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Ealdwulf
10-10-2012, 16:00
I've been in this hobby for awhile now, probably since 96. Warhammer (in general, not specifically fantasy or 40k) has been a solid hobby of mine for years. I've come and go, but it's always been there as a source of entertainment and creative outlet and inspiration.

I've seen this happening over the last decade, the slow rise of 40k in the US. When I started out I always felt (maybe wrongly so) that fantasy was the premier game of Games Workshop.

While I've played both games, (Space Wolves, Tau, Bretonnians and Dwarfs) I tend to enjoy the rule set and factional diversity of Fantasy over 40k. I do think 40k, as a setting is more unique and perhaps that is the draw that people have to it.

What do you guys think it is, (or do you?) that 40k is more popular? Is the rule set easier to grasp, is it the setting?

These are of course just my observations from a purely North American perspective, I assume this is different in different parts of the world.

BigbyWolf
10-10-2012, 16:13
Fantasy has always been more popular in my area.

Ealdwulf
10-10-2012, 16:18
Fantasy has always been more popular in my area.

Which area might that be BigbyWolf?

tiger g
10-10-2012, 16:19
We play both in my area of the US

Lance Tankmen
10-10-2012, 16:20
i wish fantasy was more popular in my area, if it wasnt for me, there wouldnt even be people playing fantasy as i got co-workers and friends to start. 40k appeals to peoples sci-fi ness... its got big bad asses holding big guns and swords, chainswords! one co-worker choose 40k despite not being able to play with our group... but take lord of the rings and star wars for example, i generally find most people who havent watched lord of the rings has watched star wars, rarely vice verus

sugnathefeeble
10-10-2012, 16:44
40k is more popular with the younger gamers in my area. Maybe because 40k is to fantasy as checkers is to chess

Jind_Singh
10-10-2012, 16:45
There are a lot of reasons why 40K has been the bread winner for 40k - while Warhammer was the game that really got GW going, it's now a staple of GW income that 40k keeps their shareholders happy!

1) Models - the appeal of space men and space tanks has a vast appeal to a lot of people, it's easy to identify and want to collect them. I LOVE 40k models, they have a lot of appeal.

2) Age - lets face it, the younger crowd LOVE the 40k toys over Warhammer toys, the 40k genre is just more appealing

3) perception of ruleset - the Warhammer was always about movement, wheeling, flanking - the game is elegant. It was also dry and dusty prior to this new 8th ed and as a result players who loved LOVED 40k just couldnt make the switch to Warhammer - and the rules are much more complex than the futuristic version of the game. So there is a massive preconception about how warhammer is played - it's not as true anymore as the core rules are much more simple than before but still hold thier appeal

4) Collections - it's much easier to start up 40k than Warhammer - if 2 buddies grab 2 troop choices and a HQ each they can start playing fun games right away. Now try buying two boxes of infantry and a character - not even close!

5) People left after 7th ed became 8th ed - and that's just a sad panda fact! But there is a percentage of players who left not because of their dislike for 8th, but the dislike of NOT ENOUGH 8th ed books - I feel that as more 8th ed books are written I'm seeing more players return - but so far we just have:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands

I think that we need about 2-3 more army books released and then 8th ed will really start growing.

So there are a lot of reasons why 40k has grown such market share - the sad fact is 40k sold more books in the opening weekend than Warhammer did in it's opening month - and the gap is such that I highly doubt warhammer will ever catch up - but it's never going to be relegated to being a sideline game so I'm happy - it just means I have to carry 2 armies for 2 game systems when I go to GW incase no one has their square bases with them!

Ealdwulf
10-10-2012, 17:10
There are a lot of reasons why 40K has been the bread winner for 40k - while Warhammer was the game that really got GW going, it's now a staple of GW income that 40k keeps their shareholders happy!

1) Models - the appeal of space men and space tanks has a vast appeal to a lot of people, it's easy to identify and want to collect them. I LOVE 40k models, they have a lot of appeal.

2) Age - lets face it, the younger crowd LOVE the 40k toys over Warhammer toys, the 40k genre is just more appealing

3) perception of ruleset - the Warhammer was always about movement, wheeling, flanking - the game is elegant. It was also dry and dusty prior to this new 8th ed and as a result players who loved LOVED 40k just couldnt make the switch to Warhammer - and the rules are much more complex than the futuristic version of the game. So there is a massive preconception about how warhammer is played - it's not as true anymore as the core rules are much more simple than before but still hold thier appeal

4) Collections - it's much easier to start up 40k than Warhammer - if 2 buddies grab 2 troop choices and a HQ each they can start playing fun games right away. Now try buying two boxes of infantry and a character - not even close!

5) People left after 7th ed became 8th ed - and that's just a sad panda fact! But there is a percentage of players who left not because of their dislike for 8th, but the dislike of NOT ENOUGH 8th ed books - I feel that as more 8th ed books are written I'm seeing more players return - but so far we just have:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands

I think that we need about 2-3 more army books released and then 8th ed will really start growing.

So there are a lot of reasons why 40k has grown such market share - the sad fact is 40k sold more books in the opening weekend than Warhammer did in it's opening month - and the gap is such that I highly doubt warhammer will ever catch up - but it's never going to be relegated to being a sideline game so I'm happy - it just means I have to carry 2 armies for 2 game systems when I go to GW incase no one has their square bases with them!

I think you've hit on a lot of key points here. I think that once Warhammer catches up in the "epic" department (which they've really started to do with new releases) it will help the range feel less static and more like badass dudes riding badass monsters.

I'm hoping with some of the new Warhammer releases fantasy picks up. While I do like the 40k setting and all, I find it gets a bit stale when 50% of the armies are space marines.

I think the diversity of the armies in fantasy is one of the areas that really stand out to me, not only visually, but rules wise. I just find it's an under appreciated game in my area, and it makes me sad ha ha. :(

BigbyWolf
10-10-2012, 17:11
Which area might that be BigbyWolf?

In the UK, but I do frequent clubs with a good deal more older gamers than younger ones (21+), so that could be a reason why. We've got a few people who break out the Marine-fest every now and then, but usually it's Fantasy going on.

It's weird, but I've always preferred the smaller-scale Necromunda, and larger-scale Epic, and never really settled with 40K. I've not played it since 2nd edition.

Minty
10-10-2012, 17:17
I am powerless to speculate...

Even if someone prefers the 40k Ruleset AND the 40k Fluff (and I for one find both inferior to Fantasy), you'd think they'd grow bored of actually playing Space Marines Vs Space Marines every week.

You'd have thought the existence of more than one army in Fantasy games would be the ultimate, nuclear-powered, irresistible convert-40k-players argument, but it never seems to work like that (except on me, I only learned later that it was also a better game).


The odd thing is, they say Fantasy is actually more popular then 40k here in Blighty, but that's not the case in any of the three clubs in my manor.

boli
10-10-2012, 17:32
End of the day it is far easier to collect build and paint a 40k army than a fantasy one.

I have ~2,500 points of Ultramarines from 15 years ago it comprises of 1 vehicle and about 40 models; (it was very infantry based). The only unit I have finished in my Skaven Army is a Plague Furnace with 65 Plague Monks; its one of my more expensive units and comes in at a "staggering" 730 points.

That's is the reason.

TheBearminator
10-10-2012, 18:30
I've been in this hobby for awhile now, probably since 96. Warhammer (in general, not specifically fantasy or 40k) has been a solid hobby of mine for years. I've come and go, but it's always been there as a source of entertainment and creative outlet and inspiration.

I've seen this happening over the last decade, the slow rise of 40k in the US. When I started out I always felt (maybe wrongly so) that fantasy was the premier game of Games Workshop.


I share your experiences exactly. I think I got started with my first fantasy army, skaven, in like 1998 (?). Back then my understanding was that fantasy was far note popular than 40k. At least in Sweden.

Heard an interesting podcast on the subject of fantasy gradually losing ground. My theory is that fantasy appeals more to younger players (perhaps also their parents) because it's not the grim darkness of the far future. It's a kinda cute game, with knights,ogres and dragons in vivid colours. After 15 years of frequent price raises, kids can't buy twenty goblins and a starter paint set without spending a fortune. The same goes for their parents. Even when I started you heard patents complaining about the prices of GW stuff. Since then they must have doubled.

Edit: what I forgot to mention is that on top of the fast increasing prices, fantasy also requires more models to play.

TheDungen
10-10-2012, 18:49
I always hears that sci-fi is bigger in the us then fantasy (the genres not the games) so that could have somethign to do with it. Also 40k is a simpler system that requires fewer models to play (or at least thats how it used to be) which helps sales.

The way i've always seen it is that the general warhammer fb player is older than the general 40k player but that may have changed with late 7th and 8th starting to go Godzilla on fantasy.

Daniel36
10-10-2012, 19:49
Fantasy is the only game currently played in our (admittedly pretty small) club, with between us two High Elf armies, two Vampire Counts armies, a Beastmen army, two Skaven armies, a Wood Elf army, a Chaos Warriors army and an Empire army, with the odd other army showing up every now and then. 40K is not played (yet).

At my old club, 40K is pretty much tied with Fantasy and Mordheim, as far as I know.

So... It just depends where you're at.

Ealdwulf
10-10-2012, 20:05
Fantasy is the only game currently played in our (admittedly pretty small) club, with between us two High Elf armies, two Vampire Counts armies, a Beastmen army, two Skaven armies, a Wood Elf army, a Chaos Warriors army and an Empire army, with the odd other army showing up every now and then. 40K is not played (yet).

At my old club, 40K is pretty much tied with Fantasy and Mordheim, as far as I know.

So... It just depends where you're at.

So far it seems like Fantasy (based upon our admittedly completely scientific data/thread here :-p) is more popular in Europe. I'm sure being surrounded by history in the way that Europe is, would propagate this setting.

I've seen it come and go in Texas, but there is a large fantasy following here in Texas. When 8th hit I saw a huge surge of players, but this last weekend I only saw 2 fantasy games going, versus 4 40k. However one fantasy player was Chaos Dwarfs, which was awesome.

Qupakoco
10-10-2012, 21:08
From what I can gather, it's definitely an age thing around my area. But we do have a Halloween WHFB tournament coming up that is (big surprise) MONSTER themed. You just can't do that with 40k, unless you bust out the old 'nids.

Just don't get me started on Warmachine/Hordes...

Hawthorne
10-10-2012, 21:11
At least in my area (with some exception) it seems like the people playing 40k are more about having fun, more of a "Hey wanna play a game I wanna try something out" or just for the joy of the game.
Fantasy on the other hand seems very much about winning rather than having fun (again with exception) and the people who play it more than 40k seem to instill the feeling.
An example: I have Tau and Wood elfs and I'm equally awful with both (neither are my main army, mostly just hobby armies). No one criticizes me for using Tau or feels like they were ripped out of a quality game because I preformed poorly with a poor list. On the other hand I've been openly scolded at for bringing a not only bad Wood Elf list but bad Wood Elf tactics and the opponents sometimes feel it doesn't bring a competitive enough game.
I understand from a gaming perspective the opponent does deserve quality in his opponent but I still need to learn stuff and I don't feel like copying alpha lists from the internet.

All that being said there are people in my area that do make Fantasy fun and there are always people that take 40k too seriously. Frankly I view the game as a stress relief and a fun social activity so the less serious people are the better.
(I will say 8th edition and Storm of Magic do a good job of encouraging having fun over crushing the opponent)

Qupakoco
10-10-2012, 22:24
^^^ I don't know about that. WHFB is pretty random at times. This makes for quite a bit of fun, as a badly built army can still win depending on how the dice gods are favoring you.

BTW, if y'all look at the main forum directory you can see that the average number of viewers for 40k threads is usually higher. So I'd say it's more popular on the internet as well.

The Low King
10-10-2012, 22:47
5) People left after 7th ed became 8th ed - and that's just a sad panda fact! !

I found that in my area more people started Fantasy when 8th came out than left...

Fantasy is much stronger in my area, the local store is very much fantasy dominated. Where i go to uni its pretty evenly split in the store but the nearest club is more fantasy.

Fizzy
10-10-2012, 22:56
It depends on interests.

I and my friends are around 20 all of us. We tried both games but prefer 40K becuase we like Sci-fi and guns.

I have always been a sci-fi fan since I can remember. Watching Star Trek with my dad as a kid.

I do like the idea of an undead army though in fantasy but I must say that my Death korps of krieg and my Pre heresy World eaters are a bit cooler and their fluff are very interesting. But that is just my personal opinion.

A friend of mine further away from me tend to play more fantasy but that is because he loves the fluff behind orcs and goblins.

But others here are right that there are more young ones (10-13) that tend to buy space marines like crazy because they think they are super cool space super soldiers.

I love the free roaming tactics of skirmish units.It feels more alive rather than movement trays with soldiers looking like they went: Ctril+C and then Ctrl+V.

The modelling is therefore more free. Making your guy hold a CCW in each hand and stretching his arms out and roar (A world eater). That is not as easy in fantasy as they guy needs to fit in the ranks.



I collect my armies based on fluff in the first hand then the models and last but not least rules.

TheDungen
10-10-2012, 23:04
Older players quit when 7th became 8th and younger players replaced them. Then again that always happens when the editions change, some odler players dont like the changes and drop out.


So far it seems like Fantasy (based upon our admittedly completely scientific data/thread here :-p) is more popular in Europe. I'm sure being surrounded by history in the way that Europe is, would propagate this setting.

Haha and I i didnt already know you were american i'd know now. We're no more surrounded by history here than you are, sure it exists to a somewhat greater degree but if you're not into history you can live your entire grown up life without having to subject yourself to it.

Havock
10-10-2012, 23:46
Right now Flames of War, Infinity and Warmahordes have surpassed GW games in time played. Mantic's Kings of War is taking hold of the WHFB people because they can still use their mini's but actually finish a decent sized game in two hours.
8th ed knocked a lot of people out of 8th ed for a while, we had a strong tournament setting so there was a lot of cav/min core builds so people had to expand their stuff before they could play decent games again. Most , me included, were disgruntled enough with it that it coloured their opinion of 8th ed.

Before that 5th ed 40k had a short burst of people getting drawn in... For about 3 months after which a lot of people (me included) that the system was immensely boring as hell. I have a guard army I built in 2006, haven't played it in half a year, there's about one to two games of 40k per two weeks, fantasy likewise.

2 years ago you could bring your WHFB/40k army in and likely find an opponent. Now you are better off bringing other systems if you want a go.
Fantasy gets a bit more popular when a GT or Battle of the Clubs is looming. But both fantasy and 40k are losing ground in my place.

I think that 40k is easier to get into, for the current generation. Guns and explosions is more something of this time than fantasy, swords and magic.
With 8th ed a lot of 40k players like fantasy and vice versa, but people who are disliking or only 'meh'-ing one probably feel the same or worse for the other. Result being that the GW game(r)s consolidate around themselves while everyone else flies off to other systems, not necessarily leaving 40k or fantasy altogether.

tl;dr: we haven't really had new fantasy or 40k players in like, two years? Above is merely my observation, the other games are drawing new people in pretty easily, but GW's stuff just doesn't have a stay-factor.
Maybe it is the startup cost.

logan054
10-10-2012, 23:52
Well we have a club called 4tk, might give a hint as to what people play the most off in my area....

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-10-2012, 23:58
Well we have a club called 4tk, might give a hint as to what people play the most off in my area....

LotR by any chance?

logan054
11-10-2012, 00:00
How did you guess!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-10-2012, 00:06
How did you guess!

I'm just that good.

Actually on topic, all the to US gamers I've spoken to recently have said that Fantasy is basically dead in the States, with 40k being far more popular. In my local area, Fantasy is actually having a bit of a resurgence, though 40k is still quite a lot more prevalent (Flames of War and Bloodbowl are the only other games doing well, Warmachine is all but non existent).

Warrior of Chaos
11-10-2012, 01:00
40K seems to be the most popular in my area. There are a bunch of people with Fantasy armies, but most are too busy with their schedules to play (because they are older folk). The younger people (more time to be store rats) tend to play more 40K than Fantasy so you do see it way more. You also do not see much in the way of painted armies around here. I paint my stuff aggressively, but it does not seem to be a priority for a lot of the 40k players; once again I will attribute this to impatience rather than lack of skill. I love playing Fantasy but I have some 40K troops just in case I can't find a game. You also see a lot of Warmachine here. There is not much in the way of historical and whatnot.

The funny thing is that when myself and one of my older buddies actually can get to the store for a big Fantasy mashup, you usually have a bunch of people watching the game because of the scale of Fantasy compared to 40K. You generate a bunch of interest and people tend to be floored by the spectacle. I think people like the concept but are also intimidated by the number of models they would have to buy, assemble and paint.

Ealdwulf
11-10-2012, 01:20
Older players quit when 7th became 8th and younger players replaced them. Then again that always happens when the editions change, some odler players dont like the changes and drop out.



Haha and I i didnt already know you were american i'd know now. We're no more surrounded by history here than you are, sure it exists to a somewhat greater degree but if you're not into history you can live your entire grown up life without having to subject yourself to it.

Hahah c'mon now...here in Texas we have the Alamo, and that's about it (unless you know where to look). I just got back from Austria and I couldn't walk without stepping on Scholoss von Somethingburg. I know what you mean though, I'm sure in the metropolitan areas historical architecture is often looked over.


40K seems to be the most popular in my area. There are a bunch of people with Fantasy armies, but most are too busy with their schedules to play (because they are older folk). The younger people (more time to be store rats) tend to play more 40K than Fantasy so you do see it way more. You also do not see much in the way of painted armies around here. I paint my stuff aggressively, but it does not seem to be a priority for a lot of the 40k players; once again I will attribute this to impatience rather than lack of skill. I love playing Fantasy but I have some 40K troops just in case I can't find a game. You also see a lot of Warmachine here. There is not much in the way of historical and whatnot.

The funny thing is that when myself and one of my older buddies actually can get to the store for a big Fantasy mashup, you usually have a bunch of people watching the game because of the scale of Fantasy compared to 40K. You generate a bunch of interest and people tend to be floored by the spectacle. I think people like the concept but are also intimidated by the number of models they would have to buy, assemble and paint.

I have to agree, a fully painted Warhammer battle is pretty epic. I also agree that the sheer number of models can be intimidating and off-putting to new comers. I tried to get a bunch of my buddies into it, but they went for Warmachine instead due to the more skirmish level aspect of that game, most people are not painters and the idea of painting massive units of men is terrifying to them ha ha. I like Warmachine but I feel the fluff is something to be desired.

I'll still keep plugging away with my fantasy armies though, even if I only get a handful of games in a year.

Lord Cedric
11-10-2012, 01:20
The topic of which country is more 40k or Fantasy is really dependent on local geography and the interests of those within. To say that the States is more 40K than Fantasy isn't factual unless we get a very large demographic. If I have 10 friends spread across the States and each one said that their local area only play 40k.. well then that must mean that 40k is more dominant in the States. That reasoning is flawed as 10 people or a thousand people do not represent an entire country's choice. If you go by just the sales margin, that too, can be misleading as the number of models sold doesn't mean more people are playing it.. it simply means that more 40k models are sold. Collectors vs. Painters vs. Players have a direct affect on these numbers and what they mean.

That aside and to the OT starter, Fantasy seems way more popular in my local area of SW Michigan, USA between that and 40K. However, other game systems are, from what I can tell, becoming the more prominant choice to play. I think it's mainly due to GW's tough independent store contracts/demands which either makes the local game shops around here either have a lot of GW stock to sell or none at all (which the latter seems to be the more common).

8th edition Fantasy seems to have taken a very well reception here as the new 40K one has not (but it's still fairly new and I would expect that to change especially getting closer to Christmas), although the new 40K model range has some pretty good sales. Side note: unfortunately for myself, historical is almost non-existent.

- Lord Cedric

FashaTheDog
11-10-2012, 03:22
In the Capital Region of New York (that's the Albany area, not someplace in Queens people, you know, 150 miles away from NYC :p), both Fantasy and 40K are pretty popular. The 40K crowd is generally more permissive about what they allow regarding rules, armies, and whatnot while the Fantasy folks are often tweaking their lists for the next tournament and like to stay strict tournament rules (Crossroads or whatever the next one is) if they can help it. I find the Fantasy crowd's draw to competitive play funny considering that a single roll or two has a far greater an impact on Fantasy that it can in 40K. I've had several games of Fantasy where the game was all but won for a player only for a freak die roll to completely change it whereas with 40K, a single die roll may make a big difference, but I have yet to see a single roll change a complete loss into an overwhelming victory; usually it takes a series of badly or aptly timed odd rolls to shift the balance. Now I find that 40K and Fantasy both draw the same attention from me, but Warmahordes competes for the Fantasy slot so I play less Fantasy than 40K and my Legion stomps out more than my Fantasy does. Blood Bowl steals more from Fantasy too.

There are two other aspects of 40K that tends to draw in more players that I've noticed; the books and video games. The 40K books from the Black Library seem to have far more readers in my area and I know a few people who went from paperback to tabletop. Space Marine has also snagged at least one new player. The last Fantasy game I know of that got a new player to want to start up was Shadow of the Horned Rat, but I talked my friend into 40K instead because I had started a Tyranid army and had packed away my Fantasy stuff and didn't want to go get it.

EternalGuardian
11-10-2012, 03:47
In my area (South Carolina) 40k has become much more prevalent over the past year. Our fantasy community is still there, but many people stopped playing when 8th ed came out for a variety of reasons, and some have moved away (large military community here) Those same people have also stopped playing 40k for the most part, and are on to other systems (Flames of War mostly). Warmachine is only played by a couple of diehards. The age dynamic is similar to what's already been pointed out. The older gamers tend to gravitate to fantasy while 40k is filled with a myriad of teenagers and 20 somethings. In this area it is the 40k crowd that is power-game driven and not much fun to play with. They are boisterous and constantly arguing about rules issues that come up. There is a contingent of that group that travels to many of the large tournaments in the region, so maybe that is why. The fantasy players are much more relaxed and tend to the enjoy the game for what it is.

I must reiterate what others have already alluded to or said outright. 40k is more appealing to those starting out, mainly because of the access to it through other mediums (video games, Heresy book series, etc.) and the lower cost of start-up compared to fantasy. The sci-fi attraction doesn't hurt either.

FashaTheDog
11-10-2012, 05:03
As I painted, another thing cropped up, you are more likely to need to paint more flesh in Fantasy than in 40K and horses. In 40K generally speaking only Guard armies will have plenty of skin to paint as fully enclosed helmets are the order of the day for power armor. And horses will typically also be limited to Guard as well. Orks, Daemons, Necrons, Tau, and Nids all can go flesh tone free as can most power armored armies, with Sisters of Battle, being the only odd ball of the batch. You can even paint skin free Guard with Forgeworld's help thanks to Krieg and the Cadian hostile environment pack; not the cheapest route, but certainly a way to avoid flesh. I think skin is easy to paint since you almost always have a sample right next to the mini you are painting (might be wearing gloves or have a prosthetic), but certainly, you can find a sample at hand with little effort. And tanks are fun to paint if you have an airbrush. A few of the larger Fantasy monsters might be cool to do like a Hippogryph with tiger stripes, but overall you will paint far fewer models with an airbrush than you would with 40K.

Then there is the lack of a need for movement trays in 40K, unless you're me and am working on a 2,000 point Ork with more than 400 Grots or 240-ish Orks (have the Orks with spares, just need more Grots). While the movement tray is not a huge deal, it is another thing you need for Fantasy that you do not for 40K. Fantasy also lacks a real Apocalypse supplement that has caught on as well. With the super-heavy vehicles and titans already existing in great abundance 40K had little trouble drawing folks in the big games while Fantasy is really only starting the whole supplemental monster and unit category (Fimirs are back after a 20 vacation, which is cool). New players can see that while Fantasy does try to encourage them to go nuts with all they own and add in crazy units, 40K not only does it better, but already offers a wide range of huge and insane kits. "Hey boy, can I interest you in a titan or two? No, well how about a Baneblade company? You know what goes great with Baneblades? That's right, Storm Eagles and Marauders..." So there is the appeal of what will come to be after they have a full army with option and are looking for more.

There's also the far wider variety of Forgeworld extras like vehicle hatches, different marks of power armor, weapons, etched brass, and transfers to also entice a new player looking to add something special to their army, perhaps the Mk. IV Command set for a new Marine HQ or Chaos Terminator Lord Zhufor for a Chaos one. Orks, Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Marines, Inquistion, Guard, and Tyranids all have something that would make for a nice centerpiece HQ without breaking the bank, heck some of the Forgeworld stuff is only $5-10 more than the GW stuff. Plus you have all the pre-Heresy stuff that got a section larger than all of Fantasy. Right now, Fantasy lacks all the fancy appealing toys through Forgeworld, much like 40K did back when Forgeworld started producing resin-crack, with time, there will be more, but it won't be soon with the Horus Heresy bender Forgeworld is on. Likely a minor factor, but one I can see that might play a minor role if a player is on the fence between systems.

I know a few players who are at the point where they have enough for a full army and plenty of spare units to swap around for different lists, but right now they are looking to expand some more but not really start a whole new army so they can either get some allies and/or fortifications or go big for Forgeworld. One guy I know decided that a Storm Eagle was the ticket to complement his Marines. Another person was talking about buying some allies since he only needed a minimal amount that he could easily use and not need to worry about building up a full army. I don't think either one of them will actually start a new army anytime soon, but wanted more variety than just what their codex allowed, so they remained interested because there was a wider range. I think 6th edition 40K was a smarter business move for GW in how it implemented allies as a part of the core rules in building an army and not a team thing like Fantasy did. Again, it is more options so new players will have more expand into and can stay engaged longer with new toys without needing to shell out the time and money (and for some us of the former is more the problem than the latter) for a whole army from scratch.

The_Klobb_Maniac
11-10-2012, 05:39
I agree with Fasha. I was drawn into Dawn of War due to a need for a new RTS at the time. I didn't want to as much because it looked so goofy ("Orks..? Wtf..?") But I grew to love the orks and grew on the fluff over time. Eventually it died because they balanced the teams about as well as they do WFB and 40k (NOWUTIMSAYN!?) and I lost interest; but some months later me and a girlfriend went on a reading kick so i tried out the HH series; and it was awesome. The imagery and universe caught me and I bought some ork models to start with. Years later I have another 4-7 friends who got into the TT game stemming from my infection (can't take 100% of the credit of course..)

I'd say that what keeps me not interested in fantasy is:
-The lore (not a huge part)

-The tendency for shooty units to be mediocre/bad (it sounds like they never kill anything ever, ever.)

-Super units. Ugh. The idea that there are HQs who cost more than 250 models worth of other units is absolutely dis-concerning. I have no interest in Hero-hammer nor do I have an interest in who brought a bigger mallet. Maybe it doesn't play out that way; but it sure seems like it would from the insane difference in points values between units.

-With a focus on combat and how lame sweeping advances are (and it sounds like a similar SA system to 40k) I'm not interested. I like hordey stuff a lot of the time and losing 10-20 models because one guy rolled well on the other side is just.. not my thing. I'd rather feel like my models do something. (and that's saying something from a guy who uses IG and Orks.)

-Mobility. This is probably one of the biggest differences and why the players on different systems can view the other as a simple-minded game. 40k has so much mobility that you can cross from the long side to it's opposite in 1-2 turns with many factions; depending on the unit etc.. and this makes for a lot of decisions. Mastery of each system would likely be based on making the correct movement decisions; 40k you have a lot of choices so optimization of those choices is important. WFB you have to make choices that reflect more than a turn in advance.

-Ranks vs. Models. That's all I have to say on that.

-The pretentious attitudes that leak between forums don't show WFB players in a good light. I think players who play both systems realize that neither takes an extraordinary amount of tactical aptitude to play well but many who play just one system view the other as simple-minded childs-play; and that self-aggrandizing attitude gets old.... really quickly.

pirateoftaiwan
11-10-2012, 06:11
In my area (Rexburg, Idaho... yes, for all you foreigners out there, Idaho is a real place... on a side note Idaho driver's licenses are the only U S licenses not accepted in many countries) 40k pla yers seem to be more competitive than fantasy play ers.  40k is also a more popular.

Akkaryn
11-10-2012, 09:57
Fantasy has always been more popular here. How ever since the release of 6th edition release and now the chaos book getting a fantasy games is quite difficult.

Sh4d0w
11-10-2012, 11:39
Something else as well, at my local store I talk to the managers quite a lot, whenever someone new comes in the manager always points them towards the 40k section, I'm not saying it's the sole reason but I would imagine that it would have a significant impact if this was the game the managers recommended to new people in every store.

stonegiant
11-10-2012, 11:49
I play in two clubs in Glasgow, Scotland. In one club, Fantasy has died a death (since 8th) as I think the perception is simplification, and huge cost increase (hordes, big things). In this club Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux and Blood Bowl (!) have been dominating the tables.

In the other club, it's a fairly even mix of 40K and Fantasy (Generall GW only).

My own opinion is that Fantasy has become a bit of a "push two armies together, roll dice, finish" kinda game, whereas 40K bolstered by the much more grand, dynamic setting (Horus Hersy, Space Marines,) and probably better GW / FW support has become a more exciting game, able to be picked up for less cost.

Warrior of Chaos
11-10-2012, 13:55
Something else as well, at my local store I talk to the managers quite a lot, whenever someone new comes in the manager always points them towards the 40k section, I'm not saying it's the sole reason but I would imagine that it would have a significant impact if this was the game the managers recommended to new people in every store.

This does happen quite a bit as well. The push of the people who run the game stores locally tends to lean towards 40k....


...whereas 40K bolstered by the much more grand, dynamic setting (Horus Hersy, Space Marines,)...

LOL, I always found 40k to be much more shallow on background and Fantasy to be the grand/dynamic setting. It is really all about perception, and as of right now I think that 40k is winning the "perception" war...as well as the "bling" war with FW/GW releases on models. Fantasy may be the flagship game of GW, but it is kinda like baseball in the U.S.A. We call it our "national pass-time" but more people actually watch American Football on TV, rather than Baseball.

The Low King
11-10-2012, 14:15
Older players quit when 7th became 8th and younger players replaced them. Then again that always happens when the editions change, some odler players dont like the changes and drop out.

I know older players who started again in 8th having quit because they didnt like 7th :p

FashaTheDog
11-10-2012, 14:33
In my area (Rexburg, Idaho... yes, for all you foreigners out there, Idaho is a real place... on a side note Idaho driver's licenses are the only U S licenses not accepted in many countries) 40k pla yers seem to be more competitive than fantasy play ers.  40k is also a more popular.

Idaho can't be a real place, I don't care what the bag of potatos say or why my driving directions to my uncle's house has me drive through it. Sorry, the only Idaho is named Duncan and there were many of him over the reign of Leto II. :p On a serious note, though, that font is a pain to read first thing in the morning when you're trying to kill time before you get on the road. I thought it had died with the Tandy computer.

Hengist
11-10-2012, 16:22
WFB has dropped-off utterly in my gaming circle; increasing dissatisfaction with the rules from 7th edition onwards seems to be the principal complaint. Sadly, I see 40k going the same way; 6th edition's arrival has evinced a similarly startling level of bitterness and disappointment, with its arbitrariness as the commonly-ascribed culprit.

steeledcascade
11-10-2012, 16:31
Even though space hulk was the first Gw game i played, It was dwarfs that i first purchased and played. Back when I started most people in my area played fantasy, However this has steadily declined and now most of the younger generation play 40k. I think this has a lot to do with whats pushed onto them by GW upon enetering the hobby. However I am of the belief that most veterans prefer fantasy, But i still enjoy 40k just prefer fantasy rules and fluff.

dusk1983
12-10-2012, 04:02
To throw my two cents in, I've always found not only is it easier to get started with 40k (smaller armies and whatnot) the game itself is simpler and faster to play. A 2000 point 40k game can be finished in an hour, tops (unless youve got people who dont know the rules) whilst I've found fantasy tends to take a lot longer and its mainly due to the convoluted movement phase. I still think 40k's system of move/shoot/charge/fight is easier to work through than flee/rally/charge/move/magic+dispel/shoot(but at a negative if youve moved)/fight that is the staple dynamic of a single fantasy player turn.

All that said I prefer fantasy because it is far more tactical than 40k. (which is probably another draw for 40k). In my opinion *most* of the tactics of 40k revolve around constructing an effective army list, while in fantasy everything you do on the table *matters*.

I also prefer fantasy simply due to visuals. Matching units and regiments spread out across a table looks grand, while 40k armies don't hold the same visual appeal.

Just my opinion on the subject anyway.

stonegiant
12-10-2012, 06:42
I don't know, I think the perception of the magic system has also done a lot of damage to the perception of fantasy as a more tactical game. Some of those "big" spells can really sicken people when they come off (and they possibly effect some armies worse than others) and even some of the "lesser" spells can be pretty brutal - I'm looking at you Level 4 Shadow Mage...

Antianara
12-10-2012, 08:17
I think it depends on the circle, and why they get into the hobby, for example I have two circles, the league I play in (in which everyone prefers fantasy), and my friends from uni (who all prefer 40k). I think in the league, everyone is more serious about the rules and the game, they play for fun, but its more of a tactical-thinking game type of fun, which is why they prefer fantasy. My other friends from uni just want to use awesome units and blow stuff up, they are in the game for fun, to hang out with friends and to enjoy themselves. They like 40k better because it is sic-fi, has guns, and the characters/races are "epic". In the end it just comes down to preference.

FashaTheDog
12-10-2012, 19:52
To throw my two cents in, I've always found not only is it easier to get started with 40k (smaller armies and whatnot) the game itself is simpler and faster to play. A 2000 point 40k game can be finished in an hour, tops (unless youve got people who dont know the rules)...

While I have had 2,000 point games for 40K finish with an hour, very few do and my group has a very solid grasp of the rules. We typically take about two to three hours, more if one person's army is particularly "fun." By "fun" I am referring to armies like all infantry Guard and Death Korps (silly amounts of shooting and in the case of the latter, plenty of models on the move as well), infantry heavy Orks (have you tried moving 200+ models without the option of movement trays), Dark Eldar (taking the extra time to line up fire lanes to maximum benefit for self with minimal return fire from foe), swarming Nids, or any army with silly amounts of psychic powers (like that Thousand Sons army I fought Monday that had something like 10 or 12 powers. Most of my hour long games have been abnormally small armies like Deathwing versus Armored Battlegroup (less than three dozen models on the table) or such one sided games such as my Dark Eldar tabling a Marine army on turn 2 or my Khornate army tabling itself under in 5th (Kharn killing his more of his own Berserkers than the enemy and dying to the resulting no retreat wounds).

As most players do not race to finish a game and take a moment to consider their moves, both games at their standard sizes (2,000 for 40k, 2,500 for Fantasy) tend to take about the same amount of time so I disagree with your assessment that 40k is faster. It can be with the right armies facing off and the players not needing to take a moment to consider their options, but you can do that with a Chosenstar versus Gutstar combo as well in Fantasy. I can't argue that 40K is usually easier to start, though, as many Fantasy armies do have a larger model count that 40K armies (exceptions exist like a 40K Green Tide can easily hit 250 models while a Fantasy Ogre army could clocking in a two to three dozen models or so). As others have said, I do question 40K being a simpler system, Fantasy is equally as simple; it just has a different style of play. A good analogy would be that Fantasy is rock and 40K is water. In Fantasy you need to be ready to weather the upcoming turns and position yourself accordingly, whereas in 40K you typically need to be able to flow with the tide of the game or be swept aside.

dusk1983
12-10-2012, 22:51
While I have had 2,000 point games for 40K finish with an hour, very few do and my group has a very solid grasp of the rules. We typically take about two to three hours, more if one person's army is particularly "fun." By "fun" I am referring to armies like all infantry Guard and Death Korps (silly amounts of shooting and in the case of the latter, plenty of models on the move as well), infantry heavy Orks (have you tried moving 200+ models without the option of movement trays), Dark Eldar (taking the extra time to line up fire lanes to maximum benefit for self with minimal return fire from foe), swarming Nids, or any army with silly amounts of psychic powers (like that Thousand Sons army I fought Monday that had something like 10 or 12 powers. Most of my hour long games have been abnormally small armies like Deathwing versus Armored Battlegroup (less than three dozen models on the table) or such one sided games such as my Dark Eldar tabling a Marine army on turn 2 or my Khornate army tabling itself under in 5th (Kharn killing his more of his own Berserkers than the enemy and dying to the resulting no retreat wounds).

As most players do not race to finish a game and take a moment to consider their moves, both games at their standard sizes (2,000 for 40k, 2,500 for Fantasy) tend to take about the same amount of time so I disagree with your assessment that 40k is faster. It can be with the right armies facing off and the players not needing to take a moment to consider their options, but you can do that with a Chosenstar versus Gutstar combo as well in Fantasy. I can't argue that 40K is usually easier to start, though, as many Fantasy armies do have a larger model count that 40K armies (exceptions exist like a 40K Green Tide can easily hit 250 models while a Fantasy Ogre army could clocking in a two to three dozen models or so). As others have said, I do question 40K being a simpler system, Fantasy is equally as simple; it just has a different style of play. A good analogy would be that Fantasy is rock and 40K is water. In Fantasy you need to be ready to weather the upcoming turns and position yourself accordingly, whereas in 40K you typically need to be able to flow with the tide of the game or be swept aside.

Was only speaking of my experience in my local group. After posting i remembered my first army which was nids, and they took a long time because of movement. I was guessing because ive never actually timed our games but fantasy always seemed to take longer to me.

The armies i generally face are orks (choppa and bike heavy), nids (monster heavy), impie guard (tank heavy) berserkers of khorne lists and a thousand sons list (extreme shooting and psychic powers have alway been offset by very few models on the board), so i guess ive never really gone against a larger 40k army

Nubl0
13-10-2012, 02:10
Im lucky that fantasy is more popular in my area, and to those who say the 40k is faster to play... well I have seen 40k players take upto 2 hours playing a game and thats no including how long they spend arguing about who can see who and whats closer to what gun. Me and my buddy at the last wfb gt managed to set up and finish our game in about 56 minutes. That said it was probably the fastest game I have played but not by much.

The Low King
13-10-2012, 11:53
Ive had a Fantasy game take 50 mins and ive had a fantasy game take 5 hours (both 2000 points).

Ive seem 40k games take 5 hours and ive seen 40k games take 50 mins.....

I dont think there is really that much difference in time.

Spiney Norman
13-10-2012, 13:43
Generally about the same, our veterans club is running campaigns for both 40k and wfb at the moment (though granted the 40k campaign has 14 participants whereas the fantasy one has 7).

The difference is there are more players that play 40k exclusively, almost everyone who plays fantasy also plays 40k whereas we have a knot of 16-18 yr olds who only play 40k. I think there are a variety of reasons for this, sci-fi settings have a much less dorky image than traditional high fantasy, also (in my opinion at least) the 40k model range is superior to the fantasy one (fantasy currently has nothing to rival the Dark eldar range in 40k for overall quality and consistency). Lastly of course is the gameplay issue, 40k still has a more simplistic rule set and is easier to master. Also 40k plays towards the uber competitive type person with much poorer balance between the different forces than fantasy (though it remains to be seen if they will try to use the new 40k edition to rebalance the game as they have been doing with the 8th ed fantasy books).

Bladelord
13-10-2012, 13:46
Luckily, WHFB seems to be more popular than 40k in Sweden. Unfortunately Lotr have no player base around here.

Spiney Norman
13-10-2012, 16:12
Luckily, WHFB seems to be more popular than 40k in Sweden. Unfortunately Lotr have no player base around here.

I've never lived anywhere where there has been a dedicated LotR player base, there are a few guys at our club that have lotr models (me included) but in virtually all cases we'd rather use the time for a game of wfb than lotr. Part of the problem is that GW doesn't treat lotr like a core game, they treat is as a step on the way to wfb/40k, and with the exception of the army books they released a while back its had little more attention than the specialist games.

Rogue
13-10-2012, 17:20
40k is more popular with the younger gamers in my area. Maybe because 40k is to fantasy as checkers is to chess


That may have been the case in the past, however the rules have changed so much as of late that I really do see that much of a difference in dificulty between the two game systems.

To answer the question of the OP, if it has not already been said, but cost is a factor. It is still cheaper to put together a 40K army as opposed to a Fantasy army.

xxRavenxx
13-10-2012, 18:17
Cost of a 40k army, of reasonable size (about 5 units): £110?

Cost of a fantasy army of the same amount of units: £250?


I think thats the difference maker in a lot of places. Adding a fantasy unit is not a cheap affair. Its 3 boxed sets at £20 each. Adding a 40k unit is normally £20, and expanding on that later is doable. Fantasy needs the whole unit up front.

Haravikk
13-10-2012, 18:23
It's hard to get an accurate idea since some people just pop into my local store and buy stuff then leave, but I think 40k is definitely more popular with the store regulars, particularly the younger ones. I think 40k has more immediate futuristic cool factor which appeals to younger gamers, not to say it holds true for everyone but it's fairly common. Also, in theory 40k is much easier system to get into since it scales better for smaller game sizes, though when it comes down to it it's not that much cheaper to collect a typical size of army in practice as squad boxes generally contain fewer models for more money than fantasy, but then you don't need quite as many models, even so it still adds up, especially with cheap dedicated transports in terms of points, but not money.

Still, while you can have fun with 750 points in fantasy, larger games are where things generally work best, while 750 points in 40k is very playable on a smaller game board (4' x 4' or so), as you can still field lists with a lot of variety, and very few options are shut out completely since you only need a couple of squads to form the basis of a playable force with room to add stuff on top.

SoÖ in a way it is easier to get into, the rules are generally simpler though there's still a fair bit of complexity there which means it's not so dumbed down that it isn't fun for the veterans.

Bodysnatcher
13-10-2012, 18:24
In my area it's true that the younger guys are more into 40K. However the field is balancing as we try to encourage people to play everything - 5th ed 40K drove a lot of veterans away and now they're going back, plus we try to get the youger guys into fantasy by supporting doubles games and tournaments.

Havock
14-10-2012, 18:35
Cost of a 40k army, of reasonable size (about 5 units): £110?

Cost of a fantasy army of the same amount of units: £250?


I think thats the difference maker in a lot of places. Adding a fantasy unit is not a cheap affair. Its 3 boxed sets at £20 each. Adding a 40k unit is normally £20, and expanding on that later is doable. Fantasy needs the whole unit up front.

8th ed made Warhammer really expensive. When you have to buy about 3 boxes of 20-30 euros to get one unit on the table... Yeah...

Radium
14-10-2012, 18:54
40k is a LOT more popular over here. I used to play both, but Fantasy just lost its appeal over time for me. The universe is not quite as interesting as the 40k universe, and the game is too static and was (before 8th) too predictable. There are still a bunch of Fantasy players left over here, but they're usually the older guys that have been playing Fantasy for ages and don't care about any other games out there.



All that said I prefer fantasy because it is far more tactical than 40k. (which is probably another draw for 40k). In my opinion *most* of the tactics of 40k revolve around constructing an effective army list, while in fantasy everything you do on the table *matters*.


I don't want to derail this topic, but I really don't think this is the case.

Aluinn
14-10-2012, 21:02
Before I say anything on this, I should note that I enjoy both games, and that I find they both have their unique strengths and weaknesses. As systems, in and of themselves, after playing both for quite a while, I don't subscribe to the idea that one (usually perceived to be Fantasy) is the advanced tactical player's game, and the other (usually 40K in common interweb/games-store-banter conception) is the beer-and-pretzels game where dice--or list-building--decide the outcome more than tactics. To be fair, Fantasy requires you to think ahead a great deal more, but 40K usually presents you with a lot more options in any given turn, and I think it roughly evens out. Thus, I discount one game being for "veterans" (which are always the smaller group) and the other for "casuals" as any element in the popularity gap.

After pondering it for a while, I think it comes down to aesthetics and background. Fantasy has many awesome models, and actually has a fairly developed background, but in spite of all the detail it often feels like Fantasy, as a setting, is just your generic Tolkien-inspired, D&D-type watered-down, overdone thing with its standard three groups of Elves, its non-evil "average dudes/chicks" humans with "adaptability" as their defining trait (uh, and cavalry, sometimes), its Orcs and Goblins (who are savage, warlike, and dim-witted), Dwarves (who drink lots of beer, mine, use axes, and live in the mountains), etc. etc. There is deeper stuff, but a lot of the core of it is stuff we've all seen before.

Then you look at 40K, and though it just puts much of this in space, that alone is somewhat of a novelty, and beyond that it has the incredibly rich and quite unique background of the Imperium. It doesn't feel like any other popular setting out there, not because it is grimdark (there's plenty of that, what with post-apocalyptic stuff being kind of the rage lately), but because it is a distant future that is also regressive and hearkens back to Ancient/Medieval/Renaissance societies, as well as playing on 20th/21st C. totalitarian themes, imperialism in general, racism and genocide, religious dogmatism ... the list goes on. This is stuff that most sci-fi doesn't get into too deeply if at all, and when it does it is usually somewhat myopic where 40K runs the gamut. (As an example, Starship Troopers deals with fascism and militarism, but that pretty well sums up its theme in fullness, and its aesthetic is familiar to any reader/viewer of sci-fi fictional things where 40K has plate-armored Herculean post-humans chopping aliens up with swords and flying around in space cathedrals.) 40K also takes the wackiness that makes Fantasy appealing, e.g. Orc/Ork society, appropriates it, and then cranks it up to 11, so to speak, so that much of what would draw people to FB is equally or more so a draw to 40K. For example here, I find 40K Orks much more interesting and amusing than Fantasy Orcs, even though the core concepts are the same.

The popularity of 40K in the U.S. in particular can likely be explained pretty simply by the fact that, in addition to all of the above, Americans really like guns, as absurd as that may sound. If you're not an American, you probably will never fully understand how important guns are to us (even those who don't actually own guns and might advocate more strict gun control laws), and how much we will prefer any war fiction with guns over war fiction without guns (a few arquebus here and there not really being sufficient).

As an example of all of this stuff, a Space Marine holding a bolter and chainsword is an iconic image that is recognizable even to a lot of people who have no idea what Warhammer 40K is as a game, nor anything more of its setting. Fantasy has nothing like this: Show someone with no wargaming knowledge a picture of an Empire soldier and their reaction will either be to remark upon how silly the clothes are (if not familiar with European history to any great degree) or to say "oh look, a landsknecht mercenary with a bunch of skull trophies". They'd probably not be able to distinguish a GW Fantasy Orc from other fantasy Orcs now that GW's Orc design has permeated so many other works (in fact, most would probably think it came from World of Warcraft), and Elves or undead .. well, you get the picture.

Minty
14-10-2012, 23:30
Then you look at 40K, and though it just puts much of this in space, that alone is somewhat of a novelty, and beyond that it has the incredibly rich and quite unique background of the Imperium.

While it's true that 40k has a lot more fluff (despite being the younger game) if you remove stuff exclusively devoted to Marines the rest of 40k's lore could be written on a beermat in big letters. For 40k this is both a blessing and a curse.

If one were to, for example, excise all exclusively Empire fluff from Fantasy, one'd still be left with scads of stuff.


The popularity of 40K in the U.S. in particular can likely be explained pretty simply by the fact that, in addition to all of the above, Americans really like guns, as absurd as that may sound. If you're not an American, you probably will never fully understand how important guns are to us

This is very true, in fact, I think you're understating how massively fond the American psyche is of guns. To an outsider living there it was ********** terrifying to see up close. I've never doubted the fact that that has an impact on the relative popularity of 40k and Fantasy in that country.

Aluinn
15-10-2012, 03:37
While it's true that 40k has a lot more fluff (despite being the younger game) if you remove stuff exclusively devoted to Marines the rest of 40k's lore could be written on a beermat in big letters. For 40k this is both a blessing and a curse.

If one were to, for example, excise all exclusively Empire fluff from Fantasy, one'd still be left with scads of stuff.

This is very true, in fact, I think you're understating how massively fond the American psyche is of guns. To an outsider living there it was ********** terrifying to see up close. I've never doubted the fact that that has an impact on the relative popularity of 40k and Fantasy in that country.

I'm boggled by this statement about 40K fluff. The Horus Heresy novel series has taken great precedence recently, but what needs to be understood about Space Marines is that they could be replaced with any elite human soldiers who were at the forefront of the Great Crusade and nothing about the background would really change. You could cut out the Primarchs, including Horus himself, and still have some portion of the Emperor's armies being corrupted by Chaos and exactly the same consequences ensuing.

Space Marines are essentially a collective imagery; they aren't essential to 40K fluff proper (in the sense of written background that is either narrative or descriptive) at all. The only fluff that is truly about Space Marines is the fluff regarding the personalities of the Primarchs (which extend to their legions and later chapters), describing how they are created, what their respective homeworlds are like, and their military organization, though a good deal of that again could exist if you cut out every instance of "Space Marine(s)" and replaced them with "elite members/regiments of the Imperial Guard".

I mean, seriously, have you read nothing about the Mechanicus, the Ministorum, the Inquisition, the Dark of Age Technology, the Sororitas, the Schola Progenium, the Administratum, the Arbites, hive cities and Imperial nobility, Navigators, Warp travel, Titan Legions, Rogue Traders, the High Lords of Terra, the Custodes, or the mother-****** Emperor himself? The Age of Apostasy fluff alone references, off the top of my head: The Avignon Papacy, the Papal Schism, the Borgia popes, the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, institutionalized Anglicanism, and the Knights Templar. That's one tiny aspect of fluff about one of many organizations in the Imperium, and by comparison the entirety of Empire fluff amounts to a fantasized version of the Holy Roman Empire with anything actually interesting about it (e.g. conflict between its principalities, religious wars post-Reformation, Prussia's struggle for dominance, German unification, or the power struggles between the emperors and the papacy) removed, and a magic school added, with such amazingly intriguing ideas as fire magic, death magic, life magic, etc.

Now I don't mean to disparage Fantasy fluff too much, but it's clear that when the game was invented it was ripped pretty wholesale from Tolkien and D&D (which was ripped pretty wholesale from Tolkien anyway), with a few (bland) historical references (the aforementioned Empire stuff, Lizardmen being magical Aztecs/Incas, etc.) and has only slowly been developing its own unique identity. As an example, the older fluff for Nagash has him acting as pretty much a perfect clone of Sauron. The most interesting thing I can point to in it are Skaven, everything to do with Mordheim, and, oddly, recently-developed stuff on Wood Elves, because they aren't at all like you'd expect.

There are four fully-developed roleplaying games set in the 40K universe where you can never play a Space Marine and will usually never end up even seeing one, at least two of which are more popular by far than WHFRP, though WHFRP (and Mordheim) does/do a much better job at making the Fantasy setting seem non-generic than anything printed relating to the wargame.

underscore
15-10-2012, 13:46
I mean, seriously, have you read nothing about the Mechanicus, the Ministorum, the Inquisition, the Dark of Age Technology, the Sororitas, the Schola Progenium, the Administratum, the Arbites, hive cities and Imperial nobility, Navigators, Warp travel, Titan Legions, Rogue Traders, the High Lords of Terra, the Custodes, or the mother-****** Emperor himself?
...however all those things are part of the Space Marine side/faction/story/fluff/etc. Which kinda does prove the point that the human side of 40k sends to dominate the setting. Personally that's what attracts me to the 40k fluff yet and repels me from the game itself - I like the Imperium lore as a narrative, but find it's pervasiveness boring when it comes to the models and game.

In response to the main question though, I'm pretty sure the answer is mostly to do with model count. All those ranks of infantry make look more impressive than the 40k stuff (after 20 minutes putting them on the table I'd hope so!). But they have to come from somewhere!

Warrior of Chaos
15-10-2012, 13:49
This is very true, in fact, I think you're understating how massively fond the American psyche is of guns. To an outsider living there it was ********** terrifying to see up close.

Ummm....guns...:::far off glazed stare:::.

The guns were terrifying or the annoyed Americans when they couldn't find ammo cheap at Wal-Mart? :shifty: In all seriousness, I think that we Americans do have a gun fixation which may contribute to our preference for 40k. I still prefer my Fantasy, but I get where that conclusion could be drawn.

FashaTheDog
15-10-2012, 17:46
(which was ripped pretty wholesale from Tolkien anyway)

You forgot the bit where Tolkien stole from mythology and Wagner (mostly just the single ring to rule the world), who in turn had also stolen from the some of the same mythology, making all of this a long line of idea distribution :D.

Now as to the comment about the Imperium fluff being so central to the setting, you are really looking at the rise and fall of the Imperium with the fluff halted before any noticeable major collapse. I mean the vast majority of the galaxy is ruled by the Imperium of Mankind, Fantasy does not have any one race with such dominance. Fantasy is more a case of large warring empires while 40K is the siege of the Imperium by countless smaller entities. Yes the removal of the Imperium from the setting would take a majority of the fluff, but you would still be left with a large amount of material to work with to reshape the setting, more than a great many sci-fi or fantasy settings have in total. Considering the amount of fluff that can be gleamed from the Imperium's, such as the Tyranid invasions, Ork WAAAGHS!, Daemonic incursions and possessions, Eldar stratagems, Necron awakenings, and numerous other races mentioned off hand or heavily established, you can come up with a vast amount of stuff that the existence or non-existence of the Imperium would make little difference in. For example, there is far more fluff on the Warp in 40K than the Realm of Chaos in Fantasy, although the fact that it is the galactic highway/telephone system probably helps this, and yes most of this is presented in the Imperium fluff, but it would hold equally true in an Ork or Eldar story as well so it cannot be discounted. If you make the argument that the Imperium's singular dominance in the setting to the point of actually being the most of the setting was both a flaw and strength, then yes I can see your argument on the point, but it does not mean there is little fluff for the remainder, albeit at that point Fantasy would have more established fluff.

IcedCrow
16-10-2012, 15:18
In my area, 40k has really always been the dominant game. We have a sizeable fantasy group as well but 40k has always had more players. I have found that true for the following:

* as it is dominant, players pick it up knowing they can get a game in easier (so it feeds itself basically)

* its model count is less demanding as opposed to fantasy. You can start to play with space marines, which require basically a couple boxes of tactical marines and an HQ. That's 11 models or so that need painted that are very easy to paint and marines are good at everything
which means the learning curve is less steep.

* while looking at arrayed rows of troops in fantasy is impressive, it turns a lot of folks off who either A) don't want to collect and paint that many models and/or B) don't like square formations and prefer the skirmish movement of 40k

* is easier to relate to as 40k has tanks and guns

* is a bit more forgiving as there are no flanks and rears that need to be dealt with

* For the most part most people consider 40k's fiction to be superior to fantasy's

A good solid 3/4 of 40k players are marine players. That speaks volumes. They are easy to collect, paint, and use properly. Fantasy is a bit more difficult to get into, and more intimidating to collect.

Zentdiam
17-10-2012, 09:49
We have actually found that whatever the local GW employees are playing, the majority of customers will play that too. I go to the Chicago Battle Bunker and we came to this conclussion one night after some discussions. For a good chunk of the kiddies and random populace that comes in, the employees are their biggest source of information and drive in the hobby. The employees run them through starter games and get them fired up over various parts of the hobby. Newcomers especially, really look at what the employees are talking about and getting excited over. If everyone is talking about their awesome fantasy armies, new players want to learn about that. If everyone is talking about 40k that is what gets the spotlight. Gaming groups tend to stick to their own and don't influence the populace as much as one would think. Honestly, it all seems to go in waves, but this is different as the bunker gets a lot of people of varying ages and various groupings. Each will rise in ascendance depending on new stuff and what the employees and some of the outgoing groups that hang out with them talk about all the time.

Having said that, I think in the long run 40k gets the nod more often. As a starting stand point 40k just seems to be easier to teach to new players. Some of the phases are just much simpler and tend to grab players more quickly. Movement especially is easy to start with in 40k. Measure a distance, don't worry about much except keeping the groups together. Plus selling a smaller model count is much easier to do a lot of the employees say. You can get younger crowds set up with other younger crowds that play games with just starters or with small points much easier. Fantasy tends to quickly escalate in purchases. When you see a big horde of spearmen, a lot of people want that awesomeness on their table. The average 40k unit is what, 5-15 models? Barring some races like orcs and the like?

Juicy21
17-10-2012, 10:17
at my local club there are always atleast 4 tables 40k and most of the time 1/2 tables fantasy..
Most people that play 40k say its easier to learn and that fantasy has more luck in it..

TheDungen
17-10-2012, 10:23
actually when warhammer was written i did stuff that was very uncommon namely bringing modern day references into a fantasy setting. its generic fantasy today because fantasy have grown to envelop warhammer but it wasn't that generic from the start.

and the amount of historical anchoring that gav brought in during 6th made warhammer unique in its believability as a setting while wharhammer 40k is as unrealistic as sci-fi goes.

Wh40k however is diffrent because sci-fi went in another direction. it followed the science route. it went the star trek route and the star wars route, not the dark horror sci-fi route. And also because wh40k was at its time of inception only fantasy in space.

and aside (actually including) space marines everything 40k does have been do other places to,

the only thign i think 40k does better is scope. there is simply more room for things to happen and to place your ideas. But that's just because people dont get how large earth is, and that the warhammer world is even larger. its also large enough to accommodate any idea.

dusk1983
17-10-2012, 10:23
at my local club there are always atleast 4 tables 40k and most of the time 1/2 tables fantasy..
Most people that play 40k say its easier to learn and that fantasy has more luck in it..

well i disagree about 'more luck'. Fantasy makes you think harder. (I play both, in fact I *started* my warhammer journey in 40k but moved to fantasy when i craved something a little more tactical.)

etancross
17-10-2012, 17:07
The problem with fantasy right now IMHO is they made magic TOO over the top and not enough ways to deal with it. For example almost every lore having a spell that can remove an entire unit from the table, that is DEVASTATING and you can be playing again, winning and do everything right and then just start having units taken off the table because of magic. On top of that a lot of players donít like the random charge distances, I donít really care much about that but some people were so broken up about it they were vowing not to play anymore.

I like a lot of the changes for this edition, and IMHO if they would do something to tone down magic a bit and even though I donít think itís a big deal do something about the random charge distance, I think that would get a lot of players back into the game.

IcedCrow
17-10-2012, 17:43
To be honest, most of the people filling their diapers with rage over random distance aren't really people I want to have to be standing across the table from anyway.

etancross
17-10-2012, 17:55
I agree Icecrow

dusk1983
17-10-2012, 22:37
The problem with fantasy right now IMHO is they made magic TOO over the top and not enough ways to deal with it. For example almost every lore having a spell that can remove an entire unit from the table, that is DEVASTATING and you can be playing again, winning and do everything right and then just start having units taken off the table because of magic. On top of that a lot of players don’t like the random charge distances, I don’t really care much about that but some people were so broken up about it they were vowing not to play anymore.

I like a lot of the changes for this edition, and IMHO if they would do something to tone down magic a bit and even though I don’t think it’s a big deal do something about the random charge distance, I think that would get a lot of players back into the game.

New edition 40k is rife with over the top magic... Er... I mean psychic lores. It also has random distance and stand and shoot. New edition of 40k has been turned into babys first warhammer fantasy as it lacks the elegance of fantasy but has lost the simplicity that used to be its appeal. Just my opinion but im turned right off 40k

popisdead
18-10-2012, 20:05
You can buy an HQ, a unit of troops and a tank and play a 500 point game. Every single model in that army gets to shoot (for simplicity sake). Plus it's a chess vs checkers thing. 40k is just move models around, and shoot. Fantasy you have to think more. That is a huge overgeneralization but still true.

In fantasy you paint 200 models, most are just wound counters and then the meta changes and you have to buy another unit or two every year or so.

Shimian
19-10-2012, 08:01
In my opinion, 40k is more popular than fantasy just because it is easier. As someone stated above, in 40k you just buy some troops, paint them, move them around and shoot. You do not need to care about formation and stuff like that. That makes it easier for people who are new to the hobby. And when you start a thing, you tend to stick to it, even though there might ne other interesting alternatives.

Jadawin
19-10-2012, 15:26
I agree that in general Fantasy is more expensive but there are cheaper army options such as WOC which like space marines have a low model count. Also some of the 4Ok sets are very expensive, Meganobz for example £15 each! and the large tank kits are not cheap either.

I also think its borderline trolling to say "40k/Fantasy is more/less tactical than fantasy/40k". Clearly both games require an amount of skill and tactical know how if u are going to be any good at them.

However I think that 40k is slightly easier to pick up and play than fantasy is.

J.P. Biff
20-10-2012, 23:38
5) People left after 7th ed became 8th ed - and that's just a sad panda fact! But there is a percentage of players who left not because of their dislike for 8th, but the dislike of NOT ENOUGH 8th ed books - I feel that as more 8th ed books are written I'm seeing more players return

You bring up alot of great points in the majority of your post (as it pertains to my area and gamers) Except for this one. (again, as it pertains to the people I game with and other gamers I talk to) The majority of people quit 8th when it became 8th because the whole ruleset changed. To steal another poster's metaphor: 40k was checkers and Fantasy was chess. If you played nothing but chess and loved it and the creators turned it into a game more to the likes of checkers wouldn't you stop playing too??? At least thats how I look at it.

No matter how many 8th edition army books come out, players are still stuck with the new ruleset.

Morhgoz
21-10-2012, 00:13
Fantasy is more popular here in Finland, I think. Many stores usually have more Fantasy models in they shelfs. Nowadays Fantsy is marginally more popular than 40k, as many gamers have move out because of their studies or jobs.

Some point we had more BFG players than 40k players... :D And I still got more BFG fleets than different armies in 40k and I'm planning to add few scratch build fleets soon. One of my favored GW games.

Lordcypress
21-10-2012, 00:48
Here in Terrace British Columbia, Canada. Our city has a about 25,000 people and Fantasy is by far the most popular game. I mean our local gaming store has an entire area of the store that just sells Fantasy models. One tiny little shelf has 40k on it. There aren't even any 40k tournaments, just Fantasy. This largely has to do with the fact that we have a strong Fantasy core group that promotes and runs Fantasy tournaments exclusively. 16 player tournament for a city our size is pretty good. Seeing as how the next biggest city about 6 hour drive away has a population of about 75,000 people and they only get around 25 players out to their Fantasy Tournaments. 5-7 of those players are from our city!

Now this is only my personal opinion of 40k. I find that in my area only little kids seem to play it. I believe this is for two major reasons. First the rules are much easier for them to understand and second they don't need to spend very much money to play. You only need a small squad and you're up and running. Fantasy can be played in smaller games too. But I believe Fantasy was designed for larger battles in mind.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-10-2012, 12:33
The problem with fantasy right now IMHO is they made magic TOO over the top and not enough ways to deal with it. For example almost every lore having a spell that can remove an entire unit from the table, that is DEVASTATING and you can be playing again, winning and do everything right and then just start having units taken off the table because of magic.

The very same thing CAN happen in all other phases (well, perhaps not movement), and it always relies on a combination of factors. What's more, it was exactly the same in 7th when you played against the Big Three and their 20 power dice. Now almost everyone at least gets a chance to sometimes delete units. It's no worse than fluffing attacks and being run down to some freak dice.

Giladisb
22-10-2012, 12:37
When I began during the late 2nd/5th edition Fantasy was more popular then 3rd ed came and 40K got a whole batch of new players and for a time was more popular than WHFB, but as years went on WHFB returned and remained the dominant game in my area and Croatia as a whole.

chromedog
22-10-2012, 22:39
Swings and roundabouts in my area. Ordinarily a new edition will swing the pendulum the other way - it did for 5th ed 40k (swung away from fantasy) and then 8th swung it back - but 6th ed dropped and most of the 40k players were still playing fantasy.
ATM, in my clubs WHFB has had a resurgence and 40k is on the back foot. This may not be true for the general area, but I assume there are quite a few backyard clubs that do play 40k and don't associate with any of the "regular" clubs (this would be the normal pattern. They play with their friends and don't care if other groups are out there. They don't play tourneys and don't care.) so exact numbers are hard to pin down. 40k still outsells WHFB in the local store, so I'm assuming the stock goes somewhere.

Malakai
24-10-2012, 01:32
The models are cooler. End of story. People spend more time on painting their armies then they ever do playing with them, so collecting and painting are two of the biggest parts of the hobby. Also the rank and file of fantasy doesn't allow for others to view how awesome your guy in the fourth rank third file is, how much time you spent on him. In 40K every model stands out, even Orks!

You can argue all day about which system is better, but when it comes to the models (generally speaking as there is some fantastic fantasy models) 40K not only is the better range, but each miniature looks better on the battlefield.

It also doesn't hurt that people like the background of 40K better as well.