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Chaospling
09-10-2012, 16:54
I was speculating if it's a mistake that the Murder Sword isn't a Daemon Weapon. The reason for my thoughts is that I think it's quite pricey for what it does. It's a normal Power Sword against anything but the chosen enemy character and it's still the same amount of points as the Daemon weapon Axe of Blind Fury.
Yes the Axe of Blind Fury has draw backs but it's still a very good weapon compared to the Murder Sword which only have special rules against a single model which you maybe even won't meet in combat.

But what do you think?

logan054
09-10-2012, 17:11
I have a funny feeling your right, it seem strange that the maul was the only generic daemon weapon.

Rovient
09-10-2012, 17:59
If you're playing against mates, why not ask if it can be a Daemon weapon? If you're right then this is just another error in a codex that's full of mistakes!

Chaospling
09-10-2012, 18:21
Yes Rovient, that's certainly a possibility but actually I just wanted to hear other people thoughts about this. If I used this weapon in a battle, I would just use the rules as they are.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-10-2012, 18:28
I think the murder sword is decent, if not exceptional, as-is. Most armies, if they have a born-to-challenge model at all, have just one. So, you're adequate at wading through most normal Troops and get a very nice boost against your opponent's best challenger. Sure, that model will probably stay away from you, but that's a nice tactical bonus and in many cases that will leave you virtually unstoppable. ...Unless you hit a unit of terminators, of course...

Rovient
10-10-2012, 00:04
Yes Rovient, that's certainly a possibility but actually I just wanted to hear other people thoughts about this. If I used this weapon in a battle, I would just use the rules as they are.

Then I'm afraid unless you choose your target wisely, it's just a very expensive power sword. Sorry!

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 00:24
If you're playing against mates, why not ask if it can be a Daemon weapon? If you're right then this is just another error in a codex that's full of mistakes!

The fluff doesn't mention daemons like the other two do. I'm afraid i'm going to lean towards it not being a mistake.



which only have special rules against a single model which you maybe even won't meet in combat


If you're going to use it then it should be on a model that can get there.

Decius
10-10-2012, 00:30
As Nurgling Chieftain pointed out, there is the tactical advantage of to it: the "scare factor" of having a weapon that will super kill a specific enemy character. The opposing player now has to move his commander around because of your murder sword, which could potentially disrupt his plans more than if you simply took a regular power sword. Opponent must now decide between keeping his commander safe or supporting his army properly and risking death.

Inquisitor Engel
10-10-2012, 00:52
Since it's implied to be AN anathame if not THE anathame, I don't think it was a daemon weapon at all, but an enchanted weapon, imbued with the powers of Chaos and perhaps a minor sentience, but not a daemon proper. Ergo, not a daemon weapon.

Kevlar
10-10-2012, 01:01
As Nurgling Chieftain pointed out, there is the tactical advantage of to it: the "scare factor" of having a weapon that will super kill a specific enemy character. The opposing player now has to move his commander around because of your murder sword, which could potentially disrupt his plans more than if you simply took a regular power sword. Opponent must now decide between keeping his commander safe or supporting his army properly and risking death.

Or he could just shoot the crap out of the guy with the murder sword.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-10-2012, 01:07
It's probably a fast IC in with a couple of large units heading straight for the major objectives. Of course you can back away and shoot. But ceding objectives from the get-go is a good way to lose a game.

Charax
10-10-2012, 01:18
Or he could just shoot the crap out of the guy with the murder sword.

You have to tell your opponent who is the Murder Sword's target

You don't have to tell them which of your characters is carrying the sword ;)

Freman Bloodglaive
10-10-2012, 01:26
You have to tell your opponent who is the Murder Sword's target

You don't have to tell them which of your characters is carrying the sword ;)

Given there's a whopping two models in any army that can take artefacts? Less if you take a special character?

Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. (Sherlock Holmes)

Charax
10-10-2012, 01:46
That's 100% more options than if you had told them, and not all Chaos Lords are clunking about in Terminator armour. Some might be indistinguishable from rather ornate unit leaders. Your opponent may end up running straight into it.

If you're going to play mind games with your opponents you can turn even that slight ambiguity into an advantage. Tell him the Murder Sword's targeting his character and send a Daemon Prince straight for him, he tries to move away and place some intervening unit in the way...but the Prince doesn't have the Sword, he has the Key, and that sacrificial unit has just given the Lord (with the Sword) flawless Deep Strike when he arrives, and mired a portion of the enemy force in difficult/dangerous terrain.

The problem with your (atrociously butchered) quote is that it doesn't apply: When you tell your opponent where the Murder Sword is, you eliminate the possibility of it being anywhere else. If you merely tell him that it exists, almost any model in the army could be carrying it - your opponent cannot eliminate the impossible, because almost all of the options are possible.

That said, if the murder sword remains a non-daemon weapon then its niche use and minimal advantages render it fairly useless compared to other weapons, and if it is supposed to be a daemon weapon, it would probably be put to better use against non-HQ models, racking up kills against unit leaders to boost the bearer's Boons - rather than making a rather predictable bee-line straight for the marked model.

Theocracity
10-10-2012, 02:12
Any kind of deception regarding the Murder Sword's location is pretty shady to start with, and rendered completely moot if your opponent just asks to look at your list.

It's a weapon with a very specific purpose, and is clearly not a demon weapon. I don't see why people are trying to make it into something it isn't. If you don't need an intimidating character-assassinator, don't take it.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 02:26
Any kind of deception regarding the Murder Sword's location is pretty shady to start with, and rendered completely moot if your opponent just asks to look at your list.

It's a weapon with a very specific purpose, and is clearly not a demon weapon. I don't see why people are trying to make it into something it isn't. If you don't need an intimidating character-assassinator, don't take it.

Not all tournaments are open list.

SamaNagol
10-10-2012, 02:47
The game is open list

Chaospling
10-10-2012, 06:55
Well, it's a two-way street. Maybe I could scare my opponent with the sword, but he certainly could use his character as bait and lure me to bad decisions, while I all along waste 20 points (35 points if in Terminator Armour).

I could also ask this: while keeping in mind what you get for the same kind of points (the Axe), would you say the sword would be very cheap if it were a Daemon Weapon?

The_Klobb_Maniac
10-10-2012, 07:19
Yeah. That said, I'd take an axe or fist with the sword (and may well do that!)

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 07:29
While secrecy rules do allow for not reading each others' lists during the game, not telling your opponents which models are squad leaders and which are independent characters is just bad form and goes against the very point of making this a miniature based wargame.

If you tell him and he forgets, sure, but not annoucing where your characters are at the start of the game actually goes against the deployment rules, I'm fairly sure.

Freman Bloodglaive
10-10-2012, 13:24
PS That quote is lifted straight from the wikiquotes. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had Holmes say similar things in several of his books.

When will people stop talking about the dimensional key? Unless you can get a turn 1 assault it's highly likely that your reserves are going to turn up before it's activated. 3+ on turn 2 remember.

MiyamatoMusashi
10-10-2012, 13:28
The game is open list

What game? 40K isn't, or at least doesn't have to be.

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 14:20
What game? 40K isn't, or at least doesn't have to be.

It doesn't have to be, but the idea of wysiwyg models and, now, premeasuring strongly encourages it to be.

Addiontionally, even if the lists are kept secret, units are deployed visibly, annouced in reserves and transports and if an IC is deployed with a unit that is announced as per the IC rules. Flat out not reavling which model is an HQ character is not rules legal.

Charax
10-10-2012, 14:25
"My Lord is in this unit" isn't the same as "My Lord is in this unit, he's the model with the horned helmet carrying the big sword as opposed to the one with the plain helmet with the big sword, who is just the unit leader, and the Lord's also carrying the previously mentioned Murder Sword"

Meriwether
10-10-2012, 14:35
I refuse to use the Murder Sword just because I think the name is ridiculous. :)

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 14:42
"My Lord is in this unit" isn't the same as "My Lord is in this unit, he's the model with the horned helmet carrying the big sword as opposed to the one with the plain helmet with the big sword, who is just the unit leader, and the Lord's also carrying the previously mentioned Murder Sword"

It isn't, the latter is what is required by the rules, however. You place the lord in coherency with the unit and declare him joined to it.

You don't have to declare that he has a murder sword. If you agree on open lists, the opponent can ask and get that info, if not, then not, but you do declare which model is the IC.

In a game with precision hits, LOS!, challenges and wysiwyg, trying to hide the identity of any model is just clearly not intended or to be encouraged.

Bad monkey
10-10-2012, 14:42
I suppose it's like Ron seal, dose exactly what it says on the tin.

BaloOrk
10-10-2012, 15:12
I was under the impression that 40k was open list, or atleast you may ask about stuff and get correct answer, unlike fantasy where item secrecy plays a part.

Meriwether
10-10-2012, 15:36
I was under the impression that 40k was open list, or atleast you may ask about stuff and get correct answer, unlike fantasy where item secrecy plays a part.

You are not under the correct impression! 40K *can* be open list, and you must show your list after a game, but it isn't required (unless by some external entity such as a tournament organizer.)