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View Full Version : Drach'nyen is a bit naff



Nonalyth
15-10-2012, 04:14
It seems like in the codex edition, Abaddons weapons have gotten a little terrible. Well, not the Talon of Horus, that's still absolute murder against MEQ, but Drachnyen is by far the weakest of all the daemon weapons in the codex. Sure, you might end up with a few extra attacks (assuming you don't fail hideously with a 1) but compared to the guaranteed carnage of the talon, why would you risk it?

Back in 3.5, Drach'nyen was a rather unique weapon, and Abaddon's mastery special rule meant it wouldn't rebel like other daemon weapons. He lost that rule in 4th, but the power of the weapon made up for it. Now it's been nerfed right back, and seems like little more than a way for him to get a bonus attack with the talon.

The codex refers to it as a "Daemon sword of prodigious power, making him nigh unstoppable" but I really don't see it. Thoughts?

Nurgling Chieftain
15-10-2012, 06:04
Eh, Drach'nyen kills more MEQ's (or GEQ's) on average than the Talon, and is obviously much better against 2+ armour, so it's hardly useless.

Yaro
15-10-2012, 06:12
Using Drach'nyen, Abaddon kills equal pointed characters 9 times out of 10. He is already 265 points and appropriately powerful for that point cost. Anything more would be too expensive/overkill. I get your point, the weapon is pretty hyped up in the fluff for just being AP2 and +1 strength and the standard daemon weapon +D6 attacks, but sometimes we need to compromise for game balance. If it's really bothering you, you can make pretend that the weapon gives him Eternal Warrior.

Bodacious2182
15-10-2012, 06:16
Anything that is at initiative and AP2 is quite powerful these days. Kharn wrecks everything if you can get him there. Abaddon, as long as you don't roll a 1, should do just as well.

Radium
15-10-2012, 07:03
Like others said it's a really powerful sword still. Especially now that AP2 weapons are usually unwieldy.

Chilly McFreeze
15-10-2012, 08:11
Yeah as others have said AP2 striking at initiative absolutely destroys Terminators. Also you have to remember stats are balanced for gameplay purposes and don't necessarily accurately represent the fluff, otherwise Space Marine stats would be much higher! Consider the fact that most weapons have a range of 24" that's the equivalent of about 120 feet. That is pathetic, most modern assault rifles have an effective range of at least 300 metres, but to give the weapons that range in game would unbalance it.

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Swordsman
15-10-2012, 08:45
I fielded my Abby tonight, and he pretty much soloed an opponents forces with some hot rolls, and piece-meal engagements. He's definitely not 'naff'.

EvilFuzzyDoom
15-10-2012, 09:56
Drach'nyen used to be 1 attack that auto-wounded auto-pen'd. Now it's 4-10 S5 AP2 attacks (and if you've only got 4 attacks then it's WS1).

The Talon used to just be a master-crafted lightning claw; now it's a lightning claw with S8.

I am okay with this.

Lord Damocles
15-10-2012, 09:57
We're really stretching for things to complain about now, huh? :p




The codex refers to it as a "Daemon sword of prodigious power, making him nigh unstoppable" but I really don't see it. Thoughts?
I see you sword and raise you the Staff of the Destroyer:
'The staff can unleash a searing beam of unbelievably destructive pan-dimensional energy.' - rules worse than a Melta Gun in every way :eyebrows:

Minsc
15-10-2012, 09:58
Abbadon has 5 attacks when not charging.
If you're not up against anything with a 2+ armoursave, you put 4 attacks into the talon, and 1 attack (which then becomes +D6) into the Sword.
However, with the change to daemonweapons, you will no longer have the 1/6 chance of doing absolutely nothing for a turn, which is a -huge- plus.

Kevlar
15-10-2012, 11:32
Abbadon has 5 attacks when not charging.
If you're not up against anything with a 2+ armoursave, you put 4 attacks into the talon, and 1 attack (which then becomes +D6) into the Sword.
However, with the change to daemonweapons, you will no longer have the 1/6 chance of doing absolutely nothing for a turn, which is a -huge- plus.

Pretty sure that is illegal. You pick which weapon you are going to use, the other just adds +1 attack as an extra CCW.

Minsc
15-10-2012, 11:43
Pretty sure that is illegal. You pick which weapon you are going to use, the other just adds +1 attack as an extra CCW.

You might be right, I haven't got my rulebook here so I can't check for sure.

EvilFuzzyDoom
15-10-2012, 12:58
Pretty sure that is illegal. You pick which weapon you are going to use, the other just adds +1 attack as an extra CCW.

Unless the weapon has Specialist Weapon, which both Drach'Nyen and ToH do.

So the Talon has 4 attacks base, while Drach'Nyen has 4-10 (because 0 extra attacks if you roll a 1 for Daemon Weapon - which I have now double-checked).

malisteen
15-10-2012, 13:11
Sounds sketch to me. I'll have to look, but I still think it's one or the other, not both.

Even with the more conservative interpretation, Abaddon is still a beast, and so is Drachnyen. AP2 at init is a big deal in 6e, and abby has it at a higher init than almost other infantry character. +1 Str and a mess of extra attacks is just gravy, while the talon provides an effective tool against monsters & vehicles as well as a safer alternative when fighting enemies with less than 3+ saves.

No, Abby's a bad dude. I do have complaints about the weapons, but they're not about their power. Drach'nyen is plenty powerful, but it isn't very evocative of its fluff. The 3.5 'one extra unwieldy, auto-wounding, auto-penning, armor-ignoring instant death attack' better fit the fluff of the sword that shattered the gates of the Kromarch's palace. And while such a sword would in fact be much less powerful in game than the stats Drach'nyen currently has, I'd still like it better.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-10-2012, 14:01
Unless the weapon has Specialist Weapon, which both Drach'Nyen and ToH do.Both weapons having Specialist Weapon is no different from neither weapon having it. Specialist Weapon only affects the game if you're trying to fight with one weapon with it, and one weapon without it, and then all it does is prevent one attack.

So 5 attacks for the Talon, 5-11 for Drach'nyen. And no mixing in a single turn.

Nonalyth
15-10-2012, 14:26
Drach'nyen is plenty powerful, but it isn't very evocative of its fluff. The 3.5 'one extra unwieldy, auto-wounding, auto-penning, armor-ignoring instant death attack' better fit the fluff of the sword that shattered the gates of the Kromarch's palace.

Malisteen has it. Compare it to the other daemon weapons in the codex, and it's easily the most bland of them. No special rules, or effects. It's still decent, but it lacks the flavour and feeling of a powerful daemon weapon. I mean, +1 strength, D6 extra attacks and ignoring saves. That's the exact statline of the generic daemon weapon from the last codex.

Drach'nyen is boring.

greenelite
15-10-2012, 14:30
Abbadon may be the best special character in terms of killing power in the game. The only characters I can think of that stand a good chance of beating him in a 1vs1 are the Swarmlard and Ghazghkull. Compare Abbadon's weapons to those of 'most cheesiest, uber powered, game-breaking Ward-spawn abomination' who has 4 STR 5 AP 3 attacks base.

If it still bothers you, just pretend that the sword gives him the the x2 STR instead of the lighting claw.

EDIT.

Okay, now I see that you're only bothered by the fluff. Unimaginative as it is, it's still one of the best melee weapons out there.

Gaargod
15-10-2012, 15:40
Ghazghkull generally gets his face pushed in. He's fine (more than fine!) on the turn he Waaaghs, otherwise Abaddon shreds him with decent rolling.

Swarmlord... If he has Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips especially (and giving himself preferred enemy), it's probably slightly favouring him. But that's like a 130pts+ on Abby. And Abby is a lot less likely to die to some git with a force axe!

greenelite
15-10-2012, 16:18
Ghazghkull generally gets his face pushed in. He's fine (more than fine!) on the turn he Waaaghs, otherwise Abaddon shreds him with decent rolling.

Swarmlord... If he has Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips especially (and giving himself preferred enemy), it's probably slightly favouring him. But that's like a 130pts+ on Abby. And Abby is a lot less likely to die to some git with a force axe! If I'm correct, the Waaagh lasts for a full turn, therefore, Ghazghkull would have a 2++ for two turns of combat. I think that would keep him alive long enough to krump Abbadon.

As for the Swarmlord, he has a better WS and forces his opponents to re-roll successful invul saves. Give him Iron Arm (I'm not sure if he can take rulebook powers or not) and Abbadon will have a very good reason to sweat.

Question to any one who knows the answer: do the D Eldar have any SC that could fight Horus' heir in a 1vs1 with a reasonable chance of success?

Chilly McFreeze
15-10-2012, 16:29
Asdrubael Vect used to do ok, not sure how he'd do against the current Abaddon.

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Minsc
15-10-2012, 16:57
Asdrubael Vect used to do ok, not sure how he'd do against the current Abaddon.

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He'd probably fare better of since Abaddon has fewer attacks that would instagib him (5 instead of 6-10), but one failed save is still a very dead Vect.
My money would still be on Abaddon.

TheDoctor
15-10-2012, 17:10
Question to any one who knows the answer: do the D Eldar have any SC that could fight Horus' heir in a 1vs1 with a reasonable chance of success?

An archon with a blaster...

Daedalus81
15-10-2012, 17:39
He'd probably fare better of since Abaddon has fewer attacks that would instagib him (5 instead of 6-10), but one failed save is still a very dead Vect.
My money would still be on Abaddon.

Put Abby in a unit with IoK and he'll be S6 on the charge. Splat.

Minsc
15-10-2012, 17:46
Put Abby in a unit with IoK and he'll be S6 on the charge. Splat.

Yum, Abaddon looks more and more appealing, at least in a unit with IoS or IoK. He probably couldn't care less about IoTz or IoN.

Theocracity
15-10-2012, 17:53
Put Abby in a unit with IoK and he'll be S6 on the charge. Splat.

Yeah, but give Vect 3x Disintegrator Ravagers and 3x Venoms loaded with Incubi and Abby is toast!

...the point being that you should try to keep these comparisons even.

Minsc
15-10-2012, 17:55
Yeah, but give Vect 3x Disintegrator Ravagers and 3x Venoms loaded with Incubi and Abby is toast!

...the point being that you should try to keep these comparisons even.

It's not that unlikely that Abaddon will be in a unit actually, nor is it unlikely that Vect will be in a unit as well, so the comparison was quite even.

Theocracity
15-10-2012, 17:57
And Vect would often be on the Dias, and also in a unit.

We should at least keep point costs in mind; changing the goal posts without keeping the actual game balance in mind just causes circular arguments.

Minsc
15-10-2012, 18:00
And Vect would often be on the Dias, and also in a unit.

I've seen many Dark Eldar players in action, and I've even played DE afew times myself. I would -never- even consider putting him on the Dais, and apparently that mindset was shared by all the other DE-players I've seen, because neither one of them used the Dais.

We're going offtopic now though. The point is that Abaddon will most likely kill vect, with or without furious charge.

Theocracity
15-10-2012, 18:06
Well, to be fair, not many DE players use Vect in the first place.

But if we were in this duel situation, and are allowing characters to roll deep, if I were Vect I'd definitely start on the Dais. Abbadon comes close to assault, then you turbo boost away and spend a turn or two peppering him with lances. Even if he gets the charge, he just knocks you out of your boat and you can take the charge from him so he loses FC. I'd also consider denying the challenge and letting my squad's preferred enemy buff do some damage first (if I'm remembering his rules correctly).

That may not sound like the 'who wins in a fight' situation we were trying to set up, but by allowing list-tailoring factors like the IoK it opens things up. Besides, you'd expect Vect not to play like a jerk? ;)

Kevlar
15-10-2012, 19:16
Well, to be fair, not many DE players use Vect in the first place.

But if we were in this duel situation, and are allowing characters to roll deep, if I were Vect I'd definitely start on the Dais. Abbadon comes close to assault, then you turbo boost away and spend a turn or two peppering him with lances. Even if he gets the charge, he just knocks you out of your boat and you can take the charge from him so he loses FC. I'd also consider denying the challenge and letting my squad's preferred enemy buff do some damage first (if I'm remembering his rules correctly).

That may not sound like the 'who wins in a fight' situation we were trying to set up, but by allowing list-tailoring factors like the IoK it opens things up. Besides, you'd expect Vect not to play like a jerk? ;)


I think he is just talking about how the characters would normally be fielded. You are going to see Abaddon, and 99 percent of the time he will be in a unit of chosen or terminators, loaded in a land raider. Almost assuredly with MOS and icon, or MOK and icon.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-10-2012, 19:20
...And 99% of the time Dark Eldar will laugh at that death star and lance it down from afar without a second thought, Vect or no Vect.

Excessus
15-10-2012, 20:50
Almost assuredly with MOS and icon, or MOK and icon.
And 100% he wont be, since he has all the marks he can't join units with any marks, since he has others...

Kevlar
15-10-2012, 21:55
And 100% he wont be, since he has all the marks he can't join units with any marks, since he has others...

That is a misinterpretation of the rule.

A marked character can not join a unit that has a different mark of chaos than he does.

Abaddon has every mark of chaos so he may join any unit in the codex.

Read the rule it is quite clear.

Regardless your misinterpretation doesn't really belong here. Take it to the rules forum.

Swordsman
15-10-2012, 22:02
And 100% he wont be, since he has all the marks he can't join units with any marks, since he has others...

This is probably the most absurd argument I've heard about the Chaos Codex thus far, congratulations.

Nonalyth
15-10-2012, 23:07
Here's something fun. Abaddon would appear to have Rage and Counter Attack from the Mark of Khorne.

Minsc
15-10-2012, 23:11
Here's something fun. Abaddon would appear to have Rage and Counter Attack from the Mark of Khorne.

Ofcourse he has. ;)
It's rather amusing that he's still A4, but not that I'm complaining or find it unfluffy - he should have more base attacks than your generic chaoslord.

Ozendorph
15-10-2012, 23:36
Yeah, the man is rolling with an average of ~10 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course those will all go against a no-upgrade sergeant of some sort, but that dude is DEAD ;)

Gutlord Grom
15-10-2012, 23:41
Yeah, the man is rolling with an average of ~10 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course those will all go against a no-upgrade sergeant of some sort, but that dude is DEAD ;)

Well, just take a Champion of your own (since all squads get one included at cost anyway) and let him take the duel. Then Abby will merrily eat everything else.

Ozendorph
15-10-2012, 23:43
Well, just take a Champion of your own (since all squads get one included at cost anyway) and let him take the duel. Then Abby will merrily eat everything else.

Yeah, that's pretty much the deal this edition. I'm not a fan of the way the challenge rule was executed, but at least there is generally a work-around available

Excessus
16-10-2012, 08:20
@Kevlar: Yeah, just ignore his other marks, good plan!

@Swordsman: Hahaha, you are funny! :D

Minsc
16-10-2012, 14:42
@Kevlar: Yeah, just ignore his other marks, good plan!

@Swordsman: Hahaha, you are funny! :D

You should probably read the rule yourself before you make fun of others.
It's pretty clear that Abaddon can join whatever unit he wants, because the only thing that matters is that he has the same mark as the unit. (which he does)
Basically if he wants to join a unit of Plague Marines the PM's will ask him "Do you have MoN"? If the answer is "Yes", then Abaddon is free to join.
The fact that Abaddon also has the other three marks is nice for him, but the Plague Marines couldn't care less.

Shards of Basalt
16-10-2012, 14:54
...And 99% of the time Dark Eldar will laugh at that death star and lance it down from afar without a second thought, Vect or no Vect.

This is why I love Dark Eldar.
Every time the players of other armies are all "my Dad can beat up your Dad" we just get to shrug our shoulders and go "probably, but not if my Dad shot him in the kneecaps first... which he'd probably do"

Nubl0
16-10-2012, 15:47
Or be sneaky and manipulate your local nid player into having the swarm lord duel abbadon! My money is on the swarmlord, just keep paroxysm and roll the rest on biomancy.

A.T.
16-10-2012, 15:55
Or be sneaky and manipulate your local nid player into having the swarm lord duel abbadon! My money is on the swarmlord, just keep paroxysm and roll the rest on biomancy.All or nothing with power trades isn't it?

Chilly McFreeze
16-10-2012, 16:40
All or nothing with power trades isn't it?

It is, you either take all your powers from the codex, or roll for all of them from the rulebook.

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Nubl0
16-10-2012, 17:09
well that sucks, guess I would just go with all biomancy then, although perhaps paroxysm is worth it.

Lexington
16-10-2012, 19:26
I'm honestly wondering if the Talon and Draccy don't have their S values accidentally swapped. Since when did Lightning Claws double strength, and why does one of the most powerful daemon weapons out there hit at the same strength as a Heavy Bolter?

AdamR
16-10-2012, 19:44
I'm honestly wondering if the Talon and Draccy don't have their S values accidentally swapped. Since when did Lightning Claws double strength, and why does one of the most powerful daemon weapons out there hit at the same strength as a Heavy Bolter?

There would be no point in the talon if Drach'nyen was S8 AP2 +1d6 attacks and the talon was only S5 AP3.
The way the profiles are now at least gives Abbadon a reason to have 2 weapons.

Chilly McFreeze
16-10-2012, 19:56
I'm honestly wondering if the Talon and Draccy don't have their S values accidentally swapped. Since when did Lightning Claws double strength, and why does one of the most powerful daemon weapons out there hit at the same strength as a Heavy Bolter?

It hits at the strength of a heavy bolter, but at the rate of 3 heavy bolters and the armor penetration of a power fist!

In regards to the Talon being so much better than a lightning claw, you've got to imagine it would have been pretty much an exquisitely crafted one, belonging as it did to the Warmaster of the entire Imperium. It's probably been touched by Chaos as well in the last 10,000 years seeing as it's been in the hands of its two biggest champions.

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Excessus
16-10-2012, 23:38
You should probably read the rule yourself before you make fun of others.
You should probably read it yourself before commenting, funny man...

Lexington
17-10-2012, 00:24
There would be no point in the talon if Drach'nyen was S8 AP2 +1d6 attacks and the talon was only S5 AP3.
The way the profiles are now at least gives Abbadon a reason to have 2 weapons.
Seems to me that the reason would be to not chance Daemon Weapon Brainfart. As it is, with a S8, AP3 weapon that re-rolls to wound, Abbadon can wipe the floor with most enemy squads not encased in a 2+. If the Strength values were swapped, you'd be given a choice that runs the risk/reward gamut (a rules theme of this Codex) much better than the current ones.

Gig
17-10-2012, 00:36
You should probably read the rule yourself before you make fun of others.
It's pretty clear that Abaddon can join whatever unit he wants, because the only thing that matters is that he has the same mark as the unit. (which he does)
Basically if he wants to join a unit of Plague Marines the PM's will ask him "Do you have MoN"? If the answer is "Yes", then Abaddon is free to join.
The fact that Abaddon also has the other three marks is nice for him, but the Plague Marines couldn't care less.

Wouldn't Abbadon technically give those plague marines Counter-Attack courtesy of his Mark of khorne due to the rules for counter attack requiring only 1 model with it ? Making him better in none Khorne squads since he shares half the benefits of that Mark with none khorne marked units.

Minsc
17-10-2012, 00:46
Wouldn't Abbadon technically give those plague marines Counter-Attack courtesy of his Mark of khorne due to the rules for counter attack requiring only 1 model with it ? Making him better in none Khorne squads since he shares half the benefits of that Mark with none khorne marked units.

Counter-Attack only works on the model's who have it.
It's not a USR which is transferred to the rest of the unit.

Gig
17-10-2012, 01:04
Sorry miss read the rule, when I was glancing the rulebook since it starts with the same wording the other USRs that share. My bad