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judaism
13-10-2012, 16:14
So I had this idea before I read about the new upcoming monster jugger cav, but it will go nicely with the new models. The idea behind this army is basically to hit the enemy bsb unit and break it with tremendous killing power, before anyone has time to react. And if I need static combat res I look to my core.

LORD

Chaos Lord
Khorne
GW +2 S
Shield +AS vs shooting
Jugger M7 STOMP model immune to KB
Necrotic Phy immune to char tests/death lore
Crimson Armor max -1 W at a time
Helm of Many Eyes
Dispel Scroll
Gift: Stream of Corruption

Exhalted Hero BSB
Khorne +1A ITP
GW +2 S
Shield +AS vs shooting
Juggern M7 stomp
Armor of Morslieb 4+ physical ward
Fury of Blood God 4+ spell ward

Chaos Sorc lvl 2
Tzneetch 6+ ward
Disc fly/fear/as+
Talisman of Preservation 4+ ward (3+ total)
3rd Eye (free spells)

CORE

27 Chaos Warriors
Tzneetch 6+ ward
Shield +AS
GW +2 S
Command 30
Blasted 40

(im not sure if it is legal to carry more than one type of mundane, if illegal i'd add the points into more warriors with shields)

SPECIAL

5 Chaos Knights
Khorne
Banner/Music
Swift Banner +1M

5 Chaos Knights
Khorne
Champ



I know the deployment phase is pretty funny. I place all the heroes, mage in the back in the Swift Knight unit and bum rush. The idea is to catch their most important unit, usually a bsb unit, and break them on the charge on turn 2/3. The problem the enemy will have with this army is that they are forced to think about where they should focus their fire. Good magic and shooting protection on my heroes. My sorc is flexible and pretty tough, if I don't get gateway then I can steal enemy spells. A very sturdy anvil, a little hammer and a big hammer. I'm thinking both knight units on each flank or doing something like two knights and then warriors in a lance looking formation. A super cool thing I look forward to is getting in charge range of 4 units and being able to send 3 heroes out of one unit at different targets if the situation benefits me.

As you can probably tell, I like bloody CC lol. I tried working in a hellfire sword after reading an old thread on it, but it just didnt seem to be better than +2 str. Let me know what you think.

Kayosiv
14-10-2012, 12:02
Your chaos lord build is illegal. He must be a wizard to take a dispel scroll. Also he has a 1+ armor save base, so the shield is 10 points spent on nothing. Same thing on the BSB.

It is not (always) illegal to carry more than one mundane item, but it is often useless to do so. Great weapons and shields will help them have 3+ vs shooting, but considering that you ALSO have a 4+ ward save against shooting, perhaps this is overkill. Depends on what you're going up against I suppose.

It's also iffy if more than 1 character can charge out of a unit at once. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?354918-Character-and-units

I'd skip out on the swiftness banner and get the other unit of knights the rest of its command.

Your army seems extremely small, and being completely frenzied that is really bad. With the lack of dogs or small marauder units your opponents will easily be able to both bait long charges as well as redirect over-runs from your units. Isolating and flanking knight units will be a breeze. If you have a character in each one then not so much, but then you literally only have 3 units on the board. One at a time can be isolated and destroyed while the others are fed chaff.

Your unit of chaos warriors is strong, but I think you've dedicated too many points to with with multiple equipment options as well as the magic banner. I think breaking it up into two units of 18-20 would be more effective. I think the lord is too expensive to take in an army with 2 other heroes at only 2k points. He is eating up around 400 points. I feel you should replace him with a hero and get another unit of knights if you want to keep theme, or even just get some chaff. It might not be your style to be indirect though, so I'll just say 2 units of warriors and 3 units of knights is going to be a lot scariet and harder to stop than 1 unit and 2 units, no matter how powerful your characters are.

judaism
14-10-2012, 15:44
So I do like the idea of having more units, but Marks/Commands/Banners add points quickly. I see 18 CW units on the threads, is there a good reason to run them this way? I like big blocks that I can protect with the blasted standard + tz mark, saves a lot @ a small point price. I keep running into people that play life so I usually don't even bother with MR. Would running my Lord/BSB in their own group give the illusion of more units? I mean they hit harder and have more attacks than 5 knights.

For isolating knights, yeah I see the issue. But my anvil and hero bus will probably pass on the LD 9 rerolls, so I plan on just marching right up into their faces then overrun their flees. Would there be a better unit to use instead of the 2nd unit of commandless knights, maybe trolls in range of the Lord? Warshrine?

In the WoC book there is a common magic item dispel scroll, was that errata'd out or something? Or does BRB arcane item overrule it? I see people saying that armor save doesn't go below 1, but I believe it is the actual save roll that doesn't go below that and you can have an armor class of 0/-1. So its basically just protection against organ guns or something str 5 that allows armor saves, magic bows.

I just bought two boxes of knights and the bloodcrushers. So model-wise I have 15 knights 40ish cw 20 chosen 3 crushers DP 10 dogs 5 marauder horsies. So if that helps with recommendations. Although I'm thinking about taking a box o knights and making a couple chariots.

Going to look over the list and see what I can come up with. Although after putting together the first blood crusher, i'm thinking DoC might be up my alley later. Thanks for the feedback.

zielonkak
14-10-2012, 16:30
Chaos still need numbers. In 2000 pts, a 6*3 unit of warriors is pretty strong. But adding a Hord block of 30-40 mauraders to support them makes them much stronger. Adding a unit of knights and some dogs help flanks. If you don't like the marauders then u could try a block of trolls too. I like to follow that up with a hellcannon or two depending on the points left over. As for characters, In a 2k game you spent too many points. A exalted hero can match up against most lord choices people take. Just give him good protection and he will hold up. For The Lord choice, most people take a sorcer now adays. If you have any points left for characters then add that third guy but honestly you really won't need them

Kayosiv
14-10-2012, 22:26
So I do like the idea of having more units, but Marks/Commands/Banners add points quickly. I see 18 CW units on the threads, is there a good reason to run them this way?

They can get a frontage of 6 while still getting 2 ranks. Chaos warriors in general are too expensive to rank up. You don't want to pay 200 points for models that might not get to fight, especially because chaos warriors are so killy that they often don't need the extra static combat resolution granted from the ranks. 18 is a good number that is still effective after losing some models but not so big that it focuses too many points in one place.



I like big blocks that I can protect with the blasted standard + tz mark, saves a lot @ a small point price. I keep running into people that play life so I usually don't even bother with MR. Would running my Lord/BSB in their own group give the illusion of more units? I mean they hit harder and have more attacks than 5 knights.


I would keep the BSB safe in a unit but your lord seems to be cannon proof so depending on your opponent it might be fine to run him alone. I am wary at his lack of ward save though. If nothing else, see if you can't spend his 25 points on the dispel scroll on a dawnstone instead. Hitting harder and having more attacks are very different things though, don't confuse them. Your Lord is capable of 8 wounds maximum while a unit of 5 Khorne knights with a champion is capable of 21. Your lord is stronger and more accurate so his average number of wounds is much closer to his maximum, but sometimes his strength and accuracy is overkill. When fighting toughness 3 troops with weaponskill 3, your lord's ultimate killing prowess is largely wasted and the knight units will actually perform better on average.



For isolating knights, yeah I see the issue. But my anvil and hero bus will probably pass on the LD 9 rerolls, so I plan on just marching right up into their faces then overrun their flees. Would there be a better unit to use instead of the 2nd unit of commandless knights, maybe trolls in range of the Lord? Warshrine?


Just be wary. if your BSB is in the center, and the knights stay within 12" of him on either side, that's only a 24" bubble that contains your entire army. That means you're going to have wide and very exploitable flanks on one or both sides of your battle line and there's nothing you can do about it.



In the WoC book there is a common magic item dispel scroll, was that errata'd out or something? Or does BRB arcane item overrule it? I see people saying that armor save doesn't go below 1, but I believe it is the actual save roll that doesn't go below that and you can have an armor class of 0/-1. So its basically just protection against organ guns or something str 5 that allows armor saves, magic bows.


The common dispel scroll is still an arcane item which can only be taken by wizards. Armor save does not go below 1. If you have an armor save of 0 or -1, you still only have a save of 1+. If you are fighting a strength 5 thing and you have enough armor to get to a -1 save your armor is reduced to a 3+ because 1+ before modifiers is the best you are allowed to have. This was not true when the chaos book came out in 7th edition but it is true in 8th. The only exception to this is if you have a 1+ armor save and roll a 6 on the eye of the gods table.



I just bought two boxes of knights and the bloodcrushers. So model-wise I have 15 knights 40ish cw 20 chosen 3 crushers DP 10 dogs 5 marauder horsies. So if that helps with recommendations. Although I'm thinking about taking a box o knights and making a couple chariots.

Going to look over the list and see what I can come up with. Although after putting together the first blood crusher, i'm thinking DoC might be up my alley later. Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah that's a pretty solid start. I would definately take those 10 dogs and probably also take the marauder horsemen. Chosen are too expensive for your current set up (I would probably add them at 2500) but nothing is stopping you from having 2-3 units of knights and a solid warrior block for core. Just make sure you have enough fast/maneuverable things that are cheap so you can actually get into the combats you want and crush everything in melee.

Darkminion
15-10-2012, 09:46
You say you want to get into combat with your enemies main unit and break it as soon as possible. Why would your enemy allow for this? With only three units he can simply choose how to deploy and ruin your day. A single sabretusk, warlock engineer, ratdart, harpies, etc can ruin your day. If you want to play with an obvious goal, you should have the proper support to enforce that role and you have none at this moment.

D...

SlayerMonka
23-10-2012, 14:47
I would just like to point out the BSB is illegal, you can not have both "fury of the blood god" and magical items.
Also do you think the placing GW on the warriors is worth while? You go from I5 down to ASL. I would change over to halbards instead.

Same with the BSB as well. I would take a halbard instead of a GW. Probably with the Lord. Especially if you wanted him to solo charge out by him himself. You think one bad round of combat and the lord breaks and dies. At least with the re-rolls to hit, gives you a safety net.

With the lvl 2, you could change down to a golden eye instead of the preservation, saving another reems of points.

Also you have only 3 drops and no chaff. you will pull to pieces.

Small units of marauders or dogs are needed.

judaism
23-10-2012, 17:12
Lots of good stuff here, thanks.

"Also do you think the placing GW on the warriors is worth while?"
I have them with GWs and Shields just for added versatility. Just incase I run into something with high toughness/AS.

"With the lvl 2, you could change down to a golden eye instead of the preservation, saving another reems of points"
I know I should keep him out of combat but I always end up charging into the fray with him so I'd like to have the melee protection as well.

I'll have to think about the halberd vs gw suggestion. I really enjoy the capability of wounding almost anything on a 2 but, like you mentioned, reroll to hit probably is better in the end.

I've been ultra lazy putting together my 2 boxes of knights which has translated into me being ultra lazy about editing/updating my list/post. But this is all very helpful as, ideally, I would like to have a few different styled lists I can pick from week to week without having to draw up something new everytime. Hopefully after work I can sit down and tweek the army, as long as I don't get caught up in painting.

logan054
23-10-2012, 17:14
I have a funny feeling your going to like the jugger knights alot more than chaos knights ;)

SlayerMonka
24-10-2012, 19:54
I dont know about the whole juggernaut knights. I find that chaos is a very elite army, unless you go down the told 100 marauders route. The Jugger Knights, will just make the model count even less.

Though serious dude, I would go for a 2 units of 5 dogs, its only 60pts, gives you 2 drops before you start putting down expensive units.

logan054
24-10-2012, 20:06
You could have 4 juggers knights instead of 5 chaos knights with mark of Khorne and standard, however 4 jugger knights is like being hit by 8 chaos Khorne knights, so you know... I can't see why any khorne list wouldn't include them, they fit in with the theme perfectly ;)

judaism
25-10-2012, 16:11
Updated list with upcoming release. Tried to incorporate chaff. Got a LoS roll for my BSB and Lord (finally) although it won't be around past turn 1 probably. I'll try to flatten my monster cav line to reduce incoming warmachine damage, if I have a wide enough space to fit through. I did some updates to my heroes to make knights and juggers fit into the army together with the chaff. How does it it look? I think I have a weakness against magic so my Sorc will have to snipe hardcore or I will have to hunt them down. Comments are appreciated, as always!

LORD
Chaos Lord
Khorne
Jugger M7 STOMP model immune to KB
Father of Blades any CC hits attacker on 1s
Armor of Damnation enemy must reroll cc hits
Necrotic Phylactery imm nurgle/death and char tests
Favor of the Gods

HERO
Exhalted Hero BSB
Khorne +1A ITP
GW +2 S
Talisman of Pres 4+ ward
Juggern M7 stomp

Chaos Sorc lvl 2
Nurgle
Dispel Scroll
Iron Curse Icon
3rd Eye (free spells)

CORE

24 Chaos Warriors
Nurgle
Shield +AS
GW +2 S
Command

5 Hounds

5 Hounds

5 Hounds

SPECIAL

5 Chaos Knights
Khorne

RARE

5 Jugger Knights
Music
Banner
Blasted Std

SlayerMonka
26-10-2012, 23:42
You could have 4 juggers knights instead of 5 chaos knights with mark of Khorne and standard, however 4 jugger knights is like being hit by 8 chaos Khorne knights, so you know... I can't see why any khorne list wouldn't include them, they fit in with the theme perfectly ;)

Yeah I read the same about 2 day laters.

I do like the Father of Blades/Armour of Damnation combo. Never even though of this it, let me know how it goes. Also is the favour worth while on the lord? If that jugger unit hits, should break anything within a round, so not likely to be fighting characters? Maybe swap it for the enchanted shield on the Nurgle sorcerer, gives him a 2+ sv for when the warriors see combat.
Liking the choice of Nurgle with the lvl 2. I take it you are planning regen and snipe spells as the perfect combo?

I would possible swap out the 5 knights for 2 chariots (unmarked). I know to are 10pts short, its more cannon ball targets.
Also chariots make great support units. Cant be baited into foolish charges, and another thing, if they go in with the juggers, the chariot could over run first possible blocking the juggers from running too far out of position.

I know my suggestion are pulling you away from the mono khorne list. I suppose do you want a fluffy list full of character (generally CHARGE! KILL! SMASH! CHARGE! KILL! SMASH!), which could be easy to deal with. Or a more competive list? The choice is yours?

With regards to magic question? I think a lvl 2 can save you the worst. Though you are going to have to pick one spell to really stop a turn. I have done it. Though a lvl 4 with heavens would work wonder with regular chaos knights and new shiny gore cover jugger knights.

judaism
27-10-2012, 00:47
Chariots sound like they would be a lot of fun to roll around with. I do have an extra box of knights sitting unassembled at the moment so its definitely doable. I put favor of the gods on the Lord because he already has weapon/armor/talisman so im down to a 5 point enchanted item (I think, I dont have the points list infront of me). And I really like the eye for my beast lord being a lil everchosen in his own way :) But yeah I probably should give the sorc some protection, as last game I saw him vaporized in the first round because of poor playing by me.

For Nurgle, I like buboes a lot and anything on top of that is just icing. I've realized that while spells can be game changing, chaos has a pretty good buffer against them with high armor and characteristics. So I usually just try to prevent snipes against my unprotected heroes and let the big spells go through. Although with such small units that may prove to be my downfall in some games... will have to post again in a few.. baby out of control.

SlayerMonka
28-10-2012, 00:22
Feel your pain dude, with the out of control baby. Got 3 kids myself. Yeah propably for the best to play test the list.
Remember to got have to buy all the shiny toy (both magically and baby related) you can. Some times its best to run a slightly cheaper character than having un need magically items.

I dont know about protecting the character from the snipes spells. Chaos character have every good stats propably the worst is toughness being only 4/5. Have a little faith in your characters.

judaism
10-11-2012, 19:34
Picking up the crushers today so I'll get a report this thursday.