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bugsfromessex
09-10-2012, 09:03
Do thousands sons have any sort of physic hood if so what's the range to deny physic powers

The Wraithlord
09-10-2012, 11:59
No. They got squat. They are actually worse casters than the were in the previous codex.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 12:07
No. They got squat. They are actually worse casters than the were in the previous codex.

Hmm, so what did the lose? The ability to take an extra power, which isn't needed anymore. And we got the most powerful psyker in the game so far.

Asher
09-10-2012, 12:11
Hmm, so what did the lose? The ability to take an extra power, which isn't needed anymore. And we got the most powerful psyker in the game so far.

The ability to consistently take a useful power. Unfortunately they now have 1/3 chance to generate a useful power, 1/3 chance to generate a medicore power and 1/3 to generate a undesirable power. They can't even switch for Rulebook powers.

Plus, the sorcerer doesn't help with S&P anymore.

DietDolphin
09-10-2012, 12:17
The biggest problem with our sorcerers is that apart from one power, you can't pick anything. The only option you have is to roll on tables and hope for the best.

With marines they can pick powers from multiple options or roll on the tables. For us we just roll and hope for the best. It doesn't make much sense since sorcerers spend every waking hour learning spells yet we can't guarantee anything, so it's hard to make a strategy around them them.

Perils of the warp became even more deadly to us, and Deny the Witch basically means every unit has at minimum a 6+ inv against our sorcerers.

However due to the new rules you don't really need psychic hoods to Deny the Witch, which our sorcerers do help with.

...even though this all seems doom and gloom, my thousand Sons army is actually better than before due to allies synergy and being able to give everything the Mark of Tzeentch (though don't bother with regular marines or cultist.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 12:18
The ability to consistently take a useful power. Unfortunately they now have 1/3 chance to generate a useful power, 1/3 chance to generate a medicore power and 1/3 to generate a undesirable power. They can't even switch for Rulebook powers.

Plus, the sorcerer doesn't help with S&P anymore.

They can't generate Wind so its 50/50 - for the champs anyway. I wouldn't write off the boon spell so quickly - a nurgle termie lord has a 5.5% chance to take a wound from it.

Doombolt is far better than it was and absorbed Bolt with 6" less range. Wind is unchanged and was a decent spell back then. It actually gives us more predictable outcomes for useful spells unlike the BRB where it is a bit of a grab bag depending on what you want to do.

Azazel
09-10-2012, 12:19
Being Psykers you get +1 to Deny the Witch rolls. +2 if you are a higher mastery level than the enemy casting the power. Range is just the unit targeted.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 12:20
With marines they can pick powers from multiple options or roll on the tables. For us we just roll and hope for the best. It doesn't make much sense since sorcerers spend every waking hour learning spells yet we can't guarantee anything, so it's hard to make a strategy around them them.

Perils of the warp became even more deadly to us, and Deny the Witch basically means every unit has at minimum a 6+ inv against our sorcerers.


All the books will get aligned to this system. I wouldn't worry about others being able to pick right now. A 6+ isn't going to stop much and it applies to everyone.

DietDolphin
09-10-2012, 12:29
All the books will get aligned to this system. I wouldn't worry about others being able to pick right now. A 6+ isn't going to stop much and it applies to everyone.

No worries here mate, I'm just stating facts so everyone can make their own opinions. As I said at the end of my post, I have been able to make a far better list with the new codex.

Tomorrow (about to go to bed), if no one else has, I will start a Thousands Sons Tactica on the tactics forum and post my ideas and look forward to hearing other people's ideas, time to get creative!

Kevlar
09-10-2012, 12:38
Not to pile on but Kelly nerfed the MoT from a 5+ invulnerable to a 6+ invulnerable on basic troops. So even your vanilla CSM in a thousand sons list are worse!

Valorel
09-10-2012, 12:51
Not to pile on but Kelly nerfed the MoT from a 5+ invulnerable to a 6+ invulnerable on basic troops. So even your vanilla CSM in a thousand sons list are worse!

That's true, and makes me sad :'(
MoT doesn't show it's from the sorcery god anymore... A +1 warp charge, a +1 level for psyker (event at 25 points) or even better, making a lord a level 1 psyker would have been great! Giving a 6++ to a regular squad is just wasting points. I love to be able to give a 3++ to my lords and sorceror, but a bit more flavour would have been great!
And Arhiman not having divination is totally ridiculous...
I'm giving TS a try against BA this week end and will telll you all how they did! (If my opponent don't let me down...)

The Wraithlord
09-10-2012, 13:02
Hmm, so what did the lose? The ability to take an extra power, which isn't needed anymore.

Ummmm what??? There is a HUGE difference in being able to cast two powers from 4 lists with a total of 20 plus spells than in being able to cast one of three from one list. Are you kidding me??


All the books will get aligned to this system. I wouldn't worry about others being able to pick right now.

I seem to recall hearing that about the other books after the last pile of **** codex Chaos got. How did that work out in the world of GK's, SW's, etc? The fact remains that Tsons psykers are now worse than the last codex, period. Hell, in the few months transition we had between the release of 6th Ed and this new codex my sorcerers actually felt like the bad ass casters they are supposed to be with being able to cast two powers (or the top 2 point powers) from both their own list AND three in the rulebook. Now I have a random choice of 3 powers, one of which I have no desire to take, ever. Yay. I might not mind so much if the dude didn't cost so much but at 2pts less than the HQ choice for a TON less options.... yeah, they are worse than ever and no amount of wishy washy thinking about other books is going to change that.


Tomorrow (about to go to bed), if no one else has, I will start a Thousands Sons Tactica on the tactics forum and post my ideas and look forward to hearing other people's ideas, time to get creative!

I for one will be very interested in that as I don't see how they are in any way viable currently, especially without allies. And yes folks there are those of us who aren't buying into the allies cash grab and would actually like to make a viable, competitive list using only our own book. Over all the Sons will still fare well vs MEQ armies thanks to the ap3 bolters but that is a niche to be honest.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 13:21
Ummmm what??? There is a HUGE difference in being able to cast two powers from 4 lists with a total of 20 plus spells than in being able to cast one of three from one list. Are you kidding me??


Huh? We used to have only 5 spells to pick from and 2 or 3 of them got use regularly. The BRB book access was a temporary fix until the new book came out.


I seem to recall hearing that about the other books after the last pile of **** codex Chaos got. How did that work out in the world of GK's, SW's, etc?

People were saying this about fantasy, but we're 5 books in and they haven't changed direction.



I might not mind so much if the dude didn't cost so much but at 2pts less than the HQ choice for a TON less options....


If you want to compare apples to apples then the HQ sorcerer similarly equipped costs 60 + 15 for MoT + 15 for 5+ ward +5 for VOTLW - so, at 95 points he has +1W and +1WS over the 58 point champ.



And yes folks there are those of us who aren't buying into the allies cash grab and would actually like to make a viable, competitive list using only our own book.


I see so many people pining for the old book that allowed real daemons in the army and now we have them back. It isn't a cash grab for those of us who kept all our old models...

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 13:23
No worries here mate, I'm just stating facts so everyone can make their own opinions. As I said at the end of my post, I have been able to make a far better list with the new codex.

Tomorrow (about to go to bed), if no one else has, I will start a Thousands Sons Tactica on the tactics forum and post my ideas and look forward to hearing other people's ideas, time to get creative!

I've been pondering a play on the hatred of Nurgle. A unit of spawn marked as nurgle that used to be nurgle cultists that the sorcerers tortured with the boon spell. Similarly I may take a nurgle termie lord and model him in chains and cast boon on him throughout the game.

The Wraithlord
09-10-2012, 14:16
I see so many people pining for the old book that allowed real daemons in the army and now we have them back.

Heh, seeing as I never used them that is not what I am talking about. I mean that I would like to be able to build and play a viable, competitive Thousand Sons (or WE, DG, EC) list using just the one book and the units in it. I don't think that is too much to ask, especially when on the other side of the fence we have a total of 5 (6?) space marine books is it?

OgreBattle
09-10-2012, 14:17
Mat Ward really would have done a much better Chaos codex.

Kevlar
09-10-2012, 14:28
Heh, seeing as I never used them that is not what I am talking about. I mean that I would like to be able to build and play a viable, competitive Thousand Sons (or WE, DG, EC) list using just the one book and the units in it. I don't think that is too much to ask, especially when on the other side of the fence we have a total of 5 (6?) space marine books is it?

2 sorcerer lords on disks

tzeench terminators in land raider
tzeench chosen
blue hellbrute

tzeench bikers
tzeench raptors
blue hellchicken

thousand sons, rhino
thousand sons, rhino
thousand sons, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino

tzeentch obliterators
blue melee dino bot
blue shooty dino bot

Looks like a fairly competitive tzeench list to me.

It only gets better if you add in flamers and screamers.

Valorel
09-10-2012, 14:33
Mat Ward really would have done a much better Chaos codex.

Are you really sure cheesy=better?
And don't forget if Ward had written it, Khorne would be engaged to Slaanesh and soon to marry him/her/it, The emperor would have been a chaos god who got betrayed by the other 4, tzeentch would be the god of tanks cause tanks are cool, Nurgle would just be a gardener who wants to make mushrooms grow in every world, chaos gods would be bored law gods who wanted a bit of change in their life and about 5 000 000 000 sisters of battle, 15 789 eldar avatar and 3 poneys would have died in horrible, shameful, grim and dark circumstances... And of course, CSM would be the best of the best, grim-dark heroes that everybody envy, including the inquisition.

Caitsidhe
09-10-2012, 14:45
2 sorcerer lords on disks

tzeench terminators in land raider
tzeench chosen
blue hellbrute

tzeench bikers
tzeench raptors
blue hellchicken

thousand sons, rhino
thousand sons, rhino
thousand sons, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino
chaos space marines mark of tzeentch, rhino

tzeentch obliterators
blue melee dino bot
blue shooty dino bot

Looks like a fairly competitive tzeench list to me.

It does? It looks hideously expensive and full of crazy fail to me. :) You will be lucky to get the Land Raider to halfway across the board (this assumes you win the toss and go first). From then on your Terminators are walking. What purpose do the Chosen on foot serve? The Hellbrute is a dead machine walking, but might live an extra turn while they turn off your Land Raider.

The bikers are nice enough. I can get behind those I suppose. The regular old Raptors have some purpose. Obliterators are always useful.

The Daemon Engines and Dragon are kind of pointless. This edition is not kind to vehicles. Like the Hellbrute they might live a turn or two longer because of the Land Raider. I am kind of curious how many points you are using here. You do know how expensive all this stuff is right? :) I've done a little preliminary math (assuming bargain configurations) and it suffices to say I'm wondering WHAT game level you think this list is even legal for, much less competitive. :)

Finally we get to the two Sorcerers on discs. Given the way you are being hazy on the numbers of things and the points, I'm guessing they must be tricked out? Level-1 Tzentch types are awful. You really need Mastery-3 to do much. They don't strike you as vulnerable targets? :) In short, I'd like you to set the point level of this game, the specific numbers of all these things and the equipment configurations so we know what we are really talking about here.

Kevlar
09-10-2012, 14:52
It does? It looks hideously expensive and full of crazy fail to me. :) You will be lucky to get the Land Raider to halfway across the board (this assumes you win the toss and go first). From then on your Terminators are walking. What purpose do the Chosen on foot serve? The Hellbrute is a dead machine walking, but might live an extra turn while they turn off your Land Raider.

The bikers are nice enough. I can get behind those I suppose. The regular old Raptors have some purpose. Obliterators are always useful.

The Daemon Engines and Dragon are kind of pointless. This edition is not kind to vehicles. Like the Hellbrute they might live a turn or two longer because of the Land Raider. I am kind of curious how many points you are using here. You do know how expensive all this stuff is right? :) I've done a little preliminary math (assuming bargain configurations) and it suffices to say I'm wondering WHAT game level you think this list is even legal for, much less competitive. :)

Finally we get to the two Sorcerers on discs. Given the way you are being hazy on the numbers of things and the points, I'm guessing they must be tricked out? Level-1 Tzentch types are awful. You really need Mastery-3 to do much. They don't strike you as vulnerable targets? :) In short, I'd like you to set the point level of this game, the specific numbers of all these things and the equipment configurations so we know what we are really talking about here.

It isn't a real list. Just showing that you actually can use most of the units in the codex in a Tzeentch force.

Granted they aren't really competitve but that doesn't have anything to do with the mark of Tzeentch.

It just isn't a competitive codex. Chaos is banished to the lower tiers at the dawn of the new edition.

Hell I'd rather keep my 4th edition dex and keep running dual lash and obliterator spam. With the hits to mech that list was making a comeback!

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 14:55
Why does everything HAVE to have the mark of tzeentch in a TS army?

Sorcerer on disk, 3++
Lord of disk, mega flamer, 3++

20 cultits, 2x flamer
9 TS, Boon
9 TS, Boon

Heldrake
5 Talons, 2x boon, MoT
5 Spawn, MoN

7 Havocs, 2x ML w/ skyfire, 2x Autocannon
Predator, Autocannon, Lascannons

Wyrmnax
09-10-2012, 15:09
So, Thousand Sons...

Bah. They are my favorite legion. But they were unplayable on the old codex, and still as bad in this.

The 4++ save is reasonable, because cover got downgraded to 5+. However, they are so expensive per model that it hardly matters - you will die to bolters shooting at you, not plasma.

We have to pay for the sorcerer. Then it comes with MoT. Lore of Tzeentch is a awfully weak lore. You can't get Breath of Chaos. Doombolt is reasonable. Boon of mutation is meh. You risk wounding one of your characters to then have a roll that has 1/6th of chance of doing nothing, or even worse - transforming your lord on a chaos spawn. Yeah, Chaos Spawn or Demon prince are good results if you hit a unit champion, but not if you hit a tooled up Lord. Also, said chapion has a decent chance of actually getting killed by the power instead.

AP3 bolters are great. Not being able to overwatch isnt. Sucking in combat when you need to be inside charge range to fire also isnt nice.

The only function of thousand sons is to provide AP3 firepower. You could tool up a unit of 10 CSM with two plasmaguns for the price of a unit of 6 thousand sons. Those marines will have the same killing power against 3+ armor save, and will be much better against anything else. against 2+, plasma will still penetrate. Against any other save, they will have twice as many bolter shots. And they will have nearly twice the survivability of the sons. And plasma can shave off hull points of vehicles too in a pinch. And they are scoring withouth needing to pay for a lord. And they aren't even that great to begin with, just reasonable.

I think Thousand Sons are in solid competition for the 'worst unit in the codex' title.

IcedCrow
09-10-2012, 15:34
Ive always used a unit to lay down support fire. Marine players go out of their way to avoid them.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 15:39
You could tool up a unit of 10 CSM with two plasmaguns for the price of a unit of 6 thousand sons.


That is 205 points. So a bit over 7 TS. Lets say your rhino went kablooie and we're 18" apart after moving. And we'll say I got lucky enough to have doombolt.

Sorc's doombolt will probably pass over just one model at this range, 1 hit, .83 dead.
6 TS, 4 hits, 2 dead
2.83 dead

You shooting full strength at me
Plasma : 1.3 hits, 1.1 wounds, .55 dead
Bolters : 5.3 hits, 2.7 wounds, .88 dead
1.43 dead

2.83 vs 1.43

The closer I get the worse it gets for you. The two units serve different purposes. Yea you can kill a termie or two better than I can, but I kill MEQ like nobody's business.

Valorel
09-10-2012, 15:47
10 CSM+2 plasma is 170 points :s so a bit less than 6 Tsons.
And if you don't get doombolt, it's even worse...
5 TS, 3.33 hits, 1.66 dead.
Against 1.43.

It's also 8 havocs with 4 plasma or 6 chosen with 4 plasma...

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 15:54
10 CSM+2 plasma is 170 points :s so a bit less than 6 Tsons.
And if you don't get doombolt, it's even worse...
5 TS, 3.33 hits, 1.66 dead.
Against 1.43.

Plus rhino in the original setup. If I don't get doombolt I can use the primaris and bag them after they bail out of the rhino. And as you illustrated its fairly even for points cost with the edge to TS depending on some factors. TS just brings down MEQ faster the closer they are - that is why Ahriman has infiltrate and why we should consider them a close quarters army now.

Latro_
09-10-2012, 15:58
I'm starting to see now i'm in my list rewriting phase that any csm army high on cult troops isnt gonna cut it as much as they did. I'm finding cultists to almost be a mandatory inclusion really, 20 at a minimum.

TS did get buffs (not saying they are now great etc) in that:
The sorcerer snuffing it is now no longer a bad thing for the unit
Bolters are now better with the move and fire thing (general 6th change)
SaP helped in that now combined with the above you are a bit more mobile (general 6th change) but ofc in most other regards its not great.

What with the assault after firing and the Tzeentch powers it almost makes you wanna consider them as very close range / even CC troops. The 4++ to keep em alive, charge in after a ap3 salvo and have the sor do a close range power and have em acompanied by a lord with MoT an sigil for a 3++ ugh i dunno chukcing ideas out there i'v never been a fan of TS as a choice in a long time.

If I were gonna do a TS themed army sadly i'd probably only take one unit of actual thousand sons! Rest would be some serious crazy tzeentch theming - does not help folks with 30+ TS models and rhinos with FW doors etc :(

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 16:04
I'm starting to see now i'm in my list rewriting phase that any csm army high on cult troops isnt gonna cut it as much as they did. I'm finding cultists to almost be a mandatory inclusion really, 20 at a minimum.


Yea - I have 20 CC cultists in my list right now. The overall idea is to screen the TS with the cultists. Let the cultists get charged and flee. They won't overrun into another unit leaving me to step right into their face and go full blast. I'm thinking units of 10 may be better to ensure that they run.

SideshowLucifer
09-10-2012, 17:02
I'd honestly play Daemons with 1k sons allies. Drop a boat-load of flamers and screamers, min horrors, add in Ahriman with his 1k sons to hold objectives and maybe some other stuff.

CitizenNick
09-10-2012, 17:27
TS did get buffs (not saying they are now great etc) in that:
The sorcerer snuffing it is now no longer a bad thing for the unit
Bolters are now better with the move and fire thing (general 6th change)

Actaully they could always do that. S&P gave them relentless, so in some ways this is a nerf since now everyone can move and fire 24"


SaP helped in that now combined with the above you are a bit more mobile (general 6th change) but ofc in most other regards its not great.

This, however, is a very good point. S&P is not nearly as bad as it used to be.


What with the assault after firing and the Tzeentch powers it almost makes you wanna consider them as very close range / even CC troops. The 4++ to keep em alive, charge in after a ap3 salvo and have the sor do a close range power and have em acompanied by a lord with MoT an sigil for a 3++ ugh i dunno chukcing ideas out there i'v never been a fan of TS as a choice in a long time.

This is also very interesting. TSons can fire rapid fire and charge. Thanks to the changes to S&P, they will now be hitting at Intiative value (Unlike 5th where you'd be I1).


If I were gonna do a TS themed army sadly i'd probably only take one unit of actual thousand sons! Rest would be some serious crazy tzeentch theming - does not help folks with 30+ TS models and rhinos with FW doors etc :(


I think one can argure that TSons have gotten a little worse or a little better. Either way, I personally don't think it's significant.

The big change to me in trying to run a "pure" Sons army is the support options. There are a lot more options now that would fit the fluff for what would be a TSons Army.

For example, Spawn! I always ran some spawn with my Sons army. To me, it fit the theme of mutation. Spawn are better and they can be marked for Tzeentch. I'm so glad I got a Tide of Spawn box when they were still available.

Cultists! I assume you've all read Battle of the Fang? The Sons were a small part of a huge invasion force that mostly included normal humans. I'll probably keep the two sons units I have and fill out my FOC with cultist.

Warpfire Gargoyles, while not tecnically Tzeentch, are very similar (thematically) to the warpfire upgrade from 3.5 (ie the vehicle mark of tzeentch). I'm excited that the flames I modeled on my defiler will now mean something again.

Also, my sorcerer on a disc got way better now that he's a jetbike!

Are Thousand Sons a deathstar unit? Nope. Does this new codex expand the options for us? Totally.

IcedCrow
09-10-2012, 22:17
Seems if its not busted over powered that its lame

Mit Gas
09-10-2012, 22:22
Are you really sure cheesy=better?
And don't forget if Ward had written it, Khorne would be engaged to Slaanesh and soon to marry him/her/it, The emperor would have been a chaos god who got betrayed by the other 4, tzeentch would be the god of tanks cause tanks are cool, Nurgle would just be a gardener who wants to make mushrooms grow in every world, chaos gods would be bored law gods who wanted a bit of change in their life and about 5 000 000 000 sisters of battle, 15 789 eldar avatar and 3 poneys would have died in horrible, shameful, grim and dark circumstances... And of course, CSM would be the best of the best, grim-dark heroes that everybody envy, including the inquisition.

Thank you, that made my day!

Well, I'm quite unhappy with what I'm reading about the Sons once again being the worst cult unit. It's good that we can at least have allies now (hooray for flamers) but my pure TS force is going to be a mostly TS with some hired guns force now I guess. Also I would've enjoyed plastic boxes for the cults instead of new crap (not that I dislike all new releases but I'd enjoy better marines that fit DV or new cult models, especially the noise marines could use an update as they're the weakest and Forgeworld only cares about Nurgle and Khorne).

At least spawns are good now and we got cultists, that's two great things about the dex IMO. If I combine that with the fact that I can take allies, I'm almost perfectly happy. But my main units being suckers is quite unfortunate.

Latro_
10-10-2012, 00:09
I thought about it on the way home (as you do when threads give you ideas for armies) and if i did do TS i'd go for normal marines with maybe the mark of nurgle and vengeance banner.

The way i see it we like themed armies for their 'look' and i think by doing that you can take it a step further. Not only can you have a cool looking sorcerer as ye champ but you can model the spec weapons and icon to be further sorcerers or weird tzeentch oddness. As long as you are consistent i think it'd be bad-ass and you get to maintain a decent list and use all your existing models.

Yea its not ideal and you are not actually using 'powers' but end of the day none of ya'll like the random powers anyway and want something consistent, a cool looking sorcerer with blue burning hands firing out a s7 ap2 fire bolt sounds what you want.

Hell heres an even better idea, model two spinning orb type things to a base and have them near the champ (sorcerer), these can represent the plasmagun/whatever marines this kinda thing:
http://dnd4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/excerpt_4e_archmage.jpg

Maybe convert some stuff from tortured/exploited eldar farseers etc.
Captured zonthrope heads wired up some kinda weapon that hovers on a disc

so many ideas you could come up with

You can still take 2 HQ sorcerers and buff them up for psy powers.

Its pretty obvious cult based armies have arguably never been (maybe exception of PMs) a balanced (or good) choice list wise and if you drill down to what it is that attracted you to said army it was probably not the idea of having a tzeentch psy power table with 50 powers on it, it was the models and the fluff. With the freedom of the other parts of the codex and a bit of imagination... those TS models can get some use.

I mean take 'todays whats new today' o nthe gw site, look at this ******* amazing model:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2680142a_4xl.jpg
Would you care if he used it as a maulerfiend or a helldrake? as long as the base and weapons looked somewhat alright or were consistent across the army?