standard battle, sans Raptors. "Throne of Lies" also has much of the remnants of the XIII Legion show up on a single planet and there's nary a mention of Raptors in during the Legion's march to the Assassin Temple, most everyone is either footslogging or in a transport.


While ADB has said that Sahaal (and for that matter Talos's) views of the nobility of the Night Lords is incorrect that doesn't mean everything says is a lie.

Actually, he has said that pretty much everything Sahaal says is a lie. He even contacted Simon Spurrier to see if there was anything he wanted done with the character, SS never responded, and so Sahaal languishes. When he shows up, he'll be worse than any of the Tenth for betrayal and backstabbing (he abandoned his entire company once he had the Corona Nox and then did jack all with it). He makes Sevatar look like a paragon of virtue already.


So the small warband of Vandred/Talos represents the formation of every Night Lords warband? This seems somewhat unlikely. Even if it did at the beginning of Blood Reaver there are thirty Raptors in the Bleeding Eyes aboard the Covenant and they are only part of the larger cult of which there are several, to me that sounds like a fairly large amount of Raptors and not something I would describe as minimal.

Just because there's a large cult doesn't mean they're important to the Legion. In fact many of the Night Lords we meet (both on and off the Echo of Damnation), The Exalted included, look down upon the Bleeding Eyes for their squabbling, almost child-like nature and approach to battle. Again, back to "Throne of Lies," First Claw uses jump packs because they'd be best for the situation - to think this is just because the're part of The Tenth is silly, all of them are Heresy-era Astartes.


Whether or not Sahaal was genuinely the first Assault Marine doesn't ultimately matter, the fact that he makes such a claim implies that Raptors were something which were important to the VIII Legion.

But it does. Much of the perception of Night Lords was based on Sahaal's statements, from the mostly-defunct Index Astartes articles (supplanted by the Horus Heresy novels for the most part) to their description in the 3.5e Chaos Codex. For a long time, that was ALL WE HAD. Now we have much better written, much better thought out background for all of them.

Could there be a warband of Night Lords made up primarily of Raptors? Yes, totally. Is this typical? Evidence shows this not to be the case.

Scribe of Khorne
09-10-2012, 20:11
Could there be a warband of Night Lords made up primarily of Raptors? Yes, totally. Is this typical? Evidence shows this not to be the case.

This is exactly it. Its a huge universe/setting and one can really do whatever the hell they want to do. The HH books are probably going to show what should really have been the expectation all along. The Legions where composed of marines, tons and tons of marines on foot. Its kind of boring, but an 'accurate' force is going to be (imo) CSM squads spammed like crazy, just like loyalists should be Tacticals spammed like crazy to be 'fluffy'.

Its just awfully boring and doesnt always reflect the spirit of the legion/chapter, like say Fear being added to Raptors as an obvious nod to the Night Lords.

As a bit off topic it should be obvious that Kelly tried to appease the legion players while keeping it as...non-restrictive as possible.

Word Bearers - Apostle
Alpha Legion - Cultists + Huron count as.
Black Legion - Everything
WE - Zerkers, MoK
EC - Noise, MoS
DG - Plague, MoN (extra shout out to Typhus and Plague Zombies to throw a bone back to the 3.5 World Campaign)
TS - Rubrics, MoT
IW - Warpsmith
NL - Raptors, completely because of Fear.

You can of course however justify nearly anything. MoK? Why not, we had Uzas. Warpsmith? Forgefiend? Model it as a Great Crusade Mechanicum Cyborg/Robot. Simple.

Night Lords are a psychological force, first and foremost. That has a hard time getting transferred in-game so do whatever you want and have fun. :]

Inquisitor Engel
09-10-2012, 21:34
You can of course however justify nearly anything. MoK? Why not, we had Uzas. Warpsmith? Forgefiend? Model it as a Great Crusade Mechanicum Cyborg/Robot. Simple.

Yep! Part of the appeal of a Chaos list has been that you can do A LOT of different things. Like, tons. It's still one of the most flexible Codexes out there, people just need to use a little imagination.

Eldred91
09-10-2012, 22:01
The evens in Blood Reaver show multiple companies of Night Lords in battle together, which shows a lot of standard battle, sans Raptors. "Throne of Lies" also has much of the remnants of the XIII Legion show up on a single planet and there's nary a mention of Raptors in during the Legion's march to the Assassin Temple, most everyone is either footslogging or in a transport.

Care to jog my memory of when multiple companies of Night Lords are shown fighting together in Blood Reaver I honestly can't remember? As for Throne of Lies there are several reasons that Raptors might not be mentioned other than them simply not being present at all in the assembled fleet. One is the type of engagement represented in the audio drama, its a siege against little or no opposition. The Night Lords simply blow a massive hole in the walls and then walk inside. This leaves no real area for Raptors to do anything of note as there is no point them flying onto the walls because they are going to be blown up and jump packs are hardly renowned for their usefulness indoors. The second reason is that the 'long march' in the build up to that siege is symbolic, having a load of Raptors flitting about overhead would spoil that symbolism which provides both an in-universe and real world reason for them to be left out. In universe their commanders may have either confined them to the ground or simply left them aboard the ships. In the real world ADB may simply have left them out because they would have distracted from the concept of the long march up country and spoiled the imagery he was creating.

If we go back to LoN then we see Raptors are mentioned in significant numbers when Acerbus arrives and he is meant to have the largest Night Lords warband under his control.


Actually, he has said that pretty much everything Sahaal says is a lie. He even contacted Simon Spurrier to see if there was anything he wanted done with the character, SS never responded, and so Sahaal languishes. When he shows up, he'll be worse than any of the Tenth for betrayal and backstabbing (he abandoned his entire company once he had the Corona Nox and then did jack all with it). He makes Sevatar look like a paragon of virtue already.

Quote please? I can find a few saying Sahaal's view of the Emperor's betrayal was wrong but nothing saying he was lying about things such as being the first Raptor or having a Raptor command squad. In fact he even backs up the fact that Sahaal was appointed as a successor to the Night Haunter. I'm not trying to defend his good character in general its just I am not seeing the evidence to brand him as a pathological liar.


Just because there's a large cult doesn't mean they're important to the Legion. In fact many of the Night Lords we meet (both on and off the Echo of Damnation), The Exalted included, look down upon the Bleeding Eyes for their squabbling, almost child-like nature and approach to battle. Again, back to "Throne of Lies," First Claw uses jump packs because they'd be best for the situation - to think this is just because the're part of The Tenth is silly, all of them are Heresy-era Astartes.

Its not about their importance to the Legion its simply about how many of them there are. At the start of Blood Reaver the Exalted's Warband has more Raptors then are in a standard codex battle company. While this in itself doesn't prove that the Night Lords have a lot of Raptors it definitely can't be used as evidence against the fact and when combined with other supporting evidence such as the 3.5 codex and the fact that a Raptor is shown in their IA article it can quite reasonably be seen as suggestive of the fact.


But it does. Much of the perception of Night Lords was based on Sahaal's statements, from the mostly-defunct Index Astartes articles (supplanted by the Horus Heresy novels for the most part) to their description in the 3.5e Chaos Codex. For a long time, that was ALL WE HAD. Now we have much better written, much better thought out background for all of them.

Could there be a warband of Night Lords made up primarily of Raptors? Yes, totally. Is this typical? Evidence shows this not to be the case.

Again I don't think you've satisfactorily proved that Sahaal's statements with regards to Raptors are false. As for IA and the 3.5 codex's portrayals of the Night Lords I'm not seeing when they have been actively contradicted in this regard. The fact that Raptors appeared in Night Lords colours in the last chaos codex and that the Eavy Metal colour scheme for Warp Talons is that of the Night Lords would seem to be continued support for the idea that these units are something that could be conflated with the Legion.

I'm not arguing that all Night Lords are Raptors or even that the majority are just that based on the evidence given it is reasonable to suggest that the Night Lords have more Raptors than the other Legions. In a similar way the Blood Angels aren't all Assault Marines they are just more likely to field them in larger numbers than the other chapters.

Inquisitor Engel
10-10-2012, 00:51
So, let's get this out of the way first - You are free to use Raptors in your Night Lords first. Firstly, it's your army. Second, there are undoubtedly Raptor-heavy companies and warbands (the Raptor entry in the current Codex makes it clear that there were entire assault companies in the Legions) what I'm saying is that Sahaal isn't the reason for this and that what he says is typical Night Lords warfare in fact, isn't.


Care to jog my memory of when multiple companies of Night Lords are shown fighting together in Blood Reaver I honestly can't remember?

I apologize, I was referring to the Forge World battle where First Claw takes out a Titan, which is in "Soul Hunter" and not "Blood Reaver."


As for Throne of Lies there are several reasons that Raptors might not be mentioned other than them simply not being present at all in the assembled fleet. One is the type of engagement represented in the audio drama, its a siege against little or no opposition.

Which they do not know at the time. The march is initially planned out of caution against dropping in on a giant fortress filled with deadly assassin ladies.


The second reason is that the 'long march' in the build up to that siege is symbolic, having a load of Raptors flitting about overhead would spoil that symbolism which provides both an in-universe and real world reason for them to be left out.

The idea that an artifact so symbolic and important to the Legion that most of it shows up and then the Raptors (under your interpretation, the very heart and soul of Night Lords armies and tactics) get left behind is laughable. They can also walk plenty well, as the Bleeding Eyes do so.


If we go back to LoN then we see Raptors are mentioned in significant numbers when Acerbus arrives and he is meant to have the largest Night Lords warband under his control.

LotN was written at a time when there was a) little to no known background and b) Black Library was going in a very different direction than they are now. Simon Spurrier had TONS room to mould the Night Lords as he saw fit. He did so and it informed all works involving the Night Lords until AD-B came along and changed almost everything we know about them, for the better.


Quote please? I can find a few saying Sahaal's view of the Emperor's betrayal was wrong but nothing saying he was lying about things such as being the first Raptor or having a Raptor command squad.

It was in a PM conversation with me (which, yes, I know is awfully convenient of me, I admit) on here. Unfortunately Warseer seems to have purged my PM's for more than a year ago... I was actually on the side you're on now and I asked him "What about Sahaal, isn't he THAT important to the Legion?" to which his response was "Most of Sahaals claims are extreme exaggerations, if not outright lies. You invented assault marines? Sure you did buddy, sure you did. *pat pat*"

Warseer has, unfortunately, chased him away (and B&C is doing a great job of the same) so I don't suppose he'll jump in here.


Again I don't think you've satisfactorily proved that Sahaal's statements with regards to Raptors are false. As for IA and the 3.5 codex's portrayals of the Night Lords I'm not seeing when they have been actively contradicted in this regard.

The few times we've seen the Night Lords fight in the Heresy, they've all been primarily on foot. Hell, when the fight the Dark Angels on Tsagualsa, a planet with wide open skies and few buildings at all, there's not even a mention of Raptors or jump packs, even though this includes the First Company (of which presumably Sahaal was a part as he rises to take command of it when Sevatar dies, though this isn't necessarily the case)


The fact that Raptors appeared in Night Lords colours in the last chaos codex and that the Eavy Metal colour scheme for Warp Talons is that of the Night Lords would seem to be continued support for the idea that these units are something that could be conflated with the Legion.

There's also no mention of the Night Lords in the Warp Talon entry in the current Codex. Now, the Raptor entry says "The rank of the Night Lords, a Legion famous for its terror tactics attract a great many Raptors to its banner."

To me, that says that the Raptors have less to do with the Night Lords and more to do with Assault Marines in general. If Sahaal invented them, shouldn't almost all of them already BE Night Lords?

Sidenote - I do think it's interesting that the Warp Talons are painted in XIII Legion colour, but don't merit a mention in the Codex entry, but Raptors do and get painted in Black Legion colours. The 'Eavy Metal team doesn't always have the best grasp of the background, or depending on the painter, what units they're painting. They get given vague guidelines most of the time as they're painting stuff way before there might be solid rules or unit names. I keep trying to say that because the current 'Eavy Metal Imperial Fist Terminators don't have the red stripe means it's out as official, but no one seems to listen to me... ;)


I'm not arguing that all Night Lords are Raptors or even that the majority are just that based on the evidence given it is reasonable to suggest that the Night Lords have more Raptors than the other Legions. In a similar way the Blood Angels aren't all Assault Marines they are just more likely to field them in larger numbers than the other chapters.

We're kind of arguing the minutae of the the same side here. I come down firmly as a fan of Sevatar and a Sahaal hater. ;)

In either case, Ave Dominus Nox.

avatarofportent
10-10-2012, 01:34
How best to model the crypteks and warriors up to look all dark mechanicus. I like that idea for the solar pulse and nightmare shroud. Any got pics of conversions like this.

Firaxin
10-10-2012, 03:38
They can also walk plenty well, as the Bleeding Eyes do so.
Yeah, the Bleeding Eyes "walk" plenty well... :p

Harbinger
10-10-2012, 04:19
I am thinking about starting up a Night Lords army soon and I wanted to know what kind of list people are using for a Night Lords themed army. Are you going to be running a lot of 'tac' squads? are you going to mech up with rhinos? are you going to take chosen? Raptors or Warp Talons; or a mix of both?. Are you even going to be running the CSM codex or going with another dex (I find this unappealing). I know the new CSM codex did not give any goodies like drop pods or gunships, or any way to infiltrate or outflank (without Huron; IMO lame), but with what it does offer what are you going to take?

I was thinking of running a bunch of 'tac' squads in variety of numbers along with squads of raptors and possibly warp talons (though they seem very meh). I was thinking running almost no mech except maybe a dreadnought, MAYBE a landraider or 1-2 rhinos and if I feel crazy, I may go to Forgeworld for some gunships/ dreadclaws, but I feel kinda weird about using Forgeworld stuff. I think for heavy support I will be taking a few squads of havocs as they seem to fit the theme of Night Lords the best and I would avoid daemon engines for obvious reasons. I would probably throw in some Chosen because I like the models.

What are your thoughts?

While not a Night Lord player, I would say play up their terror tactics, which is what they are really known for in the background. I would use full fast attack choices to simulate the hit and run elements. Use deep striking units for the "we can strike anywhere" feel. While Raptors and Warp Talons may be the best represented, deep striking Terminators or Obliterators into an adequate charge position or fire lane would cause fear. Imagine being an IG commander, only to have Obliterators appear behind your supply lines and start vaporizing everything, or Terminators appearing in and redecorating your command center. Units with the Fear rule put it inot a game mechanic.

Depending on your modeling skills, I would add lots of corpse trophies to vehicles and CSM squads. Not only is it Chaos-y, but it would be unnerving to see a Rhino decorated with your squad-mates just before it crashe sinto your fighting position. It is my opinion that every Chaos army needs corpse trophies.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-10-2012, 18:18
As a bit off topic it should be obvious that Kelly tried to appease the legion players while keeping it as...non-restrictive as possible.

Word Bearers - Apostle
Alpha Legion - Cultists + Huron count as.
Black Legion - Everything
WE - Zerkers, MoK
EC - Noise, MoS
DG - Plague, MoN (extra shout out to Typhus and Plague Zombies to throw a bone back to the 3.5 World Campaign)
TS - Rubrics, MoT
IW - Warpsmith
NL - Raptors, completely because of Fear.


Kelly did NOT try to appease AL players with Cultists. Just look at books like the Dark Disciple series, the Honsou series, and the Night Lords series as examples. Everyone of them has cultists of some form, ranging from direct servants of the Legion in question, to what we would think as actual "cultists".

Furthermore, it's well established that the Word Bearers use your definition of cultists just as often as AL does, arguably even more so. If anything, the cultists in the codex are to represent this wide range of roles played by non-CSM entities, but if we must focus our view, it's more of a nod to the WB than it is the AL. The nod to the AL existed in the last book, with Chosen having the Infiltrate USR as standard.

Dryad
11-10-2012, 18:48
Night Lords are a psychological force, first and foremost. That has a hard time getting transferred in-game so do whatever you want and have fun. :]

This is the only sentence that needs to be in this whole thread.

Any attempt to make a fluffy Night Lords list just ends up being themed around some game mechanic or unit type. Nothing in the game of 40k captures the elements we get from literature. Enjoy the literature, love the VIII Legion, but just play the game with blue and gold marines of whatever configuration you have fun with.

Inquisitor Engel
11-10-2012, 19:45
If anything, the cultists in the codex are to represent this wide range of roles played by non-CSM entities

They're the Chaos version of Inquisition Storm Troopers (who can just as easily be arbites, PDF, guard etc.) Cultists can be rioting civilians, cultists, poorly-armed servitors sent into battle to defend their forge, they can even be plague zombies. They can be a lot of different things. Embrace it.

What happened to Chaos players being the ones who were into modeling as much as possible to make things fit their background? When did we get so spoiled?

Sexiest_hero
11-10-2012, 20:33
The Chaos codex is just fine for Night lords. That said so is the blood angels list. I use both. As for Aaron Dembsk-Bowden, he seems to take a sick pleasure in crapping on another man's work, simply because people loved "lord of the night". If I was the author of Lord of the night I wouldn't respond to ADB either.

loveless
11-10-2012, 20:47
If I was the author of Lord of the night I wouldn't respond to ADB either.

I wouldn't respond to him until he stopped wearing that ridiculous hat...or is that part of ADB's head? I've never seen him without it.

Inquisitor Engel
11-10-2012, 21:33
If I was the author of Lord of the night I wouldn't respond to ADB either.

Professional courtesy isn't dead I guess. :rolleyes:

ADB tried contacting Si Spurrier prior to writing "Soul Hunter." Spurrier never responded and so Sahaal had to be written out and so he was. Simple as that.

Scribe of Khorne
11-10-2012, 21:58
The Chaos codex is just fine for Night lords. That said so is the blood angels list. I use both. As for Aaron Dembsk-Bowden, he seems to take a sick pleasure in crapping on another man's work, simply because people loved "lord of the night". If I was the author of Lord of the night I wouldn't respond to ADB either.

Really? I cant find that any further from the mark. ADB seems to go to lengths to find ways of fitting in small hints, nods, and direct quotes from past works to be as accurate as possible. If an author doesnt respond to his requests to fit things in, whats he supposed to do? Retcon it?

If I've missed some place where he was 'crapping on another man's work' feel free to provide a link, 'pics or it didnt happen' kind of thing.

DuskRaider
11-10-2012, 22:30
You uhh... know you can take an Icon in the new codex that gives you Fear, right?

Gutlord Grom
11-10-2012, 22:37
If I've missed some place where he was 'crapping on another man's work' feel free to provide a link, 'pics or it didnt happen' kind of thing.

Really, the only real slight against Lord of Night would be that at one point, someone points out just because Sahaal was probably promised the Corona Nox doesn't make him a special snowflake. It's insinuated lot Night Lords leaders can whip out some artifact with a tangential relation to their Primarch and claim command of the Legion. And to be fair, that's a really good point.

Sahaal missed ten thousand years (or a few hundred or fifty thousand depending on point of view). He's really out of the loop: his horror when he sees Krieg Acerbus, much less the Night Lords themselves, points to him really not understanding just how far the Legion has passed him by. He may be a great warrior, but he's a relic and a prideful loudmouth. And as far as everyone in the Night Lords trilogy, everyone still thinks Sahaal is dead.

As to my Night Lords, and the purpose of this thread: I'm seriously considering running a foot list with a core of cheap Marines and Havocs on foot led by a counts-as Huron. The primary support comes in the form of an Al' Rahem platoon supported by outflanking Terminator/CSM squads, and DS Raptors.

Odin
11-10-2012, 22:47
Blood Angels can take Assault squads as Troops (so can vanilla Marines with Korvydae), but Night Lords have never had the ability to take Raptors as Troops, so it's a moot point anyway.


Quite. As far as I'm aware, Night Lords does not equal army full of jump packs. Just an army which is very mobile (CSMs in Rhinos) and which takes the max number of fast attack choices (raptors, bikes and now warp talons).

Jericho
11-10-2012, 22:52
As to my Night Lords, and the purpose of this thread: I'm seriously considering running a foot list with a core of cheap Marines and Havocs on foot led by a counts-as Huron. The primary support comes in the form of an Al' Rahem platoon supported by outflanking Terminator/CSM squads, and DS Raptors.

I've been saying since the book came out that a little bit of imagination will make the Chaos list pop for the non-marked legions. Huron-based infantry list with Al'Rahem as backup really seems to do the trick nicely...

Side note: Met ADB the other day at the Chestermere Black Library Expo, cool guy :) Didn't get as much time with him as I would have liked (had way more time to talk with Graham, Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe) but hey, not a bad weekend either way.

Scribe of Khorne
11-10-2012, 22:54
You uhh... know you can take an Icon in the new codex that gives you Fear, right?

At the cost of also taking MoN? I'll pass on that option..;)

DuskRaider
11-10-2012, 22:59
Well people want to play a close to fluff Night Lords army. Get your fear, take Blackheart as your counts-as HQ for infiltrating hijinx (his stats are good too, especially for the price), and you still have everything else to play with. Honestly, you CAN play a Night Lords army with the book, but if people just looking for a more powerful book they should probably just go ahead and say it.

Jericho
11-10-2012, 23:11
I think people are saying it :p

If GW isn't going to do 9+ separate books for Chaos Marines, then getting all the benefits of a standalone codex simply isn't gonna happen in any of our lifetimes. The book's got a lot of very respectable options so I can't see what the problem is. If you check the poll elsewhere on Warseer, the most common grading of the book was 8/10 so the overall feeling is pretty positive with the new book.

Scribe of Khorne
11-10-2012, 23:15
Well people want to play a close to fluff Night Lords army. Get your fear, take Blackheart as your counts-as HQ for infiltrating hijinx (his stats are good too, especially for the price), and you still have everything else to play with. Honestly, you CAN play a Night Lords army with the book, but if people just looking for a more powerful book they should probably just go ahead and say it.

Oh I totally agree, as I said a few times I have found ways, and there are multiple of doing what one would want.

skorczeny
11-10-2012, 23:24
Honestly, you CAN play a Night Lords army with the book, but if people just looking for a more powerful book they should probably just go ahead and say it.

Agreed. I think people are responding with night lords as 'I want to play with jump packs and still be able to win' . So looking at the blood angels dex vs chaos dex, its easy to go blood angels.

That said, night lords SHOULD use the chaos dex. Bikes, raptors, warp talons, supported by havoks and terminators are perfect.

Minsc
11-10-2012, 23:50
Nightlords is perfectly doable with the new codex. Fear is the "new" NL-thing (wasn't it always?), and we have plenty of it.
Use all your FA slots for Raptors (fear), and if you want, Bikes and/or Warptalons. New icon-bonus in close combat = Daemonic Visage from 3.5.
Use Huron as a count-as NL-Lord with his infiltrate, and another HQ with a jumppack.
CSM in Rhinos unless you infiltrate them. Maulerfiends for another fast and fearcasuing unit.
Etc. etc.

I'm inclined to agree that most NL-players that use the BA-codex as count-as simply want a more powerful army. Theme/fluffwise, the new chaos codex works at least as good as the BA codex, if not better.

Freakiq
12-10-2012, 00:22
Until Chaos can take Drop Pods or similar it'll be counts as BA or more likely a pass from me.

Spare Change
12-10-2012, 01:31
Until Chaos can take Drop Pods or similar it'll be counts as BA or more likely a pass from me.

Why not try some Forgeworld dreadclaws out, with the new book?

AlphariusOmegon20
12-10-2012, 01:57
Why not try some Forgeworld dreadclaws out, with the new book?

A.) the model is expensive, so multiples are out. Most people can't afford one, much less 3 or more. (I'm one of the few that can.)
B.) the model is a royal pain to put together.
C.) The model, after it is built, is extremely unstable, and is akin to asking for it to get broken.

I've built 3 so far, and after the third one, I swore I wouldn't build another ever again, for myself or anyone else for that matter, even if they paid me to.

Dreadclaws, unfortunately, are not the way to go there.

Gutlord Grom
12-10-2012, 02:02
Well, if cost is the issue, is there anything stopping a person from just buying a C: SM Drop pod, doing some conversion work to make it Chaos worthy, and say it's a counts as Dreadclaw?

Spare Change
12-10-2012, 02:04
Well, if cost is the issue, is there anything stopping a person from just buying a C: SM Drop pod, doing some conversion work to make it Chaos worthy, and say its a counts as Dreadclaw?

That's exactly what I was thinking. There's nothing stopping people from making their own, or buying C:SM pods, and tweaking them to look more Chaotic.

SideshowLucifer
12-10-2012, 03:22
Nightlords is perfectly doable with the new codex. Fear is the "new" NL-thing (wasn't it always?), and we have plenty of it.
Use all your FA slots for Raptors (fear), and if you want, Bikes and/or Warptalons. New icon-bonus in close combat = Daemonic Visage from 3.5.
Use Huron as a count-as NL-Lord with his infiltrate, and another HQ with a jumppack.
CSM in Rhinos unless you infiltrate them. Maulerfiends for another fast and fearcasuing unit.
Etc. etc.

I'm inclined to agree that most NL-players that use the BA-codex as count-as simply want a more powerful army. Theme/fluffwise, the new chaos codex works at least as good as the BA codex, if not better.

No way in hell that Night Lords should use Daemon Engines. Huron and the bikes are good, but otherwise, its pretty much just standard stuff, Havoks and Marines.

Inquisitor Shego
12-10-2012, 03:40
Night Lords are all about fear. As the new codex is about as scary as Nyan Cat it makes sense not to use it :p

m1acca1551
12-10-2012, 03:59
I will run my NL army from the new chaos dex understanding that im choosing a fluffy army not a competitive list and simply deal with it. Im not going to whine and moan that NL arent well represented in the new book, and try to fashion some lie in order for me to cop out and use BA/SW dexes so i can field a powerfull and call it fluffy.

Seriously?? NL can be represented in a manner of ways from footslogging ground troops backed up by long range fire support, armoured fist using rhinos/land raiders, to the shock and awe by using terminators, raptors, warp talons etc and yes by using hurons rules you can infiltrate :) plenty of ways of using the chaos dex easily, without resorting to running to a more powerfull dex and saying " NL arent OP like i want them to be, so here is NL using SW rules"

Happy days to be a "loyal" CSM

OgreBattle
12-10-2012, 04:56
Out of morbid curiosity, what does the Blood Angel list let you do which can't be represented using the Chaos Marine list, and which you could presumably do when they had their own unique rules (3.5 ed.)?

Yeah I'm curious why people prefer Blood Angels as well. I don't have the codex, but can Blood Angels do assault marines as troops?

I will run my NL army from the new chaos dex understanding that im choosing a fluffy army



There are two things Nightlords are known for
-The first is loving terror tactics. That is what their fluff is all about.
-The 2nd isn't explicitly stated, but people just love giving them jump packs for whatever reason
-Bonus: looks down on worshippers of Chaos, relatively free of the taint of mutation

154702

Here's what Codex: Red Space Marines offers

-HQ that inflicts super-fear on an enemy HQ
-Fear causing psychic powers for their Psyker
-Fear causing elite jump packers
-Jump pack troops (don't cause fear though, but have a 1 in 6 chance of going on a bloody killing spree)
-All jump packers have increased reliability for deepstriking and scatter less.


Here's what Codex: Spikey Marines offers
-HQ has a chance of causing fear (cool, he also has a chance of setting people on fire though), Huron can guarantee infiltrate (though isn't that more an Alpha Legion thing?)
-Fear in FA: Raptors. Excellent choice.
-Super Daemon Jump packers: Strangely they do not cause 'fear', unlike their less tainted brethren... but takes up same slot as Raptors.
-Fear in Troops: if you become a bloated rotting sack first, then pick up a stick, but don't drop the stick!
-Mandatory challenges: did captain Lysander just challenge your sgt? Sorry, your cynical mercenary 'I only fight for gains and look down on worshippers' bat-marine MUST ACCEPT FOR TEH HONOR OF CHAOS
-Mandatory Mutation: Your night lords sgt. walloped a tau shasui and then turned into a spawn, because.
-Robot Chaos Dinosaurs: Ok this is actually pretty cool.

Raptors are perfect as fear causing jump packers, but the 'Champions of Chaos' rule just doesn't fit with the Night Lords theme of 'preying on the weak' and 'skeptical of the gods'

If I see dark blue bat-marines on the table though, I know they are Nightlords and I will be fighting Nightlords, the codex rules are not so important. This is a tabletop miniatures battle game, if rules were all that mattered I'd just play Vassal online.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2012, 05:53
Personally, if people can justify their counts-as with decent fluff, I'm okay with whatever they want to do. And if I'm not okay with it I just keep it to myself- I'm not going to turn down a game because your background offends me. I'll debate it online if the spirit takes me, but you know.

Me, what I'm going to be doing is having a few Night Lord splinters allied to my warband, all in elite units like Raptors, Terminators, and Chosen. They're going to be of the more antitheist bent, with not as much Chaos iconography as grisly trophies and savage pride. I'll also be eventually modeling some Cultists using citizen-like models with bomb collars 'led' by the Night Lords' favored slaves (like Octavia in ADB's works, shame he left Warseer in my absence by the way). In addition, I'll not be fielding them alongside my Word Bearers splinter, or in large games they'll be far apart on the table... just want to represent the ideological difference. Unless I can have them compete and beat each other in-game at killing stuff, to spite one another.

Of course, I could justify using a great many units in the game with counts-as.

Far as representing them on-table, yeah, speed helps, but the big thing is fear. And not necessarily with a capital letter. Frankly, I feel that the dev team is wasting potential that they had with Chapter Tactics- make it not so SC-centric and I'd love it. There's otherwise little manner to facilitate such a reaction in your opponent- he's not going to be scared of models, I hope- or his army- while Morale is gaining ground, it's still hardly as important a factor as it should be. Mostly it comes down to modeling and very imaginative counts-as.

Wanton brutality helps... but the dice gods should help you with that.

Ave Dominus Nox, brothers.

Haunter!
12-10-2012, 06:28
-Super Daemon Jump packers: Strangely they do not cause 'fear', unlike their less tainted brethren... but takes up same slot as Raptors.


Warp Talons are Daemons, Fear is folded into that just like their invuln save.

I'm still toying with ideas for my Night Lords, but I like the idea of having a Telepathy Sorc scaring people and having a LC/PF Lord with a jump pack in a Raptor squad. The bulk of the army would be squads of CSMs with their champions having LCs. I like lightning claws...

Also looking at having Mechanicum allies using the Necron codex.

Lord Damocles
12-10-2012, 09:37
No way in hell that Night Lords should use Daemon Engines.
Why not? They could take the only daemon engine available in the Codex when they had their own super-special be-all-and-end-all Legion rules. They were noted as using limited numbers of daemons (mostly furies), they have possessed and daemon princes...

SideshowLucifer
12-10-2012, 13:00
Why not? They could take the only daemon engine available in the Codex when they had their own super-special be-all-and-end-all Legion rules. They were noted as using limited numbers of daemons (mostly furies), they have possessed and daemon princes...

Well first, I detest the idea of using any daemons with NL's from their fluff. Yes, they have the occassional daemon prince, but honestly, I prefer to just keep daemons out of a NL's army all together. That means, no DP, no possessed, no spawn, and none of the daemon engines or the new jump infantry. The whole appeal of the NL's to me is that they don't follow the chaos gods and still detest taint and such.

OgreBattle
12-10-2012, 13:30
That means, no DP, no possessed, no spawn, and none of the daemon engines or the new jump infantry. The whole appeal of the NL's to me is that they don't follow the chaos gods and still detest taint and such.

What are you going to do when the Champions of Chaos rule mutates your Nightlord champion?

dtjunkie19
12-10-2012, 13:54
What are you going to do when the Champions of Chaos rule mutates your Nightlord champion?

Use a different codex

Aiwass
12-10-2012, 13:54
Why not possessed? You don't need to use the actual models. You can model them as a crazy close combat space marines with huge weapons.

Col. Dash
12-10-2012, 14:20
The whole furies flocking to them was an older thing to try and justify Furies. It hasnt been said before that entry and it hasnt been said since. As much as a purist as I am, I thought it was kinda cool actually. For me its not power, its having a force org with characters and abilities that actually reflect the Night Lords and chaos codex just iusnt cutting it. I Doubt I am a power gamer when I am paying massive points for a unit to justify bringing Vanguard vets with twin lightning claws so I can have Warp Talons in my army. Plus they have drop pods.

Oh Dreadclaws are very easy to build, simply glue the big fins upside down. It takes a little tiny bit of cutting and its obvious where to do it to make it fit. I have fielded mine with my Nightwing(SW terminator force) and people didnt know they were not FW dreadclaws.

DuskRaider
12-10-2012, 14:50
Wow, seriously? People will come up with any justification to use rules they perceive as better. Night Lords don't all loathe Chaos. In fact, many have embraced it in the 10,000 years since the Heresy. Just because you take Mark of Nurgle to get the Fear Icon doesn't mean you need to model them as bloated and rotting. Try using that brain of yours and come up with a counts-as option. I mean, you did it to use a book that doesn't represent your army any better than the C:CSM.

Dryad
12-10-2012, 15:57
*facepalm*

I love it when people claim that Night Lords loath Chaos and that a Night Lords player can't go anywhere near a pointy star or else they would be arrested for fluff violations.

A lot of people seem to base thier perceptions of the Legion (what's left of it) on the claims of Talos and Sahaal, who are both openly identified as being radical purists who want to preserve their Legions philosophy. However, I think it is quite clearly written that they are both minorities when it comes to their causes, and that these views are purely just part of the narrative and the backbone of a great storyline. Thay are ancient heroes fighting in a time of change, hoping to fight for their father's life's work. Awesome storyline for a protagonist!

But, I think it is quite clear that the 41st Millenium Night Lords are pretty much just Chaos Space Marines (with a few of their old tricks, of course).

Put it this way. Talos and Sahaal are those guys that still wear a Denim jacket, drive a 1985 Mustang, and pound Def Leppard on their cassette decks.

What about the rest of First Claw, or the rest of the whole Legion for that matter? Sure, they are very Night Lordy, but are they not Chaos'd up a little bit from, y'know... killing lots of innocent people, hanging out in the Warp, and slowly going insane from not really having a glorified cause anymore?

Does Uzas not have a Mark of Khorne?
Does Cyrion not have a Mark of Slaanesh?

I just wish people would see the bigger picture and understand that there really shouldn't be huge restrictions on a Night Lords army on the tabletop. Maybe do one unit that has a purist cause if you need that to sleep at night, but the rest of your army should really just look like a Chaos Space Marines army. This is the time of Warbands people; this is the 41st Millenium.

Save your dreams of making a purist Night Lords army for when the next Horus Heresy book (Massacre) comes out. Then make a 30k army without a single pointy star in it.

Col. Dash
12-10-2012, 16:18
Actually it has been since the beginning of the Legion fluff that the Night Lords looked down on anyone who worshipped chaos. Spurrier and ADB didnt invent that part, they have always used it as a tool or not at all. You might see an individual here and there, but for the most part, the NLs have a fairly hostile working relationship with chaos powers.

Theocracity
12-10-2012, 16:35
I always interpreted that as a difference between using the power of Chaos and venerating it. They're not Word Bearers or a Cult Legion, but they still make use of the powers of the Warp to accomplish their goals (while being affected by its downsides).

Col. Dash
12-10-2012, 18:21
Not often. Them using chaos is the exception not the rule and likely they would look down on those who need a crutch like that as well.

Aiwass
12-10-2012, 18:55
The fluff is writen. Anyone is free to interpretate it in the way they like, it's their army and they payed for it. My future NL won't allow chaos worship, daemons and that all. But there are always ways to encircle some things.

Warp Talons are daemons, but that can mean whatever you want. Be that they're space marine ninjas with smoke-blind grenades or just guys hanged with meth and flashlights. Whatever. Daemon engines are in the same case. So, with proper modelling and conversion almost anything can be used. Of course that we just are talking about game-mechanics, not the fluff, but that mechanics, can be bend to be adapted to almost every playstyle, provided that de book have the proper options (i.e. No drop pods in chaos dex).

Same thing with marks. As I said in other thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354796-Night-Lords-attempt-2000&p=6464353&viewfull=1#post6464353) marks can be interpretaded:



Khorne: Psychopathy. Most units in the army.
Slaanesh: Combat drugs. Very hanged marines, specialy any unit tunned up by Fabius Bile or crazy motards/bike unit.
Nurgle: (that is the most difficult to justify to me) Will to kill/It will not die (like Jason Voorhees style dudes, who cause fear (with the IoD) maybe?). Terminators and obliterators only.
Tzeentch: Force fields/energy shields. Terminators and obliterators only. And, maybe, Warp Talons, if some day I'll give them a go.


So, in the end, it's all about how you interpret the fluff and the rules.

Inquisitor Engel
12-10-2012, 20:31
Same thing with marks. As I said in other thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354796-Night-Lords-attempt-2000&p=6464353&viewfull=1#post6464353) marks can be interpretaded:

Oh yes. Firaxin has really made my day with this gem (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354754-Night-Lords-and-Chaos-Marks) for using the Mark of Nurgle for them in 40k Background:


From a gameplay perspective, the +Toughness/Feel No Pain might be a bit hard to explain, but there are many mechanics of nurgle that would be very fluffy for a Night Lord's army.
Blight grenades (assault grenades to represent their excellent ambushing skills, defensive grenades to represent their ability to fade back into the shadows/run away),
Shrouding (you can explain it in a way other than it being caused by swarms of flies too thick to see through, maybe it's a Heresy-era "Stealth/Shadow/Night Field" tech relic?),
Fear-causing Icons, etc...
Poisoned weapons can be explained as not killy-poison, but tranquilizer-type like Dark Eldar splinter weapons so the Night Lords can gather them all up at the end of the battle, bring them back to their ship/bat cave and spend hours/days/weeks torturing them :D

I kind of love it. All it took someone was a little imagination. Saying you can't use the Chaos Codex to properly represent a Night Lords army now has zero justification.

SideshowLucifer
13-10-2012, 01:00
By that reasoning I could use the nids to make a nightlords army too. That doesn't make it a desirable proposition to undertake.

Aiwass
13-10-2012, 01:05
Oh yes. Firaxin has really made my day with this gem (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354754-Night-Lords-and-Chaos-Marks) for using the Mark of Nurgle for them in 40k Background:

I kind of love it. All it took someone was a little imagination. Saying you can't use the Chaos Codex to properly represent a Night Lords army now has zero justification.

Totally agree. It's a very nice, and original, justification ^_^

By that reasoning I could use the nids to make a nightlords army too. That doesn't make it a desirable proposition to undertake.

Explain.

SideshowLucifer
13-10-2012, 04:13
I mean people keep saying what we can do if we rationalize it. Hell, if I rationalize it, I could play anything from nearly any codex. The point is at the costs this game demands, some of us wanted official rules for things rather than settling, which some feel we have to do.
I've said time again I could play a NL's army out of the codex, lots of bikes, lots of chosen, and lots of marines. That doesn't make it an interesting army to play because it lacks flavor and variety. Sure I could take marks and daemons and such, but that is not NL's to me.

ogretyrant
13-10-2012, 06:57
I most probably going to get my head bitten of by you guys but hey here I go. IMHO a power armoured miniature could be represented by any power armoured codex, the only difference is aesthetics. I can paint and convert my minis any way I chose, as long as I use the correct weapons and equipment (I.e that powered armoured model has a missile launcher, that's clearly a terminator over there wielding a heavy flamer etc) and you let your opponent know before the game what codex you are using then there should not be a problem right? A model in power armour is still a model in power armour no matter if it is pink, green, blue or whatever colour and whether it has spikey bits attached to it or not it is still a model in power armour.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

OgreBattle
13-10-2012, 07:21
So, in the end, it's all about how you interpret the fluff and the rules.

Actually the +1 toughness mark is easy to justify: "he has a shield, it gives him +1 toughness"
Grab one of those Vampire or Dark Elf shields that looks like a bat-wing.

...though now you have an entirely new kind of unit. Night lords with shields.

Firaxin
13-10-2012, 13:05
A lot of people seem to base thier perceptions of the Legion (what's left of it) on the claims of Talos and Sahaal, who are both openly identified as being radical purists who want to preserve their Legions philosophy. However, I think it is quite clearly written that they are both minorities when it comes to their causes, and that these views are purely just part of the narrative and the backbone of a great storyline.
To be fair, though, these books/characters are popular for a reason. Talos/Sahaal might be in the minority, but it makes perfect sense to me that there are people (irl) who want to have a NL splinter warband based on their beliefs (myself included). Don't forget 40k is a sandbox, to each his own, etc. I guess what I'm trying to say is we don't need to be so hard on these 'misguided' players :p


Oh yes. Firaxin has really made my day with this gem (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354754-Night-Lords-and-Chaos-Marks)
<snip>
I kind of love it. All it took someone was a little imagination.

Totally agree. It's a very nice, and original, justification ^_^
Thanks all :D


Put it this way. Talos and Sahaal are those guys that still wear a Denim jacket, drive a 1985 Mustang, and pound Def Leppard on their cassette decks.
And now we have a fluffy justification for Night Lords with the Mark of Slaanesh... ;)


Actually the +1 toughness mark is easy to justify: "he has a shield, it gives him +1 toughness"
Grab one of those Vampire or Dark Elf shields that looks like a bat-wing.
I have thought about this. The Dark Elf Warriors kit gives you 16(?) winged skull shields, the Von Carstein Upgrade Pack gives you 12 shields. The V.C. option gives more bang for the buck, imho, especially since there's a lot more variety between the shields.
However, I'm not sure what the size comparison across ranges/species is. It might look silly, and I'm not sure how I'd model it.

Here's my outside-the-box fluff idea (though it would be much harder to model): the marked Night Lords in question have strapped/crucified a still-living slave/captive to their chest. Now enemy weapons have to pass through a T3 ablative wound before they can hurt the Night Lord. ;) The screaming captive would also a) cause Fear, b) make the enemy hesitate to shoot their former friend/compatriot, EDIT: and c) restrict the marine's range of movement, thereby explaining a Plague Marine's reduced Initiative value.

Aiwass
13-10-2012, 14:12
Here's my outside-the-box fluff idea (though it would be much harder to model): the marked Night Lords in question have strapped/crucified a still-living slave/captive to their chest. Now enemy weapons have to pass through a T3 ablative wound before they can hurt the Night Lord. ;) The screaming captive would also a) cause Fear, b) make the enemy hesitate to shoot their former friend/compatriot, EDIT: and c) restrict the marine's range of movement, thereby explaining a Plague Marine's reduced Initiative value.

That's sick. I love it, but can be a nightmare to model it. I'm not sold in the shield option, there is something wrong in this, imho.

SideshowLucifer
13-10-2012, 22:17
I'd prefer to just not use the marks or icons myself. It isn't like Fear will actually perform any function on the table anyways.

Inquisitor Engel
13-10-2012, 22:25
That's sick. I love it, but can be a nightmare to model it. I'm not sold in the shield option, there is something wrong in this, imho.

The shield is weird. You could also say it's because they're all Nostraman Night Lords and thus grew up on the streets and are known to never say die and shrug off shots that would incapacitate less 'pure' Astartes. Their Primarch healed from a throat slit from a broadsword after all and Xarl head-butted a fully helmed MKII space marine into ...um death.. without his helmet on. Granted he died afterwards, but still...

"Void Stalker" spoiler above.

Firaxin
13-10-2012, 23:59
(that might be something you want to put spoiler tags around)

Gutlord Grom
14-10-2012, 00:07
Honestly, I think I might steal the "shields as Plague Marines" idea. They'd essentially be an elite Night Lords boarding party/CQC unit. It'd be a bit cheaper version of the Boarding party/siege mantlet upgrades from the Badab War books

Inquisitor Engel
14-10-2012, 02:45
(that might be something you want to put spoiler tags around)

Done. Apologies.

ReveredChaplainDrake
17-10-2012, 06:10
I think it's interesting how the Huron-as-Night-Lord idea came up, especially considering all ADB's readers on this thread. Lest we forget, Huron actually fought alongside the Night Lords. And not just some no-name captain of some no-name warband. That was the Huron Blackheart, right down to the little hamadrya. Why do you think the second novel was called Blood Reaver?

Personally, I don't like using the CSM book, past or current, to represent Night Lords. Currently, Night Lords are expected to use daemonic stuff like Obliterators, Warp Talons, Forge/Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, and whatever that sorry excuse for a dreadnought replacement was called, not to mention all the cult troops which still outshine the basic marines in every way. (Granted, this is probably the closest the CSM "tactical" squad has ever come to competing with the cult marines for viability in my experience.) Chaos Marines have always had a problem with representing their undivided legions in particular because it's hard to not feel like a chump when you throw out so many perfectly viable units because they're just not fluffy. This was a major problem for me in 3.5, considering all the legitimately-powerful daemon units at my disposal. 4th-5th edition got me playing Night Lords proper, given that there was pretty much no point in playing any particular faction for reasons beyond "I like the color scheme". 6th edition teeters more in 3.5's direction. There's some interesting new units and options, and I would've liked to have tried out stuff like Cultists and the Forgefiend, but they don't fit. I could just call the setting a big galaxy and do whatever I want, but I don't want my Night Lords to be an army that needs to trample its own fluff to win. (My Necrons already do a fine job at that, thank you very much.) Rather, I want Night Lords to play like Night Lords should without feeling like I'm missing out on the more exciting half of the codex.

Blood Angels, by contrast, fit with Night Lords more because CSMs are basically written to be evil Tacticals with magic powers. That's the big trade-off between Imperials and Chaos: Imperials get toys, Chaos get daemons. I don't want daemons, but I don't want to throw out so many of the codex's perfectly good options for no good reason. Take it from a Tyranid player, nobody likes playing a codex where you have to ignore 80% of your options. Blood Angels may lose out on some of the fancier stuff like cult marines and daemons, but they actually make up for it with stuff like their numerous assault marine options, their fast tanks, and what ultimately sold me on Blood Angels, the Stormravens. (I've even converted two of my Stormravens' servitor pilots, one to Septimus, and the other to Deltrian.) In essence, Blood Angels actually reward my Night Lords for playing like Night Lords should, rather than CSM who reward me for defying my fluff. And yeah, Talos Valcoran is probably not the most reliable source of how VIII legion combat doctrine should look... but I don't care. I like Talos.

From what I've read, largely from ADB's Night Lords series, Night Lord tactics don't really have a speed or mobility fetish, but are about applying pressure by using, amongst other things, speed and mobility. The reason Night Lords like Raptors is they put a lot of pressure on the opponent to lose their cool and panic, which is true both in-universe and in a meta perspective, or it would be if Raptors had anything going for them in melee besides "hurr-durr 2 attacks / model". Granted, Raptors aren't the only ways that the Night Lords apply pressure to the enemy (apocryphal legend tells of a mysterious device called a "Rhino"), but they're certainly good at it. Blood Angels are also an army that lacks daemons but has a combat doctrine all about applying pressure in key areas to secure victories that were unfair fights to begin with when I leverage my mobility properly. Sounds like Night Lords to me. In a meta sense, the idea behind Night-Lords-as-Blood-Angels isn't to intimidate the enemy's units, but to intimidate my opponents themselves. And there's nothing more intimidating than a powergamer rolling out cheese units from a Mat Ward codex, am I right? :evilgrin:

Col. Dash
17-10-2012, 13:55
Very well said, ReveredChaplainDrake, I couldnt have said better and more coherently myself. I might have to copy paste your post on my local forum where we are having a similar discussion.

Dryad
17-10-2012, 20:59
I think when you start getting into "counts as" Codex use, you open a door for a lot of potential rule conflicts. I understand the views expressed about the Blood Angels Codex, and I agree with many of those points. However, keep in mind that these rule books were written as part of a bigger picture. Take the Allies rules for example. The Allies rules were written with as much "fluff" taken into consideration as possible. The Allies rules assume that a Codex will be operated as a proper Codex. So, you have a situation where Blood Angels can be Battle Brothers with a lot of things that get harder to "count as" in your Night Lords rules conversion.

I mean, if you are letting yourself run Night Lords with the Blood Angels Codex, where do you stop? Are you gonna ally some Grey Knights too? Heck, make them "counts as" something as well...

Yes, the Blood Angels Codex is just a book full of numbers. And sure, you can make those numbers work for any models. But you can't discredit the fact that the person who was sitting there writing that book had red, loyalist, honour driven Space Marines in their head.

Oh, and have fun when an actual Chaos player comes to the table with Veterans of the Long War on all his units. Enjoy trying to interpret that situation when a Black Legion squad is re-rolling all his CC hits on you when he charges you. After all, Chaos hates you, "Mr. Space Marine in Night Lords disguise".

Gutlord Grom
17-10-2012, 23:01
In response to ReveredChaplain Drake:

The Exalted was a daemon Prince. Lucorphyrus of the Bleeding Eyes had long passed the point of being a 'normal' Raptor (as the ending of Void Hunter attests). In Throne of Lies, Octavia specifically questions the Night Lords choice of not deploying slaves and cultists. In the 3.5 book, the Night Lords could take Daemon Prince and Possessed. They even enslaved Fury flocks when they needed daemons. The account of Scound's Fall 5th Edition Chaos Codex has the Night Lords summoning a daemonic horde. Krief Acerbus actively mocks Sahaal's horror at how the Night Lords have changed the Heresy.

There's a hardliner group of players in the Night Lord's fanbase that perceives "pragmatist and cynical" and "disdain for the faithful of Chaos" as "will never, never ever use anything more Chaotic than spiky tank". The argument is based around the points of view of Zso Sahaal, who missed about ten thousand years of history on top of being one biggest glory hounds in the galaxy and Talos, who even other Night Lords say may believe has gone over the edge as a purist. I like both characters: I enjoyed Lord of Night and the Night Lord series was a really great read. But that doesn't change the fact that the two main characters are the lunatic fringe of a cynical, bitter Legion. And honestly, its constraining what makes a "fluffy" Night Lords army. What makes it worse is that the same group turns around loudly proclaims they can't play the Chaos because they can't see a way to play their army. I'm sorry, but its an extraordinarily narrow view of the background. It then comes across as self serving when someone says they'll use Blood Angels to represent "proper" Night Lords.

The Night Lords aren't devout worshipers of the Chaos Gods, that we can all agree on. But that doesn't preclude the use of the tools on offer. Obliterators were portrayed as mercenaries in the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, and the new book doesn't change that. Defilers, Heldrakes and both flavors of Fiend are unholy unions of daemon and machine, but at the end of the day they're still just tools to be exploited for victory. Three of the backgrounds for cult troops (Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines) point to it being possible for a Cult Marine to have ties to a Legion outside of his cult. What would stop them from wanting to rejoin their Legion brothers in the Long War? The Night lords are perfectly using to use daemons to their own advantage or to wreak terror in their wake. Cultists are just slaves and expedable crew, rounded up and pointed at the en,my to soak up gunfire. If the Night Lords are pragmatic as we believe then to be, then I find it odd they wouldn't try to take advantage of the option available to them.

And if you don't want to field cult troops or daemonic marines as is from the Codex, there still counts as within the Codex. Plague Marines are shield carrying boarding parties (brought up in this thread). Berzerkers are Legion murderers, gauntlets painted red and announcing their eventual execution. In the night Lord series, Talos uses his helmet augmented voice to kill and seriously injure lesser troops, so there's a start for Noise marines. Marks are specific combat drugs or in the case of Tzeentch personal shields. Obliterators are Night Lords weapon teams, who use stealth to find a forward position and unveil themselves when the time is right (read: Deep strike) (example http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=192850 ).Warp talons are elite Raptors with flashbangs.

You can represent Night Lords in the Chaos codex, whether you want to purist and stick strictly to that legitimate view, even if its not competive. You can run an army with a lot of counts as and taking advantage of the tools offered in the Codex, whether that be cult troops or Chaos marks and still legitimately call it a fluffy Night Lords army. I just don't think throwing the Codex out the window and playing "Blood Angels Halloween Party" is ever going to be the way to go with the Night Lords, no matter how powerful the book may be.

ReveredChaplainDrake
17-10-2012, 23:07
I mean, if you are letting yourself run Night Lords with the Blood Angels Codex, where do you stop? Are you gonna ally some Grey Knights too? Heck, make them "counts as" something as well...
The limits are very simple: at what point does the army stop being fluffy? Yes, the Night Lords have some oddly Blood-Angels-looking tanks. But they fought against the Blood Angels on Crythe, and Night Lords are known to scavenge little scraps of weapons here and there. Least of all, Talos isn't too picky that his sword just happens to be a Blood Angels sword. I can't imagine they'd have any more reservations about 'liberating' their tanks. But if I'm doing it to win, I'm both missing the point and wasting my time, and possibly even wasting my money. Face it, Blood Angels aren't the Mat Ward codex everybody messes their pants over, and I already have an army that can win.


Oh, and have fun when an actual Chaos player comes to the table with Veterans of the Long War on all his units. Enjoy trying to interpret that situation when a Black Legion squad is re-rolling all his CC hits on you when he charges you. After all, Chaos hates you, "Mr. Space Marine in Night Lords disguise".
Also fluffy. Night Lords, particularly Talos' warband, have made themselves pretty notorious among the big names in Chaos Marines, including Huron Blackheart (twice) and Abaddon himself. Turning tail and leaving these big-name warlords in the dust doesn't win your warband a lot of diplomacy points. If they hate me in return, I find it quaint that they remember.

MisterRichard
17-10-2012, 23:33
base coat 50/50 chaos black and regal blue then paint the corruscating lightning. Maybe take lots of chosen so they can mess up any opposing troops.

dunno how ill play em aside from using every dirty trick in the book.

Col. Dash
18-10-2012, 01:03
Typically those of us with fluffy armies, and we existed long before Lord of the Night, have our own fluff imposed limits. You wont see us fielding Baals or any other BA only equipment that there is no justification for NL to be using, same goes for allies. I wont play NL using the chaos codex because I find it very dull and limiting on troops and delivery devices. I see them and most of the chaos legions using drop pods and other fast landing craft heavily, I dont see them using slow lumbering dinobots and defilers, in fact in the original fluff on defilers they were very uncommon and were gifts from Abaddon himself. I am a purist and thus that is how I play my list and thus a BA or SW(when I go termy heavy) is a more appropriate rules set. My main army list is a Logan(Night Wing) hardly a competitive list so I do not think I am being a power gamer.

Hrogoff the Destructor
18-10-2012, 03:05
I’m still having a hard time seeing how people are justifying using the Blood Angels codex. Apparently the Night Lords I read about are totally different than the ones people who use the Blood Angels codex do.

So why do I think the Blood Angels codex is a terrible fit for the Night Lords?

They are liars, cowards, and will do anything to gain an advantage. This is clearly evidenced by every single story done by ADB. That and they run. A lot.

ADB even called them cowards when concerning a duel between the Lion and Curze. Why? Because the Dark Angel Marines were willing to go and potentially sacrifice their life in order to preserve their primarchs. The Night Lords on the other hand weren’t willing to go anywhere near their primarch when the fight broke out.

That and they should never ever get ATSKNF. I’d even say that they should not even deserve to get veterans of the long war seeing as of all the Chaos Legions they would be the first to turn tail and run. Running away from a fight they can’t win or don’t want to be involved with is shown in every single one of ADB’s books. Hell, Void Stalker was pretty much about them running away. I even think they leave one of their own guys behind at one point. Having Marines with a lower leadership perfectly represents this, not to mention the ability to be run down. These guys really don’t care what happens to those around them, they only care about themselves. Space Marines will tactically retreat and protect their brothers. Chaos Marines, and the Night Lords especially, get the hell out of Dodge if they think they might die. That, and there are plenty of instances of Night Lords killing their own brethren. If they can sacrifice the guy next to them in order to preserve their own life, they will do it. ATSKNF is pretty much the polar opposite of the Night Lords attitude.

Guard allied with the Chaos codex is perfect, and it’s far better than using Blood Angels allied with Guard. Septimus and Talos can hardly be considered battle brothers. I wouldn’t even take cultists to represent rabble working for Night Lords. I’d take allied guard because they could not benefit from any of the potential abilities/special rules the Chaos Marine codex has.

Not to mention their single biggest defining aspect is fear and terror. The Chaos codex allows you to do this with every single unit in the book. Does the Blood Angels codex? Absolutely not. So what if fear doesn’t affect Space Marines? It doesn’t affect them in the books either. They even talk about how they don’t like facing Space Marines because they know no fear and their terror tactics won’t work on them.

However, I’m sure some of you are saying giving Chaos Marines the mark of Nurgle in order to take the fear banner is uncharacteristic of the Night Lords. Then someone please explain to me why given them a mark is wrong, and yet taking a codex that is as Khorne-like as possible is perfectly okay? Taking one special rule that they shouldn’t have is unacceptable, but giving them half a dozen special rules that they shouldn’t have via the Blood Angels codex is? I don’t see anything in the Night Lords fluff that justifies them having the black rage, the red thirst, furious charge, or ATSKNF special rules (well, maybe except for Uzas). At least with the mark of Nurgle you can say they are better at hiding in the shadows of buildings and things like that thus making them harder to kill than their standard marine. They used to be able to get “stealth adept” after all.

And Night Lords will use daemons and marks from time to time. When the leader of the biggest Night Lords warband is a Daemon Prince you know they all cannot hate the warp. Then you got the Exalted who was possessed by a daemon. Uzas worships Khorne. Cyrion worships somebody. It’s hard to say that they all look down on the faithful when it seems like one out of every four is associated with the warp somehow. Yeah, the majority of them don’t like it, but they are certainly willing to tolerate it if need be.

However, doing most these things would put your army at a disadvantage, which we couldn’t have that now could we?

Apart from massed jump infantry, I really don’t get how the Blood Angel codex is the best army book for the Night Lords seeing as it is eight times as uncharacteristic as giving them the mark of Nurgle in order to get the fear banner.

SideshowLucifer
18-10-2012, 04:19
Stuff

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, but you need to realize we are entitled to ours as well. I would never take a mark or a daemon engine in any Night Lords army I would make because that to me is the defining characteristic of the Night Lords for me. They are guerrilla fighters who use terror tactics and shun the pantheon.
Had the Chaos Codex actually included drop pods, I don't think there would be much to complain about for Night Lords. The bikes are great and although we can't get fear without an icon and mark, it really doesn't have much affect anyways.

Havock
18-10-2012, 04:20
The 3.5 night lords where characterised as having :
-Night Sight (freebie)
-4 fast attack slots for bikes and raptors, 1 heavy support slot
-No 0-1 limit on raptors
-Addition of 'stealth' to the list of veteran skills available in the wargear section

*add: the 1 heavy support slot only went into effect if/when you opted to take the 4 FA slots I believe.

Infiltrating, Tank Hunting Havocs with Autocannons and Stealth.

Costs a ton of points but... "I infiltrate in these ruins"
*3+ cover save*
That was really, really good in 4th ed. I did not make freinds with that setup, but that might have something to do with the amount of Tau/Eldar players around here at that time. And marine players who lurved them some predators. AV13 and less made the cheeselords happy. Kicking cheesed out Iron Warrior armies around because they had such dofficulty doing anything to you was also bloody hilarious.

And of course the ubiquitous (and retarded first-turn charge chaos lord/lieutenant)

OgreBattle
18-10-2012, 06:14
Are you gonna ally some Grey Knights too? Heck, make them "counts as" something as well...
SORCERERS. Brotherhood of sorcery. Infernal boltguns, baroque force weapons, daemon guns that turn the user's psychic energy into mind bullets. Channel the dark powers of chaos to smash your opponents. Immolate your enemies with the flames of chaos.

Or is "6+inv sv" all you really want from Tzeentch?

Lexington
18-10-2012, 06:21
Ah, the "BA Codex makes better Night Lords than the Chaos Codex!" argument. Unsurprisingly, made not even once by living humans before the Wardified BA book hit, despite having most of the same qualifications. That's just a coincidence, right? Yeah. Sure. That's it.

Look, you're allowed to do what you like with your Space Maureens and all, but this stuff's nonsense. Night Lords don't use daemons, or daemonic anything, because that's just wrong, and trying to get around it by saying they're something else is just plain ol' unfluffy, you say? But, oh, those Assault Cannons are just counts-as Reapers? The Storm Bolters your Terminators carry are just like combi-bolters if you squint enough? All those little quirks and differences that have defined the Chaos Space Marine list since the Clinton Administration have all mysteriously vanished? Hey, I get it. You're not inflexible here or anything, not in this welcome world of blurred lines and loose interpretation. Just so long as the actual Chaos Codex isn't involved, right? Because then you'd suddenly have rigid principles to uphold.

God.

OgreBattle
18-10-2012, 06:23
I
So why do I think the Blood Angels codex is a terrible fit for the Night Lords?

They are liars, cowards, and will do anything to gain an advantage. This is clearly evidenced by every single story done by ADB. That and they run. A lot.
CHAMPIONS OF CHAOS: You never run from a challenge, for the glory of the Dark Gods!


Not to mention their single biggest defining aspect is fear and terror. The Chaos codex allows you to do this with every single unit in the book. Does the Blood Angels codex? Absolutely not.
Blood Angels Psyker: Causes fear
Blood Angels Elite: Causes Fear
Blood Angels HQ: Causes SUPER FEAR that reduces your enemy HQ's stats for the entire game, ATSKNF doesn't grant immunity

Chaos:
Raptors cause fear: Perfect, but only FA
Fear sticks: if you drop the stick you are not scary anymore. also you must take +1 toughness.



Apart from massed jump infantry, I really don’t get how the Blood Angel codex is the best army book for the Night Lords seeing as it is eight times as uncharacteristic as giving them the mark of Nurgle in order to get the fear banner.

Some creative ideas have been given for +1 toughness, from shields to living slaves chained to their armor. I'd go with a bat-shield, because batwings are the butter on the nightlords roll

Lexington
18-10-2012, 07:01
Blood Angels Psyker: Causes fear
Blood Angels Elite: Causes Fear
Blood Angels HQ: Causes SUPER FEAR that reduces your enemy HQ's stats for the entire game, ATSKNF doesn't grant immunity
Ugh, this.

More fear =/= more Night Lord. Terror tactics are one part of the Legion's overall identity - an identity that's far more defined by their broken, aimless hatred since the death of Curze - and aren't militarily applicable in the kinds of battles 40K most often represents. This is especially true against Imperial Marines, the most common opponent out there, who have a well-noted lack of familiarity with the subject.

The Chaos Marine Codex contains an army list with the actual troops and equipment that the Night Lords have been noted as using since the first Chaos Space Marine Codex, which scholars believe was written in the mid-Cretaceous. This represents them just fine, and much better than a Codex describing a completely different type of Marine, who have bits of concepts that are thematically related to the Night Lords - concepts, it ought be noted, that are hardly unique to Curze's brood. One does not make 8-foot tall superhumans clad in metal and hate in order to make their enemies feel happy inside, no matter what faction they swear loyalty to.

OgreBattle
18-10-2012, 07:40
Not to mention their single biggest defining aspect is fear and terror. The Chaos codex allows you to do this with every single unit in the book.

Ugh, this.
More fear =/= more Night Lord.

interesting.

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 08:00
Well the way I'm running my Night Lords is as follows.

My guys have been fighting the long war they have been attacking weak imperial worlds, picking off Astartes patrols and gathering force. They are approximately the size of 2 loyalist companies.

Being murderers and such they have grown to love it. They love killing, they love the fear in the faces of those they kill. Even Astartes know fear, the fear or failing and dishonour.

They grow brutal and soon begin to kill for the sake of killing not just for tactical gain in the long war.

They want more power, want the strength to attack larger more defended targets. Then chaos whispers. With demon engines they can rip done loyalist fortifications, with a tentecled arm they can gain one up on an unsespecitng Astartes in a duel.

My guys are full on Krieg Acherbus style. So much so that the word bearers have even send a small contingent, a dark apostle and a unit of chosen to guide their new found faith.

As the night lords use the powers of chaos more and more as they thrive in the death of man chaos takes its grasp more and more. And they love it.

Ave Dominos Nox brothers and let the galexy burn.

Lexington
18-10-2012, 08:06
Not...really? Hrogoff's not me, and I ain't him.

The idea of the Night Lords as "The Fear Legion" is a terrifically one-dimensional view of what's probably become the most sophisticated portrayal of any of the Traitor Legions. Curze used terror to keep the people of Nostromo in line, and his brood have cheerfully taken to terrorizing the population of Imperial worlds before the wholesale slaughter begins. A D-B's Night Lords novels show this in gory micro-detail, especially Void Stalker. What it also shows is that terror tactics are not really their M.O. when it comes to out-and-out combat, where they work, shockingly, like most other Chaos Space Marines.

Night Lords don't just inspire fear by being Night Lords, and it's sloppy thinking to suggest otherwise.

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 08:56
One thing that annoys me is how people give you stick for hang khorne bezerker night lords or plague marines. If the Luna wolves can go from the first among equals to hating the imperium and the emperos children from perfect model Astartes to the most degenerate creatures in existnace then I'm sure a bunch of marauders with no rules could quite easily have a change of heart and begin to worship chaos.

That is why MY night lords are full on chaos worshiping scum!!

Sigtyr
18-10-2012, 09:20
As a buddy just pointed out to me, the icon of Vengeance makes more sense for a "fear factor" than the fear special rule. With the Icon of Vengeance you are directly impacting the way an opponents ld works; it is essentially -1 LD. It makes more sense that causing a unit to run away or running them down is more fear inspiring then getting hit less. I think the chaos codex is fine for Night Lords.

Aiwass
18-10-2012, 09:31
The Blood Angels syndrome. Everyone loves them. All your points about being a better dex for the Night Lords... Well, are you meaning that the NL are World Eaters? Because a lot of WE players just say the same. The BA dex is just fine to represent a WE army. Just because of FNP, FC, assault troops Death Company zerkers. Even some TSons (before the Grey Wards) claimed Blood Angels heritage referring the Psyker Dreadnought abomination.

The nipple-gold BA unit that causes fear, is just so fluffy for the NL, everybody knows they always had such unit. Or Baal Predators for that matter. Or any uber-fast tank. Or a heavy dreadnought army (yeah, you know, the kind of army that have 3 elite dreads, up to 3 troop dreads and 3 heavy dreads, very Night Lord-ish).

Is not about a unit causing fear. Is about the army using terror tactics. But I'm pretty sure that those "Nigh Lord like Blood Angels" peope would vanish in the warp if some thay GW throws in your face a Raven Guard codex.

Col. Dash
18-10-2012, 13:43
It has nothing to do with the rules, why can your thick skulls not understand this? It has to do with unit availability. BA actually has transport units available that the Night Lords actually use. They have lots of of jump packers or tactical marines, they have fear causing characters sprinkled throughout. Chaos, has rhinos.... About the only thing the chaos dex has going for it are Warp Talons, which to make a Vanguard squad equipped similarly is crippling in points, and they have fairly customizable regular marines as far as equipment and numbers go. Hell, I usually forget to check for black rage as I do not use them for any rules advantage. If the chaos codex actually had drop pods or some kind of transport landing craft, I would probably use the chaos dex, but they failed to give us any and FW, for once, isnt an option since Dread Claws are FA choices and not dedicated transports.

It is all about which codex has the best unit mix to properly represent a Night Lords army. If DA has better unit selection which it is looking like it might, I might go there. It can be on par with the chaos codex as far as power goes, but if unit selection is there, that is where I am going. I would love to have a single codex represent my entire Night Lord army, both my Night Wing and my PA guys and their aircraft, unfortunately that doesnt exist yet.

Aiwass
18-10-2012, 14:31
Then maybe, is your thick skull that can't understand about the Night Lords. They are not a raptor army nor they cause fear. They use raptors slighly more than any other legion, but that's all. They don't cause fear, they use terror tactics. Terrorism. Guerrilla. Quoting the Index Astartex, book II, page 27: "The Night Lords adopted the modus operandi of their Primarch without exception, and thrive in sowing fear and confusion among their enemy." "The Night Lords are masters of stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently". Both quotes under the Combat Doctrine section. Not even a lonely paragraph about raptors. Is not unit selection, because all units you need are in the CSM dex.

But don't misunderstand me. If you want to play against me with your Night Angels, Blood Lords, or even Night Lords using the Blood Angels codex, I'm fine. Because it's lame refusing to play against one army. Just stop trying to justify yourself. You are not convincing anyone, but yourself. That loud excuses are just to convince yourselves about you're right, just like the common Space Marines justify they brutal murder as zeal, faith, righteous for the Emperor, for the Empire. The Night Lords does not. They don't delude theirselves about that, they kill for the love of killing.

Be a Night Lord.

Col. Dash
18-10-2012, 14:43
Thats nice, I have never been a fan of the Night Lords are the raptor legion thing in the first place. The high times for NL was when they had their own Disruption charts which screwed with enemy deployment. That said, your view may be they all ride in rhinos or foot slog it. Mine is they make lightning attacks in vulnerable positions either by deepstriking terminators, drop podding, or hitting the dirt in fast landing craft in places least expected. Ill leave lumbering daemon engines to the Iron Warriors, pathetic loyalty to chaos gods to those who cant hack it on their own. I do not want to field a boring mech list as that is not what I see the Night Lords as, and I will use a codex(s) that properly represents them.

Max_Killfactor
18-10-2012, 16:07
The Blood Angels syndrome. Everyone loves them. All your points about being a better dex for the Night Lords... Well, are you meaning that the NL are World Eaters? Because a lot of WE players just say the same. The BA dex is just fine to represent a WE army. Just because of FNP, FC, assault troops Death Company zerkers. Even some TSons (before the Grey Wards) claimed Blood Angels heritage referring the Psyker Dreadnought abomination.
I play World Eaters. People that used the Blood Angels codex to represent post-heresy World Eaters were just using a more powerful dex, which seems to offend you for some reason. If they thought Blood Angels better represented Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne than actual Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne, then they were just lying to themselves.

I am against "counts as" armies in nearly every other instance, but NL players have a decent case for using a Blood Angels jumper army.

Night Lords have more raptors than other Chaos Legions. Some people think it's a lot more, some people think it's not very much... that's the difference. If a person thinks it's a lot more (I do), then taking the army that can take troop jumpers makes sense to them. It's that simple. I don't see why people get all bent out of shape. I don't even think the BA jumper army is any better than the new Chaos Codex... they are not powergaming here. It's not like they are taking min tactical squads and spamming razorbacks. That would be dumb.



The nipple-gold BA unit that causes fear, is just so fluffy for the NL, everybody knows they always had such unit. Or Baal Predators for that matter. Or any uber-fast tank. Or a heavy dreadnought army (yeah, you know, the kind of army that have 3 elite dreads, up to 3 troop dreads and 3 heavy dreads, very Night Lord-ish).

I doubt a NL player would paint them gold. I bet a NL player would get some DE scourge wings and make a badass looking unit. If a player declares they are playing NL but then uses things like Baal Preds or all dreads... then yeah, you'd be in the right. But from what I can tell, the NL players that use BA rules are mainly focused on jump pack troops and drop pods, which are both things the Chaos dex unfortunately cannot do.

dæl
18-10-2012, 17:01
It seems to me that people are just looking for ways they can justify using a Ward dex, rather than using the actual codex. It's like saying the sisters codex doesn't work so I'm going to use C:SM with Vulkan. They refuse to use any daemons, except Mephiston as a DP, and that has nothing at all to do with power gaming?

Regardless of however many Raptors the Night Lords may have they would never be used to capture objectives, they're just too unreliable. The Night Lords would, I imagine, happily use a Maulerfiend if offered one by the Dark Mechanicus, having one of them bounding toward your lines would probably result in some underwear recently lined with terror. In fact if you go through the entire codex there are far more entries that fit than in the BA dex, how for example have the NL suddenly managed to make all of their tanks fast? As for apothecary equivalents, well we know from ADB's series that Talos relinquished his role as apothecary, but you can bet these people will be taking Sanguinary Priests. Because that's what it is, nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with powergaming, they may argue otherwise, but the Mephiston/Sang Priest things show different.

EDIT: I don't think I would play someone using the BA dex as NLs, it just screams of WAAC and I'd rather not play someone with such a mindset. I would, however, happily allow someone to take drop pods as dedicated transports.

mattschuur
18-10-2012, 17:40
You really wouldn't play someone using blood angel rules with night lord models? But you 'would' play blood angels with the same exact models painted as blood angels? wow, that's sad.

I've said it on other posts, i'll say it here again. These arguments aren't going to change anything. I use my night lords as BA sometimes, as chaos others. it just depends on what I want to field. Do I want drop pod squads, then I'm using blood angels. Do I want fear causing raptors with a gun line support, I'm using chaos. to each their own. BA's power is not in the builds night lords players use, pure and simple. Try playing all Jump pack BA without a SC and find out how powerfull that is.

Also, how hard would it really have been to include legion rules in this codex? Not hard, maybe 3 pages of rules and an additional notation in unit entries. 3pt upgrade to night lords in which they gain fear, night vision and a list of units they can't take. Rinse and repeat with all 8 others legions and your done. If pointed right it would not be OP. What made 3.5 broken was the cheap costs to make legion armies, the combinations regarding the FOC (Iron warriors), the absurd Daemon summoning rules that brought about the daemon bomb and the incredibly overpowered daemonic gifts which could make a lord/daemon prince the king of the ring.

Finally, fear does represent Night Lords. After a time of guerilla actions, fear causing tactics and psychic nightmares, to actually see the 7 foot crazed killing machines of your nightmares appear, would cause most non-astartes to pee their pants.

Matt Schuur

Col. Dash
18-10-2012, 17:41
We wouldnt play although no one I know would ever accuse me of being a WAAC player. Its all fluff and army style for me, something neither the current or last dex offered.

dæl
18-10-2012, 17:52
It's not that using the BA dex makes you WAAC, it's that choosing to use a Ward dex rather than your armies actual one has the implication that you might well be a WAAC gamer, and where possible I'd just rather not play against such people.

Hrogoff the Destructor
18-10-2012, 18:03
Fear is definitely a defining aspect of the Night Lords. Their tagline for the novels is even "And Terror is their most powerful weapon" (or something along those lines). I'm pretty sure even the Index Astartes articles talked about how they were so terrifying that entire sectors would behave when they were in town.

andyg2006
18-10-2012, 18:07
I wondered if Kelly/GW deliberately made the chaos codex a bit naff in order to establish a base of players who were disappointed by it? This then stimulates quite a bit more demand for FW Legion books (which probably hit all the boxes in terms of what chaos marine players want).
If the regular 'dex had given people what they wanted, then they would be a whole lot less interested in getting the FW Legion books.

I'd have thought that the chaos dex would at least give people the option for drop pods (i.e. to sell more kits if nothing else).

I wonder: What would an army made from the main units in ADB's books ("First Claw", I think?) look like?

Drakcore Bloodtear
18-10-2012, 18:11
I use the BA codex for my NL, personally I don't use Mephiston, Baal preds nor stormravens, heck I don't even use libby dreads, but I really enjoy the BA dex.

And isn't that the reason for playing? To enjoy yourself, I play with NL models, most units in my army are converted, attack bikes are jetbikes, sang priests are deamons that cast shadows, Sang Guard are elite terrorists, does it fit perfectly? Ofcourse noy, but I have a blast playing each of my games because I have carved out a narrative for my army and have found a codex that suits the narrative.
I've tried the Chaos book (albeit not the new one) and it didn't feel right, most of the options didn't correspond with what I wanted, I didn't want poison experts with pre-heresy armour (Plague Marines), nor did I want marines using horribly loud sound technology (Noise Marines). However those options are open to players.

I don't understand when people say there are not enough choices in the CSM codex because one unit has Mark of Khorne, MoK doesn't mean anything it's just a name.
And neither do I understand when people complain about BA/NL.

It's a game guys, it really doesn't matter does it?

Firaxin
18-10-2012, 19:22
I don't think it's a player's fault if he decides to use one marine codex over another. It's GW's fault for spewing out too many MEQ rulebooks with too many similarities and not enough differences between them.

dæl
18-10-2012, 19:58
I don't think it's a player's fault if he decides to use one marine codex over another. It's GW's fault for spewing out too many MEQ rulebooks with too many similarities and not enough differences between them.

Nah, I can see the point of counts-as if GW don't make the codex, Iron Hands as SW for example, but when they do and people would just rather use one that is perceived as more powerful, well that's not really GW's fault is it.

Col. Dash
18-10-2012, 20:51
Again, you have this assumption most or all of us do it for power. Flat out WRONG. I do it because it fits the playstyle of how I see the Legion work. If you were to see my army you would understand power has little to do with it. I have a 300+ point 5 man unit, hardly power gaming.

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 21:00
All these excuses of "it fits" are rediculous, if you actually read ADBs books then this crap excuse of raptors as troops won't rub, how many units of raptors are there on the covenent?? Yeah one, a small band of bleeding eyes.

Also this whole "night lords should cause fear" is again just interpreting the fluff the way you want it to, night lords themselfs don't give off an aura of fear any more than a word bearer would or a black legionnaire. The fear comes from the things they do prior to battle not during.

And again the whole "librarians who cause fear" since when have you heard of a night lord doing this? Most if not all night lords psykers have precognitive ability.

I don't have a drama with people doing the BA dex thing at all. I run my night lords as highly corrupt and use the CSM dex because that's what my warband has become.

What I don't like is poor reasons and excuses, bending or interpreting the fluff to suit your self.

Just because one line in the codex says the night lords have a lot of raptors is no reason to go BA. Having a unit of 15 raptors in my force, I personally feel, would make that point clear enough.


( please don't take my post as being aggressive if that's how it comes across)

Inquisitor Engel
18-10-2012, 21:21
While I don't take issue with your main point, I must point out some inconsistencies.


All these excuses of "it fits" are rediculous, if you actually read ADBs books then this crap excuse of raptors as troops won't rub, how many units of raptors are there on the covenent?? Yeah one, a small band of bleeding eyes.

The 10th Company/Warband of the Exalted is not a typical Night Lords force. The Night Lords trilogy is much better for getting insight if you read past Talos and Co. and look at the other Night Lords that show up, who are


And again the whole "librarians who cause fear" since when have you heard of a night lord doing this? Most if not all night lords psykers have precognitive ability.

Other than Talos, this is stretching it a bit, since he just had visions. He wasn't A PSYKER like, say Ruven. Sevatar is also mildly psychic, but that doesn't appear to manifest in precognitions either.

Swordsman
18-10-2012, 21:22
All these excuses of "it fits" are rediculous, if you actually read ADBs books then this crap excuse of raptors as troops won't rub, how many units of raptors are there on the covenent?? Yeah one, a small band of bleeding eyes.

Aaron didn't invent the Night Lords. In all previous mentions, articles, and novels, they were very akin to 'evil' Raven Guard. The art and text implied a greater use of jump-packs than regular Legions. Now, while there are warbands with very few raptors amongst them, like those aboard the Covenant, it's quite naive to make the sweeping claim that every Night Lord warband is identical to that of the Prophets. Just as there are some with relatively few amongst them, there can equally be a warband of nothing but Raptors - like the Chaos forces who respond to Sahaal's psychic call in Lord of the Night.


Also this whole "night lords should cause fear" is again just interpreting the fluff the way you want it to, night lords themselfs don't give off an aura of fear any more than a word bearer would or a black legionnaire. The fear comes from the things they do prior to battle not during.

That's unfortunately not really something that can properly be represented in an average game. Night Lords suffer from the same problem as the Alpha Legion, I find. Aside from access to a load of 'ambush' units, like jump-infantry, or infiltrators, it's quite difficult to convey some of the thematic bad-assery of the Legions in question.


And again the whole "librarians who cause fear" since when have you heard of a night lord doing this? Most if not all night lords psykers have precognitive ability.

Cite your sources. The Prophet's gift is noted as being a rarity; not a common gift.

Blood Angels had a Primarch that was gifted with foresight as well, and it sure isn't common for their psykers to have precognitive abilities.


I don't have a drama with people doing the BA dex thing at all. I run my night lords as highly corrupt and use the CSM dex because that's what my warband has become.

What I don't like is poor reasons and excuses, bending or interpreting the fluff to suit your self.

Just because one line in the codex says the night lords have a lot of raptors is no reason to go BA. Having a unit of 15 raptors in my force, I personally feel, would make that point clear enough.

While I myself would use the Chaos codex, I completely understand the motivation for those who use the Blood Angel codex to make an army that, to them, fits the idea of the Night Lords. They're not hurting anyone, so who cares?

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 21:42
So to counter my argument that people keep saying "In ADBs books they do this or are like this" you respond by saying that ADB didn't invent the night lords and as such pretty much counter act all the previous mentions of ADB?

You are correct that he didn't invent them, of course I didn't say that either.

However he had contributed a lot to their recent modern fluff. The HH books and lord of night are another good reference.

Yeah in Lord of night it may say there are raptors and pods falling from the sky but its a planetary invasion right? If you looked at an ultramarine, Templar, word bearer, black legion or pretty marines planetary invasion I'm sure it would be remarkably similar.

I do agree with the alpha legion point you make and I defiantly agree with the fact the codex fails to represent legions fairly and I have also said I'm happy for people to use what ever book they feel appropriate. I just wish people would simply say, because I think it works better rather than coming up with poor excuses and flawed reasoning.

As for the precognitive thing you are correct iv gotten a bit ahead of myself there. However there is no mention of fear causing power either!

Loving this debate by the way.

Swordsman
18-10-2012, 22:08
So to counter my argument that people keep saying "In ADBs books they do this or are like this" you respond by saying that ADB didn't invent the night lords and as such pretty much counter act all the previous mentions of ADB?

My discussion isn't with others, or what they said. It was with your claim that we should cite the Covenant as an example of Night Lords.


You are correct that he didn't invent them, of course I didn't say that either.

I never claimed you did; why are you so defensive?


Yeah in Lord of night it may say there are raptors and pods falling from the sky but its a planetary invasion right? If you looked at an ultramarine, Templar, word bearer, black legion or pretty marines planetary invasion I'm sure it would be remarkably similar.

When did you last read said novel? The majority of the 'invasion' are Raptors, both normal - and what we'd consider Warp Talons now - are blotting out the skies. It's like a flock of carrion birds. I can't think of the last Black Legion invasion that looked akin to that; even as a Black Legion player.


I do agree with the alpha legion point you make and I defiantly agree with the fact the codex fails to represent legions fairly and I have also said I'm happy for people to use what ever book they feel appropriate. I just wish people would simply say, because I think it works better rather than coming up with poor excuses and flawed reasoning.

What flawed reasoning are you referring to?


As for the precognitive thing you are correct iv gotten a bit ahead of myself there. However there is no mention of fear causing power either!

I figured as much. :)

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 22:26
I like what you have done there, if I now say "I'm not being defensive" then your going to go "yeah you are! See!" Haha.

It's a mass planet fall, of course if would look like that but in the same way you are saying its bad to cite the covenant as a sole example it's just as bad for you to cite Kriegs warband who are an often given example of the extreme end of the spectrum.

I think if we pause and look at it rather than belligerently trying to "be right" then it's clear (to me, upon discussion) that my example is at one end of the scale with the prophets conservative nature and Kriegs are at the other end, so I'd believe the happy medium would be somewhere in between.

As for the flawed reasoning that is in reference to the librarian point and the common argument that the night lords themself are avatars of fear, more so than any other genetically engineered super human psychopath!

Swordsman
18-10-2012, 22:58
I like what you have done there, if I now say "I'm not being defensive" then your going to go "yeah you are! See!" Haha.

I just didn't see the need to tell me that you never said that Aaron invented them. We are both aware you didn't say it. It just makes it seems like you're on the defensive.


It's a mass planet fall, of course if would look like that but in the same way you are saying its bad to cite the covenant as a sole example it's just as bad for you to cite Kriegs warband who are an often given example of the extreme end of the spectrum.

It's not really that extreme though, is my point. The vast majority of the background material opposes Aaron's writing. While I think his writing is incredible, I also find it pretty bizarre that so many people are using his works as the new Night Lord bible; and saying what defines a night lord, based upon his trilogy. We have Index Astartes, short stories from the likes of 'Heroes of the Space Marines' - amongst others - and even appearances in a Ragnar Blackmane novel, that all show Night Lords as fear-mongering whackos, with a fetish for flight.

I don't believe they necessarily need troops to represent this, mind you, but I do understand why people personally see it that way.

To me, it just seems that we have veterans butting heads with newer fluff-buffs, who have made Aaron's work 'the standard' for what defines a Night Lord; when there's so much background that says 'Hey, these guys are not the norm - at all!'.


I think if we pause and look at it rather than belligerently trying to "be right" then it's clear (to me, upon discussion) that my example is at one end of the scale with the prophets conservative nature and Kriegs are at the other end, so I'd believe the happy medium would be somewhere in between.

I find that there's a lot more depth to Night Lords than just getting-off on scaring people, and leaping through the sky. However, I also recognize why these people do want to field their army in the way that they've been depicted for so long, in so many sources.


As for the flawed reasoning that is in reference to the librarian point and the common argument that the night lords themself are avatars of fear, more so than any other genetically engineered super human psychopath!

The difference though, is that fear is a side-affect for other renegade Astartes; but for the Night Lords, it's the mission.

To give you an example: while in the military, my grandfather and his squad came upon an enemy encampment where the enemy were all sound asleep. He and his men slit the throat of every-other man in the camp, while they slept. Now, it would of been more effective to just kill them all, right? Instead, they purposefully left some alive, just to sow terror amongst the enemy. That's the Night Lord way.

Fear is their weapon. Where another Legion scares the **** out of people by just being what they are, the Night Lords are actively seeking to use fear as their weapon to weaken the enemy, to make them easier prey. They scare a population to death; letting them be sapped of strength and resolve, via guerrilla warfare, before they deal the killing blow.

Horus Lupercal
18-10-2012, 23:10
You don't need to lecture me in military strategy, I know a lot about that sort thing having recently come home from a rather dusty country :)

Certain forces use similar tactics, the threat of beheading for talking to isaf forces being an example.

What you said there though is exactly my point, to them it is all about the fear they can create. But in the 41st millennium an imperial citizen isn't going to be any more or less scared no matter what colour marine comes at him! As you explain it's not the marine him self, it's the threat of his actions.

A lot of people do take Aaron's books to be the new standard of night lord fluff but like I said, I'd use them as an example of one end of the night lords scale, not the medium, surely you agree?

SideshowLucifer
19-10-2012, 02:06
I'm not sure I agree that using the BA codex for NL is out of a desire to be more powerful. I wasn't aware that codex was in the upper levels of power and I play the codex for my flesh tearers. If a NL player uses jump infantry, bikes, dev squads, and such, how si that being more powerful when they could just as easily cave in on their theme and take a crap load of daemons and crap from the chaos book?

Col. Dash
19-10-2012, 03:17
Remember also it covers my personal issue with the subject. For some reason unknown to us, they punished us and gave us dinobots and no drop pods or flying transports. Hell just drop pods would let me field the army I want to field but alas they went against Legion fluff(not just NL).

SideshowLucifer
19-10-2012, 05:11
I have to agree that I'm pretty much against the new dinos and buzzard. The Chosen are great and so are the bikers.

Aiwass
19-10-2012, 12:20
Well, I have no intent of defend the CSM dex as if were brilliant. Mutilators are just meh, also the heldrake idea and model. I don't like dinobots, but have nice rules. You always can convert a SM Stormtalon into a heldrake and there you go, you have a STC flier with nasty rules which FYI is a nice fast attack option capable of ruining infantry gladly with the flamer, or take down fliers and transports with the hades AC. Mutilators are a lost cause imho, ugly, expensive, slow and useless unit. But the drake can be fitted into a NL army pretty well.

Don't take me wrong, our codex is far from perfect, I miss options (say, drop pods/dread claws, jump lord=raptors in the troop slot, bike lord=bikers in the troop slot. Also the VotLW is a nice idea bad, very bad implemented. That must have been done in the same manner as in the HH Betrayal (i.e. the unit can take one of the following special rules: outflank, tank hunters, infiltrate, furious charge...)) but I think is better to use the codex intended for your army if you have one. Again, I don't mind playing with count as codex as long as the minis are painted and you don't go codex-jumping every game. Also you (generically speaking) can bring me some beer and make me happy to play with your little pony army count as nidzilla.

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 12:24
I wonder how Many Sisters of battle players will be using Codex: Blood Angels / Space Wolves [delete as appropriate] because it gives them access to Drop Pods - they do use them, so it's totally the best/only way to represent them properly.

Horus Lupercal
19-10-2012, 12:29
Ah man, now you've gone an opened up another pack of worms!!

Aiwass
19-10-2012, 15:29
I wonder how Many Sisters of battle players will be using Codex: Blood Angels / Space Wolves [delete as appropriate] because it gives them access to Drop Pods - they do use them, so it's totally the best/only way to represent them properly.

Or a drop-pod Vulkan list for that matter. SHEFEMALE SPACE MARINES.

SideshowLucifer
19-10-2012, 15:57
Also you (generically speaking) can bring me some beer and make me happy to play with your little pony army count as nidzilla.
Favorite quote of the thread..lol
I don't really care what color marines my opponent fields as long as I know which codex they are playing from. Playing against a Blood Angle codex painted like NL doesn't bother me anymore than playing against a Blood Angle codex painted like Flesh Tearers.

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
19-10-2012, 19:01
I wonder how Many Sisters of battle players will be using Codex: Blood Angels / Space Wolves [delete as appropriate] because it gives them access to Drop Pods - they do use them, so it's totally the best/only way to represent them properly.

You're just being flippant now. There's a pretty notable difference between swapping the paint-color of a Marine, and turning normal humans into genetically altered killing-machines.

'Oh, er, my Sisters are one point tougher - and faster, because they're, uh, extra religious.. yeah..' :rolleyes:

It seems that your real problem with the 'counts as' crowd, is that they're using your book, Damocles.

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 20:17
'Oh, er, my Sisters are one point tougher - and faster, because they're, uh, extra religious.. yeah..' :rolleyes:
As opposed to 'my tanks are fast vehicles now because...'
'My Chaos Marines have ATSKNF because...'
'My Termiantors have Storm Bolters because...'
etc.?



It seems that your real problem with the 'counts as' crowd, is that they're using your book, Damocles.
Yes :eyebrows:

The person with a counts as Tyranids Genestealer Cult; a counts as Eldar/Dark Eldar Harlequin army; a counts as Imperial Guard/Grey Knights Adeptus Mechanicus army; and who uses their Blood Angels as Dark Angels (1st Company) has a problem with the 'counts as crowd'. That must be it.

In fact, I don't believe that I've voiced any opinion on the use of Night Lords as counts as Blood Angels in this thread other than to question how Codex: Blood Angels is any closer to the Night Lords specific rules from Index Astartes/the 3.5 Codex than the 6th ed. Codex: Chaos Space Marines.


EDIT: For the record, I couldn't care less what colour you've painted you 'Blood Angels' as long as it's clear what everything is, but if you say to me, 'these are my Night Lords using Blood Angel rules because I can't represent them using Chaos Marine rules' I'll make a :eyebrows: face.

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
19-10-2012, 20:39
As opposed to 'my tanks are fast vehicles now because...'
Dark Mechanicus tweaking; daemonic tampering; sorcery; the driver is willing to run his vehicle into the ground, as he has no respect for the spirit. You have unlimited options with Chaos.

'My Chaos Marines have ATSKNF because...'
ATSKNF represents falling back when things aren't going your way, to reassess the situation. However, it can just as easily represent the Night Lords somewhat cowardly nature of only fighting when the odds are heavily stacked in their favor.

'My Termiantors have Storm Bolters because...'
In ten-thousand years, they haven't looted a single Imperial ship, or fallen Astartes?..

I can do this all day. But can you explain how your sisters are genetically altered to the same state of an Astartes? :eyebrows:


The person with a counts as Tyranids Genestealer Cult; a counts as Eldar/Dark Eldar Harlequin army; a counts as Imperial Guard/Grey Knights Adeptus Mechanicus army; and who uses their Blood Angels as Dark Angels (1st Company) has a problem with the 'counts as crowd'. That must be it.

If you're not against it, why do you feel the need to post snide comments towards those doing so, or make inflammatory bait-posts? Perhaps you can clear that up for me.

Swordsman
19-10-2012, 21:01
What you said there though is exactly my point, to them it is all about the fear they can create. But in the 41st millennium an imperial citizen isn't going to be any more or less scared no matter what colour marine comes at him! As you explain it's not the marine him self, it's the threat of his actions.

The thing is, the Night Lords drag out their invasions usually. Where the Black Legion or World Eaters would quickly just crush the enemy forces, by meeting them head-on. The Night Lords would use guerrilla warfare to weaken them first. Slowly bleed away their resolve, and ability to even combat them. Then, only after the deck is stacked in their favor, do they strike.

Night Lords are the 'horror flick' of Chaos Legions. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, that's hard to represent in the game. Especially as there is no way to grant your Astartes fear, without devoting the squad to Nurgle, and taking a standard. Night Lord players were denied the few options (that were already pretty limited) that allowed them to field a thematically fitting force; I'd be pissed too.


A lot of people do take Aaron's books to be the new standard of night lord fluff but like I said, I'd use them as an example of one end of the night lords scale, not the medium, surely you agree?

I can agree with that, yes.

Horus Lupercal
19-10-2012, 21:06
I agree with you, it is hard to represent them in the game, there isn't even a warlord trait that suits them.

What we would need to make people happy is,

Raptors as troops
Dread claws (and not just to make night lord players happy, where's my damn dread claws!)

Finally a warlord trait that gave d3 units -1 or possibly even -2 to Ld would represent demoralisation to troops quite well I believe. After all we can't go ott.

dæl
19-10-2012, 21:18
You're just being flippant now. There's a pretty notable difference between swapping the paint-color of a Marine, and turning normal humans into genetically altered killing-machines.

'Oh, er, my Sisters are one point tougher - and faster, because they're, uh, extra religious.. yeah..' :rolleyes:

It seems that your real problem with the 'counts as' crowd, is that they're using your book, Damocles.

Swapping colour scheme, granting ATSKNF and other special rules, extra units that have never been associated with the original army. It's not a case of just these Dark Blue Marines are Red Marines, it's that they represent a completely different type of army.

Swordsman
19-10-2012, 21:19
The book was rushed, I absolutely believe that. I mean, there's a mess of rules and oversights that need to be FAQ'd; expensive melee units lacking grenades, or that are slow and purposeful; and then you have many Legions who lost the limited ability to represent themselves on the table-top, thanks to poor Codex planning by Kelly. Then you have things that were just left-out, like dreadclaws, or some other means to take the fight to the enemy in a reasonable fashion. In an edition where taking light transports is a free kill-point to your enemy that you can't make back.

There's a lot of flaws in this book.. Which is a shame, considering our last book was an aberration.

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
19-10-2012, 21:26
Swapping colour scheme, granting ATSKNF and other special rules, extra units that have never been associated with the original army. It's not a case of just these Dark Blue Marines are Red Marines, it's that they represent a completely different type of army.

I'm not seeing it. The Night Lords like close-combat, butchering their foes, and using jump-infantry to disrupt enemy plans, and set ambushes. All things that can be represented easily by the Blood Angel codex.

I really don't get where this whining is coming from. I mean, my god, the Blood Angel codex isn't even one of the more competitive codices out of the marine books available. It's not like people are playing their Night Lords as Grey Knights. Actually, I think I'm going to start up a small force of them doing just that, to watch Whineseer heads explode.

Boneville
19-10-2012, 21:41
With all the talk about the guerilla warfare and slow methodical fighting to sow chaos and distruption, it feels like they are describing the alpha legion.

But if i were to make a night lords army i probably would take the chaos codex mainly because im not really sold on jumpers but i still like their iconoghraphy and fluff. so maybe a few raptors as support. But thats mainlky because i dont like the prospect of all jumpers army and would thus stay away from the blood angels codex.

As too others well there free to do what pleases them, as have been told in this thread alot ofpeople see raptors as being their thing and would build accordingly. I can dig that.

dæl
19-10-2012, 22:02
I'm not seeing it. The Night Lords like close-combat, butchering their foes, and using jump-infantry to disrupt enemy plans, and set ambushes. All things that can be represented easily by the Blood Angel codex.

I really don't get where this whining is coming from. I mean, my god, the Blood Angel codex isn't even one of the more competitive codices out of the marine books available. It's not like people are playing their Night Lords as Grey Knights. Actually, I think I'm going to start up a small force of them doing just that, to watch Whineseer heads explode.

While Night Lords don't have apothecaries everywhere, librarian dreadnoughts, Black Rage, ATSKNF, Death Company, Chaplains, Scouts and Scout Bikes, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Stormravens, Baal Preds, Sternguard, Sanguinary Guard, Mephiston, or every tank being fast. But yeah, the BA codex is so much a better fit than the Chaos one.

If people are just going to take assault and tac squads and no tanks then fair enough, its not how Night Lords generally go to war, but its fair enough. If they're taking any of the above options then they are codex hopping not for fluff but for gaming purposes. Now people can do what they like with their army, but don't expect to wheel out mephiston and baal preds and have people accept that as Night Lords, and don't use mental gymnastics for your justification, just be honest that the Chaos dex doesn't give you an easy win like a Ward dex would.

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 22:23
I can do this all day. But can you explain how your sisters are genetically altered to the same state of an Astartes? :eyebrows:

genetically altered
Done - genetic modification a la gland warriors etc.. Or experimental power-boosted Sabat pattern Power Armour. Or a miracle did it. Easy peasy.



If you're not against it, why do you feel the need to post snide comments towards those doing so, or make inflammatory bait-posts? Perhaps you can clear that up for me.
It wasn't a 'bait post', although your resonse is interesting. You seem to have a problem with counts as Blood Angel Sisters of Battle...

Just because I'm not against the idea doesn't mean that I suddenly become blind to the oddities created by the scenario. Sisters of Battle was just taking 'I want Drop Pods' to its next step (although you could go further and have Tau...)

Swordsman
19-10-2012, 23:41
With all the talk about the guerilla warfare and slow methodical fighting to sow chaos and distruption, it feels like they are describing the alpha legion.

I think the difference is that the Alpha Legion could conquer a planet without the enemy ever knowing that it was them doing so; whereas the Night Lords will be very open about who - and what - they are. They want the enemy to know they're here for them, and that there's nothing their prey can do about it.

It's like they say: 'We have come for you!".

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
19-10-2012, 23:47
If people are just going to take assault and tac squads and no tanks then fair enough, its not how Night Lords generally go to war, but its fair enough. If they're taking any of the above options then they are codex hopping not for fluff but for gaming purposes. Now people can do what they like with their army, but don't expect to wheel out mephiston and baal preds and have people accept that as Night Lords, and don't use mental gymnastics for your justification, just be honest that the Chaos dex doesn't give you an easy win like a Ward dex would.

You skipped the vast majority of this thread, didn't ya? You know, the several pages worth of Night Lord players saying that they only take things that they feel fit the Legion, so that they don't even resemble the Blood Angels.. Jump-infantry troops, and drop-pods being the two biggest desirable aspects of the codex..


Done - genetic modification a la gland warriors etc.. Or experimental power-boosted Sabat pattern Power Armour. Or a miracle did it. Easy peasy.

No wonder you're of the Mat Ward defense league, you're just as creative as he is; and equally hard on established fluff at that.


It wasn't a 'bait post', although your resonse is interesting. You seem to have a problem with counts as Blood Angel Sisters of Battle...

It most certainly was. Don't back-peddle when called out, Damocles. It's poor form.


Just because I'm not against the idea doesn't mean that I suddenly become blind to the oddities created by the scenario. Sisters of Battle was just taking 'I want Drop Pods' to its next step (although you could go further and have Tau...)

You seem to be adept at fetching quotes, so cite the source for Sisters using drop-pods. I'm genuinely curious to see it.

Death Company
19-10-2012, 23:51
I have no problem letting Night Lords use the Blood Angel codex to represent their army. Worlds Eaters? Not so much - well, not anymore, anyways.


You seem to be adept at fetching quotes, so cite the source for Sisters using drop-pods. I'm genuinely curious to see it.
I'm actually curious about this too. I've never seen Sisters make use of drop-pods, ever. In fact, I recall reading only Astartes can even survive the drop-pod assault.

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 23:55
No wonder you're of the Mat Ward defense league, you're just as creative as he is; and equally hard on established fluff at that.
So it's fine and dandy to handwave fluff explanations for Chaos, but not for Sisters?

That seems a fine double standard.


You seem to be adept at fetching quotes, so cite the source for Sisters using drop-pods. I'm genuinely curious to see it.
'Pietas mobilised a strike force of Adeptus Sororitas Celestians, who deployed from orbit aboard their drop pods, making planetfall in the midst of the company at the height of the celebrations...'
'Rogue Sons' in White Dwarf 303 (UK), pg.72

dæl
20-10-2012, 00:46
You skipped the vast majority of this thread, didn't ya? You know, the several pages worth of Night Lord players saying that they only take things that they feel fit the Legion, so that they don't even resemble the Blood Angels.. Jump-infantry troops, and drop-pods being the two biggest desirable aspects of the codex..


Jump infantry troops I've covered, Raptors would NEVER be used to take objectives, they are far too unreliable. As for Drop Pods, there are Dreadclaws. Done, no need to cast aside a brand new codex which has only been out a few weeks.

SideshowLucifer
20-10-2012, 05:40
While Night Lords don't have apothecaries everywhere, librarian dreadnoughts, Black Rage, ATSKNF, Death Company, Chaplains, Scouts and Scout Bikes, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Stormravens, Baal Preds, Sternguard, Sanguinary Guard, Mephiston, or every tank being fast. But yeah, the BA codex is so much a better fit than the Chaos one.

If people are just going to take assault and tac squads and no tanks then fair enough, its not how Night Lords generally go to war, but its fair enough. If they're taking any of the above options then they are codex hopping not for fluff but for gaming purposes. Now people can do what they like with their army, but don't expect to wheel out mephiston and baal preds and have people accept that as Night Lords, and don't use mental gymnastics for your justification, just be honest that the Chaos dex doesn't give you an easy win like a Ward dex would.
Out of all those choices, I'd likely only use Sang Guard as my Raptors (if I used them at all). They fit fairly well and cause fear. I don't believe the raptors define the NL, but I do like the fear causing rules that aren't realy fear and I do like drop pods and assault troops without jump packs. As I said, I could use the Chaos Codex as well, but I'd be missing drop pods more than anything else, whereas with the BA codex, I'm missing Havoks.

Lord Damocles
20-10-2012, 20:21
Out of all those choices, I'd likely only use Sang Guard as my Raptors (if I used them at all). They fit fairly well and cause fear. I don't believe the raptors define the NL, but I do like the fear causing rules that aren't realy fear and I do like drop pods and assault troops without jump packs. As I said, I could use the Chaos Codex as well, but I'd be missing drop pods more than anything else, whereas with the BA codex, I'm missing Havoks.
So really all you want is Drop Pods (but not Dreadclaws), since you can have actual Raptors which come with actual Fear as base, and assault troops without Jump Packs from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
20-10-2012, 22:39
So it's fine and dandy to handwave fluff explanations for Chaos, but not for Sisters?

That seems a fine double standard.

You have two armies with identical stat-lines, and gear options (for the vast majority). One using the others book - when only fielding fluff appropriate units, isn't a big deal - no. Trying to justify stat-line changes, that don't fit the setting, at that, is not the same.

There's no double standard; your justifications were just poor. :)


'Pietas mobilised a strike force of Adeptus Sororitas Celestians, who deployed from orbit aboard their drop pods, making planetfall in the midst of the company at the height of the celebrations...'
'Rogue Sons' in White Dwarf 303 (UK), pg.72

Haha, I had a hunch that it would be a fluff-clippet from that rag they try to pass as a magazine. I'm not disappointed.

SideshowLucifer
20-10-2012, 22:45
So really all you want is Drop Pods (but not Dreadclaws), since you can have actual Raptors which come with actual Fear as base, and assault troops without Jump Packs from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Well what I want is a bit more, but what I tend to settle for would indeed be mostly drop pods, yes. I want an army that causes fear (yes it's useless, but it's fluffy) and can either drop some troops or infiltrate them. I want to not have to field daemons, or have to accept challenges (though I can live with the latter).
I would honestly likely use Havoks, bikes, and chaos marines out of the chaos dex with Huron as a NL character, and maybe another lord or psyker. I'm pretty much done with trying to piece an army together from other codexes and would just go with the chaos one now.

forkmaster
23-10-2012, 08:43
Its the first time I exit the project logs to visit other areas, so please don't bash me out for my theories here. As I understand it, the Exalted's/Talos's warband is kinda meant to serve as a typical template as how a typical Night Lords warband could look like. Its hinted dossens of time that the Legion is broken and unable in so many senses to unite, no matter how strong the leader is. The Exalted was a strong character but flawed, Talos was only respected for his inheritage of foresight and potential to be the guy uniting all Night Lords again, as the prophecy says. That's why there aren't many HUGE warbands, as Black Legion or Word Bearers might have, they are broken down to the core on a individual level.

This is the same with the Word Bearers Omnibus and Iron Warrior Omnibus, they are supposed to show the typical traits of how each Legion is and why they are special. Both the Index Astartes and Codex 3,5 says that Night Lords avoided daemons and despises Chaos. HOWEVER there are ALWAYS exceptions. The Exalted, Ruven and Acerbus are perfect examples for this. And as someone said, 10,000 years is a long time. Talos and his fellows have avoided the Eye of Terror, which could show shy they havent been corrupted as others, but thos who haven't, surely are deemed to be corrupted.

I can see absolutly no problems with Night Lords who are fully corrupted, using daemons and what not. On the thing about Raptors. One of the NL's special things in codex 3,5 is that they could use how many Raptors they wanted with no limitation. I think that is the start for all this. No, NL's aren't solely alone with using Raptors, but I think they were amongst the first to develop them AND they have them in the highest numbers, only they are spread out like the rest of the Legion.

Someone said ADB left Warseer, anybody would like to explain how come?

REDEATH
23-10-2012, 11:00
I am just going to wait for the Horus Heresy Night Lords list that comes out in the ForgeWorld books as that will be the closest fit for them. :p

Inquisitor Engel
23-10-2012, 13:51
As I understand it, the Exalted's/Talos's warband is kinda meant to serve as a typical template as how a typical Night Lords warband could look like. Its hinted dossens of time that the Legion is broken and unable in so many senses to unite, no matter how strong the leader is.

10th Company is the exception, not the rule. It's commented on by multiple characters, multiple times throughout the series. Every time we see other Night Lords, they're well-equipped, fairly disciplined militarily and not whining about their supply of bolter rounds, or even manpower when the Echo of Damnation takes some of them aboard.


Someone said ADB left Warseer, anybody would like to explain how come?

Because it's full of people who think their interpretation of someone's book is more valid than the author's, AFAIK. B&C is doing a great job of wearing his patience thin right now, too. It's a little more fanboy heavy though, for obvious reasons.

Max_Killfactor
23-10-2012, 14:41
After reading the Raven Guard thread, which is nearly the same argument....

Maybe FW will make a Night Lord character that makes Raptors a troop choice, like Korvydae. Or if you play with a regular group, maybe you could make a custom special character that does just that. Of course, this is assuming that you are one of the NL players that thinks Raptors as troops makes sense.

Obviously, playing outside of your group may cause problems.