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Glabro
14-10-2012, 02:23
I've been very annoyed about Okkam's Mindrazor of late. When the rules first came out, I naturally read the rules to mean that the strength bonus was used just for wounding rolls, not for armor save modifiers (you can trick the other guys into thinking they're dying, but you can't trick armour!). However, an errate has confirmed it does indeed modify armor saves.

In my mind this single spell ruins the dynamics of the battles, and dominates play to an unreasonable degree, because of the above. The latest WD highlighted this well, with Mindrazor being the focus of the battle (in that the other player tried to play around with it), but to no avail.

In my mind, the spell is horse dung, and wouldn't want to play with it in play (and yes, I'd have access to it) in its current state. What are your experiences with it?

NecronBob
14-10-2012, 03:01
I don't find it any worse than any of the other super-killey spells (dwellers, pit, etc.).

It probably depends on what army you play. My armies tend to be lightly armored, so str. 8 really isn't any different than str. 5. However, if you are playing Brets., I'd guess you really hate it.

That said, I don't see it get cast that often. It's useless during the first two rounds of the game. I have a scroll to get it during another round. That means I really only have to worry about it three rounds out of the six (unlike dwellers which can rip me round after round). We have a dark elf player that runs his list around it, and even with sacrificial dagger, most opponents save dispel dice to keep it away. Of course, that usually means we are eating witherings and miasmas, but something has to get through.

sulla
14-10-2012, 03:33
I've been very annoyed about Okkam's Mindrazor of late. When the rules first came out, I naturally read the rules to mean that the strength bonus was used just for wounding rolls, not for armor save modifiers (you can trick the other guys into thinking they're dying, but you can't trick armour!). However, an errate has confirmed it does indeed modify armor saves.

In my mind this single spell ruins the dynamics of the battles, and dominates play to an unreasonable degree, because of the above. The latest WD highlighted this well, with Mindrazor being the focus of the battle (in that the other player tried to play around with it), but to no avail.

In my mind, the spell is horse dung, and wouldn't want to play with it in play (and yes, I'd have access to it) in its current state. What are your experiences with it?That's not what ruins the spell in my mind. What ruins it for me is that it comboes with multiple attacks and rerolls to hit so well. The balancing factor for most high attack models is low strength or weapon skill. When toy can get 2 or 3 high strength, high weapon skill rerollable attacks on models, whole units are going to disintegrate.

Mindrazor, if it were a single attack at Ld would be far better balanced IMHO.

Personally, I don't use shadow on my DE primarily because it's such a no-brainer one dimensional way to play.

Da Crusha
14-10-2012, 06:08
no more powerful than any of the other big spells. other than that, its been out for a long time already.

DaemonReign
14-10-2012, 06:34
I don't mind mindrazor, nor the other top-spells. They keep you on your toes, add an Epic dimension to the magic phase, and make all the other (less powerfull) spells more tactical.
For the record: I also Always thought that the 'boosted' Strength should effect Armour Saves just as much as ToWound rolls. Even though without a Errata/FAQ that wasn't really what the rules said, so what-do-you-know GW actually did the right thing for a change. :p

Kayosiv
14-10-2012, 09:34
I would be much more keen on the spell if it didn't affect armor, or was more of a "you always wound on a 3+ unless you would otherwise wound on a 2+" or "your close combat attacks ignore armor saves."

As is, I fear it even more than the various "test or you die" spells for several reasons. Most spells you are safe from in combat, but mind razor can kill you when you're in combat. Most spells that would kill heroes generally have less chance to do so because characters have higher stats or multiple wounds so they won't die in one hit (curse of years) or aren't as likely to die (pit of shades) like regular troops. With Mindrazer, the strength 7+ wounds characters just as easily as it does troops.

In general, the buffs and debuffs in 8th are just too powerful, with Mind-razor being one of the worst offenders. Life's toughness buff really should have been +1/2 and beat's +1 strength and toughness should have been one or the other, with perhaps both only with the enhanced version.

Light has good buffs but they seem to be appropriately difficult to cast and heavens have cheap ones but they aren't too amazing, just useful.

Shadow and Death have excellent and probably too strong debuffs, although shadow isn't as bad because it's d3 so it "might not" be too horrendous.

The amount of swing these magical buffs/debuffs give is really astounding. When you think about it, the difference between a unit champion and a dragon is +3 strength and +3 attacks, which is what savage beast of horrors grants characters. That's nuts! +2/2 or +d3 on each would have still been an amazing buff, but +3 for both is crazy. +2 or something more toned down would have still been worth casting. Heck even +3 attacks or +3 strength would have been a really good spell.

When you look at buffs that nobody ever complains about, like Flaming Sword of Rhuin, +1 to wound is a good bonus, especially because it grants flaming attacks which is cool. At an 8+ it seems pretty reasonable to get on 2 magic dice and while it won't completely swing a fight, it might be enough to tip the scales with a few more wounds or to stop regeneration when you really need it. It's a perfectly reasonable, and still useful, magical buff, something that many of the 8th edition lores don't have. I wish the magic phase was a little less potent.

Askari
14-10-2012, 14:26
Like Kayosiv, I fear Mindrazor far more than Dwellers or Purple Sun. Dwellers will only kill half of any of my Undead units, while Mindrazored Dark Elf Corsairs will probably kill 20+, then lose another 20+ to the stupendous crumble I'll suffer for losing combat - similar for other armies, Dwellers may kill a lot, but Mindrazor kills a lot as well, and then you'll lose combat by so much you're likely to turn, run and be cut down entirely (as the Mindrazored unit will probably have killed enough to negate steadfast).

I genuinely feel they looked at the spell and though "Hey, State Troops would do some real damage with this spell" and didn't give a thought about what happens when the spell is cast on 3 attack models with high initiative and hatred.

Bodysnatcher
14-10-2012, 14:34
However it does give weedy units a chance againt armoured monstrosities, it's difficult to cast and is usually a magnet for all kinds of dispell shenangians.

BlackPawl
14-10-2012, 15:52
I don't fear mindrazor - if my slaves get hit from S5 or S8 troops - it did not matter. ;)

But as other said it depends on the army, but that's the same with all other spells too, or? I fear Flaming Swords more because State troops (helbadiers) can now wound my Hellpit on a 4+ without a regenation save (or get hit with a flaming empire cannon with outomatic wounding and no save).

Some armies fear the metal lore spells more (chaos warrior, brets and empire knights), but that did not mean that this lore and it spells should be banned, or?

Askari
14-10-2012, 15:58
Some armies fear the metal lore spells more (chaos warrior, brets and empire knights), but that did not mean that this lore and it spells should be banned, or?

There isn't a unit in the game that isn't afraid of Mindrazored multiple attack infantry with re-rolls to hit (assume at least one magical attack in there, you pedantic lot you). There's plenty that don't give two hoots about Searing Doom.

Lance Tankmen
14-10-2012, 16:10
my men@arms arent afraid of mindrazor

Kyte
14-10-2012, 16:14
I once used a shadow Fimir to cast Mindrazor on my Skavenslaves in a Storm of Magic game just to be able to say I've pulled off the worst tactical manoeuvre in Warhammer...

The bearded one
14-10-2012, 16:32
I don't fear mindrazor because my slann steals all 6's rolled to cast :p


I did end up at the receiving end once, when there was a combat at the far side of the table far away from the slann, with 30 frenzied corsairs with the attack buff from the cauldron of blood fighting a unit of saurus. That's 60 attacks rerolling to hit on 3's and wounding on 2's with only a parry allowed. Needless to say nothing survived.

T10
14-10-2012, 17:37
Like Kayosiv, I fear Mindrazor far more than Dwellers or Purple Sun. Dwellers will only kill half of any of my Undead units, while Mindrazored Dark Elf Corsairs will probably kill 20+, then lose another 20+ to the stupendous crumble I'll suffer for losing combat - similar for other armies, Dwellers may kill a lot, but Mindrazor kills a lot as well, and then you'll lose combat by so much you're likely to turn, run and be cut down entirely (as the Mindrazored unit will probably have killed enough to negate steadfast).

I genuinely feel they looked at the spell and though "Hey, State Troops would do some real damage with this spell" and didn't give a thought about what happens when the spell is cast on 3 attack models with high initiative and hatred.

I agree whole-heartedly. Sure, sometimes it doesn't matter if you are fighting against S5 or S8 since you've only got T3 and a 5+ armour save. But I dare say that is not a fair consideration: Any target of Mindrazor is one that is going to benefit from it, and the benenfit is nearly always 2+ to wound with no armour save allowed.

-T10

vinny t
14-10-2012, 17:41
I dislike Mindrazor more than the other spells (specifically Dwellers) because you need to kill the whole unit to get points. So while Dwellers on average will wipe out maybe half of x unit and maybe snag a character, Mindrazor will actually kill the entire unit. 60 re-rolling S8 attacks can kill 40 models in one sitting easily. So while Dwellers is more luck-based, Mindrazor is more consistent. Additionally, things like the Rune Maw can deflect Dwellers but not Mindrazor.

Also, the armies that have access to Life Magic tend to be weaker than armies that have access to Shadow. Warriors, Dark Elves, and Vampires all have access to Shadow but not Life.

Askari
14-10-2012, 18:00
Also, the armies that have access to Life Magic tend to be weaker than armies that have access to Shadow. Warriors, Dark Elves, and Vampires all have access to Shadow but not Life.

Well, in fairness to Vampires, Mindrazor is an awful spell for them. It makes many of their units actually worse in combat....

theunwantedbeing
14-10-2012, 18:34
See, I don't mind it much.

Turn 1 castings don't ruin the game
Even if you cast it irresistibly there's still plenty of chance it won't be unfairly brutal
It can't pick out my characters forcing them to take an unfairly high risk 1d6 test that they have no protection from
Ward saves work against it
The mage that cast it doesn't get to ignore the miscast on a 2+

You get the idea :)

Kayosiv
14-10-2012, 21:50
my men@arms arent afraid of mindrazor


I don't fear mindrazor - if my slaves get hit from S5 or S8 troops - it did not matter. ;)

You got some pretty dumb opponents if they're using mindrazor to win combats that would already be easily won. Then again, perhaps they wouldn't have easily won without the mind razor and would have only killed a few when they wanted to get through your cheap units faster. In which case you should fear mindrazor because it is preventing your cheap troops from accomplishing their goal; to hold units in place.

The whole issue with mindrazor is it doesn't differentiate. You can of course say that your skinks or night goblins don't care about mindrazer. Well guess what, you can say the same thing in reverse. Mindrazored units don't care about Chosen or mournfang. You cast mindrazor on some chump unit, say empire swordsman. Those empire swordsman can fight gnoblars, Longbeard's, or chaos warriors,. What's the difference? Nothing. Wounding everything on 2's. Armor is irrelevant. It's just too much a boost and makes match-ups meaningless. Part of the strategy of Warhammer is getting good matchups that favor you, but mindrazor doesn't care about matchups. The only thing it cares about (besides leadership in some choice units, mindrazored zombies are weaker than normal) is number of attacks and accuracy. A unit of 10 Witch elves should not tear apart chaos knights or dragons like they were tissue paper because they got one magical buff on them.

brynolf
15-10-2012, 00:38
Mindrazor may be a little bit nastier than the other uberspells, but in my book it's not these spells that's the problem with the magic phase. My problem is that you always always throw six dice at the uber spells, hoping for a double six, which is kind of likely. I would remove irresistible force in its current form to bring back some finesse to the magic phase. Miscast can stay, though. Because fun.

TheDungen
15-10-2012, 02:06
i use Shadows with my shadow warriors, i mean of course i do they're shadow warriors. occams is a great spell for elves who have great ld but no way to get high str attacks. then again i also field two units of shadow warriors so its not like i can be accused of power gaming.


A unit of 10 Witch elves should not tear apart chaos knights or dragons like they were tissue paper because they got one magical buff on them.

Really? cause i remember entire chaos warbands getting wiped out by elven mages and that was before the overload of character awesomeness.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-10-2012, 08:22
There's no comprehensible reason to be annoyed about Mind Razor. It's a spell that lets or helps you win combat...which is the point, intention and usage of almost all spells.



When you think about it, the difference between a unit champion and a dragon is +3 strength and +3 attacks, which is what savage beast of horrors grants characters. That's nuts! +2/2 or +d3 on each would have still been an amazing buff, but +3 for both is crazy. +2 or something more toned down would have still been worth casting. Heck even +3 attacks or +3 strength would have been a really good spell.


That's not nuts, that's magic. Beasts is not a popular lore precisely because it often only affects characters and is very hit or miss for every faction's characters that really need it to make a difference in combat. Again, there is no reason to make it weaker.



Any target of Mindrazor is one that is going to benefit from it


Irrelevant. Any target of any other spell is supposedly going to benefit from it as well, or the casting player has made an error of judgement.


You got some pretty dumb opponents if they're using mindrazor to win combats that would already be easily won.

None of their opponents do that because Mind Razor doesn't help, which is why they rightly don't fear MR. I also take exception to your tone and assessment, we're all rather smart.

You were the one who said Mind Razor is worst when cast on the most powerful elites, ie. multi-attack, high WS, ASF or re-rolling units such as Warriors or Lions. These units tend to almost always win their fights a priori unless something goes terribly awry. If casting MR on such units is dumb, why do you consider it to ruin the game when cast on such units?

Kayosiv
15-10-2012, 08:55
You don't have to be elite to have multiple attacks and re-rolls. Mindrazored free company with a warrior priest inside... really hurt.

I dislike the spell because it turns the balance of the game upside down. It does weird thing like make frenzied marauders deadlier than chaos warriors with great weapons or makes high elf spearmen deadlier than white lions, even if the white lions had the same buff on them. It doesn't affect all units equally, and while this is technically true of any augment, the disparity in effectiveness is just too great.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-10-2012, 10:27
You don't have to be elite to have multiple attacks and re-rolls. Mindrazored free company with a warrior priest inside... really hurt.


And that is a problem because...? A lot of things "really hurt", and some happen to have to do with spells.



It does weird thing like make frenzied marauders deadlier than chaos warriors with great weapons or makes high elf spearmen deadlier than white lions, even if the white lions had the same buff on them. It doesn't affect all units equally, and while this is technically true of any augment, the disparity in effectiveness is just too great.

There is nothing weird about magic tipping the scales on their head. Of course it doesn't affect all units equally, that's why it isn't always useful - and that defeats the argument that MR is broken because it is universally useful. Its usefulness is entirely dependant on the friendly and the enemy unit in question. There's nothing dumb about pointing out these facts.

Whenever my State Troops face a dozen Sword Masters I'd rather get a triple fireball through before than MR off during combat. Even though the Fireball is much more useful, I haven't seen a thread about it.

Minty
15-10-2012, 11:19
Whenever my State Troops face a dozen Sword Masters I'd rather get a triple fireball through before than MR off during combat. Even though the Fireball is much more useful, I haven't seen a thread about it.

And you never will because as useful as Fireball is (and it is), the Lore of Fire is a pretty ropey Lore overall.

Look at the most bitched about spells, Mind Razor and Dwellers... The problem with them isn't that they're good spells, it's that they're good spells in Lores with five other good spells.

Final Transmutation is a great spell (There's a lot to be said for a spell that has the same chance of killing a Star Dragon as a State Trooper, Dwellers and Mind Razor can't claim that, Final Transmutation is the great leveler and useful against everything), but it's never been the subject of much ire though, because on the whole, Metal is a (slightly) sub-par Lore.

If Dwellers or Mind Razor were in generally poor Lores with just the one stand-out spell no one'd mind. Even without their star players, Shadow and Life are the best Lores on the book - that is what makes people hate the spells.

SkawtheFalconer
15-10-2012, 11:29
It's not Mind Razor itself that I hate, but the fact that Dark Elves can roll as many dice as they have to cast it (essentially guaranteeing irresistable), which, coupled with hatred, means virtually instant death for whatever they're fighting against.

There's a huge difference between them using it, and an army like the Empire, for whom it actually seems like a very useful, pretty fair benefit.

EDIT: Before anyone points out the obvious, if an Empire player casts it on a unit with a warrior priest, fair enough. A single guy giving hatred to his unit, who can be killed to prevent the hatred working, is much less potent than an entire army.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-10-2012, 12:11
And you never will because as useful as Fireball is (and it is), the Lore of Fire is a pretty ropey Lore overall.

Look at the most bitched about spells, Mind Razor and Dwellers... The problem with them isn't that they're good spells, it's that they're good spells in Lores with five other good spells.


I would have thought the critics would have identified the real problem by now but no-one mentioned this aspect before. As far as I can see, the thread is about Okkam's MR only, not any perceived imbalance between different lores. The reasons given were that it ignores armour saves and can hurt / shine in some situations, or the problem is Dark Elves.

It's also rather questionable whether Life/Shadow are the best lores to start with.

DaemonReign
15-10-2012, 13:10
So this harping is really about Dark Elves then? Ok..

I agree no limit on casting Dice is a 7th Ed 'thing'. So is Power of Darkness. You can bet your mother such things are out when they get updated.

Aside of that I don't Think we've ever had a better Magic Phase (all things concidered), nor a better Edition in general.

Daeron
15-10-2012, 13:13
Admitted, I'm not sooo terribly experienced with 8th ed yet, but the amount of weight around the spell is quite shocking. Personally I prefer to have magic as part of a tactic, not being the tactic. With mindrazor it doesn't seem to matter what matchup there is in combat: it becomes mindrazor vs not mindrazor. In this, I feel mindrazor can gain too much weight in a game on its own.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-10-2012, 13:44
But Daeron, aren't you taking the discussion a step back again? Even the critics agreed that Mindrazor is not universally useful but highly dependant on the target and what it is fighting. Especially with a lot of T3 hordes around there will be games in which it doesn't even matter. You might be wounding on 2's instead of 3's or 4's but at what cost if your wizard explodes.

The fact that it can completely change the odds in some situations is true but we need to remember that this entails a very real chance for a disaster if the spell is actually blocked because someone went into a combat he would lose without the spell. Stupid, perhaps, but the critique was that it stands combats on their heads, so apparently such stupidity is the norm.

DaemonReign
15-10-2012, 13:46
@ Daeron:
These discussions never really cover the facettes of Magic in Warhammer.
There's just a ton of stuff that might happen each Magic Phase, and anyone planning too heavily on relying on any one spell is basically just playing Russian Roulette.
You might roll snake-eyes for Winds of Magic.
You might roll Irresistable and blow up your Wizard with that initial spell that you just cast in order to draw dispel Dice.
You might cast the Purple Sun Boosted on a bunch of Dwarves and end up having to Place the big round template right ontop of your own wizard.

Discussions like the one in this thread deal with 'specifics' and - by their own premise - tend to overlook the greater whole.
I'd say that the Magic Phase of 8th is the much needed 'joker' of the Phases, so to speak. It may or may not turn 'balance' up-side down for a critical moment.
Take away the possibility of grand things happening and you'd have to revamp just about Everything about the phase.

Don Zeko
15-10-2012, 15:27
It's not Mind Razor itself that I hate, but the fact that Dark Elves can roll as many dice as they have to cast it (essentially guaranteeing irresistable), which, coupled with hatred, means virtually instant death for whatever they're fighting against.

I'm not quibbling with the basic point, which is that DE mindrazoring is probably overpowered, but I think you're overstating how foolproof this strategy is. For one, IF is absolutely not guaranteed. The no dice limit only matters if you roll 7 or higher for winds of magic, so around a third of the time you won't have that many dice to roll in the first place. And even with 10 dice, your odds of rolling IF are barely over 50%. So it's still necessary for the DE player to draw a scroll before the relevant combat takes place to be confident that it will be successful.

The real weakness to this strategy, and one that I'm surprised so few people on warseer pick up on, is that it requires the DE unit to get the charge to be used effectively. Unless the DE player is going all-in on a deathstar build, the corsair or witch eelf unit is probably no larger that 30, and is deployed wide. If it gets charged by a strong enemy unit, it's unlikely to last long enough to have a second round of combat, and even if it does it'll lose frenzy and hatred. And if the Corsairs or Witch Elves will win against the enemy unit without Mindrazor, then why do we care how powerful the spell is? That means that Mindrazor needs to be cast on the first turn of combat, which means the DE player needs to charge. That's easy enough with a shooty army against other infantry, but against the faster, hittier armies out there it's a real problem. This is why I hate to play against Ogres.

Djekar
15-10-2012, 15:43
I agree completely with Don Zeko. So far my Skillrazor dark elves have the hardest match ups vs. Ogres or anything else universally fast.

Jim
15-10-2012, 15:49
I'm not quibbling with the basic point, which is that DE mindrazoring is probably overpowered, but I think you're overstating how foolproof this strategy is. For one, IF is absolutely not guaranteed. The no dice limit only matters if you roll 7 or higher for winds of magic, so around a third of the time you won't have that many dice to roll in the first place. And even with 10 dice, your odds of rolling IF are barely over 50%. So it's still necessary for the DE player to draw a scroll before the relevant combat takes place to be confident that it will be successful.

The real weakness to this strategy, and one that I'm surprised so few people on warseer pick up on, is that it requires the DE unit to get the charge to be used effectively. Unless the DE player is going all-in on a deathstar build, the corsair or witch eelf unit is probably no larger that 30, and is deployed wide. If it gets charged by a strong enemy unit, it's unlikely to last long enough to have a second round of combat, and even if it does it'll lose frenzy and hatred. And if the Corsairs or Witch Elves will win against the enemy unit without Mindrazor, then why do we care how powerful the spell is? That means that Mindrazor needs to be cast on the first turn of combat, which means the DE player needs to charge. That's easy enough with a shooty army against other infantry, but against the faster, hittier armies out there it's a real problem. This is why I hate to play against Ogres.

Having played a few games against DE I think the combo that is really annoying is as follows:

1) A large unit of DE Spearmen, Witch Elves or Corsairs (basically a large number of attacks)
2) High initiative means you are going first against a lot of armies and with Hatred re-rolling in the first and, in a lot of cases, only round of combat
3) Unstoppable buff from Cauldron of Blood (ie not magic so can't be dispelled) so extra attacks or maybe killing blow
4) Sorceress sits in backfield unit with Sacrificial Dagger so even a low rolling magic phase means with Power of Darkness and stabbing the gormless unit she is in offers up plenty of dice to....
5) Throw hundreds of dice at Mindrazor to ensure IF

The net result is 40-60 attacks hitting on re-rollable 3's and killing on 2's with no armour save which equals: Dead unit of anything in front of it...

Annoying to the extreme!

This will be 'fixed' when the new DE book comes round as I expect Dagger and Power of Darkness to be nerfed or removed, can only throw max. 6 dice at a spell like everyone else and Cauldron to maybe become Bound Spell so you have a chance of dispelling it rather than being a 'free auto win' button.

/Rant ;)

Jim

Don Zeko
15-10-2012, 17:05
Having played a few games against DE I think the combo that is really annoying is as follows:

1) A large unit of DE Spearmen, Witch Elves or Corsairs (basically a large number of attacks)
2) High initiative means you are going first against a lot of armies and with Hatred re-rolling in the first and, in a lot of cases, only round of combat
3) Unstoppable buff from Cauldron of Blood (ie not magic so can't be dispelled) so extra attacks or maybe killing blow
4) Sorceress sits in backfield unit with Sacrificial Dagger so even a low rolling magic phase means with Power of Darkness and stabbing the gormless unit she is in offers up plenty of dice to....
5) Throw hundreds of dice at Mindrazor to ensure IF

The net result is 40-60 attacks hitting on re-rollable 3's and killing on 2's with no armour save which equals: Dead unit of anything in front of it...

Annoying to the extreme!

This will be 'fixed' when the new DE book comes round as I expect Dagger and Power of Darkness to be nerfed or removed, can only throw max. 6 dice at a spell like everyone else and Cauldron to maybe become Bound Spell so you have a chance of dispelling it rather than being a 'free auto win' button.

/Rant ;)

Jim

Why don't you dispel power of darkness? It's never going to be cast on more than two dice, and you know that the next spell is going to be IF mindrazor FTW.

Kayosiv
15-10-2012, 19:11
Of course it doesn't affect all units equally, that's why it isn't always useful - and that defeats the argument that MR is broken because it is universally useful. Its usefulness is entirely dependant on the friendly and the enemy unit in question. There's nothing dumb about pointing out these facts.

Whenever my State Troops face a dozen Sword Masters I'd rather get a triple fireball through before than MR off during combat. Even though the Fireball is much more useful, I haven't seen a thread about it.

Bringing it back to the fireball point, fireball is useful in varying degrees. It's unbelievably useful against things like chameleon skinks and ethreal things, sort of useful against tough but expensive things like toughness 4 monstrous infantry, and not very useful against toughness 6 big stuff or high armor save models because it just isn't very likely to wound. Saying fireball is a bad spell because it can't reliably hurt empire knights very much is misleading. Saying mindrazor is a bad spell because it isn't useful to cast into combats where winning is assured is equally silly. Now I am of course not trying to say that you mentioned mind razor being a bad spell, but the point is that just because it isn't universally powerful in every situation doesn't mean it isn't too strong. The fact that it is too powerful in the situations that it is too powerful is what makes it too strong. It is too strong when it really matters, but rather weak when winning combat wouldn't be terribly important. Fireball is less useful on things you really want it to be useful on. You want that fireball to be easily able to wound that treeman, but it can't. Mindrazor becomes more useful the more you need it to be. The tougher the opposition you need a strong magic buff against, the more effective mindrazor is.

This is how I think of it. Lets say there was a spell, lets call it "Demoralization" that was a hex that made the unit targeted lose combat by 8 points regardless of combat result. This spell would not always be useful. Sometimes you are likely to win a combat by more than 8 points anyway, or sometimes a unit would be steadfast or stubborn or would wipe out any unit fighting it by the end of the combat and the spell would be a waste. That wouldn't make it a bad spell. I would wager that such a spell would be extremely overpowered because it turns the balance of the game too far in one direction. It would make all non-stubborn monsters and elite infantry worthless. In many ways, this make-believe "Demoralization" spell isn't even as powerful as mindrazor, yet in effect does near the same things. The difference is that mindrazor can effect multiple units in combat and actually removes models or wounds from the enemy as well.

The Low King
15-10-2012, 19:19
Ive never found mindrazor THAT bad, although i have had games turned around by my opponant mindrazoring a unit that then kills a couple of units.

The main annoying thing is how big a swing it causes. For example, a unit of dark elf spearelves will usually be wounding my warriors on 5s and leaving me with a 5+ armour save (even better with shield warriors and ironbreakers). Mindrazored they wound me on 2s and completely ignore my armour. No other buffing spell comes close to that, its the equivelent to +3 strength on every member of the unit.

Maoriboy007
15-10-2012, 20:31
Why don't you dispel power of darkness? It's never going to be cast on more than two dice, and you know that the next spell is going to be IF mindrazor FTW.Because then you have no dice to even try to dispel MRazor I guess.
Spells like PSun and Dwellers are worse IMO because Mrazor at least allows saves and doesn't autokill with a single hit. Mrazor has the (dubious) distinction of at least having to go through combat first, but that doesn't mean that Mrazor is balanced, they all need fixing in one way or another.
If you wanted to balance Mrazor you could cap the strength bonus and the number of attacks that benefit from the spell, even make the armour saves at the models regular strength, how about reducing the model to a single attack that can't be re-rolled at its Ld strength. Then its really good on all types of troops but less so on already elite troops.

Phazael
15-10-2012, 23:37
There isn't a unit in the game that isn't afraid of Mindrazored multiple attack infantry with re-rolls to hit (assume at least one magical attack in there, you pedantic lot you). There's plenty that don't give two hoots about Searing Doom.

My Daemons and Dryads could care less. So could my night goblins. The reverse ward save DE Lord kind of shrugs too. If I felt like dignifying that tone with a response, I would list a dozen other units that care equally less.

Mind Razor is tied with Dwellers for the hardest kill spell to cast and it requires a unit in the right position at the right time to benefit from it. In that respect, its tactically more challenging to use than any of the killer spells, like 13th, Dellers, Pit, or PSun. Its main abuses are when its put on DE (and to a lesser extend HE) multiple attack units, like Witches. These are really problems with the DE army (HE kind of suck, so who cares) and not the spell itself, since they can dagger/PoD there way to 12 dicing the spell exactly when they need it to win the game. Outside of that army, its not really that big of a deal. That is of course assuming you are not cramming all of your eggs into one basket and/or not including enough chaffe to fend off the likely Razor target. Dwellers and 13th are much bigger game breakers.

Don Zeko
16-10-2012, 03:08
These are really problems with the DE army (HE kind of suck, so who cares) and not the spell itself, since they can dagger/PoD there way to 12 dicing the spell exactly when they need it to win the game.

DE are emphatically not ensured 12 PD on command. If they try to cast PoD, you can (and should) dispel it. If not, they get 2D6+1 dice to cast the spell, so it's only 21 dice one time in 12. They have a very strong magic phase, but it's not invincible and it's not a sure thing.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-10-2012, 05:32
Final Transmutation is a great spell (There's a lot to be said for a spell that has the same chance of killing a Star Dragon as a State Trooper...)

Final TM only kills multi-wounders on a 6, so it doesn't work the same. And while auto-killing a Dragon isn't bad and has to be taken into account by the opponent, you cannot really count on it as the the caster.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-10-2012, 08:31
Having played a few games against DE I think the combo that is really annoying is as follows:


But why is this particularly annoying, Jim? A big block of Chaos Warriors with a shrine, Plague Monks + Death Frenzy and a Furnace, White Lions with or without magic, the notorious GW Grave Guard horde, a properly tailored Ogre unit or really a lot of other combinations can delete units in one fell swoop. Some use magic, some don't, some use other buffs, some don't...at least Mindrazor has a chance to fail, with all the repercussions that this entails. Of course many of these combos cost a lot of points but when you add up a horde of Corsairs, a Cauldron and the Witch with all the gadgets, it is a sizeable amount of points as well.


Bringing it back to the fireball point, fireball is useful in varying degrees. It's unbelievably useful against things like chameleon skinks and ethreal things, sort of useful against tough but expensive things like toughness 4 monstrous infantry, and not very useful against toughness 6 big stuff or high armor save models because it just isn't very likely to wound. Saying fireball is a bad spell because it can't reliably hurt empire knights very much is misleading. Saying mindrazor is a bad spell because it isn't useful to cast into combats where winning is assured is equally silly. Now I am of course not trying to say that you mentioned mind razor being a bad spell, but the point is that just because it isn't universally powerful in every situation doesn't mean it isn't too strong. The fact that it is too powerful in the situations that it is too powerful is what makes it too strong.


The problem I have with this line of reasoning is: The fact that a spell is strong and useful in many situations does not mean it is too strong either. The fact that a spell is especially useful when it is needed...hmm, yes, I would hope so. If spells were not useful when they are needed what would be the point of a magic phase? That, I'm afraid, is not a critique I can follow.

Apart from the when, the same scepticism applies to the argument that MR is too strong because it is too powerful. Aren't those terms interchangeable, and isn't this a kind of tautology?



Fireball is less useful on things you really want it to be useful on. You want that fireball to be easily able to wound that treeman, but it can't. Mindrazor becomes more useful the more you need it to be. The tougher the opposition you need a strong magic buff against, the more effective mindrazor is.


But is this really the case? I want a Fireball or any magic missile to deal with scouts and skirmishers, for example, because combat units hardly catch them, and missile weapons have a hard time targetting and hitting the buggers. Since skirmishers usually come in small numbers, the magic missile is much better in this role than against a block of 100 Gobbos. The same goes for ethereals - the more the opposition fields, the more I need this tool. It does do what I ask of it best. I think we do not need to argue that each and every spell has its very own sweet spot in which it becomes the best possible solution. We can infer, therefore, that this is a characteristic of each and every spell rather than particular to MR.

thesoundofmusica
16-10-2012, 09:23
I often run into this mentality, that battles should only be won in the combat phase and people feel cheated if they lost to anything other than simple core infantry slugging it out over several rounds, preferably using same stats and a D2 (lol).
Thats not the kind of game I want to play at least.
This is warhammer fantasy. There's a magic phase, there's a shooting phase and there's a combat phase. All three can win you the game. And they are equally valid. Get that cheated feeling out of your head.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-10-2012, 09:45
I think that goes too far and is a rather unfair depiction of the MR critique. The spell does work in combat, and it is often best used on simple core troops after all.

As I understand it, some players feel that +4 or +5 strength, unit-wide is too much, and a cap of say +3 would be better. While I do not necessarily feel the same way, this is probably one of those cases that cannot be decided universally. It's like arguing about a favourite colour. At the end of the day, it is not at all necessary to defend one's subjective choice or stance towards this. Rational debate can only carry you so far in what essentially is a personal feeling.

Rake
16-10-2012, 10:29
Ok, seriously. I understand that the prevailing logic is uber units need uber spells to deal with them. Which is not the right way to go about it. Uber units shouldn't exists. So making UBER spells that imbalance the game for the ENTIRE edition and across ALL armies just to deal with basically Skavenslaves and Chosen-stars is a bad idea. Everything else can be dealt with a combination of magic, shooting and clever play.
Even games workshop noticed this. Thats why you see no more remove model from play spells in the new army books. You see hideously powerful spells (-d3 ST - d3 T and the Maw) but no more remove from play.
As to this specific spell. It is CLEARLY more powerful than the other 2 killy spells (Dwellers, Gold, etc). Mostly because it is a force multiplier on units. A unit of DE Crosairs, State troops with a WP or high elf spearmen will wipe the floor with anything they are required to face. You dont use it on 30 White Lions. You use it on your 40 or 50 core troops that reroll to hit. And you will win the combat regardless of opponent (short of an exhalted chosenstar of tzeentch). It turns the game in one round. Dwellers will really hurt core troops and poses a huge threat to your lvl 4 mage (which can turn the game around). But your elites are safe (er) only 1/3 to 1/6 of them will die depending on strength and they will still get to do something, even if they ultimately loose. Ever had to face Dark/High elf spearmen in CC with this buff on them? Its utterly pointless.
The complete and utter ridiculousness of this spell comes when combined with its lore. Ok, mind razor didnt go off. But youre ST2 or T2 for the round. And just in case I have the most versatile and cheap debuff spell in the game... which synergizes perfectly with me remove model from play spell... Right...

Spiney Norman
16-10-2012, 10:46
I think the problem with Okkam's is that its such a no-brainer in every situation, I would have preferred it if they'd actually designed it so you had to think about where to cast it. Even PSX requires some though to use, a Lizardmen player isn't going to set one off near his saurus for example, neither are you going to send one spinning over an Initiative 5 unit. With very few exceptions Okkams makes a unit 3 times more effective in combat than it otherwise would be, and thats a little too much imho.

For example if they had made it so that the target unit used their Ld value as Str AND struck the unit they were fighting using their Ld value as Toughness that would have been epic, in most cases the value would still have been high enough to totally negate enemy armour, but it would make you think about favourable match-ups, targetting the spell at units fighting low Ld opponents etc.


I often run into this mentality, that battles should only be won in the combat phase and people feel cheated if they lost to anything other than simple core infantry slugging it out over several rounds, preferably using same stats and a D2 (lol).
Thats not the kind of game I want to play at least.
This is warhammer fantasy. There's a magic phase, there's a shooting phase and there's a combat phase. All three can win you the game. And they are equally valid. Get that cheated feeling out of your head.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose, I find it rather disappointing that the battle can be won in any one phase, I'd much prefer it if the system was designed so that battles were won by combining performance in several game phases to get the win. Spells that nullify entire units, and shooting that scours the enemy off the table from the other side of the board is depressingly tedious to play against, as is that deathstar that charges into combat and munches through everything you throw at it.

Thinning units out with DD magic and shooting, then charging them with magically buffed troops to finish them off is much more my style.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-10-2012, 11:03
But Rake, that makes little sense. You and I and everyone here can deal with Skavenslaves and Chosen Stars or other units by using a combination of the tools available to us. Why then would you call a combination of such tools imbalancing? What IS the difference between WP-led, buggy- and magically buffed State Troops versus WP-led, buggy- and magically buffed State Troops, this time with MR when the net result of all that buffing is a solid win in one round? You're successfully "dealing with" a problematic unit in both cases, not?

Of course there are many powerful combos out there. As long as everyone has access to them and as long as they, in turn, can be dealt with, I don't see much of an imbalance. Cauldrons, Shrines, Corpse Carts, mages, priests, all can be killed. A Mindrazored horde can be defeated by being flanked, or their impact reduced with diverters or stuff that makes them ASL.

Is Mindrazor really the problem or does it go deeper? You assume that this spell is wasted on White Lion-class elites, and rightly so but this only serves to illuminate the illogical premises: White Lion-class elites intrinsically have these effects, that's why no-one casts the spell on them. Taking away MR is not going to change anything fundamentally, a different game with no such elites would. And if people can deal with WL, then surely they can deal with crappier units that rely on a series of other pieces to all fall into place flawlessly!

Seriously, you're describing the usage of the spell when you say it will be cast on the ideal unit. Uhm, erh, I'm sorry, but what critique is that?!? Do you actually expect people to cast spells on units not suited for it?

And no, MR does not at all turn a game in one round. It *can* happen, and it can happen with a regular fight, or it can happen with a cannon, but it isn't some kind of automatic process. In fact, I believe I have been subject to MR exactly once in the last 50 games. On the other hand, DE Spearmen with an assassin massacred my State Troops with a WP, too, even completely without any buff. After abandoning the big spells and White Lion-class elites, shall we perhaps get rid of them too?

Lord Solar Plexus
16-10-2012, 11:19
I think the problem with Okkam's is that its such a no-brainer in every situation


Every situation? Like...when you didn't get it? Or when you get 3 PD? Or when you fail to cast, it is dispelled? Perhaps when you have Ld 2-3? Or when you're wounding on 3's without it, increasing the unit's efficiency by 1/6? Or when you're wounding on 2's anyways, or at all those times the ideal unit is not in combat?

As I have pointed out above, and as almost all critics have agreed to, MR is not useful for every situation simply because it is not useful for every unit or opponent. Since we all agree that it is not alaways useful, it is not a no-brainer, and the problem goes poof!



I would have preferred it if they'd actually designed it so you had to think about where to cast it. Even PSX requires some though to use, a Lizardmen player isn't going to set one off near his saurus for example, neither are you going to send one spinning over an Initiative 5 unit. With very few exceptions Okkams makes a unit 3 times more effective in combat than it otherwise would be, and thats a little too much imho.


Hmm. I don't quite see how looking at a unit's Initiative value already qualifies as putting thought into the use of a spell. How in the world is that more intellectually taxing than to decide which unit to cast MR on (or a Fireball, or Glittering Scales...)? In each and every case, we're trying to make the best use out of magic by judging some stats, and that's about it.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose, too, since as I also pointed out, this is a matter of subjective preference closed to rational observation but I don't see how combining the use of movement, combat prowess and magic can be criticized by preferring the combination of several phases ...



Thinning units out with DD magic and shooting, then charging them with magically buffed troops to finish them off is much more my style.


Shooting Repeater Crossbows, throwing some magic missiles, and then charging with mindrazored Corsairs completely fits this description...

Urgat
16-10-2012, 12:54
What I object to, regarding O's M (and any of the similar super spells), is that they set a very high level for spells, and then GW releases armybooks, and none of the new lores compare to that. It's really a two speeds thing. Those with access to BRB lores get these things, those who don't get spells with similar casting values, but nowhere near as brutal. I don't want to sound like a whiner (guess I'm going to fail big time there :p ), but that's hardly fair.

Spiney Norman
16-10-2012, 15:16
Every situation? Like...when you didn't get it? Or when you get 3 PD? Or when you fail to cast, it is dispelled? Perhaps when you have Ld 2-3? Or when you're wounding on 3's without it, increasing the unit's efficiency by 1/6? Or when you're wounding on 2's anyways, or at all those times the ideal unit is not in combat?

As I have pointed out above, and as almost all critics have agreed to, MR is not useful for every situation simply because it is not useful for every unit or opponent. Since we all agree that it is not alaways useful, it is not a no-brainer, and the problem goes poof!


You misunderstand what I was getting at, what I mean is unlike other spells which are situational when they will be useful, Okkams will always be useful with the possible exception of VC infantry and perhaps skaven slaves. Almost every unit in the game has a higher Ld than str, even Ld5 Night goblins would benefit significantly from Okkams (as does any units whose Ld is NOT lower than their str). When exactly is a boosted strength stat NOT useful in a combat situation?


Shooting Repeater Crossbows, throwing some magic missiles, and then charging with mindrazored Corsairs completely fits this description...
No, shooting rep xbows, throwing magic missiles and charging with unbuffed corsairs fits this description, if you're aiming Mind razored corsairs at a unit its as good as dead already so you'd be better off shooting/magiking something else.

Jim
16-10-2012, 15:46
I guess my main problem with it is specifically with DE.

Different armies have various +/- but in the case of DE their one weakness (not very high strength so struggle to wound/get through armour) is totally solved by the judicious application of 1 magic spell (which thanks to their older style 7th rulebook lore and magic items allows them to do more easily than say my Empire Lvl 4 Shadow wizard)...

The comparison with my State Troops is laughable if you consider the fact the elves will go first, have better WS, re-rolls in first round and buckets of attacks from Frenzy and/or the unstoppable Cauldron. The fact I may have more state troops because they cost less is irrelevant as the whole unit will probably be dead before they get to strike anyway!!!

I'm generally quite easy going about my Warhammer games and any mis-fortune that comes my way but this combo really does stick in my craw (rightly or wrongly!)

Jim

Snake1311
16-10-2012, 16:04
The biggest drawback of mindrazor is that you have to commit a unit into combat. Meaning that if your spell gets dispelled, your unit may get wiped - either in that combat, or with the countercharge.

Which makes it a lot friendlier than uncomped dwellers for example - at least there is some risk involved.

Kayosiv
16-10-2012, 19:21
The problem I have with this line of reasoning is: The fact that a spell is strong and useful in many situations does not mean it is too strong either. The fact that a spell is especially useful when it is needed...hmm, yes, I would hope so. If spells were not useful when they are needed what would be the point of a magic phase? That, I'm afraid, is not a critique I can follow.


I just happen to think that it is too useful. You obviously disagree, and that is fine, but Mind Razor is fundamentally no different than any buff or debuff you can add to a unit. Mindrazor makes your unit fight better, just like every other augment. It is however, far better than every other augment in the game. Not in every situation, but in the ones that matter the most, as in, your average unit is fighting a battle it has no hope of winning but suddenly MIND RAZOR and then it is not only winning but it is crushing the opposition. There are of course some examples of this not being true but it cannot be denied that this is very possible. The swing is too large. No other buff in the game does this with the exception of Flesh to stone which I also think is too powerful because, same reason, it swings the combats too far. Flesh to stone isn't as bad because it actually takes two spells to be really outragious and also because essentially auto not dying is not as potent as auto killing the enemy.

Mind razor would have been an extremely potent buff if it was say, always wound on 2's, or +2 strength. As is, it is more potent then it needs to be. It is much harder to cast than most augments yes, but it trumps them all to a degree that it is often worth sacrificing a wizard to get off because it can easily earn back the points lost in 2 combat rounds because it is so devastating.

Phazael
16-10-2012, 23:30
Actually, the best combat spell in the game is in the exact same lore. The signature spell obliterates it, in terms of efficiency, and its spammable. For that matter, debuffing toughness is usually just as good as mind razor and it is a hell of a lot easier to cast. Both spells help every unit fighting (or shooting at) the target unit. Mind Razor buffs one unit and is really only superior to the Toughness debuff when you are going up against the T8 monsters or things with high armor saves, like knights. Again, both of those spells are the most abusable in the DE army. And for a spell that requires six dice to go off reliably, it damn well better be powerful. Only Dreaded 13th is harder to cast.

Kayosiv
17-10-2012, 06:58
The signature debuffs weaponskill, balistic skill movement, and/or initiative. It's great no doubt and probably should go off on something much higher than a 5. Withering is very good too but is fairly difficult to cast and might only be -1, although with an average of -2 it is still very potent. It doesn't affect armor saves though so it doesn't have the same effect on cavalry and such.

There's no arguing that the entirety of the lore with the possible exception of the pendulum is really great.

GrandmasterWang
17-10-2012, 07:09
Mindrazor is certainly broken. When you have people designing an armylist specifically around 1 spell you know you have a problem.

Dark elf cheese is dark elf cheese but mindrazor us still much to powerful for its casting cost.

Ideally mindrazor would be limited to 2 attacks per model. That would reduce most of the abuse (the mind has limitations after all).

As a dwarf player I fear psun (also broken) more than mindrazor however both are far too powerful. The army book lores get it right and have rightly been toned down from the most broken rulebook spells

Rake
17-10-2012, 11:53
Maybe I didn't make my point clearly. MindRazor vs Exhalted Chosen = pointless. Mindrazor vs slaves = pointless. Those are the only UBER units i recognize in this game. The rest are good units, but with drawbacks in cost or survivability.

Mindrazor vs everything else =stupidly good. This game does not need stupidly good tools. when something is so efficient in execution it stifles lists and weakens the game overall. This is compounded in this particular case because of the overall hyperefficiency of Shadow in dominating what is still the decisive phase of the game: hand to hand. I also think the other spells fall into this list: PSoX, Dwellers, etc. Just that shadows does it better. Life comes second followed by Death (I think I hate soulblight MORE than Occam's coming to think of it).

As mentioned before even GW is slowly moving away from the EXTREMELY powerful spells and lores into the more mundane, as evidenced by the clear drop off in power of the new spell lores. Theyre good, but you will still pick a book lore if its efficiency youre after (unless youre VC in which case you might stick to vampire lore).

I feel like arguing about spell lores and their power is a little like arguing about S5 blast templates in the game. Yes, they existed before, and as a result still do but even GW is getting rid of them now. And I hear very few people complaining. Same thing is happening with the lores, but badly, because the book lores will continue to taint the magic phase for the entire edition.

Bodysnatcher
17-10-2012, 18:56
The biggest drawback of mindrazor is that you have to commit a unit into combat. Meaning that if your spell gets dispelled, your unit may get wiped - either in that combat, or with the countercharge.


THIS.

I actually find the most useful effect of mindrazor isn't always to destroy an opposing unit, but to deter a unit from charging you.

Von Wibble
17-10-2012, 20:08
The signature debuffs weaponskill, balistic skill movement, and/or initiative. It's great no doubt and probably should go off on something much higher than a 5. Withering is very good too but is fairly difficult to cast and might only be -1, although with an average of -2 it is still very potent. It doesn't affect armor saves though so it doesn't have the same effect on cavalry and such.

There's no arguing that the entirety of the lore with the possible exception of the pendulum is really great.

Agreed, though I don't like Pit either due to the scatter.

Personally I look at OM and Dwellers and can't say that one is worse than the other. Dweller's works in turn 1 for starters. OM requires combat to work - if you charge an enemy unit where you would win the combat without teh razor then all it has done is help you in case of bad luck with the dice (and the sig spell can probably do that with far greater efficiency). If you charge an enemy unit and are in the position where you need OM to win combat then you are taking a major gamble as IF is not guaranteed, but Dispel scrolls tend to be.

I find its better to use the 6 dice thrown at OM to cast 3 buff/hex spells into the combat - given the enemy has to use as many dice to dispel as you do to cast this means you should get something through anyway, and unless your troops were absolutely outclassed you will win the combat. And not have your wizard blow up from a miscast either.

Von Wibble
17-10-2012, 20:13
What I object to, regarding O's M (and any of the similar super spells), is that they set a very high level for spells, and then GW releases armybooks, and none of the new lores compare to that. It's really a two speeds thing. Those with access to BRB lores get these things, those who don't get spells with similar casting values, but nowhere near as brutal. I don't want to sound like a whiner (guess I'm going to fail big time there :p ), but that's hardly fair.

Curse of Da Bad Moon is basically your choice of PSun or Dwellers with the advantage that you can choose its effect each turn, thus removing the problem in tourney settings of rolling psun vs elves. I'd say thats pretty powerful. OG and OK did just fine with spells imo.

But in the case of TK I'd have to agree. Only thing to hope for is that its a sign the writers are realising the BRB lores are a little too good - maybe a WD update one day like they did for lores in 6th edition?

Spiney Norman
17-10-2012, 22:19
Curse of Da Bad Moon is basically your choice of PSun or Dwellers with the advantage that you can choose its effect each turn, thus removing the problem in tourney settings of rolling psun vs elves. I'd say thats pretty powerful. OG and OK did just fine with spells imo.


It really isn't, firstly the test Bad Moon requires models to take is randomly determined unless you cast the boosted version (and there are very few models in the game which have universally low I, S & T) AND most crucially it causes a WOUND when the test is failed rather than removing the failing model from the game, which means it is subject to ward saves and MR which spells like dwellers/PSX ignore, which is a pretty huge distinction, especially when it comes to multi-wound models which the spell is basically useless against. If you stack bad moon next to foot of Gork I know which I'd be casting. The goblin lore is pretty tame in general, while the Orc lore is admittedly pretty badass.

Skull storm is pretty crap as vortexes go as a str 4 hit isn't really something most armies fear, but its one redeeming feature is a potential 40" range, which means it beats most vortexes out of the park on how far it goes. And besides Tomb King generals have the Light of death from the casket to fall back on if they want a really powerful spell.

Urgat
17-10-2012, 22:23
Curse of Da Bad Moon is basically your choice of PSun or Dwellers with the advantage that you can choose its effect each turn, thus removing the problem in tourney settings of rolling psun vs elves. I'd say thats pretty powerful. OG and OK did just fine with spells imo.

Yeah, you can choose the stat... if you boost it to 25+ for casting. Other than that, Psun and Dwellers both slay outright when Curse deals one wound. For equal or slightly higher casting value? No my friend, they're not the same at all.

edit: darn, ninja'ed, and more extensively too :p

Von Wibble
18-10-2012, 19:52
It really isn't, firstly the test Bad Moon requires models to take is randomly determined unless you cast the boosted version (and there are very few models in the game which have universally low I, S & T) AND most crucially it causes a WOUND when the test is failed rather than removing the failing model from the game, which means it is subject to ward saves and MR which spells like dwellers/PSX ignore, which is a pretty huge distinction, especially when it comes to multi-wound models which the spell is basically useless against. If you stack bad moon next to foot of Gork I know which I'd be casting. The goblin lore is pretty tame in general, while the Orc lore is admittedly pretty badass.

Skull storm is pretty crap as vortexes go as a str 4 hit isn't really something most armies fear, but its one redeeming feature is a potential 40" range, which means it beats most vortexes out of the park on how far it goes. And besides Tomb King generals have the Light of death from the casket to fall back on if they want a really powerful spell.

Ah, just a wound not a kill. That does make it probably about right then, and yes, inferior to foot of gork. I don't think its right to cmolain its underpowered though- I like to think GW have seen the mistakes made with op 6th spells. Changing Dwellers andPSun to "cause a wound" rather than kill in this way would be fairer.

Light of Death - expected number of wounds is something like 3 per casting (vs ld 9 assuming 1 bounce not more). Potential is for far greater and this really scares opponents into chucking dd at the thing, but overall it really doesn't do that much for me. I'd much rather have an enemy unit at -2S and T.

popisdead
18-10-2012, 20:02
If you don't like 6th spells, don't play with deathstars then complains someone countered yours.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2012, 20:08
If you don't like 6th spells, don't play with deathstars then complains someone countered yours.

So it's okay to complain so long as you don't have a deathstar?

sulla
18-10-2012, 21:25
This will be 'fixed' when the new DE book comes round as I expect Dagger and Power of Darkness to be nerfed or removed, can only throw max. 6 dice at a spell like everyone else and Cauldron to maybe become Bound Spell so you have a chance of dispelling it rather than being a 'free auto win' button.

/Rant ;)

JimCan't see the cauldron becoming a bound spell; vampires and empire got persistent buff shrine things. I imagine it will function like one or both of them.

As for power of darkness, who knows? Perhaps it will become the lore attribute of dark magic. "Roll an extra d6 for each spell cast. On a 2-6 add that much to the casting total (may cause irresistable casting), on a 1, suffer a s4 hit with no saves." Or something similar.

On the other hand, we got mournfangs in the OK book and red fury on every combat vampire in the VC list and the silly ticking timebomb Mortis engine that suicides in t5 to turn losses into wins, so maybe GW will just leave the DE magic phase as broken as it is right now... Or give them access to lore of beasts for spammed lvl1s casting wildform on witch elves for the same result as mindraor but spread over more units per turn. ;):D

zak
18-10-2012, 22:25
The whole of the College of Magic spells could do with rewriting in my opinion. The Mind razor just being one of the many offenders. On the right army this spell is an auto win and a game breaker. Fix this and you pretty much fix 8th. Well apart from steadfast not being broken by disruption, but thats for another thread.

Spiney Norman
18-10-2012, 22:26
Light of Death - expected number of wounds is something like 3 per casting (vs ld 9 assuming 1 bounce not more). Potential is for far greater and this really scares opponents into chucking dd at the thing, but overall it really doesn't do that much for me. I'd much rather have an enemy unit at -2S and T.

You know I had to go and check I had the spell right for a moment there. It continues on a 3+, so its probably fairer to assume at least 2 jumps, possibly more, and if you initially target units outside of inspiring presence range you can do a lot more damage. Even, relatively high Ld armies are likely to roll poorly for at least one of their tests. I got it off once against a high elf army, and as the spell romped across his battle line, it dropped a few from every unit until it got to his swordsmasters and dropped 8 of them.

Light of death is really more of a psychological weapon anyway, I'm comfortable with my opponent holding back a trio of DD to counter it, especially if I don't get around to actually casting the spell that particular turn. It's still far better than skull storm whichever way you slice it.

Von Wibble
19-10-2012, 17:50
Light of death is really more of a psychological weapon anyway, I'm comfortable with my opponent holding back a trio of DD to counter it, especially if I don't get around to actually casting the spell that particular turn. It's still far better than skull storm whichever way you slice it.

Probability of 2 or more jumps is 44% I believe - 1 jump is the most likely event. Probability of 3 jumps or more is more like 30%, so I should think teh expected number of jumps is between 1 and 2. Assuming viable targets within range of each other (and usually I find if a unit is away from inspiring presense it has natural ld 9 for a charater leading it or it is too far away for any spreading). So maybe up the expected kills to 5 to account for this - still only good as a psychological weapon thanks to the potential to kill a monster and cripple a couple of support units in 1 casting.

On the lines I have quoted you on, we can certainly agree.