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jeffzcubfan
11-10-2012, 01:37
I was reading the Daemon marks and I'm confused. Knowing the back story of the 4 powers, shouldn't the Daemon Prince of Khorne have Hatred versus Daemons of Tzeentch and not Slaanesh (and the reverse)?

Khorne despises all forms of magic!

Jeff

Daedalus81
11-10-2012, 01:38
Its changed multiple times. I wouldn't stress it.

CrownAxe
11-10-2012, 01:57
My understanding is that the rivalries we have now (and have been this way for a while) represent the opposites they are to each other when you view them as core concepts instead of just gods of war and sorcery and what ever.

Khorne is external emotion, inflicting his anger and hatred on to others
Slaanesh is internal emotions, seeking out new forms of pleasure for themselves.
Tzeetch is dynamic existence, constantly changing and mutating both their bodys and minds.
Nurgle is static existence, everything is on a fixed circle of life where death gives birth live in his garden and so on.

Ultimately all the gods hate each other, but the the gods that are their polar opposites garner a little more hate.

Daedalus81
11-10-2012, 02:02
Khorne is external emotion, inflicting his anger and hatred on to others
Slaanesh is internal emotions, seeking out new forms of pleasure for themselves.
Tzeetch is dynamic existence, constantly changing and mutating both their bodys and minds.
Nurgle is static existence, everything is on a fixed circle of life where death gives birth live in his garden and so on.


To state them in simpler terms : Rage, Ecstasy, Change, and Entropy.

bobafett_h
11-10-2012, 02:12
My understanding for the Khorne/Slaanesh animosity (which has been part of the fluff since at least 2nd edition) is because before the Fall of the Eldar, Khorne was apparently the strongest/most powerful of the Chaos Gods. When Slaanesh showed up, he was apparently a challenge to Khorne's power. Khorne certainly does hate magic, but the hatred towards Slaanesh is more about power and jealousy as far as I know.

On the other hand I believe that Nurgle and Tzeetch's animosity is a matter of clean vs dirty.

Kevlar
11-10-2012, 05:58
On the other hand I believe that Nurgle and Tzeetch's animosity is a matter of clean vs dirty.

More creation vs decay.

The animosity has been the same since I started playing 20 years ago.

Cheexsta
11-10-2012, 06:16
Its changed multiple times. I wouldn't stress it.
Not really, it's been this way since Rogue Trader. More recently there has been a greater emphasis that each god is willing to work with the others to bring down another that has gotten too powerful, but the hatred has always been between Khorne and Slaanesh, and Nurgle and Tzeentch.


To state them in simpler terms : Rage, Ecstasy, Change, and Entropy.
That's probably the most succinct and accurate explanation I've seen.

big squig
11-10-2012, 06:29
I thought khorne and slaanesh hated each other because the dark prince was the youngest of the gods and khorne feared it.

Harwammer
11-10-2012, 10:57
I'm sure it's always been rage vs arousal, change vs stagnation.

There has always been an idea amonst the fans that it should be strength vs sorcerty though (and I guess beauty vs monster).

Bob Hunk
11-10-2012, 11:26
Its changed multiple times. I wouldn't stress it.

No it hasn't. :)


Not really, it's been this way since Rogue Trader. More recently there has been a greater emphasis that each god is willing to work with the others to bring down another that has gotten too powerful, but the hatred has always been between Khorne and Slaanesh, and Nurgle and Tzeentch.

What he said.


There has always been an idea amonst the fans that it should be strength vs sorcerty though (and I guess beauty vs monster).

I've never heard of anyone asking for the rivalries to be changed. :)

A life of fighting and death vs. a life of pleasure and indulgence.
A life of change and mutations vs. a life of slow decay and entropy.

Makes perfect sense to me. :) There's more to Khorne than hatred of magic, and more to Tzeentch than magic, so realigning the hatreds along those lines doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus a life of pleasure can often lead to slow decay, so having Nurgle and Slaanesh oppose each other would be a bit odd. ;)

OgreBattle
11-10-2012, 12:25
Khorne is asexual, Slaanesh is flamboyant
Tzeentch is a bird, Nurgle is a frog

Lothlanathorian
11-10-2012, 12:57
This exact same topic popped up in 40K Background a day ago and was covered pretty well. Go check that one out for some very good replies.

TheDungen
11-10-2012, 13:01
khorne is the god that feeds on rage, hate and anger he hates everyone, but his main enemy has always been slaanesh not tzeentch.

the_picto
11-10-2012, 13:07
I remembered it being to do with Khorne kills for blood and glory, slaanesh kills people just to watch them die and will make it as painful and drawn out as possible. Khorne finds no glory in slaanesh's antics.

jeffzcubfan
11-10-2012, 14:15
The explainations makes sense to me so I'm not worried about it, but how do you handle the hatred issue on the battlefield now? There doesn't appear to be any restrictions stating these chaos powers will not ally (this used to be the case IIRC). I always was uncomfortable with the army list which teamed up rival powers with no consequences.

Regards,


Jeff

Lord Damocles
11-10-2012, 14:39
So don't take mixed god lists/lists with gods who hate each other.

You don't need special rules to represent your units not liking one another. If you want to restict your unit choices to match [some] background, do it. Just because you can mix gods doesn't mean that you should, or have to (while also not restricting people who want to).

Kevlar
11-10-2012, 14:51
The explainations makes sense to me so I'm not worried about it, but how do you handle the hatred issue on the battlefield now? There doesn't appear to be any restrictions stating these chaos powers will not ally (this used to be the case IIRC). I always was uncomfortable with the army list which teamed up rival powers with no consequences.

Regards,


Jeff

You also used to get bonuses for taking mono god legions. Why should you suffer penalties now when there are no bonuses? The hatred only comes in to play when the marked armies face each other.

Harwammer
11-10-2012, 16:43
Bob Hunk: Wasn't arguing that the rivalries should be changed (I like them how they are / always have been), just many fans (not me) thinks the fluff is 'wrong'.

loveless
11-10-2012, 16:46
Where did the concept of "Khorne hates Tzeentch most!" come from anyway? I suppose it's just extrapolation from "Khorne doesn't use magic"?

Khorne/Slaanesh always made sense to me, but this topic shows up a lot.

jeffzcubfan
11-10-2012, 17:02
Where did the concept of "Khorne hates Tzeentch most!" come from anyway? I suppose it's just extrapolation from "Khorne doesn't use magic"?

Khorne/Slaanesh always made sense to me, but this topic shows up a lot.

loveless,

I have to go way back, but I think it comes from the RT days and the Realms of Chaos books. IIRC you could not have the two types in the same army together as Khorne would not share the battlefield with magic users. When I get home, I will doublecheck it. That for many equated to hatred.

Jeff

PS: I'm not saying that the fluff is unacceptable now. I'm just saying that I expected a special rule with Allies that you can't mix the types if there is hatred, or that their should be some big negative effect from doing so. Just ignoring it, shouldn't be a possibility.

Firaxin
11-10-2012, 19:53
Where did the concept of "Khorne hates Tzeentch most!" come from anyway?
I suspect it bled through from Fantasy, where Khorne lists were really really really anti-magic and magic itself is a much much much more integral part of the game.

Not that the rivalries are different in Fantasy.