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Kuroi
09-10-2012, 18:06
Hello!

I am sorry but this is really starting to annoy me. When a new player, or for that matter, a veteran, is considering investing in a new army, he is generally adviced to go with the army which has models that he would enjoy painting. And this I agree with..However, I enjoy painting skaven,and to a lesser degree, dark elves. I have a rather large army, around 4000 pts each, but my old gaming group fell to infighting and bickering and now when I am trying to find new people to play against, mostly randoms from forums and so on. I find that most of them seem to be reluctant to play me simply because of my choice of armys, and that makes me sad. Because I am not generally trying to powergame...Although I still aim to make my list competetive and fun to play with aswell as against.

I don't really know what kind of input I am looking for with this topic.. I just thought it was worth bringing up...Are there people my fellow warseerites won't play simply because of their army?

Kalandros
09-10-2012, 18:09
I've to admit, fighting Skavens has never been incredibly fun.
Dark Elves however, unless you pull the "stubborn pendant lord", I'd be fine playing a double hydra cauldron + whatever list. My Greenskins will take you on!

The bearded one
09-10-2012, 18:11
I like playing against skaven. No matter how bad it goes, you can be fairly certain you're gonna kill boatloads of models.

Kuroi
09-10-2012, 18:14
I don't suppose one you lives in sweden by chance? :P preferably Stockholm

Lance Tankmen
09-10-2012, 18:18
i would happyliy play either race but i dont agree with the skaven shooting into combat and not getting hurt by it.

Kuroi
09-10-2012, 18:21
To my knowledge we can only fire into combat if the combat only consists of slaves and enemy models. Unless you are firing with Poison wind globadiers, which has the "life is cheap" special rule...an I think they still have to randomize. (rando-mice *tihi* :P )

Kallstrom
09-10-2012, 18:50
I don't suppose one you lives in sweden by chance? :P preferably Stockholm

Hello, just wanted to mention that we at "Warhammer fantasy Stockholm" are always looking for more members and players. :) facebook our name or google us to reach our blog. Try to contact Sebastian and I will fill you in on the details. We are happy to meet Skaven, Dark Elf and any or all armies im between!

tmarichards
09-10-2012, 19:38
I will never voluntarily play vs a Dwarf army or a K'Daii, but that's about it. As much as it hurts to play vs Lizards/Skaven, playing lots of those games (and getting repeatedly smashed by both) did help me eventually work out how to beat them.

Kallstrom
09-10-2012, 19:44
I will never voluntarily play vs a Dwarf army or a K'Daii, but that's about it. As much as it hurts to play vs Lizards/Skaven, playing lots of those games (and getting repeatedly smashed by both) did help me eventually work out how to beat them.


Not all dwarf armies are gunlines you know. ;) heard of Strollaz/Anvil lists?

TheDungen
09-10-2012, 19:44
honestly? life is cheap only apply to slaves these days? how very un-skavenish.

Odin
09-10-2012, 19:48
I'd never refuse to play any army. But then I play in a pretty small group of players, and to give you an idea of our approach to the game our Dark Elf player voluntarily increased the cost of his Hydras by 50 points each because he wanted to use them but didn't want an unfair advantage.

tmarichards
09-10-2012, 20:31
Not all dwarf armies are gunlines you know. ;) heard of Strollaz/Anvil lists?

That's certainly true, but sadly I hardly ever see them in the UK. Most people run the funline.

Qupakoco
09-10-2012, 20:49
I enjoy playing Skaven, killing boatloads of rats and watching them misfire on occasion.

DE can be hard to play against, but I don't think I would ever turn down a battle with them. If I lose, I lose. Just don't be a jerk about beating me.

Azzaphox
09-10-2012, 21:31
My advice to you.. don't worry about the army...
When a bunch of friends falls out and it becomes difficult, the best thing is to find some new friends.
Not get rid of the old ones, just add some new ones.
Try anything you can to get some different people to play with.
May be difficult because of geography, but there will be more people out there than you expect

Storyteller
09-10-2012, 22:00
My advice to you.. don't worry about the army...
When a bunch of friends falls out and it becomes difficult, the best thing is to find some new friends.
Not get rid of the old ones, just add some new ones.
Try anything you can to get some different people to play with.
May be difficult because of geography, but there will be more people out there than you expect

I'll second this. Most friends have disagreements sometimes, but Warhammer is supposed to be for fun! So if you and your mates arn't having a good time with it anymore, best to find something else that you all enjoy together, and find a different group for your wargaming fix.

Oogie boogie boss
10-10-2012, 09:30
Asan ex-skaven player, I have to say I'm surprised. I've never had anyone refuse to play me due to what army I'm using. For that matter, the only reason I would refuse to play someone was if I had played them before and they had knowingly cheated or been overly aggressive/whingey. I'd never refuse to play someone because of the army they use.

Kalandros
10-10-2012, 09:34
I've played thrice against skaven and won by massacre all 3 times but I honestly hate playing against them because it is more stressful than playing against other armies :D

Those 2 doomwheels can ruin my day on each flank and the last Abomb I killed, came back with 6 wounds...
Thankfully, taking down the General (who hides on top of his bell most of the time) makes the rest of the army scurry away rather easily.

But to get to that point, grinding through countless slaves and clanrats... ugh....

The Hate.

zoggin-eck
10-10-2012, 10:58
Ha, that's pretty crummy for you, mate. Sound like a bunch of whingers you've come across, though. I'm sure enough of them have never had many problems with either army, just parroting what they heard on forums (like this one!). I play most armies, and am painting Dark Elves right now, but I played them heaps in their 6th edition "pre-White Dwarf update" version, so nobody gets to complain :)

On a personal note, I'm about to start a two-player campaign between Dark Elves and Skaven, so no complaining there!

MyNameDidntFit
10-10-2012, 11:12
I love playing Skaven! :D

They're an awesomely powerful army, for sure, but everything they do (bar hundreds of slaves) is just so fun! Whether it's with my Warriors or my Wood Elves, I always enjoy a game with the Skaven player in my group.

Same goes for DE, really. Not nearly as much, though; DE just don't have the shenanigans that Skaven have, but they're still fun to play against.

Enigmatik1
10-10-2012, 14:08
I love playing Skaven! :D

They're an awesomely powerful army, for sure, but everything they do (bar hundreds of slaves) is just so fun! Whether it's with my Warriors or my Wood Elves, I always enjoy a game with the Skaven player in my group.

Same goes for DE, really. Not nearly as much, though; DE just don't have the shenanigans that Skaven have, but they're still fun to play against.

Co-signed. My Tomb Kings have had some epic knock-down, drag-out fights with Skaven over the years and only twice did we each leave unhappy. These were cases of incredibly quick tablings, one for each of us.

I don't quite understand people refusing to play against you solely because of your army choice. It really makes no sense.

Urgat
10-10-2012, 14:48
Hello!

I am sorry but this is really starting to annoy me. When a new player, or for that matter, a veteran, is considering investing in a new army, he is generally adviced to go with the army which has models that he would enjoy painting. And this I agree with..However, I enjoy painting skaven,and to a lesser degree, dark elves. I have a rather large army, around 4000 pts each, but my old gaming group fell to infighting and bickering and now when I am trying to find new people to play against, mostly randoms from forums and so on. I find that most of them seem to be reluctant to play me simply because of my choice of armys, and that makes me sad. Because I am not generally trying to powergame...Although I still aim to make my list competetive and fun to play with aswell as against.

I don't really know what kind of input I am looking for with this topic.. I just thought it was worth bringing up...Are there people my fellow warseerites won't play simply because of their army?

I'll face anybody once. If that anybody happens to swear only by dual hydras, pendant and stuff, there won't be a second time. If he fields a fun list, the sky's the limit :)

FashaTheDog
11-10-2012, 00:25
WHen I got back into Fantasy after a 20 year break (3rd to 8th), my Undead were buried in the attic. I have since managed to unearth half of them, but I am only at 1,800 points right now. To fix the problem of needing to move two tons of accrued stuff to get to the boxes with the rest of my old Warhammer, I looked elsewhere for an army. I found the solution in my 40K Daemons. With 20 of each lesser daemon, except Bloodletters of which I have 33, a six pack of Flamers and Screamers, a pair of Bloodthirsters, a Herald of Khorne, a Herald of Tzeentch, Masque, Epidemius, Changling, a Keeper of Secrets, a Lord of Change, and a trio of Daemon Princes, I didn't need to buy a thing and could even jump into large games. Understandably I was thrilled at being able to double dip. Sadly I've gotten a few comments about must being a power gamer, which have since evaporated as I think I've only won two games with them (although at 'Ard Boys I was close to a win with maybe 200 points lost across all units, but lost almost 2,000 points to a single casting of Purple Sun and was then tabled the next turn by a second casting of it; just couldn't pass more than a handful of initiative tests, but I cannot blame my dice, they were having a bad day). If I had been accused of being cheap, then yes I would agree wholeheartedly with them. Yet I've had issues in the past with my army being banned or games declined. I have gotten people tell me that they never play Daemon armies and one tournament I was looking to go to did not allow them at all. I have also had that issue with my Dark Eldar before the 5th edition codex; a store a couple hours away had a tournament advertised as any current GW codex, but when I called for directions I was also asked what army I was bringing so they could get an idea of what people were bringing. When I told them Dark Eldar, I was told they were not allowed as no one ever played them so it would give me an unfair advantage and went on to say that from what he heard they were too weak for competitive play anyway (I've also had people tell me that they heard the army couldn't even field 2,000 points, that they had no defense against MEQ, that they only had pistols for ranged shooting, that they were no longer an official army - I laughed, explained what they could really do, and then taught them the value of believing hearsay). I thanked him for the info and informed him I would not be attending. He was right about the unfair advantage part, only it was because the army is so good at hosing Marines :evilgrin:.

Now a days, I still get it from the Fantasy crowd for wanting to run the Great Host of Chaos or wanting to play Storm of Magic, but that stems mainly, although in a few cases, not entirely, from the constant tournament practice the group seems engaged in. I can't say I blame them for only wanting to face armies they'll encounter at Crossroads since they do take the tournament scene seriously; I would be in the same boat if my schedule was not as haphazard as it is for Fantasy (it would also get me to expand and finish painting and basing my Chaos Warriors and Empire (I found my Battlemasters and got a few good deals from a friend).

Kuroi
11-10-2012, 09:50
I'm glad to see so many people who doesn't seem to have a problem with facing skaven or dark elves! :)


And Fasha, I'm sorry to hear about your situation o.O hopefully you will meet likeminded people some day which you can play enjoyable games with :) be it with Deamons or some other army..

Snake1311
11-10-2012, 10:13
That's certainly true, but sadly I hardly ever see them in the UK. Most people run the funline.

Dwarfs are very, very unpopular in the UK, so the 'most people' statement is more like '5 people run the funline'. :) If even that many. Good to know that if I get matched up agasint you in a tourney you will refuse and I will get an automatic 20-0, will keep this in mind :D

The same can be said for all you WE players, everyone spams 50+ shots, boooooooring.

I'm about worried about you saying your WH group fell out to bickering. Seems like the kind of thing more likely to have an impact on refusal to play rather than choice of army :/

zoggin-eck
11-10-2012, 12:00
I'm about worried about you saying your WH group fell out to bickering. Seems like the kind of thing more likely to have an impact on refusal to play rather than choice of army :/

Yeah, sounds like it's more to do with the people than one person's army choice. Shame, that.



The same can be said for all you WE players, everyone spams 50+ shots, boooooooring.


Ha ha, I'm planning my Wood Elf army right now, and realised I have about 50 old lead bowmen, so I guess I'm boooooooring! (We're not all that bad, honest. I dug up a few units of wardancers and models to use as treekin, too)

FashaTheDog
11-10-2012, 14:25
Kuroi, the main problem now is acceptance of Forgeworld lists with a quite understandable reason for it. I have not run into much of the standard army book bans in a while, hence my "now a days," bit. The listed situations were the extent of my "you play that army, no game for you, come back one year;" a handful of comments, a couple of tournaments, and a few pickup games here and there. It is not so bad as I was just listing all of what the OP asked for, I can usually get a game when I want and have a great community to play in.

Kuroi
11-10-2012, 16:01
Good :) I'm glad.

stonegiant
12-10-2012, 07:22
I hope you will find that it's the person, not the army choice that you should be wary of. I'd much rather play a nice-friendly-social-chit/chat-good banter- opponent / game with whatever army they had, (even Dark Elves or Grey Knights) than a mumbling body odour no banter Empire player...

Urgat
12-10-2012, 07:43
Banter? What's that?
"googles banter"
Ewww. Went through a few pages of the UD, I want no good banter people.

WizzyWarlock
12-10-2012, 07:47
Dwarfs are very, very unpopular in the UK, so the 'most people' statement is more like '5 people run the funline'. :) If even that many. Good to know that if I get matched up agasint you in a tourney you will refuse and I will get an automatic 20-0, will keep this in mind :D

The same can be said for all you WE players, everyone spams 50+ shots, boooooooring.
Okay, I tried not to, but I'm going to bite. You realise 50 shots is only 600pts? In a 2400pt battle that still leaves 1800pts for other stuff. I generally run 60 shots as I throw in 10 Waywatchers as well, but that's just the way the Wood Elves are. They reduce numbers through shooting so when the rather delicate combat troops find a target, they might actually be able to do something. If there was no counter to the shooting I'd agree with you, but there's plenty, and shooting alone isn't going to win a game. Dwarves on the other hand with their laser guided template weapons, hidden behind two hordes of T4 troops, are just a pain to deal with. While the Wood Elves might whittle a few models off your units before reaching combat, the Dwarves are destroying whole units before the enemy can even reach them. 8th Edition Warmachines are just so OTT.

Crymson
12-10-2012, 08:05
I will never voluntarily play vs a Dwarf army or a K'Daii, but that's about it. As much as it hurts to play vs Lizards/Skaven, playing lots of those games (and getting repeatedly smashed by both) did help me eventually work out how to beat them.

Geez, I'd just be glad to play against anyone!

Snake1311
12-10-2012, 10:22
Okay, I tried not to, but I'm going to bite. You realise 50 shots is only 600pts? In a 2400pt battle that still leaves 1800pts for other stuff. I generally run 60 shots as I throw in 10 Waywatchers as well, but that's just the way the Wood Elves are. They reduce numbers through shooting so when the rather delicate combat troops find a target, they might actually be able to do something. If there was no counter to the shooting I'd agree with you, but there's plenty, and shooting alone isn't going to win a game. Dwarves on the other hand with their laser guided template weapons, hidden behind two hordes of T4 troops, are just a pain to deal with. While the Wood Elves might whittle a few models off your units before reaching combat, the Dwarves are destroying whole units before the enemy can even reach them. 8th Edition Warmachines are just so OTT.

I said a minimum of 50 shots, its usually more. Sometimes up to 90.

How many S4 shots do you think are equivalent to a grudge thrower? A central hit happens around 50% of the time on a runed WM, and on a fully ranked unit (assuming your opponent is retarded enough to keep expensive fragile infantry in block formation) it does 21 hits on a 20mm unit and 15 on a 25mm, if you are cheeky with putting the hole in the corner of the base. Half of that (for hitting) is 10.5 and 7.5 - lets take the average, which is 9. Woodies will hit on 3s in short range, yes? So a mighty 14 glade guard can match the damage output of a S4 accuracy GT against tight blocks.

In a 1v1 situation, WE flat out outshoot dwarfs. In a meta situation, they do differently agaisnt different opponents, but WE are as much as a pain as dawi are.

You should do your math before you bite ;)

Daniel36
12-10-2012, 10:33
I'd play you, but only if you want to play a fun, laid-back game, preferably one with a theme! My next game isn't even going to be "legal" when it comes to my army list. But I have decided not to care anymore for that kind of stuff. Storm of Magic is even better for me. Warhammer isn't balanced.

So as long as you don't bring Skaven and say "Cheese is the theme, Skaven are like mice, they like cheese!" I would be perfectly fine.

stonegiant
12-10-2012, 15:54
Banter is good natured kidding...

Kayosiv
12-10-2012, 15:55
How many S4 shots do you think are equivalent to a grudge thrower? A central hit happens around 50% of the time on a runed WM, and on a fully ranked unit (assuming your opponent is retarded enough to keep expensive fragile infantry in block formation) it does 21 hits on a 20mm unit and 15 on a 25mm, if you are cheeky with putting the hole in the corner of the base. Half of that (for hitting) is 10.5 and 7.5 - lets take the average, which is 9. Woodies will hit on 3s in short range, yes? So a mighty 14 glade guard can match the damage output of a S4 accuracy GT against tight blocks.

In a 1v1 situation, WE flat out outshoot dwarfs. In a meta situation, they do differently agaisnt different opponents, but WE are as much as a pain as dawi are.

You should do your math before you bite ;)

Your mathhammer is flawed in many respects. You are assuming that a scattered shot hits 0 models 100% of the time, which isn't true even in situations where there is only 1 unit within 10" in all directions. You are also assuming that the wood elves are shooting at short range 100% of the time, which for the most part is never true on turn 1 and certainly not true at all times. Also, 14 glade guard is significantly more expensive than even a runed grudge thrower.

Even when talking about similar pointed core, such as Quarrelers vs glade guard, the dwarves armor and extra toughess evens out the wood elves increased accuracy. If they were to sit and shoot at each other it would be straight up even, with the dwarfs having the advantage if the elves started at more than 21 inches apart, which they do every time a game starts.

In general, people don't mind fighting wood elves because if they get to them, they win. Wood elves have a lot of painful shooting and are slippery but no match for even mediocre troops because they are frail.

If you get to dwarfs, you're in for a tough fight even after weathering all the shooting. There's nothing wrong with this, because dwarfs are much easier to catch. Wood elves have the mobility that makes them a challenge and dwarfs have the resilience that makes them a challenge. I think it's more a matter of perspective. A player can see victory in his grasp when he charges wood elves and makes it, even though the wood elf player was able to avoid him until turn 5. Charging a dwarf player on turn 3 and fighting a series of brutal combats to barely come out on top by turn 5 might be exactly the same as being shot at for two extra turns while you chased the wood elves around, but it gives you a very different perception of what happened.

DAGabriel
12-10-2012, 18:40
I will never voluntarily play vs a Dwarf army or a K'Daii, but that's about it. As much as it hurts to play vs Lizards/Skaven, playing lots of those games (and getting repeatedly smashed by both) did help me eventually work out how to beat them.

Hm, collecting and playing CDs makes me ask, have you often played against them? Do you mean fireborn or the destroyer? In general CDs are a middle tier army especially in minor games and there are many armies which are way more competitive.
BTW, when playing in a friendly group you only have to say "that army list is no fun to play against" and most people I know would say "hey, than IŽll try something new".
On the other hand, when I loose two or three times with my army against someone with an OTT or no-fun army list and him not wanting to hear, than is the time for the big guns (most people fear the multiple magma cannon much more than the destroyer) or to say I look for someone else to play with.

virre
12-10-2012, 18:59
I would love to play you ^^ Sent you a pm.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
12-10-2012, 19:05
I don't truly understand the obsession with WFB tournaments. There are other games that are balanced to have meaning in a tournament format.

I'll face anything once. Even a homebrew...

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2012, 19:12
Banter? What's that?
"googles banter"
Ewww. Went through a few pages of the UD, I want no good banter people.

LOL that's what you get for using UD... :p

On topic, I'm surprised at people not wanting to play DE or skaven. It's not like it's 7th edition and asking why people don't want to play your Daemons!

There are specific builds, no doubt, that annoy people but that's really true of just about any army. I appreciate that my beloved Ld bomb Slaanesh aren't exactly popular but I can always build a list without it. Chaos Dwarfs can be ******** annoying if you spam the good stuff but fine if you don't. Dwarfs don't have to gunline, ogres don't need to deathstar and so on.

But I can't imagine just refusing to play because an opponent plays a specific army, even chaos dwarfs. The mind boggles!

zoggin-eck
13-10-2012, 06:36
I don't truly understand the obsession with WFB tournaments. There are other games that are balanced to have meaning in a tournament format.


Ha, try reading an Australian forum. You'd swear it was the only way anyone had ever thought of playing the game.

Spiney Norman
13-10-2012, 13:55
I'm glad to see so many people who doesn't seem to have a problem with facing skaven or dark elves! :)


And Fasha, I'm sorry to hear about your situation o.O hopefully you will meet likeminded people some day which you can play enjoyable games with :) be it with Deamons or some other army..

My brother has a Skaven army which is basically a labour of love, it's maybe the worst designed Skaven army I have ever seen because he's sold out to the imagery of clan pestilens and won't take any non-pestilens units. Plaguemonk hordes, two plague furnaces, no grey seer, and You've got to admire someone's dedication to a theme when he brings two plagueclaw catapults and no HPA or Doomwheel...

At the end of the day you can make fun lists with any army and save your no-prisoners style list for the tourney scene. If you're a dark elf player and really love the hydra you've lovingly painted I'm good with that, but if you tell me that you love it soooooo much that you just have to field two of them, then the eyebrow is going up.

For example, I love my Slann (the ltd ed FW Slann from a few years ago), he is the best thing about my Lizardmen army to the point where I can't really imagine using the army without him, but he's a bit of a cheese factory in the current rules, so he's currently sworn off the lores of life and shadows, only ever takes the soul of stone discipline and never, ever brings the cupped hands, I get to field my favourite model and people don't hate me for it, everybody wins!

Snake1311
13-10-2012, 14:25
Hm, collecting and playing CDs makes me ask, have you often played against them? Do you mean fireborn or the destroyer? In general CDs are a middle tier army especially in minor games and there are many armies which are way more competitive.

Thats not really true, CDs get out of hand very very quickly if they are allowed all their toys. And he means the destroyer, it surprises me you even have to ask.

People are 'obsessed' with tournaments, because thats what they want and get out of the game. It confuses me when people complain about that - I don't particularly like painting, but I don't go into painting sections or threads and moan at people that what they do is boring :) a discussion based on the topic of powergaming is very relevant to tournie play.

jimbo2
13-10-2012, 15:06
Take out the Destroyer and the CD list is definitely a fair, mid-tier list. Sure dual Magma Cannons is a bit painful but they aren't that bad and compensate for the weaknesses in a lot of other parts of the list.

DAGabriel
13-10-2012, 21:08
Take out the Destroyer and the CD list is definitely a fair, mid-tier list. Sure dual Magma Cannons is a bit painful but they aren't that bad and compensate for the weaknesses in a lot of other parts of the list.

Perhaps that is my problem, in 8000 points of CDs (most of whom I still have to paint) I own there is no K`daii Destroyer and I love my overpriced and underachieving K`daii fireborn. Have to correct that oversight.

DaemonReign
13-10-2012, 21:31
Perhaps that is my problem, in 8000 points of CDs (most of whom I still have to paint)

That's a cool army dude. Once painted it's gonna be something to be real proud of. You shouldn't even concern yourself with which units are concidered what.

VAharleygirl
15-10-2012, 04:16
I've to admit, fighting Skavens has never been incredibly fun.
Dark Elves however, unless you pull the "stubborn pendant lord", I'd be fine playing a double hydra cauldron + whatever list. My Greenskins will take you on!

That depends - my Bretonnians love giving the Peasants rat-kabobs. Just avoid the green glowing bits.

popisdead
18-10-2012, 20:23
Sounds like you don't know many gamers in the area? I know I dislike playing people vs playing armies.

If someone has a Skaven army and it's their favourite army, they really like playing it, they like the fluff, models, I'll play and if i lose I will figure out how to adjust.

If a guy has a grey plastic army of whatever is the current internet list I will avoid 'him'.

Morax
19-10-2012, 17:05
Seems to me you have run across a rather similar issue to one I came across some time ago. For me it was a case of a differing of expectations. My gaming group at the time was fairly sizable and so when people came to the gaming table with different things in mind the game suffered. I prefer games of a highly competitive nature. I often sit with an army book and within the first 20 mins have picked it clean on the most effective units that pair with my style of play for the army. Those are then the units I like to field and I'm quite successful when I play with them. This can lead to other players not having fun when they play against what many consider a hard list. Now that I have a bit of a reputation in my local gaming stores many regular players know that when they face me they are in for a tactical challenge. For those that aren't overly familiar with my style of play, we have a brief discussion before squaring off. I try to find out what kind of experience they have with the hobby, what they like most about the hobby, if they have a fully painted army, all things that help me to know if their focus is on the gaming aspect or the hobbying aspect of Warhammer. With that I go construct a list. Gamers get a gamey list, hobbists get a themely list. I enjoy playing both and I find my opponents enjoy the game more this way too. For your gaming group it seems like you have some wanting a relaxed environment and some wanting one more exacting. That can be a rough environment if you don't have enough players of both so that everyone can play games that they are looking for. I would also try to find a few more gamers and integrate them into the group as a larger player base leads to a more content player base.