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thrawn
09-10-2012, 19:18
Before I spend my money I would like to ask this very open ended question.

I know there are pros and cons for both and that we can endlessly debate either or, but at a first glance, gut feeling, someon's pointing a gun to your head and you have to choose immediately . . . stop thinking just PICK!!! . . . type situation, what is your gut feeling?

skorczeny
09-10-2012, 19:27
Predator with lascannons. After that you can get a forgefiend with hades autocannons.

Please don't shoot.

Theocracity
09-10-2012, 19:40
My gut reaction was Forgefiend, but I understand the dilemma. I'm facing it myself.

What I eventually decided was Forgefiend for the smaller Allies list I'm developing (as it gives the most bang for the point-and-FOC buck), and Predator for when I eventually expand and will need the spare points and support abilities.

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 19:43
Both for me! When I can afford the model i'll have a fiend, predator, and some havocs.

AngelofSorrow
09-10-2012, 19:45
Fiend. Hands down. Wonderful kit to assemble and comes with some great conversion fodder too.


Ready for eternal war!

thrawn
09-10-2012, 20:33
so now your answers have confused me further! :)

i'm thinking to myself, for 180 points i can take 2 predators, one naked, one with lascannon side sponsors. that's 4 S7 AP4 shots and 2 S9 AP2 shoots vs. 8 S8 AP4 shots for eproximately the same points cost. however, the forgefiend has a better survivability with it's 5+ ward and It Will Not Die rule. then again, with 2 predators your opponent is forced to divide his fire power.

i just can't decide!

Daedalus81
09-10-2012, 20:36
so now your answers have confused me further! :)

i'm thinking to myself, for 180 points i can take 2 predators, one naked, one with lascannon side sponsors. that's 4 S7 AP4 shots and 2 S9 AP2 shoots vs. 8 S8 AP4 shots for eproximately the same points cost. however, the forgefiend has a better survivability with it's 5+ ward and It Will Not Die rule. then again, with 2 predators your opponent is forced to divide his fire power.

i just can't decide!

Preds don't have the forge ability either, which could be extremely handy for a priority target. But yea you're facing slightly less shots over more hullpoints or less but more durable hullpoints with more shots. Lower BS on the fiend should factor in there, too.

Aluinn
09-10-2012, 20:40
Forgefiend. I like the model, the rules strike me as quite good (invuln save and IWND go a long way towards making something that seems fragile not so fragile, I'd guess), and the Hades cannons are obviously impressive in both appearance and stats, not to mention versatile. Oh, and it isn't hit on rear armor in cc, which could actually save it sometimes.

Theocracity
09-10-2012, 20:43
As a general rule the more units you have the more choices your opponent needs to make. From that perspective, the two Predators are better. But I think that only works if they're similarly armed, which defeats your point about price.

If you have the points, I would just get both. Both have survivability options (don't discount AV13 and smoke launchers), and both shoot well do you're forcing your opponent to choose.

The_Klobb_Maniac
09-10-2012, 21:09
AC/LC pred is what.. 0 points or something? And awesome? 3 of those GG.

Souleater
09-10-2012, 22:04
Can the Forgefiend split fire at different units?

Blackwolf
09-10-2012, 22:16
For me it is which Chaos army am I playing. It's all down to the theme of that legion.

thrawn
09-10-2012, 23:20
Can the Forgefiend split fire at different units?

i don't have my codex infront of me, but i'm 99% confident no.

@Blackwolf

i agree, that the theme is just as important, however it seems to me that whoever will use the forgefiend will use the predator. iron warriors go without saying, as does black legion or word bearers. night lords i don't see using either extensively, and neither with alpha legion. after that the cult legions (emporer's children, death guard, world eaters and thousand sons) will use either or equally i think.

Kevlar
09-10-2012, 23:35
The plasma forgefiend would be awesome....if it could shoot farther than a bolter.

I think the forgefiend is pretty horribly overcosted for what it does. The new pricing of the predator combined with the fact that obliterators are no longer immune to pinning is pushing me in the rhino shaped direction.

RunepriestRidcully
10-10-2012, 11:22
Predators, as well as being iconic, are fairly cheap and effective, I myself take two, both with lascannon sponsons and warpfire gargoyles, I'm thinking of giving them havok launchers, ad a vindicator with Havok launcher and the gargoyles and you have a cheap yet effective heavy support.
Plus I prefer the predator model.

CrownAxe
10-10-2012, 11:43
Predators, as well as being iconic, are fairly cheap and effective, I myself take two, both with lascannon sponsons and warpfire gargoyles, I'm thinking of giving them havok launchers, ad a vindicator with Havok launcher and the gargoyles and you have a cheap yet effective heavy support.
Plus I prefer the predator model.

FYI you can't fire both the Demolisher and the Havoc Launcher because of the ordnance rule.

ChrisMurray
10-10-2012, 13:20
I voted for the forgefiend, purely because it looks different to anything else on the battlefield, whereas the predator is just another rhino based option.

thrawn
10-10-2012, 14:32
I'm seeing a trend here boys!

Seems like people pick the forgefiend for ascetic reasons, however for a point cost/efficiency perspective the predator is winning.

therefore i will likely buy the predator, probably two of them :)

BaloOrk
10-10-2012, 15:33
Forgefiend is cool, but predator is the more solid choice.

I like maulerfiend.

Dont forget to magnetize them preds, so you can use them as rhinos to.

Vedar
10-10-2012, 17:58
I hate to say it but none of the new models have that great rules or look good to me.

Drake is a pretty expensive (points and $) flyer that is not that great anti-flyer.

Forgefiend comes up short in my book. 36" and not 48" is pretty much a deal breaker, I play against too many gunline armies that hide in the corners. Waltzing 6" closer out in the open does not seem like a good plan. Sure you got a 5++ but it is still only AV12. Hit, Pen, Boom. The ectoplamsa cannon makes it short range and says please shoot all your anti-tank fire here as it walks slowly at the enemy. Should have been at least 25 points cheaper.

Maulerfiend is a different animal. It is cheap enough and fast enough to be a major threat to keep fire off your other units. I might have to proxy test this guy.

Pred just got cheaper. Park it behind some nice 4+ cover and you got some nice 48" love all game long. The budget AC/LAS pred is pretty good too.

My Iron warriors will be fielding, Havocs with Las, Pred with Las and Oblits in the heavy slot. My Warsmith will be manning the quad gun behind the defense line.

Jericho
10-10-2012, 18:06
I really think it comes down to whether you want a more menacing, demonic theme or a "spiky space marines" feel to your army. AC/LC Predator is good, but very static and not visually appealing. Where the Forgefiend with ectoplasm comes into its element is vs. Grey Knights... if you get to blast away before they do, your shots will really ruin their day. Then again, so would a Vindicator :) So maybe my vote should be for a Vindicator!

thrawn
10-10-2012, 19:35
i'm thinking for the points now that the predator with AC/LC combo is the way to go. seems really good for the points, and the purpose of heavy support is long distance shooting (typically, but not always) so i think that's my next purchase. thanks all!

The_Klobb_Maniac
10-10-2012, 19:42
It's worth noting that each is a bit different defensively as well. FFs are better against melta attacks and high strength(9-10) in general, preds are better against mid strength (s6-7.) Also, a forge fiend, unless I'm mistaken, can move and shoot everything effectively

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 19:44
Lets not jump the gun and say that the pred is more efficient.

The AC/LC pred is 115 - 65 points less than the Fiend. So we're looking at a 56% increase in cost. On all accounts the Fiend does 50% more damage to vehicles, while the pred may have a slight advantage with the AP2 of the lascannons. If we factor in daemonforge for 1 turn and average 6 turns of firing the fiend is 65% more effective. If the average life of a vehicle is 3 turns then its 75% and for 2 turns its 88%. It also has a higher potential output assuming you get lucky.

Two predators will have greater durability, but with the same loadout on each will cost 28% more than a single fiend.

Valorel
11-10-2012, 06:10
Two predators will have greater durability, but with the same loadout on each will cost 28% more than a single fiend.

and take 2 HS slots.
Also, the fiend is 60 points more than the AC/LC, not 65 ;)

Kevlar
11-10-2012, 06:21
Lets not jump the gun and say that the pred is more efficient.

The AC/LC pred is 115 - 65 points less than the Fiend. So we're looking at a 56% increase in cost. On all accounts the Fiend does 50% more damage to vehicles, while the pred may have a slight advantage with the AP2 of the lascannons. If we factor in daemonforge for 1 turn and average 6 turns of firing the fiend is 65% more effective. If the average life of a vehicle is 3 turns then its 75% and for 2 turns its 88%. It also has a higher potential output assuming you get lucky.

Two predators will have greater durability, but with the same loadout on each will cost 28% more than a single fiend.

The predator also has a lot better range. The fiend needs to be deployed farther forward, especially on the missions where you play long table edges. Most likely the predator would put down the forgefiend before it gets a shot off.

orkmiester
11-10-2012, 09:50
I'd say they are equal until you take the rest of your list into account...

the preds win on the tried and tested long range firepower stakes, but Mr forgefiend offers dual target capability with a lot of firepower in terms of how many shots it gets with its hades autocannons, its a far more expensive, but more durable GK rifleman dreadnought.

Personally preds are too static in how they play, they are effective yes... but where i play at least, the combo of vindicators and oblits is rather effective at getting rhinos to their targets. It may be agressive, but using vindicators is far easier and a pair of them causes more:eek::cries: than i care to mention

And of course if you take the forgefiend you have the shiny model syndrome to consider- there might be whines that they are OP:p

so it boils down to tried and tested preds, or take a punt on the new dino-bot (whoops:D) and see how he smashes face...

:angel:

Clang
12-10-2012, 02:49
Get the best of both worlds and convert a fiend model into a counts-as pred? Not a trivial project, but could be very cool.