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Latro_
10-10-2012, 00:51
So codex has been out a few days and we have all had a good look. I thought i'd make this thread and let it run for a week or so and update this post with the consensus of questions.

Then submit them to the powers that be (never know might work!), i'v had email replies from GW designers before.

I'v written up the obvious two.

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1. Can the Axe of Blind Fury artefact be taken by a Daemon Prince of Khorne? It stipulates a model must have 'The Mark of Khorne' which a Daemon Prince cannot take. If a prince cannot take this artefact what is the purpose of it granting rage to the user? as that is already a benefit of the Mark of Khorne.

2. Typhus can allow any Chaos Cultist units to become Plague Zombies but stipulates those units 'cannot purchase options'. Does this include the option to take additional cultists past the original ten? It currently strictly only allows units of ten Plague Zombies.

3. Can the Heldrake flex its neck, or is its arc of fire limited to 45 degrees straight ahead like a hull-mounted weapon?

4. A Powerfist is a specialist weapon but a Scourge is not. Does this restrict the bonus attacks for multiple weapons on Walkers that take a mix of such weapons?

5. Are a Plague Champion's Plague Knife, a WarpSmith's Power Axe, A Dark Apostle's Power Maul and a Sorceror/Aspiring Sorceror's Force Weapons considered Close Combat Weapons for the purposes of being exchanged for other Melee Weapons from the wargear list?

6. Can a Warpsmith fire both his Mechatendril weapons, or one Mechatendril and one other weapon as part of Overwatch?

7. How many attacks do a pair of mechatendril grant? 1/2 or 2/4?

8. If Kharn the Betrayer rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, his attacks automatically hit a friendly model. Can this be re-rolled from rules like Hatred or Preferred Enemy? (Debatable.)

9. If Kharn the Betrayer is engaged in a challenge, does he still hit friendly models with the Betrayer rule?

10. What happens when Abaddon rolls a Dark Apotheosis result on the Chaos Boons table? Does he gain all four "Daemon of..." rules? Does he then have Hatred against Daemons from all gods?

11. Do Special Characters with a specific Warlord trait included in their rules always use only that one? Can they choose to roll for a random one instead of/in addition to their standard Warlord trait? (IMHO the answer is clear, but I've seen the question asked several times.)

12. If a Cultist squad is upgraded to Plague Zombies, can you add more numbers to the unit or are they stuck at 10?

13. If a Chaos Lord is mounted on a bike, can he swap the bike's combi-bolter for another weapon from one of the wargear lists? For example, can a Chaos Lord on bike swap the combi-bolter for a combi-melta from the Ranged Weapons list?

14. If a Helbrute has no shooting weapons, what happens if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed chart? Does it just stand there, bellowing angrily?

15. Can vehicles with the Daemon special rule use the 5+ invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits?

16. If a vehicle already has an upgrade that is also found on the Vehicle Equipment List, and it has access to that list, can it purchase a second instance of that upgrade? For example, can a Chaos Rhino purchase a second combi-bolter, or can a Defiler upgrade its twin heavy flamer to a Havoc launcher and then purchase another Havoc launcher from the equipment list?

17. Can Lasher Tendrils be removed by a Weapon Destroyed result?

18. Does Lucius' whip count as a second hand weapon?


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Nurgling Chieftain
10-10-2012, 00:58
Can the Heldrake flex its neck, or is its arc of fire limited to 45 degrees straight ahead like a hull-mounted weapon?

A Powerfist is a specialist weapon but a Scourge is not. Does this restrict the bonus attacks for multiple weapons on Walkers that take a mix of such weapons?

Battleworthy Arts
10-10-2012, 00:59
Can Abaddon join a marked unit?

Charax
10-10-2012, 01:25
Are a Plague Champion's Plague Knife, a WarpSmith's Power Axe, A Dark Apostle's Power Maul and a Sorceror/Aspiring Sorceror's Force Weapons considered Close Combat Weapons for the purposes of being exchanged for other Melee Weapons from the wargear list?

Can a Warpsmith fire both his Mechatendril weapons, or one Mechatendril and one other weapon as part of Overwatch?

wyvirn
10-10-2012, 01:34
How many attacks do a pair of mechatendril grant? 1/2 or 2/4?

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 02:55
What happens when a Deamon Prince rolls 'become a deamon prince' on the boon table?

shadekiller
10-10-2012, 03:14
@ Ehlijen

Daemon prince do not have the Champion of chaos special rule and thus do not roll on the chaos boon table.

Cheexsta
10-10-2012, 03:55
Here are some that have come up in my readings or on forums. Many of them can be solved with simple common sense, others have answers tucked away in the rules. Either way, it'd be great if GW could answer these officially. I've avoided adding questions already asked in this thread.
If Kharn the Betrayer rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, his attacks automatically hit a friendly model. Can this be re-rolled from rules like Hatred or Preferred Enemy? (Debatable.)
If Kharn the Betrayer is engaged in a challenge, does he still hit friendly models with the Betrayer rule?
What happens when Abaddon rolls a Dark Apotheosis result on the Chaos Boons table? Does he gain all four "Daemon of..." rules? Does he then have Hatred against Daemons from all gods?
Do Special Characters with a specific Warlord trait included in their rules always use only that one? Can they choose to roll for a random one instead of/in addition to their standard Warlord trait? (IMHO the answer is clear, but I've seen the question asked several times.)
If a Cultist squad is upgraded to Plague Zombies, can you add more numbers to the unit or are they stuck at 10?
If a Chaos Lord is mounted on a bike, can he swap the bike's combi-bolter for another weapon from one of the wargear lists? For example, can a Chaos Lord on bike swap the combi-bolter for a combi-melta from the Ranged Weapons list?
If a Helbrute has no shooting weapons, what happens if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed chart? Does it just stand there, bellowing angrily?
Can vehicles with the Daemon special rule use the 5+ invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits?
If a vehicle already has an upgrade that is also found on the Vehicle Equipment List, and it has access to that list, can it purchase a second instance of that upgrade? For example, can a Chaos Rhino purchase a second combi-bolter, or can a Defiler upgrade its twin heavy flamer to a Havoc launcher and then purchase another Havoc launcher from the equipment list?
Can Lasher Tendrils be removed by a Weapon Destroyed result?

Ulrig
10-10-2012, 04:31
Under Chaos Terminators it says...

• Any Chaos Terminator may choose one
of the following three options:
o Replace power weapon with
one of the following:
- Lightning claw
- Power fist
-Chain fist
o Replace his combi-bolter with a
combi-flarner, -melta or -plasma
o Replace his combi-bolter and power weapon
with a pair of lightning claws

So does this prevent for example, taking a power fist and a combi weapon on the same terminator that is not a champion?

BaloOrk
10-10-2012, 04:55
1. Helbrute - Crazed result - Fire frenzy.
If already immobilised, does it lose a weapon? if already immobilesed, will it recover from the damage at end of turn?

2. Lucius and Typhus have special attacks in the assault phase that has the Ignores Cover special rule, since coversaves already cant be taken in close combat, are these attacks treated as shooting hits? (am i missing something, cause i dont understand why Ignores Cover is there in the first place, kinda same thing with axe of blind fury and double Rage:wtf:)

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 05:20
Does Lucius' whip count as a second hand weapon?

Charistoph
10-10-2012, 05:35
Why do the rules like Master of Traitors only affect the Primary Detachment, and not the Secondary Detachment if they are Allies?

shakedown47
10-10-2012, 06:13
If a model is using the Black Mace and suffers an unsaved wound as a result of rolling a 1 when determing the number of extra attacks due to the Daemon Weapon special rule, does he then have to take a toughness test and risk being ID'd?

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 06:59
@ Ehlijen

Daemon prince do not have the Champion of chaos special rule and thus do not roll on the chaos boon table.

I thought there was a psychic power that could make any one model roll on the table?

Chrysis
10-10-2012, 07:06
I thought there was a psychic power that could make any one model roll on the table?

There is, but you have to reroll the Daemon Prince result. Although as it's worded as a reroll it's then subject to the "can't reroll a reroll" rule which makes it technically possible for the Daemon Prince to roll Dark Apotheosis. But at that point the FAQ is going to be "If I roll Dark Apotheosis on Boon of Mutation do I have to keep rerolling until I get something else?" and the answer is almost certainly going to be yes (even though the rules say no.)

ehlijen
10-10-2012, 07:16
Ah, ok. Nevermind then.

blackcherry
10-10-2012, 07:39
Can Abaddon join a marked unit?

He is counted as having all 4 marks, so yes.

feelnopain666
10-10-2012, 07:59
-the hellbrutre has no acess to the vehicle options. it is an omission? since the last codex that my dreads have an ilegal configuration (havoc launcher)
-why does obliterators have acess to mark of slaanesh?
-where's the Land Raider "infernal device"?
-where's Gods-dedicated vehicles rules?

Cheexsta
10-10-2012, 09:07
He is counted as having all 4 marks, so yes.
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

At any given time, Abaddon has at least three different Marks of Chaos to the unit he is joining. What you say would make sense if the rule was worded differently (e.g. "...may only join units with the same or no Mark of Chaos."), but the difference in wording is enough to suggest otherwise. I doubt anyone will bother playing it like that, though...

What I find more amusing is the possibility that if he turns into a Daemon Prince, he ends up hating all other (aligned) Daemons.


-the hellbrutre has no acess to the vehicle options. it is an omission? since the last codex that my dreads have an ilegal configuration (havoc launcher)
-why does obliterators have acess to mark of slaanesh?
-where's the Land Raider "infernal device"?
-where's Gods-dedicated vehicles rules?
1. That isn't uncommon in the transition to a new ruleset. Just ask Squat players how they feel.
2. Good point, it is rather useless.
3 & 4. They don't exist. You make it sound like they're supposed to?

Chrysis
10-10-2012, 10:46
If a model is using the Black Mace and suffers an unsaved wound as a result of rolling a 1 when determing the number of extra attacks due to the Daemon Weapon special rule, does he then have to take a toughness test and risk being ID'd?

No, you don't suffer a wound from the weapon, you just suffer a wound.

Here's my question. A grenade is a weapon. Can I really swap Krak grenades for Artefacts/Ranged Weapons from the armoury?

feelnopain666
10-10-2012, 10:50
1. That isn't uncommon in the transition to a new ruleset. Just ask Squat players how they feel.
3 & 4. They don't exist. You make it sound like they're supposed to?
1-since I've started 40k in the end of 2nd edition, i now that (PS: im also a SoB player). Is just that I find it weird that the dread lost the havoc launcher in the previous codex, and now it loses every single option that isnt weapons.
3&4-They did exist. thats another thing missing in the previous and the current codex. if units that were cults by themselves (raptors, obliterators, etc), now can be marked by one of the 4 powers, why cant the vehicles?

MvS
10-10-2012, 12:17
Daemon Princes can take some Daemon Weapons, but as they don't have Marks they can't take the weapons that require a specific God's Mark - even if they are Daemon Princes of that God. Is this correct?

If Daemon Princes can be given Daemon Weapons, why are Daemon Weapons lost if a character rolls the Dark Apotheosis Boon and turns into a Daemon Prince during a game?

Daemon Princes can suffer Perils of the Warp now...?

Scammel
10-10-2012, 12:17
They did exist. thats another thing missing in the previous and the current codex. if units that were cults by themselves (raptors, obliterators, etc), now can be marked by one of the 4 powers, why cant the vehicles?

Because of a conscious decision made by the writers. It doesn't so much constitute an FAQ as much as a request for an outright update, which they're not going to respond to.

Charax
10-10-2012, 12:18
The purpose of a FAQ is to answer questions about ambiguous wording or conflicting rules, it's not to quiz the designers about how/why they made certain design decisions or background issues. If you want to email them about god-specific vehicles or Slaaneshi Obliterators go ahead, but it's not really an appropriate question for this thread.

A.T.
10-10-2012, 12:19
-why does obliterators have acess to mark of slaanesh?They can still use the bonus against blind, JotWW, and so on. It's priced appropriately for the limited uses - there is no harm to it.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 12:29
Here are some that have come up in my readings or on forums. Many of them can be solved with simple common sense, others have answers tucked away in the rules. Either way, it'd be great if GW could answer these officially. I've avoided adding questions already asked in this thread.
If Kharn the Betrayer rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, his attacks automatically hit a friendly model. Can this be re-rolled from rules like Hatred or Preferred Enemy? (Debatable.)
Pretty sure its a no
If Kharn the Betrayer is engaged in a challenge, does he still hit friendly models with the Betrayer rule?
Pretty sure since that is what the mace will do, too
What happens when Abaddon rolls a Dark Apotheosis result on the Chaos Boons table? Does he gain all four "Daemon of..." rules? Does he then have Hatred against Daemons from all gods?
Do Special Characters with a specific Warlord trait included in their rules always use only that one? Can they choose to roll for a random one instead of/in addition to their standard Warlord trait? (IMHO the answer is clear, but I've seen the question asked several times.)
If a Cultist squad is upgraded to Plague Zombies, can you add more numbers to the unit or are they stuck at 10?
If a Chaos Lord is mounted on a bike, can he swap the bike's combi-bolter for another weapon from one of the wargear lists? For example, can a Chaos Lord on bike swap the combi-bolter for a combi-melta from the Ranged Weapons list?
No he is buying gear. He can buy a bike but not switch the bikes options
If a Helbrute has no shooting weapons, what happens if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed chart? Does it just stand there, bellowing angrily?
Probably
Can vehicles with the Daemon special rule use the 5+ invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits?
Yes - why not?
If a vehicle already has an upgrade that is also found on the Vehicle Equipment List, and it has access to that list, can it purchase a second instance of that upgrade? For example, can a Chaos Rhino purchase a second combi-bolter, or can a Defiler upgrade its twin heavy flamer to a Havoc launcher and then purchase another Havoc launcher from the equipment list?
No - it states that explicitly
Can Lasher Tendrils be removed by a Weapon Destroyed result?
Not a weapon


minimum 10

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 12:30
No, you don't suffer a wound from the weapon, you just suffer a wound.

Here's my question. A grenade is a weapon. Can I really swap Krak grenades for Artefacts/Ranged Weapons from the armoury?

You aren't swapping items with champions according to the current rules. You are allowed "one of each of the following". So you can take whatever you want if you are willing to pay the points.

Cheeslord
10-10-2012, 13:04
Note: currently questions 2 and 10 appear to be the same...

Mark.

Chrysis
10-10-2012, 13:21
You aren't swapping items with champions according to the current rules. You are allowed "one of each of the following". So you can take whatever you want if you are willing to pay the points.

What on earth are you talking about?

Let's give an example. I have a Dark Apostle. A Dark Apostle may take items from the Artefacts section of the armoury. To take an item from the Artefacts section of the armoury, he has to replace an existing weapon as per the rules in the armoury. A Krak grenade is a weapon according to the main rulebook. Can the Dark Apostle swap his Krak Grenades for the Burning Brand, thus retaining both his Bolt Pistol and Power maul for the extra attack in Close Combat while sacrificing his useless grenade (because the maul does everything the grenade does)?

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 13:27
Cheeselord- I think you mean 2 and 12.

Here's one: The Wargear list states that you have to 'swap' a weapon when you take it as an upgrade. Does this mean a lord taking a combi-weapon would have to swap his bolt pistol or chainsword and thus loose the +1 A bonus for having two weapons in assault?
Edit: are you guys saying I can just swap my crack grenades in order to keep my pistol!? Don't see why a lord shouldn't carry 3 weapons as well as grenades like a standard chaos marine can.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 13:42
What on earth are you talking about?

Let's give an example. I have a Dark Apostle. A Dark Apostle may take items from the Artefacts section of the armoury. To take an item from the Artefacts section of the armoury, he has to replace an existing weapon as per the rules in the armoury. A Krak grenade is a weapon according to the main rulebook. Can the Dark Apostle swap his Krak Grenades for the Burning Brand, thus retaining both his Bolt Pistol and Power maul for the extra attack in Close Combat while sacrificing his useless grenade (because the maul does everything the grenade does)?

What page are you finding this rule on? The unit entries don't state that the character/champ is exchanging anything - except in the case of terminator armor.

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 13:54
Edit: I've tried to remove this image but can't seem to. If it is inappropriate would a moderator please remove it for me.

Squallish
10-10-2012, 13:59
9.If a vehicle already has an upgrade that is also found on the Vehicle Equipment List, and it has access to that list, can it purchase a second instance of that upgrade? For example, can a Chaos Rhino purchase a second combi-bolter, or can a Defiler upgrade its twin heavy flamer to a Havoc launcher and then purchase another Havoc launcher from the equipment list?
No - it states that explicitly

Where exactly does it say that? Because I do not see it in there anywere.

I was considering going 2 Havoc Launchers + TL-Heavy Bolter in case he gets Immobilized he could threaten hordes.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 13:59
Ah I see - I was looking at only the right side of the page for some reason. More coffee is required.

Also you may want to remove that image, Graystoak.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 14:00
Where exactly does it say that? Because I do not see it in there anywere.

Oh I see what you are saying. Nevermind me!

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 14:09
Ah I see - I was looking at only the right side of the page for some reason. More coffee is required.

Also you may want to remove that image, Graystoak.

Are we not allowed to put up pictures of published material? Can't seem to edit it out so I may have to remove the whole post. Sorry Mods.

Tremorion
10-10-2012, 14:15
- Defilers and Mauler Fiends both have twin power fists. Is the extra attack for these weapons included in their profile?
- Can Terminator Champions take the upgrades available to other Terminators or can they only take them from the Terminator wargear list?
- When a character is transformed to a Daemon Prince, which of his upgrades and equipment does he keep?

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 14:26
Lets see if I can answer these correctly D:



- Defilers and Mauler Fiends both have twin power fists. Is the extra attack for these weapons included in their profile?
I assumed its like the bolt pistol / ccw - not included in the profile
- Can Terminator Champions take the upgrades available to other Terminators or can they only take them from the Terminator wargear list?
Pretty sure that is a no otherwise you would have two different point costs for the same weapons
- When a character is transformed to a Daemon Prince, which of his upgrades and equipment does he keep?
I think the book pretty clearly states this

Valorel
10-10-2012, 14:52
- How many bonus attacks give the 2 magma cutters to the maulerfiend? 1/2 or 2/4? I.E: is the bonus for each cutter or for as many cutters as a model have?

Other questions are more wishlist of typos/mistakes in the codex: murder sword not a demon weapon, unability to give the axe to a Khorne prince, options for terminators, frag grenades on warp talons, 2/4 spells of the lore of Tzeentch ^^. Not questions, just hopes I know will be broken ;)

Oh, I've got another one: the helbrute is 100 points in the french codex, 105 in the english one if I'm not mistaken. Which one is right? (I fear it's the english one)

Latro_
10-10-2012, 17:26
Well i think we'v covered the main ones unless there are any more? I'll compile em and send em off (probably to a spam folder somewhere) but hey gotta try.

Can't post any replies from GW as its against forum rules but if i get a reply i'll say what they said in general terms.

Jayden63
10-10-2012, 17:33
On walkers like the hellbrute and defiler it doesn't matter that the power scourge isn't a specialist weapon. Walkers get a bonus attack for every melee weapon they have past the first.

My question is - Are Noise Champions considered Noise Marines for the purpose of trading in its bolter for a CCW or even getting a sonic blaster?

Hengist
10-10-2012, 17:44
I've only just bought the book, and may have failed to notice where this is explained elsewhere, but Dark Apotheosis is rather ambiguously phrased: I take it that "If the champion had a Mark of Chaos, the Daemon Prince is instead a Daemon of the same Chaos god" should be read to mean "becomes a Daemon Prince with the 'Daemon of [GOD]' upgrade"?

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 17:47
I've only just bought the book, and may have failed to notice where this is explained elsewhere, but Dark Apotheosis is rather ambiguously phrased: I take it that "If the champion had a Mark of Chaos, the Daemon Prince is instead a Daemon of the same Chaos god" should be read to mean "becomes a Daemon Prince with the 'Daemon of [GOD]' upgrade"?

Its worded that way I think, because if you don't have a mark you become a daemon prince without a mark.

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 18:17
My question is - Are Noise Champions considered Noise Marines for the purpose of trading in its bolter for a CCW or even getting a sonic blaster?
Damn that's true! It should say "any model"! Grr. I presume that's an error (as it wasn't prohibited in the last codex) so good question! Makes it all the more annoying cult upgrades aren't in the armoury.

Some more questions:

- Is the +1A for two close combat weapons included in the profile of the maulerfiend/defiler? (Tremorion already pointed this out, I presume not).
- Does a third power fist confer an additional +1A on a defiler? (I presume yes otherwise what's the point but the rules on page 24 explicitly say "no").
- Some units say "for every 10 models in the unit" one may have a heavy/special weapon. Others say one "per 10 models" may have a heavy/special weapon. Are these synonymous or is the latter intended to mean you can have a heavy/special per 10 or fraction thereof? I.e. can I have six noise marines with a blastmaster?

sayles78
10-10-2012, 18:27
This should be No. 1 in the list:

Who really wrote Codex: CSM? Cruddace or PK?


EDIT: Actually... that's not fair on PK. It's not quite as bad as Cruddace's Masterpiece.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 18:51
Does a third power fist confer an additional +1A on a defiler? (I presume yes otherwise what's the point but the rules on page 24 explicitly say "no").


Walkers have a rule in the BRB that covers ccws and it states that ANY ccw beyond the first confers +1A. Defiler can get up to 7A on the charge.

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 19:27
- Some units say "for every 10 models in the unit" one may have a heavy/special weapon. Others say one "per 10 models" may have a heavy/special weapon. Are these synonymous or is the latter intended to mean you can have a heavy/special per 10 or fraction thereof? I.e. can I have six noise marines with a blastmaster?

They are intentionally worded differently so for example Plague marines can carry 2 special weapons whether the squad is 5 or 20 while regular chaos marines need to reach 10 to carry a heavy or additional special. But you make a good point with the Noise marines, one per ten is a bit ambiguous as it dosent specifically say you need the full ten to carry one!?

On the subject of special weapons, who decided a plasma pistol was worth more than a meltagun or combi weapon? The reason no one ever uses them is because they should be 10 pts max.

Murphey
10-10-2012, 19:54
If I were to include a short errata to this hypothetical FAQ, I would have this:

Page 29, Chaos Boon Table: add note, "Demon Princes reroll and ignore all Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results on the table."
Page 41, Mutated Beyond Reason: change, "At the beginning of each Fight sub-phase..." with "At the beginning of every player turn..."
Page 69, Axe of Blind Fury: change, "Models with the Mark of Khorne only." to "Models with Mark of Khorne and Demons of Khorne only."
Page 94, Demon Prince: Increase Leadership value to 10.
Page 94, Demon Prince Wargear: add Frag Grenades.
Page 94, Demon Prince Special Rules: add Eternal Warrior.

That's my own feelings on it. I do think the things above were either oversights, or the creators didn't fully realize the impact of their design initially, and they should probably be changed/fixed.

For instance: Demon Princes lack Eternal Warrior. Chances are that, when their entry was created, the 6th edition beta rules for Demons included Eternal Warrior, or were assumed to. First codices of new additions often have errors referring to rules that don't exist, or rule details that don't actually work the way implied. (4th ed Tyranid codex Shieldwall is a perfect example.) I find it tremendously hard to believe that the writers wanted a T5 MC that can easily cost over 300 points to be so easily killed, especially considering the fact that they came stock with Eternal Warrior previously. (And that Demon Princes and all other demons in the Demon codex have it, etc.)

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 19:55
They are intentionally worded differently so for example Plague marines can carry 2 special weapons weather the squad is 5 or 20 while regular chaos marines need to reach 10 to carry a heavy or additional special. But you make a good point with the Noise marines, one per ten is a bit ambiguous as it dosent specifically say you need the full ten to carry one!?

On the subject of special weapons, who decided a plasma pistol was worth more than a meltagun or combi weapon? The reason no one ever uses them is because they should be 10 pts max.

Plague marines do not have a "per 10 models" rule. They simply may have 2 models switch weapons. There really doesn't seem to be an ambiguity with the rules.

A plasma pistol is worth more than a melta, because it allows +1A with a ccw. Its better than a combi, because it stays a plasma weapon...

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 19:58
For instance: Demon Princes lack Eternal Warrior. Chances are that, when their entry was created, the 6th edition beta rules for Demons included Eternal Warrior, or were assumed to. First codices of new additions often have errors referring to rules that don't exist, or rule details that don't actually work the way implied. (4th ed Tyranid codex Shieldwall is a perfect example.) I find it tremendously hard to believe that the writers wanted a T5 MC that can easily cost over 300 points to be so easily killed, especially considering the fact that they came stock with Eternal Warrior previously. (And that Demon Princes and all other demons in the Demon codex have it, etc.)

I'm sorry, but we don't need everyone to have frags and eternal warrior. Not giving the nurgle DP +1T keeps him from becoming the only DP anyone would take.

MagicHat
10-10-2012, 20:06
Can vehicles with the Daemon special rule use the 5+ invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits?


Yes - why not?


Invulnerable saves is taken against wounds suffered so RAW, glancing or penning can't be saved by ++ saves. Cover specifies that it works.
However, since DE can take invulnerable saves, the RAI is quite obvious.

Here is one: Can a forgefiend with ectoplasm cannons take their invulnerable save and vehicle 4+ save against gets hot.

Murphey
10-10-2012, 20:12
I'm sorry, but we don't need everyone to have frags and eternal warrior. Not giving the nurgle DP +1T keeps him from becoming the only DP anyone would take.

Well, if one wants him to be a viable choice, I honestly can't see any other way. Not to bog down this thread on a "what's good and what's not" tangent, but having something that strikes at I1 when charging into cover and has no Eternal Warrior is just asking for trouble. With his extreme point cost, it's almost untenable. I truly do not think that they intended for him to have no Eternal Warrior, but rather they assumed (much like the invuln save is not listed) that it was part and package of the Demon special rule. I could certainly be wrong, but that is my opinion.

Lord Inquisitor
10-10-2012, 20:15
Walkers have a rule in the BRB that covers ccws and it states that ANY ccw beyond the first confers +1A. Defiler can get up to 7A on the charge.
Good catch! I missed that. Nice.


They are intentionally worded differently so for example Plague marines can carry 2 special weapons weather the squad is 5 or 20 while regular chaos marines need to reach 10 to carry a heavy or additional special. But you make a good point with the Noise marines, one per ten is a bit ambiguous as it dosent specifically say you need the full ten to carry one!?
The wording for plague marines is crystal clear, as is the wording for cultists and chosen and so on. Only the "1 per 10" wording is a bit curious.


On the subject of special weapons, who decided a plasma pistol was worth more than a meltagun or combi weapon? The reason no one ever uses them is because they should be 10 pts max.
Because back in 4th edition plasma was the king of guns. :rolleyes:

IrishDelinquent
10-10-2012, 20:18
Well, if one wants him to be a viable choice, I honestly can't see any other way. Not to bog down this thread on a "what's good and what's not" tangent, but having something that strikes at I1 when charging into cover and has no Eternal Warrior is just asking for trouble. With his extreme point cost, it's almost untenable. I truly do not think that they intended for him to have no Eternal Warrior, but rather they assumed (much like the invuln save is not listed) that it was part and package of the Demon special rule. I could certainly be wrong, but that is my opinion.

Man, being I1 with no assault grenades or Eternal Warrior?! It's like you're a Tyranid or something! :rolleyes:

No offense truly meant (makes no sense why this is the ONLY daemon without Eternal Warrior) but it seems like the no-grenades complaint is a bit too much. I do think that the Daemon Prince took a bit too strong a hit this edition, but the statline change could prove worth it.

Back on topic, I would like to see an errata regarding two things: The Daemon Engines should be equipped with Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (avoid the I1), and Plague Zombies should not be allowed to take any options besides extra members for the squad.

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 20:22
Back on topic, I would like to see an errata regarding two things: The Daemon Engines should be equipped with Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (avoid the I1),


Walkers ignore unwieldy.

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 21:04
Plague marines do not have a "per 10 models" rule. They simply may have 2 models switch weapons. There really doesn't seem to be an ambiguity with the rules.

A plasma pistol is worth more than a melta, because it allows +1A with a ccw. Its better than a combi, because it stays a plasma weapon...

Er, yea that's what I said in the very post you just quoted!
I know how plague marines work, I was responding to the guy who was questioning how noise marines work, hence the remark about ambiguity as its worded 'differently' to the plaguemarine, berserker and chaos marine entry.

And having a +1A bonus from a plasma pistol is a moot point when your already carrying a bolt pistol & chainsword. If you can also carry a meltagun for 10 points (say in place of your boltgun), why would you pay 15 for a weapon with one less strength and AP and without the melta rule?

wyvirn
10-10-2012, 21:09
Umm Gunslinger rule?

Daedalus81
10-10-2012, 21:15
Er, yea that's what I said in the very post you just quoted!
I know how plague marines work, I was responding to the guy who was questioning how noise marines work, hence the remark about ambiguity as its worded 'differently' to the plaguemarine, berserker and chaos marine entry.

And having a +1A bonus from a plasma pistol is a moot point when your already carrying a bolt pistol & chainsword. If you can also carry a meltagun for 10 points (say in place of your boltgun), why would you pay 15 for a weapon with one less strength and AP and without the melta rule?

Well, it was ambiguously worded. :)

Because bezerkers, raptors, and the apostle don't come with a boltgun. CSM don't come with a ccw so you need to swap your boltgun for it or pay.

Graystoak
10-10-2012, 21:21
Umm Gunslinger rule?

That's the most sensible answer I've heard yet. Sadly no one in the chaos codex has it and it generally states that you have to swap your bolt pistol for one. I'm just saying that when you look at the other squad options for special weapons it looks kinda overpriced, especially when compared with a meltagun that is an assault weapon, has better S & AP allows you to retain your pistol and is cheaper.
I know there are bigger issues and I'm going on a bit now but it's annoyed me for the last 2 codex's & I was hoping they'd fix it so we would see more plasma pistols!

@Daedalus, I see what you did there, lol!

MagicHat
10-10-2012, 21:44
That's the most sensible answer I've heard yet. Sadly no one in the chaos codex has it and it generally states that you have to swap your bolt pistol for one. I'm just saying that when you look at the other squad options for special weapons it looks kinda overpriced, especially when compared with a meltagun that is an assault weapon, has better S & AP allows you to retain your pistol and is cheaper.
I know there are bigger issues and I'm going on a bit now but it's annoyed me for the last 2 codex's & I was hoping they'd fix it so we would see more plasma pistols!

@Daedalus, I see what you did there, lol!

Anyone with two pistols automatically have the gunslinger rule, so most models choosing weapons from the ranged weapon table can take two PP. It is overcosted for what you get, but there you go.
It is especially funny for Raptors. Buy a meltagun in addition to your BP/CCW, or replace your BP with a PP.
I can't believe that little gold nugget is still in the box.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-10-2012, 23:20
Under Chaos Terminators it says...

Any Chaos Terminator may choose one
of the following three options:
o Replace power weapon with
one of the following:
- Lightning claw
- Power fist
-Chain fist
o Replace his combi-bolter with a
combi-flarner, -melta or -plasma
o Replace his combi-bolter and power weapon
with a pair of lightning claws

So does this prevent for example, taking a power fist and a combi weapon on the same terminator that is not a champion?

Actually that one was kind of already answered on GW's Facebook page. They wrote the rule goofy. They didn't intend to change anything from the previous book on termie loadouts.

You're supposed to be able to get both, if you want.

Charax
10-10-2012, 23:43
I don't think I'll be printing out a copy of GW's Facebook page to take to a game, so let's see if the random guy answering their messages got it right and get the to put it in the FAQ anyway.

While we're at it, can a Forgefiend have a head Ectoplasma cannon if it's armed with Hades Autocannons? Seems obvious, but the wording's a little clumsy (can you have an Additional ectoplasma cannon if you don't have ones for it to be in addition to?) and every FAQ includes a couple of easy questions, so throw them that one.

malisteen
11-10-2012, 04:47
A character can't join a unit with a different mark. Abaddon has all four marks. Does this mean he can join units regardless of mark, since no matter what mark they may have, he has it? Or does it mean that he can't join units with any mark, since no unit will have all the same marks he does?

totgeboren
11-10-2012, 07:23
I have a question for the FAQ.

How many times are you allowed to reroll "Spawnhood" and "Dark Apotheosis" if you roll them as a result from purchasing a Gift of Mutation? Is the normal rule of not allowing rerolls of rerolls waived in this case?

Minsc
11-10-2012, 09:44
How many attacks do a Maulerfiend with two sets of magmacutters get? 1/2 or 2/4?
If it's only 1/2, then why do the codex explicitly mention that the Maulerfiend has "two sets of", instead of just saying "magmacutters"?.


How many times are you allowed to reroll "Spawnhood" and "Dark Apotheosis" if you roll them as a result from purchasing a Gift of Mutation? Is the normal rule of not allowing rerolls of rerolls waived in this case?

I'm pretty sure the "never reroll a reroll" doesn't come into affect here.

Graystoak
11-10-2012, 09:45
Don't think that's so much a re-roll as a 'you can't have that option'. Kinda like a level 1 Psyker rolling a level 2 power.

Noticed something else last night.
I was surprised to see a couple of the special characters don't have a warlord trait (Fabius and Lucius I think). I guess they just roll as normal. Is that because they don't have to be a warlord? And if you took say Huron and Typhus could you choose which trait was prevalent?

MvS
11-10-2012, 10:14
I'm sorry, but we don't need everyone to have frags and eternal warrior. Not giving the nurgle DP +1T keeps him from becoming the only DP anyone would take.


Well, if one wants him to be a viable choice, I honestly can't see any other way... {snip} ...having something that strikes at I1 when charging into cover and has no Eternal Warrior is just asking for trouble. With his extreme point cost, it's almost untenable.

Although I think the "if it isn't all powerful in every way it's useless" approach to army lists is stupid, I have to say that I agree with that DP without Eternal Warrior seems to be a problem, or perhaps mistake. At the very least, it's definitely worth clarifying.

Besides all the reasons Murphey has listed, with the new allies rules is might prove more tempting to take a DP from the Daemon Codex (along with an HQ and Troop choice), because it has as many boosts as the C:CSM DP but with a lesser statline.

I don't know, it just sits a little uncomfortably. Although as each Codex is a rulebook unto itself, this may have been deliberate, even if it is inconsistent.

Daedalus81
11-10-2012, 13:40
Although I think the "if it isn't all powerful in every way it's useless" approach to army lists is stupid, I have to say that I agree with that DP without Eternal Warrior seems to be a problem, or perhaps mistake. At the very least, it's definitely worth clarifying.

Besides all the reasons Murphey has listed, with the new allies rules is might prove more tempting to take a DP from the Daemon Codex (along with an HQ and Troop choice), because it has as many boosts as the C:CSM DP but with a lesser statline.

I don't know, it just sits a little uncomfortably. Although as each Codex is a rulebook unto itself, this may have been deliberate, even if it is inconsistent.

We're comparing to a book that is old and will likely get repriced. Is eternal warrior for a monster that really only fears S10 (and some force, but that depends on the wielder) weapons really necessary? Every SC aside from Abbadon will face the same fate against a force weapon. Seems more like people just don't want any downside.

Kevlar
11-10-2012, 13:47
Seems more like people just don't want any downside.

Or some people are just wondering about continuity, when all daemons have, or had, eternal warrior.

Daedalus81
11-10-2012, 13:49
Or some people are just wondering about continuity, when all daemons have, or had, eternal warrior.

Whenever a new edition comes out people need to toss aside preconceived notions about what things should be. There was a lot of confusion when 8th came out, because people were reading like it was 7th.

The question can be asked of GW, but don't be surprised when they say it wasn't a mistake. Eternal warrior is not an easy thing to forget.

Azmodan666
11-10-2012, 14:27
1. Noise champion is the only champion that dosent have a CC weapon. Is it intended?
IF yes why normal noise marines can get additional CC and champion cannot?

2. How does exacly Scrolls of Magnus works when a LORD with MoT have it. Does he get MS1 or the codex is terrible written and have a lot of pointless options in it :P

Minsc
11-10-2012, 14:31
Does he get MS1 or the codex is terrible written and have a lot of pointless options in it :P

This pretty much. I've never seen a codex with so many pointless and/or bad options to choose from. (not saying there aren't many good options to choose from, just that in the CSM-codex there seems to be an abundance of strange and bad choices to make.)

Lord Damocles
11-10-2012, 14:33
So... don't give the gear obviously designed for psykers to the non-psyker..?

Charistoph
11-10-2012, 15:10
And if you took say Huron and Typhus could you choose which trait was prevalent?

That one's simple. The Trait used is whoever is Warlord. Warlord Traits are not used if the model in question is not a Warlord, period. Any more than the question between the Khan's and Vulkan's Chapter Tactics.

MvS
11-10-2012, 16:41
Seems more like people just don't want any downside.

For me it's more this:


Or some people are just wondering about continuity, when all daemons have, or had, eternal warrior.

...although granted I wouldn't be surprised if/when it is clarified as being a deliberate change to Daemon Prince rules. But it does deserve clarification. We've seen many similar clarifications in 40K FAQs in the past.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2012, 17:09
It might also be noted that Tyranids lost their army-wide immunity to ID and that Daemons being immune to ID makes no sense when ID is what force weapons cause (which should be if anything more effective against Daemons!). We may well see regular daemons losing their immunity to ID.

Attomsk
11-10-2012, 17:13
Why does the axe of blind fury grant rage if you need to have the mark of khorne to use it?

Chem-Dog
11-10-2012, 17:19
2. Typhus can allow any Chaos Cultist units to become Plague Zombies but stipulates those units 'cannot purchase options'. Does this include the option to take additional cultists past the original ten? It currently strictly only allows units of ten Plague Zombies.


12. If a Cultist squad is upgraded to Plague Zombies, can you add more numbers to the unit or are they stuck at 10?

Duplicate question.



15. Can vehicles with the Daemon special rule use the 5+ invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits?

I'm curious to know why anyone would think it couldn't. Might be worth asking if the Inv save is any use at avoiding "gets hot" glances.

RTB01
11-10-2012, 19:50
Can a noise champion take a sonic blaster?

If they can take a sonic blaster can they also take a doom siren?

Are they sure it's 1 in 10 for Blastmasters and not a typo for 1 in 6? :P

Cthell
11-10-2012, 20:09
A maulerfiend with meltacutters looses one powerfist, leaving it with 1 Attack (assuming that the 2 CCW bonus is included in the profile). If it then hits with that 1 powerfist attack, does it get 2 meltacutter attacks (since it hit with all [1] of its attacks)?

If one of the meltacutters is destroyed, does the maulerfiend still get 2 bonus attacks if it hits with all its powerfist attacks?

*Edited to remove already-asked question*

MagicHat
11-10-2012, 20:17
I'm curious to know why anyone would think it couldn't. Might be worth asking if the Inv save is any use at avoiding "gets hot" glances.

A bit late aren't you ;)


Invulnerable saves is taken against wounds suffered so RAW, glancing or penning can't be saved by ++ saves. Cover specifies that it works.
However, since DE can take invulnerable saves, the RAI is quite obvious.

Here is one: Can a forgefiend with ectoplasm cannons take their invulnerable save and vehicle 4+ save against gets hot.

Maybe should have specified that I meant DE vehicles can take invulnerable saves.

Caitsidhe
11-10-2012, 20:21
Warlord Trait Lost to DP or Spawn Transformation:

*If a model with the Warlord Trait allowing D3 infantry units to gain Infiltrate subsequently is transformed and loses the Trait WHILE some of the nominated units are still in reserve are they lost or do they still get to come in normally?

cuda1179
11-10-2012, 21:01
A Chaos character can potentially kill two enemy characters at the same time. If he does so, he would roll twice on the Chaos Boon Table. His rolls would be simultaneous, so what would happen if he rolled BOTH Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis? Would he be a daemon prince or spawn?

Clarkson
11-10-2012, 21:28
Warlord Trait Lost to DP or Spawn Transformation:

*If a model with the Warlord Trait allowing D3 infantry units to gain Infiltrate subsequently is transformed and loses the Trait WHILE some of the nominated units are still in reserve are they lost or do they still get to come in normally?

i dint know if i can even be bothered pointing out the idiocy here.

so lets go with a simple.. No

Clarkson
11-10-2012, 21:29
A Chaos character can potentially kill two enemy characters at the same time. If he does so, he would roll twice on the Chaos Boon Table. His rolls would be simultaneous, so what would happen if he rolled BOTH Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis? Would he be a daemon prince or spawn?

Flip a coin.

Caitsidhe
11-10-2012, 21:45
i dint know if i can even be bothered pointing out the idiocy here.

so lets go with a simple.. No

No they aren't lost or no they don't get to come in normally. I realize you think the question is stupid, but the RAW make it clear the trait is lost. The troops not on the table no longer have infiltrate and thus can never come in. I suppose the argument could be made that they are merely in NORMAL reserve now, but you must designate at the start of the game if a unit is using "outflank" and if they have been designated that way it creates a question of whether or not they are simply lost.

Minsc
11-10-2012, 22:01
Flip a coin.

Agreed.
Questions like cuda1179:s is the reason why the FAQs are loaded to the brimm with stupid, nonsensical questions, some which are extremely unlikely to happen anyway.
This takes time and space, and usually only prevents actual questions from getting a spot in the FAQ.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2012, 22:04
No they aren't lost or no they don't get to come in normally. I realize you think the question is stupid, but the RAW make it clear the trait is lost.
I think you can phrase this as a general question to go with cult troop status but I don't understand why this would be different to the character dying.

Jericho
11-10-2012, 22:08
When you are placing units in reserve, that's when you decide the mechanism by which they will be entering play later on (board edge, deep strike, outflank, etc.).

You can't say they are going to Outflank, and then not Outflank with them.

IncrediSteve
11-10-2012, 23:48
How many attacks do a pair of mechatendril grant? 1/2 or 2/4?

How exactly are you getting 2 sets of mechatendrils? Only the Warpsmith has one, it's not in the armory and nothing else gets them.

Unless you meant Lasher Tendrils, in which case the rules are pretty clear in that they state "Each set of...", and they don't grant any extra attacks to begin with.

Cthell
12-10-2012, 00:03
How exactly are you getting 2 sets of mechatendrils? Only the Warpsmith has one, it's not in the armory and nothing else gets them.

Unless you meant Lasher Tendrils, in which case the rules are pretty clear in that they state "Each set of...", and they don't grant any extra attacks to begin with.

I suspect they meant meltacutters, as maulerfiends are described as having 2 of them

Corvus Corone
12-10-2012, 00:10
I suspect they meant meltacutters, as maulerfiends are described as having 2 of them

Suspect you meant Magmacutters =)!

And yes, I'd like the answer to this too.

Graystoak
12-10-2012, 00:18
No they aren't lost or no they don't get to come in normally. I realize you think the question is stupid, but the RAW make it clear the trait is lost. The troops not on the table no longer have infiltrate and thus can never come in. I suppose the argument could be made that they are merely in NORMAL reserve now, but you must designate at the start of the game if a unit is using "outflank" and if they have been designated that way it creates a question of whether or not they are simply lost.

I'm not sure I understand what your asking. If the Warlord trait allows units to Outflank and they begin the game in reserve they can still outflank after the warlord has died/transformed. His trait has already taken its effect on your deployment and can be forgotten. If the trait dictates the warlord and his unit must infiltrate or outflank together then it's not really a concern as he can't die before he's entered the board!

cuda1179
12-10-2012, 04:12
Agreed.
Questions like cuda1179:s is the reason why the FAQs are loaded to the brimm with stupid, nonsensical questions, some which are extremely unlikely to happen anyway.
This takes time and space, and usually only prevents actual questions from getting a spot in the FAQ.

Stop being so full of yourself.

My rules question is valid. Although you can flip a coin for it, it's not exactly a "real" answer now is it? YOu could say that about pretty much any rules question. What I asked really isn't as rare as you suggest either. It all ready happened to me with my second game using this Codex. Any time a Chaos Character kills two enemy characters in combat there is a 1/324 chance of this happening. With Chaos characters being good in combat, and Imperial Guard armies with multiple characters per squad being common, this isn't exactly a rare occurance

Athlan na Dyr
12-10-2012, 08:47
Stop being so full of yourself.

My rules question is valid. Although you can flip a coin for it, it's not exactly a "real" answer now is it? YOu could say that about pretty much any rules question. What I asked really isn't as rare as you suggest either. It all ready happened to me with my second game using this Codex. Any time a Chaos Character kills two enemy characters in combat there is a 1/324 chance of this happening. With Chaos characters being good in combat, and Imperial Guard armies with multiple characters per squad being common, this isn't exactly a rare occurance

So why don't you just roll in sequence and apply the first boon result?

MvS
12-10-2012, 09:06
Warlord Trait Lost to DP or Spawn Transformation

And, lest we forget, Warlord Traits are only lost when a character becomes a Spawn, not a Daemon Prince.

Gaargod
12-10-2012, 09:40
Stop being so full of yourself.

My rules question is valid. Although you can flip a coin for it, it's not exactly a "real" answer now is it? YOu could say that about pretty much any rules question. What I asked really isn't as rare as you suggest either. It all ready happened to me with my second game using this Codex. Any time a Chaos Character kills two enemy characters in combat there is a 1/324 chance of this happening. With Chaos characters being good in combat, and Imperial Guard armies with multiple characters per squad being common, this isn't exactly a rare occurance

That seriously happened to you? On your second game? Weird, I suppose, but possible...

I'm going to be honest though, I suspect you'll get the same 'flip a coin' style answer from GW. It's seriously rare (unless we're talking black mace "fail T test or die" stuff here).

Banville
12-10-2012, 10:31
Stop being so full of yourself.

My rules question is valid. Although you can flip a coin for it, it's not exactly a "real" answer now is it? YOu could say that about pretty much any rules question. What I asked really isn't as rare as you suggest either. It all ready happened to me with my second game using this Codex. Any time a Chaos Character kills two enemy characters in combat there is a 1/324 chance of this happening. With Chaos characters being good in combat, and Imperial Guard armies with multiple characters per squad being common, this isn't exactly a rare occurance

I'd suggest roll in sequence in the order the enemies were killed. Problem solved.

MagicHat
12-10-2012, 10:32
That seriously happened to you? On your second game? Weird, I suppose, but possible...

I'm going to be honest though, I suspect you'll get the same 'flip a coin' style answer from GW. It's seriously rare (unless we're talking black mace "fail T test or die" stuff here).

Charge a company command squad with astropath, master of ordnance and officer of the fleet, + the company commander.
Let your own sergeant challenge one of the characters. If declined, the Lord have a potential of 4 killed characters.

Scammel
12-10-2012, 10:37
A Chaos character can potentially kill two enemy characters at the same time. If he does so, he would roll twice on the Chaos Boon Table. His rolls would be simultaneous, so what would happen if he rolled BOTH Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis? Would he be a daemon prince or spawn?

According to the Philmeister himself, you'd resolve them in the order you rolled. He gave the example of someone ascending to daemonhood only to get massively trolled.

Worldeaters
12-10-2012, 12:48
Thought you only rolled on the boons table if you killed a character in a challenge, thus impossible to slay two at the same time

Daedalus81
12-10-2012, 13:02
Thought you only rolled on the boons table if you killed a character in a challenge, thus impossible to slay two at the same time

No its any time you kill a character. The rule just says they have to challenge. Although if he was in combat and unless he had the black mace he should have been in a challenge and unable to kill other charachters.

madden
12-10-2012, 13:12
Dose that mean a precision shot could net a roll on the table? As he's (potenionaly)still killed a character. As the wording stands I'd say yes but as it's in the para dealing with challenges it could just as easily be no.

"Whenever a character with the champion of chaos special rule kills an enemy character, you must immediately check to see if the dark gods rewardhim."(p28 second para champ chaos rule)

What say you people.

Graystoak
12-10-2012, 13:37
Dose that mean a precision shot could net a roll on the table? As he's (potenionaly)still killed a character. As the wording stands I'd say yes but as it's in the para dealing with challenges it could just as easily be no.

"Whenever a character with the champion of chaos special rule kills an enemy character, you must immediately check to see if the dark gods rewardhim."(p28 second para champ chaos rule)

What say you people.

I took it as read, if he kills an enemy character he makes a roll. There's nothing to suggest it needs to be in combat, could be with a psychic power, bolt pistol or whatever.

MagicHat
12-10-2012, 13:48
No its any time you kill a character. The rule just says they have to challenge. Although if he was in combat and unless he had the black mace he should have been in a challenge and unable to kill other charachters.

I swear to the godemperor nobody reads my posts...
Khorne lord on juggernought with Axe of blind fury/biker bodyguard charging a company command squad with Company commander, Master of ordnance, Officer of the Fleet and Astropath. 4 characters. Biker champion challenges, IG might decline.
3-4 characters for the lord to kill.

Daedalus81
12-10-2012, 14:19
I swear to the godemperor nobody reads my posts...
Khorne lord on juggernought with Axe of blind fury/biker bodyguard charging a company command squad with Company commander, Master of ordnance, Officer of the Fleet and Astropath. 4 characters. Biker champion challenges, IG might decline.
3-4 characters for the lord to kill.

He's a false emporer!

Plokoon
12-10-2012, 16:25
•Where are the Legion specific rules?
•Why isn't a Daemon Prince leadership 10?
•Why can't Daemon Princes remain Undivided?
•Why are we still missing a drop pod equivalent?

Daedalus81
12-10-2012, 16:32
•Where are the Legion specific rules?
None
•Why isn't a Daemon Prince leadership 10?
Because he's a demi-god now and doesn't give a **** about leading
•Why can't Daemon Princes remain Undivided?
Because
•Why are we still missing a drop pod equivalent?
Because we're not space marines

These don't seem like valid FAQ questions to meeee!

Vaktathi
12-10-2012, 16:37
Leadership isn't just about leading, it's a combined stat meant to portray willpower, coolness under fire, ability to lead and direct, mental fortitude, resistance to mental attack, psychic capability, etc.

And "Because" is a non-answer. Granted, not really an FAQ question, but it's a non-answer nonetheless.

Daedalus81
12-10-2012, 16:39
Leadership isn't just about leading, it's a combined stat meant to portray willpower, coolness under fire, ability to lead and direct, mental fortitude, resistance to mental attack, psychic capability, etc.

And "Because" is a non-answer. Granted, not really an FAQ question, but it's a non-answer nonetheless.

Because daemon princes don't become daemon princes without a chaos god to make them into one.

Vaktathi
12-10-2012, 16:42
Because daemon princes don't become daemon princes without a chaos god to make them into one.
So, which Chaos god exactly raised Perturabo and Lorgar to daemonhood? :p

Nothing says they can't ascend through the means of Chaos as a pantheon.

red_drake
12-10-2012, 18:37
Leadership isn't just about leading, it's a combined stat meant to portray willpower, coolness under fire, ability to lead and direct, mental fortitude, resistance to mental attack, psychic capability, etc.

And "Because" is a non-answer. Granted, not really an FAQ question, but it's a non-answer nonetheless.

He's fearless

Vaktathi
12-10-2012, 18:47
He's fearlessMorale isn't the only time the Leadership stat is used however. Like casting Psychic Powers for instance.

Bubble Ghost
12-10-2012, 19:13
re. Spawnhood and Apotheosis at the same time: I can't think of a scenario in which characters could die legitimately simultaneously. Mechanically, wounds are allocated and resolved one at a time - even on those occasions when, in practice, you are able to remove several models "at the same time" - so even if it's just determined by the order of wound allocation from a single attack, one character is always going to die before the other. Knowing this, we can determine that it's 'correct' to just make boon rolls sequentially - so if the first one spawns/princes him, you skip the second. It could possibly stand to be clarified (or changed...) by an FAQ, but as it is, I don't think there's actually a contradiction there.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2012, 19:30
Hmm. You're right. Wounds are allocated sequentially, aren't they? So you'd think you simply resolve the attacks sequentially per the wound allocation rules, apply the Chaos Boons as and when each model dies, even in the middle of a set of attacks. It's a bit of a mess. After all, attacks from a given initiative value are simultaneous (if we both have I3 you don't get denied your chance to swing because I physically rolled first and killed your guy) and indeed the Champion of Chaos rules actually say "if an enemy character dies as a result of multiple Wounds being allocated to it simultaneously, and one or more of those Wounds were caused by the champion, that champion still rolls on the Chaos Boon table". Which rather contradicts the wound allocation system :cries: this also means that more than one character could actually have a hand in the death of an enemy character, getting a Boon each.

Bubble Ghost
12-10-2012, 19:58
Hmm. You're right. Wounds are allocated sequentially, aren't they? So you'd think you simply resolve the attacks sequentially per the wound allocation rules, apply the Chaos Boons as and when each model dies, even in the middle of a set of attacks. It's a bit of a mess. After all, attacks from a given initiative value are simultaneous (if we both have I3 you don't get denied your chance to swing because I physically rolled first and killed your guy) and indeed the Champion of Chaos rules actually say "if an enemy character dies as a result of multiple Wounds being allocated to it simultaneously, and one or more of those Wounds were caused by the champion, that champion still rolls on the Chaos Boon table". Which rather contradicts the wound allocation system :cries: this also means that more than one character could actually have a hand in the death of an enemy character, getting a Boon each.

Yeah, I noticed that last bit, and it's annoying because seems to show that the author either doesn't actually understand how his own game works, or can't explain himself properly. He seems to have written that section on the same cruise control that a lot of players were on when they were asking all those questions about wound allocation in the first few weeks of 6th ed, playing by a hodgepodge of memories of previous editions rather than what the current rules actually say. Which is a bit disturbing.

But just because he tells you what to do in the case of something impossible happening, doesn't make that thing possible. In practical terms, what I think that "simultaneously" business is doing is giving you an explicit exception to the Wound Groups rule. So, rather than do what the rules would normally demand, and make the wounds that affect the Champion of Chaos rule into a seperate wound group, you can just throw them in with all the other otherwise identical wounds, and if an enemy character is killed by that wound group, you can assume that your character did it.

So leaving aside that the author is telling us what to do in the case of a situation that cannot exist, and would break the game if it did, I still think we can dodge a bullet here and not have a contradiction, even by RAW. Just resolve boon rolls one at a time.

And yes, now that you mention it, it does seem to mean that two Chaos characters can both kill one enemy character. I rather like that idea. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DolsJV-vLo):D

Clarkson
12-10-2012, 19:58
•Where are the Legion specific rules?
•Why isn't a Daemon Prince leadership 10?
•Why can't Daemon Princes remain Undivided?
•Why are we still missing a drop pod equivalent?

he's LD9 with VoTLW not included in the profile.. ergo he's ld10

Worldeaters
12-10-2012, 20:02
Nope, votlw is already included on his profile. He is ld 9.

red_drake
12-10-2012, 21:17
correct. Apparently becoming half-imortal being of chaos doesnt make you any braver than a generic joe chaos marine. its the fighting in the heresy that does it.
which also brings the fluff-question of a lord without the VotLW upgrade suddently gaining it when he ascends to daemonhood.

Dr.Fororak
12-10-2012, 21:26
Can you exchange the Sorcerer's force sword with a powerfist?

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2012, 21:54
correct. Apparently becoming half-imortal being of chaos doesnt make you any braver than a generic joe chaos marine. its the fighting in the heresy that does it.
which also brings the fluff-question of a lord without the VotLW upgrade suddently gaining it when he ascends to daemonhood.
What's funnier, is that a Lord gains VotLW but loses a pip of Leadership. :eyebrows:

Minsc
12-10-2012, 22:10
What's funnier, is that a Lord gains VotLW but loses a pip of Leadership. :eyebrows:

There's nothing fun about it at all, it's all just quite sad.
That a ld10 chaos lord or sorcerer can become a ld8(9) Daemon Prince is just another big "wtf", regards Phil Kelly.

I also don't like how my very expensive Lord/Sorc on a daemonic steed can be "rewarded" by being turned into a slow Daemonprince with worse stats and no Wargear/Mastery levels.

Graystoak
12-10-2012, 22:11
Morphing into a 12 foot monster plays havoc with your memory you know!


Can you exchange the Sorcerer's force sword with a powerfist?

Apparently so, but you'd be giving up your Force weapon instant death ability, striking last and loosing the bonus attack for your pistol.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2012, 22:16
Actually Graystoak, while he could swap his force weapon for a ranged weapon or artefact, as it's written you can only swap bolt pistols or CCWs for the melee upgrades. Intentional? Dunno. But it's pretty clear.

It does beg the question why you'd want to swap your force weapon rather than say your bolt pistol and have a force weapon and power fist, but that's neither here nor there as a rules question I guess.

cuda1179
12-10-2012, 22:40
This is a little out there, but...... It looks like you can now upgrade your vehicle to have both a combi-bolter and a combi-melta/flamer/plasma. So, for a Rhino it could have two combi bolters, a Combi-flamer, and a havok launcher.

If true, that could make a Defiler pretty nice, combi-bolter, combi-flamer, two Havok launchers, reaper autocannon, and a battlecannon. Pretty good horde clearing.

red_drake
12-10-2012, 22:58
When in doubt, stick more guns on it

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2012, 23:03
If true, that could make a Defiler pretty nice, combi-bolter, combi-flamer, two Havok launchers, reaper autocannon, and a battlecannon. Pretty good horde clearing.
It would be if the stupid ordinance rules allowed you to fire all those things. :mad:

Ozendorph
12-10-2012, 23:04
Actually a couple combi-weapons are a good way to protect your other weapons from Weapon Destroyed results.

Charistoph
12-10-2012, 23:51
It would be if the stupid ordinance rules allowed you to fire all those things. :mad:

With the exception of the Havoks and the 1S Flamer, you can. They're just Snap Shots, though. Thank goodness for Twin-Linked?

totgeboren
13-10-2012, 00:40
Yeah, I noticed that last bit, and it's annoying because seems to show that the author either doesn't actually understand how his own game works, or can't explain himself properly. He seems to have written that section on the same cruise control that a lot of players were on when they were asking all those questions about wound allocation in the first few weeks of 6th ed, playing by a hodgepodge of memories of previous editions rather than what the current rules actually say. Which is a bit disturbing.

But just because he tells you what to do in the case of something impossible happening, doesn't make that thing possible. In practical terms, what I think that "simultaneously" business is doing is giving you an explicit exception to the Wound Groups rule. So, rather than do what the rules would normally demand, and make the wounds that affect the Champion of Chaos rule into a seperate wound group, you can just throw them in with all the other otherwise identical wounds, and if an enemy character is killed by that wound group, you can assume that your character did it.

So leaving aside that the author is telling us what to do in the case of a situation that cannot exist, and would break the game if it did, I still think we can dodge a bullet here and not have a contradiction, even by RAW. Just resolve boon rolls one at a time.

And yes, now that you mention it, it does seem to mean that two Chaos characters can both kill one enemy character. I rather like that idea. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DolsJV-vLo):D

The situation could also arise from a single kill, and then you roll 'multiple rewards'. Ok, it tells us to reroll spawnhood and becoming a DP, but it never tells us if this is an exception to the normal rule of no rerolling rerolls. It's a simple "reroll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results", and the rulebook tells us that you can never reroll a reroll, so you could get say 4 gifts from 'multiple rewards', and roll spawn twice, then Dark Apotheosis twice, then some other stuff. What and when do you apply? Do you apply say three buff and Dark Apotheosis/Spawnhood to the same model, giving you a superprince/spawn? Or a superprincespawn maybe?

Daedalus81
13-10-2012, 00:44
The situation could also arise from a single kill, and then you roll 'multiple rewards'. Ok, it tells us to reroll spawnhood and becoming a DP, but it never tells us if this is an exception to the normal rule of no rerolling rerolls. It's a simple "reroll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results", and the rulebook tells us that you can never reroll a reroll, so you could get say 4 gifts from 'multiple rewards', and roll spawn twice, then Dark Apotheosis twice, then some other stuff. What and when do you apply? Do you apply say three buff and Dark Apotheosis/Spawnhood to the same model, giving you a superprince/spawn? Or a superprincespawn maybe?

You can reroll a reroll if the codex allows it since codex trumps brb.

wyvirn
13-10-2012, 07:30
Uggg, No. Because then a Fortuned (reroll failed inv. saves) meets Swarmlord (reroll successful inv. saves) leads to an endless cycle of rerolls, because they are both from the codex. You get one reroll period. I'd treat it as an 'insuffecient offering' result on the second roll.

Cheeslord
13-10-2012, 08:23
you could only reroll a reroll if a rule in your codex very clearly said that there was an exception to the "can't reroll a reroll" rule in the rulebook, or that you could keep rerolling indefinitely, or something similar.

Mark.

totgeboren
13-10-2012, 08:37
you could only reroll a reroll if a rule in your codex very clearly said that there was an exception to the "can't reroll a reroll" rule in the rulebook, or that you could keep rerolling indefinitely, or something similar.

Mark.

So you would say that if I buy a Gift of Mutation, and make my roll and roll 'multiple rewards' (or just a single roll of DP), and then roll Daemon Prince, reroll and roll Daemon Prince, a Champion could turn into a Daemon Prince before deployment?

I think RAI is that you keep rerolling until you get an applicable result, like with psychic powers with too high a level for your psyker, or if you and your opponent rolls the same when determining who gets to go first.

igwarlord
13-10-2012, 09:08
i did not see this posted on the summary or in the last few pages so i thought I would ask.
The defiler can exchange its autocannon for a power fist. but it already has 2 power fists so does it gain an extra attack for having 3 fists or is this just something ........odd

Minsc
13-10-2012, 09:13
The defiler can exchange its autocannon for a power fist. but it already has 2 power fists so does it gain an extra attack for having 3 fists or is this just something ........odd

Not odd at all.
Walkers gain +1 attack for each closecombat weapon after the first one, so a defiler with 3 powerfists would gain +2A.

Bubble Ghost
13-10-2012, 10:52
The situation could also arise from a single kill, and then you roll 'multiple rewards'. Ok, it tells us to reroll spawnhood and becoming a DP, but it never tells us if this is an exception to the normal rule of no rerolling rerolls. It's a simple "reroll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results", and the rulebook tells us that you can never reroll a reroll, so you could get say 4 gifts from 'multiple rewards', and roll spawn twice, then Dark Apotheosis twice, then some other stuff. What and when do you apply? Do you apply say three buff and Dark Apotheosis/Spawnhood to the same model, giving you a superprince/spawn? Or a superprincespawn maybe?

I'm inclined to think that they intend you to carry on rolling until you get a different result when they tell you to 're-roll' the Boon table - it's not a conventional pass/fail in the manner of what that rule is designed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if they confirm that in an FAQ. But even if not, why would you not still just do the rolls in order?

Graystoak
13-10-2012, 11:03
I'm inclined to think that they intend you to carry on rolling until you get a different result when they tell you to 're-roll' the Boon table - it's not a conventional pass/fail in the manner of what that rule is designed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if they confirm that in an FAQ. But even if not, why would you not still just do the rolls in order?

Exactly. It isn't a re-roll in the conventional sense, it's just something you cannot have so you ignore it and make another roll. The authors intention is pretty clear, you cannot become a spawn or a daemon prince before the game begins/until you've killed an enemy character. And I think that's a pretty sensible decision when you factor in things like arriving from reserves, warlord traits etc. Plus It's nice to know my lord isn't gonna turn into a spawn before he's lead a charge from my Landraider!

Cheexsta
13-10-2012, 11:35
•Why isn't a Daemon Prince leadership 10?
He is. He has Veterans of the Long War, which increases his Ld to 10. There is no reason to believe the VotLW bonus is already included in his statline.

Also, FAQs aren't there to answer "why" questions.

Edit: I stand corrected, see below.

Worldeaters
13-10-2012, 12:01
He's ld 9, it's says if a character already starts with the rule the bonus is already included in its profile, read the codex.
I assume they have done this so that if you take any other HQ it stops you from making him your warlord cos the rest are ld 10.
Page 30 right hand column second paragraph

Cheexsta
13-10-2012, 14:42
He's ld 9, it's says if a character already starts with the rule the bonus is already included in its profile, read the codex.
I assume they have done this so that if you take any other HQ it stops you from making him your warlord cos the rest are ld 10.
Page 30 right hand column second paragraph
Ah, I take that back. Faulty memory had attributed that to just Marks of Chaos on the following page.

Carry on, gents :)

Ace Rimmer
13-10-2012, 16:02
Not sure if it should be in the CSM FAQ or the Main Rulebook FAQ, but it's probably worth raising the fact the vehicles that have an Initiative value "-" (i.e. anything but a walker from a quick peruse of the bestiary in the back of the BRB) are automatically made BS1 by any blind ability as they automatically fail the stat test according to page 7 of the BRB.
Warp Talon's & Slaanesh Sorcerer's appear to literally have the sun shining out their asses.

full_blooded_ork
13-10-2012, 18:53
Do Special Characters with a specific Warlord trait included in their rules always use only that one? Can they choose to roll for a random one instead of/in addition to their standard Warlord trait? (IMHO the answer is clear, but I've seen the question asked several times.)

Doesn't it say in the rulebook you roll on the chart unless it has a specific trait? Or something like that?

Edit: Yes it does, page 110.

Graystoak
14-10-2012, 00:40
I've got another one. The Warlord trait Master of Deception allows D3 Infantry Units to Infiltrate. A Unit according to the rule book is a catch all term and includes single models. Does this mean you can infiltrate an independent character as one of your D3 allowance, as long as he's infantry? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?

red_drake
14-10-2012, 01:18
Nope, seems fine to me. As long as he's infantry

Grocklock
14-10-2012, 16:10
I don't know if you guys know but it seams GW whats our feedback on FAQ's there is an email address you can send your questions too.

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018&section=&aId=3000006

Daedalus81
14-10-2012, 23:08
Im not sure if this one has been covered.

In a challenge if my champ dies as well as his character who have simultaneous attacks and I get an immediate roll on the boon table scoring the +1 wound - do I live?

blameless
14-10-2012, 23:10
^Someone should collate all this into a comprehensive community FAQ. GW would definitely look long and hard at a good community FAQ.

Leth Shyish'phak
14-10-2012, 23:12
Im not sure if this one has been covered.

In a challenge if my champ dies as well as his character who have simultaneous attacks and I get an immediate roll on the boon table scoring the +1 wound - do I live?

I'd say no. Both characters die at the same time, and the boon roll only occurs after the enemy character dies, by which point your champion is already dead.

Daedalus81
14-10-2012, 23:15
I'd say no. Both characters die at the same time, and the boon roll only occurs after the enemy character dies, by which point your champion is already dead.

Ahh, good point.